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/vr/ - Retro Games

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5757570 No.5757570 [Reply] [Original]

Not even one good fully 3D game

>> No.5757574

Define fully 3D.

>> No.5757575

Panzer Dragoon II Zwei

>> No.5757576
File: 3.37 MB, 630x385, cruise.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>Hasn't played Sega Rally

>> No.5757594


>> No.5757608

Sega Rally was Dreamcast.

>> No.5757640

No you're thinking of Sega Rally 2. But Sega Rally doesn't count anyways because it's a port.
That shitty Starfox clone takes an hour to play through. It's a rental, not a good game.

>> No.5757643
File: 378 KB, 544x361, kick.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

game doesn't need to be 3D to be good you abysmal fucking zoomer

>> No.5757667

>That shitty Starfox clone takes an hour to play through. It's a rental, not a good game.

>> No.5757678

That's not what game magazines were saying back in the mid 90s.

>> No.5757691

>Hasn't played Tomb Raider

>> No.5757695

Name one fully 3D game

>> No.5757709

I'm a huge Saturn fanboy and even I think the Tomb Raider port for Saturn isn't that great.

>> No.5757713


>> No.5757750

It's the original

>> No.5757773

nights into dreams

>> No.5757775

And you believe the shit you read in magazines??

>> No.5757790

Virtual On

>> No.5757804

Stop replying to tranny bait threads

>> No.5757842

Burning Rangers

>> No.5757846


>> No.5757858

Retard alert

>> No.5757861

Define "Fully 3D". Depending on how that's defined you could technically claim the entire PS1 library doesn't have any good fully 3D games.

>> No.5757876

Please recommend a good ss rpg. /vr/ can only seem to recommend 20 games at a time. 2D would be preferable, I've already played panzer dragoon saga.

>> No.5757880

Albert Odyssey
Dragon Force
Dragon Force II
Shining the Holy Ark
Shining Force III (Scenario 1-3)
Shining Wisdom
Dark Savior
Grandia (Translation Patch is in the works)
Linkle Liver Story (Translation Patch Available)
Lunar Silver Star Story (Translation Patch in the works)
Magical School Lunar (Translation Patch in the works)

>> No.5757882

As it should be. 3d games suck.

>> No.5757883

Assault Suit Leynos 2 is full 3d
You just happen to use one plane in in that 3d vector space

>> No.5757885

Game journos fucking up since the 90's
>3 decades believing in cum eaters

>> No.5757897

There was an entire debacle where one magazine complained that the shadows looked different in Street Fighter Alpha and said it was because the Saturn couldn't do transparencies.

In reality the reason the shadows looked different was because the Saturn was actually drawing a blue transparency over the sprites instead of just using a different palette like the Arcade and PS1.

>> No.5757927

>Grandia (Translation Patch is in the works)
Are they using the PS1 translation, or are they retranslating (butchering) it?

>> No.5757940

>I'm a huge Saturn fanboy
>thinks tomb raider is a port


>> No.5757959

>good fully 3d

>> No.5757981

Burning Rangers, Deep Fear.

>> No.5758087
File: 223 KB, 768x1157, IMG_7596.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>Panzer Dragoon Saga
>Shining Force III
>Nights into Dreams

Unironically had a better library than the dreamcast desu

>> No.5758121

It's a phenomenal game, it's slightly darker than the ps version, it's still a wonderful game on saturn

>> No.5758131

>Panzer Dragoon Saga
Skies of Arcadia is better.
>Shining Force III
Sakura Taisen 3 is better.
>Nights into Dreams
Jet Set Radio is better.

>Unironically had a better library than the dreamcast desu

>> No.5758143

They should have made it a 2D only console. Would have saved them a lot of headache, could have reduced the price for developers to develop for the console and the actual console's price itself. People say gaming was moving to 3D so that would have been a huge mistake but I think people forget that at that time Sega was one of the market leaders, in fact they were even on top going into the fifth generation. Fifth generation could have ended up being the GOAT with three completely unique options for video games for those who had the money or the parents to spoil them with games.

>> No.5758153

Releasing a 2D only console during the boom of 3D would be like releasing a console with no internet access today. Leader or not sega would be destroyed if they did that

>> No.5758179

Only because Sega spread itself thin releasing the incredibly shitty 32x when it should have never been made and also making tons of other dumb decisions. Remember that Sega released the Dreamcast in 98 in Japan. Nintendo 64 was released in 96. If 2D only Saturn would have hurt them that bad they could have always released Dreamcast worldwide in 98 anyways and if anything it would have had a lot more hype behind it being Sega's first true 3D console. Looking in hindsight releasing the Saturn as they did fucked them anyways so it only makes logical sense that they should have did plenty of things different at the very least.

>> No.5758190

Game journalism has always been terrible, now it's because they're politically charged liberal arts rejects, back then it was because they were just dumb ignorant kids as much as they were their average readers.

>> No.5758197
File: 138 KB, 899x712, jhfttr.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

virtua cop
burning rangers
Mahjong Kaigan Monogatari -Mahjong-kyou Jidai Sexy Idol-hen

just to name a few

i've already seen you expressing that stupid opinion. sega was top of the arcade market, their most successful games were daytona usa, sega rally and vf2 and these very games ended up being the most successful on saturn by a mile so you should stop now

>> No.5758198


32-BIT 3D was shit anyway. 3D didnt get good before the dreamcast.

>> No.5758234

Sega also then went on to get their shit stomped in by Sony because they were dumb so no they should have simply made another 2D console instead. 3D wasn't good prior to Dreamcast as >>5758198 put it.

>> No.5758258

N64 and PC did 3D great before the DC, though.

>> No.5758487

Croc is alright.

>> No.5758502

It's clearly you 2dbabies never played real man games like half life, quake, unreal, system shock 2, deus ex and thief.

>> No.5758530


>> No.5758556

Sonic R is unironically good.

>> No.5758917

3D ruined gaming. This cannot be disputed.

>> No.5758923

Yes it can.

>> No.5759019

>Not even one good fully 3D game

I'm guessing you didn't played EVERY single game on the system...

Go play Stellar Assault SS or Funky Boxers Plus and tell me those ain't good 3D!

>> No.5759030

>32-BIT 3D was shit anyway. 3D didnt get good before the dreamcast.

MS-DOS/Windows 95+98 PC 3D was at least pretty great tho.

>> No.5759058
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>> No.5759059

Doesn't need one fully game when the system costs now four times as it should cost

>> No.5759302

It's using the PS1 translation with some tweaks here and there where Ram and file size limits were an issue.

>> No.5759396

die hard arcade/dynamite deka is one of the greatest games ever made you gigantic fucking pleb

>> No.5759403

larper harder zoomie.

>> No.5759410

3D was shit that generation anyway. Rather have great 2D games that look good and run fast over slow and clunky 3D games running at literal 15 FPS.

>> No.5759414
File: 146 KB, 640x480, 1471529934257.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>great 3D


>> No.5759426
File: 95 KB, 800x550, waverace64.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Dont shitpost with Arino.

>> No.5759469

This. Sega should have went all in on 2d

>> No.5759532

That would have been stupid and they would have gotten their ass handed to them. Need proof? Look at the PC-FX. That went all in with powerful 2D only hardware with good hardware FMV playback. It flopped big time, worse than the 3DO, CD-i, and even the Jaguar last I checked.

The Saturn needed to be able to do 3D. And while what it had wasn't as good as the PS1, it was still capable of delivering good results in the right hands.

>> No.5759556

Virtua Fighter 2 isn't fully 3d?

>> No.5759568

virtua fighter 2 is more 2D than 3D lmao

>> No.5759575


How so? The game has a 3D Ring you fight on, 3D characters you fight with, and actually uses 3D Collision detection (Unlike say Battle Arena Toshinden which is actually using basic 2D collision detection). It also as an intricate positioning system that works in all 3 dimensions. However the positioning actually takes skill to use because it's based on what moves you use rather than a simple side step mechanic.

The only part of that game that's 2D are the backgrounds and background objects.

>> No.5759581

Well also NEC wasn't exactly the household name that Sega was back in the day. The Saturn suffered from not being worth it's price for the quality of the games released, not due to 3D or 2D or whatever. Sega's brand power would've carried the system even if it was more focused on quality 2D games rather than rushed, half ass 3D.

That and the 32X, the Saturn itself wasn't entirely responsible for its demise, Sega was competing with itself in the 5th generation, all 3 of the respectable 32X titles should've been Saturn games, and the 32X should've never happened.

>> No.5759612

NEC was a household name in Japan though. The PC-Engine was quite successful and beat out the Mega Drive. Even with that lead their system was an even bigger flop than the Saturn was for North America.

I agree with the 32X not happening though. But I think what really shot Sega in the foot was rushing the Saturn out, especially in the west. Had they just gone with the original September launch they could have launched with Virtua Fighter Remix instead of the original port with Virtua Fighter 2 right around the corner for the holidays. Daytona USA could probably have been polished a bit more and you also had Sega Rally coming out in a month or so. You would have also just had more games in general ready which would have just made the system look a lot better in most consumers eyes.

>> No.5759614

Not that VF2 isn't a good game, but the Saturn port is not.

>> No.5759623

How so? At the time it was the best port of the game available and ran at a higher frame rate and resolution than most 3D Fighters on the Saturn or PS1.

>> No.5759727

Dark Savior is dope. and way under appreciated.

>> No.5759734

I never played Skies of Arcadia, should I dive into it? What would you say the average play time is?

>> No.5760720

Go outside and ask anyone about sega and they’ll know what you’re talking about. Then ask them about nec or the pc-engine and they’ll look at you like you’re a fucking idiot. That’s the difference

>> No.5760726

To be fair the PC-FX was planned by 1993 and the hardware it used would have also appeared as arcade hardware giving it access to good arcade ports though delays after delays and then NEC jobbed really hard.

>> No.5760729

Saturn VF2 is better than arcade simply because of all the extra options it has.

>> No.5761070

Bulk Slash.

>> No.5761097
File: 73 KB, 640x400, 1509556899246.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Could Saturn have run Sonic Robo Blast 2 if it used the Slavedriver engine from Exhumed?

>> No.5761151

speaking of mech games, virtual on was a good 3D saturn game too

>> No.5761173

There were white Saturns?

>> No.5761187

Doom ran pretty well on Saturn based on our knowledge of the pre-release version. Had it not been for Carmack having a stick up his ass about the implementation, then we would likely have seen a decent doom port, and from that you could assert that yes, a decent sonic robo blast port would also be possible, as long as you could build for Saturn the version that hexen used (since IIRC they use slopes in robo blast, which was not supported until hexen).

But really, you should find the guy who is developing sonic z-treme and ask him, he is probably more well-versed and knowledgeable on saturn dev than anyone else right now.

>> No.5761192

Only in japan, they had grey saturns too.

>> No.5761212


>> No.5761390
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>> No.5761441
File: 97 KB, 343x500, bernie stolar.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

*bans your shitty jarpigs and outdated 2D garbage*
Nothin personnel, kids.

Oh, and don't forget to buy the far superior Dreamcast, because fuck the Sega Shiturn.

>> No.5761634

>Falling for the 3D meme

>> No.5761636

>not liking both 2d and 3d games

>> No.5761639
File: 124 KB, 682x960, 57393136_10216594988846045_4165209595184152576_n.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I'll play some Nights later.

>> No.5761640

Dynamite Deka

>> No.5762690 [DELETED] 

no home platform did decent 3d before the dramcast

>> No.5762692

no home console had decent 3D graphics before the DREAMCAST

>> No.5764132

>Daytona USA

>> No.5764180 [DELETED] 

It's not really 3D if you don't have the ability to control your character in a 3D space. That's a 2D game with 3D elements.
For the last time, ports don't count.
This thread has been up for a while now, and still not a single example refuting my point. I guess it's settled. Not one good 3D game.

>> No.5764192

It's not really 3D if you don't have the ability to control your character in a 3D space. That's a 2D game with 3D elements.
For the last time, ports don't count. If I wanted to play those games I would play their superior original versions.
This thread has been up for a while now, and still not a single example refuting my point. I guess it's settled. Not one good 3D game.

>> No.5764212

You're all forgetting that the Saturn was based on earlier Model 1 and Model 2 rendering pipelines which used quads instead of triangles. Sega might have been experienced with this but most of z-sorting raster based graphics hardware were triangle based. Other people/software packages were used to handle triangles. Also, having multiple processors didn't help the average game coder, really experienced in the highly serial main-loop code that was the de-facto standard. Mutex/Async code wasn't really a thing back there.

>> No.5764215

Dynamite Deka was made for the ST-V board, the exact same hardware as the Saturn. Thus the Saturn 'port' is exactly the same. You tried.

>> No.5764249

Wrong. The game came out in 1996 in arcades before being ported to the Saturn in 1997. Having similar or the same hardware doesn't mean anything. It's a port. It was ported. Good try kiddo, maybe next time.

>> No.5764251

Checkmate. And all in 32bit
When the Dreamcast was released, PC already had games with colored light sources, trilinear filtering, multipass texture blending for lightmaps.
Glide, OpenGL, D3D graphics APIs were a thing. There was a dispute between Voodoo 2, RIVA TNT and Rage 3D Pro.
Of course everything would change after the GeForce 256, with hardware TNL, rendering nvidia king of 3D.

>> No.5764352

The exact same hardware means it's the exact the same game. You tried and failed. Oh well, I guess there's always the next bait thread.

>> No.5764443

Yes, it came out in Arcades. The Arcade board it ran on was the Sega ST-V Titan. That board is essentially a Sega Saturn in an Arcade cabinet.

You gain nothing by playing the ST-V Titan version over the Saturn version. They are identical.

>> No.5764484

Oof, big fail. It's not the exact same game. Do you want to admit it's not "the exact same" or are you going to stand by your retarded statement and get BTFO?

>> No.5764489


>> No.5764661

I always forget the Saturn existed.

>> No.5764672

Because the Saturn literally is an ethereal, supernatural console that manifested itself in reality through the power of dreams.
Also fuck Bernie Stolar and the bernieposter.

>> No.5764674

I've never seen one in my entire life so maybe you are right.

>> No.5764678


>> No.5764697

>muh murikancentric perspective
>while talking about japanese videogames from the nineties

okay then, tell uncle sam I said hi

>> No.5764702

Not even the right system.

>> No.5764715


>> No.5764716
File: 93 KB, 1200x800, n64.0.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

not even one good game, period.

>> No.5764725

>doesn't like racing games or wrestling games
you need testosterone, boi.

>> No.5764729

the kinostation and the chadcast had both of those genres and more.

>> No.5764732

>Checkmate. And all in 32bit
>When the Dreamcast was released, PC already had games with colored light sources, trilinear filtering, multipass texture blending for lightmaps.
>Glide, OpenGL, D3D graphics APIs were a thing. There was a dispute between Voodoo 2, RIVA TNT and Rage 3D Pro.
>Of course everything would change after the GeForce 256, with hardware TNL, rendering nvidia king of 3D.


>> No.5764738

I'd argue N64 has better racing games than PS. Definitely has better wrestling games than PS.
Dreamcast came out in 1998 (1999 outside Japan) at the end of 5th gen consoles lifespan. Doesn't have wrestling games as good as the ones on N64 either.

>> No.5764742

>not even one good game, period.

Fighter's Destiny :P

>> No.5765517

shining wisdom isn't good though

>> No.5766221

Typical resetera response. Just claim youre a fan of something youre not just to sound credible.

>> No.5766839
File: 234 KB, 558x424, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

The American market is all that matters

>> No.5766863

I've never played a Saturn before but I'm interested in these games:
>Shining Force 3
>Shining the Holy Ark
>Street Fighter Alpha 3 (I've played this a million times but how is this port)
Can someone give me ratings of them please and also recommendations? I like fighting games, shmups, racing and RPGs.

>> No.5766883

>Shining the Holy Ark

Just manage to snag a copy of that, give me a couple days and I’ll get back to you with a rating.

>> No.5766892

Has at least one section you can walk over and under.

>> No.5766905

You realize with that definition that any 2D Plaformer now counts as a 3D game right?

>> No.5766940

Recommended reading: https://effectiviology.com/principle-of-charity/

>> No.5766982

Sonic R is a pretty game.
As in, it competes very favorably with 1997-era PS1 releases.
It's colorful, the framerate is largely solid, the draw distance is okayish and the fade effect is cool, environments are reasonably high poly, all the racers are fully 3D, and the not-Mode 7 thing the VDP2 can do helps with some of the draw distance issues.

it's also shit with really slippery controls and no real way to turn around quickly despite the courses being very bendy and twisty
during straight up racing, this doesn't actually matter too much and you can deal with it, but when you're getting all the emeralds and medals in weird spots, it's a bitch

and man, I'd have really taken a framerate hit over how short the draw distance is in 2 player mode, god damn

I looked through the full list of Saturn games while trying to see if there was anything I hadn't played worth burning.
There's so much absolute garbage that wasn't released over here that I can't even blame Stolar that much.
RPGs have a high cost to bring over because of translation, and everything else was fucking horse racing and mahjong and pachinko and idol gravure shit and VNs.

a few things were sports games that could have been retooled for the western market, but that'd involve effort
and there were like 30-40 arcade ports that had zero reason to not come out in the west, and many people do get on Stolar's ass for this shit
but the vast majority of the Saturn library that we didn't get is flatly just unmarketable in the west

I really enjoyed playing that growing up. It's not great, but I still think it had some decent ideas.

>> No.5767040

Even if we apply it to 3D games it's still stupidly vague nonsensical. With that logic does it mean that most 3D Fighters of the era aren't 3D because you can't "Walk over and under" something?

You can turn more easily in Sonic R if you use the L and R triggers.

>> No.5767057

*starts floating in the air with his eyes glowing red and spheres of dark energy resonating from his palms* Choose your next words carefully.

>> No.5767063

>You can turn more easily in Sonic R if you use the L and R triggers.
anyone who's played the game for any amount of time knows this
another thing for new players that many people don't get is that using forward to accelerate is worse than using the acceleration button like in a car racing game

ultimately though, the game's controls are still slippery as hell (not the worst issue if the game was primarily just a straight race -- see Sega Rally, but when you're picking up the emeralds and medals, it makes what would be a pleasant affair really annoying)
also, the best way to make a tight turn is to bounce off the wall, period -- you don't really lose any speed and you don't have to slowly change your movement vector while sliding in another direction for a bit

it's all just sloppy and shit
not sure TT at the time knew anything about tight, responsive controls, Sonic 3D Blast is also a fairly slippery game

>> No.5767073

You're right, there's not even one good fully 3D game that has been made ever

>> No.5770006

>ctrl+f Lupin
>no results
I thought /vr/ knew their Saturn better

>> No.5770012

I keep meaning to try it out, and I've never gotten around to it.

>> No.5770182

Bait but I'm still triggered

>> No.5770189

But seriously, who cares now? All 3D gaming back then was jank, and the Saturn is the pinnacle of 2D gaming. Its’ games are beautiful.

>> No.5770197

>N64 did 3D great before the DC


>> No.5772208

Saturn 3D games have a really characteristic look to them, it's something I'd have liked to see more of.

The textures have an interesting quality to them because the Saturn doesn't do UV mapping, so they're always aligned with the quad. They also don't have the middle-seam that you see on PS1 because they're not being stretched along triangles.
Some games are un-lit and full-brightness, but then there's the games that do break out the gouraud shading and you get way more dramatic shades than you'd see on the Playstation (or really, other 3D hardware in general). Panzer Dragoon 2 and Fighter's Megamix display what I'm talking about here really well.
The games don't use skyboxes to leverage VDP2 at all, so games are also overlaid over this big scrolling sky, and many games are played on a big infinite plane ground.

It all comes together for a very unique appearance and feeling.

>> No.5773090

>Never the console
>Never drew a dime
>Never had a good game outside Japan
>Tanked the buyrate of Dreamcast so hard it caused Sega to stop making consoles
>Difficult to develop or emulate due to complicated architecture and use of quads
>Only the 3rd best-selling 5th generation console worldwide
>Only the 3rd best when it comes to 3D rendering performance
>Jannetty to PlayStation even later on in Japan
>Launch Daytona USA port so badly optimized Sega Rally guys had to code a better port
>Sonic game development shafted so badly that FIVE Genesis Sonic games have to be ported
>High reliance on arcade ports
>Every decent first-party Saturn game with international release had a PC port, further questioning relevance of Saturn
>Online services used by nobody
>Porn games literally allowed in Japan in pitiful attempt to get salarymen dimes, causing a ROM site to list a stripping game the most downloaded Saturn game at one point
>Existence pretty much erased from Sega's official history books outside Japan as a result of tanking Sega's console chances

>> No.5773096
File: 2.66 MB, 640x360, wdc3_n64.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]


>> No.5773116

Saturn and Dreamcast were a work bro.

>> No.5774146

What's impressive about this?

>> No.5774190

The children had full 3d movement

>> No.5774893

Extremely high poly for a 5th gen game.

>> No.5775015

Fuck you I am happy with coping

>> No.5775086

>Ports don't count
The entire point of a SEGA console was to bring arcade games to home consoles. If ports of SEGA arcade games don't count, nothing does.

>> No.5775092

the other day i read in a magazine that it's an absolute turd but hey, every turd is an hidden gem nowadays

>> No.5775096

tomb raider is originally a saturn game, now what faggot.

>> No.5775101

At the cost of frame rate. On Real Hardware the game chugs quite a bit, especially if you try out some of the other resolution options.

>> No.5775116

>On Real Hardware the game chugs quite a bit, especially if you try out some of the other resolution options.
No it doesn’t. It is an almost rock solid 30 FPS (though does weirdly stutter on collisions supposedly due to a car physics bug). There is only one other resolution and if you use an emulator it doesn’t actually change the displayed resolution, just concentrates the pixels into a letterboxed screen area.

>> No.5775118

That is to say, a pixel perfect emulator like Angrylion. I’m reporting my experience based on real hardware.

>> No.5775141

Watch the footage of it here:

That's real hardware capture in both normal res and high res modes. Notice how choppy it gets on some of the more complex areas of the tracks. The footage at 5:55ish is probably the worst in terms of choppiness.

>> No.5775162

There’s a little bit of choppyness in that one part on the Vegas strip which draws absolutely crazy amounts of trackside scenery, and a bit where you collide with another car (mentioned that one already) but the game is otherwise rock solid 30 FPS and the video even shows that.

>> No.5775171
File: 2.63 MB, 640x360, wdc.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Alright so it turns out that little bit of choppyness on the Vegas strip only seems to happen in widescreen letterbox mode. Putting the game into this mode does actually *slightly* increase the resolution.

Here's widescreen mode.

>> No.5775175
File: 2.46 MB, 640x360, wdc2.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

And here's normal mode.