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/vr/ - Retro Games

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5812290 No.5812290 [Reply] [Original]

Have I been playing this wrong? The game keeps chiding me for killing the terrorists, but they shoot first and the non-lethal weapons aren't all that enjoyable or useful.

>> No.5812294

>>5812290
The game just makes you think outside the box. They're upset you didn't attempt to do so because it wasn't as fun.
>Evil is people too

>> No.5812295

Play it exactly how you want to play it. You can shoot the people giving you shit, if you want.

>> No.5812296

sometimes they tell you to better arrest than kill. but you can play it how you want. doesnt realy make a difference

>> No.5812301

>>5812290
>Have I been playing this wrong?
Like Thief or Dishonored, long as you're having fun, you're playing correctly. There's only a few ways to play "wrong", and the game will immediately hit you with a game over screen if you do so.

>> No.5812434

>>5812290
Only Paul does because they're his guys

>> No.5812440

>>5812434
Carter was also giving you grief over it. He refuses to give you ammo before one of your missions. I thought there might be greater consequences for killing.

>> No.5812483

Are NSF anti augment?

>> No.5812513

>>5812483
No?
The augment controversy stuff is all prequel nonsense.

>> No.5812535

>>5812513
Why is it nonsense?

>> No.5812537

>>5812290

The context is that every fps up until then had been games like Doom and Unreal, and Quake. You got a gun and ran around shooting things. The idea that you could avoid shooting, was such a game changer, that they game had to remind you endlessly about it.

>> No.5812554
File: 147 KB, 1440x900, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5812554

>>5812513
at least some of them are opposed to them. Factions opposed to augmentation were a major thing in Invisible War as well. Deus Ex just reached a point where the kind of mods in HR/MD have become cheap and obsolete

>> No.5812558

>>5812537
I get that. It just feels weird that they would give you so many cool toys to play with and then they jump up your ass about killing. I love the variety of approaches you can take in the game, and I might try a non lethal approach in another playthrough. I just keep worrying that they'll screw me over for my chosen approach. I just escaped from the MJ12 base. That was a fun area. Kinda mad they railroaded me into betraying UNATCO, but you gotta do right by your brother and the plot probably wouldn't be conducive to letting you stay loyal to the Coalition

>> No.5812570

>>5812558
The prequels were worse since the new guns are so fun with all these cool upgrades, but the game pretty much coerces you and gives you better xp for playing non lethal or ghosting through everything.

>> No.5812578

>>5812554
The prequels feel more like a retread of Invisible War with the Illuminati playing both sides. I don't remember if the NSF were even infiltrated by MJ12 or anything. DX story was a little more straightforward with the conspiracy, they just control UMADBRO, megacorps and banks.

>> No.5812735 [DELETED] 

>>5812290
The soldiers generally support you when you kill NSF

>> No.5812740

>>5812290
>>5812558
The soldiers generally support you when you kill NSF. E.g., you should be hearing "Good work Denton, heard it was a bloodbath out there", but if you play pacifist they'll be annoyed and say something snide like "Heard you spared a lot of terrorists, wish they played by the same rules"

>> No.5813285

>>5812570
You get most experience from exploring regardless of your playstyle. Even playing guns blazing, you're not exactly running short on XP.

>> No.5813527

I think DX contains excruciating amounts of fluff bullshit the only purpose of which is to hide the real primary source of inspiration behind DX neither Warren Spector nor Harvey Smith ever seem to mention.

I think that actual DX' essence - masked by a motherload of utterly unrelated horseshit gameplay-wise is an action/treasurehunting game, that is, FPS/dungeoncrawler hybrid - and I think that essence is ultimately derived NOT from System Shock 1 both Spector and Smith worked on (Smith as QA only), but from D.W.Bradley's (of Wizardry 5-7 fame) Cybermage (Warren worked as a producer on it, Smith as a designer, but both confirm Bradley basically regarded it his le auteur game).

By the way, that circlejerking interview Warren conducted with Harvey (see youtube) is so funny in that regard. As soon as the topic shifts upon Cybermage both are like "Yeeeeeeah" - "Yeeeeeeeeah" - "No comment?" - "No comment" - Well, I mean, maybe it wasn't all that good a game?" - "Yeeeeah" - "But, I mean, absolutely no comment" - "But man that were like insane 10 months" - "Such a difficult person, imagine trying to essentially singlehandedly make a game in 1995"- "Yeah, I mean it's not 1985 duuuuuh" - "No comment" - "Could we please skip to the next one please please please?". Obviously, grossly exaggerated for comedic effect.

Also, Cybermage is a better shooter than Deus Ex and INCOMPARABLY better shooter than System Shock's monkey-coded abomination called "combat system" - and has better level layouting than both combined (despite both not being pushovers in the slightest. It is also the, and by FAR, the most polished, best put together, genuinely accessible game Bradley ever did, apparently sporting its own engine custom made for it. Bradley also was a lead level-designer on this game, which, by the way, has campaign at least comparable, at best, exceeding System Shock in length AND, and by a wide margin too, gameplay variety. 10 months, you say? Pretty fucking impressive, I'd say.

>> No.5813545

>>5813527
P.S. I just got an impression bot Warren and Harvey got epically shittalked during those 10 months, and for genuinely good reasons too. It appears, "be nice, spout convenient bullshit and stroke along the fur to be stroked back" didn't really fly just this once, oh so completely baffling an occurrence. It appears someone had the nerve not to buy Le Game-Designere Le Extraordinere fleur everything else bought on essentially nothing other than a say-so.

Both looked somewhat hurt. If they wrre hurt for no reason, I guess, they'd just readily spill the beans, ethics or no ethics. They did not, maintaining bitchy passive agressive tone. Therefore they knew they got more or less what they deserved.

>> No.5813553

>>5812558
IIRC they originally intended you to be able to stay with UNATCO but had to cut it due to time/budget

>> No.5813575

>>5813545
I think that's pretty much one of the best ways to describe Cybermage too: "Oh Just Fuck Right Off With Your System Shock Already".

>> No.5813590

>>5813527
is that the Wizardry 6 and 7 guy? What ever happened to him?

>> No.5813638

>>5813590
First made Wizards&Warriors, managed to release it a year prior to its main competitor, Wizardry8. This time around "self-made engine" trick didn't work nearly as well. Dungeons were quite interesting though, way better than Wizardry8's, but not as tight and intricate as Cybermage's levels were.

Then he made infamous Dungeon Lords. See, the most baffling thing about this game, is. It masks for something that later could be called Souls-like. That is, third'person dungeoncrawling aRPG. What it actually is, is a coop game. When you play solo, essentially it's like soloing Wizardry7, 8 or Wizards&Warrior. Those games have you typically play a blob of 6 party members, right? Well, in Dungeon Lords you are playing one such party member.
What I mean to say, is that when you play single, the balance is MONSTROUSLY fucked (gazillions of monsters, bosses you have to scratch for minutes), AND you lose like 2/3 of side quests since they are tied to acquisition of special professions (which a single character only can have five, non-respeccable). Moreover, near the end of the game, beholders start to appear, and tgey have continuous beam attack, which just cancels any attacks of your, however quick you are, unless you have either of two VERY SPECIFIC highest-level professions (one of which wasn't even in the base game and was added specifically for Collector's Edition as a bonus). Meanimg, someone has to tank a beholder while someone else damages it. I had a pretty good build, dual-wielding magical weapons with highest possible speed, thus sporting quadruple damage, was a pretty goid decision on my part, and took quite a bit of planning. But if my fufth profession wasn't that bonus profession which I took just in case and which allowed my character to become a ghost (ignoring magic attacks such as those beams completely) for like 30 seconds once in like 10 minutes, the last location un the game would've been a solid concrete wall.(cont)

>> No.5813670

>>5813590
Anyway, like in 2012 (don't remember the year exactly) Nordic made him rerelease the gam. So he apparently rebalanced it to play out more like WoW. Dunno, haven't played it, apparently it was further patched when released on steam. What I know, is that some people liked Collector's edition (which is the one I played) better, thought it was more original, that sort of thing.

What I didn't like about Dungeon Lords though is that, well, dungeons were still the centerpieces, and they WERE enjoyable, but they were very obviously mainstream-ised, they were somewhat too simplistic in a completely unwarranted manner - which, by the way, went completely cross with the murderous fucked difficulty of the solo play. Also, again, self-made engine. Results? More or less comparable with W&W considering the year of release. W&W engine was C to C- for 2000, DL engine was solid C- for 2005.

Whatever he did after Steam release if the remade version of Dungeon Lords, and whatever he did between Collector's Edition of DL and Steam version, I have no idea. There was a blog post somewhere on the web that said Bradley was making facebook games now, but I didn't see much prooflink-wise, not that I was even looking with all that much of attention.

Frankly, Bradley's games were always more or less clusterfucks. That's actually part of their appeal. Point is, Cybermage is the only game of his I've seen, that's INTENTIONAL clusterfuck (meaning completely unpredictable off-the-wall, in an entertaining and challenging way) CONTENT-ONLY, without much extending to the means said game is meant to play through (meaning absense of any major uncircumventable jank).

>> No.5813881

>>5812570
Some mods for DX1 also do that, but thankfully it’s not on the vanilla game. If the game doesn’t want the player to go guns blazing, just make that inviable. If player freedom is emphasized, then he shouldn’t be punished for choosing a playstyle.

>> No.5813887

>>5813881
but I mean they made the lethal stuff in HR and MD super duper fun. How do you make something awesome in a game and punish players for using it?

>> No.5815605

>>5813887
You aren't punished at all. You get slightly less XP for kills than for lethal takedowns, but killing is way easier. I don't understand this criticism at all, both ways of playing are completely valid, enjoyable and rewarding.

>> No.5816416

>>5815605
Anon is right, you're absolutely punished for going lethal. You don't know what you're talking about, and this is coming from someone who did Legend+Pacifist+Foxiest of the Hounds in a single run.
>I don't understand this criticism at all
Because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

>> No.5816428

>>5812290
No, you're not doing it 'wrong'.

Certain NPC's will praise you for killing everything, others will praise you for avoiding lethal methods.

Play the game however you see fit.

>> No.5816439

>>5816416
>You don't know what you're talking about, you don't know what you're talking about.
Okay, care to explain? I just played through the series myself and didn't have any issues with it, and I played both lethal and non-lethal.

>> No.5816443

>>5816439
Very simple. Not having any issues with getting fucked in the ass does not mean you're not being fucked in the ass. Lethal vs Non-Lethal carries an enormous experience penalty. Whether or not you personally "had any issues with it" is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

>> No.5816458

>>5815605
>>5816439
You can play lethally in HR and MD just fine, but it's absolutely clear that the game hates you for doing it. Which is fucking weird, because Jensen killing people is obviously canon if you look at things like the HR recap video in MD. But in the actual games, I don't think there are ANY important NPCs that are okay with you killing people, plus you get far less XP, money, and items by going the lethal route.

>You get slightly less XP for kills than for lethal takedowns, but killing is way easier.
I'm going to assume you meant NONlethal takedowns here, but killing is actually NOT any easier than nonlethal takedowns. There are two buttons: lethal takedown and nonlethal takedown. They can both be used in the same situations, the only difference is choosing which button to press, but for some fucking reason lethal takedowns are louder AND give less XP. The game is literally telling you with its mechanics, "lethal takedowns are inferior to nonlethal ones in all situations."

Now in the original DX, I agree that I don't feel as punished for going lethal. There's a good balance of NPCs who scorn you for killing and NPCs that praise you for killing, and I don't remember the XP being significantly less (though it has been a while, so I might be misremembering).

>> No.5816517

>>5816458
>Now in the original DX, I agree that I don't feel as punished for going lethal
In DX you get your skill points from completing side quests, exploring, and completing primary objectives. If you want to kill everyone, no big deal. If you're doing a melee build, you do want to knock MiB unconscious instead of killing them outright, just because they instantly explode when killed and will fuck you up.

>> No.5816887

>>5812290
>the non-lethal weapons aren't all that enjoyable or useful.

have you mastered the secret art of the prod? you stick it in their butts and you one-hit KO themi'm not even kidding

>> No.5816946

>>5816887
I always found aiming for the lower back more consistent

Still, non-lethal gets a lot better once you master prod-fu

>> No.5817405

>>5812535
Because it's not the #1 world issue and used as a metaphor for every hot button issue in real life from abortion to private healthcare like it is in the prequels. Augments are kinda rare in DX1, only super rich guys or military have them. The social commentary using them kinda stops and ends with Gunther's insecurity with being made obsolete by the nano augs.

>> No.5817418

>>5812483
No. The NSF are terrorists, they want people dead-deadded-ded-ded. DEAD-lth-lth-lth.

Word.

>> No.5817462

OP here. I just beat Hong Kong. This game is a ton of fun, but I realize that I am terrible at any type of stealthy approach. This definitely seems like one of those titles that you would need to play more than once to get the most out of it. Next run, I'll probably main the prod thanks to some advice in this thread. Now that I know where some of the routes are, I might be better at the non-lethal and/or silent approach.

>> No.5817559

Killing is bad, JC.
Stick with the prod.
Prod with the prod.

>> No.5818056

>>5817462
Prod is for fags. Baton works until you get the Dragon Tooth.

>> No.5818069

What's your favorite map/area in DX?

I always enjoy the Paris portion and Vandenberg.

>> No.5818090

>>5818069
Liberty Isle and Hong Kong

>> No.5818117

>>5812290
There's no actual penalty. You can play the game however you want. NPCs treating you differently based on how you act was just supposed to be a cool extra detail.

>> No.5818125
File: 2.46 MB, 640x480, baton stun.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5818125

>> No.5818810

>>5818069
The rooftops mission, for sure.

Also, oceanbase, part 1 was pretty fucking based.

And, I guess, Hong Kong canals area takes the third place.

>> No.5818931

>>5812290
Some characters like when you kill, others do not.

>> No.5819163

>>5818069
I love pretty much the whole thing, but I guess the entire LaGuardia portion would have to be my favorite. But from Liberty Island through Paris, it's basically one giant 10/10 run. Superfreighter had a couple slightly wonky bits, as did the brief Dowd graveyard meeting which just felt incomplete and untested (like how you can hit your head on the skybox with speed aug maxed out), but overall, just excellent.

>> No.5819261

>>5812290
They want you to play it like a stealth game so that you are exploring the environment as much as you can, the game doesnt bust your balls for killing at all past like the first mission

>> No.5820743

>>5812290
No weapon is really enjoyable in DE. But you are simply too closeminded to see the perks of non-lethal. The non-lethal arsenal is more versatile than you think and you actually get more ammo for those weapons. You can pretty much fuck up all of NSF only with the prodstick, gas grenades, darts and a blunt weapon of your choice, which leave you with a ton of lethal ammo for the later levels with harder enemies.
The weapon system of the game falls apart in late game anyway and I usually spend my time launching M12 guys like rockets into each other with augmented hulk strenght.

>> No.5820958

>>5819261
>>5820743
I started a new playthrough where I go mainly non-lethal in the beginning. You guys are right in that it helps you find other solutions to problems, and that it allows you to stockpile ammo for later on in the game. I kept having issues getting the instant KO with the tranq darts. The prod is godlike though; when I need to take someone down quickly and quietly, I can rush them with the prod and bonk them over the head before they can make a peep.

>> No.5822160

>>5820743
>launching M12 guys like rockets into each other with augmented hulk strenght
>let me tell you how no weapon is enjoyable in a mod that ruins the game balance

>> No.5822219
File: 61 KB, 530x530, sage.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5822219

>>5812290
Not retro, fuck off to /v/

>> No.5823124

>>5822160
>game balance
>in desusex
lmao

>> No.5823923

swimming op

>> No.5824046
File: 142 KB, 559x1200, 1566259638900.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5824046

Why was Warren Spector flying around with Jeffery Epstein?

>> No.5824278

>>5822219
I mean, it's one year off from this board's cut-off date. If I posted this thread onto /v/, the replies would undoubtedly transform into some retarded shit-flinging.
Back on topic, Paris is an amazing segment of the game. It felt good to sneak up on the M12 troopers and take them out without so much of a peep.

>> No.5824290

>>5824278
*to sneak up on the M12 troopers in the catacombs, I should say. I kind of just flew through Paris though. Beyond helping the Silhouette guys, I went directly to each objective. Spent less time there than I did in New York or Hong Kong.

>> No.5824428

>>5824046
Maybe he's a porn producer?

>> No.5824434

>>5818056
Prod works perfectly as long as you hit the head or weak pts. Baton is shit. You might as well kill with the crowbar.

>> No.5824515

the best way to play Dude Sex is max acrobatics and weapon skills fully lethal run and gun. Sneaking sucks lol

>> No.5824519

>>5824434
>baton (7 damage) is shit
>might as well kill with crowbar (6 damage)
Oh you. Pump low tech and aim for their lower back.

>> No.5825928 [DELETED] 
File: 392 KB, 652x562, 1558059793891.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5825928

>>5812301
testing

>> No.5825964

>>5817462
Don't worry too much about it, the stealth mechanics are finnicky and it's one of those things where if you approach it using real world logic it won't work but once you have them figured out you'll be able to suceed unrealistically, they're basically a worse version of the stealth in Thief. There's an article on an old fan site suggesting you "put away your old Thief habits" and pick the GEP gun at the start, which I found to be good advice.

>> No.5826174

>>5825964
Get strength mod. Squat walk around with a giant crate for maximum stealth AND defence!

>> No.5827153

>>5824046
Apparently it's a different Warren Spector, some Bear Sterns ex-CEO. Would be crazy if somebody up high played Deus Ex, got nervous, and asked Epstein to give Spector a free ride.

>> No.5827192

I finally finished the game. Bob Page is one hell of an antagonist, and I wish that the fourth route wasn't cut. I don't agree with him, but I would love to see JC's goofy ass in charge of Europe. I ultimately went with the New Dark Age route since I agreed with it the most. The areas past Hong Kong kicked my ass, and my save count reached about 900. I was absolutely terrible and not confident in my decision making, but I managed to strong arm my way to the finish line.

>> No.5827205

Reminder to use Deus Exe and one of the updated renderers.

http://kentie.net/article/dxguide/
http://kentie.net/article/d3d10drv/
https://www.cwdohnal.com/utglr/

And it can't hurt to use the map patch either. GOG version likely has it preapplied, but it's nice to be sure.
http://www.dxm.be/navigator.php5?lang=en&content=202

You can also use New Vision on top of this. It's explicitly supported with Deus Exe and doesn't really change the aestethic.

Also you might consider one of the unofficial patches for the game. There are few, some more closer to mods than patches, so look around.