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/vr/ - Retro Games

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6197509 No.6197509 [Reply] [Original]

> Thief : The Dark Project (Gold Edition) [1999, Looking Glass Studios]
> Thief II: The Metal Age [2000, Looking Glass Studios]
> Thief: Deadly Shadows [2004, Ion Storm]
> Thief (Reboot) [2014, Eidos Montreal]

> The Dark Mod [2013 (Standalone)]

>> No.6197593


>> No.6197648

I think I would have said Thief Gold by a SLIGHT margin back in the day, but overtime I think Thief II has probably stood out as the better game by an equally slight margin, if only for having more thematic focus.

>> No.6197662

I heard also that the music and atmosphère of Thief: Gold and Thief II were incredible.

The 2014 one, is good in a technical pov but lost some of it's atmosphere.

>> No.6198130

Why did you even include the 2014 reboot? Not even worth pirating

>> No.6198509
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The reboot isn't even good on a technical level.

Thief 1, clearly.

>> No.6198671

To include a total list. I heard that 'The Dark Mod" is even better.

>> No.6198672

Based anon.

>> No.6199764
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>> No.6199849

Thief 1 had the better story. Gameplay is generally good, though it can be inconsistent. Final couple of levels are kinda trash, and the Gold levels are a bit too large.
Thief 2 had the weaker story. Gameplay is more consistent. Some levels like Trace the Courier and Casing the Joint are supremely underwhelming, though.

>> No.6199939


I mean they're great games, but

I mean, the levels are fucking huge. Its just arduous and you get turned around or you get just plain lost. This was the biggest hurdle for me. Sure its all about experimenting your way into whatever method works best to complete objectives, but I straight up stopped playing when I got to the mine/ crypt which is what- the second mission? The third? The game takes literally an hour or two to clear most levels and that's counting any hidden treasure or optional stuff to find.

>> No.6200178

>The game takes literally an hour or two to clear most levels and that's counting any hidden treasure or optional stuff to find.
Why is that a problem?

>> No.6200481
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What do people use these day to launch fan missions? The garrettloader site is dead.

>> No.6200548

Boy oh boy, Gold's quality really takes a nosedive after Return to the Cathedral. Almost makes me feel bad for shitting on Thieves' Guild before.

>get bitten by a mosquito

On the upside ending cutscene and credits were pure art, and Maw had some fun ideas that would have been cool as hell on any level that wasn't a linear corridor. How in the fuck is it possible that the person who designed the final two levels is the same person who created The Sword?

>> No.6200653

newdark patch does it itself, open cam_mod.ini and remove the ";" before "fm".

>> No.6200658

The only levels that took me well over 2 hours on my first attempt were Thieves Guild from TG and Sabotage at Soulforge from T2. Both levels are huge, with Thieves Guild being a bit too obtuse with its objectives, and Soulforge simply has a LOT to do.

>> No.6201235

Thief is peak atmosphere

>> No.6201253 [DELETED] 
File: 617 KB, 1280x840, thief_mgs.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

daily reminder

thief > metal queer solid

>> No.6201276

I like em both.

>> No.6201287

Rent free. MGS is so good that you need it to samefag bump your own dead thread of an irrelevant game.

>> No.6201445

Who the fuck cares?

>> No.6201636

You could tell that the devs of the reboot didn't have any respect for the originals. By Thief standards, its horrible. And forgetting that it's Thief, is very mediocre.
The goddamn tutorial mission pretty much sets the tone on how awful the writing is, too. No one is going to care about the death of a character, if literally all we got as a first impression is a whiny narcissistic brat who can't handle criticism.

>> No.6201978

I agree, go play MWF if you are not happy.

>> No.6201981

>The Sword
Anon, tell me more about "The Sword" and Maw.

>> No.6201984

>newdark patch
Where to go for all patches and Thief community?

>> No.6202675

And forgetting that it's Thief, it is still obsolete because Dishonored exists.

>> No.6202743


>> No.6203067 [DELETED] 


>> No.6203112 [DELETED] 
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reminder: thief > metal queer solid.

>> No.6203994

I love all three of the original games. To me Thief 1 has the best atmosphere, Thief 2 has the best level design (gameplay-wise) and Thief 3 has the best story.
I mean sure they have their problems (Thief 1 has a few really shitty levels like Escape!, Thief 2 can get a bit monotous with some of the samey missions and Thief 3 runs on a very janky engine), but none of these problems are big enough to ruin them.

>> No.6205814

I wish Thief 2 could have had a horror level.

>> No.6205829

I've only played Thief Gold to completion and Thief 2 starting levels and I got bored of it quickly. The rest I feel no need to play so I'd say Thief Gold is the best.

>> No.6205908

I kind of get this.
I mean that thief on a whole is really overwhelming your first time.
Levels are long, you're never prepared, you're always vulnerable, you don't know where objectives are, loot requirements can be nerve wracking, ghosts are spooky fucks, the basic gameplay can get extremely slow depending on how good you are. Levels are very freeform, lots of stuff you can do, but also lots of room for errors.
It's what both makes this series great, but also keeps casuals at bay.

>> No.6205913

Yeah, thief 2 really felt monotonous at points. Mechanisms and robots are cool and all, but variety is the spice of life.

I would have really wished that Thief 2 gold saw completion. It would have made Casing The Joint and Masks feel less terrible.

>> No.6205934
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hard to pick but for me thief 2 is a 9.9/10 and thief 1 is a 9.8/10
mostly >>6199849 sums up the slight 'issues'

>> No.6206093

I remember buying Thief 1 game box on a local shop in 1999.
One of the best gaming experience I have ever had. The others are worth mentionning but Thief 1 is the one.

>> No.6206434
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Say I just suck at mantling/jumping and they didn't put a fucking invisible wall on a roof. Please.

>> No.6206448

Disregard that, I suck cocks. No invisible wall, just kinda a bitch to jump up. Thank god.

>> No.6206672

If you had to pick one, it'd be 2 for being more mechanically sound and polished and with less flaws, but it's really inseparable from Gold. I'm a fan of both mysticism & grave robbing rogues AND steampunk political espionage

>> No.6208441 [SPOILER] 
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>> No.6209339

I really liked the looks of the robots in thief 2.
they were so creepy in-spite of being simple, largely ineffectual machines voiced by droopy dog.

>> No.6211364

Which is best faction, and why is the Hammerites?

>> No.6211398 [DELETED] 
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the virgin snake
the chad garrett

>> No.6211406

>law enforcing brotherhood of masons
Hammers are pretty based

>> No.6211775

I really love the first thief for it's esoteric bells and whistles

>> No.6211892

Nobody cares.

>> No.6212954
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>> No.6213249

I had to take breaks after finishing a level on my first playthrough because I felt tired for some reason

>> No.6213380
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I think the two original Thief games are taxing on new players because there is so many variables involved in actually completing a level.

Watching/listening for guards, managing and using your limited resources successfully, navigating around the level using the hand drawn maps, being incredibly vulnerable to actual death in the game from a myriad of threats and just the general situational awareness and immersion required.

brb booting up Thief now

>> No.6213386

>Unironically listing 3 and 4 into the contest
Even if we ignore they aren't retro, you just can't be serious. Especially not in case of 4

>> No.6213436

>Game forces you to think and plan
>This is somehow bad or tiresome

>> No.6213450

Taxing is neither bad nor tiresome, it's just what it is. Having to take a break between levels is only bad if you believe blasting through a game in a day or two is the only true way to play.

>> No.6213458

I'm not complaining, I'm just saying Thief is surprisingly demanding, I never felt like that when playing similar games like Dues Ex or System Shock

>> No.6213482
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Oh I'm not complaining.

Just my two cents as to why new players can be overwhelmed by the game. Hell my first play through was taxing, but in a good way. Made me want to keep pushing the envelope every level. Ended up having some great times.

>> No.6213542

I disliked Thief 1 for not being something like a Thief simulator and having to deal with supernatural shit.
I disliked Thief 2 for being too much of a Thief simulator and not having to deal with supernatural shit.

I fucking love both of these games.

>> No.6213967

Thief 2 was more of an espionage simulator.

>> No.6214035

Thief 2's second half was a boredom simulator

>> No.6214087

Thief 2's biggest problem was a lack of variety.
Thief 1 had town levels, industrial levels, tomb levels, horror levels, and otherworldly levels. Each of these styles had at least two levels, and some levels could even qualify as being multiple styles.
Thief 2 was mostly town and industrial levels, with like one tomb level (which was human populated anyway, so it barely counts) and one otherworldly level. Didn't even have a single horror level. Also doesn't help that level design is reused in a few missions.

>> No.6214764

thief 1. The final stage of thief 2 outright disqualifies it from being the best thief.

>> No.6214772

What? Soulforge was awesome.

>> No.6214963

Not that anon, but in short, The Sword involves you infiltrating the mansion of a reclusive and somewhat insane nobleman to retrieve a special sword for your patron. It's haunting, atmospheric, becomes gradually more and more deranged and unhinged from reality, and has some incredibly distinct sub-areas. One has the feeling you're stepping further and further away from the conventional world as you progress further into the mansion. Like traveling deeper into a fairy wood, you might say. And there's a LOT of fun themes tying the level together with a lot of the overarching motifs of the game.

>> No.6214964

Life of the Party has got to be a high point for me, level design wise. Almost the entire thing was the level for the Demo of Thief 2. Had me hooked very quickly.

>> No.6215018
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Constantine wanted us to fear and to dream. He was the unsung hero of the Thief franchise.

>> No.6215221

it rivals thieves guild as one of the worst missions in the series

>> No.6215238

>And there's a LOT of fun themes tying the level together with a lot of the overarching motifs of the game.
Such as?

>> No.6215371

Give reasons

>> No.6215414

It's unnecessarily big and absolutely fugly. The level mostly consists of huge empty rooms connected by short tunnels. Few landmarks, which is particularly bad given the size of the mission. Everything looks the same, with rooms often using a single texture and maybe machinery thrown in for decoration.
Robots, KO immune npcs, cameras and turrets are haphazardly placed throughout the mission and the bad (and often buggy) lighting and liberal use of metal floors make it a very annoying mission to play. Got spotted by a camera? 5 more robots have just spawned in lol, have fun. It's like the basement of the bank mission except much, much worse.
The objectives are a poor excuse for a fetch quest and have you running back and forth the level for hours to the point of being irritating. A lot of the criticisms directed at thieves guild apply to soulforge as well, and more often than not soulforge does an even shittier job, but some people give it a free pass because it's meant to be a "test of your skills and everything you've learnt up to that point".

>> No.6216150

>but some people give it a free pass because it's meant to be a "test of your skills and everything you've learnt up to that point"
Not him, but while it's definitely a massive undertaking of a level, I reckon it is perfectly justified for the final level to be exactly that. And I certainly found Soulforge a much more memorable final level than Maw of Chaos because of it.
Thieves Guild is a lot worse IMO, because it's in the early half of the game, and isn't even story relevant whatsoever. It basically feels like an FM that was randomly inserted into the campaign (And hell, that might as well be the case, considering it was one of Gold's additional missions).

>> No.6216158

Neither is Thi3f but people think it is great now that Thiaf was so shit.

>> No.6216159

Thief 3 was always polarising.

>> No.6216429

Thief 3 with all the mods and community patches available nowadays isn't that bad, the Cradle is one of the best horror levels of any game and I generally like the idea of the open map, both things thi4f tried to ape but failed miserably at both.

Thief 3 isn't anywhere near the first 2 but it's still a decent enough game to warrant a PT.

>> No.6216964

Wrong, people started calling it Thi3f after Thiaf released. It was always a good game with a bad engine.

>> No.6217652

even ttlg of all places was shitting on the game at the time of its release

>> No.6217664

there were also shitting on good games like quake, deus ex, half life, hitman, doom, nolf, max payne.
So fuck them.

>> No.6217682

Can't speak for English communities, I wasn't visiting any back then. But on my country's largest video game forum you'd get ridiculed for saying anything positive about the game. It was the general consensus that we don't talk about TDS.

>> No.6217829

TDP (non-gold)
The new gold missions are shite

>> No.6217843

Everyone in my peer group despised TDS as dumbed down consolebaby trash from the moment we played the demo. The shitty lighting, the shitty tutorials, the loot glint, it was all shit.

>> No.6217886

Thief II. It improved upon the first in terms of level design. It is hard to go back to Lord Bafford's Manor, since you end up seeing that half the manor is completely empty and devoid of anything. Ramirez had a bunch of pointless empty closets. Thief: TDP was a good start, I especially like the creative ideas of being a Thief, but it works more as a buildup to II than a game I really enjoy in its own right.

There are less horror missions, but I feel like the moments were stronger in Thief II. Gervasius' library feels more eerie than Return to the Haunted Cathedral, which quickly becomes sort of lighthearted with Murus. Trail of Blood holds more atmosphere.

Another massive gripe I have with Thief Gold is the overuse of hidden items. Undercover is literally about the hidden buttons, once you know where they are the level barely has any reason to replay it outside of the glitchy nature of it. The fire poker in Ramirez's, the loot requirement of Haunted Cathedral, the entire fetch quest of Murus, the Thieves' Guild and that bracelet. Cragscleft having the map in a hidden area, the torch puzzles which had no Fire Shadow prior to Thief Gold, the Builder's Chisel...

Thief II is a lot more direct most of the time in its objectives, focusing on something very apparent but being hard to get. Framed is almost entirely a sandbox where you just need to frame Hagen, First City is almost entirely a sandbox where you just need to get into the vault. Blackmail is very straightforward in getting to the top, Kidnap is just about capturing a moving objective. Life of the Party is very clear in things to do. Ambush is just about avoiding guards. Usually it is just about accomplishing some objective while avoiding the heavily lit up areas, which makes it more fun for those who hate hidden objects like myself.

Thief: TDP also had a more buggy engine with rope arrows from experience. The Lost City is a nightmare since rope bugs could kill you frequently.

>> No.6217942

I've been fucked by buggy rope arrows in Thief 2 plenty of times, sent flying to my glitchy death in the process. Rappelling down from the rafters to grab the masks in Masks to name one instance. In both games, sometimes, it just doesn't like the placement of the arrow and your angle of approach, I guess.

>> No.6217995

I have heard about this buggy nature varying from person to person. For me, it is Thief Gold, and it makes levels that require any rope arrows (Autumn on Lampfire Hills) a frustrating mess. I hate save scumming, yet there are many a level where you need a good number of rope arrows, one of which is bound to kill you. Meanwhile, the reliability in Thief II means I can enjoy things even if they require climbing a rope.

Never had issues from the rafters in Masks. Granted, I really loathe Masks. I hate the library hunt in particular, Gervasius' library has such an eerie atmosphere, but it is ruined at the same time by making it very unclear as to what you are looking for or if there is even a goal to be had. The broken text, the narrow secret corridors having clunky movement, the general lack of ambient sounds... but rope arrows was never a reason I hated that level.

It is hard to determine what Thief does and doesn't like for rope arrows. When the wrong position sends you flying off a tower in The Lost City, and takes an hour without saves to get to that location, it can become quite the headache. The Sword has Little Big World, which also becomes a headache for similar reasons.

Who knows, Thief II might be a lot more of a miserable game for me if I experienced rope bugs all the time.

>> No.6218007

Senpai, quicksaving before you jump on a rope will not condemn your soul to eternal damnation.

>> No.6218012

Senpai, I have felt too much shame with saving to the point that I avoid the save feature as much as I can. I feel anything less is a shameful display that would invalidate my playing. Save scumming nerfs the challenge of any game.

>> No.6218018

That is all well and good young grasshopper, however the purpose of self-imposed rules is to enhance fun, not get in its way.

>> No.6218025

That is a relatively good point to make and probably why I end up becoming miserable in most games. I end up trying to 100% complete them and yet I hate trying to find hidden objects, which leads to a lot of misery. But in the case of saving, it is a slippery slope from not doing it at all to doing it every few seconds out of fear of making some slight mistake.

I tend to disagree with the ghosting mentality as ghosting usually means save scumming. A good part of the fun of Thief is trying to fix a situation after shit has hit the fan and alarms are blaring. Especially in missions like Assassins, where you get extra length and more challenge from causing more issues. Ghosting ends up becoming too rigid, save scumming would just make the game too exploitative.

>> No.6218029

>It is hard to determine what Thief does and doesn't like for rope arrows
To me it seems like it likes to send you flying if you try to approach the rope arrow from the top and go down it like you would in real life. Most of, or probably all of the problems I've had with rope arrows has been while trying to go down. I find it's consistently best to try and drop down on the rope from another position and grab it while you're falling.

Sometimes I'll have this other problem too where I'll be climbing a ladder and Garret can't quite get over the top and gets stuck. So you think 'Oh I'll just jump and mantle the ledge here' but no, he bumps himself off of the edge and falls, taking damage or just dying. Other times it just works. I don't know why.

I don't mind saving before doing some of the acrobatics in these games.

>> No.6218047

About ghosting I agree with you completely. However protecting yourself against bugs and janky gameplay is just common sense. They happen, you will die to them, it's a fact of life. Better have a save you can fall back to and avoid the pain. Here's an idea, unbind quickload. You'll be less tempted to break your rule if you have to go to main menu.

>> No.6218373

If I'm hating the first mission in the Gems of Provenance campaign will I hate the rest? The first mission is precisely how I hate undead to be used; thousands of creatures in a nonsensical labyrinth that the player is better off sprinting past if he values his time in his quest to find the macguffins. I'm not going to finish it but I'll skip it if the others are better designed.

>> No.6218390 [DELETED] 
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thief > metal queer solid

>> No.6218435

go back to playing city missions brainlet

>> No.6218438

I'll take that to mean the rest of the campaign is also trash, thank you for saving my time.

>> No.6218603

I recall enjoying Thief 2 the most.

>> No.6218626

say what you want about Thief Deadly Shadows, but it's aesthetic really does something for me.
That really weird transition in 3D game graphics between 2000 and 2004/5

>> No.6218647

>Run and gun
>Run backward and gun
Yes, those games sound a lot like Thief, definitely good comparisons

>> No.6218651

Get new material. You are reposting this shit in every single Thief and MGS thread. It's nost just stale at this point, it's fucking tedious

>> No.6218673

Thief 2 is just generally more polished than the first game and the fantasy elements of 1 are overrated. Deadly shadows plays much better than it used to post-patching and with better hardware available for cheaper. I get how on launch it was a disaster but 16 years later it's pretty good. 4 is just a boring stupid mess.

>> No.6218771

Bafford and Ramirez's houses are fucking kino my dude.
This guy doesn't get the use of NEGATIVE SPACE

>> No.6219457


>> No.6219670 [DELETED] 

What are some more interactive things you would like to see in mansion? When you, for example, enter the dining hall, what do you do? Just grab the loot and move along? Look and appreciate the brushwork? What else would you like to see?

>> No.6219673

What are some more interactive things you would like to see in mansion?
When you, for example, enter the dining hall, what do you do? Just grab the loot and move along? Look and appreciate the brushwork? What else would you like to see or do?

>> No.6219761

If it's just a plain old mansion I'll grab the loot, maybe check for secret switches, then move along. If you want me to do anything else you have to construct your mansion in a way that tells me something interesting about its owner, preferably accumulated knowledge I can make use of at some point. A mansion is an intimate reflection of a wealthy owner's personality and personal life. Tap into it and be creative, because no amount of solid layout, loot and enemy placement will save it from a nagging feeling of the dull deja vu of playing yet another mundane burglary level.

>> No.6219828

>16yo motherboard fries literally right after beating Eclipsed and Garrett dooms the world


>> No.6219934

If at any time time I feel compelled to stop and comtemplate the brushwork or the position of random objects on the map that usually means I'm bored out of my mind and the author failed to create an engaging gameplay.

>> No.6220596

It sends me flying a good deal of the time even when I am trying to climb up a rope. The tower in the Lost City is a prime example of a location I dread. The chair in Little Big World. I think my issues tend to be more with ascending than anything.

Oddly enough, I have never had problems with ladders. I always hear of people struggling with ladders that aren't used to late 90s FPS mechanics, but I never really understood the massive gripe with them since I am fully immersed in the era. No glitches at all with ladders. Now doors on the other hand can be evil if you are trying to lean.

This. Thief can be very demanding. Say you load up a game like Quake, you expect the level to be over in a couple minutes. Thief on the other hand tends to be a lengthy investment.

Personally, I enjoy the length of the levels. I find levels that can be completed in a few minutes to be almost like popcorn. You are out of it just as you start, you barely have time to get immersed.

I don't understand the logic about Thief being a game you can get lost in. In fact, these are similar statements I would make for something like Doom or Duke Nukem. Those tire me out and are so confusing in the layouts to make it hard to bother. Thief is a late 90s game focusing on furnished rooms that generally have a sort of theme to them. One room usually does not look like another, I am unsure how one gets lost.

Hidden objectives and loot is an absolute frustration. I find almost every game ends up stressing me out due to the inclusion of hidden things. Thief can be demotivating here depending on the level you play. Since Thief is far more complicated than a game like Quake, this means there is a lot more people can do in fan missions to make it frustrating. When it works, it can be great. When it doesn't, Thief FMs can be the biggest headaches, due to things like obtuse mechanics, hidden objectives, or broken functions that require looking on TTLG to find it isn't you.

>> No.6220614

You know, that is a logical idea. I think I had less issues with saving and getting upset by it when I didn't know about quicksaves. Definitely something I think I will try more in the future.

I have found a fun alternative to regular ghosting is to treat levels in the sort of manner you would treat Casing the Joint. 2nd level alerts are not busts, only if they see you, which means you can do things like fire arrows to divert attention away from an area. Makes a level like Lord Bafford's Manor get a bit of new life in it without it becoming a "nudge on tile floors" fest with save scumming. Granted, I generally am not much of a ghoster unless I know the mission by heart; Thief's tendency to hide loot works counterintuitive to having rules like being unable to slash banners or enter rooms filled with a lot of security since you might get a 2nd alert.

Perhaps it was that I started on Thief II when it came out and played Thief Gold due to being a fan of the latter, but I felt the empty space led to more uninteresting areas. Ramirez in particular had an obsession with empty closets. I also felt the Burrick pits were very barebones. Some basic furniture, a bit of loot, something could have helped. The Rumford Manor just was far more appealing than either of theirs.

I am pretty much the opposite. I love moving slow and getting immersed in the world. I tend to get very interested in looking at level geometry, noting things like if torches aren't on walls. I hate moving fast through things. At the same time, I am possibly one of the worst at finding hidden objects. If you hide something, I will likely get frustrated by it, spending at least half a day trying to find it. Eventually I end up fearing if it is broken, look it up, and hate myself all the more for looking it up if it wasn't broken (which is always a coin toss in itself).

>> No.6220989

Been trying to get into Thief 2, but I'm not having a lot of fun. I just finished "The first bank and trust", and so far my missions typically go like this;
Kill/disable every enemy, give out concussions to all 'innocents', looting everything in sight along the way.
Mark doors I can't pick.
Clear out all rooms for loot+secrets. complete objectives, lots and lots of backtracking.

I dunno guys, does it get better? The FMV sequences and story are pretty cool(I especially liked how it rewards you for paying attention), but holy shit, most NPC voice acting is horrible "OI'LL GIT YUU TAFFUR!!", "OI'LL SEE YER BOWNS!(someone was paid money to write this)". Which actually compliments their braindead AI rather well; I've let to encounter a human enemy that can't be beat by walking backwards and mashing m1.

Am I just playing wrong? Am I supposed to wait for guards to patrol, stealthily pick their pockets, then sneak past them and however many cameras ahead? I tried that, and it leads to a level of savescumming bordering on savestate abuse, and wasn't really fun anyway.

>> No.6221252

>Am I supposed to wait for guards to patrol, stealthily pick their pockets, then sneak past them and however many cameras ahead?
Technically yes, though I've never had that much playing it that way, either. Thief is, at its core, actually not a very deep game and the moment you learn the various ways you can exploit the AI, the illusion of stealth and any notion of challenge go out the window. I think it's particularly noticeable in Thief 2 were devs just decided that "ghosting" is the correct way to play and made the level design accommodate for that gameplay style resulting in easier, more streamlined missions that rarely put the player out of his comfort zone. You can also see this in FMs. Rather than come up with ways to make the gameplay interesting again, most authors are happy just to throw you into a gigantic, barren maze with the objectives usually being a variation of "explore everything and find all the loot".

>> No.6221725

Journey to the underdark is such a neat FM but the lighting is fucking atrocious.

>> No.6223620

As a self-proclaimed expert on the subject, I can say with clarity that you are incorrectly playing the game and thus not optimally experiencing the content.

So, first you want to restart the bank while buying every last explosive known to man, then you want to stealthily move around the outside. Find a good entrance, get inside, then proceed to find the nearest camera. Jump up and down in front of it until it starts making a bunch of noise. This noise is important, it will cover your footsteps and allow you to be stealthy.

Use your sword more. Don't rely upon the lockpicks unless you are absolutely out of resources, bash down wooden doors with your sword or use explosives on metal doors. This might cause some guards to come running to help you properly unlock the door, which can allow you to knock them out with your sword. If they are still flinging their weapons around near you, almost seemingly seeing you even though you are hidden and thus safe from their vision, they are obviously not unconscious.

If you encounter robots, you should take out your blackjack and begin beating the combat robot. Just keep moving in circles around it so it can't hit you. Your blackjack is also useful for knocking out things that aren't guards, though it might require more work since then you need to hide the body in some river or down a flight of stairs.

Find some rats. Kill the rats. Throw the rats at opponents, this shall make them flee from you. If they keep coming, throw more rats.

Once you have accumilated 30 bodies, bring them to the entrance. Launch a fire arrow into them, this shall allow you to gain favor with the Woodsie. Choose the third option from the dialog menu, this will cause you to get a boss battle. Just run into him and start beating him with your blackjack. If he still is trying to kill you, he isn't dead. Once that is done, you should win the mission.

>> No.6225085
File: 2.96 MB, 2124x1376, fire_shadow.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>> No.6225108

I hate Thieves' guild so much.

>> No.6225125

It's not... that bad. Just very long. And very boring. And really overstays its welcome. And fuck backtracking, and sewers, and whoever thought it was a good idea with a rake. Other than that it's decent.

>> No.6225147

>fuck sewers
I watched The Third Man precisely to understand Thieves' Guild better... it still sucks

>> No.6225413

Thieves Guild is better than the Mage Towers. That level is a fucking nightmare since the air tower platform can entirely disappear at any time, resulting in you needing to replay the entire level. Combine that with giant sparse areas of nothingness, rope climbing, a door that permanently locks with no key if a certain NPC is alerted, and the level being so time consuming that it makes Thieves Guild seem quick; it basically results in a level that is absolutely painful to touch. I dread the Mage Towers any time I try to play through the game, since it becomes a mad rush for the air tower before the platform gets glitched, then just traveling lengthy distances while having little to really do. Loot is pretty much concentrated in one area, the hedge mazes are entirely useless, it is a terrible level. Great idea, terrible execution.

>> No.6226286

God I hate Undercover. Fucking Hitman wannabe

>> No.6226351

My main gripe with Undercover is having to manage traffic jams in those narrow corridors. Similar issue with Escape! where everyone and their mother get stuck on the terrain all the goddamn time. I don't think they had much time to test those final levels.

>> No.6226574

>That level is a fucking nightmare since the air tower platform can entirely disappear at any time, resulting in you needing to replay the entire level.
I've played through Mage Towers several times and didn't even know that was a thing. Shit must suck.

>> No.6226580

>Hitman wannabe
Thief TDP predates Hitman by 2 years.

>> No.6227186

That's not an excuse

>> No.6227193

I bet you hate Assassins too because it's a pathetic Trace The Courier wannabe.

>> No.6227197

Just use a toaster you taffing consolepleb

>> No.6227201

Not that you mention it, I like Assassins, but half of that map is an empty town with nothing to do in it. Wasted potential.

>> No.6227628

The city section in assassins is focused entirely on the kind of gameplay the game was actually designed to provide; you tail the thugs on your way to the manor and after you're done there you evade the guards so you can get back home. It's well paced, it's fun and it makes sense in the context of the mission.
The mission would have been much worse off had the devs decided to go for the sandbox approach and turn the city into the focus of the mission. You'd end up like most current FMs these days. An empty town with nothing to do in it except aimlessly wandering and looking for spots to place a rope arrow so you can maybe find +15g and continue the mindless slog. Wasted potential (and also not fun).

>> No.6227635

to be honest, I wonder if the city part of assassins could be expanded for the portion where you're making your break from Ramirez.
A mad dash back to the starting point, chased by guards and trying to grab everything you can on your way back.

>> No.6227675

That makes sense when you look at that mission alone. When you look at it as a part of the game, then it fails. I'm talking about the game that's full of secret passages, secret compartments, hidden loot for which you have to crawl, jump and tarzan your way through.
I'm talking about those hidden, bonus section of the maps, like in the Bonehoard, little world in the Constantine's Mansion, Lost city, etc. After replaying those missions, you go back to Assassins expecting to find something similar, thinking that in a map that big there has to be at least one enterable house with something in it, at least one secret door or a tower that you can climb.
But there is nothing - the whole city segment serves as 10 minutes long, linear, escort-like mission, that could have easily been just a 15 seconds long cutscene, and nothing of value would be lost.

>> No.6227727

>I'm talking about the game that's full of secret passages, secret compartments, hidden loot for which you have to crawl, jump and tarzan your way through.
Ramirez' manor (aka what the mission is about) has plenty of that.

>But there is nothing - the whole city segment serves as 10 minutes long, linear, escort-like mission, that could have easily been just a 15 seconds long cutscene, and nothing of value would be lost.
Did you even play the mission on anything other than normal? The whole mission is building up to the moment the alarm is tripped and you have to traverse the city again except with a ton of guards on the lookout for you.

>> No.6227754

Difficulty is irrelevant, most players still never see what happens if the alarm goes off.

>> No.6227765

>Ramirez' manor (aka what the mission is about) has plenty of that.
So that's, what, about 50% of the whole map? Let's make it 60%. So there is 60% of the map with content, and 40% that is just cardboard scenery that serves no purpose. Still seems like a wasted potential to me.
>The whole mission is building up to the moment the alarm is tripped and you have to traverse the city again
Tripping an alarm is optional. You can complete the mission without tripping any alarm, although additional guard will span as soon as the Ramirez' bag is snatched. And you don't need to traverse the city again, the mission ends as soon as you leave the Ramirez property.

>> No.6227779

My main gripe is that there just isn't much stealth going on in the mission. Most of the gold is concentrated in one room, the guards tend to bug out and murder you for walking on stairs or something, and the main challenge is in the form of a button hunt that is frustrating the first time and an annoying hindrance on replays. The main thing I like about Undercover is that it is quick, so I can get past the terrible level and get to something more fun.

I never really had issues with pathfinding in Escape. When it comes to pathfinding, nothing is as horrible as Burricks can be. The Haunted Cathedral can be a clusterfuck due to burricks getting stuck on lamp posts.

>> No.6227786

>and 40% that is just cardboard scenery that serves no purpose.
It serves its purpose as a gameplay setpiece. Game is about evading enemies, you evade enemies, simple as that. Exploration is incidental, it's not "content" per se. Without enemies to evade there is no point to it.

>> No.6227817

>cardboard scenery
Ironically, I don't like Ramirez's mansion, but found the city pretty appealing. I enjoy the different routes that can be taken. I always intentionally trip the alarm just so I get to wander the city with guards looking for me. Something about the soundtrack, the expansiveness, and the large amount of guards makes it quite nice.

This. This is why I find most fan missions frustrating or miserable. Either they are tiny little red button hunts, which are generally hated, or they are nightmarish wander through the city and find the one spot to stick a rope arrow missions. Thief is at its best when you have opponents to evade, a direct challenge and some tenseness to the situation. A lot of FMs feel like just a bunch of setpieces with little in the way of opposition, which in turn means a total lack of challenge outside of finding the hidden area.

I wish there were more fan missions like First City Band & Trust. Loud floors everywhere, highly lit up with a massive number of guards, and the goal being pretty obvious but a struggle to reach. In fact, a big difference I find in Thief: TDP and Thief II is that the latter tends not to rely on rope arrows or hidden locations, but more on alarm systems and a large number of opponents.

>> No.6227836

But you aren't evading them, you are following them. When I'm in position to evade, that's when I'm in control, when I get to decide should I just clubber the guard or sneak past him. Here, that's all taken from me, all I can do is hold W and pause once in while.
City segment is just a variation of those dreaded escort-type missions. You are left at the mercy of the npcs, they dictate the rhythm and the direction of your movement. It's linear. In a game known for it's non-linearity, it should've been a cutscene.
On your first run, it's bearable. It even breaks the pace, keeps you on your toes, not knowing what exactly to expect from the next mission. But nonlinear games thrive on replayability, and for me, this linear segment that I cannot skip, that I have to slug through every time, although I know what the final destination is, kills my will to ever replay the Assassins from the starting point.

>> No.6227874

I saw it on Steam the other day, I'll give it a try.