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/vr/ - Retro Games

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6174746 No.6174746 [Reply] [Original]

I think games aging is a subjective term, you might not find a game you played back in the day fun anymore, but someone who plays it for the first time today might find it fun.

>> No.6174746,1 [INTERNAL] 

games have something called replayability in other words they will always be fun to play,games aging well that's real and something quite known,3d games from old times look like shit while 2d games still look good and barelly age.

Would you play a 3d game from 95 i doubt it but anyone would play a nintendo 2d game from the 80s or 90s but 3d well people won't play those because they look bad,for example the only way i have to play counter strike 1.6 is because i have mods with high quality models but otherwise i wouldn't play it.

Why you think nintendo made the famicom mini,the super famicom mini but refuses to make a n64 mini is because nobody wants the n64 mini.

Why ou think neogeo made a portable mvs.

>> No.6174851

It's a fine concept where most people understand the spirit of what you're trying to say and don't have an issue with. This is the only place on the planet where people get asshurt because — I don't fucking know, they think people are saying the games themselves are literally aging, or something? when anyone without a developmental disability knows it has everything to do with our own perceptions, it's just a turn of phrase.

>> No.6174865

>>6174746
I agree with this,I recently got into the Gold Box games and while it took some time to used to I eventually stated loving it, it's like watching an older or foreign film, you gotta adjust yourself to their pace.

>> No.6174896

>>6174851
>the spirit of what you're trying to say
How about figure out what you're trying to say instead

>> No.6174914

>>6174851
Failure to understand colloquialisms and taking things too literally is one of the surest signs of autism. And knowing /vr/, well, that should explain it.

>> No.6174916

>>6174746
It's more complicated. Artistic inspiration is a kind of continuum and the way you perceive things can be influenced by later things which were inspired by it.

Horror movies like The Exorcist or Alien illustrate that effect pretty well.
Both were considered some of the scariest shit ever yet are tame as fuck today, because all the new ideas they brought to the table served as the basis for later generations of cinema.

That doesn't detract from their original value (and their legacy actually magnifies it overall) but you can't expect a piece of media to have the same impact when your initial exposure to it was like... a Simpsons parody of it which exists because of the cultural impact of that thing.
In fact, the more culturally valuable something is the more likely you are to have its impact spoiled to some degree by derivative works.

Unless you grew up in some kind of laboratory, Mario 64 ain't gonna be your first 3rd person 3D platformer. No matter how well something holds up you can't preserve sensations of novelty or awe.

>> No.6174972

>>6174851
This. "Aging" simply means a game (or book/movie/artwork/media/whatever) is no longer in the specific cultural frame of reference during which it was conceived.

Every creative work "ages", some well, some not-so-well. Only the autistic mouthbreathers on this board would get their hackles up because they think people are saying that games are literally no longer the same as they were when they were released, because their fucking smooth brains only have one stored definition of "aging".

>> No.6174973

>>6174746
Wow, you're some kind of genius.

>> No.6174996

When people say that games age, they usually mean one of two things. Either the games get outclassed by later titles, or they're talking about how we change. Your surrounding environment and the people around you primes you into acting in certain ways and making certain decisions. People in 2019 just act different than people in 1989.

>> No.6175000

>>6174996

As an example, seeing a shot of the Twin Towers in a movie is going to elict different reactions from you depending on whether it's 1980, 1994, 2002 or 2019.

>> No.6175037

Games age as standards improve. FPS without mouselook. Limited life systems directly ripped from cynical, shekel-grubbing arcade games. Illogical animation-less contact damage. Password saves. 20 minutes of unique content gated behind trial and error level design.

These things are shit, and as vidya improved, it left those elements in the dumpster where they belong. There's a reason that the most beloved retro games have few of those design flaws.

>> No.6175048

>>6174916
>Unless you grew up in some kind of laboratory, Mario 64 ain't gonna be your first 3rd person 3D platformer.
Huh?
It literally was mine.

>> No.6175064

>>6175037
That's not a linear process.
Conventions form for a lot of reasons. For example in the past few years nearly all console FPS games and even a lot of third-person titles have fallen into lockstep with using the exact same button mapping: it eliminates a learning curve so everything has the same pick-up-and-play quality.

But within the scope of any given game that's not actually an improvement. The immediate benefit is a trade-off with immersive effects that can come with playing around with control schemes. But as an increasingly codified industry convention, that ceases to be an active decision developers are making.

There was an era when you had to re-learn how to play every game and you'd just fucking stomp your friends for the first fifteen minutes they held the controller. But that's not evidence of standards improving; to think that you have to ignore that the way we played games was fundamentally different; all your bros were on the same couch and the loser of each match had to suck the winner's cock for three minutes between games while the other two cheered and gambled Pogs on whether you'd come

>> No.6175132

>>6174851 >>6174914 >>6174972
>Why do people treat me like I'm retarded just because I say retarded things? It must be that autism!

>> No.6175136

>>6175064
>Hey, I've got a great idea for a wacky post to make and screencap for /r/4chan!

>> No.6175138

>>6174746
>you might not find a game you played back in the day fun anymore, but someone who plays it for the first time today might find it fun.

That's not what it means and we've been over this. If you're too stupid to understand how English works, stick to another language.

>> No.6175151
File: 804 KB, 1027x1294, agedbadly.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6175151

>>6174896
He doesn't need to figure anything out. Saying something aged well or badly is a common term in English and he's using it normally. If you can't understand that's no one's problem but your own.

>> No.6175397

>>6175136
You sound like you spend so much time on Reddit that it's broken your mind.

No, my point was sincere, but I trailed into a joke because I realised I was over-explaining what seemed like a fairly evident point. In retrospect I gave you too much credit.

>> No.6175497

>>6175151
>old book scans prove I'm right
It couldn't possibly be that professional critics have always tried to dress up their arbitrary opinions as meaningful insight.

>> No.6175506

>>6175397
>I trailed into a joke because I realised I was over-explaining what seemed like a fairly evident point.
I'm struggling to picture what combination of hardware and software failures could leave you unable to just edit your post before submitting it.

>> No.6175562

>>6175064
>it eliminates a learning curve so everything has the same pick-up-and-play quality
Removing a pointless learning curve on something as basic as controls is universally good. Learning curve should come from the gameplay and the challenges presented, not the control scheme.

>> No.6175572

>>6175562
Do you also say a game has "aged poorly" if you have to learn to set up an emulator or find a discontinued system to play it?

>> No.6175573

>>6175497
You mean like you're doing right now

>> No.6175590
File: 73 KB, 630x611, 1567309799168.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6175590

>play game as kid
>spend hours searching every level for secrets
>play game as adult
>rush through each level as fast as possible

>> No.6175595

>>6175573
Okay. It's my subjective opinion that saying a creative work has "aged well" or "badly" conveys nothing useful but the speaker's level of self-awareness. Now what?

>> No.6175598

>>6174746
When they say a game has aged it usually means it's not appealing to a gamer with modern tastes and expectations.
I would think most retro gamers have enough self-awareness to realize when they're simply bored of a game.

>> No.6175603

>>6175598
>When they say a game has aged it usually means it's not appealing to a gamer with modern tastes and expectations.
So, a zoomer.

>> No.6175608

>>6175603
Old people can also play modern games and get jaded enough to not find the 256*8 identical copy-paste planets in Elite particularly captivating

>> No.6175612

>>6175132
Not really sure why you made this post. I feel like I hurt you somehow.

>> No.6175626

>>6175612
>dude who hurt you lmao
An unassailable argument.

>> No.6175629

>>6175562
>Removing a pointless learning curve on something as basic as controls is universally good.
zommer detected

different control schemes aren't all exactly equivalent.
the way you interact with a game has distinct design implications. all aspects of the interface do.
the feeling of a command mapped to a shoulder bumper vs a face button vs a stick click are all different. The adjacency/proximity of other commands matters too both to the actual physical availability of commands (this principle has an actual name in interface design which I forget right now) and the player's mental mapping of their connection with their character.
The physical mechanics are also relevant: some controls physically mimic an action, the obvious examples being shoulder triggers to fire guns, or bumpers to "hold" an item (VR games in particular make extreme use of this). Beyond that those mechanisms also relate to mental mapping: stick clicks are somewhat exclusive with analogue stick use, also they're possible to hit in a panic and depending on their function may need to be treated with care, or not. Or an extreme example might be inverted analogue movement in flight simulators.

you're also incorrect in thinking that removing learning curves is universally good. There are lots of design reasons to need to train or re-train players, and the placement of deliberate impediments are a core concept in learning.
If you were right then all games would eventually trend towards being perfectly identical

you're so wrong it's kind of ridiculous actually. I could go way more into depth but you're just gonna herp and derp anyway

>> No.6175636

>>6175626
for there to be an argument you would have had to successfully refute/debate something in one of those posts

>> No.6175648

>>6175629
That's a really long way of saying "good controls bad!". Very cringe.

>> No.6175654

>>6175612
Begone, tourist.

>> No.6175656

>>6175572
If you set up an emulator (anyone with a triple digit IQ can follow a guide and get the most complicated RA config done in minutes), you're good for an entire platform. That's not an individual game issue.

>> No.6175658

>>6174746
early 3d games!

>> No.6175660

>>6175654
was that supposed to be an insult

>> No.6175675

>>6175636
Like what, exactly? "When I say something stupid and inflammatory, you should assume I really meant something totally vacuous"?

>>6175648
>dude cringle lmao

>>6175656
And when you learn a game's controls, you're good for every game that uses the same controls. Is having to learn things to play a game okay or not?

>> No.6175690

>>6175648
touche how could i possibly contend with your zoomer magic

>> No.6175695

>>6175648
>really long
Exterminate all phone posters.

>> No.6175712

>>6174972
>is no longer in the specific cultural frame of reference during which it was conceived.

Right, and complaining about this is beyond idiotic. Of course times change. If you can't try and see things with regards to how they were, and instead expect them to align with some preconceived notion set by modern trends, you are a fucking moron.

>> No.6175759
File: 116 KB, 378x370, 1531862202498.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6175759

Most of the time "it hasn't aged well" just means "it's old and I don't like it, but instead of giving thoughtful criticism and articulating why it's not particularly engaging, I'll just write it off for being old"

lazy non-criticism

>> No.6175762

>>6174916
Comes to mind hearing my grandpa talk about how night of the living dead was some scary shit back in the day (the old black and white one) but I watched that when I was like 10 and find it a casual movie to play in the background and not scary at all but just a fun entertaining flick. So what was scary to some before is entertainment value to others now. I'm sure people will say the same about modern horror movies in 30-40yrs when everything is in a holodeck type setup and it feels and looks real to them.

>> No.6175764

>>6175759
This.

>> No.6175767

>>6175506
stop being a buttfag over jokes you unhumorous queer

>> No.6175780

The idea that games don't age because if you found it fun back in 1985 it is because it IS fun is the same as saying a hobo saying trash food is tasty means the food IS tasty. They didn't know any better.

>> No.6175782

>>6175759
Literally this. Code doesn't age.

>> No.6175789

>>6175767
>admit your post was shit
>still get mad at people who question why you posted it

>>6175780
Good thing we have zoomers like you to tell us what we really enjoy.

>> No.6175795

>>6175780
People like you should be sterilized. It still baffles me how after all this time zoomers still don't understand shit and keep coming up with new ways to embarrass themselves.

>> No.6175818

>>6175762
>I'm sure people will say the same about modern horror movies in 30-40yrs
It only takes maybe two years for a movie's innovations to be rendered kinda obsolete by a new movie which builds on them. Probably even less.

Actually all the shit we made during the indie games explosion (I mean that little golden age around when Cave Story became a hit) is probably the best example of all.
Back then people were making super shitty little games, like jam stuff especially, that had like one totally novel gimmick. And people dug the fuck out of them because the novelty was refreshing. I can think of some that were RIDICULOUSLY popular, you wouldn't believe me if I told you the metrics. It didn't matter if they were short or ugly.
But by now, all those ideas have been assimilated by the rest of the industry. Shit, Nintendo even stole a gimmick directly from one of my games. And now there's no reason to play any of that stuff anymore. They "aged" out because they were always crap with an expiration date and the rest of the medium benefited from that.

>> No.6175868

>>6175789
>>6175795
>if he doesn't like my shitty games he must be a zoomer
Ask me how I know you are a butthurt 30 year old.

>> No.6175881

>>6175868
>How could you think I'm a zoomer? You must be some ancient worn-out 30-year-old!
Is this bait?

>> No.6175890

>>6175048
ey I should have been more explicit. It was for me too. But I meant with the thread topic in mind, that's not something you could recapture if you were hypothetically playing it for the first time today.
I remember pissing off my family the first time I played because I spent like an hour just jumping back and forth in the castle lobby because it was cool as shit to mario around in 3D. That's a first-time appeal you can't feel too many times and when you (or most of the audience!) associate it with a particular game it changes the way you can appreciate it.

>>6175818
>a movie's innovations to be rendered kinda obsolete by a new movie which builds on them
For me an interesting recent example was Joker.
It's a... really heavy homage to one of my favourite movies, The King of Comedy. Which I guess most people haven't seen because people were sucking Joker's dick for things which it drew *directly* from Scorsese.

I liked it a lot, but I knew watching Joker that I wasn't getting the full impact because of that. However Joker is also made in a throwback style so that it stacks up neatly next to King of Comedy (unlike anon's example Night of the Living Dead which has also stylistically and technically aged) so I bet someone who saw Joker first would probably feel that way about King of Comedy.
I should note that I'm talking about plot points and themes here, but it applies to the whole craft (the first time you see a dolly zoom used can't be repeated, or like Dorothy opening the door to Technicolor), same for games.

>>6175789
You replied to someone who isn't me, trying to apply a personal attack, and trying to pretend multiple people have a problem with my post when in actuality multiple people are telling you to shut up. Premium butthurt.

>> No.6175901

>>6175881
Project harder. Boomers are over 40 years old. You are not a boomer and never will be.

>> No.6175905

>>6175759
This is true sometimes. A lot of times the game simply hasn't aged well, especially noticeable when it comes to the user interface, or simply because a game that was good back then is completely outclassed nowadays.

>> No.6176076

>>6175901
boomers are 60+ tho alot of people seem to think boomer = 30+

>> No.6176079

>>6175890
>a poster should only reply to one other poster
>there can't be multiple people on both sides of an argument
>personal attacks are out of bounds in a thread who's second post identified dissenters as having a "developmental disability"

Are you trying to say that "aged poorly" actually means "was so staggeringly innovative in its time that it overshadowed its actual quality"? i.e., actually a positive rather than a negative descriptor, and literally nobody ever uses the phrase otherwise?

>> No.6176085

>>6175901
Congratulations. By sheer luck you have correctly guessed that I'm not in a particular demographic minority.

>> No.6176089

>>6175497
While it's certain they do that it's beside the point.

>> No.6176096

>>6175595
>It's my subjective opinion that saying a creative work has "aged well" or "badly" conveys nothing useful but the speaker's level of self-awareness.

It's fine that's your opinion, but it's a poor understanding of what the phrase conveys and whether or not you ever understand that is inconsequential to the rest of the world.

>Now what?
You'll keep bitching, most likely.

>> No.6176097

>>6176079
>>a poster should only reply to one other poster
Nice deflection. I mean, shit deflection.
You were speaking to others as if you believed they were me. Not in an ambiguous way.
Because you don't understand how anonymous imageboards work. You fucking idiot.
There used to be a link to Shii's whitepaper on every single page of the site specifically because of idiots like you.

>> No.6176102

>>6176089
What is the point, if not "this use of 'aged badly' in an old book proves it's never used as a lazy attempt to dress up opinion as fact"?

>> No.6176106

>>6176079
Wow you're actually conflating even more people even after it's pointed out to you. Including people who aren't even in the same reply chain.

>there can't be multiple people on both sides of an argument
You say this like someone who isn't acting like they think every single person in the thread who disagrees with them is the same person.

Ironically I'm perfectly prepared to believe that each and every one of the really dumb posts itt are you

>> No.6176107

>>6176097
>You were speaking to others as if you believed they were me. Not in an ambiguous way.
Right. I'm sure I'm the one here treating different anons as the same person.

>> No.6176112

>>6176106
Your lack of self-awareness about your ability to distinguish different posters, while simultaneously criticizing that of imaginary composite people, is indeed ironic.

>> No.6176116

>>6176079
>>personal attacks are out of bounds in a thread who's second post identified dissenters as having a "developmental disability"
Damn, could you out yourself as any more of a Reddit tourist?
Pro tip this paranoid schitzophrenia shit and obsession with identity on an anonymous board don't go together flatteringly.

>>6176112
This "I'm rubber you're glue" gimmick you keep pulling is a pretty pathetic gambit.

>> No.6176125
File: 86 KB, 825x464, street-fighter-main_0.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6176125

>>6176102
It's just one if many ways of stating an opinion and the way something's standi g has held up over time.

Good examples are street fighter 1 versus street fighter 2. Street Fighter was amazing when it came out bit ultimately primitive and over time aged badly. Street Fighter 2, even it's first versions hold their own today to a remarkable degree so it's said to have aged well. E.T. Atari for another example was seen as the shor it was when it came out so it didn't really age badly, it's just bad.

I post that book scan because it's just a random example of the word being used in that context. It's not explained what "aged badly" means because it's assumed the reader understands the depth of meaning various words have. If you, or whoever don't meet that standard it's not my problem but I also won't dumb down my vocabulary to baby you.

>> No.6176147

>>6176125
Are you *sure* you understand the difference between "standi[n]g" and quality? It still seems like you're flipping back and forth between them.

>> No.6176170

Its this thread and the i dont enjoy games anymore thread that i just dont understand, theres so many people here rigorously defending there deconstruction of the the entertainment they enjoy if your into this hobby and really enjoy it wouldnt you build up the activity maybe have a theoretical conversation on immersion and how that plays out in the brain, the connection between what happens on screen and your mind, physics and effects that you swear you can feel? conversations like these is what i would think would take place here but its almost always these basic bitch logical views like

>>6174916
This are just so agnostic and existential in there reasoning and so common place here that i really wonder if most gamers really enjoy games.

>> No.6176192

>>6174972
But the cultural frame can shift and whats considered old becomes new again, its not really what your saying that i think pisses people off here its the attitude and the pure scientific infallibility that you express that after while of hearing can REALLY change someones feelings on a piece of entertainment. theres real studies on this as well your more likely to agree with a critics views on a movie having read a review before seeing it then watching it and having not read a review

>> No.6176201

>>6176147
It's nuanced sure. What's important is you understand the full meaning of how the word is used so you don't say something retarded like "you might not find a game you played back in the day fun anymore, but someone who plays it for the first time today might find it fun".

>> No.6176207

>>6175497
Not just critics but everyone does that, it takes a level of self awareness that alot of people dont have to realize wheb they are or aren't doing it

>> No.6176210

>>6176201
I'll stop saying it when I'm convinced that people understand it.

>> No.6176212

>>6176207
Well everyone wants to give insight as to what formed their opinion and makes them think it's right.

>> No.6176216

>>6176210
I would love to stop saying it, but threads that star like this make it clear they don't.

>> No.6176217
File: 1 KB, 400x400, miss-the-point.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6176217

>>6176212
I dont have the strength

>> No.6176230

>>6176217
Maybe I'm just too used to ignoring the opinions of others.

>> No.6176235

>>6176170
You gotta be reading something into that post that ain't there, anon. What about it suggests anything like what you're complaining about?

Recognizing that novel pieces of media sublime back into the medium, or that awe can have a unique connection to context, doesn't detract from the appreciation of games.
It's kinda magical that artistic inspiration is a multidimensional thing that feeds back into itself. Sometimes you had to be there, but that potential doesn't disappear: it helps create the things that you *were* there for.

The capacity for critical analysis and things like deconstruction deepen your understanding in ways that can also deepen your appreciation.
And that's the sense that the people who create games need in order to be able to analyze and synthesise new works effectively. It goes hand in hand with the type of discussion you prefer, if you like those to be actually meaningful.

>> No.6176236

>>6175712
We should look at how things are perceived in modern times because we fucking live in them. Pong was revolutionary for its time, but by today's standards pong sucks dick. Chrono trigger was revolutionary at the time and even today after multiple playthroughs its still a great game. I'll recommend people play chrono trigger over pong even though pong was more innovative for its time because I'm not a fucking sperg.

>> No.6176260

>>6176236
What's wrong with Pong? It's pretty fun, especially when drunk with friends.

>> No.6176359

>>6176235
Yes but those conversations never take place deconstructivism is in its popular form is just a way too prove to people that there is no inherent value or meaning in anything. we inherently in life take things apart of that which we dont like, which again thunder strucks me as weird as for it to be happening in a place with presumably people who enjoy the same activity, what i think that might really be is that 1. This is very popular and very trendy post modernist thinking. 2. It is i think very very easy to to take apart and minimize things for the average or below average person

>> No.6176378

>>6174746
No games can age. Mechanics and QoL stuff introduced in sequels can make earlier games tougher to play. Aging doesnt make or break a game though. If a game was bad due to "aging" then it always was bad.
Take Soul Hackers 3DS and compare it to an older SMT entry like 1 or Persona. They're all great games it's just Soul Hackers has an overall better presentation and "flow" (due to the second screen) than those two despite having pretty similar gameplay and ideas that people complained about in the earlier games.
If that makes sense.

>> No.6176423 [DELETED] 

>>6175759
Alot of bad criticism also just comes from someone not being good at a game so they blame game watching a few lets plays really opened my eyes to it the game suddenly becames "janky" or "unclear where to go" once they face one challenge that that takes the slightest amount of effort its so weak and pathetic.

>> No.6176432

>>6175759

Alot of bad criticism also just comes from someone not being good at a game so they blame the game. watching a few lets plays really opened my eyes to it, the game suddenly becames "janky" or "unclear where to go" once they face one challenge that takes the slightest amount of effort its so weak and pathetic.

>> No.6176672

aged is an extremely lazy way of saying thins shouln't be played or bothered with, it even doesn't make sense.

>game supposedly has aged and is 20 years old
>play it for the first time even though never played it before
>no problem with the game in anyway

>> No.6176954

>>6176359
Sounds like you have a specific axe to grind but you're mostly projecting by connecting it to anything itt.

>> No.6176957
File: 37 KB, 924x499, 1517300719062.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6176957

>>6174746
Games aging is not a meme, not a buzzword---it is an actually real phenomenon. Anyone with a brain can easily understand what it means; it's only casuals and lowbrows who confusedly insist its meaningless.

What it is in fact is a game no longer close to the standard of gaming in the present day---aesthetically, gameplay-wise, or both. This standard could be industry-wide, exclusive to the genre, or even amidst the developer, franchise, or series. As newer games improve upon what came before them, those forebears become less and less impressive in light of a gamer's whole options. Games not aging is an assumption made in ignorance of the fact that one knows and recalls what else they could be playing.

Largely, what was once upon a time remarkable has become blase when stacked alongside their followers. Games are not meant to be appreciated historically, relatively---but absolutely, in terms of what they offer now and for the foreseeable future.


By no means is there implying here that gaming is always on an upward trend; the last two generations (and apparently this upcoming generation) has made this abundantly clear. Nevertheless, it must not be ignored that many "newer" games have reproduced the experience older games had, but improved upon in significant enough ways to make it difficult to enjoy the old with the same feeling of awe, amazement, respect, and above all contentment.

It's the nature of human achievements to all one day erode. Perhaps certain games will not be surpassed for years, decades, or centuries, but experience dictates that so long as the industry still exists, it will always happen eventually. One day, there will be a better Seaman. One day, there will be a better Shenmue. One day, there will be a better 3rd Strike. One day, there will be a better Starcraft. Their time hasn't come yet, and so they continue to stand out as marvels even in the current age, regardless of what the landscape was like then, long-since past their heyday.

>> No.6177674

>>6176957
It must be exhausting to be unable to tune in and enjoy something on its own terms without constantly worrying that there's something "better" you could be enjoying instead.

>> No.6178480

The complaint that a game has aged poorly is only valid when referring to a game that was praised on release for reasons unrelated to its actual quality (e.g. having fancy graphics or impressive technology, or being part of a trend) and then years down the line when those reasons stop being relevant, people realize it was never as good as they originally thought.

>> No.6178512

>>6177674
It's not even like that. It's the same way with movies, movies that were remarkable for the time are now soured because they're plot points have become overused and uninteresting cliches because other movies have done what they did better. Although movies are probably a bad example considering that hollywoo shits out maybe 4 new ideas on a good year.

>> No.6178649

>>6178480
do you really believe this or are you trolling or is this just some idea you have in your head that you felt like farting onto your keyboard even though you're not sure about it

>> No.6178694

>>6178649
Yes, now do you actually have any concrete objections to what I wrote?

>> No.6178736

>>6178694
i mean clearly i had to narrow down what you were actually trying to say first
you being defensive like that right off the bat isn't a good sign that you think your cool opinion can actually stand up to scrutiny though

i've already written several long posts itt which undermine what you said so why don't we try something different
like how about you read the thread and respond to the conversation developing in it rather than hit-and-running with your half-baked jazz

like i ain't trying to shit on you, but it's clear you didn't read anything before posting, so do you think there's a single thing you expressed which can whether the points that have already been expressed

>> No.6178953

>>6175132
Why are you being argumentative? We talk about games here.