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/vr/ - Retro Games


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5730354 No.5730354 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]

How has there not been a game with melee combat as good as Severance since its release?

>> No.5730365

Theres been hundreds. Severence combat is a huge meme, in the early game it's simply a matter of doing a few dodges and spamming combos with no rhyme or reason, then once you get decent special attacks you can spam those until the credits roll np. It demands no real tactics or any kind of varied approach, and the attack animations lack impact in classic western game fashion.

>> No.5731549

That shit was awkward as fuck for me and I had trouble controlling it despite being used to old-ass games. The dismemberment system was awesome though.

>> No.5731563

>somewhat obscure game is amazing guys
there's some video on youtube by some pseudo-connoisseur hipster who titled it "the dark souls that's actually good". all of his points are about as stupid as you'd expect.

if you critiqued severance with the same fine toothed comb as one might with popular mainstream games like dark souls you'd find 10x as many flaws.

>> No.5731574

>>5730354
This game seriously needs a source port or a remaster.

>> No.5731589

>>5730354
Enclave and Die By the Sword are better.

>> No.5731601

>>5730354
yeah it's a shame
I liked the combat in exanima although it looks like drunken fighting

>> No.5731603
File: 222 KB, 799x844, Posting_and_kniving_faggots.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
5731603

>>5730365
>Claim something
>Doesnt even list anything
How does it feel to be a true turbofaggot in 2019?
Is it really worth being braindead, numb and dumb?

>> No.5731606

I don't think SBoD had a nice melee combat system. Great active light/shadows? Sure. Great physics overall? Agree. Great dismemberment and stuff? Absolutely. Besides those things, the game was meh (i.e. its level design and combat system).

>> No.5731609

>>5731603
The games that are better are not retro and this is a retro board. Fag.

>> No.5731619

>>5731603
Do you really need a list for that? It's pretty obvious even just looking at games in a similar vein Souls, Monster Hunter, Dragon's Dogma, For Honor and Mordhau if mp counts. Hell, I'd rather pick Legend of Grimrock than Severance because at least there spacing is key and fights have some tactics to them.

>> No.5731647
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5731647

>>5731619
Because if you get people to list games, you get to see if they missed the point.
I.e what you think based on your list is "A melee system". Not "a melee system with complex melee" or "a melee system with high control".
Which alone disqualifies it, because its the reason why the question IS even asked. Sure, there is always the 2 jedi knight games(movement controls saber interaction/pattern)

But there isn't a lot of melee games with fine control granularity, a working offense/defense. Sure this doesn't have the system variety of Dark Souls or even anything resembing the quality of the systems.
But its still very high granularity, while also being high gameplay. On top of being a great singleplayer campaign, even if most of the platforming is under performing.

>> No.5731651

>>5731619
>I'd rather pick Legend of Grimrock than Severance because at least there spacing is key and fights have some tactics to them.
Nerd, please. I love Grimrock but the combat is all kiting and sidestepping you can do on autopilot.

>> No.5731652

>>5731647
What granularity? The game has discrete attacks and most of the actual moves are interchangeable and don't have unique utility, they're just very slight variations on the same thing which is why you can just mash out a combo string after your dodge without any thinking and do perfectly fine as long as you don't empty your stamina too much. Not to mention as I stated before, once you get your hands on weapons with decent special attacks all that goes out the window in favor of getting a bit of distance and attacking. If you want control you play Mount & Blade or Mordhau, they have far more control AND gameplay where that control matters.

>> No.5731658

>>5731619
>in a similar vein Souls
bitch please, at least Severance doesn't need invincibility frames to make it playable

>> No.5731660

>>5731658
It has iframes on the side dodge, getting into the enemy's face, timing your sidesteps to dodge their attacks and then almost emptying your stamina doing a random combo is basically how you play it until you get decent attacks.

>> No.5731676

>>5731652
The moment you don't want to attribute granularity to it, is also the moment where you forfeit the argument.

>>5731660
Or you could just use positioning and block. I.e taking advantage of the combat granularity.

>> No.5731684

>>5731676
What's your definition of granularity? For me it's essentially game depth, where each action either has a large variety of possible states rather than a limited amount of discrete ones (such as dragging in Mordhau which modulates standard attacks based on your mouse input vs Severance's attacking/not attacking), except without the states being relevant to the gameplay itself. If your definition is simply that you have combat options, no matter how unoptimal they are, then this game has absolutely nothing on any proper ARPG with builds & stats.

>> No.5731694

>>5731684
Depth doesn't imply control. 90% of the granularity in Severances comes from the fact you can't do running attacks that keep you running, you need to commit to each move.
And unlike similar games, there is a LARGE empathize on actually controlling space and angle to get somewhere.

Multiplayer FPS melee drag games are a bad example, because you get no granularity on the footwork. You have depth over the attack, but not the means to attack. If you control over block, but not the commitment.
As amazing as MP Melee Drag is, I would argue its still worse than Jedi Knight: Outcast/Academy. Because you the forced commitment again forces skill, which again enforces granularity. I also really enjoy Mount & Blade, but M&B also has a lot of other mechanics and spectacle few games are daring enough to match.

I would also like to mention Dark Souls.
Essentially there is a lot of potential in Dark Souls to have some form of granularity as the main control element. And its indeed that in a lot of PVP.
But for PVE the depth overshadows and removes the granularity. The combination of polished mechanics overshadow what you can do merely by spacing and controlling when to attack.

>> No.5731717

>>5731694
You are using definitions in a very unclear messy way. Depth means amount of RELEVANT game states, not the total amount of interlinked (or separate) game mechanics which would be complexity or breadth. Because games have near infinite possible states we must narrow it down to states relevant to the player and the goals laid out by a game. Complexity can undermine depth (a game might be too complex and full of exploits to be balanced properly, leading to some tactics overpowering others like BoD's special attacks), but depth can never undermine granularity since granularity is a component of depth.

Mordhau and M&B have more involved spacing than BoD, you have proper footsies where both players try to get within range for pokes while being far enough to get out when the opponent attacks. BoD has no such thing, it locks you and enemies into states when attacking so for example if you want to rely on spacing it's best to simply bait an enemy into whiffing and then punish. This is why special attacks are so powerful, they either one shot/stagger enemies letting you wait for them to run up, or they can be used to whiff punish for massive damage and effects like health drain with very little risk involved.

>> No.5731718
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5731718

>>5731589

>> No.5731723

>>5731684
>>5731694
>>5731717
Y'all niggas need to take a break and play some kirby or somethin. It's fuckin retro games, not a fuckin letter to congress.

>> No.5731727

>>5731723
Calmer than you are Dude

>> No.5731802

>>5731717
>Mordhau and M&B have more involved spacing than BoD
?
In Melee drag games you have to commit to attack, but not to move. This removes granularity, especially for PVE.


One of the games I have enjoyed with the lowest granularity is Gothic, where the lack of fine control of space and movement results in any larger scales of combat like 1v3 being painful if you are not a tier higher than your enemies. And a huge portion of it comes down to that combat is really floaty, but nothing moves alongside good hitboxes, where random things can happen if you attack and move at the same time.

>> No.5731879

>>5731802
Again define your terms because this doesn't make any sense with any common definitions of granularity. It's not synonymous with spacing. The granularity is kept at the same levels, controls without commitment simply let you fully use the mechanic at all times. Whether or not this has a negative or positive impact on the spacing elements depends entirely on the overall design of the game, how the enemy AI works, how the attacks work, and so on. Obviously I'm talking about the multiplayer, AI in these kinds of games can't really handle players that move well. For that you'd need to turn to games built around spacing like Monster Hunter or 2D fighting games. Or even group combat focused games like beat 'em ups.

>> No.5731910
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5731910

>>5731879
Granular: To have fine control, to be able to count single grains
Its not about spacing. Its about the fact attacking/defending in most games are binary actions, which is part of the reason why feints and punishment even work. Which quickly means only movement is granular, because its the only thing you got fine tuned control over.
Meanwhile if you had operated excavators in RL you would know that such a thing doesn't really apply to RL. Its possible to granularly control and use every single tool so long the input system do not deny you fine control.

With that out of the way, you are not that far off the truth with your axiom. But you don't use that axiom to make meaningful statements about why attack commitment vs animation canceling vs no forced legwork make any impact on how granular a game is.

>> No.5731923

>>5730354
because it's not retro

>> No.5731937

>>5730354
There have been tons that have matched if not bettered it. People only hype that game up because it's old and still somewhat obscure. It's prime youtube clickbait and I can tell you barely played it if you're genuinely posting such tripe. Go play Mountain Blade you fucking faggot also both my game and that turd you posted ARE NOT RETRO.

>> No.5732385

>pc
It's shit

>> No.5732557

>>5731937
how is Severence not retro exactly? It runs on a goddamn VooDoo. guess Diablo 2 isn't retro either then. better start reporting its threads.

>> No.5732564

>>5731937
>There have been tons that have matched if not bettered it
like every retro game. point is it was the fucking foundation all those later games copied and built on

>> No.5733215

>>5731910
Right, I know what you mean by granular now but it's a very strange way to describe games that require precise spacing. Something like microspacing based would be more apt, since granularity by itself doesn't really say much about the required precision, that's up to the game's challenges to decide.

Anyway I don't think this applies to BoD any more than it does to Souls and certainly not Monster Hunter because you do have iframes, you do have combos and they are very effective, while playing defensively is relatively unsafe until you get good special attacks. A passive sword and board playstyle is almost like a self imposed challenge and the game seems to know this which is why the first boss type knight starts off by shooting projectiles that will most likely destroy your shield. Once you get special attacks spacing starts playing a larger role but the playstyle is too repetitive and degenerate.

>> No.5734052
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5734052

>>5731658
>doesn't need invincibility frames
Use of iframes is part of what makes DkS an actual fucking game and not yet another walking simulator with not-realistic-enough combat. Also use of iframes has precedent in games that are actually good.

>> No.5734067

>>5732385
How console fags still exist is beyond me
God you're so fucking retarded

>> No.5734086

>>5734052
Iframes is generally a crutch because its hard to get a proper mechanic that involves movement and leaning.
Dark Souls go off the far end of that argument, where its acceptable to just roll trough everything. While other games play pretend a lot more, and make it seem like you are actually dodging in some form.
And there is always games like Hyper Light Drifter where you can zip around with dashes, but you can't iframe dodge.

>>5731658
Thats the magic of Severance:
The dodges looks natural in most cases, like you actually sidestepped a attack. But its iframes.

>> No.5734113

>>5734086
It's not just hard it's near impossible in a 3D space with intricate hitboxes (especially if they are mesh based) and animations. Iframes keep it clean and consistent which is why they are used in practically all good action games. The problem with iframes is when they homogenize dodging into simply a timing test removing the element of timing altogether, which is a problem in Souls 1 on 1 encounters but gets mostly fixed in group fights.

>> No.5734129

>>5734113
>It's not just hard it's near impossible in a 3D space
?
Why do people keep saying that? Its all just a matter of simplifying down the hitboxes into basic shapes, so you can calculate them.
You can even do angles and have physics calculate deflection and bite.

The problems only arrive once you have games where your hitboxes reaches a few thousand polygons, since you do calculations for each polygon and surface.

>> No.5734145

>>5734129
It's not that, it's a problem of game design. Moving intricate hitboxes are too unpredictable and lead to constant jank and unfair moments where you will get gently brushed by the edges of a hitbox but the hit will register, and simplifying them into cylinders creates additional problems because they will not be perfectly accurate. On top of that, even perfect hitboxes generally feel unfair because players rely on rough approximations when dodging, and don't have perfect awareness of their character's hitboxes. Even light iframes like in BoD lead to a lot of ambiguity when dodging, since you won't know when the ducking has iframes and where an attack's active hitbox begins and ends leading to inconsistent dodging and trial and error. Even very games with simplified 3D movement and extremely polished game mechanics/hitboxes like Tekken tend to suffer from weird issues, even at tournament level.

>> No.5734239

>>5734145
Anon, thats just intellectual dishonesty your are presenting.
As you talk, you talk about how "the edges brush, and thats a full hit, and it results in a lot of jank"
Which means you are not honest enough to use words for it, instead you have a post about hitbox accuracy, and then have a entire box where you fail to use words such as "penetrate" or 'bite'.

And to go further than that you need to start addressing the issue:
Currently hitboxes are setup so it can't differentiate between "brushing, scraping" or other such adjectives for the interaction, and the other kinds of actions like full on hardcore penetration.

>> No.5734875

>>5734239
The problem is too much complexity that makes everything inconsistent and unclear, and your solution would be what, even MORE complexity? The problem with these kinds of mechanics and systems is that they are ideas guy tier, that is they sound good on paper but cannot be implemented well because of the countless variables involved during actual gameplay. And nothing beats the clarity of feedback that comes from the standard binary hit vs miss.

>> No.5734919

>>5734875
>even MORE complexity?
No it would just turn into a game of who can impale/chop it other the more.
Essentially there is no solution, because there is always a optimum.
I.e using mouse movement to completely ignore how swing animation/mechanics works as seen in several games like M&B and Chivalry.

>> No.5734987

>>5734129
>The problems only arrive once you have games where your hitboxes reaches a few thousand polygons, since you do calculations for each polygon and surface.
You are supposed to be designing a game, not a simulation.

Maybe someday there will be a game that has both fully realistic melee combat and is also fun to play. Until then, game mechanics are still abstractions and games built around optimizing on those abstractions wind up being better games. Especially since getting the hitboxes accurate is still far away from having a truly realistic simulation anyway.

>> No.5735057

>>5730354
Meme trash game, like thief. Fuck off.

>> No.5735062

>>5730354
Can I buy this at Hot Topic haha

>> No.5735064

>>5731658
Yikes
Severance is a slow, unplayable, ugly mess. Sleep tight dead franchise.

>> No.5735865

>>5734113
>It's not just hard it's near impossible in a 3D space
Monster Hunter provides you with iframes but also enables you to pre-emptively dodge stuff. If you see a monster starting an attack you can just move out of the way instead of iframing the attack. Now it has its own issues with some bad/unfair hitboxes but in general they've been getting better with each new game.
The problem with souls is that enemies track you mid animation so the only options you have are block and iframes. It makes the game feel extremely bad to play in my opinion. If an enemy starts an attack they should have to carry the momentum of that attack through instead of magically turning to track you as they do it. Doing it properly removes a lot of the jank and guessing in 3d hitboxes.

>> No.5735876

so many butthurt fromdrones in this thread upset their nip games aren't as original as they thought
the king's field games are consolized garbage versions of ultima underworld btw

>> No.5736324

The birds of leaving call to us yet here we stand endowed with the fear of flight.

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