/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.5693167]

How are SNES graphics so esthetic and comfy and why was this never achived again by anyone?

[Anonymous No.5693168]

>>5693167
Perfect color palette and more colors available on screen at maximum potential versus every other 16 bit console

[Anonymous No.5693171]

>>5693167

Because pixel art is hard and few know how to do it well anymore.

[Anonymous No.5693213]

Demon's Crest as a very particular dark yet vibrant color palette. But many SNES games achieved similar levels of details.
Capcom themselves, with their Disney games, did some really great spritework and pixel art.

[Anonymous No.5694030]

>>5693167
If there was a 32bit console full of sprite games those would look even better. What there is on Saturn and PS1 outdoes SNES. Stop talking out your culo.

[Anonymous No.5694057]

>>5693167
Ah, the good ol' "phrase a subjective opinion as a question to instantly validate it as a fact" gambit

They do look great though; the color limitations of the SNES were just at a spot-on threshold to allow for the optimal detail in graphics at that resolution. Not everybody knew how to make the most of them though; there's tons of SNES games with tasteless excess of shading and gradients giving them that dull "shiny" look.

Anyway, it's still all a matter of opinion. The Genesis' heavier limitations brought a really interesting gritty aesthetic in the latter stages of the system's lifetime, based on heavy dithering and thoughtful palettes.

[Anonymous No.5694078]

>>5693167
Graphically-wise Game Boy Advance is literally SNES, even if it's a different kettle of fish underneath.

[Anonymous No.5694092]

>>5694078
The palettes in GBA are a mess because of the non-backlit screen overcompensation on behalf of the developers.

[Anonymous No.5694093]

>>5694078
>Graphically-wise Game Boy Advance is literally SNES,
no.

[Anonymous No.5694096]

>>5694092
Not always.
>>5694093
Yes.

[Anonymous No.5694106]

>>5694096
>Yes.
nope.

[Anonymous No.5694107]

>>5694092
>not playing on original hardware where it looks right
top pleb

[Anonymous No.5694119]

Why did Master System have such an ugly colour palette?

[Anonymous No.5694121]

>>5694119
still better than contemporaries
corporations know not to push boundaries too far too fast

[Anonymous No.5694127]

>>5694121
The NES palette had strange choices and was more limited than the Master System's, but was also much more pleasing.

[Anonymous No.5694132]

>>5694107
You mean like in an SP?

[Anonymous No.5694194]

>>5694119
why do you make dumb nonsensical retard posts?

[Anonymous No.5694198]

>>5694194
How is it nonsensical?

[Anonymous No.5694224]

>>5694198
Well, there's no such thing as a "Master System". He might be confusing it with the Sega System

[Anonymous No.5694228]

>>5694057

[Anonymous No.5694237]

>>5694057
As good as that distinctively Genesis look is, I wish we got more games like Beyond Oasis or particularly Monster World IV which focused more on clean artwork and good colour choice.

[Anonymous No.5694245]

>>5694237
Kinda looks like an nes game with lots of black spaces and negative coloring.

[Anonymous No.5694249]

>>5694121
If the logic that restrictions automatically equals better art then the PS1 wouldn't have had an immediate art leap as technical restrictions no longer limited talented artists. There would have been a similar leap upwards in the next generation if budgets and teams had continued to grow in the same fashion, and had 3D not killed 2D games on consoles for a while.

[Anonymous No.5694278]

>>5694132
This is why I use a frontlit SP, colours dont look fucked. Tho some games have patches and I know of FFTA has colour options already

[Anonymous No.5694312]

>>5694249
Just like all things in life there is a sweet sport between working with restrictions and technological advances that makes for the best visuals. It can be argued 16 bit or 32 bit era was that sweet spot.

[Anonymous No.5694318]

>>5694198
The post mentions the Master System in a thread about the SNES and 16 bit systems. It would be like posting "Why does the Atari 2600 have such bad graphics?" in a thread about the PS1 and N64. Context can make a response nonsensical. The dumb retard part comes when you consider the Master System is actually pretty much the most powerful console of its generation, and he's asking why it has a bad palette (it doesn't).

[Anonymous No.5694337]

>>5694318
Did you read the thread past the first post?
>The dumb retard part comes when you consider the Master System is actually pretty much the most powerful console of its generation
That's precisely why it's strange that it has an ugly colour palette. And I think you're confusing the number of colours with how appealing the palette is.

[Anonymous No.5694363]

>>5693167
Most 2D arcade games from the same era look and sound so much better

[Anonymous No.5694494]

>>5694337
What's ugly about it? Provide examples. All I see is an 8-bit system where games are far more vibrant than most NES games.

[Anonymous No.5694507]

>>5694494
Their colour choices for the most part just aren't very appealing

[Anonymous No.5694540]

>>5694507
The SMS palette is plenty nice. Some games have a bad habit of using the purest tones too much, but it's a reasonably well-balanced palette for bright, colorful games. It's a standard 4x4x4 RGB cube, albeit with some colors that aren't different enough from each other.

Of everything I'd complain about, the sound chip that can't really do low notes is the real issue.
It can produce bass notes if you set the noise channel to periodic mode and tie its frequency to the third channel.
This gives you a low pulse bass sound, but you can count the games that did this with your hands. It takes two channels and you can't do noise drums at the same time, and I'm not even sure if Japanese developers knew about the feature. A few Euro-developed SMS games used it.

[Anonymous No.5694550]

>>5694540
>A few Euro-developed SMS games used it.
Which ones?

[Anonymous No.5694752]

>>5694550
Daffy Duck in Hollywood is one.
James Pond is another.

too lazy to check for others

[Anonymous No.5695440]

>>5694237
> As good as that distinctively Genesis look is, I wish we got more games like Beyond Oasis or particularly Monster World IV which focused more on clean artwork and good colour choice.

You should try Pulseman and Treasure Land Adventure. Just in case you didn't already.

[Anonymous No.5695487]

>>5693167
There are saturn, ps1 and arcade 2D games that eclipse everything ever done on the SNES combined.

[Anonymous No.5695515]

>>5695487
Eh, subjective. PS in particular I find it has very few actually good looking 2D games. A lot of them look really poor, with washed out color palettes.
Not to say it wasn't capable, but devs evidently weren't too interested in crafting good 2D, bar a few exceptions.
I wouldn't say it eclipses "everything ever done on the SNES combined". If I had to choose, I'll probably choose SNES and Mega Drive for 2D games, not PlayStation.
And Saturn, even though it's a "2D beast", still doesn't really have THAT many good 2D games outside of arcade ports. 4th gen systems still reign supreme IMO.

[Anonymous No.5695871]

>>5693167
>How are SNES graphics so esthetic and comfy
large master palette, enough sub-palettes, big carts and high end pixel art

>why was this never achived again by anyone
vast majority of those aesthetic SNES games were from the 94~96 period and by '96 people only wanted 3D games, so devs changed their priorities

besides "never again" is an overstatement, top tier Neo Geo games look far better than SNES games for instance

[Anonymous No.5696116]

>>5694127
>but was also much more pleasing
not even close

[Anonymous No.5696237]

>>5696116
Exception proves the rule.

[Anonymous No.5696242]

>>5695515
I don't think I've played many Playstation original games that look better than the SNES' best. I know that in 1995-6 I wasn't interested in the Playstation at all because it had nothing that looked as good as DKC2, King of Dragons, or Yoshi's Island, which I was really into at the time.

Playstation has some arcade ports that are far above what the SNES can do, obviously.

[Anonymous No.5696247]

>>5695871
>by '96 people only wanted 3D games

I'm still not sure what alternate universe this idea is from. Literally never heard this sentiment, and everyone I knew was all over 2d games like Diablo, Starcraft, Age of Empires, and Fallout. Likewise, everyone was still up for playing SNES games when they'd hang out at my house.

[Anonymous No.5696254]

>>5696237
that's not the exception, that's the rule

NES games with more pleasing colors are the exception

[Anonymous No.5696260]

>>5696254
That is literally cherry picking the best looking game on the system.

Master System is ugly, though, yes. Garish primary colors look awful. Somehow the more primitive NES soundchip also usually manages to sound better, too, though.

[Anonymous No.5696296]

>>5693167

[Anonymous No.5696301]

>>5693167
They aren't lol
The fuck is this meme?
You could say the same about the NES's minimalist graphics or the Genesis's moody patchy graphics

[Anonymous No.5696310]

>>5696260

Not that guy - Im a nintendo boy, but I found the master system games like wonderboy and double dragon had far more pleasing colors.

[Anonymous No.5696316]

>>5693167
>How are SNES graphics so esthetic and comfy
true

>and why was this never achived again by anyone?

DOUBT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy_fPm2xLH8

[Anonymous No.5696320]

>>5696116

>comparing a 1992 game on 1987 hardware with a 1986 game on 1985 hardware

Well done. Excellent shitpost.

[Anonymous No.5696410]

some Sega System games can almost pass for early 16-bit games, Nintendo games games are easily distinguishable thanks to its muddy palette and 3-color sprites

[Anonymous No.5696421]

>>5694078
It's different. Can't put my finger on what but it is.

[Anonymous No.5696424]

>>5696421
The resolution is drastically lower and the color palettes suck.

[Anonymous No.5696427]

>>5696421
The GBA can do proper 3D. The SNES needed add-on chips with co-processors for 3D games that ran at 15fps. There's an ocean of difference between the SNES and GBA.

[Anonymous No.5696429]

>>5696427
>the SNES needed add-on chips with co-processors for 3D games.

False.

[Anonymous No.5696437]

>>5693167
16-bit best bit!

[Anonymous No.5696441]

>>5696410
Which Sega system?

[Anonymous No.5696450]

>>5696421
lower resolution and garish palettes to make up for the lack of backlit in early models, but the GBA is overall substantially more powerful

[Anonymous No.5696460]

>>5696429
>False.
True.

[Anonymous No.5696764]

>>5696260
>Somehow the more primitive NES soundchip also usually manages to sound better, too, though.
The NES sound chip isn’t actually more primitive though. Master System still uses the same sound chip as the Colecovision. Unless you get the FM module, then it’s definitely better than the NES.

[Anonymous No.5696782]

>>5694224
>"Sega System"
Do you mean the Sega Master System?

[Anonymous No.5696793]

>>5696437

Indeed.

[Anonymous No.5696961]

>>5693168
The PC Engine had literally twice as many colors onscreen, and every console released after the SNES had a bigger color palette.

[Anonymous No.5696983]

>>5693167
The virgin SNES
>piss-poor resolution
>action plagued by slow-down
>first-party games deliberately slow to avoid slow-down from crippled CPU and shitty graphics chip
>cross-platform games cropped so you can't even see who's firing at you
>mode 7 graphics haven't aged well at all, rendering mode 7 games shitty tech demos and footnotes to today's audience
>CPU so bad it requires add-on chips in the cartridge for basic shit like drawing polygons

The chad Mega Drive
>beastly 320x224 res (25% more pixels)
>CPU twice as fast for smooth action
>first-party platformers as fast as racing games
>cross-platform games in their native resolution so you can see the whole screen
>focus on gameplay rather than cheap, shitty tricks like mode 7
>can render polygons without any special chips

[Anonymous No.5696987]

>>5694078
>Graphically-wise Game Boy Advance is literally SNES
Wrong. The GBA takes the SNES' already shitty 256x224 resolution and cuts it in half!

[Anonymous No.5696990]

>>5694119
It had a far superior color palette to the NES and Commodore 64.

[Anonymous No.5696992]

>>5694127
>The NES palette had strange choices and was more limited than the Master System's, but was also much more pleasing.
Nintentards actually believe this. Sorry sweetie, the NES color palette was ABYSMAL!

[Anonymous No.5696993]

>>5696990
It also has a newer chipset than them. What's your point

[Anonymous No.5697002]

>>5694363
>Most 2D arcade games from the same era look and sound so much better
The Neo Geo is the greatest 16-bit system in terms of graphics, for that very reason.

[Anonymous No.5697006]

>>5694507
>Their colour choices for the most part just aren't very appealing
Far more appealing than any other palette of that era.

[Anonymous No.5697014]

>>5695871
>top tier Neo Geo games look far better than SNES games for instance
SNK had the greatest pixel artists of that era. Not only did the games look great in stills, but they ran smoother than any other console and the backgrounds were so lively and animated. I like Sega's use of animation in their games, but SNK took it to the next level.

[Anonymous No.5697017]

>>5696247
>I'm still not sure what alternate universe this idea is from
It's from jewish (((magazines))) like EGM who shat on the Saturn for having 2D games. They did it because they were on Sony's payroll and doing all they can to undermine the competition, and those views on 2D games were not shared by console or PC gamers. They just repeated it so much in their articles that if you're too young to remember and you just read the articles from that time, you'd think "everyone" was over 2D.

[Anonymous No.5697021]

>>5696260
>Somehow the more primitive NES soundchip
You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. The NES' soundchip is far more advanced than the shitty 8910 clone in the Master System. It has a triangle channel and a DPCM channel. The Master System can only play square waves and white noise.

[Anonymous No.5697029]

>>5696320
>comparing a 1992 game on 1987 hardware with a 1986 game on 1985 hardware
You have no fucking clue what you're talking about, either. The NES is 1983 hardware, and the Master System is 1983 hardware with a bigger color palette.

[Anonymous No.5697034]

>>5696410
>some Master System games can almost pass for early 16-bit games
That's because the Genesis' VDP is a barely upgraded version of the Master System's VDP.

[Anonymous No.5697038]

>>5696993
>It also has a newer chipset than them
Wrong. It has a newer, superior color palette.

[Anonymous No.5697260]

>>5696116
Master of Darkness looks like dogshit here. Everything is bland, brown, and unappealing when compared to Castlevania III's bold colors, use of chiarascuro, and stylized graphics.

[Anonymous No.5697386]

>>5696961
the pc-engine isn't a 16 bit console.

[Anonymous No.5697581]

>>5693167
>jpg

[Anonymous No.5698117]

>Yamamuro's current style looks like plastic because of the shading
>Shintani's style looks too much like late OG DB

when will we get an anime series with peak Toriyama aesthetics?

[Anonymous No.5698169]

>>5694237
well since the majority of the Genesis library worldwide was composed of commission games (games developed in japan for americans) and american developed titles, by people who understimated the color limitations and only choose the garish palettes imaginable, well, that's what happens.

[Anonymous No.5698173]

>>5697034
not him, but it's not just in comparison with Genesis games

[Anonymous No.5698219]

>>5697386
16-bit graphics and 16-bit generation, chump.

[Anonymous No.5698225]

>>5698173
The SNES had the same resolution as the NES and barely higher than the Master System, so if you reduced the color like that screen shot of course its games would look 8-bit.

[Anonymous No.5698640]

>>5694237
some indie pixel art styles suit the Genesis restrictions quite well

[Anonymous No.5698675]

>>5696247
I was around back then, and if you were too you're being purposely dishonest in pretending to that the idea of 3D being all the rage in mainstream gaming culture is from an "alternate universe." Maybe there were a few with very refined taste that had the foresight to appreciate good sprite work, that was the tiny minority of gamers.

Just a quick anecdote for some younger folk around here who weren't around back then related to this topic: I remember a kid came into school talking about how he just got Madden 98, and, back then usually for sports games the big question was "can you create a player / can you make trades,"(that was a big deal at the time,) but this time the first question everybody was curious to know was "is it 3D?" I remember he lied and said it was for whatever reason (probably so nobody would shit talk it.) Nobody was asking is it good or can you make a player, it was the obsession with 3D that dominated the conversation.

[Anonymous No.5698686]

>>5698675
Sorry man, I never experienced that, and I never experienced "console wars" either.

It doesn't take "refined taste" to see that sprite graphic or pre-rendered graphics look better than rendered polygons. That's obvious just from looking at them. But likewise, I never didn't want to play polygon games because they were ugly, they usually added new gameplay opportunities because of the extra dimension.

[Anonymous No.5698694]

>>5698219
8 bit processor, lad.

[Anonymous No.5698696]

>>5698694
Doesn't actually matter, since the graphics are 16-bit. And that's what everyone actually cares about. Sega plastered "16-bit Graphics" on the Sega Genesis for a reason.

[Anonymous No.5698704]

I don't play much SNES anymore. Got most of my fix in the 90s, then discovered its RPG library in the 2000s, so there's not much left for me to discover. Been playing this one lately though. Graphics are so damn nice. Playing via S-Video on a consumer CRT.

Basically the ideal 16-bit graphics, no pixelation, great color, enough detail to bring the environment to life and set a mood.

Not perfect though. No impressive parallax going on, and the animations are merely fine.

[Anonymous No.5698742]

>>5698675
That's true. I'm a 2D art lover and even then I was looking forward for the next big 3D game. I mean, watching Daytona USA in 1994 pretty much sold me the idea that 3D was the future. It was great walking into an arcade to find out the new Model 2 game by Sega (Manx TT, Seg Rally, Virtua Fighter 2, etc). And if it wasn't enough, playing Mario 64 in early 1997 just blow my mind again.

I don't remember being much interested in 2D games from middle to late 90s, and pretty much everybody around me was the same. The 2D fever came back strong in the 2000s, though.

[Anonymous No.5698754]

And there were plenty of examples in the 90s like that infamous Castlevania SOTN review where the megazine attacked the game for using 2D.

I remember an interview made to Philip Harrison in 1995 where the journalist, talking about the early lineup of games of the Playstation, asked to Phil how he could explain having a Parodius game there if that was a such a step back in graphics.
That was pretty much the mood at the time, with some exceptions.

[Anonymous No.5698876]

>>5698694

16-bit graphics, chump.

>>5698696

Exactly.

[Anonymous No.5698882]

>>5698754
>And there were plenty of examples in the 90s like that infamous Castlevania SOTN review where the megazine attacked the game for using 2D.
I remember that, and I remember the gaming rags shitting on the Saturn version of the game because it didn't have transparencies. Long story short, when Konami ported the game, they orted the engine from the PS version which used the PlayStation's 3D GPU to texture polygons from a flat perspective to simulate 2D since the PlayStation didn't have 2D hardware. Well, first of all it was in a low resolution that the Saturn was incapable of, so the textures were stretched on the Saturn and looked like shit as a result, but also the Saturn can't do transparencies in 3D in hardware and they didn't care to do it in software. Had they used the Saturn's 2D hardware, it could have done everything the PlayStation version did and then some. They still would have had to redraw every sprite to fit the Saturn's better resolution, or simply display more of the game areas onscreen, but Konami didn't care to do it.

[Anonymous No.5698931]

>>5697034
>the Genesis' VDP is a barely upgraded version of the Master System's VDP
That's a laugh.

>now supports multiple background layers
>completely new DMA system
>completely new line/column scroll system
>now supports translucency (shadow/highlight)
>huge bump up in resolution
>now supports sprite flipping
>supports high-res interlace mode
>huge bump in sprite limit
>now supports packed pixel format
>big increase in the types of supported sprites
>supports massively larger color palette with external color RAMs (arcade machine version)

[Anonymous No.5699029]

>>5693167
>why am i so retarded and why will this never be "achived" again by anyone?
Millennials were a one off speed bump in human evolution.

[Anonymous No.5699167]

>>5698173

[Anonymous No.5699176]

>>5699167
Looks like a shitty browser game.

[Anonymous No.5699231]

16 bit JRPGs have always had that "something" to me. Even in the best there's a real feeling that their reach exceeded their grasp.

[Anonymous No.5699245]

>>5698742
Different experiences. For me, the late 90s was all about Diablo, Starcraft, Fallout, Baldur's Gate. All 2d games. The 2000s was when every PC franchise started going 3d with ugly N64 tier graphics (check out Civ 4 or EU 3).

I played 3d games, of course, all the time. But they weren't new or exotic, they'd been around since I started gaming in the early 90s.

[Anonymous No.5699297]

>>5698696
>>5698876
>it doesnt matter what the specs actually are!!
wewlad.

[Anonymous No.5699426]

>>5693167
>esthetic

[Anonymous No.5699546]

>>5699245
But that's because you prefered PC games, and they didn't start to get nice 3D graphics till the very late 90s.

In consoles or arcades, that was another different world. I mean, yes, there were 3D games even in the 80s like Hard Drivin' or Winning Run, and I saw them back in the day, but watching Virtua Racing, Daytona USA or Virtua Fighter was like stepping 10 years into the future. I don't remember being conscious of prefering 2D or 3D graphics, back then. I loved 2D too, but those Sega Model 2 or 3 games were just too awesome to ignore the potential or that technology for videogames.

[Anonymous No.5699569]

>>5699546
I always thought polygon graphics were a sort of tradeoff until the PS2 era. Trading graphical quality for mechanics. Decent looks pretty ugly, but it you can move your ship in true 3d. Goldeneye badguys look ridiculous, but hits on enemies' body parts register animations based on location. Jedi Knight looked pretty ugly, but had incredible vertically designed areas that you explored in 3 dimensions. These sort of games looked ugly but offered gameplay that wasn't possible in a 2d space.

That's why I'm actually amazed when I hear that there were people who thought that 2d was a negative, not only because I literally never experienced that, but because 3d games objectively looked worse. I never thought any of the 3d games I played and enjoyed had good graphics.

[Anonymous No.5699578]

>>5699297
16-bit graphics, chump. Twice as many colors onscreen as the Stupid Nintendo, and its 65c02 ran at twice the speed of the SNES' shitty Apple III CPU.

[Anonymous No.5699583]

>>5699569
3D games of the 3DO/PS1/SAT/N64 era looked like shitty 8-bit graphics with a much higher color count. 2D games of that era and the 16-bit era were much more detailed and refined, and they look aesthetic to this day. 3D from that era hasn't aged well at all.

[Anonymous No.5699592]

>>5698931
>>now supports multiple background layers
Wow, 1 more background layer!
>>completely new DMA system
It's "new" and it's still shit.
>>completely new line/column scroll system
Nothing the Master System couldn't do in software
>>now supports translucency (shadow/highlight)
Which not a single game used
>>huge bump up in resolution
256x192 to 320x224 is hardly a "huge bump"
>>now supports sprite flipping
Wow, that saved the devs time from hitting Image > Flip horizontal in their primitive 80s version of photoshop!
>>supports high-res interlace mode
That not a single game used.
>>huge bump in sprite limit
Exact same sprite count in 256 mode, 16 more sprites in high res mode. Wow, what a "bump"! I bet your mom thinks your 1" dick is a huge bump too.
>>now supports packed pixel format
Zzz who cares
>>big increase in the types of supported sprites
WRONG
>>supports massively larger color palette with external color RAMs (arcade machine version)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You're that simp who insists the Genesis' palette can be expanded aren't you? NOT A SINGLE GAME USED IT, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXIST!

Neck yourself, faggot.

[Anonymous No.5699598]

>>5694312
I do really think it was the sweet spot of gaming as a whole.
At that point we had 2D games at their finest and 3D games still felt like games.
Not some chinematic shitshow that pretends to be games like mordern gaming.

[Anonymous No.5699837]

[Anonymous No.5699856]

[Anonymous No.5699895]

>>5699569
You need to keep in mind the distinction between beautiful and striking. Early 3D games at the time were striking to nearly anyone who saw them.

[Anonymous No.5700512]

[Anonymous No.5700612]

>>5694237
Beyond Oasis is gorgeous.

[Anonymous No.5700618]

>>5697014
Agreed
Magician Lord, Crossed Swords and Metal Slug come immediately to mind.

[Anonymous No.5700691]

>>5700618
Magician Lord looks good, but the backgrounds are nothing special, nor are the animations. I could see it running on the Mega Drive.

Metal Slug, on the other hand, is something no other 16bit console could even come close to.

[Anonymous No.5700831]

[Anonymous No.5700837]

>>5699176
Yeah, if browser games had actual detail put into them and soul.

[Anonymous No.5700840]

>>5693167
They sweat the details.

[Anonymous No.5700873]

>>5693167
You think SNES looks better than Neo-Geo?

[Anonymous No.5700879]

>>5700873
yesterday i saw this nintendrone saying N64 graphics are Dreamcast graphics with worse textures and lower framerate

OP probably believes SNES graphics are better than Neo Geo's as well

[Anonymous No.5700902]

>>5697002
Too expensive for so few games. I'm glad they emulate easily nowadays.

[Anonymous No.5701127]

>>5700873
>>5700879
Nintentards are the absolute dumbest fanboys in the industry. Their little brains have been drenched in onions sauce.

[Anonymous No.5701130]

>>5700902
It was too expensive for any amount of games.

[Anonymous No.5701163]

>>5694237
>>5700612

yeah beyond oasis might be the best looking game on the system. those ancient artists knew what the hell they were doing

https://youtu.be/IxHAj0vtLNg?t=5117

[Anonymous No.5701168]

>>5696764

in which case you might as well put the VRC7 or N163 in the ring

[Anonymous No.5701183]

>>5699592

technically you can expand the color ram. never happened, but it is a thing. sonic 2 did use the high resolution mode tho. and a decent number of games used shadow and highlights for transparent type effects.

not just 16 more sprites total, but they can be much bigger. so more than double the sprite pixels per line.

the master system can only do 16 8x wide sprites on a line, the genesis can do 20 16x16 sprites.

> >>big increase in the types of supported sprites
WRONG

he probably meant going from 2 possible sprite sizes to 24.

[Anonymous No.5701187]

>>5699592


i think you can expand the color ram, even if it never happened

sonic 2 did use the high resolution mode. and a decent number of games used shadow and highlights for transparent type effects.

and not just 16 more sprites total, but they can be much bigger, so over double the sprite pixels per line.

the master system can only do 16 8pix wide sprites on a line, the genesis can do 20 16 wide sprites.

> >>big increase in the types of supported sprites
>WRONG

he probably meant going from 2 possible sprite sizes to 24.

[Anonymous No.5701205]

>>5698882
The "3D" on the Saturn was achieved by distorting 2D sprites, that and doing sprite+sprite transparency was painfully slow. The other 2D part was a glorified mode-7 style tile-mapper that's only useful for backgrounds and was probably used for SOTN.

[Anonymous No.5701216]

>>5701205

the "3D" on playstation was achieved by distorting 2D triangles.

and VDP2 wasn't used for sotn which is partially why the game ran worse

[Anonymous No.5701217]

>>5696764
The base SMS sound chip could only do simple sqaure waves and noise. The NES sound chip at least had the benefit of changing the duty cycle of it's square waves, that and it had a triangle wave channel and a pcm channel that nobody used much b/c ROM space was at a premium.

[Anonymous No.5701303]

>>5700879
>N64 graphics are Dreamcast graphics with worse textures and lower framerate
Well he’s not wrong when it comes to some games. That’s basically Rush 2049. The Dreamcast doesn’t have a big T&L advantage over the N64 but it does have a very large fillrate advantage.

[Anonymous No.5701521]

>>5694237
Back then people were impressed with realistic looking images look you see in rambo 3

>>5693167
each console is comfy in its own way

snes - shading for colours
genesis - gritty hi rez
nes - low colour art style
sms - bright colours

even cdi, 3do, jaguar and home computers can be comfy

[Anonymous No.5701640]

>>5701163
That's not true. It is pixel art at a big resolution, but that doesn't make it look better.

[Anonymous No.5701646]

>>5701640

[Anonymous No.5701647]

>>5701646

[Anonymous No.5701662]

>>5701647

[Anonymous No.5701664]

>>5701662

[Anonymous No.5702045]

>>5701640

forgot about ristar but beyond oasis has some nice looking setpieces

also
>me: subjective opinion
>you: that's not true

can you stop with the autism

[Anonymous No.5702110]

>>5699167
>A finished not buggy translation never

[Anonymous No.5702168]

>>5701205
>The "3D" on the Saturn was achieved by distorting 2D sprites, that and doing sprite+sprite transparency was painfully slow. The other 2D part was a glorified mode-7 style tile-mapper that's only useful for backgrounds and was probably used for SOTN.

You're confusing the Sega Saturn with the Sega CD...
>>5701216
>the "3D" on playstation was achieved by distorting 2D triangles.
>and VDP2 wasn't used for sotn which is partially why the game ran worse
This is exactly what I'm saying. VDP2 is the 2D chip, the one made exactly for 2D games like SOTN but because it came out on PlayStation first, which doesn't have a 2D chip, they had to program it in such a way that a 3D chip draws it to look 2D and to port it to the Saturn the right way would have taken much, much longer than the rush job they gave it.

[Anonymous No.5702169]

>>5702168
>You're confusing the Sega Saturn with the Sega CD...
he's not

[Anonymous No.5702170]

>>5701303
>Well he’s not wrong
Yes he is.

[Anonymous No.5702179]

>>5702169
She is

[Anonymous No.5702506]

>>5701662

Nice application of the mega drive's color palette.

[Anonymous No.5702510]

>>5694119
Don't push your shit opinion as fact, it's a perfectly ordinary 4x4x4 RGB color cube.

[Anonymous No.5702516]

>>5702110
A pity specially because is the biggest jrpg on the system. It deserved a better translation.

[Anonymous No.5702545]

>>5702510
The entire upper left quadrant is all puke coloured. That doesn't leave you much to work with.

[Anonymous No.5702598]

>>5699592
>Nothing the Master System couldn't do in software

Show me a Master System game pulling off this.

[Anonymous No.5702616]

>>5698882
>>5701205
The reason SOTN looks like shit on the Saturn is BECAUSE they used the 2d hardware (the VDP2). You can't draw a transparent sprite that is both transparent over other sprites, and over the background at the same time. They have to pick between sprite to background or background to background transparency, or use meshes. You also have to pick between using gouraud shading and having background priorities (ie. drawing a sprite behind a background, and another one in front of it), and SOTN used a ton of gouraud shading effects.

The game wasn't badly coded, it was just so custom built for proper 3d hardware that the Saturn had no chance of running it, short of having every effect rewritten from scratch.

Given that, they still did great, especially with the new stages where they tried leveraging the hardware to do transparencies.

>>5701303
DC doesn't have a big fillrate advantage, it just uses smarter rendering so it can get away with very small fillrate on the GPU.

[Anonymous No.5702629]

>>5702168
>they had to program it in such a way that a 3D chip draws it to look 2D

PSX doesn't have a 3d chip, it has a 2d triangle plotter with no depth or perspective information whatsoever.

It's like the Neogeo in that regard, which had no background hardware and drew BGs using its sprite hardware. That's exactly how the PSX drew SOTN.

Because every pixel was drawn by the same GPU, they could easily do transparency in it. Saturn had two GPUs with completely fucked interaction between them. If you used the 2d hardware, then half the graphics are on the other chip, and you can't draw transparent pixels on the backgrounds if you are also drawing transparent sprites.

They would've needed to draw everything on the first GPU only, and then you could've had the game looking as good as the PSX version, only the transparencies and the shading would be additive instead of multiplicative. But they either would have ran out of memory or have the game running at 5fps (instead of the 15 it runs at).

[Anonymous No.5702672]

>>5702616
>DC doesn't have a big fillrate advantage, it just uses smarter rendering so it can get away with very small fillrate on the GPU.
It has a very big real-world fillrate advantage, let's put it that way.

[Anonymous No.5702862]

[Anonymous No.5703024]

>>5702629
the other reason transparency is broken on the saturn is because it uses forward texture mapping, where every texel from the texture (or sprite if you wanna call it that) is written to the framebuffer even if the it's distorted, so not only do you have a bunch of overdraw, any transparency that's performed will be corrupted.

best explained here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdD0GvVRSMc

[Anonymous No.5703027]

>>5702862

hyper dimension looks insanely good

[Anonymous No.5703610]

>>5699592
>now supports translucency (shadow/highlight)
>Which not a single game used
i know you're baiting, but this is a misconception, a lot of games used it for simple shadow effects (Mortal Kombat, Rambo III, Castlevania: Bloodlines, Vectorman, Garfield, etc), some tried to use it for shading alongside dithered art to lesser the color contrast (Ecco 2, The Lost World: Jurassic Park) and a few used it to give the entire background dark shades unavailable in the normal palette, like the cave from Ranger X or the first stage from Batman & Robin

highlight was seldom used but i remember some examples like the lens flare from Vectorman and the spotlight on Pinocchio

[Anonymous No.5703628]

>>5703610
Ristar first boss does shadows too

[Anonymous No.5703919]

>>5703628
indeed

Knuckles Chaotix uses the effect the same way in the character catcher machine

[Anonymous No.5705286]

>>5702862
the sky battles tho

[Anonymous No.5705514]

>>5703024
Thanks, that video was very informative! It's too bad the Saturn used quads, although I understand Sega's reasoning for it.

[Anonymous No.5706358]

[Anonymous No.5706584]

>>5694550
Everything by Matt Furniss.

>>5694237
And Ristar.

[Anonymous No.5707680]

>>5701662
>>5701664
this game also uses some zoom and sprite rotation effects

[Anonymous No.5708702]

>>5701303
>when it comes to some games
>some

some Dreamcast games are just PS1 ports with texture filtering, those games indeed look like N64 games

[Anonymous No.5708713]

>>5699578
WRONG

[Anonymous No.5710519]

>>5693167
90s 2D is the pinnacle of graphics in terms of aesthetic appeal.

[Anonymous No.5710560]

>>5696961
>The PC Engine had literally twice as many colors onscreen
You're still dealing with 9-bit RGB vs 15-bit RGB.

>>5701303
the DC has a bunch of multiplats with way shittier textures than they've got any right having on the machine

>>5701216
a lot of people like to use this to imply that the PS1 can't do "true" 3D, even though the machine has dedicated hardware for performing 3D position and lighting calculations

[Anonymous No.5710676]

[Anonymous No.5710683]

[Anonymous No.5710793]

>>5710560

I never said it doesn't do true 3D. It's just not as different from the saturn as a lot of people like to imply. They both handle real 3D perspective but texture in 2D space.

[Anonymous No.5711701]

>>5710560
>You're still dealing with 9-bit RGB vs 15-bit RGB.
this

a 150 on-screen colors SNES game will look better than a 200 colors PCE game with the same art 100% of the time