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/vr/ - Retro Games

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6150971 No.6150971 [Reply] [Original]

>game about going fast
>every zone after Green Hill has so many obstacles and surprises that going fast is basically suicide
What was Sega thinking?

>> No.6150974

They weren't.

>> No.6150991
File: 56 KB, 1280x720, Special-Stage-Sonic-the-Hedgehog-2-2013.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6150991

The entire Sonic franchise should have been replaced with the special stages. Prove me wrong.

>> No.6150992

>>6150971
sonic was never about going fast, that's a misconception that the team currently believes which has resulted in games that basically play themselves

>> No.6150997

>>6150971
>>game about going fast
>>every zone after Green Hill has so many obstacles and surprises that going fast is basically suicide
playing fast =/= playing brainless

>> No.6151012

>>6150991
I mean they basically are this
the whole boost mechanic renders any other gameplay moot

>> No.6151096

>>6150971
>game about going fast
Fuck you troglodyte, we got Sonic Forces because of people like you

>> No.6151124

I heard someone on here say that Sonic games aren't about going fast, they're about "pinball physics". It struck me as a brilliant insight when I first heard it.

>> No.6151130

>i-it's fast if you memorize the levels and speedrun it!
So is every SMB.

>> No.6151145

>>6151124
God you’re dim

>> No.6151159

>>6151130
No fucking shit! You don't know any obstacle that's coming when you are playing it for first time. These old games were meant to be replayed over and over again.

>> No.6151167

>>6150991
The special stages got worse in part 2 & 3. Sonic 1 has the best special stages. I had to use cheats just to have all the chaos emeralds for part 2 & 3.

>> No.6151179

>>6151124
bump = jump

>> No.6151195
File: 12 KB, 355x389, wellsaidfren.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6151195

>>6151124
I've said that before, but it's a common statement.
Sonic is fun because the physics feel good. You can go fast but it doesn't mean you have to.

>> No.6152061

>>6150971
Where did the whole "game about going fast" meme come from? Was it Sonic 2? Blast Processing? There is a lot of slower platforming in Sonic 1 - 3. It didn't become a "gotta go fast" game until Sonic R or Sonic Adventure.

I suspect it was around Sonic 2 though - the marketing was focused on the speed the game could scroll at etc, and a lot of people played the two player race mode.

>> No.6152131

Hahahahahahahaha How The Fuck Is Unfair Obstacle Placement Real Hahahaha Nigga Just Roll Like Nigga Press The Down Button Haha

>> No.6152294

>>6152061
it happened in the newer games, adventure like S&K had a lot of exploration, which isn't possible if you speed through levels

>> No.6152320

>>6152131
Based

>> No.6152325

git gud

>> No.6152368

>>6150971
Star Light Zone is kino

>> No.6152442

>>6152061
I grow up with the original Sonic games and I never enjoyed them because of "going fast" nor I remember magazines talking too much about it. I still liked the parts when Sonic went very fast because back then it was amazing and you had never seen anything like that in videogames, at least in platfformers. Anyway, some commercials focused on the speed of Sonic, but it was more because it showed the power of the Mega Drive than because that was the right way of playing those games.

>> No.6152458

>>6151167
Agreed. Sonic 1's were somewhat fun. Blue Spheres is somewhat OK, but the halfpipe is just miserable.

>> No.6152462

>>6152061
It was always part of his marketing.

FFS, the opening lyrics to the old cartoon are literally "Blue streak speeds by, sonic the hedgehog! Too fast for the naked eye, sonic the hedgehog!"

>> No.6152463

>>6150971
The game is fine aside from Marble Zone which practically ruins it right at the very beginning.

>> No.6152473

>>6152462
Americanized adaptations that have no fucking clue about what Sonic is about beyond the most shallow of perceptions.

>> No.6152515

>>6152473
I wasn't posting that as a source, I was posting that as a dick slap to people who act like his speed was something new.

>> No.6152518

>>6150971
The requirement to go through 1-1 at the start of any SMB play session is the reason Green Hill Zone was designed to be run through. The rest of the game is not focused entirely on speed.

>> No.6152551

>>6150971
Literally what part of the games say they're "about" going fast? If you're going to quote the Sonic X intro you might as well say that Mario is about "shaking your arms from side to side."

>> No.6152592

>>6150991
If it were an arcade game, maybe. Also
>Sonic 2 half-pipe
No.

>> No.6152765

>>6152462
Yes. Because he's fast. Can you wrap your head around there being a game character who's gimmick is that he's fast but exists in a world where things try to slow him down?

>> No.6152773
File: 37 KB, 680x383, sonic says.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6152773

>>6152551
Funny post desu lol

>> No.6153082

>>6152765
What are you trying to argue exactly

>> No.6153092

>>6150971
>game about going fast
>isn't actually about that
WHAT WERE THEY THINKING

>> No.6153128
File: 49 KB, 640x401, big tv.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6153128

Maybe you could make a sonic game that was actually about going fast if you had people play it on a really wide TV, so had enough time to react when you need to jump.

>> No.6153132

>>6153082
That SEGA didn't trick anyone. Yes, Sonic goes fast. That the game doesn't allow you to go fast constantly isn't a flaw.

>> No.6153137

>>6153128
I'll say it once more; Sonic is the one franchise that needs to go open world

>> No.6153153

>>6153137
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1CEN5gVs5Q

>> No.6153213

>>6153132
I never argued otherwise?

>> No.6153215

>>6150971
it's not easy being rad

>> No.6153221

>>6153153
Reminds me of a game I saw once where you play a figure in a desert, and you have to build momentum to get on to a suspended roadway, then in to a city, then up to the top, but I can't for the life of me remember what it's called.

>> No.6153315

>>6153128
or just play the 3D games

>> No.6153317

As I get older the more I agree with the statement that Sonic was never good.

>> No.6153324

>>6153317
You never grew up.

>> No.6153332

>>6153324
No I just recognize the flaws that keep our from being a good game.

>> No.6153334

>>6153332
Being bad at a childrens game is not flaw.

>> No.6153337

I never liked the Sonic games because the physics felt like they were meant to go fast, but the actual challenges were mostly precision platforming, which isn't necessarily bad but the physics sure as Hell weren't built for it.
This whole "but going fast was just a marketing gimmick! He was never ACTUALLY about going fast!" is the next generation of cope, though. To be fair, I don't think this ever became a problem until Sonic 3 started fucking with the player all the time and had tons of traps should the player dare to go fast without memorizing the level.
The reason the Sonic games are the way they are is because if you build a game around going fast then playing it optimally means that the game is going to be over very, very soon. It's also a pain in the ass to build assets and enjoyable maps that are going to be sped through in maybe a minute, tops. So ideally, you want to throw roadblocks in the player's path as much as possible, punish the player for not memorizing the map, and then promote repeat playthroughs so the player doesn't feel gypped of $40-$70, however much AAA games cost back then.
There's a reason that this franchise is associated with the autistic.

>> No.6153338

Zoomer cope.

>> No.6153345

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0TQUQKJE1Jw

>> No.6153350

>>6153337
>"but going fast was just a marketing gimmick! He was never ACTUALLY about going fast!"
Sonic games allow you to go fast or take your time. It's both, and the player gets to decide how they want to play.

You massive retard.

>> No.6153351

>>6153350
Cope.

>> No.6153354

>>6153351
Not an argument.

>> No.6153358

>>6153354
I can beat a ton of levels in Doom and various other shooters by ignoring enemies entirely and just running past them as fast as possible.
It doesn't make those games about enemy avoidance.

>> No.6153551

>>6153345
i'd rather replay games that are actually good a billion times than sonic

>> No.6153668

>>6153350
But speed is the only thing that they have going for it. What is a Sonic game played slowly? A poor man's Mario.

>> No.6153725

Is this, dare I say it, the dark souls of 2d platformers?

>> No.6153785

>>6153725
Watch the video an anon attached above and see how journalists back then complained about Sonic being very easy. I also thought they were easy games back then, except the bonus stages, although that didn't stop me from completing the games and I was 10 or 11 years old.

>> No.6153826

>>6153345
boomer cope
>wah zoomers don't understand that why people say it sucks
no it fucking sucked in 1992 same as it does today

>> No.6153828

>>6153345
I've never noticed that the "replay value" metric had vanished from game reviews until that video just brought it up.

>> No.6153832

>>6153785
You said it, back then.
People now seem unable to hold down and press jump sometime.

>> No.6153835

>>6150971
its more about learning the layouts of the stages with more reapeat playing, console games had that arcade attitude.

>> No.6153846

>>6153835
And funnily enough when a game on a Nintendo console does it people affectionately call it "Nintendo hard," but when Sega (or any non-Nintendo-affiliated company) does it, it's a bad things and it's why it always sucked.

>> No.6153958

But it's an easy game, the fact that you can't see where you're going is balanced by the fact that it's impossible to die

>> No.6153981

>>6153213
Then what were you trying to argue? What was the point of this thread and bringing up that speed was always in his marketing?

>> No.6153987

>>6153358
Do you get any pleasure out of running past enemies as Doomguy? Is running past enemies Doomguy's specialty?

No?

Then your analogy doesn't work. There's a REWARD for being able to avoid obstacles in Sonic the Hedgehog, and the reward is--gasp and surprise--going really fast. Or you could take your time and explore.

>> No.6154152

>>6153826
stay mad zoomie.

>> No.6154153

The real answer is to play as Tails or Knuckles so you have some control during high-speed platforming. Sonic is for when you actually know what you're doing.

>> No.6154154

>>6153551
see>>6154152

>> No.6154221

>>6153668
>poor man's Mario
filtered

>> No.6154550

>>6153846
The difference is flying through a level as Mario is added onto the experience, it's something that you learn to do over time that isn't advertised to you. It also helps that it's fun to play without going fast.
In Sonic, the precision platforming is usually frustrating, and going fast, the feature advertised to you, is reserved for memorizing the levels.

>> No.6154808

>>6153668
The level design and physics in the Sonic games are radically different and offer something not only different than Mario, but a game worth having.

>> No.6154819

>>6154550
imagine having shit reflexes.

>> No.6154887

The thing about Sonic is that speed is supposed to be a tool. Sometimes you need to use it and sometimes you don't, it depends on how good your skills/reflexes are and how much you know about the level. 90% of the time when people complain about Sonic having "too many surprises" is because they tried to brute force their way through the game.

>> No.6156539

Sonic 1 is fantastic if you don't suck at video games

>> No.6158481

>>6156539
I legit love Labyrinth zone.

>> No.6158495

>>6150971
>game about going fast
Sonic was first and foremost a platform game, the gotta go fast mentality is what ruined this franchise and the reason why we now have a glorified Temple Run in mechanics and level design

>> No.6158963

>>6150971
>>game about going fast

well, yes and no. It was about going fast in that it was inspired by ghouls and ghosts where you pretty much had to go fast and dodge things to beat the game. In that way, it succeeded. The game does move along much faster than G&G.

But it was never about just burning through the game. That idea came from US marketing teams that only played the first level fo the game. They saw it as a cool and edgy way to look better than Mario in the eyes of kids.

Though ironically, anyone worth a shit at Mario games also plays them for speed.

>> No.6158976

>>6152061
>Where did the whole "game about going fast" meme come from?

Commercials for Sonic 1 or 2 I think. Stupid 90s edgy shit.

https://youtu.be/jR98zOj0yiw

Its right there. About going fast. In the first zone of the game.

>> No.6159032

>>6152551
>>6158976
His name is Sonic. You have to be pretty dense to not realize that his speed is a major part of his intended appeal.

>>6153132
Most of Sonic 1 is pretty slow. There's a difference between "can't go fast constantly" and "can hardly ever go fast even if you're skilled". Hell, a lot of the platforming involves waiting around, which is generally a bad idea even if you're not designing a game where speed and momentum are the whole point. Overall it's still a pretty good game, but the idea that it holds a candle to the other classic titles doesn't hold much water.

>>6153337
The solution, then, is to just design a game where playing optimally isn't likely to happen on a first playthrough. Sonic 2 and 3+K did a good job of this: There are enough places for even a new player to enjoy Sonic's top speed, but if you want to keep the momentum going throughout a stage, you need to practice/git gud.

>> No.6159037

>>6153668
>A poor man's Mario.

except Sonic's level design is infinitely more complex. Comparing the look and feel of the world of Sonic to Mario is like comparing Blade Runner to Hello Kitty.

>> No.6159063

>>6159032
>but the idea that it holds a candle to the other classic titles doesn't hold much water.

those being?

Mario 1 3, and Sonic 1-S&K are the best platforming games to exist. That is an objective fact. To say otherwise means you are blind, deph and/or barely have working thumbs.

>> No.6159105

>>6159063
When I think of "Classic Sonic", I usually think of Sonics 1, 2, 3&K, and CD. Of course, the classic era as a whole is basically everything pre-Adventure and certainly contains some other enjoyable titles, but those four/five games (depending on whether you view 3 and S&K as one game) are what I'd call the peak -- which I don't exactly think is an especially hot take or anything.

But I'd definitely put 1 and CD a tier below 2 and 3&K. Like I see them as very strong 8/10's as opposed to some of the absolute best 2-D platformers.

>> No.6159117
File: 57 KB, 609x273, time.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6159117

>>6158976
Sonic was designed with speed in mind. This speed comes from practice and experience. People confuse this with expecting to be racing along like lightning their first time.

>> No.6159182

>>6159105
>CD

you know, I don't think many people who hate on sonic for not really being fast have played sonic cd. Sonic CD is fast to the point of becoming a flaw. It has these huge fucking levels where you're running and zipping all over the damn place. And the levels end up being nonsense as a result.

>> No.6159242

>>6152131
>>6152320
samefag

>> No.6159251

>>6159037
that's not what level design is you dunce

>> No.6159391

>>6159251
it's having a level that speeding through in subsequent runs is as fun as the first time

>> No.6159414

>>6153221
Zineth?

>> No.6159458

>>6159182
Really? It's been a while since I've played CD, but I remember it being very much slow and methodical compared to the other classic titles, even relative to 1. The levels are huge, but with a few exceptions, they're less built around slopes where you can build up speed except in the designated areas where you're meant to time travel.

>> No.6161382

>>6159117
They basically expect the game to play by itself. I reckon lots of them are mesmerized by those auto sections in Chemical Plant zone.

>> No.6161428

>>6159182
>>6159458
You'd be surprised how quickly you can get through stages when you don't have to hunt down the robot generators/50 rings.
Sonic CD had its unlockables hidden behind Time Attack for a reason.

>> No.6161464

>Sonic isn't about going fast!!!!!
Okay retard, I guess they shouldn't have marketed as the FAST alternative to SMB for a decade+ then.
What a fucking pathetic defense. The only thing more mediocre than Sonic is its fanbase.

>> No.6161484

Sonic level design rarely tossed you into hazards or enemies. You would be slowed down by an uphill climb, a ramp, a wall or some other method, all easily avoidable and reactable if you wanted to maintain your momentum. If you get hit frequently, it's because you're a dumbass. 90% of the enemies in the games can be destroyed from any angle, and Sonic's jump attack is nothing but a floating hitbox. Combine that with his roll attack that can be activated by instantly pressing down and you're practically invincible.
I have no idea where this "Sonic is too fast/hard" meme started. Especially considering the fact that for years, the joke was that they were considered kids games that could be beaten by doing nothing but holding right.

>> No.6161510

>>6161428
>Quickly
>When the stages are constantly throwing shit at you to slow you down and throw you backwards

>> No.6161519

>>6161510
obviously when Sega marketed the game as fast they meant it only would be for speedrunners that wouldn't exist for another 20 years

>> No.6161520

>>6161519
I'm talking about Sonic CD only. None of the Genesis games are nearly as bad with aimless stage design as CD is.

>> No.6162048

>>6161464
No, they shouldn't have.

>> No.6162067

>>6161510
Yeah, but that's moreso a problem, again, if you're going for the robot generators and whatnot. And you have to realize that if you want to unlock stuff like the D.A. Garden or the Special Stage Time Attack
Even Wacky Workbench goes by quickly when you're careful with the platforms and not getting launched to the top every 3 seconds.

>> No.6162074

>>6150971
I bet they just saw, that people were finishing the game way too fast, sooo they tried to lure new people in with the first level and when they got them on the hook, they try to keep them playing with all others.

>> No.6162453

>>6153153
>make a classicfag sonic fangame
>it's open-zone boostshit
I don't get it

>> No.6162454

>>6153317
Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Riders will always btfo this nonsense

>> No.6162474

>>6153345
based
>>6153828
that's because in an era where multiplayer games are the dominate norm, it goes without saying they'll be replayed multiple times, so the question becomes redundant when assessing its quality as a whole suffices

>> No.6162484

>>6153725
Only Sonic 1 and Sonic CD were designed to be difficult.

>> No.6162491

>>6159105
>But I'd definitely put 1 and CD a tier below 2 and 3&K
this is the casual opinion

>> No.6162501

>>6162453
>boostshit
>open-zone
Pick one, also there's no boost button present in this game. Maybe you should try harder with your bait next time

>> No.6162514

>>6162501
you sound like an offended dev
you also didn't understand me correctly

>> No.6162529

>>6162514
>you sound like an offended dev
I'm no shill, but if I was, this shithole would be the last place I'd market, especially on this board
>you also didn't understand me correctly
What did I miss? Boostshit usually revolves around tight hallways with springs flinging you onto the next hallway, with the boost button removing any point of building up momentum. There isn't a single thing about it that's "open-zone", let alone comparable to utopia

>> No.6162585
File: 1.68 MB, 1632x3264, IMG_20200127_201905773.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6162585

>> No.6162609

>>6151124
I’ve had that thought before. It’s weird to think that there’s only really two buttons right (sometimes left) and Jump