Why do you believe 3rd Strike is imbalanced and overrated?

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Anonymous Mon Feb 17 02:12:23 2020 No.6208275 [Reply] [Original]

Why do you believe 3rd Strike is imbalanced and overrated?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 02:17:11 2020 No.6208284 >>6208275 too many shit tier characters parry system sucks panders too hard to niggers

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 02:20:59 2020 No.6208286 >>6208275 because im bad at most games i play i specialize in KoF (but I still suck)

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 02:22:23 2020 No.6208293 >>6208284 >too many shit tier characters explain >parry system sucks how >panders too hard to niggers so you're saying you don't like the music, right?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 02:23:25 2020 No.6208295 >>6208286 do you think KOF / Garou is easier than 3rd Strike?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 02:24:47 2020 No.6208302 >imbalanced Yes >overrated Nah, it's still a really good game.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 02:41:22 2020 No.6208316 Imbalanced yes, but it has Q so you can't hate it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 02:42:17 2020 No.6208318 >>6208316 >Imbalanced yes how so?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 02:44:22 2020 No.6208320 >>6208318 For whatever reason the game is designed such that speed is everything in that not only will you attack faster but your parries will be better too. Which means that the faster the character is, the better they are at both attack and defense.

Anonymous Mon Feb 17 02:50:44 2020 No.6208327

>>6208320
Not a bad point but it is untrue, as you have one of the slowest characters in the game, Hugo, being able to perform his huge punish grapple right out of a parry. What matters is the speed of the moves and what situations they are useable in. And in this regard, insofar as we ignore super moves, speed was used as an intentional balancing mechanic to make certain characters strong in this area to cover for their weakness or lack of ability in others.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 02:53:14 2020 No.6208330 >>6208293 >so you're saying you don't like the music, right? Some tracks take a bit long to get going

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 02:57:22 2020 No.6208336 >>6208330 On the contrary I think the majority of tracks start off very strong, regardless of whether they can keep the quality going in the next two phases: Alex / Ken, Akuma, Remy, Hugo, Sean / Oro. I'll agree for Ryu's and maybe Makoto's.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 03:16:51 2020 No.6208353 >>6208295 >do you think KOF / Garou is easier than 3rd Strike? depends who your opponent is and how much you suck

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 03:33:11 2020 No.6208368 >>6208353 so at the highest level, theoretically speaking...

Anonymous Mon Feb 17 08:21:52 2020 No.6208586

>>6208327
Hugo doesn't have of ways to get in though, so while yeah Hugo could convert from a parry into his grapple he wouldn't get this opportunity if the opponent just zones him out. The problem I personally have with 3rd strike is that while every character has the parry mechanic not every character has the same kind of opportunities to convert off of it. A good Chunners player will always have the advantage over a good Hugo player just because Chun-li has insane range, good oki, and stronger mix-up potential. I'm not saying a good player can't make up for the faults of their characters, as even subpar characters like 12 have done really well tournament wise in the hands of dudes like Yama, but it's certainly an uphill battle compared to picking Ken, Yun, or Chun.

Anonymous Mon Feb 17 08:50:06 2020 No.6208613

>>6208586
>Hugo doesn't have of ways to get in though
that's super untrue
>The problem I personally have with 3rd strike is that while every character has the parry mechanic not every character has the same kind of opportunities to convert off of it
that's a balancing mechanic
>A good Chunners player will always have the advantage over a good Hugo player just because Chun-li has insane range, good oki, and stronger mix-up potential
Chun-Li will die when cornered after 2 super grabs or 4 special grabs; you fail to see that everything she has, she needs in order to keep up, and that Hugo has all the tools he needs to win the match, if you have skill and wits.
>I'm not saying a good player can't make up for the faults of their characters
I'm saying bad players invent faults of their characters that aren't actually there. They don't understand that not everyone is supposed to play the same or have the same options. Being easier to play or figure out doesn't make a character better than one that is harder to play or carry out gameplans for.
>Yama
He's not that great of a Twelve player. He doesn't quite understand Twelve himself.

Anonymous Mon Feb 17 09:51:18 2020 No.6208679

It's not overrated, it's the best fighter ever made. It's the peak of pixel art and sprite animation as well. Parrying adds a nice skill cap though it makes everything a 50/50 bait and guessing, that's no fun. Most of the cast is shit and it does pander to niggers a whole lot, which I find very odd, and led to the game flopping super hard at the time of release, deservedly so.

Anonymous Mon Feb 17 10:36:00 2020 No.6208730
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>>6208275
>3rd Strike is imbalanced
because it is
>overrated?
I think it's underrated but it sits in that prime hipster space that games like broodwar and quake that autists use to score brownie points in dick measuring contests.
There's a severely autistic anon who endlessly posts about 3s on /v/ and /vr/ because he's obsessed with arguing about it. I'm 60% sure it's you right now.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 10:36:17 2020 No.6208731 Every fighting game with that many characters is imbalanced.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 10:39:59 2020 No.6208734 >>6208731 You can't get much worse than MVC2 and 3rd Strike is nowhere near that level.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 10:46:18 2020 No.6208746 >>6208734 Either way, both are noticeably imbalanced.

Anonymous Mon Feb 17 11:00:58 2020 No.6208764

>>6208746
You can only think 3rd Strike is imbalanced when you know enough about the game. Every character has tools, some readily apparent and others more subtle, to succeed against any other. None of them are outclassed to the extent you have in say MVC2, and none of the characters in 3S are on the level of zoopin' UMVC3 Zero.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 11:07:05 2020 No.6208768 >>6208764 What is your obsession with marvel 2? I don't care.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 11:09:13 2020 No.6208772 >>6208764 blah blah blah imbalanced game is imbalanced, doesnt matter if there are even more broken games out there

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 11:10:46 2020 No.6208775 >>6208768 I'm using it as an example of an actually imbalanced game to try and demonstrate how claims that 3rd Strike (or most other fighting games for that matter) is imbalanced are unfounded. Trying to bring in some perspective.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 11:11:48 2020 No.6208779 >>6208772 >imbalanced game is imbalanced but the thing is 3rd Strike isn't actually all that imbalanced if at all

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 12:07:17 2020 No.6208853 >>6208764 >>6208730 oh look i was right, you are the autism guy

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 14:23:11 2020 No.6209085 >>6208275 Please don't tell me OP is that guy who thinks 12 is a viable character.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 14:33:57 2020 No.6209106 >>6208613 You will never have a chunners in the corner, her supers essentially force back off. Also >Yama isn't a good 12 player Name a better 12 player

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 14:39:19 2020 No.6209115 File: 25 KB, 120x94, khan.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6209085 I want to see that guy defend khan in hftf

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 15:03:43 2020 No.6209162 >>6209106 >Name a better 12 player Don't think I can. Doesn't mean he's objectively great even if he's the greatest. SFIII: 3rd Strike - Twelve [Yama] vs Necro [Tamu] 5,339 views •Nov 29, 2011 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCguQ-PhrOo

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 15:05:13 2020 No.6209165 >>6209106 >her supers you're not supposed to let her get her supers(' meter) and Hugo has 2 specials that're dedicated to putting the foes in a corner

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 17:43:58 2020 No.6209480 >>6209085 he's the retard yeah. someone knows his name and his post history but i didn't save it

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 17:49:29 2020 No.6209491 >>6209165 You're playing theory fighter. It doesn't prove anything and never has.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 17:51:25 2020 No.6209493 >>6209480 >someone knows his name and his post history is that so?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 17:52:29 2020 No.6209496 >>6209491 You say similar things when footage is posted though, or shut up entirely.

Anonymous Mon Feb 17 18:24:15 2020 No.6209563

>>6209162
Never said he was a great player, just that a good player can make up for the faults of a bad character
>>6209165
Nigga how do you not let her get meter as hugo, this a game where where you can literally whiff punch air and gain meter. She is literally one of the few characters that can genuinely turtle in this game.

Anonymous Mon Feb 17 18:43:37 2020 No.6209598

>>6209563
>how do you not let her get meter as hugo
not optimal but this is one way

SFIII: 3rd Strike - Chun Li [Umezono] vs Hugo [Hayao]
40,734 views
•Aug 8, 2006
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbAL_822D4o

>She is literally one of the few characters that can genuinely turtle in this game.
that doesn't mean she's invincible or that this translates to her being well-equipped for playing any other way

Anonymous Mon Feb 17 19:21:37 2020 No.6209683

>>6209598
Chun was still able to get quite a bit of meter in that match, if anything had the guy not been able to predict and parry that super he would have lost. But that doesn't mean 3s is balanced, if an equally skilled chun-li fought an equally skilled Hugo, the Chun-li would likely win more than 80% of the fights. I wouldn't call third strike a solved game at all, but the fact remains that some characters are just not truly viable against another. We have 20+ years of info showing this, whether it be tier lists or tournament wins the data shows that at max maybe 6 out the 20 characters are viable, but in reality only maybe 3 make the top 8s consistently. That doesn't make 3s a bad game, it's really fun at a lot of different skill levels, but it certainly does have a major problem with balance, not mmpr the movie game bad, but still pretty bad.

Anonymous Mon Feb 17 19:42:25 2020 No.6209720
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>>6209683
>if anything had the guy not been able to predict and parry that super he would have lost
if he had been making use of taunts he wouldn't have been close to losing either
>Chun was still able to get quite a bit of meter in that match
because he wasn't playing optimally
he still won the first round without her getting a bar iirc
>that doesn't mean 3s is balanced, if an equally skilled chun-li fought an equally skilled Hugo, the Chun-li would likely win more than 80% of the fights.
this is completely meaningless parroting
>the fact remains that some characters are just not truly viable against another
why do you so adamantly believe this to be true?
>We have 20+ years of info showing this
We have ~20 years of footage showing the opposite
>whether it be tier lists
that anyone can make, including Americans who don't have a single notable Hugo, a single notable Remy, a single notable Necro... who basically admit they are not really interested in the game but with winning, and will take what is apparently the path of least resistance toward that prime goal
>the data
whose data?
>in reality only maybe 3 make the top 8s consistently
this is not even true anymore
>t certainly does have a major problem with balance
it doesn't

Anonymous Mon Feb 17 20:40:07 2020 No.6209834
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>>6209720
Jp matchup list showing Hugo, Remy, and necro consistently losing since according to you Americans dont count. Said list also shows an 8-2 win loss between chun and hugo. Once again, im not saying it is impossible to win with different characters aside from ken, chun, and yun just that at the absolute highest level of play it is near impossible. About that match you posted in particular, had he utilized taunts as you had suggested he likely would have lost. Taunts are great in theory but in reality they create too much of an opportunity for the other player to score damage. Regarding the tournament scene no longer only showing ken, chun, and yun. This can namely be attributed to 2 things, 1. the amount of players has diminished significantly, due to this we are more likely to see odd one out characters get farther from not as many chun, yun and ken players knocking them out. 2. Players that are left are more trained against chun, yun and ken leading to them being eliminated by each other. I'm really not sure why you are so adamant that 3s is balanced. An unbalanced game is still fun.

Anonymous Mon Feb 17 20:52:01 2020 No.6209858

>>6209834
>Jp matchup list showing Hugo, Remy, and necro consistently losing
I question which players they accounted for since as I've made clear and I'm sure we can all acknowledge, there is such a thing as bad players. I'd be interested to see a list spread that of course does not exist only accounting for the exceptional players for every character. As it stands, this chart would account for every player no matter how sub-par.
>Said list also shows an 8-2 win loss between chun and hugo.
Refer to above.
>just that at the absolute highest level of play it is near impossible
And I fundamentally disagree with that. But if you have no interest in pursuing that debate, so be it.
>About that match you posted in particular, had he utilized taunts as you had suggested he likely would have lost.
As you already recognized, he did a poor job of preventiing meter build. There'd have been no harm in allowing two more jab whiffs or baiting out an attempt at rushdown in order to buff Hugo's health. Chun-Li wants to be far from Hugo? Do a taunt when there's time. It takes two seconds.
>Taunts are great in theory but in reality they create too much of an opportunity for the other player to score damage.
This is untrue when players identify moments where taunting would be safe, such as when Q lands a move that wallbounces or downs the foe. Those are free. It will vary from character to character but they are not impossible nor necessarily difficult to perform.
>1. the amount of players has diminished significantly, due to this we are more likely to see odd one out characters get farther from not as many chun, yun and ken players knocking them out.
Then a question would be who is missing that shouldn't be.
>I'm really not sure why you are so adamant that 3s is balanced.
Because it's obvious to me that it is, & the oversights that've lead to claims otherwise are appalling. It's a matter of truth; I don't need more justification than that if one can agree seeking the truth is good.

Anonymous Mon Feb 17 21:04:43 2020 No.6209880

>>6209563
>a good player can make up for the faults of a bad character

No they can't. They can score wins but are still inhibited by the bad character, and only wins matter when gauging a player. If you're losing games you can otherwise win because of the character then the character is just bad.

As for the thread, balance mostly doesn't matter in fighting games so long as the game is still viable. There are games where one character is literally all it takes to win and therefor the game isn't viable (for instance, ST is unviable unless you ban Akuma, which everyone does). The only people that bitch about balance are people that don't play the game.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 21:07:34 2020 No.6209886 >>6209880 >balance mostly doesn't matter in fighting games I think it can inhibit enjoyment of the game because players aren't quite able to play how they want unless their preferred style of play lines up with the programming oversight.

Anonymous Mon Feb 17 21:08:14 2020 No.6209889
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Demanding that players win without using characters you don't like is exactly as stupid as demanding that players win without using the most powerful moves of a given character, and for the exact same reasons.

>No! You can't use super! Fight with honor!

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 21:09:50 2020 No.6209893 >>6209886 >I think it can inhibit enjoyment of the game What you really mean to say is that you never cared about the game in the first place.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 21:18:15 2020 No.6209904 >>6209889 I don't think you understand what's being said.

Anonymous Mon Feb 17 21:19:55 2020 No.6209907

>>6209893
Not wanting to have to face Snorlax, Skarmory, and Blissey guaranteed every Gen II match, and being virtually forced to lose unless I incorporate them too or particular counterpicks I don't much care for doesn't mean I dislike Gen II Pokemon battling.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 21:31:52 2020 No.6209921 >>6209907 Pokemon is barely more competitive than Smash and doesn't matter.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 21:34:35 2020 No.6209927 >>6209921 Whatevs bozo.

Anonymous Mon Feb 17 21:35:03 2020 No.6209928

>>6209893
In umvc3 my favorite team was amaterasu, viewtiful joe, and haggar, because I liked the characters and they were fun to play. They are in no way viable against the current meta of vergil, strider and doom, but rhat doesn't mean I don't care about the game. It just means its less enjoyable to me.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 21:37:25 2020 No.6209932 >>6209927 Yeah whatevs, keep blaming programming oversights as a fallback for when you get called out on bringing up balance as the first point of discussion on video games. You never cared about said games in the first place.

Anonymous Mon Feb 17 21:40:22 2020 No.6209935

>>6209928

Sounds like you never cared. Claiming at the same time that "I think they're fun to play" and "My enjoyment is inhibited" while talking about competitive play (and yes, if you're going to bring up balance, you do need to be explicitly talking about competitive play) is stupid and self contradictory for multiple reasons.

UMvC3 is actually a textbook case of what I'm talking about. Does the game just literally shit itself and fall apart because of balance? No. Then don't bitch about balance, if only because there's more important things in the game to talk about. The only people that bring up balance bring it up constantly because it's all they talk about. They don't care about the game.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 21:46:19 2020 No.6209940 >>6209935 this guy is actually 100% correct and if casuals came into fighting games with this mindset rather than a scrubby focus on "learning how to win" they might actually enjoy them for longer than labbing one combo.

Anonymous Mon Feb 17 21:47:52 2020 No.6209942

>>6209935
If you're not enjoying a competitive scene due to characters being too dominant then it is bad balancing. What you are talking doesnt happen. You are genuinely retarded if you think a game is only poorly balanced if it is unable to even be playable like that hokuto no ken fighter.

Anonymous Mon Feb 17 21:50:27 2020 No.6209946

>>6209942
>If you're not enjoying a competitive scene due to characters being too dominant then it is bad balancing.
Actually what happens is scrubs think like this and then they quit because they're bad. Mostly it's really instances of them just finding out how the game they're playing actually works and this upsets them.

Also, most of the time, said people can't figure out who is even top tier.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 21:59:31 2020 No.6209969 >>6209935 >Does the game just literally shit itself and fall apart because of balance? Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3 Top 8 - Frosty Faustings XI FFXI 2019 154,503 views •Feb 20, 2019 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqFfOLX82S8 32:01--33:06

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 22:00:53 2020 No.6209975 >>6208275 I don't and it doesn't really matter, I don't like fighting games enough to ever git gud anyway, and balance only really matters when you go serious and don't suck.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 22:04:03 2020 No.6209986 >>6209969 Is that supposed to mean something? Was that the first game you ever saw a ToD in?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 22:06:57 2020 No.6209993 >>6209975 But people say 3rd Strike is unbalanced because of the lower levels of play...

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 22:57:03 2020 No.6210067 >>6209162 >bottom tier vs. slightly less bottom tier this doesn't prove much

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 23:01:02 2020 No.6210073 >>6209993 >But people say 3rd Strike is unbalanced because of the lower levels of play... what You can see how unbalanced the game is watching tournaments.

Anonymous Mon Feb 17 23:02:46 2020 No.6210076

>>6210073

No you can't. Good players of the game won't hide that Chun is the game's best character but that doesn't hurt character diversity that much. If Chun was only as good as Ryu then Twelve would still be unviable and most of the cast would still have at least character specialists.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 23:04:33 2020 No.6210080 >>6210076 >If Chun was only as good as Ryu Are we talking about the same game here? Chun is BETTER than Ryu in 3S.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 23:06:06 2020 No.6210086 >>6210080 "If Chun was only as good as Ryu" meaning "if Chun was on the same level as Ryu, then Twelve would still be unviable" implying that weakening Chun wouldn't magically make Twelve a good character.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 23:06:32 2020 No.6210087 >>6210080 Do you know what the word "if" means?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 23:06:41 2020 No.6210090 >>6210080 Wait I misread your post. But yes, you can see that from tournaments. 12 is not viable. If he was, you'd see him at tournaments.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 17 23:08:23 2020 No.6210093 >>6210090 That doesn't mean the game isn't balanced. It's okay to have a bad character or two, it's not really possible to balance the game like what you're thinking and even if you could, it'd probably destroy the game in the process.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 18 03:20:21 2020 No.6210368 >>6210090 >If he was, you'd see him at tournaments. stupid logic, assumes fighting game players aren't morons

Anonymous Tue Feb 18 03:28:33 2020 No.6210376

One thing that strikes me is how you all never provide arguments for how a character is actually overpowered or more importantly unviable. All you can do is point to results, and then when provided with physical evidence that counters some of your assumptions, you ignore it. It's almost as if you don't actually understand what's going on that well and don't care to. You just continue to parrot what you long assumed to be true because it's now an inseparable piece of your worldview. You don't want to learn; and you're virtually incapable of it too.

Anonymous Tue Feb 18 05:18:26 2020 No.6210496
File: 499 KB, 245x240, 1570649883134.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Okay

*THIS* is the best Twelve player I've seen in 3rd Strike, and closer to how the character was meant to be played than I've seen anyone else do

12 Mania (TW) vs. Heboryu (KE)
1,432 views
•Feb 11, 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5WQGICFHmM

Anonymous Tue Feb 18 05:49:41 2020 No.6210521

>>6210496
Now I want to highlight an important state of affairs here using the comments.

Here's how most of you think when trying to justify Twelve being low tier:

>Matt
>6 days ago
>terrible damage, terrible health, and his mixups are not favorable risk/reward accordingly.
>Ken is an 8-2 match up is I recall correctly.
>If you're good at parry into lp shoryuken OS throw you've shut down almost all of twelve's pressure. The rest is just using your superior ground game.

Another wrote:
>Chris Zammit
>4 days ago
>No combos that do damage, kens just spamming shoryu here cos twelve can’t punish. The 12 player has to play 10 times harder than other players to stay alive

Summarized, the points go: "Twelve has
>terrible damage
>terrible health
>his mixups are not favorable risk/reward accordingly
>poor ground game
>no damaging combos
>can't punish dps
>Twelve is difficult

This was in response to this prompt:
>GenesisGems
>6 days ago (edited)
>How is twelve lowtier again?
>Invisibility, character copy, extreme mobility, the best unpredictability in the game and strength along with zoning.
>Shit frames is the only issue here.

Notice how neither of them touched on any semblance of acknowledging Invisibility. It doesn't register with them whatsoever. It bears no mentioning. Twelve may as well not have it. Despite having video evidence in front of them of what can happen when it's utilized effectively. They do not think about it at all. It's as if those clips never occurred & were unimportant. Despite the fact it solves *5* out of the 7 complaints they have about Twelve.

X.C.O.P.Y. unfortunately wasn't showcased here, but it's worth mentioning its worth:
>suffers half the usual damage from opponent's attacks than they do, and the attacks copied from the opponent are stronger than usual
>a taunt performed while transformed will continue to have effect after changing back, e.g., transforms into Q and taunts, retains the associated damage reduction after transforming back

Anonymous Tue Feb 18 06:16:49 2020 No.6210537

>>6210496
>>6210521
Thirdly, we have the point about "extreme mobility", which is admittedly an exaggeration. Besides his air dive and air dash, he doesn't have a lot going on mobility-wise, and you could easily argue there are many 3rd Strike characters with better mobility than Twelve.

However, his air dash is unique to him, and a strong tool in its own right. It allows him to mitigate the issue (regardless of whether or not it's true that it's an issue for him) of "poor ground game" by bypassing all the options opponents could lay out there. And that's without invisibility. *With* invisibility Twelve dissuades opponents from attempting to throw out their options to counter him due to being unable to pick with full certainty the optimal one. If they do something, but it's the wrong answer, they'll be punished. If they do nothing, they can still be punished. They do have the changing camera to help facilitate decision making, as well as certain audio cues, but for the most part, trying to stuff and counter Twelve is a guessing game the opponent can be conditioned and manipulated into continuously losing.

Twelve can can for the air dive and immediately strike out of nowhere. He can go for the fierce aerial from afar. He can go for the roundhouse aerial up close, and cross you up or not. He can go for A.X.E. (the arm whips). He can fake an aerial approach and just use any of his ground options instead, like standing fierce, baiting out an anticipatory shoryuken or whatever to punish with whatever you feel like. The options are more than enough, and destroy the idea that his low damage output and comparative lack of combo ability hold him back. His predictability almost completely evaporates because of Invisibility, and his strong air game gives foes reason to doubt they can ever be too sure of how he'll approach.

Anonymous Tue Feb 18 06:34:14 2020 No.6210550

>>6210496
>>6210521
>>6210537
And there is nothing technically difficult about this nor even intellectually difficult. The opponent is at a heavy disadvantage in these situations---which is why the developers caused Invisibility to cease when hit, and why Twelve's damage output is so relatively low compared to the rest of the cast's average options:

http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Twelve_(3S)

Even Twelve's EX specials do not do significantly increased damage. Their purpose is foremost to speed up his moves, making them lower in both start-up & recovery / endlag. Nevertheless, the damage still pales in contrast not only to other non-EX specials, but even certain normals other characters have.
Looked at in isolation, it'd appear to be massive programming incompetence, or a cruel joke carried out at a freak's expense. However, the simple matter of fact is that taunts matter in 3rd Strike, and for many characters, are as integral to their design and critical to their success as any of their special moves. Not taking advantage of them is effectively handicapping yourself in the same way.
And perhaps for no other character is this more true than for Twelve, whose design leans so heavily into frequent, consistent use of his taunt than those who forget its existence render themselves incapable of seeing him as anything other than a utterly terrible character (despite still having strong enough options without it when played with high skill).

The truth is that Twelve is not actually that difficult to play. What is difficult is forcing yourself to fight with one leg bound to your thigh. Twelve can be unpredictable. Twelve can be quick. Twelve can even be strong. And yet only *one* of these gains is tangentially recognized by most Twelve players and spectators alike. Hubris and general ignorance of the game have blinded them to obvious facts as well as easily conjured hypotheticals. And it's uncertain whether the Western playerbase at large will ever wise-up.

Anonymous Tue Feb 18 06:52:40 2020 No.6210570

>>6210496
>>6210521
>>6210537
>>6210550
The last point to address for now is Twelve's zoning. Hopefully it is not difficult to imagine how Invisibility assists him in this endeavor. And hopefully it is also not difficult to recognize how having as much range as Necro on one of his normals leaves him with at least one good tool he can be relied upon.
It's obvious how N.D.L is useful as an instant projectile; and hopefully it's becoming clear why it has such apparently pathetic damage---it comes out of nowhere, does not reveal Twelve's location, and can be used repeatedly. Imagine how often cries of how broken it was might've chimed if it was capable of much more damage than it is now with all of these properties retained and having to deal with Twelve's invisibility. Now that's not to say the damage is perfect, and the designers didn't make a mistake, but there was a clear intention and thought put into the balancing of it that goes completely unnoticed and unappreciated by the playerbase at large.

As Twelve, you have the option to rushdown, mixup, and zone, even all at once. Yet it all hinges on liberal, dedicated use of his Invisibility ability. Even if you played as most Twelve players evidently do by ignoring your super arts entirely, you could still easily accumulate wins simply by consistently outsmarting your opponent. Invisibility makes Twelve virtually impossible to parry (because the opponent is unable to see what is coming, and when it is coming), forcing reckless preemptive counter-attacks or feeble turtling.
You as the Twelve player are given a multitude of tools to safely poke away at your opponent while they are incapable of perceiving your offense, with you remaining aware at every moment of which defensive options they're attempting, constantly able to exploit this disparity in judgment. All it takes is a couple seconds of distance from the opponent.

Anonymous Tue Feb 18 06:58:50 2020 No.6210575

>>6210496
>>6210521
>>6210537
>>6210550
>>6210570
One last thing to note are his hitboxes. They're kind of weird. But that's the point. They're different tools for different situations. There's little redundancy. You are forced to be smart about what you use and when you use it. Otherwise, you provide an opening for your foe to mount their counter-offensive. There's little wrong with that. It's a trade-off a Twelve player should be willing to make in exchange for the ability to so totally control the pace of a match.

There's perhaps more to say regarding this fatally underrated character, favorably and otherwise. And again, I by no means mean to imply that he's perfectly constructed and could use no improvement; I could give you my own criticisms of his design and suggestions for improvement. But I've shown well, if you are capable of engaging in critical thought, it should be clear to you that Twelve is no awful character. He has all the tools he needs to succeed, in isolation, or---an assignment you can take upon yourself to ponder---squared against the rest of 3rd Strike's roster. It's inexcusable how often the blatant gears in his build go ignored, and if you continue to do so, or downplay their significance, you are guilty of intellectual dishonesty and probably scrub mentality in general.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 18 07:22:01 2020 No.6210601 File: 98 KB, 1200x892, 1564613476013.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6209085 >>6209480 aw shit, i remember that thread i still remember the Tosh.0 post

Anonymous Tue Feb 18 07:28:10 2020 No.6210608

>>6210601
>people who literally have no understanding of fighting games
>trying to to say that a game that has decades of commited and dedicated players
>is balanced, despite said players know all too well how unbalanced 3S is

dude get over yourself

people don't play fighting games for balance

>Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo (ST) isn't balanced

>Street Fighter: Third Strike (3S) isn't balanced

>Capcom vs. SNK 2 (CVS2) isn't balanced

>Marvel vs. Capcom 2 (MvC2) isn't balanced

>Garou:Mark of the Wolves isn't balanced

>Vampire Savior (VSAV) isn't balanced

i can literally go forever

balance isn't what makes a great fighting game

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 18 07:44:02 2020 No.6210628 >>6210608 >Street Fighter: Third Strike (3S) isn't balanced it is >Capcom vs. SNK 2 (CVS2) isn't balanced it is >Vampire Savior (VSAV) isn't balanced it has okay balance >i can literally go forever please don't try

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 18 08:42:10 2020 No.6210681 What would 3S be like without parrying or whiff attack bar building?

Anonymous Tue Feb 18 08:45:59 2020 No.6210685

>>6210681
>whiff attack bar building?
now there's something I don't think would be missed
one the one hand, its existence forces approaching, but on the other hand, it also allows a player to not have to approach
it's a double edged sword, but ultimately I don't think it brings enough good to the table whether or not it is actually a detriment

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 18 08:47:01 2020 No.6210689 >>6210685 *on the one hand

Anonymous Tue Feb 18 08:49:59 2020 No.6210695

>>6210681
>without parrying
pure zoning would be stronger because specials do chip damage
it would force players to utilize *all* of their tools more in order to succeed

Pierrot beasting with Remy in Coop Cup 2018
41,163 views
•Jan 12, 2018
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIPKG8Hp6aI
18:07, for example

I think removing parrying could still be good for the game, even though the existence of parrying is such a boon for SFIII as well. I also think fewer people would be intimidated the game.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 18 09:33:22 2020 No.6210751 because i'm a loser and can't learn to parry

Anonymous Tue Feb 18 13:58:49 2020 No.6211054

>>6208275
An imbalanced fighting game isn't inherently a bad fighting game. It mainly means the competitively viable roster is smaller than the actual roster. MvC2 has a roster of 56, but only 15(ish) are viable competitively. Folks still enjoy the game and its mechanics (for the most part).

3S is imbalanced. It's not perfect. But the mechanics are fun.

Mike Zaimont (designer and programmer of Skullgirls) made a casual attempt at balancing 3S. Although I disagree with a number of his balancing choices, his version of the game would be better than the current version.

http://mikezsez.blogspot.com/2015/12/what-id-change-for-third-strike-upper-3s.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzL3Kbf6LnA

I think 3S is somewhat overrated. but if enough tweaks to the frame data and controls were made, it'd undoubtably be my favorite fighting game.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 18 19:18:39 2020 No.6211619 .

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 18 19:42:37 2020 No.6211678 >>6211054 These are pretty bad changes overall. Some of them are just "cuz", like nerfing DP damage on Ken because in his head, the fact that two light dps do more damage than one medium dp is somehow the metric to judge those moves by.

Anonymous Tue Feb 18 21:39:49 2020 No.6211831
File: 47 KB, 297x699, stamina.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6211678
I agreed with them overall, but there were a few head-scratchers.

I'm a little skeptical about his parries and "guess parries" adjustments. I'm not inherently for or against them. Haven't thought about it enough. Same with his left-right unblockables damage nerf. It nerfs Oro and Urien a bit hard who are middling tier as is. Maybe if he buffed them more in other ways.

Chun-Li's SAII should be 1 stock instead of 2, but I'm not sure if I'd increase the bar length.

Ken's SAIII should be slowed down, but I'm not sure about the damage nerf and stock reduction.

Urien's SAI changes are peculiar.

Ibuki and Necro need more buffs.

I'd remove mashable grabs.

I'd tweak stamina levels slightly. Twelve and below. Urien and above.

I'd tweak taunts slightly as well. 3 taunts for max effects instead of 4 (even if that means reducing the effects). Remove randomization of Chun-Li's taunt effects and speed it up. Standardize them a bit.

I'm sure there are other things.

Anonymous Wed Feb 19 00:37:02 2020 No.6212157

>>6211054
mike z's balancing sucks ass

the problem with 3s is simple:

1. chun
2. yun

that's it. every character could do with some tweaks here and there, but the real issue is that the top 2 invalidate most of the cast at high levels

dream 3s balance would be a nerf to chun and yun, and then tweaks to bottom 5 (12, alex, sean, elena, necro).

maaaaybe ken could get nerfed a tad, but he's not outright broken.

Anonymous Wed Feb 19 02:35:21 2020 No.6212287
File: 31 KB, 531x960, 1580852629523.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Now, what's your fallacious reasoning for why this character is bad despite copious amounts of Kuroda footage in existence proving otherwise.

You might want to give some of it a rewatch before you respond as well.

Anonymous Wed Feb 19 05:16:34 2020 No.6212450

>>6212287
I mean, Q's gonna look good when arguably the best Q player in the world plays him. Q's pretty firmly the fourth worst character in the game. However he's not completely unviable competitively like Sean.

He has some things going for him. He has the longest stun meter along with Alex, Dudley, Gill, Hugo, and Oro. He's got a top 7 base stamina and the top overall stamina after 3 taunts. He's durable. His Super Arts hit pretty hard.

His main issue is that he has virtually no cancelable normals. Close Jab and Close Forward. Fucking awful. Which is why the optimal way of generating offense is to parry. And why Kuroda plays extremely defensively during matches. He just parks his ass in a spot and waits for the opponent to come to him. A number of his normals are negative on hit as well.

Want to play Q well? I hope you're good at parrying.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 19 05:37:33 2020 No.6212475 File: 29 KB, 600x595, 1478128329954.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6212450 >And why Kuroda plays extremely defensively during matches. Or maybe---just maybe---hear me out now---that's how the character is supposed to be played?

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 19 10:58:12 2020 No.6212836 >>6208275 Not enough emphasis on zoning or combos (outside of Genei Jin). Like SFV, the game is all about the close-up footsies/grabs game, which I despise.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 19 11:22:35 2020 No.6212872 >>6208275 >imbalanced Parrying system adds a lot of balance back. >overrated? 3S used to be criminally underrated in the early days. Upon release no one would fucking touch it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 19 11:25:53 2020 No.6212883 >>6212287 Just because Kuroda is good doesn't make Q good. It also doesn't say anything about tiers. How many 3-7 matches does Q have? How many 5-5s?

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 19 11:25:53 2020 No.6212884 >>6210608 Balanced games, lol. I dont know why these fucking retards keep bring the term up. Its like some utopia for them, where balanced fairies and totally fair unicorns roam.

Anonymous Wed Feb 19 14:10:42 2020 No.6213181
File: 2.71 MB, 854x480, 1569232237643.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6212884
I blame David Sirlin. His belief that all characters in a game should be of equal strength and usefulness (at all costs) has infected the fightan game community for over a decade.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 19 14:30:14 2020 No.6213231 >>6212475 Sound logic is offensive to me

Anonymous Wed Feb 19 15:15:57 2020 No.6213338

>>6212475
And Remy is *supposed* to be a zoning character in a game with a universal mechanic (parries) that nullifies projectiles. Just because a character is intended to have a certain playstyle doesn't mean that playstyle is good within the context of the game.

The devil is in the details.

In the case of Remy, I don't mind that he's a charge zoning character. But he has to be compensated in other ways to make up for the fact that he has a weaker playstyle. Maybe he shouldn't have a stun meter that's shorter than 90% of the roster. Maybe the damage of a normal or two is increased. Maybe the hitstun of a couple of normals are increased so they aren't negative on hit. Maybe he should get a low confirm. Maybe certain things should juggle better.

There's a reason why he's commonly considered the third worst character in the game.

Same with Q. He can be a slow tank. He just needs a couple of tweaks here and there to make him more viable competitively.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 19 15:23:37 2020 No.6213356 >>6213181 I wish I had this much fun with retro games

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 19 23:07:35 2020 No.6214330 File: 195 KB, 1200x1600, sean-3s.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] how do i get good with this mofo

Anonymous Wed Feb 19 23:18:17 2020 No.6214361

>>6212836
>emphasis on zoning
What you really mean is "not enough pure zoners" or "no zoners that I personally like". Zoning in the game works just fine, if you're smart about it. Zoning in 3rd Strike is not easy for dunces, which is a good thing.
>or combos
This is false.
You have Ibuki with perhaps the most chains in the game, Necro with a bevy of hidden juggles, Urien I shouldn't even need to remind you about, Oro with his one sets of juggles, and I could go on. To say 3rd Strike doesn't have or doesn't reward comboing enough is a bad joke.
>the game is all about the close-up footsies/grabs game
It's not. You can play however you want so long as you pick the right character for what you prefer, and you git gud enuff with them.

Anonymous Wed Feb 19 23:23:09 2020 No.6214369

>>6212883
>Just because Kuroda is good doesn't make Q good.
That's not the point.
Seeing someone who actually knows what they're doing should clearly demonstrate to you what the strengths of the character are and how well they can do on its own if you weren't already clever enough to theory craft those conclusions yourself. Continuing to insist Q or any other character is weak even after a master shows how dominating they can be IN THE RIGHT HANDS (which is what really matters when it comes to 3rd Strike---the game opens up when players git gud) is just plain silly.
>It also doesn't say anything about tiers.
Because another point is that the tiers are wrong and have been wrong for years. They've been resting on assumptions made before they saw players with skill unlock the potential of the characters they discounted and not only haven't given it a second thought, but still haven't sought out such exhibitions period.
>How many 3-7 matches does Q have? How many 5-5s?
I don't know. What I do know is if you try to play Q hyper-aggressive, you'll probably get blown up. If you play him defensively and make use of your taunts, you're in a very strong position to win against ANY character.

Anonymous Wed Feb 19 23:29:00 2020 No.6214386

>>6213338
>And Remy is *supposed* to be a zoning character in a game with a universal mechanic (parries) that nullifies projectiles. Just because a character is intended to have a certain playstyle doesn't mean that playstyle is good within the context of the game.
Are you trying to imply Remy is a bad zoner?
>In the case of Remy, I don't mind that he's a charge zoning character. But he has to be compensated in other ways
Which he is.
>Maybe he shouldn't have a stun meter that's shorter than 90% of the roster.
That's to punish bad players for sucking with him.
>Maybe the damage of a normal or two is increased.
>Maybe the hitstun of a couple of normals are increased so they aren't negative on hit.
You shouldn't be in a position for that to really matter.
>Maybe certain things should juggle better.
He has juggles.
>There's a reason why he's commonly considered the third worst character in the game.
Because stupid people look at him and see a character that's difficult to play, but then don't stop to think maybe it's not the character, maybe they just personally are not right for him. In their arrogance, they tacitly assume if they couldn't make the character work, nobody could, and the developers didn't know what they were doing when they designed the character because the character works differently than the other characters they find easier to play.
>to make him more viable competitively
In other words, easier for dumb scrubs.

Anonymous Thu Feb 20 00:54:48 2020 No.6214529

>>6214330
He's supposed to be a tricky character. He's fairly agile and has many tools that defy certainty.

He has a roll that can go past foes, which among other benefits makes him immune to being corned; he has a dash special that can grapple; both can be used for up-close fakeouts as well as approaches.
He has a flying kick that can anti-air as well as go over projectiles. Even his forward dash goes far but quick, while his back dash goes quick but short, which is good for catching foes over-extending themselves while keeping them in a punishable range.
He even has a pseudo-zoning and mixup tool that can be used in several different situations---like to force approaches, force blocks or parries, cover approaches, whatever you can think of---in his basketball taunt, which can also be faked.

To keep it simple, to be good with Sean, you have to be quick thinking, tactical, and unpredictable (which would explain why so many think he's bad---they lack these traits). With Sean, you can snuff and evade opponents' approaches and attacks. You can advance across the field quickly. You can condition the opponent into behaving how you want them to; you can trick them into acting in ways you can exploit at close range. He even has ways to get off good damage, provided you have the meter for it.

I would be more precise with my examples in this next part, but I think generalizing will be sufficient for now.

>Magu Beasting With Sean
>9,562 views
>•Apr 7, 2013
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NYhheYN9Ck
The first match against Urien is a decent showcase of his limitations. The next match against Yang is a decent showing of his strengths. I'd highlight the dash special fakes @2:25 and 2:38 to notice and emulate. 7:00 shows the basketball useful for forcing guards to mixup. 8:33-36 shows a way to rack quick damage up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0UH8vafRHY
5:58 Tokido showing the b-ball fakeout
0:48 normal combo
1:12--1:15 b-ball toss
1:31 b-ball as an anti-air

cont.

Anonymous Thu Feb 20 00:56:28 2020 No.6214532

>>6214330
>>6214529
And then here's an okay, not perfect, set of matches to watch to get a feel for what Sean can do.

>Street Fighter 3 Third Strike tfs(Alex) vs bodler(Sean)
>11,302 views
>•Sep 30, 2008
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wuj3mxBdTHw
6:29--6:33 Sean combo with basketball
7:38 & 7:58 using Sean's roll
8:42 poking with Sean

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 20 10:11:45 2020 No.6215175 >>6214361 It still leans too much towards that playstyle. I'd much rather play CVS2, which has way better zoning and combos.

Anonymous Thu Feb 20 15:57:53 2020 No.6215771

>>6214330
Get good at parrying and also work your mix-up game, Sean's entire playset revolves around defense and moving around the stage, faking out moves or making the opponent guess your actions and fail so Sean can punish with close HK into either ex tornado or more fake-outs.
His taunt is also a good tool for forcing parries/guards so use it.

Anonymous Fri Feb 21 04:08:51 2020 No.6216960
File: 35 KB, 1095x363, 2020-02-21_03-05-01.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

So, another thing I feel should have been obvious, yet escapes even the notice of someone who claimed to have been maining him for, I quote: "a dozen years, I've never figured out this matchup, it's always terrible *for me* [emphasis mine]"...

>DHC: Third Strike, Kuroda (Q) v Tominaga (Makoto) FT10
>22,113 views
>•Jan 11, 2016
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=der4aB0WPbE

...is how players are expected to go about playing Q. It's very simple: you play defensively, first of all; the source also bemoaned this fact from 9:03 - 9:10. When even a supposed character loyalist complains about Q's lack of aggressive prowess, it's clear to me most players approach the character with distorted expectations of what he should be able to do; and finding him lacking in the areas they favor most, which other characters are better suited towards, they mistakenly conclude he has little going for him period.

I could explain his many different strengths, but I will keep it simple this time: it is Endurance.

TM (Q) vs. MAKOTO (Chibacchi/Tominaga/Chance/Boss)
71,943 views
•Jan 6, 2018
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9jK_7m0sCU

The gameplan is simple. See 0:52 - 0:56, & 1:31 - 1:34: You incapacitate the foe early; Then you taunt as many times as you can get away with; And it thus becomes nearly impossible for you to lose without admitting a lack of skill.

http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Q_(3S)

For, you see, he starts off with 1200 HP, but, after 3 taunts, he finishes with 2050. You should be able to deplete the foe's health, no matter who it is, before they deplete all of yours.

It's simple.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 22 02:00:30 2020 No.6218832 >>6208353 >>6208368 you never answered this

Anonymous Sat Feb 22 03:44:04 2020 No.6218942

>>6208275
>overrated?
Not unless you go saying it's the best fighting game ever, still a very unique and good one.

>imbalanced
Without a doubt. People can bring parry, kara cancels or any of the other glitches, at the end the tiers pretty much are there because of things that work in any street fighter:
- Chun is the best because they coded her with the best frame data, her only weak move is Tensei Ranka, which is optional.
- Yun is brocken because Genei Jin gives him a few unblockable situations per round, making him always get his damage.
- Ken is top because Shippuu Jinrai Kyaku is just that good on a good character.
- Makoto has a full life bar combo, making her good.
- Urien is pretty much Aegis Reflector.
- Ryu or Yang are better than Remy or Alex because they have better moveset, with Sean being the worst because they crippled him for being so good in IIS, just to show they had learned nothing with Chun Li.

Anonymous Sat Feb 22 05:02:38 2020 No.6219046

>>6218942
The *only* one that you listed that's imbalanced and you properly identified the reason why is Makoto. The Tominaga special is not possessed by any other character. She can almost literally kill you without letting you get to play.
Yun's not on that level. Chun-Li and Ken are nowhere near that level of power.

>>	Anonymous Sun Feb 23 08:23:24 2020 No.6221191 _

>>	Anonymous Sun Feb 23 15:25:14 2020 No.6221754 >>6219046 dunno, makoto cannot dash in normally; meaning you can actually zone her out whiffing moves (that build meter) and forcing her to jump in kuroda noted this about the character, and while she's still scary that's a fairly severe limitation.

>>	Anonymous Sun Feb 23 19:59:34 2020 No.6222316 >>6208275 Because it is.

>>	Anonymous Sun Feb 23 20:04:38 2020 No.6222321 >>6216960 >For, you see, he starts off with 1200 HP, but, after 3 taunts, he finishes with 2050. You should be able to deplete the foe's health, no matter who it is, before they deplete all of yours. If it's so simple why are you not a god at 3S?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 24 04:35:39 2020 No.6223090 File: 872 KB, 720x404, americancat.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6222321 Because he's a Theory Fighter sperg who is fill of shit

Anonymous Mon Feb 24 15:07:03 2020 No.6223790

>>6219046
Nah, I'm with >>6221754, Makoto is at disadvantage before she can pull the combo against many characters, and you can win the first round before she has enough meter. If this game had meter damage like Art of Fighting she would be mid tier.
Chun-Li and Yun are still considered above her still because they always have more control of the fight.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 24 15:08:53 2020 No.6223794 >>6208275 Balance is for plebs.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 24 15:32:14 2020 No.6223824 >>6208336 you forgot the best one... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUs-ITmi_u4

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 25 03:05:01 2020 No.6224957 >>6223790 >you can win the first round before she has enough meter So the same deal with Chun-Li?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 25 03:06:52 2020 No.6224962 >>6223794 Balance means a fair fight and thus a legitimate challenge, while also allowing use of any tools that fit the player best. Imbalance creates artificial difficulty and constrains choice of playstyle, which is why it's bad.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 25 09:19:39 2020 No.6225264 friendly reminder to stop responding to 3sAutist threads

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 25 10:26:34 2020 No.6225363 >>6224962 Real sports amd fiction dont have balance.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 25 10:27:43 2020 No.6225368 >>6225264 But why did you bump it?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 25 10:28:47 2020 No.6225374 >>6225363 Real sports aren't video games.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 25 12:25:49 2020 No.6225575 >>6225363 They actually do. Each team or competitors is allowed all the same advantages as their opponents.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 25 15:05:56 2020 No.6225845 >>6210628 >>Capcom vs. SNK 2 (CVS2) isn't balanced >it is Have you even PLAYED CVS2?

Anonymous Tue Feb 25 16:10:23 2020 No.6225991

>>6225845
One of my major complaints is that weapons have hurtboxes, which is ridiculous in itself but also importantly diminishes the impact of having a weapon. I cannot for the life of me decipher whether this factors into whosoever's claiming that CVS2 isn't balanced's rationale, but for me, it is important and does take away from the game.

Nevertheless, I do think most characters are well equipped, even a lot of the ones people say are bad. It seems to me that the vast majority of Western players view everything from the perspective of A-Groove, C-Groove and K-Groove, so that a "bad" character for them is one who doesn't do well with either of those grooves. I really don't think they understand the importance of grooves and the strengths and weaknesses trade-offs they make when intersecting with each character's design. The truth is no character is well suited for every groove, and that there are characters that work better with grooves that are not "meta". Their narrow-minded way of thinking has them sleeping on alternative strategies.

It's "not balanced" from a very uncritical perspective that takes too many silly notions for granted.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 26 12:05:23 2020 No.6227851 >>6208275 not overrated

Anonymous Wed Feb 26 16:45:26 2020 No.6228347

>3rd Strike is imbalanced
This point is moot. Every retro fighting game is unbalanced. Even modern FGs with their ability to update are prone imbalance.

>Overrated
Can't disagree there. I've clocked ungodly amount of time on 3S, it's definitely one of my favorite games of all time. But when you look around the web, it's easy to see most people only name drop it for some gamer street cred.

Anonymous Wed Feb 26 16:54:05 2020 No.6228359

>>6225991
>One of my major complaints is that weapons have hurtboxes, which is ridiculous in itself but also importantly diminishes the impact of having a weapon. I cannot for the life of me decipher whether this factors into whosoever's claiming that CVS2 isn't balanced's rationale, but for me, it is important and does take away from the game.

I'm trying to understand--wouldn't that make every weapon based button be completely safe at certain distances? And are you saying that you'd be against weapons having hurtboxses in a game like, say, Granblue Fantasy Versus?

Sounds like a recipe for imbalance.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 26 16:54:57 2020 No.6228360 >>6208284 >I'm a huge pussy with no taste Fpbp

Anonymous Wed Feb 26 18:00:08 2020 No.6228525

>>6228347
>But when you look around the web, it's easy to see most people only name drop it for some gamer street cred.
True, but that doesn't mean the game is actually overrated just because a lot of people who don't know what they're talking about parrot the praises of those who are better informed.

Anonymous Wed Feb 26 18:09:38 2020 No.6228543

>>6228359
>I'm trying to understand--wouldn't that make every weapon based button be completely safe at certain distances?
The thing is that a lot of characters already have tools to compensate for not having the normals to compete with a weapon; most obviously a projectile.
If we take Haohmaru as an example of what would happen, you have a character that would be very difficult to approach. But he has his own difficulty approaching foes and whiffed attacks typically leave him fairly vulnerable. So the strategy against him would be to bait out ill-actions and force him to open himself up. You don't even need character specific abilities to do this. If your groove has a roll, a dodge, or counter-movement, you can capitalize off Haohmaru's overextensions.
It's really silly that Haohmaru gets hurt from his sword getting hit. Removing the hurtbox theoretically wouldn't make him impossible to deal with; it makes him stronger yet forces players to think more carefully about their tactics when playing against him.
>And are you saying that you'd be against weapons having hurtboxses in a game like, say, Granblue Fantasy Versus?
I would be against it for Soul Calibur.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 26 18:22:31 2020 No.6228570 >>6228525 It really depends on how you define overrated. I see your point, though.

Anonymous Wed Feb 26 18:58:19 2020 No.6228635

I think I've realized something important about 3rd Strike: it's very unintuitive and arcane. It doesn't make a lot of sense on the surface level. To most people, the game'll seem impossible to learn. It really only opens up after maybe hundreds of hours of play and most people don't want to take that long just to get good.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 26 19:06:41 2020 No.6228665 >>6228635 3rd Strike was made for people that were already deep into fighting games. It's one of the most beginner-unfriendly games in the genre.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 26 19:23:09 2020 No.6228705 >>6228635 disagree, the game is actually extraordinarily intuitive; you just need it to be your first fighting game due to how parry flips conventions on its head

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 26 23:27:04 2020 No.6229149 >>6208275 It's imbalanced but it's still a very good game on it's own right.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 02:13:40 2020 No.6229368

>>6228665
>3rd Strike was made for people that were already deep into fighting games.
This is too convenient a cliche because it glosses over a lot of what specifically makes the game so distinct and difficult. It's easy to say these things, but not so easy for people to actually back up their reasoning.

>>6228705
>the game is actually extraordinarily intuitive
It really, really isn't. Let's take two examples:

Necro: considered by a lot of pedestrians to be a bad character. In reality, he's been proven to be one of the few characters in the game capable of long juggle-based combos. Nothing about his design suggests that he of all characters would be able to do it, except for perhaps his uppercut, but even then, you have no reason to think it can combo into anything other than another uppercut or a single move of your choice.

Sugiyama (Necro) vs Koshun (Chunli)
8,698 views
•Nov 14, 2006
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U-PEDGtG7Y
@1:08

2013.04.08 SFⅢ3rd10先ガチバトル杉山 vs マツケン
6,350 views
•Jul 4, 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJZpv8QKk6k
3rd Strike sugiyama [necro] vs matsuken [ken]
@5:16

Sugiyama (Necro) vs. Ushi (Urien) SS grade!
15,951 views
•Sep 8, 2006
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v-46Y3iwcA

SFIII: 3rd Strike - Alex & Yun & Makoto vs Necro [PinoAB7]
27,308 views
•Aug 8, 2006
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51ctwBsRrsU
@3:45

necro combo collection
7,526 views
•Jan 3, 2009
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBbVIN46H2M

In other words, a character designed to be a zoner secretly has one of the best combo games in the game; and you can chain seemingly random moves to one another, and they will juggle. It is unintuitive; and arcane, because how are you supposed to know which moves will allow for juggling?

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 02:31:04 2020 No.6229380

>>6229368
>>6228705
And Twelve: another zoner, but with no evident combo game to speak of. He is also unintuitive, because unlike every other character in the game, you cannot punish the same way and you cannot play the same way. With every other character, when you catch the opponent at close range making a mistake, you can go for a big combo punish or at least high damage move. Twelve has neither. His punishes are relatively pitiful. And so it's easy to think of him as an awful character.

Unintuitively, the best move (besides a super) is to throw them across the screen. What? Not only don't combo them, but get them as far away from you as possible? Which other character operates on that logic? None that I know of. And as said earlier in this thread, you're supposed to go invisible---and *then* you can begin your *real* punish game.

Makotsu (KE) vs. 12 Mania (TW)
2,879 views
•Aug 27, 2018
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgB0vQuDCeA

Twelve is in a lot of ways easily the most unintuitive and arcane character in the game. You play him like he's anyone else, he seems weak. His design is completely ass-backwards. Most characters have virtually useless taunts, and at first glance, it's easy to dismiss Twelve's to the same category.

In other games like Guilty Gear, invisibility is seen as a gimmick that doesn't provide enough utility to be relied upon---however, though not as strong as it could or perhaps should be in this game, in 3rd Strike, invisibility carries a lot of power, and in fact, much like Q and his taunts, Twelve utterly relies on its usage to work as a character.

You have to break through this mental association of 3rd Strike taunts with non-essential tools, you have to break through no combos = shit, you have to break through low damage = shit---it takes a lot of mind-bending to see Twelve as even a halfway decent character.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 02:54:49 2020 No.6229404

>>6228705
>>6229368
>>6229380
Invisible Twelve is the only character that is theoretically impossible to parry. He's one of the few characters that when invisible, could never be quite exactly pinned down, because he has so many options at so many different ranges, including a projectile that comes out of nowhere. While his dash sucks & he has no ground mobility specials, he still actually has some fantastic mobility: his air dash, obviously; his air dive; his relatively high super jump; & walking projectiles. Yet none of those tools are used to get in, per se; they are more used for positioning.

The goal of Twelve is not getting in. The goal of Twelve is playing keep away & the guessing game over & over & over again. Almost nobody else in the game plays like that. There's only a few characters that grant a transferable skillset coming to Twelve. Virtually nobody is mentally (literally) prepared to play him or take him seriously. And when you do pick him up, you're faced with the challenge of finding your own pseudo-combos, requiring conditioning your opponent into continuously guessing what you're doing wrong, & responding to their mistakes with small pokes here & there that are supposed to add up over time. You get punished heavily for your own mistakes with his low health & lack of great get-off-me options.

And finally, he's a copy character, an ability even his best players right now don't want to touch. In a way, Twelve isn't a bad character; and in the same vein, he's actually an expert level character, because a lot of crutches players are accustomed to are taken away from them: combos, health, reversals, range mostly, etc. To use X.C.O.P.Y., you have to be good with every other character you play against---and really, you have to be better than someone who actually mains that character themselves. A tall order, nearly impossible. But it could be done. But then, you'd have to learn 3rd Strike all over & over again.

This game is so unintuitive & arcane.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 03:05:16 2020 No.6229417

>>6229368
>Necro: considered by a lot of pedestrians to be a bad character. In reality, he's been proven to be one of the few characters in the game capable of long juggle-based combos. Nothing about his design suggests that he of all characters would be able to do it, except for perhaps his uppercut, but even then, you have no reason to think it can combo into anything other than another uppercut or a single move of your choice.

That's because you're only looking at it at surface level? Spend some time playing the game and it becomes obvious that any launcher has potential for combos, especially in the corner.

>In other words, a character designed to be a zoner secretly has one of the best combo games in the game; and you can chain seemingly random moves to one another, and they will juggle.

That's not the "one of the best combo in the game". Most of your examples involve stun and stun lets you "bypass" the juggle limit(of 6 combos) to get extra hits in. It's not particularly useful, and most characters can only get couple of hits in, but like any old games, people figure out how to get the most bang for your buck.

That particular stun combo against Makoto is character specific. So is his Urien combo in the corner. And if you think character specific setups/combos are exclusive to 3s... well, welcome to fighting games.

>It is unintuitive; and arcane, because how are you supposed to know which moves will allow for juggling?
By using the character and practicing? How do you know any combos will work in other fighting games? The term "labbing" in the FGC exists for a reason.

>This is too convenient a cliche because it glosses over a lot of what specifically makes the game so distinct and difficult.
3rd Strike isn't difficult to pick up and play due to lax inputs and lack of link combos in bnb's. It is, however, difficult to play at higher levels due to the meta-knowledge required. This is, again, true for most fighting games of its age.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 03:15:13 2020 No.6229434 >>6229404 >one character plays different from the norm so the game is unintuitive It sounds to me like you very shallow understanding of the game. There's really something about 3s that attracts all the "experts".

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 03:19:31 2020 No.6229440 >>6229368 >@5:16 I meant @5:46

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 03:32:11 2020 No.6229457

>>6229417
>That's because you're only looking at it at surface level?
Yes.
>Spend some time playing the game and it becomes obvious that any launcher has potential for combos
I specifically stated long ones. Most combos don't go beyond 2 hits after the launcher. And here you have Necro capable of both normals and specials up to like 7 hits.
>And if you think character specific setups/combos are exclusive to 3s...
You're missing the point.
>By using the character and practicing?
Again, after maybe dozens or hundreds of hours of dedicating yourself to the character.
The way the juggle limit is counted isn't in the manual. Who can bypass it isn't in the manual. If you had never seen Necro perform these before, you would have little reason to believe he could do them, even after a few sessions.
>How do you know any combos will work in other fighting games?
Because, again, the combos in other games are structured more intuitively, typically.
>>6229434
>one character plays different from the norm so the game is unintuitive
>what is an example

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 03:36:00 2020 No.6229464

>>6229434
And another example of its unintuitiveness and arcane nature is the presence of charge partitioning and buffering. Charge moves weren't meant to be usable on the fly, in rapid fire succession, but in 3rd Strike, that is a mechanic that exists and is critical to certain characters' strength. Again, this is not something you'd find in an official manual. Players going in blind would need a lot of luck to come across these things on their own.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 03:57:43 2020 No.6229508

>>6229464
It isn't intuitive because it requires time dedicated to mastering said character? I guess fighting games just aren't intuitive then.

>Because, again, the combos in other games are structured more intuitively, typically.
So because there are special (difficult) combos that exists, which you aren't required to know to play and enjoy the game, that overrides all the accessible and easy to understand aspect that makes up the core of the game? It's a flimsy argument.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:02:11 2020 No.6229517

>>6208613
>Chun-Li will die when cornered after 2 super grabs or 4 special grabs; you fail to see that everything she has, she needs in order to keep up, and that Hugo has all the tools he needs to win the match, if you have skill and wits.
If 2 players are at the exact same skill level but one is playing Hugo while the other is playing Chun-Li, Chunners will win 7 out of 10 matches because she simply has better options.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:07:49 2020 No.6229523 You don't want an actually balanced fighting game, it would suck to play. For the sake of making a good fighter, some of the characters in it have to be shit.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:13:16 2020 No.6229528

I can play chess against Bobby Fischer and I will without a doubt lose, but it doesn't change the fact that mechanically I start with an inherent advantage if I play as white because I get to move first. There are objective truths about balance that exists regardless of player skill.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:14:58 2020 No.6229531 >>6213181 Well he failed because Akuma was still OP in his "balanced" version of SF2

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:16:43 2020 No.6229536

>>6229508
>It isn't intuitive because it requires time dedicated to mastering said character?
No. The requiring time is a consequence of it being unintuitive.
>I guess fighting games just aren't intuitive then.
There are games that are more intuitive than 3rd Strike in some ways and others. Guilty Gear is an example where comboing is a lot more intuitive. Street Fighter II has a cast whose preferred playstyles are a lot simpler to grasp. Darkstalkers has uniform chain combos, whereas only certain characters have it in 3S. And so on.
>So because there are special (difficult) combos that exists, which you aren't required to know to play and enjoy the game
You won't be a truly good Urien if you don't know how to juggle off Aegis Reflector, which necessitates knowledge of the charge mechanics.
Again, this is another example, but I see your preferred debate strategy is to just brush it off and implicitly keep asking for more and more, even after I go to great lengths to show the sort of thought process one can use to arrive at similar conclusions for other characters. It's rather intellectually dishonest.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:21:54 2020 No.6229548

>>6229517
>If 2 players are at the exact same skill level but one is playing Hugo while the other is playing Chun-Li, Chunners will win 7 out of 10 matches because she simply has better options.
This is a cliche that completely ignores all the intricacies of a match.
If Hugo gets off his taunts and gets Chun-Li in a corner, the match is in his favor. If he has neither, it's a different story.
Simply saying Chun-Li will beat him because she has quick normals with good range and power and the you-know-which super art is small-brained.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:22:16 2020 No.6229550 If it's all so simple to explain how said character can be made viable, where's your trophy? Clearly you know how to make the character work so if you put enough effort then you too should be able to beat anyone with them.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:23:50 2020 No.6229554 >>6229523 I think you're projecting. But I think Justin "I love to play lame" Wong would agree with you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46oetgted08

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:24:38 2020 No.6229558 >>6229554 >I think you're projecting. I'm not projecting, balance would be the most boring shit in the world for me.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:27:23 2020 No.6229561

>>6229554
>Justin "I love to play lame" Wong
For one, he's being self-deprecating when saying that. Secondly, at the end of the day it doesn't matter what kind of strategy you used if in the end you still won because winning is what matters, to say otherwise is the salt talking. People talk about "just lame it out" for XTekken and it's true (and the game was indeed shit), but the reason people said it was because it was the most viable strategy in that game.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:31:38 2020 No.6229565

>>6229561
Not him but I don't think SFxT is bad to play, it's just absolutely godawful to watch. The game is super focused on footsies, and from there most combos don't deal enough damage to kill, it typically takes about three cycles to kill most middle health characters, and that's if they don't tag out. The combos are also ludicrously long for the mediocre damage they deal. That's why if the leader of the round is really far ahead they can just walk away and zone the last 20 seconds of the round and lame it out.

It can actually be fun to play, but there's a reason it left Evo so quickly. People would take watching repeated Zero May Cry combos and Soul Fist spam in MvC3 over that shit any day because at least in that game, when the hit connected the match ended fast.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:31:46 2020 No.6229567

>>6229550
>where's your trophy?
You're making a false logical leap regarding the claims, from "This character is strong" to "This character will take home the gold".
If the idea is that 3rd Strike is more balanced than many give it credit for, why is your rebuttal pointing out that other characters haven't been more dominant? Even after being shown time and again those characters being used well by others already.

I'll answer that question anyway: you don't see these characters more often because most people don't understand them and don't have the taste for their playstyles anyway. Ken and Chun-Li are already strong and far easier to swallow; why pick up Sean, Q, or Twelve when they are far less straightforward? Me, I can recognize Yang is a strong character, but I personally don't find rekka kens being a character's main source of damage fun to play, so I don't want to use him. You are perfectly capable of admitting a character is good without implicating yourself into having to play them to somehow prove it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:32:48 2020 No.6229568 >>6229558 >balance would be the most boring shit in the world for me >therefore it would be boring for everyone else >I'm not projecting

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:33:23 2020 No.6229569 >>6229567 If you think that even remotely implies the characters are on the same playing field, you're delusional.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:33:51 2020 No.6229571

>>6229536
>No. The requiring time is a consequence of it being unintuitive.
So every fighting game.

>There are games that are more intuitive than 3rd Strike in some ways and others. Guilty Gear is an example where comboing is a lot more intuitive. Street Fighter II has a cast whose preferred playstyles are a lot simpler to grasp. Darkstalkers has uniform chain combos, whereas only certain characters have it in 3S. And so on.
Even those games have specific quirks that are esoteric and necessitates research outside of the game if you want to fully understand its mechanics.

>You won't be a truly good Urien if you don't know how to juggle off Aegis Reflector, which necessitates knowledge of the charge mechanics.
Which isn't required to play the game. At all. If one wants to be autistically good at RX, the option is available, but no game has ever gone into depths of its system mechanics and pretending that 3S is somehow different is puzzling to say the least.

>Again, this is another example, but I see your preferred debate strategy is to just brush it off and implicitly keep asking for more and more, even after I go to great lengths to show the sort of thought process one can use to arrive at similar conclusions for other characters. It's rather intellectually dishonest.
That's because your premise is flawed and you're being stubborn when it's obvious your knowledge of 3S, and fightin games in general, is cursory at best. Every fighting game, by your limited definition, is "unintuitive". But you're being obtuse so I'm sure this simple fact will fly over your head again.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:34:13 2020 No.6229572

>>6229561
>he's being self-deprecating when saying that
No duh, but he's also keeping it real.
Anyway, I was referring more to his love of exploitable and somewhat cheap shit, which he admits himself. I'm not even knocking it, literally just repeating him, so you have no need to get defensive.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:36:30 2020 No.6229574

>>6229568
The only way you'd truly have balance is if every character played the same with no one have any advantages over each other. As I said before, even in chess where the pieces moves the same way for both players, white has an inherent advantage by the fact that it gets to move first. Once there are differences between characters, some things will just be objectively better than others.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:38:34 2020 No.6229581 >>6229572 >so you have no need to get defensive. I wouldn't be if the genre wasn't full of so many retards that claim you're playing "cheap"

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:39:29 2020 No.6229582

>>6229569
What I think is that people need to cut the bullshit and start acknowledging at the very least the facts as they have been outlined, instead of ignoring and denying them, or else we're never going to get anywhere in the conversation, which the Western community seems content with.
You wanna still say Twelve sucks? Fine. But you're going to have to add a "In spite of [all the reasons listed otherwise], for the reasons of [whatever explanation you can give]." Maybe still neither side will walk away convinced, but that gives bystanders something more to chew on and decide for themselves.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:41:05 2020 No.6229584 >>6229581 Fair enough, but I'm not one of them. Complaining about zoning, e.g., is stupid.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:45:20 2020 No.6229590

The fact that Gill exists is proof that the game is unbalanced because if it wasn't then he wouldn't be banned. It's the same situation with Akuma in SF2, the very fact that there is a character so powerful that any top-level player who uses him is basically guaranteed the win and thus no one is allowed to use him in order to have a semi-even playing field, is an acknowledgement that shit's fucked to a degree.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:45:22 2020 No.6229591 >>6229548 >If 2 players are at the exact same skill level >presents a scenario where Chun is severely handicapped from the start

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:46:22 2020 No.6229592 >>6229590 Also, before someone says "purposely overpowered boss characters don't count", why not? I thought you said player skill can trump that.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:49:05 2020 No.6229595

>>6229590
>>6229592
>boss characters don't count
They really don't dude.
Now you're just reaching. he's already banned; same with CVS2 and its powered-up alts.
Will you feel better if instead it was said "Besides these characters that were obviously designed to be overpowered"?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:50:14 2020 No.6229598 >>6229595 >"Besides these characters that were obviously designed to be overpowered"? Akuma wasn't designed to be and yet he was anyway. Hell even when Sirlin intentionally tried to nerf him, players found a way to make him broken-tier anyway.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:51:11 2020 No.6229601 >>6229591 I presented a scenario where Hugo has played the matchup how he is supposed to. Chun-Li's play is supposed to zone him out. Neither are guaranteed to happen. Do you want to present some match footage for us to mull over?

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:53:29 2020 No.6229603

>>6229601
>I presented a scenario where Hugo has played the matchup how he is supposed to. Chun-Li's play is supposed to zone him out. Neither are guaranteed to happen.
If they're playing at literally the exact same skill with no variables, it's going to be pretty damn rare that the Chun-Li player fucks up enough to let that happen with any real degree of frequency.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:54:46 2020 No.6229605

>>6229598
Even so, I'm not talking about SF2. Certain games are going to require further clarifications, as in this case where the imbalance was an accident, or incompetence, or genuine oversight.
Is MVC2 an imbalanced game? Yes. Because of boss characters? Not even. But not only does this have no bearing on a conversation about 3rd Strike, it also goes to show you what real imbalance actually looks like, which should re-adust your perspective on 3S's design.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:55:49 2020 No.6229607 >>6229603 So you say. Anyway, I only think about Japanese players. Maybe you're thinking about American cases, which is why we are not seeing eye to eye here.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 04:58:06 2020 No.6229609

>>6229607
I don't care about individual skill which can subjectively influence the outcome, I only care about the hard numbers and frame data. You can say "but a good player can overcome X" all you want and no shit, a kid can beat an adult if the kid has a gun, what does that have to do with an adult having more testosterone and muscle mass?

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 05:06:21 2020 No.6229619

>>6229571
My point is that all the little things compound in such a way that 3rd Strike becomes a bigger mountain of these factors than most other games. I could go on, but I don't want to, and you don't get the idea yet, so we'll leave it at that.
>it's obvious your knowledge of 3S, and fightin games in general, is cursory at best
whatever dude

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 05:10:46 2020 No.6229625 >>6229619 Nah, I get it. You don't play fighting games but like to talk about it as if you do. It's all good man, you're the reason why the term "theory fighting" exists so you're not alone.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 05:16:01 2020 No.6229629

>>6229609
>You can say "but a good player can overcome X"
That's not even my position though. Perhaps it's been unclear and that wasn't my intention.

My position is that each character was designed in such a way to have certain strengths and weaknesses so that players are expected to play in certain ways in order to win. If you play Hugo how you're supposed to, there's no "Well you can get past the fact that he's bad because of so and so reasons." I'm denying that he's bad at all or that there's anything holding you back from succeeding. I believe if you are not finding success, you are surely bad with the character---it's not the character's fault, you're just not playing them well.

Furthermore, certain strengths and weaknesses are more apparent while others are more subtle. Ultimately, to many people, Yun, Chun-Li, and Ken were clearly the superior characters, because their strengths shined so evidently. Their weaknesses seemed negligible or non-existent. What I'm saying is that this sort of thing is taken way more for granted than it should be. You are so thoroughly convinced Chun-Li will dominate Hugo or any other character because you seem not to understand how she could lose nor what good play from her foes is supposed to be like.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 05:17:11 2020 No.6229631 >>6229625 While you play fighting games whilst giving no thought to what's occurring whatsoever?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 05:21:16 2020 No.6229634 >>6229629 And I think you put more faith in Capcom's ability than is warranted and if this game is actually balanced, it was because of a fluke and not actual competence going by their track record.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 05:29:27 2020 No.6229648

>>6229634
The base game got 2 revisions and came after SFA3. They weren't in such a bad position with 3rd Strike as they were with other games, which had no models to see mistakes in, no public prototypes, or any other advantages 3S was afforded.
Sure, they don't usually stick the landing on the first try. But 3rd Strike was by no means a first try.
I know it's hard to look at the data and facts of the game, at least at first glance, and believe the devs knew what they were doing. But I swear, the more and more you get into it and the deeper and deeper you look, it starts unraveling itself as a finer, more carefully crafted product than it ever appeared before.
But again, an issue it has is that it just really doesn't seem to be the case at all until you've spent a lot of hard time with it and tried to follow the devs' logic in making things the way they did.
Is it perfect though? Probably not.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 05:29:55 2020 No.6229649

>all this back and forth "nuh uh" talk
Go on fightcade and prove your side to be correct with your own skill. Because at the end of the day, that's the one thing FG players will actually acknowledge in someone, if they'll put up or shut up. Don't use other players' skill as your proxy, prove your own worth. As Ryu would say, back up your words with your own two fists.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 05:31:35 2020 No.6229651

>>6229648
>The base game got 2 revisions and came after SFA3. They weren't in such a bad position with 3rd Strike as they were with other games, which had no models to see mistakes in, no public prototypes, or any other advantages 3S was afforded.
>Sure, they don't usually stick the landing on the first try. But 3rd Strike was by no means a first try.
By that logic Ultra 4 should've been amazing because they even got an extra try to get it right.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 05:35:58 2020 No.6229653

>>6229651
Yeah, but correct me if I'm wrong, you got a lot of staff change-ups by then, a lot more people who didn't know what they were doing working on it.
Same reason why there was never a game as good as S3&K or SA2 in their series after they were released.
Being able to put out patches and revisions, you are correct, is no guarantee that the product will come out better or closer to perfection. But at the same time, I think that it happened should carry a bit more weight and warrant more careful consideration of what was tweaked.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 05:37:19 2020 No.6229656 I believe 3rd Strike is SHIT and the only reason we played it for so long because we had fuckall else from Capcom for so long other than MvC2 and that was played to death too. SF4 wasn't good but people were just glad to move on.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 05:39:34 2020 No.6229657
File: 107 KB, 1340x484, 2020-02-21_06-35-55.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6229649
I've put forward multiple videos in support of my side while you have posted none, and they've not been acknowledged (besides the Necro combos). I have zero reason to believe a match will be any more convincing. You don't even own up to anyone else's skill. You're a rascal.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 05:43:36 2020 No.6229661 >>6229656 >I believe 3rd Strike is SHIT Why though. >just glad to move on Why do you have to move on? What direction and level of quality do you think SF should have been trending towards?

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 05:46:10 2020 No.6229664

>>6229661
>Why though.
Because I don't like it, and my opinion's all that matters to me.
>Why do you have to move on?
Who wants to play the same game competitively forever? Shit gets stale, unless some new tech gets discovered it just stays in limbo where people are only playing it because the next big game hasn't come out yet.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 05:50:53 2020 No.6229671

>>6229657
>I've put forward multiple videos in support of my side while you have posted none, and they've not been acknowledged (besides the Necro combos).
Because no one gives a fuck what other players are doing in this conversation, they want to know you're not just a stream monster and can actually back up your words with YOUR skill. Because if you haven't noticed, that's something this community values. Because if you yourself aren't good at the game, why should I care what you think?

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 05:53:18 2020 No.6229673

>>6229671
>Because no one gives a fuck what other players are doing in this conversation
If this is true then it explains why I feel like I'm talking in circles. If you don't want to recognize evidence, then you don't have really anything of worth to contribute to the discussion.
>Because if you yourself aren't good at the game, why should I care what you think?
Because it's not about and was never about my skill.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 05:54:09 2020 No.6229675 >>6229673 >Because it's not about and was never about my skill. This is fighting games, it ALWAYS comes down to your own individual skill.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 05:55:44 2020 No.6229679 >>6229673 >expecting anything else from a community who is infamous for its mindset of "1v1 me faggot if you think you're so right" because of the ghetto culture it came from

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:07:57 2020 No.6229690 >>6229679 astute

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:10:45 2020 No.6229694 >>6229690 You don't truly understand what it means to play fighting games until you've seen the knife start coming into your peripheral vision after you win too much.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:14:36 2020 No.6229701 >>6229694 And before you say "that only happens in America", Daigo once said that when young, he won a little too hard a few too many times one day and got his face rearranged for it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:16:49 2020 No.6229704 >>6229701 Daigo is kinda infamous for being an asshole so he was probably rubbing it in. 99% of the time when fighting games break out into actual violence, it's because the winner was talking shit real hard, not simply because of the match results.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:21:07 2020 No.6229714 >>6229694 Sounds... spooky. Unrelatedly though, I have had a gun pointed at me for literally no reason in an urban environment.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:22:02 2020 No.6229715 >>6229704 No in this case, it was because Daigo was 13 and the guy was in his 20s, and it was the age-old example of "dude can't stand that a kid stomped him" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK3-rJ_5zoE

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:25:56 2020 No.6229717
File: 94 KB, 854x480, [Daigo] I Got Punched in the Face Repeatedly in the arcade.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6229701
>>6229715
No wonder his cheeks are so huge.
But that's very unfortunate. Wonder what really was wrong with that guy, because it was Japan, after all. Maybe fighting games just bring out the nasty side of men.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:26:44 2020 No.6229719

>>6229629
You totally fail to understand statistics. There is no "in this situation" in the aggregate. Given equal player skill the character that is better will have a higher win rate because over multiple games their superior tools will put them in the situation they are strong in more often.
Sure, Hugo will body Chun in the corner. Over multiple games he will have less opportunities to do that than Chun will have to pull off her shit. Over a large set of games the better tools provide the better situation more often and the wins that go with it.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:31:04 2020 No.6229723

>>6229717
It just was a thing back then. It seems to be universal across cultures. Fighting games, especially in arcades where you have to pay for each match, just have a higher than average tendency to cause chimpouts. The only reason it doesn't happen as much is because arcades aren't as big anymore in the states and in Japan you can pay by that card system at a lot of places. That and surveillance tech is a lot better in the 80s so security will actually notice that shit a lot faster now.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:32:06 2020 No.6229724 >>6229723 a lot better than in the 80s, I meant.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:34:25 2020 No.6229727 >>6229723 Also and I forgot to mention this, japanese arcades have a tendency to attract drunks since public drunkenness is legal in Japan. And boy you don't want to get a drunk angry.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:34:52 2020 No.6229729

>>6229719
>You totally fail to understand statistics.
What I understand is that the more players a character has, the more likely you will have more good players maining them than other characters do.
Thus the results as we have them. Who are the exceptional Hugo players? Hayao? YSB? Tanaka? How big a gap between them is there in terms of skill? Hayao is widely considered the best and yet he never taunts, even when he's had opportunities to. YSB doesn't even play Gigas Breaker. The data is not that meaningful because when you look at the data points, they aren't what they should be and are few and far between anyway.
>superior tools
You keep talking as if Hugo doesn't have good tools.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:36:27 2020 No.6229732

>>6229729
>What I understand is that the more players a character has, the more likely you will have more good players maining them than other characters do.
So you're saying you don't understand statistics then. This isn't about the number of players, but about running hundreds of simulations through a computer and calculating the most likely outcomes.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:41:49 2020 No.6229735

>>6229694
>after you win too much.
Really all you need to do is throw them 2-3 times in a row and eventually it'll be against someone who takes it too personally and hits you. Throws just fucking triggered players so hard back in the day, the very concept of a throw was seen as unfair because you can't block it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:41:59 2020 No.6229736 >>6229732 >running hundreds of simulations simulations of what? of computers playing 3rd Strike? are you serious?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:43:26 2020 No.6229738 >>6229735 throwing is cheap and lame blocking is cheap and lame spamming projectiles is cheap and lame using the same move over and over again is cheap and lame waiting for me to approach you is cheap and lame et alia

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:44:13 2020 No.6229740 >>6229736 No, of calculating variables based on raw numbers. It crunches all the numbers of the two characters including frame data and such, and then computes the aggregate.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:45:25 2020 No.6229742 >>6229740 >It crunches all the numbers of the two characters including frame data and such And that's where you're going wrong.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:45:56 2020 No.6229745 >>6229738 All of these, but unironically. Remember, back in the day even the devs thought the idea of comboing was unfair (and technically was just a glitch).

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:47:18 2020 No.6229747 >>6229742 It's not, it works purely within objectivity without having to take into account the subjective variable of player skill. Statistics cannot lie unless the data was inputted correctly as math only has one answer.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:48:18 2020 No.6229749 >>6229747 incorrectly*

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:49:19 2020 No.6229751 >>6229745 >back in the day even the devs thought the idea of comboing was unfair that explains a lot in fairness though, the way it works in more than one fighting game, particularly in the Marvel vs series, kinda is

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:51:00 2020 No.6229756

>>6229751
No I mean just the idea of being able to hit an enemy multiple times without them being able to recover, even the most basic comboing. That was never intended in SF2, it was legitimately a programming oversight that allowed it. The game was originally designed with the idea that you did everything from a neutral state.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:51:43 2020 No.6229758

>>6229747
>it works purely within objectivity
It's a flawed notion of objectivity because it ignores a lot or everything except numbers.
Twelve, again, for example, is always going to come out on bottom from this method. It's inherently flawed because the game doesn't work that way / that's not all there is to it.
>Statistics cannot lie
This isn't a card game we're talking about.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:53:25 2020 No.6229761 >>6229758 >Twelve, again, for example, is always going to come out on bottom from this method. That shouldn't bother you unless you're a tierwhore.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:55:31 2020 No.6229764
File: 2.82 MB, 700x394, c - 1580355511309 - street fighter alpha 3 infinite karin.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6229756
>No
I know what you mean. And even though they relented on the most basic level, they still stuck to their guns in Street Fighter's and other games' mechanics to one degree or another of not allowing substantial comboing, with some exceptions of course. And those exceptions sometimes prove their fears true with how utterly incapable a victim is of helping themselves once they get stuck in a vortex.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:56:06 2020 No.6229765 >>6229764 Just don't get hit.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 06:57:41 2020 No.6229769

>>6229761
What I've been trying to communicate to you is that there is more to Twelve and other characters than how high their damage is or how fast their frame data is that makes them strong. Bad damage, range and frame data was used to balance their strengths in other areas, and ignoring these dynamics is incredibly silly and short-sighted. Your model cannot account for this.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 07:00:41 2020 No.6229773

>>6229765
We can say that about anything.
But at the end of the day, it's a thing, and potential players will decide if they want to invest in a game where they'll have to play around that. SFA3 and MVC2 have an appeal that obviously attracts its own demographic that puts off others from touching them. Not everyone likes the potential to combo someone to death for free if it means having equal to chance to have the same happen to them.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 07:07:19 2020 No.6229784

>>6229769
>Bad damage, range and frame data was used to balance their strengths in other areas
In 12's case it's other areas account for "fucking nothing". Even the best 12 players tend to play him worse than the the other characters they main. 12 Mania has to actively play harder than when playing as other characters in order to get the same results.

Honestly you don't come across as someone more enlightened than the rest of us about how the game works, you sound like someone desperate to prove your main isn't shit. It's quite pathetic the lengths you've gone for something like that.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 07:11:03 2020 No.6229793

>>6229784
>12 Mania has to actively play harder than when playing as other characters in order to get the same results.
Why do you think that?
How come suddenly it's too much work whenever it comes to an underrated character?
>Honestly you don't come across as someone more enlightened than the rest of us about how the game works
Because you're not willing to question your prior beliefs or dogma, or think critically.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 07:11:16 2020 No.6229794 >>6229769 >Your model cannot account for this. Don't worry, reality has us covered on that point. He's shit tier in the math and posts shit tier results as a character. The experiment has supported the hypothesis.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 07:15:16 2020 No.6229797 >>6229794 >posts shit tier results as a character Because, again, he has basically no good players right now. That you cannot grasp this simple concept to me is very concerning.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 07:19:44 2020 No.6229804

>>6229797
The game's been you for fucking years and still has a scene and autists religiously finding new things. There's no super secret sauce, we had decades of competition to grind that shit out. No one picks him up because he's shit, not the other way around.
>That you cannot grasp this simple concept to me is very concerning.
That you can't understand how fucking old and combed through this game from 1999 is on a retro games board more concerning. The time for hidden OP characters is long gone.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 07:28:02 2020 No.6229818

>>6229804
I have painstakingly shown how for 20 years basically nobody was able to recognize basic facts concerning Twelve's design. When you pop into any discussion that brings him up, here or outside of this site, you almost certainly won't see anything like what I've written about him. Your claim is total bullshit; there is tons of ignorance about this game and an arrogance that it's been solved despite repeatedly demonstrating blindness.
Now the other matter, I want you to consider a simple thought experiment: what would we think about Q if TM and Kuroda never existed? What would we think about Remy if Pierrot never existed? What would we think about Necro if Sugiyama and PinoAB7 never existed? How do we currently perceive Elena and Sean, who lack any notable mains?
We would experience a radical shift in attitudes and knowledge because nobody else has been capable thus far of proving those characters worth. But the pathetic fault in your thinking is that, because there are so few or no players, that proves how bad the characters are, only to turn a blind eye to the performance you've been granted by those sole masters. And you're not alone in this.
The game is by no means solved or over. And the Americans are years behind where the Japanese are right now, yet don't even know it. It's clear they don't actually care and just want to posture like they have everything figured out, when again, the world keeps turning around them.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 07:35:01 2020 No.6229821 >>6229818 >I have painstakingly shown The only thing you've shown is how dedicated you are to trying to prove your main isn't bottom tier

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 07:37:15 2020 No.6229824

>>6229821
I chose to discuss Twelve at length because he's the favorite example of how 3rd Strike supposedly has shit design and balance.
And not once, not a single time, have you had any counterpoint to the claims in his defense that you've either backed up or put forward at all.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 09:09:23 2020 No.6229892
File: 73 KB, 239x163, Elena-handstandfail.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6229821
He does have a point though. You aren't really giving counterpoints to what he's saying, just throwing insults around and acting like he's the one doing the trolling. It's a little lame. And what he's describing isn't that unheard of in fighters. I was into Injustice 1 for a time and for most of that time Joker was considered utter trash until one really good player started dominating with him and others slowly picked how he was using his toolset. And I met people who tried to tell me Wonder Woman was only mid tier until I would mash them over and over using the characters they thought were better.

>>6229818
SF has never really been my bag, especially compared to KoF but 3 is my favorite of them mostly because of the weirdness. I imagine some mystical time in the future where I have the time to dedicate to fighters and still the reflexes to play and figure out how to make Elena viable.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 09:13:13 2020 No.6229901 >>6229892 thanks >figure out how to make Elena viable I could try explaining it for you later. She has the potential to rape but you have to be smart.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 09:30:56 2020 No.6229916

>>6229901
Maybe if you feel like it but it's been so long since I played it I don't know how much I'd retain. It's funny this was my go-to genre for so long, but I feel like I burnt out a little on '98 and '02 and then hated 12, 13 and ohh god 14 so much that KoF is slightly dead to me these days and no other fighter quite filled the void.

Also it's one of those genres where if I'm not playing mostly every day I don't feel competitive which is less fun and I just don't have the time for it these days.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 09:50:24 2020 No.6229941

>>6208275
you pick a single super you can do and the opponent can see you do it. special attacks have a range that cover many things like anti air typically. a well balanced character has a answer for the 3 typical problems. supers should reflect this to allow for more evenly matched fights

however picking a super you are stuck in a route and the opponent knows you picked the generic longer ranged super that goes forward. so all they have to do is jump. you know the thing people do constantly in 2d fighters... and mmorpgs... and fps. jumping should only exist in platformers and action games. what would people do if they couldnt jump how would they bypass the fireball? sidestep into the background or foreground a little. it would be more cool in 2d but sadly capcom and didnt think it was a good idea and snk wasnt as popular and still allowed people to jump...

but i digress its a simple matter of options being more limited and only having a couple of worth while characters to use

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 10:54:19 2020 No.6230049

>>6229941
>so all they have to do is jump. you know the thing people do constantly in 2d fighters... and mmorpgs... and fps. jumping should only exist in platformers and action games. what would people do if they couldnt jump how would they bypass the fireball? sidestep into the background or foreground a little.

I probably found this much too funny. The things people will whine about are amazing.

King of Fighters has rolls and side steps by the way.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 13:13:27 2020 No.6230217

>>6229631
I put my game plan them into practice and actually play the damn game to test them out. Imagine that. Instead, you spend all your time writing fanfiction about shit you've only seen on tape as evidence with none backed up by experience.

Your Twelve argument sounds like the parroted, "true socialism hasn't been tried!" argument, by the way. Continue being a armchair 3S player.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 14:16:35 2020 No.6230320
File: 436 KB, 200x192, oh shit.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6229818
All you've shown is your own autism. It's obvious you have an agenda here to push, what with your OP pic and the fact that this entire thread has been a Twelve and Hugo Defense Force solely populated by you (the latter of which never needed one, grappler characters have always had a dedicated playerbase regardless of said character's tierlist placing). The fact that you dismiss any potential counterargument to your claims as either lacking mitigating circumstances or as just being false because it doesn't align with what you believe like a brainwashed communist. The fact that you seem to be COMPELLED to respond to every post in the thread. The posting format you always dogmatically adhere to which only shows your autism more. The fact that you used a fucking youtube comment of all things as something to respond to as if it doesn't make you look even more sad. And most importantly, the fact that you think you'll actually change anything in regards to a game the FGC left behind long ago and don't even care about playing anymore, and that you think the place you'll make a difference is on fucking /vr/ of all places.

Put simply.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXkF2viFDgU

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 14:22:06 2020 No.6230327 >>6230217 I don't feel like reading this whole dumpster fire of a thread, did he say he doesn't actually play and use Twelve? Do you have a main in the game?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 14:22:57 2020 No.6230328 >>6230327 He said he only has couple hours in fightcade and barely plays.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 14:33:47 2020 No.6230349

>>6230328
Ehh granted I'm also a somewhat lapsed fighting games player but I have played them for thousands and thousands of hours over the years and never even installed fightcade and can still talk about KoF for example even though it's been some time since I played it. That would be different from someone who never really played though, which is what I was curious about.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 14:55:03 2020 No.6230392 >>6230328 >He said he only has couple hours in fightcade and barely plays. where

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 15:19:06 2020 No.6230434 >>6230392 see >>6229657

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 15:21:30 2020 No.6230439
File: 39 KB, 154x154, twelvechipdeath.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6229818
The problem is you are a nobody on an anonymous image board, why should I trust you? Meanwhile 3S players with actual resuts to their name deem Twelve as shit. Why should I trust your input?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 15:31:02 2020 No.6230460 >>6230439 Don't bother responding to him, it's like talking to a communist or a conspiracy theorist. All evidence to the contrary of their claims only proves their claim in their eyes.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 15:31:25 2020 No.6230461 >>6230434 I didn't say that was me.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 15:32:13 2020 No.6230464 >>6230461 Then you're even more pathetic for hiding your id and not putting up or shutting up.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 15:32:50 2020 No.6230465 >>6230439 I write under the assumption the person reading can think for themselves. It's clear that on 4chan that isn't the case at all, as you and everyone else repeatedly emphasize.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 15:34:17 2020 No.6230472
File: 162 KB, 1280x960, toguro.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6230465
>I write under the assumption the person reading can think for themselves.
>he says as he also uses 3S players with results to their name to try and support his claim while saying the ones who say otherwise either don't count or are misinformed
The irony is palpable.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 15:35:45 2020 No.6230474

>>6230464
I posted it to show that you get radio silence even if you provide proof because you all are desperate for anything to cling to to discredit someone, literally just looking for scraps in a last ditch effort to save face.
Failing that, you'll just quietly stalk away. Seen it time and again.

You don't want to argue? Leave the thread. Go make your own 3rd Strike thread and tell me to stay away. Go make a hugbox to circlejerk outdated misconceptions.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 15:39:43 2020 No.6230482

>>6230472
The difference between you all and myself is that you only care about numbers and placings while I'm talking about gameplay. I'm using other players' gameplay as evidence to support my claims while all you can do is cite tradition and statistics.

I don't know why you continue pretending as if you have any credibility when throughout this thread you have shown yourself incapable of arguing, incapable of critically challenging long-held beliefs, incapable of acknowledging evidence, incapable of understanding the game on a deeper level, and basically completely worthless for decent conversation.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 15:46:08 2020 No.6230497 File: 39 KB, 500x500, Smug Anime Face.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6230474 >>6230482 No the difference is I'm not butthurt.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 15:47:59 2020 No.6230501 >>6230497 If you say so.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 15:49:17 2020 No.6230504 >>6230349 You're right. However your logic escapes them.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 16:05:45 2020 No.6230526

>>6230482
>I'm using other players' gameplay as evidence to support my claims
AND YET when someone else does the same it's
>they're Americans so they don't count because they only care about winning and thus take the path of least resistance (which ironically is an admission that these characters are objectively better because it means you have to put in less effort to get the same results, that's what the path of least resistance means)
>I challenge who the players being used in question
>the charts are unfair because they include the bad players and not just the very top of the playerbase
>20 years of evidence doesn't support the counterargument to your claims, but any evidence you can find in that 20 years that supports your argument is valid
>when people point out that a player for the character you like was straight up outplayed, you said they weren't playing at their best instead of the fact that you know, they fucked up and got outplayed which removes the agency from the player on your side
>the continued assertion that everyone but you is wrong
We're not the ones that are bad faith actors here, see my post again >>6230320 you fucking autist. We're only humoring you here because most of us want to see how far you'll go to stick to your guns. And I'm going to keep responding because I know you're too autistic to not respond to me so the fun never ends.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 16:10:06 2020 No.6230535 >>6230526 >AND YET when someone else does the same Nobody else has done the same despite me inviting them to do exactly that. I have repeatedly challenged naysayers to post footage and yet none did. Didn't read the rest of what you wrote.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 16:17:08 2020 No.6230550

>>6230535
>Didn't read the rest of what you wrote.
Of course not, the last thing you want is people pointing out the flaws in your beliefs.
But then that's a lie, we both know you read it because you can't bring yourself not to, just like you're responding to me now.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 16:21:35 2020 No.6230554 >>6230550 I swear to god I didn't read a single line beyond "same it's". Like I said, if you want to start arguing in good faith, I'm all ears. It's all I wanted, intellectual honesty.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 16:23:25 2020 No.6230559

>>6230554
>I swear to god I didn't read a single line beyond "same it's".
The fact that you have to say that is far more pathetic than just saying nothing. It's clear you aren't from 4chan.
>if you want to start arguing in good faith
I will once you do.
>It's all I wanted, intellectual honesty.
Oh I've always been honest, I'm just here to be a dick.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 16:26:43 2020 No.6230563 >>6230559 >The fact that you have to say that is far more pathetic than just saying nothing. It's clear you aren't from 4chan. You're just looking for things to complain about now. Please hop off.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 16:32:34 2020 No.6230581 >>6230563 >go away, leave our forum! Now you really are acting like a tourist.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 16:33:04 2020 No.6230582

3rd Strike is imbalanced but ultimately it boils down to player skill in conjunction with character that determines the outcome of matches. I play Ken who is considered top tier and still get wrecked by players that use lower tier characters. I'll fully admit to sucking hard at the game, but the point is that character matchups aren't gospel in 3s. The only characters you'll face a literal wall of a battle against in the game is if you're playing as Sean, or just anyone vs Chun-Li.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 16:50:15 2020 No.6230620 >>6230582 >The only characters you'll face a literal wall of a battle against in the game is if you're playing as Sean That's only true if you're not smart enough to play him.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 17:00:06 2020 No.6230630

>>6230620
I should also have mentioned Twelve. Nowadays most people consider him worse than Sean, but regardless, both characters struggle to get literally anything going. Sean can hit hard with his supers sure, but he struggles to actually confirm anything, most of his tools are unsafe, some even on HIT, and he doesn't have a good oki or wakeup.

Twelve just can't take or deal damage and can't convert off of his air dash for anything substantial, and gets shut down hard by any character with a dp. And his supers are all trash.

Point is, for most characters you can get by on smart play and fundamentals, but these two are the exception.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 17:08:16 2020 No.6230646

The thing you have to remember is that 3rd Strike's meta, especially the Japanese meta, was built not around single bouts but team play. The idea is that the players cover each others' weaknesses in a 3v3 format. Yes, Kuroda is arguably the best 3rd Strike player there is and an amazing Q player. He's also even better with other characters as shown by his 1st place Akuma at Tougeki 2008, 1st in 2010 as Ken, and 1st in 2012 as Oro, all of which where he swept it on a level he never did as Q. Meanwhile Q only got him 3rd in 2005. But he likes playing Q more so he plays Q more. You know, before he nearly killed himself and supposedly molested that girl.

But it's a bad idea to judge a character's viability purely because of if the very best of the best can get something out of them because let's face it, the absolute cream of the crop could make a shit-tier character work if they want it to just because their raw skill will make up for any mechanical shortcomings, I've seen amazing Iron Fist players in MvC3 but that doesn't change that he's objectively the 2nd worst character in the game. Yeah you can make him work (in a game NO ONE denies is unbalanced), but you gotta build your whole team around making him work.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 17:10:01 2020 No.6230652 Chun li

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 17:15:42 2020 No.6230667 >>6230630 There's also the fact that Sean was straight up nerfed, remember that he was god tier in 2nd Impact and they didn't just hit him with a nerf bat, it was a nerf nuke.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 17:18:35 2020 No.6230680

>>6230630
>Sean can hit hard with his supers sure, but he struggles to actually confirm anything, most of his tools are unsafe, some even on HIT, and he doesn't have a good oki or wakeup.
You're supposed to use your mobility to avoid getting hit and capitalize off your opponent's mistakes. His roll is useful to get in and mix-up. His dash is useful for the same reason. His jump kick for the same reason and it can anti-air. He has Dudley's rose but it can be used from afar and faked out. I went into detail here >>6214529 >>6214532
Sean is better than you think, and he's not harder work per se, you just have to have to have a certain way of thinking to succeed with him. He's more difficult to understand in terms of play than a character like Ken.

>Twelve just can't take or deal damage and can't convert off of his air dash for anything substantial, and gets shut down hard by any character with a dp. And his supers are all trash.
I've also discussed why Twelve is not as underequipped as one might think.
On the topic of X.C.O.P.Y., it comes down to whether or not the player is good with all the other characters. If they are, they can go very far with it. If not, then they'll fail pretty hard. It's difficult, but not trash. Difficult doesn't mean trash.
X.F.L.A.T., it's worth mentioning, does pretty decent damage.
>>6210496
>>6210521
>>6210537
>>6210550
>>6210570
>>6210575
>>6229380
>>6229404
>>6229567
>>6229582
>>6229769
>these two are the exception
Both he and Sean are considered bad because most players don't find them fun and are scared off by surface level details so don't invest any time into getting to know them.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 17:19:58 2020 No.6230683 >>6230667 They were apparently afraid he would be overcentralizing and that most people were missing the point of his design. I'm inclined to agree with them. He's not as strong as he was but he's not weak.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 17:20:59 2020 No.6230686

>>6230646
To put it more simply, if Kuroda was magically in a situation where he could face himself and one was Akuma Kuroda and the other was Q Kuroda, from what we saw at the 2008 SBO Akuma Kuroda would fucking stomp Q Kuroda. And if it's literally the same person with the same skillset who is god-tier at any character he plays, then you have to chalk it up to mechanical differences between the characters being the factor.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 17:34:37 2020 No.6230720

>>6230646
>Yes, Kuroda is arguably the best 3rd Strike player there is
Eh. He's one of the best but I wouldn't say the best in the game right now.
>and an amazing Q player
One of the only 2 good ones it seems.
>He's also even better with other characters
I'd debate that. I found his performance with other characters generally lackluster in contrast to his Q play. He seemed to largely "get" Q in a way for some reason he didn't other characters, despite protesting that he's not his real main.
>But it's a bad idea to judge a character's viability purely because of if the very best of the best can get something out of them because let's face it, the absolute cream of the crop could make a shit-tier character work if they want it to just because their raw skill will make up for any mechanical shortcomings
The thing is, saying a character is bad in spite of any results or experience proving otherwise is just as much "theory fighting" as claiming the character is better than people think because of or using said evidence. It's not fair to prioritize the one opinion just because it's more popular.
>you gotta build your whole team around making him work.
except when a man can solo an opposing team by himself
>>6216960
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9jK_7m0sCU

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 17:34:55 2020 No.6230724

People always bring up whether or not a character is good but no one ever brings up the situation with poor Ibuki. Ibuki is a character that has to constantly have momentum or she's shut down, her character is crippled by this fact. You get one good parry off of her while she's in the middle of building momentum, and you can just stick a fork in her now because she's done. Oh sure you can find tons of amazing Ibuki plays online but what those videos aren't telling you is that if the other player gets the slightest edge in, she falls apart like a chinese motorcycle. But no one cares to bring her up because like Oro she's the definition of mid tier.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 17:36:56 2020 No.6230728 >>6230686 I disagree the match would automatically go to Akuma or that it'd be one-sided.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 17:39:23 2020 No.6230731

>>6230720
>The thing is, saying a character is bad in spite of any results or experience proving otherwise is just as much "theory fighting" as claiming the character is better than people think because of or using said evidence.
I didn't say that, I just said using the best of the best to prove a point doesn't prove anything because these are people that could win with one hand tied behind their back, it doesn't reflect the general community. Deep Blue is not representative of chess as a game, it was a computer designed for the sole purpose of being the best chess player possible.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 17:41:12 2020 No.6230738

>>6230724
>no one ever brings up the situation with poor Ibuki
because there's nothing to feel sympathetic about
Ibuki is a good character and trying to claim otherwise just comes off as whining
>But no one cares to bring her up because like Oro she's the definition of mid tier.
No one brings them up because very few people are going to claim that they are bad, whether or not they think they are no higher than mid-tier, or can hang with the best of them.

Here's an example.

SFIII: 3rd Strike - Ibuki [Atsushi] vs Chun Li [Hiyama]
8,990 views
•Jul 16, 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN7lphQ-l0w
9:13 to 10:43 is how, or at least one way, you beat Chun-Li with Ibuki; also up to 11:27
If you're not doing that, chances are you're not playing the character correctly. And if you're not playing the character correctly, you're likely not playing them well. And if you're not playing them well, you should consider switching to a character that better complements your playstyle.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 17:44:25 2020 No.6230746 >>6230738 Why do you post videos like that, just share the link with the timecode built. It's fucking irritating.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 17:44:52 2020 No.6230747 >>6230746 it makes it easier to identify him if nothing else

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 17:44:54 2020 No.6230748

>>6230731
>I just said using the best of the best to prove a point doesn't prove anything
Then let me rephrase this: Showing how a good player of a character handles the character does not demonstrate the character's worth accurately.
Would you object to this wording of your claim?
If not, how does this logic make sense to you? How does a skilled player showing what skilled play of a character looks like not provide better insight into that character's design, their strengths, weaknesses, and gameplan?
>it doesn't reflect the general community
And it shouldn't because the general community are not great players.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 17:48:17 2020 No.6230753 >>6230746 You wouldn't happen to be on a phone by any chance, would you?

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 17:51:35 2020 No.6230756
File: 23 KB, 693x274, link.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6230753
No I'm on a desktop, and your links look like this. I have never seen anyone post youtube videos like this where they include the views and date. I have to assume it's you because no other person posting YT links on 4chan has this come up.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 17:57:27 2020 No.6230770

>>6230748
>And it shouldn't because the general community are not great players.
Uh huh great but that's not how the real world works, you don't base everything in baseball by how just the Yankees play. Fighting games are a community, mid level play is just as important to the game as high level play.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 17:57:42 2020 No.6230771

>>6230680
>Both he and Sean are considered bad because most players don't find them fun and are scared off by surface level details so don't invest any time into getting to know them
Lmao

People who play for money will learn to play characters they don't like. Hell, players will play entire games they dont like if it makes them money.

The idea that people just aren't good with Sean is hilarious.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 17:58:56 2020 No.6230772
File: 317 KB, 688x409, 2020-02-27_16-54-54.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6230756
>your links look like this
It looks like this on my end.
>post youtube videos like this where they include the views and date
if you were to select the title and drag the cursor down on the youtube page, you'd nab that extra info
the views aren't essential, though they do clue in to how much of a splash that video has made
the date gives important context because this game has changed a decent amount since YouTube was created and before then up till now; even so, a lot of remarkable things happened in the past that even now a lot of people don't know about
including the title is just common courtesy for the participants as well as the archives

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 17:59:08 2020 No.6230773 >>6230771 Not to mention there was previously an entire community of people amazing with Sean when he was top tier in 2nd Impact, it's not like they didn't try to make him work in 3rd Strike after investing so much in him previously.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 18:00:17 2020 No.6230775 >>6230772 None of those things actually matter to anyone but you, it's why no one else does it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 18:00:28 2020 No.6230778 >>6230770 >mid level play is just as important to the game as high level play In what way? How is it just as useful to know what shitty play looks like as for godly play?

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 18:01:29 2020 No.6230780 >>6230773 >tierwhores >character loyalty come on now

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 18:02:30 2020 No.6230782 >>6230775 I already understand you don't care that much about 3rd Strike. It's still for the archives.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 18:04:32 2020 No.6230784 >>6230771 >People who play for money will learn to play characters they don't like If that character is the path of least resistance.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 18:06:54 2020 No.6230787

>>6230778
Because these are the people that actually keep the game alive, 12-20 top tier people are not what sustains a game. More importantly it's representative of what the game is actually like.

>>6230780
They may be tierwhores but sunk cost is a bitch, no one wants to admit the time they put into the character in the previous game was "wasted" on the current one so they tried really hard to make Sean work like he did previously before giving up.

>>6230782
>I already understand you don't care that much about 3rd Strike.
I'm just not a sperg who treats 4chan like this is SRK and doesn't understand how links work here.

>>6230784
The very concept of the path of least resistance, as I stated before in the post you refuse to read, an admission that these characters are objectively better because it means you have to put in less effort to get the same results, that's what the path of least resistance means.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 18:16:44 2020 No.6230798

>>6230778
Not him but let me put it this way with something dunkey said years back before he became pretentious. It's a different game but the same principle applies because competitive games are somewhat universal in that way
>Now, I know some of you are out there like "But Dunkey, what about the 'pro players?'" Now, please understand this. Pro-League of Legends has absolutely nothing to do with actual League of Legends. The pros are in matches where all ten guys are amazing at the game and are perfectly coordinated in a way the game was never designed for. In REAL League of Legends, there's gonna be 3 decent guys and 7 retards. Characters are not buffed or nerfed based on how the best players play them but on how much the general public can bitch about someone being too overpowered.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 18:21:08 2020 No.6230804
File: 648 KB, 1200x1600, twelve-3s.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

My question to this guy is if you understand the character so well why aren't you getting results? A player like Bafael took Oro, a character most consider "unviable" and gets results with him. You act like you understand the game more then veterans who have played for decades.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 18:23:25 2020 No.6230805 >>6230804 There are a couple really good Twelve players, but they play up that they use him almost like it's a gimmick (which from a spectating standpoint it kinda is)

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 18:24:56 2020 No.6230808

>>6230787
>an admission that these characters are objectively better because it means you have to put in less effort to get the same results
some characters are less effort, some characters, again, are more difficult to understand, not technically more difficult to play
Twelve is relatively simple technically, but conceptually one of the more challenging characters because he requires using one's brain
braindead characters are easy; simple characters are easy
does that make them better? you seem to think so
>like he did previously
He was tweaked to work differently than he did before. Of course he wouldn't be the exact same.
An alternative scenario: they found the new Sean unsuitable to their preferred playstyle, and promptly switched to the simpler Ken.
>Because these are the people that actually keep the game alive
That's all well and good, but...
>More importantly it's representative of what the game is actually like.
This is a leap in logic. Players who are not skilled enough to exploit their characters and the game's mechanics to the fullest are somehow representative of "what the game is actually like", despite only reaching 50% of its potential. This is really silly.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 18:26:09 2020 No.6230810

>>6230787
>I'm just not a sperg
I'm really glad you brought this up, because I was just thinking about this and I think it's really important to mention it.
Here on 4chan, you accuse an opponent of autism when they have given more care, effort and thought to understanding the topic than you have, especially when they are wielding all this against you and you have little recourse to counter it. You can dismiss it all by ad hominem by making yourself seem above it all, despite the fact you chose to enter into the conversation in the first place. What does it matter that you cared enough to try to talk about it initially? They'll forget all about it once you try to make them mad by effectively calling them a nerd for taking something so trivial so seriously. When again, you really thought victory would be easier than it turned out, and this is your only way out without leaving utterly embarrassed. Again, you came here to argue, found yourself unmatched, and now want to pretend like it didn't matter to you. What does "autism" mean to you? It means "better informed", "less casual". It's just about peak intellectual dishonesty.
You are scum. You are worthless. You are trash. You are horrendously stupid, utterly incompetent, totally unfit for any serious debate or discussion.
I have nothing more to say to you, and you never had anything to say to me.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 18:28:54 2020 No.6230815 >>6230805 I ocassionally watch acho sets, there are definitely talented players who use Twelve, but those are the exception.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 18:29:00 2020 No.6230816

>>6230808
>does that make them better?
From a results standpoint, yes. Because at the end of the day, fighting games have no actual goal for the player than beating the other player. Tierwhoring can be called "cheap" but it is entirely playing within the confines of the game's rules.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 18:30:09 2020 No.6230817 >>6230810 Never thought I'd have to pull out a meme this old but watch out guys, we got a badass over here.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 18:31:57 2020 No.6230821 >>6230810 Cringe

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 18:35:21 2020 No.6230829

>>6230808
>Players who are not skilled enough to exploit their characters and the game's mechanics to the fullest are somehow representative of "what the game is actually like", despite only reaching 50% of its potential.
Yes, unironically because those are the people you'll be facing.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 18:38:51 2020 No.6230835
File: 7 KB, 110x122, 1580417719608.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Imagine actually being upset that people would rather choose to play good characters who are easy to play. In a game about winning choosing the characters that allow you to win most easily is the logical choice.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 20:36:58 2020 No.6230990

>>6230804
iirc kuroda thinks oro is higher tier than most consider him. and oro was always middling tier.

as far as twelve is considered, one of his biggest problems is his damage output. like his go-to move is a neutral throw. it's pretty sad. and he has virtually no combos. and some of his shit is parry-able both high and low.

it's a shame because he's otherwise a pretty interesting character

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 20:44:32 2020 No.6231000 >>6230990 *but ultimately player skill trumps shit matchups. a good sean can beat a bad chun with ease. the gap between those who can parry and those who cannot is pretty big

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 22:15:49 2020 No.6231123

>>6230835
I agree there's nothing wrong with playing good characters, but it can be fun to try and get good with bad or weird fun characters. When I played SF4 most of the time I'd main Sagat and sometimes or against some characters it almost felt like cheating. But when I wanted to really have fun I'd play Dan which was certainly harder but that made the wins so much more satisfying. It's one thing to know a guy corner fucked you with someone top tier, it's another when you do it to them with Dan or the like.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 23:09:39 2020 No.6231229 >>6231123 I think Dan is acceptable to be bad because he's a purposely bad joke character that exists to make fun of SNK. Him being bad is just part of the joke. That being said, he's not TERRIBLE in Puzzle Fighter, but he's not good either.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 23:19:07 2020 No.6231247

FGC destroyed modern fighting games, everything is overthought now with this "must wing at all costs" tourneyfag mentality. Fuck's sake there are people who downright dislike sexualized waifu characters now, it's like I don't even recognize the genre anymore.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 23:19:47 2020 No.6231249 >>6231229 Shit I meant Pocket Fighter. He's hilariously bad in Puzzle Fighter because he only causes red gems to fall on the other side which means you just need a single bomb to clear his move.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 23:20:51 2020 No.6231251 >>6231247 >Fuck's sake there are people who downright dislike sexualized waifu characters now I can assure you those people are completely separate from the tourneyfags because the tourneyfags still love some cheesecake.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 23:30:27 2020 No.6231275 >>6231229 >>6231249 He's actually surprisingly good in Puzzle Fighter because his damage is so high if you're able to set up a few decent combos you can swamp your opponent.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 27 23:39:18 2020 No.6231295 >>6231275 Yes but he's so easy to counter his red gems that even a casual player can do it.

Anonymous Thu Feb 27 23:43:39 2020 No.6231301

>>6231295
Only once they turn from garbage blocks to gems. If your opponent doesn't beat you quickly and you're able to build some combos in waiting you can cover them and then keep the pressure on to push a win. I used to consider him legit the best counter to Akuma who's got a great pattern but low damage.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 28 06:18:08 2020 No.6231726 >>6208275 my favourite character in it is shit

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 28 06:33:24 2020 No.6231738 >>6231726 They probably aren't and you're just taking uninformed opinions too much to hurt, while also not getting good enough with your character.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 28 06:34:24 2020 No.6231740 >>6231738 *to heart

Anonymous Fri Feb 28 07:05:13 2020 No.6231757

>>6229916
>Also it's one of those genres where if I'm not playing mostly every day I don't feel competitive
I understand what you mean.
>I just don't have the time for it these days
It's a heavy commitment game indeed, especially for the harder characters to play well.
>It's funny this was my go-to genre for so long, but I feel like I burnt out a little on '98 and '02 and then hated 12, 13 and ohh god 14 so much that KoF is slightly dead to me these days and no other fighter quite filled the void.
I'd try to help but I don't know why you played KOF so don't know what you're trying to get out of a fighting game.

Anyway, Elena obviously has decent range on her normals. While some can be laggy, they're not that predictable. Nevertheless, there's not a lot of excellent tricky ones to work with, as far as I can tell. Not enough overheads and lows.
What someone needs to do to succeed with her is harass with her normals to bait out mistakes, and then use her specials for any following situation. A jump in can be punished with the anti-air. A retreat with Rhino Horn. A low with her arcing kick. Excessive high blocking with her low leg swinging.
Because of her range, she's not that easy to hit. Her high jump allows her to get in on just about anyone, and she has pretty good aerials.
It comes down to how you can manipulate your opponent's thinking into doing what you want, and then punishing accordingly.

Anonymous Fri Feb 28 07:52:23 2020 No.6231827
File: 134 KB, 960x720, 1476756161736 - gold rhino.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Aihara (TW) vs. Karin (CH)
1,220 views
•Feb 26, 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTDXqhSogjw

More fairly solid Twelve gameplay demonstrating how you're supposed to go about playing him, aside from the obvious choke at the end. Should have been using more invisibility though.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 28 08:01:27 2020 No.6231839 >>6231738 my favourite character is twelve boy's a pisser

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 28 08:03:22 2020 No.6231843 File: 40 KB, 540x533, 1472960948413.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6231827 im not seeing any twelve here

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 28 08:09:01 2020 No.6231861 >>6231827 >>6231843 Thanks a lot for pointing that out. I had pasted a different URL into the space and accidentally copied that instead, basically. Here's the actual link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foawO2QDQz0

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 28 08:10:15 2020 No.6231863 >>6231839 Give the posts here a read >>6230680 He's a better character than you were led to believe.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 28 08:19:56 2020 No.6231874 >>6231863 listen here buddy ty

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 28 13:44:50 2020 No.6232458 >>6231863 If Twelve is so good and you're the only person that understands how to properly use him why aren't you blowing up nationals?

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 28 13:59:49 2020 No.6232485 >>6232458 You're the third or fourth person who've thought themselves clever enough to post this here.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 28 14:04:03 2020 No.6232492 File: 61 KB, 500x427, 1573582406562.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6232485 So why don't you, faggot? Is it because you're full of shit?

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 28 14:56:47 2020 No.6232570 >>6232492 >Is it because you're full of shit? I've given you my arguments, so you tell me.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 28 15:25:32 2020 No.6232609 >>6230798 >Characters are not buffed or nerfed based on how the best players play them but on how much the general public can bitch about someone being too overpowered. I'd say that doesn't apply to fighting games but look at SF4 Sagat after vanilla 4.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 28 15:29:08 2020 No.6232615 >>6232609 It's also what defines NRS fighters, they constantly patch and change the meta in their stuff instead of letting a meta grow.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 28 16:09:02 2020 No.6232701 >>6232485 Where was your answer, I'm not finding it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 28 16:26:17 2020 No.6232718 >>6210496 >parries ex fireball while invisible nutty

Anonymous Fri Feb 28 16:38:48 2020 No.6232740

>>6231863
No he's not you fucking goblin. Have you ever played against an actual good player? have you gone to any tournaments for the game? twelve is miraculously bad, people don't use xcopy because if the opponent just defends hard, they can fucking kill you once it ends, and without his other supers he never does any damage, even on a hard punish

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 28 18:01:17 2020 No.6232908 Is the ardent twelve defender man enough to see anyone on fightcade

Anonymous Fri Feb 28 18:05:42 2020 No.6232916

3rd Strike is overrated because it was all Capcom players had for like a decade so now that it's gone they talk about it like it was the glory days, when it reality the second 2009 hit the players collectively said "thank fuck that's over, finally something new"

Anonymous Sat Feb 29 01:15:27 2020 No.6233426

>>6232740
>twelve is miraculously bad, people don't use xcopy because if the opponent just defends hard, they can fucking kill you once it ends
You throw them across the screen before it does, or otherwise incapacitate them. And that's assuming you didn't kill them before it ran up, which you should have 8/10 times.
>without his other supers he never does any damage
Because you're supposed to be invisible and his pokes are supposed to add up over the course of using invisibility or otherwise zoning the opponent.

Anonymous Sat Feb 29 01:34:55 2020 No.6233443

>>6233426
>but what if you do this!
This is the fighting game equivalent of monday morning quarterbacking at its finest. Think of it this way, if Twelve is in fact secretly good, is there a single tournament in this game's entire history that was EVER won by Twelve? There's been a Q win, I'm pretty sure there's been a Necro win, and hell in 2017 Alex finally won one. You'd think that considering there are some good Twelve players out there, one would have won a major by now. Especially considering tournaments are where people play their hardest because of real stakes on the line.

Anonymous Sat Feb 29 01:37:43 2020 No.6233448
File: 74 KB, 322x361, 1540440610806.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6233443
>but what if you do this!
It's literally in the footage I've provided of now 3 different Twelve matches demonstrating exactly what I've talked about. It's not just theory, it's been put into practice, and you can see it happen. Perhaps your brain isn't working properly?

If you cannot even review all the evidence laid before you, then why try to argue about something? Just leave the thread already.

Anonymous Sat Feb 29 01:39:14 2020 No.6233450

>>6233448
>It's literally in the footage I've provided of now 3 different Twelve matches demonstrating exactly what I've talked about. It's not just theory, it's been put into practice, and you can see it happen.
Yes and you're specifically looking at the times it does work. What you're not seeing is every time it fails to work.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 29 01:41:54 2020 No.6233452 >>6208275 >Why do you believe 3rd Strike is imbalanced Because it's a fighting game >and overrated Because Capcucks overrate everything the company makes and call them Capgod any time they release something mediocre at best.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 29 01:49:48 2020 No.6233463 >>6233450 And here you're implying that it's not something one can get better at and master to the point where it hardly fails. It's clear you'll never be convinced no matter how much evidence is in front of your face.

Anonymous Sat Feb 29 01:55:39 2020 No.6233469

Twelve's primary advantage is that he has wierd as fuck hitboxes and no one has used him for so long that when you face an actually good player using him, you're at a knowledge disadvatage due to everyone having a lack of experience at fighting him. Hell there's so few players of Twelve that their opponents aren't even used to fighting variations of the playstyle since it's basically just fighting how specifically that person plays him. Learning how to play against 12 Mania's Twelve does literally nothing to teach you how to play against Yama because 12 Mania abuses invisibility while Yama barely uses it at all and focuses more on diving in.

>>6233463
>And here you're implying that it's not something one can get better at and master to the point where it hardly fails.
Which doesn't take into account the actions of the other player who can just straight up outplay you. This isn't Gill we're talking about where you can't do anything to stop them and there's no point in fighting back. He's invisible, not invincible.

Anonymous Sat Feb 29 02:10:11 2020 No.6233476
File: 295 KB, 838x720, gil drinking.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>6208613
>Yama
>He's not that great of a Twelve player. He doesn't quite understand Twelve himself.
Bull fucking shit, he's fucking amazing considering how far he's taken a character that the community has completely discarded. Does he lose a lot? Yeah, he has tons of matches recorded so we have the video evidence. He also wins a lot against people that aren't exactly scrubs. Just because he doesn't play the way 12 Mania does, doesn't mean that he does not "get" Twelve. If he didn't then he never would've gotten as far as he did and would just be known as the guy that drowns in pools every tourney because he uses Twelve "wrong". He clearly knows what he's doing and while Hugo players seem to be his kryptonite, he still does well.

Anonymous Sat Feb 29 02:41:24 2020 No.6233514

>>6233469
>12 Mania abuses invisibility while Yama barely uses it at all
And I'm saying Yama and basically every other Twelve player I've seen isn't playing him to his fullest potential; pull up any footage you want and see them playing at huge detriments because of this, or straight up losing due to it.

Twelve detractors, as I have acknowledged, are correct that his moves are low damage and so not rewarding, and slow so easy to block and parry and punish. But this state of affairs is essentially nullified by the use of invisibility. It ceases to matter that they are low damage because you will get multiple hits in unchallenged; it ceases to matter that they are predictable because the opponent can no longer see them coming.

And this is why it is so critical that his players take advantage of it and employ it diligently. And 12 Mania is the only one to do it so far as I've seen.

>>6233476
What I can say is, perhaps if he and they all were to use invisibility more, then the skill they've already accumulated with such a massive handicap would finally stop going to waste, and they could be truly amazing and finally change the perspective on the character for the mainstream; personally, I find Twelve to be fairly useable even without his taunt. But this is the kind of speculation I've avoided and haters ITT have tried to make my arguments out to be largely founded in, despite using someone who does what I say as my example.

e.g.

SFIII: 3rd Strike - Twelve [Yama] vs Necro [Tamu]
5,339 views
•Nov 29, 2011
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCguQ-PhrOo

Yama (TW) vs. Various
1,641 views
•Mar 3, 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_72l7o2Whn4
---
vs. Zabi (GO), Taihei (UR), Tamakon (DU), Atsugari (EL), Shigeki (CH), Naokiyu (Q), Goto (DU)

SFIII: 3rd Strike - Twelve [Moge] vs Ryu [Magu]
3,702 views
•Dec 1, 2011
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMJzG1KS-ZU

Anonymous Sat Feb 29 02:47:52 2020 No.6233517

>>6233514
>And I'm saying Yama and basically every other Twelve player I've seen isn't playing him to his fullest potential
He'd kick your ass. But that aside I disagree, I think that does the opposite and relies on overspecialization, which means it only becomes a matter of time that enough people are exposed to his invisibility spam that eventually they're just not going to let Twelve get a taunt off, or even more likely, they'll figure out how Twelve players fight invisible and learn how to counter it even against an opponent they can't see.

>and finally change the perspective on the character for the mainstream
Yeah no that aint happening, the game is dead, no one cares anymore.

Anonymous Sat Feb 29 02:57:38 2020 No.6233524

>>6233517
>He'd kick your ass.
It's not about me.
>I think that does the opposite and relies on overspecialization, which means it only becomes a matter of time that enough people are exposed to his invisibility spam that eventually they're just not going to let Twelve get a taunt off
You see Twelve's throw? That's when you're supposed to taunt; they can do nothing about it.
> they'll figure out how Twelve players fight invisible
You don't seem to comprehend the sheer amount of options Twelve has available to him at any given moment from any number of ranges. It's very difficult if not impossible for the opponent to be certain of what they're going to get hit with, or even have been hit with when it happens sometimes; and even then, a microsecond latter, Twelve can be somewhere else than where he would have been just then.
>learn how to counter it even against an opponent they can't see
Here's a thought experiment for you: How do you propose any character of your choice go about this?
>the game is dead
In the West, but who cares. The scene taken as a global totality, they currently do not matter.

Anonymous Sat Feb 29 03:03:28 2020 No.6233528

>>6233524
>You see Twelve's throw? That's when you're supposed to taunt; they can do nothing about it.
You can always just like, not get thrown.
>Here's a thought experiment for you: How do you propose any character of your choice go about this?
By being a badass
>In the West, but who cares.
By the same coin, why should I give a fuck what Japan is doing or thinks? I'm not Japanese.

Anonymous Sat Feb 29 03:08:35 2020 No.6233532

>>6233528
>not get thrown
I'll break the gameplan down for you.
You zone them out, or if you prefer as Yama does, rush them down until you happen to be in a close enough range to throw them, and then do it. And that's just as a general strategy; random opportunities to throw happen frequently.
Throws are going to happen, and if they don't, then that means neither combatant was close enough for it to happen; which could very well be a good thing for Twelve anyway.
>why should I give a fuck what Japan is doing or thinks?
Because if you want to see the best players and thus competition in the world, they're in Japan. If you don't, then you're surely a casual and none of this matters to you anyway.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 29 04:00:32 2020 No.6233567 >>6233532 >Because if you want to see the best players and thus competition in the world, they're in Japan. Yes but much like they as a people don't care about the world outside their isles, I don't care what happens there.

Anonymous Sat Feb 29 04:03:24 2020 No.6233572

>>6233567
It's different because this concerns a game you supposedly care about enough to come into a thread discussing how good it actually is. Again, if you don't care enough to concern yourself with Japanese 3rd Strike, you actually don't care enough at all.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 29 04:09:00 2020 No.6233576 >>6232908 10 hours and several shitposts later, the answer is no. I couldn't even get a (You) out of it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 29 04:25:45 2020 No.6233587 >>6233576 He's too busy picking cherries to actually play.

Anonymous Sat Feb 29 04:29:53 2020 No.6233589

>>6233587
>you need to play a game to be good at it
I've studied 3S across several, if I were to play I know I would be good.

Too many idiots here listen to players with results and reputations mindlessly, this is why no one but me sees Twelve's potential.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 29 04:33:05 2020 No.6233593 >>6233572 Of course not, I care about good games.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 29 04:38:12 2020 No.6233598 File: 210 KB, 1093x1099, 1474426969748.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>6233589 >pretending to be me

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 29 06:44:53 2020 No.6233682 >>6233589 You missed the perfect opportunity for a twelve themed navy seal pasta.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 29 09:00:22 2020 No.6233841 A lot of you in here post like you're 15 years old. I really hope none of you are grown men because this is just embarrassing.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 29 09:14:07 2020 No.6233857 >>6233841 >A lot of you in here post like you're 15 years old The fuck do you think this site is for? Enlightened basket weaving debate?

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 29 15:26:09 2020 No.6234543 >>6233841 Fighting games are a skill based genre, you can't exoect tbe people here to have any real knowledge of the genre.

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/vr/ - Retro Games