What made JRPGs "work" back then? And why are they so vehemently detested now? Did the games cease to move toward the future, or was it the audience that changed?

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Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:13:29 2013 No.565453 [Reply] [Original]

What made JRPGs "work" back then? And why are they so vehemently detested now? Did the games cease to move toward the future, or was it the audience that changed?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:14:29 2013 No.565457 File: 888 KB, 1100x1758, 1364054955301.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Audience changed JRPGs didn't get worse

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:14:29 2013 No.565459 Mostly the audience, it's all about fanservice now.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:19:58 2013 No.565491 jRPG's still work. Ni No Kuni got some pretty decent reviews and SMT games always get decent reviews.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:24:58 2013 No.565527 I think Xenoblade was in a lot of ways a good throwback to older great jrpgs like Chrono Trigger, Cross, Xenogears. Really, if you want a modern version of those games play Xenoblade.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:27:28 2013 No.565546

The Genre also evolved and diverged. There's a lot less random encounters and a lot less turn based combat systems. There's now several different battle systems and most games use on screen enemies that can be encountered or avoided (I think starting with Chrono Trigger).

What made old JRPG's "work" is that they were one of the only genres on consoles that got you invested into a story and characters. Few games really had much of a story in the late 80's and 90's. JRPG's had a lot more writing to them and dialogue and other characters in your party that you cared about.

Story and Character development has now spread to other genres. People no longer thave to put up with things they disliked like random encounters and turn based abstracted battles to have story in a video game and well written characters. As a result, JRPG's aren't favorable anymore, despite themselves having changed to not include a lot of the things people gave them flak over.

I try to go back and play old JRPG's now and have trouble stomaching the boring turn based combat and annoying random encounters every few steps. I only enjoyed them for story, characters, music in some cases, and some interesting features like zelda style puzzles and tools in Lufia II. But otherwise it's walk a few steps, random battle tape down the A button until they're all dead, walk a few steps, random battle, tape down the A button till they're all dead, yawn.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:27:28 2013 No.565547

>>565457
Honestly I see absolutely no difference between modern and 90's JRPG's. It's a limited genre that's gone everywhere it can go.

There are still things modern JRPG's could incorporate but choose not to. Class customization and more battle type experimentation would be nice. Really though, while the games are no less fun then they were, everything about it has stagnated to the point where every new game is a ripoff of another game.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:27:58 2013 No.565553

Better style, better music. Simple games that moved fast and were a blast to play. FF4 and PS4 are the examples I'd use of oldschool RPGs that succeed in pretty much everything and I could and do replay constantly.

There are still good modern RPGs, but way too much pedo/creeper pandering. Take one of the few I've played recently; Agarest War, for example. I'd be embarrassed to show it to anyone. The disc is basically a picture of a naked animu chick. The game is just oldschool s-rpg fun though.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:31:28 2013 No.565576 File: 162 KB, 440x1490, 1366197263596.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>565459 Just like animu

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:33:58 2013 No.565591

>And why are they so vehemently detested now?
They aren't. That's just /v/ being fucking retarded and their obsession with hurr durr otakupanderingpedomoeshit baaaaaaaaaaw why can't we get more manly anime like dragon ball and cowboy bebop ;___;

The sad thing is that I can expect some of those answers here too.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:35:58 2013 No.565605 >>565591 Pretty much this. There are too many normalfags on /v/ that can't accept the simple concept of discussing Japanese and Western games on the same board.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:37:58 2013 No.565619 >>565576 >edo period LOL

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:38:28 2013 No.565623 >>565576 60's and 70's confirmed for best style

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:41:28 2013 No.565638 >>565576 I don't know why they chose Saber Marionette for the 90's example, because most 90's anime didn't really look like that.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:43:28 2013 No.565641

>>565453
They worked back in the 16-bit days because they managed to have good characters, decent pacing and great music.
The PSX-generation ruined all of that with edgy emo bullshit, FMV and general drawn-out dullness.
The PS2-generation hammered it firmly into the ground by sprinkling bad English dubbing on top of the already steaming pile of shit that remained.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:43:28 2013 No.565642
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The technical limitations, I think.

Back then, a lot of characters may have had comparatively more depth, as >>565546 said, but the more simple graphics and lack of voice acting allowed you to imbue the characters with your own idea of their personality to a certain extent. You felt invested in the world, and that made it easier to stomach turns-based random encounters.

Conversely, in a lot of modern JRPGs (hell, a lot of modern games), you're railroaded by the director's vision of the characters and world.

When you pair that with gameplay which doesn't allow you to explore or make a marked impact on much of the world the designers have spent making, you've usually got a shoddily-produced, barely interactive movie that takes forever to finish.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:43:58 2013 No.565645 >>565638 Maybe they though it was the most "prevalent" example. The 00 are cherrypicking too, only Kyo Ani shows look like that.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:47:28 2013 No.565659 I actually love some aspects of modern JRPGs. Older ones were linear as fuck. At least the SNES ones were. Modern ones are extremely expansive. It's a fucking shame they fucking went to shit though

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:47:28 2013 No.565661 >>565453 Basically, lack of creativeness. After they figured out what works for what audience, it just turned into straight genera. Could be that the audience also changed, and wants WRPGs instead.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:48:58 2013 No.565662 >>565576 The 80's hair is more 90's IMO. 80's hair was usually big and fluffy. Face is perfect though.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:48:58 2013 No.565667 It became cool to hate anime for no reason and, by extension, all things Japanese/

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:49:28 2013 No.565669
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JRPG were a niche "back then"
JRPG are still a niche "now"
They are "vehemently detested" by people who don't are from that niche.
I'm talking about western audiences by the way but this could also fit with the Japanese audiences somewhat too but not as much. There are exceptions though like Dragon Quest which is basically a national sport.

How hard is that to get? It's like you people search for the most contrived and stupid reasons to hate on games.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:49:58 2013 No.565674

>>565642

it's not even that really, because you could "make it up in your head" in a lot of old games of other genre. What drew people to JRPG's in the SNES period was narrative, plain and simple. Here's a game with an actual plot, with actual emotions and twists and betrayals

Few games in other genres could do that. Ninja Gaiden was about the first on consoles.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:50:28 2013 No.565676 >>565667 I've always wondered since when /v/ started to hate and call "weeaboo" anything remotely Japanese. You are even called weeaboo nowadays for liking fucking Mario. What the hell happened?

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:51:58 2013 No.565685

>>565453
There are still plenty of good JRPG's but I feel like the genre has kind of stagnated too. There are a ton of competent JRPG's on the PSP but very few of them actually do anything interesting. They use the same characters, stories and tropes plus they take 50 hours or more to finish and start feelin like a chore much earlier than that.

I have a hard time sticking with a game that's going to take 20 hours or more if I can guess everything in the story before it happens.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:53:28 2013 No.565694 >>565547 >. It's a limited genre that's gone everywhere it can go. I went back and played a ton of SNES and PS1 JRPGs I havent played before and there is a lot that modern JRPGs never took hold of

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:53:58 2013 No.565698 >>565685 >but I feel like the genre has kind of stagnated too Every genre ever.avi

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:54:58 2013 No.565707 Moeshit everywhere Cliche animu plot Voice acting

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:55:58 2013 No.565710

When I was growing up playing NES and SNES I never played JRPGs. At all. I'm not sure why but that's just how it was. I felt like I really missed out on something so I'm going back and playing them now. I chose to dive in first with FFVI and I'm really enjoying it. Gameplay is slightly dated, but I'm still having a good time with it. I don't know what it is though that's managed to intrigue me.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:57:59 2013 No.565731

>>565659

I like quite a few modern JRPG's, I also liked some older JRPG's but I play them now and find the older systems kind of yawn inducing.

Classic JRPG's I still find enjoyable are Crystalis, Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy Adventure (first mana game really), because those are action RPG's that have fun playstyles. I also really like Lufia II and Chrono Trigger, for innovations they added to the genre, but what really took charge of my tastes in JRPG's was Tales of Phantasia, and Star Ocean. Once I saw what could be done with an action RPG, I never really wanted to look back. Dragon Quest games bore the shit out of me, Final Fantasy games.. story and characters but the gameplay is so old hat I just can't hold interest. Lufia 1, Breath of Fire series same deals.

I'm trying to stomach through Phantasy Star IV for the first time but it's pretty boring to play, hopefully it gets better as you get vehicles.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 19:58:58 2013 No.565737

I wouldn't call them detested. /v/ has a passionate hatred for them but I still see tons of hype for stuff like new Persona games, Tales and even Final Fantasy Versus.

The difference is just that games are way more expensive to make these days, so a lot of companies don't want to put all the money and time into making a lengthy JRPG. As a result, they're a lot less prominent this gen then they have been in the past, so they get less exposure.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:01:04 2013 No.565752

They are detested because games like Final Fantasy 13, Star Ocean 4, Lost Odyssey et al are garbage.

If you want decent JRPGs, you pick up a PSP or DS and get the good stuff.

I still prefer the 80s style artwork and retro music though, that stuff is greatly missed.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:07:59 2013 No.565790

>>565737

the JRPG fanbase is divided because JRPG's have gone in multiple directions.

Traditional turn based systems with random encounters who like modern Japanese culture (the real "weaboos") go towards SMT/Persona

Action RPG fans who still want a JRPG experience look to things like Tales and Star Ocean

Action RPG fans that are more WRPG fans look at things like Nier and Souls

Final Fantasy has moved to somewhere in between action and turn based, focusing on active time but still menu driven, with gambits for other characters.

Then there's another playstyle, in Xenoblade that is almost like an MMO in playstyle.

Then there's the REALLY huge faggots who just want to play games about "cute moe girls doing cute moe things" that do Neptunia, Aetlier, Racetear, etc.

So you see.. it's diverged a lot.

In the 90's most JRPG's played the traditional way, with only a limited selection of Action RPG's, and most people who played Turn based also enjoyed Secret of Mana. So it was 1 fairly universal fanbase.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:09:59 2013 No.565805

JRPGs lost everything that made them interesting; a world to explore, characters that were anything but animu archetypes, and not androgynous high-schoolers, design that created a cohesive sense of place and world and society rather than just being a bunch of obnoxious, poorly-realized 'concepts'. At the same time, they picked up long, boring, interminable cinematics, plots that are complicated and melodramatic without earning either of those, and ridiculous, uninteresting characters with stupid, uninteresting design.

I can't remember one I've liked in the last 10 years or so. You all are deluding yourself if you think they've not gotten worse. I've played the old ones recently. They still hold up. New ones are fucking awful. Let's live in the real world and stop pretending nothing's changed.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:09:59 2013 No.565807

>>565453
IMO RPGs (and this applies to most other genres as well) are becoming too cinematic. Xenosaga had cutscenes 45-60 minutes long, and I know FF13 had quite a few beefy ones too. I know it sounds silly to complain about that for RPGs where there is an emphasis on story, but there is a breaking point. I miss NES RPGs where there were no cutscenes. Sometimes less is more. Especially when RPG stories are usually pretty bad to begin with. No need to drone on and on with them.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:10:58 2013 No.565814 >>565707 >voice acting FUCKING THIS

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:11:28 2013 No.565821 >>565737 >As a result, they're a lot less prominent this gen People say this without realizing the DS and PSP were this gen and they got tons of RPG's

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:11:28 2013 No.565826 >>565807 >Xenosaga Holy fuck man, those cutscenes, I still, to this day, can't remember what the Encephalon was for or why I was supposed to care. Did KOS-MOS ever find love and humanity? I never managed to finish it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:11:58 2013 No.565825 Why are there like 5 jrpg discussion threads? The US is getting past its Japanese phase much like it got past its Australian phase before it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:14:28 2013 No.565841 >>565826 Can't say anything about humanity, but I definitely have some long hard love she can borrow.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:15:58 2013 No.565861

>>565825

>not realizing anime/manga is bigger than ever all over the world

The school where I teach has a bunch of manga in its library. I'm not saying it's a good thing, most of the anime is terrible whereas a lot of the old stuff is better (though there's still a massive amount of terrible stuff) but you're just wrong.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:17:58 2013 No.565875 >>565841 Right? Who designs such a fuckable cyborg for combat?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:19:29 2013 No.565887 >>565875 Japanese imperialist perverts

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:20:28 2013 No.565894 >>565814 What's wrong with voice acting.. in some cases it adds a lot to the game, depending on the quality of the acting.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:20:28 2013 No.565897 File: 65 KB, 315x383, bend over.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>565790 >Racetear Fuck you, some of us just want to fuck the residents of a small town with our capitaldick.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:20:28 2013 No.565898 >>565821 JRPG's pretty much migrated completely to handhelds this gen.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:20:58 2013 No.565908

>>565752
>Lost Odyssey
>Garbage

You sir are a swine and you are not my nigga. I respect your opinion, though.

>>565453
I think the floodgates for JRPG hate opened when years ago some major developer at Capcom or whatever it was started trashing on Japan and then mainstream outlets started to vehemently hate the genre.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:21:28 2013 No.565916 >>565894 >in some cases it adds a lot to the game This is literally never true. Especially since it's all terrible English overdubs, and even the original Japanese dubs aren't usually that good.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:22:58 2013 No.565929 >>565908 Lost Odyssey could have been good but it was just too needlessly complicated and the character design was awful. Plus animu tropes. Same with Blue Dragon, which I had high hopes for because Toriyama.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:23:28 2013 No.565932 >>565807 I don't know how Square jumped the shark so hard with FFXIII... Everything about the game was worse than its predecessor. Why would they make an on-the-rails Final Fantasy?

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:23:28 2013 No.565934

>>565894
>Depending on the quality of the acting

This is part of the problem. Let's be real here, a good portion of JRPG dialogue is pretty cringeworthy. Hearing a girly-voiced man or a squeaky, high-pitched "cute girl" barking these words at me really, really bothers me.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:24:28 2013 No.565946 Everyone who liked them was a product of early anime culture, and they all grew up and stopped being faggots.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:24:58 2013 No.565953

>>565908
If Lost Odyssey's battle animations were 3 times faster, the music was more catchy, and they got the damn writers to write the main story and characters instead of little short stories that largely irrelevant to the actual game, it could have been good.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:25:58 2013 No.565963 >>565790 >Racetear You mean Recettear? That's barely a JRPG.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:25:58 2013 No.565967 >>565932 >implying any final fantasy since VII with the possible exception of IX as been anything but worthless shit Can't really speak about IX because I just can't stand it enough to play it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:27:28 2013 No.565982 >>565934 I do like voice acting for battle or certain extremely important scenes. The party talk stuff in Tales of Phantasia worked as well, but that was mostly the A-list Seiyuu.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:27:28 2013 No.565983

I honestly think JRPGs were a lot better without voice acting. It's almost never enjoyable to listen to, and even the games that do it best always have some area or some character that has an issue with it.

Other than that, I agree that most modern JRPGs are too focused on fan service, lame humor, and worse due to their forced linearity. Hyper Dimension Neptunia may poke a lot of fun at the genre, but that doesn't change the fact it's utterly unappealing to anyone that isn't a closet pedophile.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:27:58 2013 No.565990

>>565861
>Not realizing you're proving my point
The geometrically increased access to more and more material, and the obvious dropping of the average is exactly why we're getting over the obsession.

>1995:ZOMG did you see the demo for that Final Fantasy that's going to be on Playstation? They're up to #7 now. It was blowing my mind. They're showing DBZ every day now on Cartoon Network too.

>2013:FFXIIIWHY? What are these terrible mangas still $10?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:28:28 2013 No.566000 File: 63 KB, 256x360, Dragon_Quest_VIII_Journey_of_the_Cursed_King.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>565894 this is literally the only jrpg with good voice acting

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:29:58 2013 No.566007

>>565967
>hurrr all new games are garbage
I agree that VIII, IX, and lolMMO were awful, and only X-2 was good in the series, but if you got more than 3 hours into FFXII, I don't think you'd say it's garbage

It had the most diverse (and "fun") combat system in the final fantasies, because it actually involved strategy (and not rock-paper-scissors) and wasn't just turn based

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:29:58 2013 No.566008 >>566000 Shadow Hearts: Covenant was pretty good too, but not /vr/

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:30:59 2013 No.566017 >>565967 >>566007 oh also, VI was clearly the superior pre-VII Final Fantasy

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:30:59 2013 No.566019

>>565990

I understand what you're saying. I remember the days when I thought all anime was cool dark stuff like Gannmu and Yoshiaki Kawajiri movies and Akira, because that's all we got over here. Kids today get exposed to the glut of other terrible shit that comes out, and they get the worst impression of it.

I still think it's fairly popular though.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:30:59 2013 No.566024 >>565990 Blame the Merger with Enix, the companies alone were doing just fine.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:31:29 2013 No.566031 >>566000 Newer ones aren't having the atrocious voice acting of the late 90's. Now English actors have more experience with the medium and do better. There's some JRPG's with acting that I found really well done, but they're not retro.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:32:29 2013 No.566038
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>old JRPGs
>grabbed your attention quickly
>started off simple and steadily got more complex
>"This is truly one of the best game ever made..."

>modern JRPGs
>Try to "wow" you with ridiculous CG cutscenes where characters to insanely ridiculous shit you can't even do in the real game.
>fanservice out the ass and up the dress
>think having a ridiculously over complicated turn based fighting system is cool.
>"It sucks for about the first 20 hours, but then it gets really good!..."

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:32:29 2013 No.566040 >>566024 I don't think it's Enix's fault. You should blame Toriyama instead for wanting to shove his waifu down everyone's throat and making hallway simulators.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:33:29 2013 No.566047

>>566007

X-2 was execrably awful but it was trying to do something different and I'll give it credit for that. Really, I admire it. I can't play FFXII. Hate the battle system, loathe the characters and art design. They need to bring Amano back, that's all there is to it. I'm hoping that one day they'll realize how wrong they've gone, because I still want to love Final Fantasy.

>>566017

I agree with this. It might even be better than VII.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:33:59 2013 No.566050

>>566031
>English actors have more experience

As somebody who grew up with the voice actor for the villain in Infinite Undiscovery, I can tell you for a fact that he was chosen off the street in Shanghai because the director liked his haircut. I was there. I saw this happen.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:34:59 2013 No.566063 >>566038 You're a little bit off there. I seem to remember a solid 5-10 minutes in FFIV where you couldn't even control your character or could only talk to people. Not exactly engaging.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:35:58 2013 No.566073

>>566000

It has exceptionally good voice acting. It just doesn't need it. It maybe even improves without it. Plus I dislike the overwhelming Britishness of the localization more and more as time goes on. But given the fairytale context of the story, I suppose it works in a way. I just keep hating it worse and worse.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:36:28 2013 No.566079 >>566019 Not for much longer. It's currently in that "too many idiots like it" category that things fall into before they fall out of fashion.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:36:58 2013 No.566080 >>566063 Oh yeah, as opposed to something that even modern JRPG gamers like - like Persona 4 - where you can't do ANYTHING for the first two hours of the game. I wish I was exaggerating.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:37:28 2013 No.566089 >>566063 That still pales in comparison the ridiculous 45-minute cutscenes of today. And everything going on there was pretty solidly story or character-related, rather than eye candy.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:37:28 2013 No.566090

>>566047
The younger characters in XII (Vaan, Penelo) were fucking obnoxious, but once Balthier got more screen time, I started to enjoy the story.
The further you get in the story, the less Vaan actually matters, and the more important Ashe, Balthier, and Basch become.
The battle system becomes more interesting as your party develops and you get equips to make your characters actually unique.
And we're on the same page regarding VI.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:37:28 2013 No.566093

>>566050

I meant comparatively between now and the late 90's when voice acting first started being added to video games in substantial amounts. You now have "veteran" voice actors doing these dubs instead of this being their first voice gig. People like Nolan North, Troy Baker, and Steve Blum are very experienced and good.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:37:58 2013 No.566087

From my personal experience, I started playing more and more pc games. I played a lot the SNES, and dreamcast, and ps2 rpgs. I didn't own any of the last generation consoles, and Morrowind, and Dragon age Origin, and other wrpgs ended up taking more of my time as I got older.

I've been wanting to try Persona 3 & 4 however it's hard to play a game when it's more of a chore to find/hook up or buy a piece of hardware just to play it.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:39:28 2013 No.566103

>>566079

Well, maybe that's good. Maybe it'll shrink back to what it used to be and we'll just get the cool, dark stuff again.

Although I'm becoming less and less certain that kind of stuff exists. The greats of anime from my childhood haven't fared well.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:39:58 2013 No.566112

>>566089
>>566080

Never played persona, playing a high school student in modern Japan does not interest me one tiny bit. Games I did play had maybe 5 minutes of plot exposition before being able to control your character, which is I find, pretty standard for the genre since the 90's.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:40:58 2013 No.566117 >>566090 VI is ridiculously well-written and beautiful, even by today's standards. See kids, THAT'S what it used to be like.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:40:58 2013 No.566120

>>566080
That was pretty damn bad in Persona 4. Wasn't it close to an hour before you even get into a battle and then you still had to sit through a bunch of cutscenes before you had a bit of freedom to do Social Links, raise stats, or go into Yukiko's castle?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:41:29 2013 No.566134 File: 163 KB, 960x760, 208935_381610445233425_1420436918_n.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>566112 >games I did play >can't name them off the top of his head as an example to actually refute the points made LOL OK.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:41:58 2013 No.566128 >>566112 >high school student in modern Japan That sentence is pretty much everything I hate about anime today.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:43:58 2013 No.566146 >>566134 Fill in the blank. Games like Chrono Trigger, Treasure of the Rudras, Live-a-Live, FFVI, etc.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:44:58 2013 No.566154 >>566134 Is the kid in the picture the same that keeps making those LOZ "where do I go" threads every day?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:45:28 2013 No.566159 >>566134 Damn, dat nigga likes Zelda.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:45:28 2013 No.566162

JRPG's back then at least tried to create interesting worlds, while WRPG's were mostly (I said mostly, not all) about ye goode olde medieval fantasy setting.

At least that's what I think, I didn't really play any WRPG games back during the Playstation era, and I didn't have PC.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:45:28 2013 No.566164 >>566146 Wait, are you referring to "modern" JRPGS you have played that only took 5 or 10 minutes before jumping in? Or Retro? Because those are all retro, man.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:46:58 2013 No.566168 >>566164 I'm not the same guy, but I imagine he was going for a juxtaposition.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:50:28 2013 No.566191 >>566162 Back then, JRPGs were about as medieval-friendly as WRPGs actually. The only one that truly felt different was the SMT series, which was Japan-only during that time.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:50:58 2013 No.566195 File: 318 KB, 725x720, 1366055336602.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>565457 >Little Princess 2 >Those legs

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:50:58 2013 No.566197 >>566063 And let us not forget Dragon Warrior 7...

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:53:28 2013 No.566216 >>566195 Bit thick for me

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 20:58:58 2013 No.566256

it's very simple

back then game limitations made it so interactive story driven games that were contained and guided had the quality to draw people in. Now though, with advancements, Worlds have opened up and with so much more to do that same formula that allowed JRPGs to rule doesn't work anymore. it's how Bioware fell. They took that JRPG concept and westernized it but as games evolved they tried to stick with their same formula of containing the the gameplay/story and ultimately it led to their downfall....ie not opening TOR up.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:00:59 2013 No.566272 >>566256 >doesn't work anymore That's complete bullshit. They just need to make a well-written game in the old style with new graphics. Bioware games have fuck all to do with JRPGs as well, I'll tell you that flat out.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:04:58 2013 No.566307 >>566272 >They just need to make a well-written game in the old style with new graphics. Ys has remained pure. Go get Ys Origins off Steam.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:07:28 2013 No.566329 >>566307 I could never get into the combat in Ys. I guess I should give it another chance.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:07:28 2013 No.566336 So, what obscure PS1 JRPGs are worth giving a try? I mean, outside the obvious choices like the FFs, Xenogears, and Vagrant Story.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:09:28 2013 No.566346 >>566256 >so much more to do There's less and less to do in modern JRPGs though you simpleton. FFXIII is literally one long corridor separated by horrific cutscenes. I don't mean to be cruel, I just can't get over how fucking braindead you sound.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:09:59 2013 No.566351 >>566336 I dunno. Legend of Legaia or Wild Arms or Valkyrie Profile. They're not obscure by any means, though.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:10:29 2013 No.566357 >>566336 Parasite Eve is good. And what the fuck ever Breath of Fire game was on there. And what was that sort of pokemon-game where you raised monsters from seeds or something? I liked that one.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:13:28 2013 No.566404 >>566103 7 Seeds is awesome. Awesome.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:13:59 2013 No.566406 >>566134 The reason being is we're talking about non retro games on a retro board, I want to limit that as I've already been warned for it once.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:13:59 2013 No.566407 >>566357 Jade Cocoon?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:14:28 2013 No.566413 >>566346 It's not very far off what the genre used to be though. Just the old games didn't have constant corridors, they had large square areas with one entrance and one exit.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:15:28 2013 No.566426 >>566407 THAT'S the one. Thought that was a really interesting game.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:15:58 2013 No.566427 File: 44 KB, 694x360, uzoislandmap.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>566413 This is a dungeon, causals.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:17:28 2013 No.566443 >>566427 >one dungeon from a game known for its complex dungeons >somehow representative of the majority of the subgenre I don't think so Tim.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:18:28 2013 No.566454 >>566427 >Mareuna Plant dude what

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:19:28 2013 No.566465

>>566413

And a bunch of rooms and secret treasures and even hidden passages. Just stop talking.

Plus old JRPGs had a whole overworld map allowing you to go pretty much wherever you want which might sometimes have optional dungeons or secrets to find. Seriously just stop talking.

And also they didn't have ridiculous cutscenes and the non-interactive portions there were communicated things about the world or the characters or the story that helped to build a more cohesive picture of the fantastic imaginary universe you were occupying. Seriously you're just embarrassing yourself.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:21:59 2013 No.566505 >>566427 That actually seems pretty straight-forward. It's just the craggy layout and the dummy plants that make it look hard.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:24:59 2013 No.566536

>>566465
>And a bunch of rooms and secret treasures and even hidden passages.
Present in many modern JRPGs too.
>Plus old JRPGs had a whole overworld map allowing you to go pretty much wherever you want
Hahaha, no. I lost count at how many games do their railroading shtick precisely to prevent this. Example, in order to go further there's a gate, in order to pass it you need to consult the king, which then sends you to the only accessible dungeon in that area. Lather rinse repeat. The worst thing is, a shitload of JRPGs keep doing this even after you get the boat/airship/dragon/whatever of the game, which is at least indirectly implied to unlock the whole world for you.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:25:00 2013 No.566551 >>566505 >tfw you're still talking Let's just say it IS an illusion of exploration, which isn't a point I concede at all. Even if it is, can't we at least say it's a convincing illusion, an argument we can't make for modern JRPGs in the slightest?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:27:28 2013 No.566575 >>566536 You can still go wherever you want within an accessible area though. This generally encompasses at least a few towns and a dungeon or two, like in Chrono Trigger for instance.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:27:58 2013 No.566571
File: 189 KB, 250x350, Xenoblade_box_artwork.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>566551
>Let's just say it IS an illusion of exploration, which isn't a point I concede at all. Even if it is, can't we at least say it's a convincing illusion, an argument we can't make for modern JRPGs in the slightest?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:29:28 2013 No.566590 >>566571 Didn't play it. Isn't it an MMO? That alone makes me completely uninterested. Even if it is some exception, it's just one among a vast array of garbage games.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:32:28 2013 No.566623

>>566575
Having access to a few towns and a dungeon or two is hardly "wherever I want". Funny that you mention Chrono Trigger, which is one of the (relatively) most open JRPGs. What about all the DQs and FFs? Or Breath of Fire, Xenogears? Or maybe something more obscure, like Treasure of the Rudras? The genre's full of it, a few rare (and not even that profound) examples of the contrary prove nothing.

>>566590
Xenoblade isn't a MMO at all.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:34:28 2013 No.566641 >>566590 it has MMO like systems but it's a single player game.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:35:28 2013 No.566660 The plots are not as simple. A lot of them now get way to convoluted for their own good.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:37:28 2013 No.566684

Old games DID have more exploration. Yeah, you couldn't progress through the story unless you eventually went from point A to point B, but things like towns and caves did have quite a few interesting things.

-Hidden items (I remember checking every fucking clock in FFVI for elixirs)
-Hidden or Optional characters (Umario, Gogo, Shadow, and Mog in FFVI...Magus was purely optional in Chrono Trigger, etc.)
-Secret moves and items that could only be found by fighting in certain areas, as a reward for effort (Illumina Sword and "X-Magic" in FFVI).

You sometimes see these in modern games, but it's really overshadowed by the utter lack of exploration or just outright elimination of these elements.

Closest thing I have seen similar is the stupid chest in FFXII where if you open it early in the game (which is easily found)...you CAN'T get a badass item later in the game.

And personally, I think that's bullshit. I don't think a game should punish you for exploration and interacting with something as simple as a treasure chest - unless it's an interesting surprise once in awhile like Monster In a Box.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:37:28 2013 No.566686 >>566590 Why do you automatically assume it's an MMO if you never even played it?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:38:28 2013 No.566708 >>566684 Didn't help that the treasure chests in XII always had shit items like Potions, or Rust.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:39:28 2013 No.566713

>>566623

The DQ and FF games (for the most part) let you do what you want. There's always somewhere to go. BoF, Xenogears, and Rudra are certainly a little more linear, but they make up for it by having interesting stories and engaging combat, and all of them still have dungeons that are fun to explore and exploit. Again, if that's an illusion, which it isn't, it's a satisfying one. JRPGs have always been fairly linear, at least compared to WRPGs, but the greats are nothing like the hackneyed, tunnel-vision drivel we get today. There was room to move around and explore within that linear structure, a carefully-structured but vastly interesting world to discover. There's nothing like that today. Although maybe Xenoblade Chronicles is an exception, I don't know.

And we're back to you not knowing what the fuck you're talking about.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:39:58 2013 No.566719 >>566684 FFXII actually has a lot of exploration. A LOT of it. Hidden areas, hidden bosses and stuff. The world is big enough to get lost in. You're practically required to explore to get anywhere.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:40:29 2013 No.566720 >>566641 Ugh. Count me the fuck out. That's why I hate Dragon Quest now.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:40:29 2013 No.566725 >>566719 My nigga. I really like FFXII and think that it gets a lot of hate it doesn't deserve.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:40:58 2013 No.566726 >>566719 Yeah, but...I saw Star Wars when I was seven years old anyway.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:40:58 2013 No.566727

>>566684
>Closest thing I have seen similar is the stupid chest in FFXII where if you open it early in the game (which is easily found)...you CAN'T get a badass item later in the game.
An item you only know of because you've most likely consulted a FAQ or somebody told you about is bothering you? One that you don't need to finish the game even by a wide stretch of imagination?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:42:28 2013 No.566742 >>566726 That's a really faulty counter-argument.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:43:58 2013 No.566760

>>566727
Well you don't need Gogo, Mog, Umaro, or Shadow, or a goddamn Illumina Sword to finish a damn thing in FFVI.

You don't need Magus in Chrono Trigger.

But it's fun and interesting to make those kinds of choices or find those kinds of discoveries.

I fail to see how reducing or getting rid of such things is helping a genre that is becoming a group of heavily stagnated hallway simulators where your only goal is now to trigger cutscenes.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:44:58 2013 No.566767

>>566713
>The DQ and FF games (for the most part) let you do what you want.
This isn't true much really. DQ1 is open, yes, but there is a single digit count of points of interest anyway. FFs (not even all) only truly open in the last quarter to last fifth of the game and even then they give you like four optional dungeons to explore.
>but they make up for it by having interesting stories and engaging combat
We're discussing railroading, nothing else. This stuff has no place here.

>And we're back to you not knowing what the fuck you're talking about.
And we're getting to an ad hominem.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:45:59 2013 No.566778 >>566760 You're acting as if the Zodiac Spear was the only interesting uber content to find in all of FFXII, which is just plain wrong. I bet you'd be complaining about FFVI had it had a Zodiac Spear atop of all the stuff it already has now.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:45:59 2013 No.566779 >>566742 Not really, it's pretty much fucking Star Wars, but with rabbits instead of Wookies.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:46:58 2013 No.566791 >>566779 A great lot of JRPGs are "pretty much Star Wars".

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:48:28 2013 No.566804

>>566778
If the chest had been locked at the beginning of the game, but you could find a key somewhere later in the game to find the item - that would been great. Hell, lots of other games have done that and it's still a great way to reward player memory and discovery.

But FFXII doesn't do that. It just gives you a potion or something for doing what should come natural to every JRPG, and then screws you out of something cool later.

That's bullshit.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:48:28 2013 No.566805 >>566779 But it's not similar to Star Wars at all.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:48:58 2013 No.566808

>>566778
I wouldn't put it past people to think that. FF12 has a metric fuckton of sidequests and optional content. That spear is rock bottom on the list of fun in that game.

Sure, it had a weak story and the battle system was way too different, but if you played that game to any level of completion, by God you got your money's worth.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:49:29 2013 No.566814 >What made JRPGs "work" back then? They were pretty fun >And why are they so vehemently detested now Their typical modern fanbase

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:50:29 2013 No.566823

>>566767

>single-digit count of points of interest

Sure. But there ARE points of interest. This is not the case with modern JRPGs. Your argument then becomes that you are 'almost' railroaded. Can't speak to FFXII because I couldn't get past the obnoxious characters and boring combat enough to play it.

>ad hominem

You familiar with 4chan?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:51:28 2013 No.566835 >>566814 Simplistic but undeniably correct.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:51:58 2013 No.566839 >>566779 Even if it is, it has nothing to do with exploration. I just told you it's actually heavily exploration based and you shit on what I said with something stupid. I see /vr/ is not that different from /v/.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:54:58 2013 No.566871

>>566839
Dude, JRPG is the ultimate completionist genre. To learn 70% of the way through a 30+ hour game that you missed some item due to opening a fucking chest in the first 30 minutes of the game is a perfect reason to be upset.

Nobody is ganking on your enjoyment of it, though. Lots of people loved the Transformers 2 movie, despite it being a horrible piece of shit.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:56:28 2013 No.566883 File: 81 KB, 700x700, 1301759288975.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>566839 >Star Wars Episode 1 is not bad, Jar-Jar is just a small part of it! Yes, that argument is absolutely stupid!...

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:56:58 2013 No.566889 >>566871 Go fuck yourself.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:58:28 2013 No.566904 The powers that be which dictate what's "cool" decided not to hype up JRPGs anymore. US developers use their marketing bux to make sure that Japanese games get hated on.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:58:29 2013 No.566909 File: 136 KB, 290x290, magic man.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>566889

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:58:58 2013 No.566918 >>566871 >Nobody is ganking on your enjoyment of it, though. Lots of people loved the Transformers 2 movie, despite it being a horrible piece of shit. Nice passive-aggression, faggot.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 21:59:58 2013 No.566924

>And why are they so vehemently detested now?

We don't get many that are realistic in character interaction. Most of what we get is 'too japanese' for most people to handle. Star Ocean: The Last Hope for example. On PS3 it has all the typical anime bullshit cliches(according to my friend), and on x360, I saw none of that behavior, otherwise I think it would have turned me off from the game as well.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:00:29 2013 No.566928 File: 61 KB, 500x336, 1355338775562.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>566918 >>566889 >>566839 samefag, and definitely the one on the right.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:06:28 2013 No.566971 >>566924 It might be wrong to assume that the majority of Japanese people like the terrible writing associated with anime tropes any more than we do. There are a lot of stupid kids over there too.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:07:29 2013 No.566984 >>566971 >kids >Japan They have the lowest birthrate around, so it's really just teenagers and manchildren keeping it alive at the moment.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:10:58 2013 No.567015

>>566971

Bingo. As someone who lived in Japan until recently, I can tell you that to a lot of older people anime is no different than a cartoon; it's just kids stuff even though there are a lot of adult animes. Not only that but I had plenty of friends who hate the overly cute tone that anime has today and wish for a return of the 80s/90s animes. Actually one of my older friends, who's about 32 years old, has a PS3 and the only games he has are games like Killzone, Blops, Sports, Demon's and Dark Souls and can't stand 'that anime shit'.

There's been a real shift in what anime constitutes in the last 10 years, and I'm telling you not everybody likes it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:10:58 2013 No.567017 >>565576 >Just like animu Anyone who says this doesn't actually watch anime.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:13:28 2013 No.567050 >>565707 >Moeshit everywhere Buzzwords everywhere.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:14:58 2013 No.567065 But, objectively, Dragonball Z is just as awful as Naruto. How terrible anime is has been constant. Its only the games that have changed.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:15:58 2013 No.567081

>>565453
I'll be honest. It is a little of both.

From the game standpoint, most developers have left the philosophical story with a 2deep love story behind... and I enjoyed the ever living shit out of that.

But now I'm older... and that storyline doesn't work the same for me like it used to.... or maybe it does? Xenogears is the perfect example- and still goes down as my favorite game of all time- but I grew up, I got out of the lovelorn teenage years, and moved onto different things.But I take a look at the games coming out now, and the love stories are retarded.

Xenoblade and Last Story both were awesome games in a sea of bullshit, and they both had philosophical stories with a 2deep love story.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:17:29 2013 No.567101 >>565790 >Then there's the REALLY huge faggots who just want to play games about "cute moe girls doing cute moe things" that do Neptunia, Aetlier, Racetear, etc. All aboard the bandwagon!

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:20:29 2013 No.567132

>>567015

Shit man, you don't know how cool it is to know that there's people over there who want a return to the old stuff too.

I think the problem is that the Japanese government has turned anime into a cultural export, so it has to get more universal and less interesting.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:24:58 2013 No.567176

>>567101
What's wrong with Atelier? Sometimes I want something easygoing I can laugh at instead of being depressed as all Hell and kicked straight in the feels.

Of course, Neptunia is just fucking horrible. I played the first game and jesus christ I could throw a piano down a flight of stairs and have a much better soundtrack than that. Sadly, I really loved the aesthetics of the game.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:26:28 2013 No.567201 >>567176 >>567101 Misquote, was aiming at >>565790

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:27:58 2013 No.567208 >>567176 >Sometimes I want something easygoing I can laugh at instead of being depressed as all Hell and kicked straight in the feels. For God's sake don't play Mana Khemia.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:30:58 2013 No.567228 You don't need to sacrifice gameplay to allow for a larger story anymore. They became obsolete as they faded into other genres.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:34:58 2013 No.567260 >>567176 Moe shit, that's what's wrong with it. I forgot to mention Ar Tonelico too. More moe shit, even worse with its focus on jpop in the battles.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:36:28 2013 No.567278 >>567260 >Moe shit, that's what's wrong with it. ERROR: >OPINION Come up with a better excuse for hating it.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:36:28 2013 No.567283

>>567132

Well, I'm not so sure it's the Japanese government forcing companies to continue making anime like they are right now. It is true that one of Japan's biggest exports is media and entertainment, especially videogames and anime. The fact is that even though there are people like my friend and I, modern anime still sells and it sells well. I have some younger cousins who eat modern anime up like it's ambrosia. The only thing we can do is wait for the next generation of anime to replace it and hope that it's better than what we have now.

Honestly though, I rarely ever watched anime in Japan. I found myself watching cartoon network on satellite at my sister's house when I did sit down to watch TV. They still play Dexter's Lab and Powerpuff Girls and all that in Japan, it's so boss

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:37:28 2013 No.567290 >>567278 how is it not moe shit?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:37:58 2013 No.567303 >>567290 "Moe shit" is not only undefined, the only imaginable definition is paradoxical. Use real words to convey your thoughts.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:38:28 2013 No.567308 >>565752 >hatting on anything by Tri-ace kill yourself

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:40:28 2013 No.567328 >>565453 I don't know about detested but back then Japan was new and cool and foreign. Also now all their protagonists are brooding prettyboys.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:40:28 2013 No.567337 >>567328 >Also now all their protagonists are brooding prettyboys. No they aren't. When are people going to stop spouting this bullshit? Jesus.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:41:59 2013 No.567347

>>567308

>defending anything bout Star Ocean 4 aside from it's very enjoyable combat

We really shouldn't be talking about modern JRPG's though.

I think we can all agree that JRPG's have diverged and branched in a lot of different directions and that classic retro JRPG's were all pretty similar so they had a larger fanbase as a whole.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:42:29 2013 No.567349 >>567260 >even worse with its focus on jpop in the battles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fXYcP8-mFo jpop

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:42:58 2013 No.567354 >>565576 What the hell, 90s?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:43:29 2013 No.567364 >>567337 When it stops being true.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:44:29 2013 No.567380 >>567364 But it's never been true.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:44:58 2013 No.567389 >>567349 I'm mostly talking about Ar Tonelico 3 where every video I've seen of combat has been focused on watching a loli girl strip clothing while she sings jpop. That's a game that if your father saw you playing it, he'd lose all hope for you.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:45:29 2013 No.567391 anime and japan in general isn't considered cool/exotic anymore, like it was for the late 80's/90's/early 00's

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:46:58 2013 No.567398 >>565576 the 90's picture is pretty seriously inaccurate aside from those fucking lines under the eyes

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:46:58 2013 No.567404 >>567364 Name 10 RPGs from the past 5 years that starred brooding prettyboys. Each listed protagonist must fill both the requirement of being a prettyboy and brooding. You have 20 minutes.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:47:59 2013 No.567414

>>565546
the thing about this post that hurts the most

>Few games really had much of a story in the late 80's and 90's. JRPG's had a lot more writing to them and dialogue and other characters in your party that you cared about.

theres all this talk about how storylines in games are becoming less important, and interactiev movies are becoming the norm.... its like the audiance and the game makers are punching themselves in the face and trying to win a boxing match.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:48:28 2013 No.567425 Japan isn't as cool anymore. Anime isn't mainstream anymore and Japan doesn't dominate the market on videogames.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:50:28 2013 No.567440 >>567349 >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fXYcP8-mFo That's pretty good...

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:50:58 2013 No.567445

They don't have enough random goofy badly made minigames

ff7threw random shit at you every hour or so to mix things up, ff13 is just cutscene -> tube of fights -> cutscene over and over for ages with nothing besides a single stupid mech sequence to break up the pace

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:51:28 2013 No.567450 >>567425 What does anime have to do with JRPGs?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:51:28 2013 No.567452 >>567354 Sabre Marionette. Not at all indicative of what anime/manga looked like as a whole in the 90s as it's probably one of the most extremely stylised/exaggerated art styles of the time.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:51:58 2013 No.567458 >>567450 ...is that a serious question?

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:52:58 2013 No.567476

>>567425
Anime was never exactly "mainstream" in Japan. It was always referred as a niche and disgusting hobby in Japan. Yes, a good portion of Japan utterly hates anime with an iron fist. But you are correct on how Japan isn't nearly as dominate in the market anymore.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:53:28 2013 No.567478 >>567450 im not sure...what to believe anymore. i cant take /vr/ seriously. arent you supposed to be older than 16?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:54:28 2013 No.567487 >>567476 You need to make the distinction between late-night anime and family-oriented anime. Because what you're saying is completely false when applied to family-oriented anime.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:54:28 2013 No.567492 >>567476 I've never read anything that wrong in my life.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:56:58 2013 No.567510

>>567404

not the same guy, but what he's mostly referring to is Final Fantasy 8 and the Advent Children version of Cloud that basically put a stigma and stereotype on JRPG protagonists even if it's mostly untrue (frankly with all the moe shit there's more loli girl protagonists than any kind of male protagonist it seems)

There are a few protags that sustain the stereotype though. Emil from ToS 2, Edge from SO4.

But really it was Squall that started the stereotype.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:56:58 2013 No.567512 >>567487 Sorry, I wasn't thinking about family oriented shows when I made that statement.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:56:58 2013 No.567516

>>567487
This.

Stuff like Doraemon and Sazae-san have huge ratings and have been on for decades. A fair amount of shounen series like Meitantei Conan and One Piece also do really well and have a lot of general audience appeal.

The moeshit that /a/ fawn over, on the other hand, isn't nearly as popular/accepted overall.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 22:59:58 2013 No.567550 >>565707 >Moeshit everywhere >Cliche animu plot >Voice acting Pretty much the reason I avoid jrpgs and anime now

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 23:04:58 2013 No.567593 >>567450 It goes to how Japan isn't as big in America anymore.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 23:06:28 2013 No.567603 >>565707 I get VA and plot, but I don't see where moeshit is invading tons of games that get localized other than Neptunia.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 23:12:59 2013 No.567660 >>565707 But dude. They were always like hat except for voice acting.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 23:13:58 2013 No.567669 >>566134 >He's wearing a Griz hat >He possibly in my city >I could be having a beer with this guy RIGHT NOW. Wait, he looks 14.

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 23:15:28 2013 No.567687

JRPGs were the few games where you would get world-building and actual character development. Now games come with that as standard.

Also, FFVII was a technical showpiece. It looked amazing at the time. It just for some reason became "the game" to buy the PS1 for. Ain't no one gonna buy a PS1 to play Beyond the Beyond.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 23:16:59 2013 No.567694 >>566134 WHERE'S NINTENDO POWER

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 28 23:21:58 2013 No.567746 >>566684 You realize that FFVI has the same "open chest early -> can't get better item later" thing, right?

Anonymous Sun Apr 28 23:24:28 2013 No.567776

>>567746
I was thinking the same thing about his post and FFVI is worse about it because it's nearly every chest, along with hidden item locations not in chests, and sometimes there's multiple changeovers or the items change into something not quite as good.

This from someone who loves FFVI.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 04:34:59 2013 No.569818

>>565894
>What's wrong with voice acting

Fucking everything. It forces a pace on you, limits complexity due to needing everything to be spoken, sounds fucking awful not only because of the voices themselves but because the dialogue is terrible, ruins immersion, undermines the atmosphere, disturbs the background music, etc etc etc.

On top of that you still get text boxes BUT NO OPTION TO TURN THE VOICESHIT OFF.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 04:37:59 2013 No.569834 >>567687 Lel, FF7 looked like shit compared to other games.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 04:47:29 2013 No.569867 >>569834 No, it didn't Can't say much else to you, it just didn't. It was really impressive, particularly for an RPG.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 04:54:59 2013 No.569912

It's important to note that modern console JRPGs are kind of dog shit now.

Seriously, the only examples I can think of off hand that are exceptions are Xenoblade, Lost Odyssey, Tales of Vesperia, and the Souls games. Valkyria Chronicles and Ni no Kuni might fit in there, but I don't have a PS3.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 05:05:29 2013 No.569971 ... Are Demon and Dark Souls considered jrpgs?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 05:10:59 2013 No.569992 >>569971 I'm sure as hell they're not WRPGs at least. I always hear some jackass claiming they are just because they're not anime/turn-based. I don't remember any of the DOS-era classics or late 90s/early 2000s gems even resembling Souls.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 05:35:29 2013 No.570048
File: 958 KB, 2053x2496, 11382473a.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

other than obvious changes in artstyles over the years, i don't really see any difference between the jrpgs of then and now.

most modern games have more accessible uis. powerful hardware has allowed developers to create larger games and scenarios. turn based gameplay is still popular. vn elements have started to fuse with jrpgs and vice versa.

i don't get the normalfags and 'muh moeshit' though. jrpgs always mirror the popular art styles of the time because artists are professionals. they work in a variety of fields, not just video games. many artists who design characters and settings for video games also work in animation.

compared to some of the newer jrpgs of the mid and late 2000s, 90s jrpgs are incredibly short. the characters are dull because they don't have voice acting adding a level of personality and the tropes are older and more limited in scope. settings were void of npcs and 'save the world' felt more like 'save your party and this random character we killed off in the beginning of the game'.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 05:47:29 2013 No.570087 >>565453 Standards, what little there are. Plus you can only tell the same story so many times before people start saying... yeah that's nice and all, but we heard it before.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 06:02:29 2013 No.570132 File: 18 KB, 256x223, selfhelp.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >voice acting >listening to all that cringeworthy shit your generic RPG party says Voice acting has made jRPGs as embarassing to play as watching animu

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 07:36:30 2013 No.570375

>>565457
I disagree. xbox/PS3/wii JRpgs are dogshit, ive played them so i know what im talking about.

THe "good"/slash decent jrpgs are in handhelds so they don-t get much attention

Im guessing Japanese studios can-t keep up with AAA costs. There are so little games and they are so shitty that the new audiences didn-t pick the genre up

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 07:37:29 2013 No.570379 >>569971 No its a shitty hack n slash, they just say its an RPG because its sound better than shitty hack n slash

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 07:41:00 2013 No.570395 >>570379 It's an action-rpg, dude.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 07:45:29 2013 No.570417

>>570395
No its not.

Its HAck n slash, Diablo would be an action RPG. Dark souls is a hack n slash, the game is not centered around dialog quests,puzzles, exploration etc and the combat is not deep or complex enough to make the game qualify as an action game

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 07:51:59 2013 No.570437 >>570417 >and the combat is not deep or complex enough to make the game qualify as an action game [screams internally]

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 08:02:29 2013 No.570480 >>570379 >shitty hack n slash You have just insulted an entire genre played and enjoyed by hundreds and thousands.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 08:07:59 2013 No.570495 >>570417 Diablo is the definition of hack n' slash.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 08:08:29 2013 No.570496 JRPGS have only gotten better Everything gets better over time

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 08:08:29 2013 No.570497 >>570417 >Diablo not hack n slash You shouldn't give yourself away so easily.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 08:15:29 2013 No.570524 The audiance changed. It became too "animeish", and not the good kind.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 08:17:29 2013 No.570531

>>570437

>Dark Souls
>combat not deep enough

the Souls games have some of the most nuanced combat systems I've ever had the pleasure of playing.

They also have stats and character progression, through both leveling/stat allocation, and equipment. It is an action RPG, and one of the best ones ever created. There is exploration, traps, choices (different factions to join, the last choice after the boss with multiple endings), locked doors and keys, hidden alternate routes, hidden treasures. I cannot fathom how that's not an action RPG. Diablo and games like Diablo are inspired by Roguelikes. It is a TYPE of action RPG but there are several types of action RPG. There are action RPG's like Secret of Mana and Crystalis, which were inspired by Zelda, utilizing Zelda like combat with RPG elements such as exp, levels, stats, and upgradeable gear that you can buy in towns, and there's Action RPG's like Tales and Star Ocean that are inspired by combining traditional jRPG exploration and plot progression with combat inspired by fighting games. Action RPG's are a diverse genre all by themselves.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 08:18:59 2013 No.570534 >>570531 meant to reply to >>570417

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 08:20:30 2013 No.570537 >>570048 >the characters are dull because they don't have voice acting adding a level of personality Are characters in books dull too?

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 08:23:59 2013 No.570547

>>567476
>Anime was never exactly "mainstream" in Japan. It was always referred as a niche and disgusting hobby in Japan. Yes, a good portion of Japan utterly hates anime with an iron fist.
Wow, there really is no bullshit normalfags won't make up to demonize and discredit anime, and anything else Japan-related.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 08:27:29 2013 No.570559 >>570531 >the Souls games have some of the most nuanced combat systems I've ever had the pleasure of playing. >dodge >parry >attack >deep combat >can-t even jump >no combos

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 08:30:30 2013 No.570565 >>567510 Bullshit, FF5 guy was a pretty boy FF6 had edgard and locke who were pretty boys same with breath of fire, star ocean,etc

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 08:33:59 2013 No.570569 >>567260 >moeshit >focus on jpop in battles >jpop YOU RUSTLED THE WRONG JIMMIES, MOTHERFUCKER. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OBrWYWurU0

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 08:34:29 2013 No.570570 >>567260 >jpop http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OBrWYWurU0

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 08:39:59 2013 No.570581

>>566031
>Newer ones aren't having the atrocious voice acting of the late 90's. Now English actors have more experience with the medium and do better.
The problem more likely was that not a lot of effort was put into the localizations. There was a lot of good voice acting in the 90s. Grim Fandango, for example, is still some of the best ever done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DbH6edw_PA

A lot of anime films are voiced by regular actors instead of professional voice actors, but their performances are still good. So being inxperienced with voice acting is not the issue.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 08:40:30 2013 No.570582 >>569912 I'm enjoying eternal sonata so far, it's not that bad considering its age.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 08:41:29 2013 No.570586

>>570559

>every weapon has its own moveset (therefore you don't just choose which one has the biggest numbers), requirements, upgrade paths
>no random critical hits, you critical hit by plunging attack, backstab, parry/riposte, or kicking and attacking when their guard is down or head shotting with a bow
>item use in combat to block opponents from healing
>you can jump
>strafing, blocking, parrying, bashing, dodge rolling, backstepping
>2h or 1h grip most weapons
>magic in pyromancies, miracles, sorceries
>positioning of attacks can allow you to cut off tails of some bosses to become weapons

How much of the game have you played? Sounds like you've only seen videos.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 08:56:59 2013 No.570621

>>570586
>every weapon has its own moveset
They all have one attack and nothing else the animation changes but thats it
>no random critical hits, you critical hit by plunging attack, backstab, parry/riposte, or kicking and attacking when their guard is down or head shotting with a bow
>attack move muh combat is so deep

>you can jump
You cant stop bullshiting, theres no aeral combat , platforming and such

>strafing, blocking, parrying, bashing, dodge rolling, backstepping
>Attack move block+ buzzwords

>2h or 1h grip most weapons
>Which don-t change anything you just are smashing the same button to attack

>magic in pyromancies, miracles, sorceries
when you hit attack it shoots lasers instead of swining swords

>positioning of attacks can allow you to cut off tails of some bosses to become weapons
>Dodge the shitty slow telegraphed mediocre attack and then hit the boss!

I wish all DS fags died

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 09:11:59 2013 No.570686 >>570621 okay, now you're just shamelessly rusing.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 09:12:00 2013 No.570695 >>570582 Eternal Sonata is a disaster.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 09:14:29 2013 No.570714

>>570621

it's more than the animation.. attack angle and positioning matters. Wide sweeping attacks and shotels can bypass shields while using spears or thrusting swords make it so that you can attack while blocking at the same time, big overhead attacks can break guard easier due to forcefulness of the attack and cause stagger (unless the target has a lot of poise), there's also leap attacks.

Yes, you can actually jump, there is some platforming involved to get some hidden chests/items

All those evasive moves have strengths and weaknesses to them. Blocking an attack drains your stamina and if you seriously just hole up behind your shield and try to absorb blows not only will it possibly stagger you/knock you down and break your guard, but it can drain all your stamina in a single blow, meaning you can't attack, you can't run, you can't dodge, and you can't block another attack. However it allows you to still be up and facing an enemy allowing you to counterattack. Dodge rolling costs less stamina, however if you're overencumbered in weight, you're really slow doing it meaning they may get a free hit out of it. Parrying is really effective but requires timing or you just hit, but if you pull it off you stagger the opponent and open them to a critical hit.

There's just a lot calculated in the combat, with weight and poise and a shitload of other stats, how much damage of each damage type your shield can block, etc.

I seriously think you've never touched the game.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 09:19:59 2013 No.570745

>>570686

Either a ruse, or just a really die hard fan of turn based combat systems with menu based dice rolling combat, thinking it's really deep and strategic when the reality is you just tape down the A button and attack everything until it's dead, with RNG's doing the actual fighting.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 09:23:29 2013 No.570764 >>566871 Remember the first two weeks of /vr/ when everyone was being overtly nice and respective just to differentiate ourselves from /v/? Those times are long gone it seems.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 09:25:29 2013 No.570774 >>570559 Confirmed for never played dark souls

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 09:27:30 2013 No.570784 >>570764 The board has slowed down considerably since than, and pretty much every worthwhile game was discussed to death in the first few weeks. People grow restless as proper discussion dies down and start amusing themselves with shitflinging.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 09:29:00 2013 No.570801 >>570745 I REALLY liked combat of Grandia, even though it tended to shatter the moment you became sanic enough. And Grandia comba system's spiritual successor, Mana khemia, improved upon it greatly.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 09:46:29 2013 No.570862

>>570801

okay I can admit Grandia DOES have strategy to its combat system, due to the fact that you can strategically engage in combat by sneaking up on enemies from behind to start the encounter to gain a pre-emptive strike, and the fact that you can move your party members around the battlefield in combat, allowing for positioning to keep some characters out of harms way and keep your tougher characters in between and such.

Usually when turnbased fags are talking I'm thinking things like Final Fantasy, Lufia, Breath of Fire, Phantasy Star, or worst, Dragon Quest. There's no strategy in their combat systems. There's next to no positioning (back row and front row only), RNG decides who starts first, and for trash you pretty much select attack on all characters each turn unless you have some free special skill.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 09:48:29 2013 No.570874 You guys like FF7?

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 11:01:29 2013 No.571163

>>569834
>>569867
The pre-rendered backgrounds looked amazing but the polygon everything else looked like absolute shit, even when it came out.

The only thing impressive about it was how many people were fooled into thinking it looked good just because it was ultra-low grade 3D.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 11:02:29 2013 No.571168 >>565453 They're not vehemently detested, there'a a luod minority.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 11:57:59 2013 No.571452

>>569912
>Ni no Kuni might fit in there

That game is one of the more recent examples of JRPGs struggling to move forward. Battles feel reminiscent of early PS2 action-rpgs. The plot is ridiculously simplistic to the point where things happen simply because "we need to get from point A to point B". The characters are paper thin, and the dialog is so cringe worthy and full of "The power of friendship will save us!"

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:06:29 2013 No.571490

>>565457

Most of those jRPGs up top are not the games people enjoyed back then. Who the fuck played Little Princess? Atelier Marie? I don't even know what that one in the top left is. The games people liked had something unique about their settings or characters, which made them interesting. The gameplay still kind of sucked, though, and that's a bit problem in today's world where you can have great gameplay, a great setting, and great story. Also....

>Including Dark Souls as a jRPG

Yeah, and Septerra Core is a wRPG, hurrrrrrrr!

wRPG and jRPG are terms used to describe gameplay styles, not the home country of the developers. wRPGs originated and are most prominent in the West, jRPGs originated and are most prominent in Japan, but if a Western developer makes a game that is in the style of a jRPG, it's a fucking jRPG, and vice versa.

If you start breaking it down to where the developers come from, then the terms mean less than nothing.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:09:00 2013 No.571507

>>565527

Too bad they put it on the Wii. I have a copy sitting here, barely played, because I dislike the Wii so much. Everything about it is just terrible. Also have a opy of The Last Story, which was really fun from what I played of it, but I just can't get past the fact that it is on the Wii, and all the downsides that come with that... Just having to manage batteries for the controller alone is a huge turn-off.

I just looked over my PS3 and 60 collection and realized that I have no jRPGs, at all. I have a Japanese turn-based strategy game, Disgaea 4, but no jRPGs. I think I'll pick up Atelier Ayesha tomorrow when I go by Gamestop for my copy of Soul Sacrifice...

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:19:59 2013 No.571543 >>571507 Have you tried running Last Story and Xenoblade Chronicles on the emulator Dolphin? they can be upscaled to 1080p and look significantly better and be played with an Xbox controller on your pc.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:20:59 2013 No.571550 >>571490 wrpg and jrpg are meaningless terms that have no solid foundation in anything except origin, don't ever use them to describe how a game plays.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:28:59 2013 No.571580 >>571550 >wrpg and jrpg are meaningless terms that have no solid foundation in anything except origin, don't ever use them to describe how a game plays. Actually, they have the most solid historic foundation possible. JRPG is a misnomer, though.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:29:29 2013 No.571581 >>566134 Oh my God, he even has the grey MM cartridge. Fucking A'.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:30:29 2013 No.571587

>>571490
>Most of those jRPGs up top are not the games people enjoyed back then.

That image was made in retaliation to an image that put JRPGs at the bottom that weren't the ones that people enjoyed. Don't take it seriously.

>wRPG and jRPG are terms used to describe gameplay styles

Except there is no common gameplay style by which they're defined. Don't assert your assumptions as fact. There's a damn good reason that no publication or website treats them as genres.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:33:59 2013 No.571604 >>571587 You're telling me that most jRPGs don't play in a similar manner to Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest? Because that is the definition of a jRPG. wRPGs are more varied, though.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:34:00 2013 No.571606 >>571587 >There's a damn good reason that no publication or website treats them as genres. I don't see "wRPG" used that often, but "jRPG" sure as hell is used by lots of magazines and websites.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:34:30 2013 No.571605

>>571587
>Except there is no common gameplay style by which they're defined.
There is.

JRPGs are games like Dragon Quest.
WRPGS are games like Ultima.

Regardless of country.

Also JRPGs are Wizardry clones, but this ahs not been established as Japanese until the West stopped making them int he nineties.

Dark Souls is an ARPG. Learn your fucking terminology.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:36:30 2013 No.571615 >>571605 Dragon Quest was influenced by Ultima, just fyi.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:37:29 2013 No.571618 >>571615 Yeah, the first Ultima game. Probably the second most primitive RPG ever made. The Japanese went in a completely different direction with it than the West. Try comparing Ultima VII to Final Fantasy VI.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:38:29 2013 No.571624 >>571615 I know. The overworld. And battles are from Wizardry. These elements together make a classic JRPG. So?

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:42:59 2013 No.571645

>>571606

I know they use the term, but not as a genre.

>>571605
>JRPGs are games like Dragon Quest.

So Xenoblade isn't a JRPG? Resonance of Fate isn't a JRPG? Star Ocean, Tales of, Dark Cloud, Rogue Galaxy, White Knight Chronicles, Valkyrie Profile, and Ys aren't JRPGs?

Then why does everyone and their mother treat them as one? Perhaps your definition is not so clear after all?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:45:59 2013 No.571660 >>571645 >So Xenoblade isn't a JRPG? It's not. The most accurate description of it's gameplay is the "offline MMO". It really plays like one.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:47:59 2013 No.571670 >>571645 >Ys aren't JRPGs Ys are ARPGs. Tales of are 100% JRPGs. Just instead of menus, they have shortcuts. The battles are not particularly different from FF's ATB. Running around is superficial.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:47:59 2013 No.571671

>>571660

So why does everyone treat it as one? Every professional in the industry treats it as one. Are you suggesting that your personal definition is right, even though it isn't the one that everyone uses? Because that's just silly, words are defined by their common use, not by what one guy thinks they mean.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:48:29 2013 No.571679

>>571670
>Tales of are 100% JRPGs. Just instead of menus, they have shortcuts. The battles are not particularly different from FF's ATB.

Okay, so every Action RPG is now a JRPG, because they have shortcuts instead of menus, and the battles are not that different from FF's ATB. We've gone full circle now.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:50:00 2013 No.571695

>>571671
>So why does everyone treat it as one?
Why does everyone call House of the Dead a rail shooter when it's a light-gun shooter? Why does everyone call games with 3D graphics and 2d gameplay 2.5d instead of Streets of Rage etc.?

Because they're ignorant.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:51:00 2013 No.571703 >>571679 Tales of aren't ARPGs, they are JRPGs. Ys is an ARPG. Can you see the difference?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:51:30 2013 No.571702 Today's gamers can't handle being free and having to figure out what to do and where to go. Call me a nostalgic fag, but it's the truth.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:53:59 2013 No.571715 >>571703 Literally the only difference is that Tales has battle screen transitions. >>571695 Publications and professionals in the industry are ignorant of the industry to which they belong? Everyone's wrong and you're right, yeah.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:53:59 2013 No.571716 >>571702 >Today's gamers can't handle being free and having to figure out what to do and where to go. Call me a nostalgic fag, but it's the truth. Dark Souls.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 12:56:59 2013 No.571735 >>571716 Dude, there was a lot of backlash towards Demons Souls and Dark Souls, so much so that Dark Souls II is being dumbed down to be more "player friendly".

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:17:30 2013 No.571872 >>571716 >the game restricts you by using monster levels >corridors >there is nothing in the game but killing dudes >Freedom

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:19:30 2013 No.571892 >>571645 The Dark Cloud are not RPGs of any kind, they're action-adventure games. Valkyrie Profile is an action-RPG, from what I know of it. Ys is an action-RPG. Tales games are jRPGs. I didn't play Star Ocean or Rogue Galaxy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:21:29 2013 No.571902 >>571702 That's why Final Fantasy XIII sold so well, while Skyrim tanked! Oh wait...

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:22:59 2013 No.571906 >>571735 Some of that backlash is deserved. Valley of the Giants or whatever was horse shit. Least fun thing that I've ever done.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:23:59 2013 No.571915 >>571892 Guess what, they're all treated as JRPGs. You don't get to just pick and choose which ones you want to be JRPGs and which ones you don't.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:24:59 2013 No.571919 >>570375 >ive played them so i know what im talking about. Do you even know how childish that sounds?

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:25:59 2013 No.571927

>>571915

Eh, I don't think I've ever seen any professional publication treat Dark Cloud as a jRPG, or any kind of RPG. It's pretty clearly an action-adventure game, similar in many ways to Zelda. Ys is also treated similar to Zelda by most publications and fans.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:30:29 2013 No.571956 >>571906 The entire second half of Dark Souls was shit, but that had more to do with the level designs/enemy layouts than anything. I'm looking at you, Lost Izalith.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:32:29 2013 No.571967 >>571956 It definitely is a front-loaded game.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:33:29 2013 No.571974

cRPGs were a wast, evolving genre of games that started with Ultima and Wizardry and went on to include a wide spectrum of mechanics from Dungeon Master-like crawlers to the isometric Black Isle games, action-oriented hack&slashers like Diablo, wide sandbox-like games and so on.
The down side of this is that a lot of the classics are hard to get into and understand due to their ambitions in gameplay and storytelling. They require a different mindset, that of a 80s/90s d&d obsessed nerd.

The jRPG, starting with Dragon Quest, took direct inspirations from Ultima, but streamlined it to an instantly accessible and much less deep experience, but in turn focused more on individual stories of NPCs and a feeling of adventure. It went on to rely the DQ formula for many years, producing different styles like Final Fantasy but rarely deviating from the base formula.
The double-sided consequence of this is the tradition and familiarity of the genre, making you feel right at home with almost any series but not bothering to think outside of the box and put a spin on old mechanics.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:33:29 2013 No.571978

>>571906

Oh, and I forgot, that part in that fucking cathedral where you have to walk around on the rafters while assholes try to kill you. Pain in the ass, not fun. Also that area not far after where you die if an archer hits you because you get knocked off into oblivion.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:34:29 2013 No.571984 >>571956 I'm fairly certain the later parts of the game got rushed, Izalith and Demon ruins especially. The DLC showed of that their design is still sound though, when they're given time.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:34:29 2013 No.571986 >>571974 It went on to refine*

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:35:29 2013 No.571993 >>571927 Well, video game magazines aren't really documented or archived online, so I can't exactly provide hard evidence to the contrary, but I can tell you that most (if not all) online outlets treat Dark Cloud as an RPG. Same with Ys.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:37:29 2013 No.572007

>>571993
>Well, video game magazines aren't really documented or archived online

It's not like I can just download the entire run of EGM or Nintendo Power on a whim... Oh wait.

>but I can tell you that most (if not all) online outlets treat Dark Cloud as an RPG. Same with Ys.

But you can't give links, because if you did they would be shitty little weeaboo sites that no body reads.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:40:30 2013 No.572028 >>571993 GameFAQs calls them Action RPGs. I'd love to know what is RPGish about them, but whatever, they're still not treated as jRPGs (or in GameFAQs' world: Consle-style RPGs).

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:41:59 2013 No.572035 Dragon Quest stayed pure and beautiful. Until recently... >rip in peace

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:50:30 2013 No.572093 >>572035 I think IX was pretty good, but I'm generally not a fan of the series.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:51:59 2013 No.572102 >>566103 What qualifies as dark? Votoms?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:53:29 2013 No.572110 >>566134 Holy shit an iQue. The controller looks not bad.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:55:29 2013 No.572123 >>566590 >Wii >MMO What are you smoking?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 13:58:59 2013 No.572150 >>566641 What does MMO like systems mean?

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 14:07:30 2013 No.572214

>>565641
Nahhh...they worked because of the generation, period. We didn't have MUH HIGH-SPEED BANDWIDTH and OVER 9000+ cable channels and such for entertainment, so games were designed to have plenty of positive playtime/every dollar ratio.

Granted, the tradeoff was artificial difficulty, pallete-swap bosses, and, in the case of JRPGs', a metric fuckton of random battle encounters and grindtime, but we accepted it. The only people that complained about this stuff were gamemag journalists.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 14:09:00 2013 No.572246

>>572102

>votoms

Sure I guess. I was thinking more of 90s stuff: Gannmu, Akira (though that one might have been 89 now I think of it) Vampire Hunter D, Cowboy Bebop even, Kite/Mezzo Forte, or the films of Yoshiaki Kawajiri.

You know, things about real people trying to deal with problems, rather than reductive and sexist anime archetypes in a grammar school.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 14:49:30 2013 No.572573 >>572123 >Dragon Quest X

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 14:50:30 2013 No.572581 >>572150 It means it's pretty much ATB except you can move around.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 14:55:00 2013 No.572620 >>572573 Quit reminding me

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 15:11:00 2013 No.572703 >>565457 That pic has a terrible selection of 90's jprgs holy shit No Breath of Fire, Final Fantasy, Xenogears, Tales of Destiny, or Grandia? what

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 15:12:00 2013 No.572715

>>565457

What's the one in the second box and the bottom left box?

Anyways pretty sure it's mentioned somewhere but as the technology got better and production values went up companies had to cut something,cause exploration=production=more money.

FF13 would be good if it wasn't corridors after corridors with limitations to 2 characters most of the time.FF13-2 wasn't bad imo cause it got arround someway.

Oh also as Anime became more influential in the west which caused ''CUHRAZEEEY,COOL,2DEEP4U'' characters to make more into rpgs.And Waifu materials as well.

These all concepts can be seen why the true fans like FF7 while they hate AC.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 15:12:31 2013 No.572712 so am i the only one that likes turn based combat

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 15:15:00 2013 No.572741 >>572715 >implying I can't like FFVII and AC at the same time

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 15:18:30 2013 No.572761 >>572712 Nope I massively prefer it in both JRPGs and WRPGs both of which I enjoy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 15:22:31 2013 No.572780 >>572741 You can.I also enjoy it but I don't like what it turned FF7 into. >Implying AC Cloud=That Cloud said ''Let's Mosey'' >Implying they didn't give less screen time to Nanaki both at AC and DoC cutscenes cuz TOO MUCH MONEH. I rest my case.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 15:23:31 2013 No.572787 >>570375 NNK was better than most 90s jrpgs, and tales games have only been getting better with each entry. Atlus games have gotten better as well. SMT2 was a fluke in a sea of mediocrity.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 15:24:00 2013 No.572795

>>571452
So I take it you don't like DQ games? Because Ni No Kuni was just a DQ game with better combat. I play JRPGs for the sense of adventure. I've rarely played a game that made me appreciate a character's development or psyche in a way that holds a candle to actual novels and such

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 15:24:30 2013 No.572790 >>572761 okay good, i'm not alone ;_;

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 16:10:30 2013 No.573104 >>570582 Game was horrible, absolutely would not be on a list of good console JRPGs.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 16:18:00 2013 No.573171 >>572246 >"real people trying to deal with problems" >anime >real people >anime >mfw There is nothing close to real in Akira.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 16:23:30 2013 No.573228 >>572150 It means you click on an enemy and unload all your skills, then wait for cooldown while your character auto-attacks. Occasionally you'll cast a cure spell or something, but that's it. This is exactly how XB plays.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 16:28:00 2013 No.573264

>>573171

The problems the characters in Akira were dealing with (poverty, crime, youth alienation, political corruption, religious/political extremism, scientific indifference) are all very real problems that are still in the world today. Akira is really a political allegory of 1970s Japan, but it also serves as a deconstruction of the corrupt institutions that are at the root of all the social problems it deals with, and brilliantly illustrates how even well-meaning people can be caught up in their machinery.

It's certainly much better than 'attractive anime male a goes to school b and is awkward. Attractive anime female c comes from school d to school b and is tsundere at him' which is how most anime goes these days.

The fact that the characters in Akira are animated doesn't make them any less interesting.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 16:37:30 2013 No.573327 >>573104 Gameplay-wise it was flawed, but it had an amazing soundtrack.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 16:51:30 2013 No.573450

>>570537

Books are written by significantly better writers than any video game story. Because they are comprised solely of text, authors always make an effort to characterize as much as possible. Most video games focus on gameplay, not on characterization, so many characters from older titles look like cookie cutter characters. They might look different and have some different objectives but they all came from the same dough. When you add voice acting, the characters suddenly have tone. You hear their emotions as the writer intended them to be heard. I know a lot of anons here hate voice acting because it's frequently done very poorly, but I still believe it adds a whole new level of characterization to jrpgs.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 17:02:00 2013 No.573503

>>573450

>significantly better writers

That's a ridiculous statement. There are thousands of books that are ridiculously terrible and poorly-written. I would take an RPG like Final Fantasy VII over an awful fantasy series like the Sword of Truth any day. If the writing in an RPG is good (and back in the day it frequently though of course not always was) then there's no reason it needs awful voice acting to break the immersion with a voice from a studio. I like the limited way it's used in games like the PS1 version of Tales of Phantasia, but that's the only way I like it.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 17:03:00 2013 No.573506

>>573450

I'd say videogames are closer to screenplays/movies than they are to books. Hollywood doesn't have much of a problem making money while pushing thought provoking shit now and then. The problem with voice actors, especially with translated games, is that they're trying to force something really fucking Japanese to western audiences. Sure, a really good actor will make it work but you can just tell without doing a lot of work to it. It's like forcing a one-note anime actor into voiceing some Shakespeare. And if you try making it more palletable to western audiences you get the purist blacklash, and guess who the main bulk of the consistent consumers are?

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 17:07:30 2013 No.573520

>>573506

>purist backlash

I'm not that sort of person really, but that's kind of how I felt about the Alpha Plus Dragon Quest localizations, particularly 8. I know what they were trying to do and I even think it worked to a certain extent, I just wish they hadn't done it. Actually, I like it less and less as time goes on and usually play with the (albeit excellent) voice acting turned off.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 17:15:30 2013 No.573559

>>573503

Sorry, I sort of made a false attribution. It's not that book writers are better; there are just so many more of them. Books aren't a 20th century invention either, so I can easily think of more books that should be evaluated as literary masterpieces than I can video games.

>>573506

>trying to force something really fucking Japanese to western audiences

I know what you mean. It's not like we are expert linguists who understand tone and diction in Japanese. Maybe one day, western voice acting for video games will be taken more seriously. It's not just jrpg localizations. Our actors all sound the same. Yuri Lowenthal is probably our worst case offender.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 17:20:30 2013 No.573586 I'm too lazy to read this fucklong thread. Was it all Baaaaaaaaaaw moeshit or did actual conversation and discussion took place?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 17:21:31 2013 No.573591 >>573503 >awful fantasy series like the Sword of Truth Offtopic but whats wrong with SoT? its a story about an angry marine trying to get laid but shit keeps pissing him off along the way so it takes 11 or so books

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 17:25:00 2013 No.573625 >>573591 LEL That's funny enough that I'll pretend it wasn't a serious question

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 17:27:00 2013 No.573637 >>573586 No clue. Looks ugly though. JRPG threads should stick to /v/. People talk about non retro games too much in these threads and the amount of trolling is the same you'd get on /v/ anyway.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 17:29:00 2013 No.573645 >>565457 >JRPGs didn't get worse >implying anything has come close to Thousand Arms

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 17:31:00 2013 No.573658 Well back then they had barely changed for a few years, now they've barely changed for a few decades. I guess thats why a lot of people dislike them.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 17:32:01 2013 No.573668 >>573658 They aren't at all the same as they were back then. How do people think this?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 17:33:01 2013 No.573673 >>573637 /v/ is far worse though. especially considering they're mostly 12.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 17:36:00 2013 No.573704

>>572795
Guy who made that post, here. I actually enjoy Dragon Quest games, but Ni No Kuni felt very much like a pale imitator in comparison to DQ. Personally to me the only thing about NNK that inspired any sense of adventure was the music. Everything else lacked any real substance, which is a shame since the overall game had a lot of potential.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 17:38:30 2013 No.573719 >>573673 But that's exactly the audience that jrpgs are meant for.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 18:00:02 2013 No.573838

>>571604

Not the same guy, but yeah, there's a ton of JRPG's that play nothing like Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy. Maybe in the early 90's most JRPG's played like them but even Zelda-esque (not an RPG itself but an inspiration to the combat style of many early action RPG's) action RPG's were starting to pop out in 1990.

Tell me how Secret of Mana plays like Final Fantasy at all.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 18:11:31 2013 No.573894 >>572150 autoattack, cooldowns on skills, threat tables, even a crafting system.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 18:16:02 2013 No.573929

>>573637

It was kind of a loaded question because it's asking for the comparison of retro games to now. I tried to explain some things about the divergence of the genre splitting fans into several different camps based on playstyle, where in retro games the fanbase was more "unified"

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 18:27:02 2013 No.573979 File: 365 KB, 2380x1140, wrpgjrpg.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >tfw yet another bullshit WRPG vs JRPG definitions war on my /vr/ Here you go, a comprehensive guide for both subgenres and their branches. Now shut up.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 18:36:02 2013 No.574037

>>573979

Some things are necessarily needed for a game to be an RPG. Numerical attributes aren't necessary if the character has advancable character skills (Deus Ex, Elder Scrolls). In earlier TES games they used both numerical attributes AND advancing character skills. Skyrim they dropped attributes and put character advancement as skill and equipment based only (inb4 skyrim not an RPG, the numerical stats were somewhat redundant in earlier games, character skills work just as well as attributes the way they're done, they still separate player skill and character skill, literally)

Stats is one way of establishing player agency, advancable skills are another.

Also where do games like Tales or Star Ocean fit into that?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 18:39:31 2013 No.574045 >>574037 >>573979 Also >Morrowind >turn based combat get the fuck out, you're a retard. TES have always been real time combat, they're action RPG's, maybe hybrid action RPG/FPS's really.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 18:41:32 2013 No.574071 >>574045 >>574037 >>573979 shit the more I read it the more retarded your little picture becomes >each TES game is under a separate genre >they all have the same fundamental gameplay They should all be action RPG or hybrid.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 19:12:01 2013 No.574340

>>565790
What about people who just like experimental games? I like games like the Ogre BATTLE games, the SaGa series, Vagrant Story, Hybrid Heaven, and so on. I like interesting mechanics when it comes to growth, customization, progression, or battles. Fiddling with that can be very rewarding.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 19:18:01 2013 No.574378 >>572035 Dragon Quest was never interesting. If you want a basic JRPG it is always there, but for most people they crave more. There is no wonder why Final Fantasy crushed Dragon Quest in the west.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 19:25:31 2013 No.574415 >>574378 Especially since west is fucking choke-full of generic fantasy RPGs. And yet DQ manages to be somehow more generic than they are.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 19:33:31 2013 No.574467 >>574378 >>574415 Its predictability is it's charm. They've stayed simple but difficult stories of good and evil with turn-based combat forever. Pretty much the only franchise that stayed pure.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 19:41:01 2013 No.574539 File: 3 KB, 240x160, Mother 1+2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>565897 Fuck I love you.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 19:44:31 2013 No.574563 they're just exclusively on handhelds

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 19:53:01 2013 No.574642 Why do people insist on calling JRPG a genre? What makes them different from any RPG? They're just RPGs.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 19:57:31 2013 No.574668

>>574642
It's a subgenre, or even more accurately, a gamemaking scene. Games made by it usually influence each other more than take outside influences, and that leads to the subgenre consisting usually of games that mix-and-match the characteristic elements from this environment.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 20:08:01 2013 No.574729

>>574668

Yeah, but it's understood games are influenced by national culture.

It seems kind off poor to think of "WRPGs" as some monolithic entity. If we have Japanese RPGs, why can't we distinguish between Polish RPGs, American RPGs, Russian RPGs, and so forth? The labels as they stand don't seem particularly satisfactory.

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 20:11:01 2013 No.574751

>>574729

To put it another way, the term is awfully mutable and seems to have little agreement. Earlier posts arguing over whether Dark Cloud is a JRPG, etc. show exactly the issue - at what point do you cross the threshold from JRPG to WRPG?

What about a game like Septerra Core, which is made by a "western" developer but blatantly pulls gameplay mechanics from "Japanese" games of the time (down to the FFVII-esque dieselpunk look)?

Anonymous Mon Apr 29 20:11:31 2013 No.574746

>>565453
The main thing is that in the past, anime was ultra popular, JRPGs had more serious plots and different styles of gameplay. On top of them actually being fully realised games with content, side quests and world maps and such.

These days, anime isn't "hot" anymore, and attracts negative attention if any, the plots of JRPGs are either "been there, done that" type stuff, irrationally retarded shit like FFXIII, or "lol, I love collecting things!" type shit and on top of that, they also standardised everything they possibly sould and most JRPGs are linear as fucking shit and don't even have world maps anymore.

You occasionally get games like Ni no kuni that become somwehat popular, but that's rare now. And Ni no kuni is only popular because it's a fully realised game with actual content and such in it. If that exact game came out in the 90's (with worse graphics) most gamers would have overlooked it, because it would have been generic then. Now, it's like the only complete and fully realised console JRPG that we've seen in like 5 fucking years.

If Square would buckle down and make a decent FF again, then you can bet your ass the genre would come back to life again. But they're too obsessed with graphics, silly weapons, interactive movie style battle systems and incoheerent plots to bother making RPGs anymore. And all the other companies are afraid to try anything Square won't, because they'd lose money.

The problem for me is that I almost exclusively play JRPGs...

I've been playing a lot of DS games these past few years, lol.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 20:56:31 2013 No.575023 >>574340 well there's also the SRPG branch, again, it diverged off, and there are fans that really like SRPG/TRPG.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 20:58:31 2013 No.575029 >>574746 Anime isn't popular anymore?

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 20:59:31 2013 No.575036 >>574729 It's not really a monolithic entity it's just there's a "style" to them all that resonates within the genre, with the exception of the Souls games and perhaps Nier. You play them and instantly know they came from Japan.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 21:27:31 2013 No.575239 >>574751 >at what point do you cross the threshold from JRPG to WRPG? There's a huge ocean that separates them.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 21:30:01 2013 No.575267 File: 61 KB, 498x360, 1367214708150.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>575239

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 29 21:33:01 2013 No.575282 >>575029 Not nearly what it used to be during that whole Dragonball/Pokemon/Gundam surge in the late 90s

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 00:33:01 2013 No.576605 >>570048 >i don't get the normalfags and 'muh moeshit' though. How? Shit looks gay and for neckbeards.

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 01:41:01 2013 No.576954

>>575029
It lost its exotic appeal.
In the 80s and 90s anime was seen as a sort of cooler, edgier alternative to most western entertainment (with the exception of all the great R-rated action movies of the time). Instead of comical wackiness or sanitized violence you had tits and giant robots and gore. To my adolescent brain it was fucking amazing.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 01:51:01 2013 No.576995 >>575029 Nope. The internet destroyed the viability of delivering it through the television format and now that it's prettymuch gone from there it's not nearly as popular.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 02:34:04 2013 No.577206 >>576954 There is stuff that still is really good. Older stuff.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 02:44:31 2013 No.577240 >>576954 >It lost exotic appeal They also started churning out side-mouth garbage in industrial quantities and over saturated their own market.

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 03:16:02 2013 No.577329

jrpgs worked because they were the only games that could satisfy any storyfags. (outside of crpgs, but jrpgs are generally console) Now, any genre can satisfy the storyfag and really, most other genres these days have that same level of storytelling (quite low), so why pick the one with an unsatisfying leveling system, an emphasis on large numbers and a turn-based combat system generally based on doing nothing more intelligent than spamming your highest-damage move/heal?
jrpg's really don't have anything going for them anymore. Same story quality found anywhere, worse 'gameplay' than found pretty much anywhere else and an unholy amount of padding
not that crpg's are anything worth talking about. They suffer the exact same problems. I still can't figure out why crpgs continuously attempted to implement a real-time system based on a turn-based board game while still using the turnbased ruleset. The entire idea is simply absurd.
But I think I know why the gameplay for these two are so consistently shitty. They can't let you lose, not consistently anyways. It defeats the entire structure of their design. Both game genres want you to have a, more or less, smooth ride through the story. To be clear, Wrpgs want you to make a choice and stick to it, and continue. So they can't make the game difficult in any way, and this stops them from really caring. And of course, their audience clearly don't care anyways. So it's always a simple and straightforward system poorly thought out.

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 03:21:31 2013 No.577347

>>577329
>But I think I know why the gameplay for these two are so consistently shitty. They can't let you lose, not consistently anyways. It defeats the entire structure of their design. Both game genres want you to have a, more or less, smooth ride through the story. To be clear, Wrpgs want you to make a choice and stick to it, and continue. So they can't make the game difficult in any way, and this stops them from really caring. And of course, their audience clearly don't care anyways. So it's always a simple and straightforward system poorly thought out.
Uh, maybe modern mass-market CRPGs.
The ones I grew up with and love often had zero qualms about putting you through a wringer.

>>	( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) \|\|D.\|\|.\|\|\/\|(...) Tue Apr 30 03:23:01 2013 No.577357 >>570714 >>570686 He might be thinking of DeS and not DaS You cant jump in DeS

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 03:36:31 2013 No.577401

>>577347
the crpgs I was playing only became difficult due to the shoddy nature of the combat system. Like, it wasn't difficult in any sort of remotely intelligent manner. Just upscaled hitpoints and disables out the ass. Pretty much, the same way jrpg bosses are difficult. Mostly because the ruleset of tabletops allows for the 'imagination' of its players to do whatever the hell they really want, so an upscaled mob as a boss means something a lot different as to how you can go about fighting it. You can't just remove a large portion of the tabletop ruleset design and call it a day. It forces that over-reliance on savescumming, which then of course breaks the idea of any sort of permanence. By the game's own design philosophy, any substantial difficulty should (and generally was) be avoided because actually getting stuck is a huge no-no.
Really, dungeon crawlers and roguelikes take a far better approach to rpg design. They put the emphasis on meaningful choices in gameplay, rather than story-choices. They actually keep a sense of permanence through the perma-death system, and force you to think before any action. (notice how roguelikes deride savescumming while crpgs encourage it, for fights anyway. Notice again how tabletops deride savescumming)
The whole problem with crpgs is that they looked at tabletops in an incredibly shallow way and then shoved that onto the pc, rather than looking at what makes the tabletop appealing and adapting those ideas to work on the new medium.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 03:41:31 2013 No.577421 >>577329 >>577401 Please get a name or trip already so I can filter you, you've been pissing me off with your shit posting since the inception of this board.

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 03:49:31 2013 No.577446

>>577401
>Notice again how tabletops deride savescumming
Tabletops don't need savescumming because the DM can fudge rolls or do other things to save a party - if he so desires.

The rest of your post is really just opinion masquerading as fact.

Also, seriously, learn how to format your posts so that they are at least somewhat fucking readable, please.

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 03:50:31 2013 No.577452

>>577421
it's not my fault the base rpg genres are fundamentally broken and could only be accepted due to a lack of anything for the same goal ('choice' based storytelling/ 50-hour padded to hell and back stories; crpg/jrpg respec) better at the time of origin, and can only continue to be accepted by their aging fanbase's need to justify all the wasted hours they spent on mediocre games
there's a reason people continuously question jrpgs but none of the other major game genres coming out of japan. (ignoring art) And then crpg's are more or less dead, maybe for some sort of reason as well. (why are crpg's the only large genre lacking any substantial indie development? Even jrpgs can find a developer)

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 03:58:31 2013 No.577478

>>577446
>masquerading as fact.
what have I said so far that has even vaguely attempted to try to be anything more than logical speculation?

Are you assuming that someone can't understand what a person was thinking, at least to the point where discussion is possible, by reviewing their works?

Well, it's not a very fruitful outlook.

Almost as intelligent as claiming no assumptions should ever be made.

By the way, your post formatting could use some significant improvement as well.

You don't really need to separate every single sentence like that.

Should I assume that the problem with my formatting was that I didn't separate every sentence?

If so, I don't think your critique is very valid.

Maybe you're just not used to reading paragraphs?

That's not good.

Many things use paragraphs.

Like books, for example!

Even crpgs use paragraphs!

Pretty sure most jrpgs do as well.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 04:00:01 2013 No.577490 >>577478 Okay, you really are retarded. Rock on with your bad self.

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 04:08:01 2013 No.577519

>>577490
I dunno man, I'm just trying to learn from you.

btw

dm fudge rolling generally isn't a well-accepted practice unless it's due to something like an absurdly unlucky streak on a really early character.

Of course, it's group dependant.

But for the most part, people tend to look down on the practice.

Especially because revival is generally an option (of course, you'd be fudge-rolling to keep the steam going and stopping the losses you'd take)

But yeah it's generally accepted that losing is a part of the game

unlike crpgs, of course.

Since you have to pay $60 just for the dm to build the world, losing isn't acceptable.

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 04:08:31 2013 No.577515

>>565694

that's an interesting thought: what would the result be if somebody crazily talented dedicated themselves to making a very very good JRPG today that actually innovated

it's funny how you can actually innovate in JRPG's just by adding strategic difficulty (as opposed to grinding-based difficulty)

funny and sad

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 04:14:01 2013 No.577536 They're detested because 4chan, that's why.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 04:18:02 2013 No.577552 >>577515 jrpgs don't need innovation, they just need to catch up. Jrpgs have been extremely reluctant to adapt to the changing times over the three decades they've existed.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 04:34:01 2013 No.577613 Cute girls doing cute things happened.

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 04:42:01 2013 No.577654

My main issues with a lot of JRPGs today is I don't feel like I am on an adventure. That's why I still enjoy Dragon Quest. The series are simple and straight to the point but you feel like you are on an amazing journey. Another issue I have is around the PS1 era they started to shove a lot of filler into them to stretch the run time to around 40-60 hours which causes the pacing to be all oughta whack. Parasite Eve despite being only like 8 hours long is one of my favorites because it is just straight up plot with very little to no filler time.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 04:46:01 2013 No.577669 >>577357 I don't have a PS3 so I myself never played Demon's Souls. Someday maybe. I really enjoy the nuanced combat of DaS.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 04:48:01 2013 No.577681 >>577552 personally I think JRPG's have caught up, there's a lot of games that try new things constantly. There's just a few franchises that are stuck in their ways.. persona, disgaea, and dragon quest being the main culprits.

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 04:50:02 2013 No.577691

>>577654

when I play DQ games I don't feel on an adventure I feel like I'm on an RNG determining everything for me.

Games that most make me feel like I'm on an adventure? Elder Scrolls. They just drop you in a world with one bit of guidance to continue the main quest, which you can completely ignore.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 05:37:31 2013 No.577873 I still love JRPGs

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 06:30:31 2013 No.578002 >>577613 I think I understand what you're saying, but that's a dumb way to say it.

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 06:56:31 2013 No.578056

>>577681
gimme some because the most change I've seen is a complete deviation where it's not a jrpg at all anymore but people still file it under as such (like ys) or just minor additions like that moronic action-system (why would you make a psuedo-real time mechanic, it's utterly absurd. turn based and real time gameplay is nowhere near that close to each other)

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 06:57:31 2013 No.578060

>>565453
First point :
Because of time.
When the first JRPG came into our country they were new, and awesome...now they're pretty generic, and people get bored really hard.

Second point :
I just did a test with my little cousin (10y old). He enjoyed FFXIII really hard, and I asked him to play FF6. He actually enjoyed it more, because in his words "the story was great and characters were cool".

The fact is, majority of JRPG are bland because they're not innovative, old players wants something new or at least well-written because they already experienced it.

Dark Souls is made by a japanese team but I don't see it as a classic JRPG (it's still the best RPG on actual console generations so far.)

About FF, I gave up everytime I see Nomura faggy design, I just can't stand it anymore. I want badasses like Cid, Auron (even if FFX is worst "main-serie" FF i've ever played imo) as main character.

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 07:03:32 2013 No.578078

>>578060
>Dark Souls is made by a japanese team but I don't see it as a classic JRPG
That's because DaS isn't even remotely a JRPG. It's a 3rd person arpg.
And fuck you if you think jrpg means any rpg coming out of japan. That's damned retarded and makes it an utterly worthless genre name because it latches onto nothing. A western dev can make a jrpg and a japanese dev can make a crpg
No one other than fucking /v/ would have the stupidity to actually think such a specific genre would mean nothing more than the place it was built

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 07:18:31 2013 No.578093

>>578078
Once upon a time wrpg, crpg and jrpg were useful terms when discussing video games, effective for conveying a wealth of information about a game in a succinct manner.
Things have sort of moved on since then,now they serve no purpose in the modern context. Kind of like an appendix, waiting to clog up conversation, pointless bullshit that often revolves around individual perceptions rather than anything concrete.

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 07:45:31 2013 No.578151

>>578056

>complete deviation where it's not a jrpg at all anymore

see that's part of the problem. People's definitions of JRPG. It's always
>Turn based, menu driven combat
>random encounters
>choose actions for all party members

Because people have that rigid definition of what they consider to be a JRPG, they can't change.

Games like Tales and Star Ocean are deviations while still maintaining most of the feel of a JRPG as far as story, characters, exploration, and character progression of JRPG's, but having a more active combat system that further evolves and becomes more refined each installment.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 13:40:31 2013 No.579493 >>578151 >>578093 >>578078 >>578060 >>578060 >>578060 >>578056 >tfw these people actually exist

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 14:02:31 2013 No.579604

>>565453
"Alpha" MCs has disappeared pretty much not including Yuri Lowell.

As many people have stated Japanese taste now lean toward a different money making medium called Moe.

A LOT of old Jrpg Delevopers are gone, bought out, phase out or just not making games anymore.

The Price to make a JRPG is a lot more than what it use to be back then, also there was more to gain when you threw a title out in the 90s.

Overall JRPGs "worked" back then because of the limitations the consoles had, so Developers had to come up with neat ways to make the game well "work"

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 14:18:31 2013 No.579672

I think this sums up a good diagnoses of grind-y JRPG's audiences:

>I read a really good article on this a few years back, can't remember the link now.

>It said basically that skill-based games reward you for your ability, but grinding is reflective only of how much time you've sunk into the game, and no innate quality in the player. They tend to be favoured by nerdier kids with social issues, who have trouble with failure. More well rounded kids, who play sports for example, are used to the reality of failure and develop ways to deal with it. They thereby are more able to enjoy games like online FPSes, where failure is a constant reality. Kids who are "nerdy" tend to take failure much harder than other kinds of kids, and growing up, JRPG structure gives them the kind of constant success satisfaction they crave while still keeping up an illusion that they've earned it.

>tl;dr you ain't earning shit.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 14:23:01 2013 No.579697 >>565576 what the fuck is animu? Are you trying to say anime? Did you mispronounce it? Are you trying to be cool? What the fuck? Go fucking kill yourself you faget of the highest calibut fucking faget.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 14:26:03 2013 No.579709 Is there a list of /vr/-approved old JRPGs? I missed a lot of them growing up since I mainly played platformers.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 14:34:32 2013 No.579750 >>579672 That's complete bullshit. I was a nerdy kid and so were all of my friends and we played some balls hard fucking games when we were kids, didn't get into JRPGs till much later.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 14:46:01 2013 No.579806 >>579697 That escalated quickly.

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 14:47:01 2013 No.579807

JRPG and WRPG are stupid classifications, especially the latter since implying that culturally different regions such as Germany and US are making the exact same kind of games just because they're "western" is kind of stupid. The separation of styles that give off the illusion of there being a "Japanese style" is actually due to the games being made more streamlined and easy to get into for console gamers. So in reality, it's more about computer RPGs vs console RPGs than west vs east. This is even more apparent when you take the modern big-cash (especially US made) "RPGs" into account; most of them are multiplatform, and they almost always indeed actually play like some odd bastard child of actual "WRPGs" and "JRPGs".

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 15:45:32 2013 No.580130 >>565967 Spoony?

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 16:56:33 2013 No.580605 >>580130 lel No but I agree with him about that.

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 17:42:33 2013 No.580871

>>579604

>tfw first saw ToV cover and saw Yuri and thought "is that a girl or a boy?"
>tfw figuring he'd be another brooding emo androgynous "male" protag
>tfw actually playing the game and he's alpha as fuck
>I don't care what hole you crawled out from, BRING IT!

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 19:15:04 2013 No.581483

>>578151
but star ocean isn't a complete deviation from jrpg. It's very clearly takes heavy influence from jrpg design.
There's a reason why I used the example of Ys. It's a series that takes very little influence. Only at the most simplistic and shallow level can Ys be compared to FF, DQ, SO or any other major jrpg franchise. Ys is a massive deviation from jrpg, to call it such is utterly stupid. But SO is only a slight deviation from the what makes a jrpg.
But yeah SO is a good example of change in the jrpg. But all I meant by complete deviation is that you can't go around calling dragon's dogma a crpg and you can't go around calling souls and ys a jrpg. Unless of course, you can't get over the fact that the number/stat based system is similar

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 22:52:32 2013 No.582775
File: 133 KB, 800x632, 1234826988275.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

JRPGs 'worked' back in the day because they could focus on a huge world and expansive story. While most other gameplay mediums couldn't. Think about it. You could have a JRPG that lasted for 30-80 hours, while a Zelda game would last for 10 hours and a platformer for 2-4 hours. And those games would feel much smaller in content.

Now however, other game genres have caught up. We have full free roaming games like Red Dead Redemption or ARPGs like Diablo or crazy story based adventure games like Assassins Creed. And when people compare a JRPG to these multi-billion dollar games, the JRPG no longer seems to have larger production values, better graphics, longer play times and more content. Especially since games such as Final Fantasy XIII, Star Ocean 4, Tales and etc seem to be shrinking in content and playtime.

But of course, not all modern day JRPGs are like this. Dragon Quest, Shin Megami Tensei, Pokemon and others are still going strong. And a host of new JRPGs have come along this gen.

In short, JRPGs just can no longer corner the market on high production values, 40+ hour long games and graphics. The series that will survive are the series that have something else they can focus on besides these things. So...watch out Final Fantasy.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 22:57:02 2013 No.582802 >>572703 That was the point of the pic. It's generally used as a counter when people claim modern JRPGs are moeshit compared to old JRPGs.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 23:07:02 2013 No.582864 >>582775 That's a good theory. One has to wonder why now it's the Western RPGs that have grown into 300+ hour monstrosities to adapt to this phenomenon.

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 23:13:32 2013 No.582906
File: 583 KB, 1363x508, wrpg_jrpg_reality.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>582864

I actually joke, its because the WRPG genre has engulfed the Adventure genre. WRPGs have become point and click adventure games with stats added.

Not all WRPGs, but the most popular ones like Mass Effect and Fallout.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 23:19:32 2013 No.582943 >>582906 Modern WRPGs like ME are actually action games with minimal customization tacked on and maybe some writting with zero interaction to top it off.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 23:21:32 2013 No.582953 >>582906 what i wanna know is why dungeon crawlers are always party based I don't want a fucking party

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 23:26:03 2013 No.582982
File: 25 KB, 640x400, mi1segatalk2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>582943

And a lot of old 'you choose the story' adventure mechanics thrown in. Where you are given 5 different dialogue choices and choose which one, which gives the illusion that you are influencing the story. But in reality, you are just picking one of a handful of pre-set events through dialogue.

Which comes straight out of old Adventure games.

As does a lot of the way some of the modern day WRPGs utilize items. You literally get an item and just run around trying to 'use' it on every NPC and object until it triggers a cutscene.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 23:26:03 2013 No.582983 >>582906 left is not an RPG at all, left is a point and click adventure

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 23:27:02 2013 No.582989 >>582983 ...that's the joke.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 23:37:32 2013 No.583026 >>582906 >JRPG >example is first-person dungeon crawler >a subgenre that was created in, and reached its zenith in, the west yeah, okay

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 23:39:02 2013 No.583035 >>583026 neither games are actually wrpg/jrpg, what is wrong with you the image is about influence on modern wrpg/jrpgs

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 30 23:44:03 2013 No.583067 I personally the market's split between to many systems and that made a relatively niche genre a lot more niche. And shit like the atelier art styles.

Anonymous Tue Apr 30 23:44:03 2013 No.583068

>>583035

>the image is about influence on modern wrpg/jrpgs

This, finally someone gets it.

WRPG - Pointing out that Modern WRPGs play more like Adventure games with stats added.

JRPG - Pointing out that JRPGs hark back to the classic CRPGs of the past like Ultima and Wizardry. Pointing out that JRPGs are pretty much the last bastion of 'classic' RPGs. With such series as Etrian's Odyssey, Dragon Quest and the Japanese produced branch of Wizardry.

Anonymous Wed May 1 01:28:03 2013 No.583602

>>583068
hey wait you're getting shit a bit mixed up there. Etrian odyssey and wizadry aren't jrpgs, they're outright dungeon crawlers (fuck you any game with rpg mechanics made in japan is a jrpg is a stupid way to look at the genre it means absolutely nothing)

>>	Anonymous Wed May 1 04:34:03 2013 No.584337 >>582906 If you wanted to represent popular JRPGs there, then you should have put a snapshot of a cutscene there instead.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 1 04:41:05 2013 No.584359 >>582864 Name a single WRPG made since 1993 that's a 300+ hour monstrosity. You can't - unless you count pointlessly dicking around in Morrowind/Oblivion as "game time" (you can pointlessly dick around in modern JRPGs too then).

>>	Anonymous Wed May 1 04:45:34 2013 No.584368 >>565453 >And why are they so vehemently detested now? Saturated market. Negligible story differences to the casual observer. Anti-Japanese sentiment, conversely, Japan's elitism.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 1 04:48:04 2013 No.584378 >>584368 I detest them for the trivial, brainless gameplay that's often present even in japanese SRPGs.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 1 04:51:35 2013 No.584385 >>584378 Fair enough opinion. I disagree, but I wouldn't try to claim yours to be invalid. Some of them are pretty vapid.

Anonymous Wed May 1 09:54:06 2013 No.585490

>>584359

I usually feel that JRPG's are longer than WRPG's if you just do the main stuff. WRPG's can take like 30-40 hours where JRPG's are a solid 60-80. However I usually end up spending 60-80 on a WRPG and near 100 on JRPG's..

But you're right about TES games, those.. well.. Oblivion is the one I spent the least time on and I still had just shy of 200 hours on it. Morrowind and Skyrim I've spent over 500 hours on each.

Anonymous Wed May 1 19:32:36 2013 No.588528

>>582775
That all depends. My first RPG's were on the Gameboy and two of them were 8~12 hour games. Hell even two of my favorite RPG's (one from the Gameboy and another from the PS1) usually clock in around ten hours or so.

Honestly one of the biggest things that deterred me from older and newer JRPG's are either a bunch of cut scenes or a LOT of text. What I am saying is when the game doesn't let me play and often stops me that is when I start to lose interest. Other such things is when I have felt like I've played the game before and it becomes more of the same.

And honestly, I like experimental mechanics, especially in regards of character growth.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 1 19:37:06 2013 No.588569 >>588528 You seem to be awfully fond of SaGas.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 1 19:39:36 2013 No.588578 File: 158 KB, 429x414, 1339568490103.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>588569 How did you know.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 1 19:41:36 2013 No.588590 >>588578 >gameboy RPG >10 hour game time >experimental mechanics Well, duh. The rest of the series is much better

>>	Anonymous Wed May 1 19:42:36 2013 No.588594 >>588590 Yeah I love the RS remake the most.

Anonymous Wed May 1 19:44:06 2013 No.588615

>>588594
Me too so far, but I'm yet to finish it. Unlimited Saga is pretty tits too, although a lot of people shit on it. It's a heavily flawed masterpiece in a way, I dare say it wasn't experimental enough - a plenty of the cooler ideas seem half-baked and shallow and could use some expansion in my opinion.

Anonymous Wed May 1 19:48:06 2013 No.588638

>>588615
I personally enjoyed it for what it was. I liked all of the field skills to be honest, looking for chests, disarming traps, appraising items within a chest, and hell even town skills with buying items for a higher price to get newer items on the shelves sooner or being able to see a secret selection of items.

Some of those bosses can get pretty intense as well, especially Chaos, god damn.

I'd like to see the series continue since I'd imagine such mechanics would be implemented in future installments (I mean look at proficiencies in RS:MS). Honestly my dream SaGa game would be a mix of RS:MS and SaGa Frontier with different races, field skills, black smithing, a bunch of quests that come and go, and so on. Sad to say I don't think the series will go anywhere ever again.

Anonymous Thu May 2 02:13:07 2013 No.590871

>>570132
I think you have a pretty good point here dude.
JRPGs tend to have wheel of time sized novels worth of dialogue. When you have that much quantity, it's almost impossible to have even 1/3 of that be quality. Passable? Sure, but not excellent. It's just painful to hear people say shit that's the verbal equivalent of tissue paper: useful, but disposable.

I compare it to some Western Games that are absolute classics. Planescape Torment, for example, would probably still be as amazing if you actually heard the dialogue said aloud, and it, too, has massive amounts of dialogue. But there's not a whole lot of generic dialogue in there. Because the game wasn't a generic game. I also think of something like Vampire: Bloodlines. This game has pretty much the best voice acting I've ever heard (for a game), but there's not nearly as much dialogue.

I know I'm kind of comparing apples and oranges here, but my 2 cents is simply that JRPGs tend to have a lot of breadth with little depth, and the rankling experiencing of listening to the dialogue said (for what it is, I'm saying nothing here of the quality of the voice actor which 9 times out of 10 makes it WORSE) in a JRPG highlights where its shortcomings tend to be.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 02:18:07 2013 No.590891 >>579697 what the fuck is calibut? Are you trying to say caliber? Did you mispronounce it? Are you trying to be cool? What the fuck? Go fucking kill yourself you faget of the highest animu fucking faget.

Anonymous Thu May 2 02:21:37 2013 No.590898

>>590871
>When you have that much quantity, it's almost impossible to have even 1/3 of that be quality.
That's completely untrue. The problem is that 0% of it is quality and it's only worsened by the fact that they put so much emphasis on it. If they just knew where they exceled and stuck to that, they'd be far better off. but no, we need to have a half hour of terribly paced romantic dialogue at the start of the game and horrifyingly bad character progression at each new town

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 02:24:37 2013 No.590910 File: 27 KB, 672x442, 1316380510799.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>588638 >ever getting a Saga game again Seriously, though, we need a completed translation of RS 2 and 3. I can't bother to play them in their current state.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 02:33:37 2013 No.590942 >>590910 RS3 is 99% translated, only thing left over in moon are combat messages such as stun, etc.

Anonymous Thu May 2 02:35:37 2013 No.590951

>>590871
Yes, I agree, that's the point I was making. Note I said it's "almost impossible." In other words, it would take a distinct and purposeful focus towards shoring up the dialogue (and probably a lot of removal of unnecessary bits) in order to prevent large quantities of dialogue from having an overall low quality.

The options are either shore up the dialogue itself or trim it down, which is why I gave those two Western examples.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 02:37:37 2013 No.590957 >>590951 Fuck me I was responding to >>590898 not my fucking self shit.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 02:42:08 2013 No.590978 OP please direct your attention to the DS and/or 3DS. Plenty of current JRPGs on those systems.

Anonymous Thu May 2 02:45:08 2013 No.590987

>>590951
well my main point is that it isn't almost impossible, or even unviable. The amount of dialogue doesn't really affect anything. Like hell, you can find certain OVA anime where voice acting remains good and fine for its entirety. LOGH comes to mind (bear in mind, i'm in no way an anime fan but I have watched some and you can still hear 'quality' in a different language)
But JRPGs are almost consistently garbage in both english and japanese. They aren't deteriorating due to the amount of dialogue given, they're simply trash from start to end. If these writers had any idea what they were doing, even small bits of dialogue unrelated to the story would be decent. Even a simple hello would be improved tenfold. But they don't. Just like how in any TES title, every single bit of dialogue is lacking any and all quality. The arrow in the knee meme spawned simply because bethesda writers couldn't even passing dialogue write, let alone relevant dialogue. JRPGs are the exact same. It's not an issue of quality being overlapped by quantity, it's an issue of quality being completely nonexistent.

Basically, my main point is that lessening the dialogue won't improve the dialogue quality, it'll simply hide the lack of quality. (which is clearly something should be done if they're going to remain so adamant about hiring shit writers)

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 02:45:37 2013 No.590984 >>590978 It's true. JRPGs thrive on weaker hardware where there is less pressure to be flashy. That's why handhelds continue to bring in quality JRPGs while the console market for JRPGs is generally stagnant.

Anonymous Thu May 2 02:49:38 2013 No.590994

>>590987
>because bethesda writers couldn't even passing dialogue write
My unintentional example of awful translators translating an awful sentence
because bethesda writers couldn't even do passing dialogue right* (now it's just an awful sentence, but whatever gets the idea across)

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 02:52:07 2013 No.591007 JRPGs were never popular. FF7 era JRPGs were "popular" because FF7 created a short lived JRPG fad giving the illusion that it was popular. Much like anime being "popular" around the early 2000's.

Anonymous Thu May 2 02:58:08 2013 No.591027

>>565669
Glad someone else gets it. Tell me, are you buying this "oh, old school JRPGs had such great characters back then since they couldn't do FMVs and the like."

Cause I don't know about you, but I'm pretty damn sure that the majority of the old school JRPGs I played had very little to no characterization at all.

Anonymous Thu May 2 02:58:37 2013 No.591024

>>590984

>implying it isn't a problem created and nourished by Squenix who made a decision to make pretentious 'experiences' rather than games and that this continues to fuck up JRPGs

This weak hardware argument is ridiculous. Solid gameplay overcomes all hardware considerations. DQ8 is gorgeous and also a fantastic JRPG. Imagine a new Final Fantasy that used modern technology to actually implement Yoshitaka Amano's gorgeous design work but kept a focus on good gameplay instead of ridiculous, overbearing anime trope stories.

Fuck off with this inferior hardware shit. There is something to what you're saying, but the correct conclusion isn't that bad hardware=good RPGs and vice versa. It's that advanced hardware creates pressures to create a more 'cinematic' experience.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 03:02:08 2013 No.591047 >>565932 I seem to remember IV, V, VII, IX, and X being "on the-rails" as well.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 03:05:07 2013 No.591052 >>591047 We've already had this discussion. There was still a world to explore.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 03:27:07 2013 No.591113 File: 19 KB, 251x251, 1349205473092.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] holy shit this thread started 3 days ago?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 03:35:07 2013 No.591139 File: 93 KB, 915x603, 1322542924745.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>588615 http://web.archive.org/web/20050407184006/http://workingdesigns.com/rpg_critic/PlayStation2/unlimited_saga.htm It made me chuckle.

Anonymous Thu May 2 03:38:08 2013 No.591147

>>565453

>What made JRPGs "work" back then?
They were video games.
>And why are they so vehemently detested now?
Because it's cool to hate anything Japan now.
>Did the games cease to move toward the future, or was it the audience that changed?
It's the general consensus to hate anything from Japan now as some sort of pseudo Western nationalism because people are insecure for some reason. Especially on 4chan.

Like seriously it's video games, why all the hate?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 03:41:08 2013 No.591163 File: 275 KB, 640x480, image_6_07-02-2004_65136.8.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Game Arts died. Squaresoft mutated into SquareEnix.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 03:50:08 2013 No.591198 >>591163 >Enix bought Square and renamed itself SQUAREnix then proceeded to half-assed tank itself

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 03:57:38 2013 No.591223 Nothing changed. Most jRPG of the SNES and PS1 are shit. Most jRPG of the modern era are shit. You still can find some nice gems, of course.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 04:00:09 2013 No.591237 >>591147 It's not because it's Japan, it's because JRPGs are all terrible fucking 300 hour movies these days.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 04:03:38 2013 No.591248 >>591237 They were terrible 300 hours books in the past.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 04:04:08 2013 No.591252 >>591248 Reading is good. Plus many of them (not all) had things like interesting stories, believable characters, fascinating worlds to explore, and fun and challenging gameplay.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 04:08:38 2013 No.591257 >>591248 To a speedreader, this is a universe of difference.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 04:13:38 2013 No.591270 >>574746 >The main thing is that in the past, anime was ultra popular, JRPGs had more serious plots and different styles of gameplay. > JRPGs had more serious plots > JRPGs had more serious plots > JRPGs had more serious plots Hahaha.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 04:17:38 2013 No.591280 >>591252 I can't think of 10 old jRPGs with interesting stories. Actually, neither modern ones. I play jRPG mostly because of the gameplay.

Anonymous Thu May 2 04:43:38 2013 No.591346

>>591237

>It's not because it's Japan, it's because JRPGs are all terrible fucking 300 hour movies these days.

Bull fucking shit. They aren't even that long these days so you're obviously pulling shit out of your ass. It's because quite clearly the cool thing to hate on JRPG's because people are fucking insecure.

I don't fucking understand why either. I played Ultima, I played Dungeon Master, I played Champions of Krynn. I also played Breath of Fire, Illusion of Time/Gaia, Final Fantasy and i don't hate either JRPG or WRPG. It's a stupid argument that was brought up by insecure people because they want to be cool to hate on things Japan/asian.

Anonymous Thu May 2 05:02:09 2013 No.591438

>>591346
but people don't hate things coming out of japan. They hate shit coming out of japan. It just happens that you like japan's shit. Which, maybe just coincidentally, is oftentimes their mainstream media ported to western audiences. Because the rule that mainstream video games (or really, anything) are, for the most part, garbage can only be true for western developers.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 05:14:08 2013 No.591487 JRPGs are the same. You are simply not the target audience anymore.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 05:19:08 2013 No.591507 Anyone who support Square now is devil. They rape SaGa series. Do not give them money.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 14:36:10 2013 No.593312 File: 49 KB, 355x422, Star_Control_II_cover.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>570581 >There was a lot of good voice acting in the 90s. Grim Fandango, for example, is still some of the best ever done. Or, for an even older example, this.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 14:40:09 2013 No.593325 >>593312 I liked Star Control II but the voice acting ranged from charmingly bad to downright painful.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 14:54:42 2013 No.593372 >>591487 or maybe jrpgs are the same after two decades. You simply don't care for stale food.

Anonymous Thu May 2 15:13:09 2013 No.593496

>>565453
They didn't evolve. That's the main problem, honestly. Same tired plots about spiky haired kids saving the world. Either the emo, brooding type, or the spunky adventuring type. Along the way, you'll meet the pre-requisite timid priest girl, genki catgirl, big tough older guy, etc.

Anonymous Thu May 2 15:20:09 2013 No.593520

>>565457
>people have saved my OC and put it to use

Neat!

>>572715
>What's the one in the second box and the bottom left box?

All the top have their titles listed except that weird MegaTen spinoff, so I'll assume you mean the bottom even though I'm not sure which you are talking about.

From top left to right
>Resonance of Fate
>Radiant Historia
>Dragon's Dogma
>Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne
>Tactics Ogre: The Knight of Lodis
>Infinite Undiscovery
>Xenoblade
>Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume
>Dark Souls
>Infinite Space

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 15:20:09 2013 No.593524 >>591139 This fucking guy. http://web.archive.org/web/20050311044526/http://www.workingdesigns.com/rpg_critic/genesis/buck_rodgers.htm

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 15:23:39 2013 No.593538 >>571490 >Who the fuck played Little Princess? Atelier Marie? Can't say about Marl Kingdom 2, but Atelier Marie sold VERY well.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 15:48:39 2013 No.593643 OP here. So proud this thread has gone on for so long. Usually my threads barely break 15 T_T

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 16:00:39 2013 No.593690 >>593643 Don't take it as a lesson. The reason it got momentum was because of the shitty aggressive way you introduced it--and we've already got plenty of that bullshit.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 16:03:09 2013 No.593712 >>593690 Isn't making shitty aggressive threads the only way to get triple digit reply counts on 4chan?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 17:17:14 2013 No.593981 >>593712 but are triple digit reply counts something that should be taken as a goal?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 17:18:13 2013 No.593985 >>593643 >T_T I wonder why, you cock guzzling faggot.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 17:31:43 2013 No.594017 >>593372 >>593496 They're completely different. They're terrible now. They used to be good.

Anonymous Thu May 2 17:39:14 2013 No.594060 [DELETED]

In beggining there were pen n paper games. Some focused on combat and numbers and some on role playing.

Than came electronic games. Developers tried to take their tabel top games and make them electronic. Developers quickly learned that real role playing wasn't possible on the computer so they focused on the combat. The games were not role playing games but were still called rpgs because they had their roots in pen n paper.

Wizardry was one of the early successful electronic rpgs. It came to japan and inspired created dragon quest and final fantasy. These 2 games became very popular and many other japanese developers made similiar games.

The japanese quickly forget that they were making wizardry clones. They were not familiar with real role playing games and thought 'an rpg is a type of game that involves rising numbers'

Eventually they added anime art style and people with no knowledge of the genre's history believed this to be an entirely new genre (the jrpg)

Anonymous Thu May 2 17:40:43 2013 No.594065
File: 2 KB, 84x84, images.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

They "worked" because they had much more content then what was typically available at the time. Most of what made them good [sandbox, story, save files, character/player profiles, steady gear/ability/level advancement, currency, unlocking more playable characters (which unfortunately has been adopted by DLC promoters)] has been filtered into other genres.

It also didn't help that they became parodies and fanboy creations. FF 9 was probably jrpg's last gasp before everything totally went to shit and even that game had major issues.

Anonymous Thu May 2 17:42:14 2013 No.594075

>>565453
Casuals weren't there. Gamers who used to have the time to play grew up and don't have the time anymore. This is in conjunction with the saturation of the game market. People don't have the time to spend 80 hours on a game when there's a couple dozen interesting games coming out every year. They've become movie sized bits of entertainment.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 17:42:43 2013 No.594078 I am getting tired of having games that have 100 hours of cutscenes of 2 anime characters talking that are less advanced than some visual novels. At least visual novels have descriptive texts and narration.

Anonymous Thu May 2 17:49:14 2013 No.594123

>>594075
I actually think the length of jrpgs is one of the short comings. Most of them feel very padded.

The difficulty curve suffers from the long length by making it take 30 hours for the game to actually have any depth to combat/customization.

The story suffers because a great deal of the length is boring filler 'oh the bridge is out! we have to go through the mountain path' 'oh look a whacky side story that has no relation to the main plot/characters'

The indivual dungeons suffer because there is less man-power/time to work on each one. Rather than having 20 really well designed dungeons we get 100 mediocre ones

A jrpg will get a bad score in a magazine if it's play time is below 80 hours, even if the game's depth warrants multiple play throughs. Reviewers are quick to praise quantity but rarely talk about the quality and the industry is responding to that.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 17:50:13 2013 No.594135 >>594065 >FF 9 was probably jrpg's last gasp before everything totally went to shit Never played DQ VIII? It was a lovely game

Anonymous Thu May 2 17:52:13 2013 No.594147

>>594123
See, many gamers of the past would have saw that as a time to get attached to the characters and their abilities. To become masters of combat before the next major boss. Nowadays, gamers find it a chore. A bad progression curve is a detriment for any game, any year though.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 18:09:45 2013 No.594252 >>594147 Most players dont need to repeat the same identical random encounter 2-3 dozen times to master it. Most modern jrpgs don't really have much depth to the combat. Older ones were more challenging AND less repetative

Anonymous Thu May 2 20:14:59 2013 No.595057

>>594147
But I don't get attached to character more simply because I've watched them battle more, and due to how shallow jrpg combat tends to be, there's really not that many nuances to be found in hours of striking. I mean, with real-time, there are a number of unintended little things that will alter the fundamental structure of the movement. Real time, button mashing kind of gameplay found in like 3D fighters have a natural complexity in them. But with turn-based, there's a very strict set of things that can affect what occurs, and they're not made to be very complex.
Really, most skills can be mastered within their first casting. Especially because they also tend to fall in very strict, generic categories. Mainly crowd control, damage and healing.

And when the guy said filler, he doesn't mean little talks between characters. He meant detours that feature very little 'new' content. Going from the jungle environment to the mountain environment because the important bridge broke, having no other change than the sprites has no explicit reason to be there. You could have just gone from jungle to the new town and the only real difference is that your game now has a 50 hour playthrough time rather than 60. (I mean, unless you were really trying to force the idea that it's a long journey but even still, there are a number of ways to do this in a 30 minute real-time journey as opposed to hours.)
And this true for pretty much any game. 20+ hours of 'content' clearly has padding.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 20:46:02 2013 No.595235 File: 2.33 MB, 400x225, 1355742016451.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>591198 At least the DQ games are still good right?

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 21:30:32 2013 No.595438 >>595235 >were FTFY

Anonymous Thu May 2 22:16:11 2013 No.595667
File: 117 KB, 448x640, 582349[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>565457
>No Trails in the Sky under '00s JRPGs.
>Not appreciating dat cast
>dat battle system
>dem sidequests
>dat worldbuilding
>dat political intrigue
>dat music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhwsvSOjY9E))
>dat Olivier
>dat Falcom pedigree

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 22:23:41 2013 No.595691 >>567260 >Jpop >bad http://youtu.be/OsJsnrllZ7g

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 22:28:40 2013 No.595719 >>595667 fucking THIS. Trails feels like the PS1 JRPG that the genre should have evolved to during that era. The battle system alone makes the game fucking awesome. Beats the fucking shit out of FFVII's materia system.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 23:45:10 2013 No.596046 >>594078 You'll like Bravely Default then. Written by the guy behind Steins; Gate

>>	Anonymous Thu May 2 23:48:10 2013 No.596053 File: 116 KB, 424x500, EstelleFreezeMOFO.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>579604 >alpha MCs are extinct Do you even Shulk or Estelle?

Anonymous Fri May 3 01:21:10 2013 No.596413
File: 178 KB, 640x960, full-emperors-saga-image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>591507
Why don't you enjoy Emperors SaGa?

Anyways I agree with you, well to a point. If they localized the Final Fantasy Legend II remake I would have given them my money day one. Too bad they don't see a reason for SaGa to be in the west anymore, they don't even have SaGa Frontier on PSN, none-the-less the last actual new one was made about a decade ago.

It is truly a crime against humanity.

Anonymous Fri May 3 01:25:40 2013 No.596427

>>595719
But the materia system was part of character customization, not the meat and bones of the battle system. It still had the standard ATB system that was introduced since Final Fantasy IV. It just depends what the game does with it. I know in some Final Fantasy games that you could exploit elemental weaknesses and it would make things much more of a breeze.

Anonymous Fri May 3 01:37:40 2013 No.596489

They worked because they didn't have 20 hours of FMV boring the shit out of you and horrible character voices talking all the time. You could sit back, read the text without having to wait for them to finish speaking, and cutscenes would be used for story relevant shit instead of having 10 minute dance sequences or whatever the fuck.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 3 12:52:11 2013 No.598636 >>582802 The 80's and 90's moePGs were better. It's like modern attempts at it rely on tired archetypes to force the player into liking the character, rather than actually going through the effort to make the character endearing like they used to.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 3 13:01:11 2013 No.598681 >>593981 This

Anonymous Fri May 3 13:03:41 2013 No.598685

>>567440
The music in the Ar Tonelico series is fantastic, as is the setting. A shame that the combat was boring as balls and the story was bland. I often call it a great setting trapped in a bad game for a reason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTVdo3Dr_hQ

>>	Anonymous Sat May 4 01:54:46 2013 No.603028 >>598685 How'd you feel about the stripping young girls part?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 4 02:39:16 2013 No.603196 >>567398 It's Sabre Marionette J, the most popular and influential anime of the 90s.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 4 02:43:46 2013 No.603209 >>565453 I had not played a JRPG since FF9. Then recently I bought SMT Digital Devil Saga and SMT Nocturne. Loving the hell out of them.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 4 02:47:16 2013 No.603216 >>598685 Fuck I love the music from ar tonelico http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAB54Kb8dSk

Anonymous Sat May 4 03:09:33 2013 No.603270

>>590987
This leads me to wonder how much "bad voice acting" is really just otherwise decent actors struggling with a terrible script.

I mean sure, there's always blatant examples of VAs just being lazy hacks, but I've played more than a few games where it really seems like they're being held back by their lines.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 4 03:42:46 2013 No.603363 >>603270 I'd assume that if they're going to hire such god awful writers, they'd treat the VA role similarly. of course, there might be a significant pay roll versus quality difference for writers vs va, so I don't really know

>>	Anonymous Sat May 4 03:47:46 2013 No.603384 >>582906 What game is that on the right?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 4 03:57:46 2013 No.603430 File: 49 KB, 620x460, DQIV - Working in Shop-620x.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>565790 >>565963 When I first heard about Recettear, the first thing I though of was Taloons chapter in Dragon Warrior 4 where you get to run the item shop.

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/vr/ - Retro Games