/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.5650569]

Gimme some /vr/ production/development secrets

picrel: a model for DOOM's shotgun was a kids' toy called Tootsietoy Dakota

[Anonymous No.5650616]

>>5650569
Duke 3Ds elevators are actually teleporters due to the lack of room over room technology at the time
And the eye switch in Doom is reused as part of the cacodemons face

[Anonymous No.5650983]

Some of the cobblestone roads in Baldur's Gate were actually digitized coffee beans.

[Anonymous No.5650991]

>>5650616
the cacodemon is a straight up trace of the astral dreadnought from dungeons and dragons

[Anonymous No.5651001]

>>5650991
Sorry, I had it backwards

[Anonymous No.5651004]

>>5650991
It's totally styled after it, though almost certainly drawn by hand. They did reuse his face and eye graphic for the eye switch, however.

[Anonymous No.5651157]

>>5650569
There's one of those guns at my grandparents place...I always liked playing with it as a kid, who knew it was a Doom prop?

[Anonymous No.5651167]

[Anonymous No.5651338]

>>5650616
The water is the same thing. You can't do actual water in the build engine, so it's just a teleporter to another area of the map with the water section.

[Anonymous No.5651359]

>>5650616
>>5651338
Is there ANYTHING in Duke3D that isnt a teleporter?!

[Anonymous No.5651418]

>>5650616
How does the map work? If you teleport all over the place how does it keep in place map wise?

[Anonymous No.5651427]

>>5650616
>>5651359
>>5651418
You can do realistic elevators in Duke3D but it's really fucking hard, so people just use teleportation. You can definitely do room over room (since sectors are basically pockets of space in a fully 3D world), but be prepared for visual glitches galore if you don't set it up properly.

[Anonymous No.5651457]

>>5651418
Here's a very crude drawing.
tl;dr To make a map, you don't necessarily need to have every room connected by a corridor. A rather old trick, used mainly in RPGs, was to draw small side rooms that were inaccessible except through warps (doors contain warps, for example). That's why, if you turn on a code for walking through walls, you can see those side rooms from a distance, and even enter them without the warp.

A rather easy to follow example from an RPG: the first city in Chrono Trigger has the "normal" city map, and when you enter a house, you're warped to an out-of-bounds side room.

[Anonymous No.5651459]

>>5650569
The plasma rifle was also a kids toy, turned BACKWARDS. clever

[Anonymous No.5651463]

>>5651459

[Anonymous No.5651505]

>>5651459
>>5651463

Lol, nice.

[Anonymous No.5651832]

>>5651459
>>5651463
Shit like this just reminds me how inventive movies during the 80s were with their props and stuff.

[Anonymous No.5652064]

>>5651832
Original Doom was a lot like oldschool B-movie making.
It's fitting because a big inspiration of theirs was the Evil Dead movies.

>hexagon steel tiles are actually a pair of snakeskin boots
>chainsaw belonged to Tom Hall's GF at the time
>pistol is a squirt gun modeled after an M9 pistol, spraypainted black
>some figures (Doomguy, Zombies, Baron, Cyber) were made as clay sculpts on poseable artist dolls, effectively claymation, this looked fairly good, but those dolls aren't very good at posing, and the clay kept breaking, requiring repairs and fixes, so this was time consuming and inefficient
>thus a specialist, Gregor Punchatz, was hired to make painted latex figures with poseable steel skeletons (Revenant, Spidermind, Mancubus, Arch-Vile, and a few unused ones), making for far more reliable and consistent models (his father, Don Ivan Punchatz, was hired to paint the cover art)
>the Pinkie Demon was painted over a Jurassic Park dinosaur toy, using the legs as reference
>Kevin Cloud's hairy arms wasn't just Doomguy's arms, but they were also used as a wall texture
>he also scrubbed his knee on his way to work one morning, they scanned that in and used it as a texture too
>the toy raygun which was used to make the BFG9000 (turned sideways and mirrored), was covered in details and greebling, these details were used heavily to make a lot of the tech textures
>random computer parts (circuitboards and stuff) which they had lying around were occasionally scanned and made into textures
A lot of sprites and textures were also illustrated by hand (either pencil on paper, or drawn digitally), and a lot was cut and pasted together, or recycled and 'kitbashed'. Some came from resource libraries too.

[Anonymous No.5652102]

The shotgun in Duke Nukem 3D was an actual Winchester 1300 'Defender' shotgun.
George Broussard bought it secondhand from the Texas Department Of Corrections. After some initial graphics made with it, it was decided it didn't look impressive enough, so he bought a Tac-Star vertical pump-grip and heat-shield to put on it, to make it look more interesting and distinct, and this is what was used for the game (with Duke's radiation sign emblem drawn onto it).
He still has this gun, cheap Tac-Star parts and all.

Rise Of The Triad had a number of the devs get in costume to be digitized as enemies, Tom Hall, who lead the development of the project, got into costume and makeup as El Oscuro, the final boss, Joe Siegler played Sebastian Krist, riding in a weaponized chair, using a pair of staplers as steering sticks (almost stapling his hands once). Tom and Joe also voiced their characters.
They also hired Gregor Punchatz to make a steel model of SPRAY, the missile spamming robot boss, as well as the gun turrets.
Lee Jackson composed most of the music (with Bobby Prince, who did Wolfenstein and Doom's music, providing a few tracks), and he would also get into costume and play one of the monk enemies.

[Anonymous No.5652386]

>>5650569
The sound used for a Former Human dying was a recording of a Camel

[Anonymous No.5652391]

>>5650616
There is a lot of misconception about Duke, Build, teleporters, and portals; so unless you're a misguided lamb yourself, you should be careful and be more precise in your claims.

[Anonymous No.5652554]

>>5652386
Lol I remember watching random educational animal videos in school and hearing that sound

[Anonymous No.5652584]

>>5652064
Damn, Anon... I had one of those toy guns in your pic; It was loud AF. I had almost forgotten that thing. Don't remember how I got it back then, or what happened to it, but I definitely had one of those.

[Anonymous No.5652653]

[Anonymous No.5652654]

[Anonymous No.5652658]

[Anonymous No.5652660]

[Anonymous No.5652661]

[Anonymous No.5652663]

[Anonymous No.5652664]

>>5652654
romero is such a nerd

[Anonymous No.5652675]

>>5652661

These guys were like the Metallica of game development.

[Anonymous No.5652701]

>>5652653
pure soul

[Anonymous No.5652826]

[Anonymous No.5652863]

[Anonymous No.5652878]

PVMs were never used in game development mind you

[Anonymous No.5652882]

>>5652863
>Romero already had two kids by the time this pic was taken
How did he do it?

[Anonymous No.5652961]

>>5652882
It's called "sex", anon. You should try it.

[Anonymous No.5652969]

>>5651418
Silent instant teleporters combined with having two exact copies of the same elevator room, when you step into the first elevator room they just scroll the walls vertically so it looks like it's moving then they teleport you silently to the elevator room at the other end

[Anonymous No.5652971]

>>5652654
>>5652863
what the fuck I didn't know Romero was crosseyed lel

[Anonymous No.5653016]

>>5652969
>they just scroll the walls vertically

That's not how it works

[Anonymous No.5653134]

Did you know Shigeru Miyamoto used to make video games? It's true!

[Anonymous No.5653176]

>>5652878
They weren't?

[Anonymous No.5653228]

[Anonymous No.5653294]

>>5650616
Depends. It actually is possible to have rooms over rooms in Build, the caveat being that they cannot ever be seen at the same time.

[Anonymous No.5653303]

>>5652653
I think almost all of Blood's enemies originated as models. Really sick models too.

To keep on topic with OP, the cultists were based on power ranger action figures.

[Anonymous No.5653310]

>>5653134
Did you know that Nintendo owns the rights to two Mario themed pornos called Super Hornio Bros?

[Anonymous No.5653376]

>>5652675
entitled white males, yeah seems about white

[Anonymous No.5653387]

>>5650569
A lot of weapons from Doom came from toys, the team admitted they had to go to a nearby Toys 'r' Us just to get some ideas for weapons

[Anonymous No.5653391]

Nintendo never apologized to Argonaut for stealing their properties. Nintendo wouldn't be where it is today if it wasn't for western software houses and this is true not only indirectly but even directly.

[Anonymous No.5653447]

>>5653391
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDvMuGz-PWY

[Anonymous No.5654425]

>>5652878
i love this photo

[Anonymous No.5654463]

>>5653391
Croc is nothing like Mario 64 you delusional retard.

[Anonymous No.5654513]

>>5654463
How can someone be so dumb?

[Anonymous No.5654673]

>>5652878
Wtf his mouth

[Anonymous No.5654757]

>>5651459
I have this. Literally just this part. My grandma bought it at a garage sale or something. I noticed the similarity with the Plasma gun. Pretty awesome to find out it was actually used in the design.

[Anonymous No.5655345]

>>5652584
Here's some more pics of the thing.

[Anonymous No.5655349]

>>5655345
There's a couple of different versions of the 'Roargun', so the ones in some of these pictures aren't necessarily the 100% same model.

[Anonymous No.5655350]

Example of one of the wall textures made from the raygun's greebling.

[Anonymous No.5655352]

[Anonymous No.5655353]

[Anonymous No.5655361]

Blood feels like a joke now on Lightly Broiled. I'm still playing my first time but Episode 1 was hard, Episode 2 was ok, but Episode 3 and 4 are just really, really easy now. To the point I've stopped caring about saving ammo and am just running through the levels of Episode 4 without laying many traps at all.

Why is Episode 1 of Blood the absolute hardest level in the game?

[Anonymous No.5655363]

>>5651338
>You can't do actual water in the build engine, so it's just a teleporter to another area of the map with the water section.

>Carmack was dismissive and once said that the Build engine was "held together with bubble gum"

[Anonymous No.5655427]

>>5652064
>>Kevin Cloud's hairy arms wasn't just Doomguy's arms, but they were also used as a wall texture
>>he also scrubbed his knee on his way to work one morning, they scanned that in and used it as a texture too

>Kevin Cloud's hairy arms wasn't just Doomguy's arms, but they were also used as a wall texture
>he also scrubbed his knee on his way to work one morning, they scanned that in and used it as a texture too

[Anonymous No.5655483]

>>5655363
>held together with gum
And it totally is, but it uses trickery so well, and the presentation in games like Duke Nukem 3D is so fucking good, and the game is so fun to play, it excuses the jankiness.

[Anonymous No.5655486]

>>5655427
Here's the knee. I'll go dig up his hairy arms as well.

[Anonymous No.5655490]

>>5655486

[Anonymous No.5655491]

>>5655490

[Anonymous No.5655534]

>>5655490
>>5655486
this is great

[Anonymous No.5655631]

Unused Arch-Vile pose.

[Anonymous No.5655634]

Unused death frames, seemingly there was the idea that you could get cut in half at some point.

[Anonymous No.5655640]

Unused spent casings and shells, the idea was probably that you'd see these flying after each shot, like in the later Duke Nukem 3D.
For whatever reason, they weren't added, maybe they took too much memory, you can find these sprites in one of the released Alpha builds, but they aren't actually used in them.

[Anonymous No.5655643]

The Jurassic Park dinosaur toy used as the model for Pinkie's legs.
They painted over them, then painted the rest of him, reusing a bit of the Baron of hell's back/nape on him as well.

[Anonymous No.5655646]

Pinkie's gaping mouth. They were probably looking at how much they wanted his jaws to open.

[Anonymous No.5655650]

Original Doomguy clay model, also used to make the zombies (and possibly, the imps might have been painted over those frames partially).
As you see, there's some damage, likely this is original damage all the way back from 1993, as previously described, these were kind of rigid and delicate, hence why Gregor Punchatz was hired.

[Anonymous No.5655654]

Baron Of Clay.
As you can see, his face isn't very detailed, but that's fine, in fact since he was gonna be scaled down, this was important, to not make him look too distorted.

[Anonymous No.5655656]

>>5655654
The Cyberdemon model, he was the same size as the others, but obviously left at a larger scale to be a big monster.

Also, if you look closely at some of the Baron Of Hell's final sprites, you can see that his hooves warp/change a bit on a few of them, this was damage they repaired.

[Anonymous No.5655884]

>>5652653
Every picture I've seen of indev Blood stuff looks like it was taken in a serial killers basement.

[Anonymous No.5655890]

>>5655884
...(and that's a good thing)

[Anonymous No.5655901]

>>5653134
wow he looks unbelievably young in those pictures. i also didn't know he smoked. i also see a mother calendar which is very cool, i had no idea he was so comfy with the company products. i knew he was all 'mr mario' and shit but i didnt know he was like.. in it yknow? its cool to see old school setups where everything isn't literally just a computer. i can imagine those books up there have to do with programming and other shit. i see a vcr set too. cool guy. met him once at a strip club, yea good times.

[Anonymous No.5655915]

>doom cucks cant contain themselves to their cuckshed general

>only general allowed on /vr/

[Anonymous No.5655974]

>>5655915
Cry about it, you limpdicked bitch.

[Anonymous No.5656027]

>>5655974
you sound mad

ez


also not video game related

[Anonymous No.5656070]

>>5651359
No. Duke3d is actually a teleporter teleporting teleporters.
Even the weapons don't operate like weapons with projectiles or hitscan, rather the enemies and Duke are teleported next to one another, a calculation is teleported, then the projectiles are teleported between the opposing vectors, then they are teleported back and animated in real time at 25fps, or on many computers at the time 12fps.

[Anonymous No.5656076]

>>5656027

[Anonymous No.5656145]

>>5651157
time to sell it for 500 dollars to some hipster NEET fren

[Anonymous No.5656154]

>>5652102
i wanna see a new duke nukem with a Shockwave

[Anonymous No.5656360]

>>5652660

[Anonymous No.5656379]

>>5655486
>scabby on my knee
>scabby on my knee
>scabby on my knee

[Anonymous No.5656416]

>>5656360

Kek.

[Anonymous No.5656435]

>>5651359
I bet the teleporter themselves are not.

[Anonymous No.5656440]

This video shows some of the production tips used in Mortal Kombat 3

Kano's terminator style face is just a cut out plastic mask piece, Jax's arms are painted on etc

https://youtu.be/rzZsQQIRJIA

[Anonymous No.5656453]

>>5656440
I love videos like this.

[Anonymous No.5656783]

>>5656154
I prefer his classic shotgun, because it's not quite anything that's in vogue right now. Shotguns without stocks are harder to shoot, and have a certain look to them, they're suitable to Duke's machismo.

[Anonymous No.5656810]

>>5656154
The Shockwave is a fucking joke.

[Anonymous No.5656905]

>>5656810
A 20-Gauge one isn't worthless with some practice, and maybe a laser, but you're right in that there's far more practical shotguns out there.

[Anonymous No.5657776]

>>5651167
Hehe megaman blue?

[Anonymous No.5657796]

>>5655363
>and it's all out of gum

[Anonymous No.5658046]

these are always my favorite threads

are there good websites to read more about shit like this? cutting room floor?

[Anonymous No.5658047]

>>5658046
unseen64
hidden palace
lost levels

[Anonymous No.5658063]

There's one I know of.
DOS version of Wing Commander.
When you quit the game it says: THANK YOU FOR PLAYING WING COMMANDER!
It was a memory error that they HEX-edited just hours before the game went in production.

[Anonymous No.5658073]

>>5652969
No, it doesn't scroll the walls, the elevator is still an actual elevator, it silently teleports you from one elevator to the other to make the transition.

[Anonymous No.5658081]

>>5656440
This stuff is great, and it shows that you can actually take a lot of shortcuts on the physical object/actor when digitizing and scaling them down.
Can't be just any shortcut, gotta know which, but they're there and expedient.

Anyone know of any more videos or photos documenting the digitization of props and actors?

[Anonymous No.5658085]

>>5652971
He has a bit of a lazy eye, more noticeable in some photos than others (might depend on the angle he looks at).
In some it looks really apparent, in others it looks normal.

[Anonymous No.5658467]

>>5652882
He's a Mexican, obviously.

[Anonymous No.5658491]

>>5650569
I swear when I was a kid I saw plastic tip on Doom shotgun in-game, like on photo.

Am I dreaming up things or maybe there was some kind of version where they put unfinished sprites?

[Anonymous No.5658541]

>>5658491
there were different more obviously toy sprites in beta builds. check em out on yt there's a few nice videos on em

[Anonymous No.5658562]

>>5655363
Yeah, save for the fact that Carmack respected the fuck out of Ken and asked him to join id in a couple occasions.

[Anonymous No.5658574]

>>5650616
The way Build engine was described to me gave me impression that every door is a teleporter and rooms exist independently from one another, just connected with portals.

I take it room relation position does in fact matter?

[Anonymous No.5658583]

>>5651459
>>5651463
So the plasma rifle is a reversed plastic toy MG?

[Anonymous No.5658769]

>>5652882
He was Pump'n and Dump'n.

[Anonymous No.5658772]

>>5652654
how can Carmack look like an autistic nerd and a Chad at the same time? He truly is a god of his own.

[Anonymous No.5658778]

>>5658772
because he's in his natural habitat, not high school

[Anonymous No.5658783]

>>5658778
I'm willing to bet he did just fine in HighSchool.

[Anonymous No.5659123]

>>5658574
>every door is a teleporter
no
>rooms exist independently from one another
kinda
>just connected with portals
sorta
>I take it room relation position does in fact matter?
It kinda does, but does it really? Build is a 3D space, with xs ys and zs, so if you want to connect "rooms" you have to do it by directly connecting them in that 3D space (glitches notwithstanding). Unless you're playing SW and Blood, in which case you can devise smoke and mirrors.

[Anonymous No.5659127]

>>5655363
bet he got a bit annoyed when D3D outsold Quake and Quake 2 put together, and the Unreal Engine was being licensed left and right instead of id tech.

[Anonymous No.5659131]

>>5658783
>>5658772

He did a year in juvy for stealing an Apple II lol

[Anonymous No.5659239]

>>5659127
That has little to do with engine quality. Just q1 and 2 was too ahead of time for 1997. Q1 required pentium (barely worked on 486 in 320x200), when duke run fine on 486dx and even run somehow on 486sx. Everybody knew that Build was outdated even before duke release. But for majority of people in 96-98 it was competing with doom/heretic not with quake. And duke blowed out of the water anything else that also ran on 486.

[Anonymous No.5659247]

>>5659239
"Blew"

[Anonymous No.5659270]

>>5658772
Why is he so smug??

[Anonymous No.5659539]

>>5659127
There's another universe out there, where Romero isn't fired, and id software follows his vision of being more of a publisher and focusing more on licensing the engine out.

Carmack didn't like dealing with other developers trying to work with his engine, he just wanted to move on to the next iteration.

[Anonymous No.5659597]

>>5657796
Underrated

[Anonymous No.5659676]

>>5652675
How dare you call them faggots

[Anonymous No.5659681]

>>5652675
>These guys were like the Metallica of game development.
what by this he mean

[Anonymous No.5659792]

>>5650569
Doomguy making a toy gun into a functional gun is somehow very fitting for the son of Commander Keen.

[Anonymous No.5659836]

>>5659792
What if all of the demons are pretending to be killed and Doomguy's this severely autistic manchild with toy guns and his mission's one big Make A Wish thing?

[Anonymous No.5659870]

>>5654673
he was moving when the photo was taken

[Anonymous No.5659879]

>>5659836
I think they would have just killed him by now.

[Anonymous No.5660391]

>>5658574
There is a lot of misconception about how Build works.

Every wall with a sector behind is a portal. That's just how the engine inherently works, it does not mean that mappers manually place "portal effects" and "teleporters".

As a result, the engine allows to have as many sectors as you want on the same X/Y and even Z coordinates, as long as don't see two overlapping sectors at the same time.
That's how you can several floors on top of one another, see for instance the projection room in Duke's E1L1 Hollywood Holocaust and the corridor below it; or the entirety of E3L8 Hotel Hell.
This is called Sector over Sector or SoS.
Technicalities are explained here:
http://fabiensanglard.net/duke3d/build_engine_internals.php

Then yes, there are actual teleporters. Underwater but also some of the elevators in Duke. Not every elevator is a teleporter, far from it however.

As time went on devs came up with hacks which would allow to see 2 overlapping rooms at the same time. This is called Room over Room or RoR and you can find it in Shadow Warrior, Blood or Redneck Rampage games. This time it is coder hacked and mapper place "portals", which are like looking through a floor/ceiling mirror except instead of mirroring it shows another room and acts as a teleporter at the same time.

Finally, all of these things can be, and often are, combined together. In other words you can have interconnected SoS rooms which are also connected by teleporting elevators and/or RoR.

[Anonymous No.5660510]

>>5658583
Yeah, based on an M60, but with various creative liberties.
The toys' interpretation of the M60's ventilated heat shield makes up the plasmarifle's distinct muzzle (also the BFG9000's).

It's almost fitting, given the plasma rifle being so much more powerful and rapid than your base chaingun.

[Anonymous No.5660523]

>>5658783
Uh, sorta, sorta not.
He felt stifled and held back in school, he felt trapped, and completely bored out of his skull, so he'd do various things like beat up school bullies, and downloading bomb recipes via the school computers so he could make explosives and then go blow up old cinderblocks for fun and shit.
As said, he also spent a year in juvie for trying to steal a computer from his school.

[Anonymous No.5660525]

>>5658783
...and that's why you don't bet on things you know nothing about.

[Anonymous No.5660529]

>>5659792
That's just propmaking, in the reality of the game, the gun is real.
Bruce Willis used blanks in Die Hard (because actually shooting your actors with bullets presents massive logistical problems to film production) but in the setting of the movie, John McClane was in real live firefights.

[Anonymous No.5660531]

>>5660525
Always bet on dubs

[Anonymous No.5660598]

>>5655363
Anything made with Build is still far better than his grey tech demo where the single memorable enemy is the shambler.

[Anonymous No.5660613]

>>5660598

[Anonymous No.5660638]

>>5660598
Imagine not enjoying Quake. Sad!

[Anonymous No.5661165]

>>5660638
Quake is definitevely enjoyable, but it is also overly dark for little reason. They overplayed that "serious 3d game with serious soundtrack". For example picrelated room looks much better with brightness turned up.

[Anonymous No.5661167]

>>5661165
>overly dark for little reason.
wrong>>5661165
>overplayed that "serious 3d game with serious soundtrack". wrong>>5661165
>picrelated room looks much better with brightness turned up.
wrong

[Anonymous No.5661189]

>>5661167
When I make this room overbright - you can actually see that walls texture is blue-violet, not the 50th shade of dark-brown. Overall textures in q1 are really diverse, but all of them are toned done to the darky-something.

[Anonymous No.5661220]

>>5661167
Look what they done with colors in console versions (where publishers won't allow dark artistic approach to the usage of grey and brown)

[Anonymous No.5661225]

>>5661220

[Anonymous No.5661228]

>>5661225

[Anonymous No.5661252]

>>5661165
Only a few of the levels were actually really dark, like Palace Of Hate, and that was part of the difficulty of it.

[Anonymous No.5662345]

>>5661228
Stroggos is supposed to be a dying world, not a undead-cyborg rave planet

[Princess Sevenleaf !IT2uZpX.Ic No.5662474]

>>5659270
>>5659131
He's not half bad looking either, I bet he got tons of nerd-pussy in college.

[Anonymous No.5662552]

Console versions of Quake look MUCH nicer, but unfortunately Saturn is a slideshow and N64 doesn't have the soundtrack.

Quake 2 also looks nicer on the PSX but its still boring and decent looking rather than boring and ugly.

[Anonymous No.5662890]

>>5658772
because he is both
hes on his own caliber of nerd

[Anonymous No.5663121]

>>5662474
Did he even go to college?

[Anonymous No.5663232]

>>5663121
Does Carmack even look like he needs to go to college

[Anonymous No.5663293]

>>5663232
Carmack felt school was holding him back, I imagine college wasn't of a lot of use to him either.

[Anonymous No.5663349]

>>5653310
They bought the rights so they could bury their existence and ensure they'd never be released again.

[Anonymous No.5663358]

>>5661220
That version ran on a different engine that supported coloured lighting.
It's really obvious in this one (>>5661225)

[Anonymous No.5663398]

>>5652654
>>5658772
lad was lifting and doing martial arts at the time

you can see it from his posture

[Anonymous No.5663404]

>>5652826
related

[Anonymous No.5663478]

>>5652064
>>5651459
>>5650569
But why? Couldn't they have hired a fucking artist? It's not like artists didn't fucking exist in the 90s or anything. This isn't "inventive", it's silly.

[Anonymous No.5663546]

>>5663478
They had real artists; Adrian Carmack, Kevin Cloud, Gregor Punchatz.

It's quick and easy, and makes sure graphics are *very consistent*, as opposed to drawing everything by hand from scratch, where that takes more effort, and a lot more time.
Compare the Cyberdemon to the Imp, the Cyberdemon looks very detailed and very consistent, the light reflecting of him looks very realistic (because it's real light), then the Imp, which looks almost a bit plain with his shading and coloring, and has numerous consistency problems with his head at angles, with his gib death animation being crudely cobbled together from the Zombie's, and his regular death animation being partially traced from an unused Doomguy death animation.
The Imp was painted by hand in Deluxe Paint by Kevin Cloud, while the Cyberdemon was a real life posable clay sculpture by Adrian Carmack, digitized and post processed.

Finally, the development was by just a group of guys, and was inherently experimental, they were almost certainly inspired in this regard by actual B-movies and movie making, two of the big influences were Evil Dead 2: Dead By Dawn, and Aliens.
Real life prop-making makes for good horror movie visuals.

>This isn't "inventive", it's silly.
How is it not inventive? The hexagon texture looks *exactly* like a steel tile floor, most people wouldn't have fucking guessed it's actually snakeskin.

If they wanted all of this shit drawn by hand, they would need one good, expensive artist, to work for a very long time (Doom was made in about one year), or many expensive artists, which likely wouldn't end up having a consistent style anyway.
Optionally, one could prerender sprites in 3D, but given technology at the time and lack of experience, this wouldn't have looked even remotely as good. Duke Nukem 3D did monsters pre-rendered, but that was 3 or 4 years later, and by an artist who had a lot of experience doing just that.

[Anonymous No.5663714]

>>5663121
He dropped out early on.

[Anonymous No.5663769]

>>5663404
I worked on a few of those social games titles like Sims Social and Pet Society.

Good riddance is all I can say, but from the inside, its creators all pulled out because that's when their stocks could be sold.

[Anonymous No.5664157]

>>5655350
>greebling
Huh, I learned a new word today.

[Anonymous No.5664631]

>>5652878
Funny you say that because there's no games on that photo. None. Just some CGI footage, images and graphics.

[Anonymous No.5664641]

[Anonymous No.5664665]

City 17 in Half-Life 2 used to make sense geographically as Valve based the city on a map they made in early 2003. However, the city geometry slowly started to make less sense

[Anonymous No.5664702]

>>5664665
not retro fagget

[Anonymous No.5665571]

>>5663478
Philistine.

[Anonymous No.5666192]

>>5664157
It's a word you often see on /toy/ & /m/. They hate robots with greebles, actually.

[Anonymous No.5666234]

>>5659270
>20 years old
>college dropout
>year in juvy
>self made millionaire that drives a brand new TR-512 after coding a game every pc in the world runs revolutionizing pc-gaming

you'd be a little smug too

[Anonymous No.5666246]

>>5664665
I'm interested but your pic doesnt explain, and what do you mean, like the later releases changed it?

Or they changed it once when hey made the game, probably for shot like texture memory and geometry issues so they need to hide things behind turns

[Anonymous No.5666387]

>>5655634
Damn. That's one doomed space marine

[Anonymous No.5666432]

>>5659681
Metallica was the greatest band to grace music. If you haven't listened to all of their albums up to the black album multiple times, you're a faggot and have homework to do. Some people think they made metal, but really, they made orchestra based music.
In the same vein, Id Software is the greatest developer group to have ever graced video gaming. Each example pushed the boundaries of the industry they operated within, changing everything and paving the way for a broader future.

[Anonymous No.5666437]

>>5666432
>Metallica was the greatest band to grace music.
Hmmmm,

that ain't it chief

[Anonymous No.5666449]

>>5666437
Not that guy but Metallica was apart of the big 4, the biggest part. Thrash metal was edgy/cool, it was new, people didn't hear guitars go that fast in mainstream music.

They pioneered that genre along with a few lesser bands, even the second biggest thrash band(Megadeth) was headed by a former member of Metallica.

It was hand in hand with the aesthetics Doom was going for. Edgy, grim dark metal.

[Anonymous No.5666456]

>>5666432
They made some pretty damn good albums, but I think Judas Priest, Saxon, and Alice Cooper all did way better metal.

[Anonymous No.5666458]

>>5660598
Fiend and scrag were pretty fucking cool, and the ogre was okay.
Also didn't mind the death knight and that one like it but a tier down was nice cannon fodder.
The Vore was pretty boring though.
All in all, I found Quake's monsters and weapon set to be generally interesting and alright, if not wanting for a bit more variety.

[Anonymous No.5666480]

>>5661228
That isn't Quake, plz go away.

[Anonymous No.5666483]

>>5666449
Ok, that's more like it, anon

[Anonymous No.5666493]

>>5666456
Which of those bands can play their music with a full orchestra?
I already explained that what Metallica actually did wasn't what most people think they did, and that isn't even going into the songs lyrically.

[Anonymous No.5666657]

>>5664641
Heh, nice, I remember these figs being nicely articulated. I had the black one.

[Anonymous No.5666779]

>>5651338
What does it say in the pic?
>OK LOOK I GET IT IT
>BUT I NEED TO DO SOMETHING ELSE

[Anonymous No.5666997]

>>5666779
Okay looking better
But still we need to do something else

[Anonymous No.5667178]

>>5664641
I had that Power Ranger toy!

[Anonymous No.5668574]

>>5663404
EA also stole some groundbreaking physics code from Bethesda, and used it in their football games, making huge profits on their work.

[Anonymous No.5668602]

Just finished reading the thread. Doom is cool precisely because of the whole DIY punk band aspect to it, the fact it could run acceptably on home office toasters certainly helps

[Anonymous No.5668605]

>>5664641
Fucking brilliant

[Anonymous No.5668681]

>>5668602
It would run, but not every toaster ran it that well.
It was advertised that it would run on a 386 computer, and it would, but you would at best get 20FPS on average (which they made sure to make the levels around), and your PC might not have enough memory to both run the game and to run your mousedrivers at the same time, so you'd be stuck with keyboard only.
The proper baseline would really be a 486, which would give you much better FPS, and would allow you to use a mouse for quick and precise turning, like you would see in the attract mode demos.

[Anonymous No.5668717]

Fuck, accidentally hit Post before I was finished.

It would however still run on a toaster, and was still a damn fun game, with some cutting edge visuals (which still looked good if you ran it in Low Detail Mode, for a bit of extra framerate).
In fact the game was still pretty fun when butchered for console ports.
The mix of techniques, styles, and sources, which was used for graphics, is something which I find quite endearing and which I think suits the pseudo horror style of Doom perfectly.

Quake was somewhat more cohesive visually (as monsters and weapons were now rendered 3D models with digitally painted textures), but still had some of that disjointed feeling to it, partially because the development cycle was a hot mess.
Also a damn fun game, and playable even if your computer wasn't the strongest, or if you lacked a graphic's card.
For the average guy at launch, Quake ran at 20fps in software 3D mode, with a low and crunchy resolution, but it still looked great to people and was still heaps of fun, and the idea of making it look and play even better with a stronger PC, one with a graphic's card, drove a lot of market and development, people upgraded their computers or bought brand new ones just to play better Quake.

[Anonymous No.5668741]

>>5668717
>or if you lacked a graphic's card.

[Anonymous No.5668747]

>>5668741
Well, 3D acceleration I mean, that wasn't really a thing yet in 1996

[Anonymous No.5668757]

>>5668747
And most importantly, Quake didn't support it because it was a DOS game. That would have meant programming a renderer for each 3d accelerator on the market.

[Anonymous No.5668769]

>>5668757
Yeah. Doom and Quake really set some important courses on the technical side.

[Anonymous No.5669051]

>>5650569
if you listen to enough classic metal the entire doom soundtrack was pretty brazenly ripped off riffs and even entire songs. i'm amazed that they got away with it

[Anonymous No.5669056]

>>5669051
Bobby Prince (or someone on the id team) was a lawyer and knew how much you could sample a song legally

[Anonymous No.5669084]

>>5659131
he also made his own thermite to melt through the computer lab window instead of just breaking it. fuckin nerd

[Anonymous No.5669157]

>>5669051
>it's amazing that they got away with it
That's what Bobby thought too.

>>5669056
Not true, and there's actually no real basis to that idea, Bobby himself denies that.
He made the music like they asked, and then he sent it to them under the condition that if there was any trouble, they would be responsible solely.

He thought they would get sued so hard, and thought they were crazy, but to his surprise, they actually never were sued.

[Anonymous No.5669170]

>>5669051
>>5669157
wasn't the metal music mostly placeholders, too?

i wish nu-id would license some rock/metal for nu-doom. would be amazing to hear big gun in a FPS.

[Anonymous No.5669439]

>>5664641
>The fucking Danger Ranger

[Anonymous No.5669764]

>>5669170
Bobby thought that maybe they were placeholders, as using copyrighted music just as placeholders during development was something people would do back then.

>i wish nu-id would license some rock/metal for nu-doom. would be amazing to hear big gun in a FPS.
It'd be cool, but the license costs would be pretty high, and they would work the best if recut and remixed for looping and possibly without the vocals, which I don't know if all bands would be cool with or not.
On the other hand, Grand Theft Auto featured lots of licensed music ever since I was a kid.

Personally, I just seek out as much of what the music is all based on as I can, get those tracks (and associated ones), and listen to that while making Doom stuff.

[Anonymous No.5670470]

>>5652882
penis in vagoo

[Anonymous No.5670475]

>>5670470
romero... have sex?!

[Anonymous No.5670496]

>>5652878
just me or does that look like a 1996 copyright on the bottom right screen?

[Anonymous No.5670529]

>>5670475
Gas station attendants pull in a lot of pussy.

[Anonymous No.5670562]

>>5654673
it's a capture from a poorly-deinterlaced video (they blended the fields together)
in simple terms, it's two frames combined together, the man was moving at that moment

[Anonymous No.5670803]

>>5652878
K I N O
I
N
O

[Anonymous No.5670896]

I wonder if it's possible using neural nets to reverse the rotoscoping process, i.e. given a figure's spritesheet from all 8 angles (and maybe even cross-referencing other frames too), produce a 3d voxel figure of the item (like the doom voxel project, but applied to enemies, and automatic)

[Anonymous No.5671367]

>>5659239
>when duke run fine on 486dx and even run somehow on 486sx.
duke3d is 99% integer math only (with the exception of slopes)

[Anonymous No.5671421]

>>5669170
The Doom 2016 soundtrack is literally GOAT for metal music, I don't know why the fuck they'd license anything when they can make their own.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNkQMtZAMAw

[Anonymous No.5671425]

>>5671421
i don't play new games much, but is doom 2016 any good?

[Anonymous No.5671426]

>>5671425
You're going to get a lot of opinions. The maps aren't as complex, but it really tries to make Doom Doom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxBQmSXrDxM

[Anonymous No.5671472]

>>5657796
hahaha

[Anonymous No.5671481]

>>5671426
>first-person Megaman dash-platforming with slow-shooting enemies and random freeze-frame melee attacks
Just as I remember the original

[Anonymous No.5671494]

>>5671425
Honestly it kinda sucks. Once you get over the special kill animations and the music the game feels oddly incomplete. Enemy AI and pathfinding has absolutely no logic or reason. They had to create a bandaid fix so enemies don't take advantage of the situation so they won't always attack even if they can. The sound design is absolute dogshit, its quite literally unfinished. Turn off the music and half of the weapons have placeholder sounds turned down super quiet so you don't notice. Most enemies also have no sound effects with an absurdly loud yelling coming from some random zombie off in the distance to distract you from the fact they never got around to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuOObGjCA7Q
Don't hate me for posting this but it has a nice summery of what makes the OG Doom so good. The new Doom has nothing in common with it.

[Anonymous No.5671496]

>>5670896
Try it out
https://alicevision.github.io

[Anonymous No.5671508]

>>5671494
>Once you get over the special kill animations
i don't even want those on non-boss enemies, it just slows things down
they look cool in trailers, but do nothing for the gameplay
>Turn off the music and half of the weapons have placeholder sounds turned down super quiet so you don't notice. Most enemies also have no sound effects with an absurdly loud yelling coming from some random zombie off in the distance to distract you from the fact they never got around to it.
that's really unfortunate, doom 1/2's sound effects make up half of the atmosphere

[Anonymous No.5671520]

>>5671425
They turned up the "It's clobberin' time!" elements to 10 and left everything else at 0. He's basically a green power ranger now that punches ammo out of enemies. You no longer have to evoke knowledge of the map (kiting enemies, rationing resources) to proceed. You get locked into chambers and are fed powerups to kill groups of monsters. I thought it was kinda great, but not amazing.

[Anonymous No.5671639]

>>5660525
I meant socially you inept faggot.

[Anonymous No.5671650]

>>5671496
Very nice. Anyone try it with the Doom enemies?

[Anonymous No.5671680]

>>5660523
I entered this thread with no context and from reading your post I assumed you were talking about one of the Columbine kids. Amazing what difference a healthy outlet for your feelings can make. Carmack could have been a mass shooter if he didn't have such a knack for making games.

[Anonymous No.5671738]

>>5671425
i played until the last level and stopped lol

[Anonymous No.5671746]

>>5671738
before you finished it or when the credits started rolling?

[Anonymous No.5671748]

>>5671746
before i finished it. it was about 3 years ago. i started the level with low health already and kept dying so i took a break and didnt come back

[Anonymous No.5671752]

>>5671748
>before i finished it
holy crap!

I've never gotten that far in a game only to drop it. Think you might go back to it?

[Anonymous No.5671794]

>>5668681
Fun fact: Carmack was fundamentally against the use of a computer mouse. He saw it as a needless gimmick that distracted from the more useful and versatile keyboard, and he predicted that the mouse was a fad that would soon die out. This is why DOOM's levels were designed to be played with keyboard only. The only reason it has mouse support is because ID software execs forced them to include it.

[Anonymous No.5671801]

>>5671752
if the gamesaves are still on my computer. otherwise i'd just start over again, its been so long i dont remember much of the game anyways only that there were little doll secret pickups here and there

[Anonymous No.5672237]

>>5671425
Eh, not really. It's just your average, linear FPS with master chief as main character, if you like that sort of stuff go for it but if you want the traditional gameplay you should go far away because this is nothing like it; zoomers and pseudo-boomers will defend it only because they're blinded by the fact that there's written "DOOM" on the title (although it's actually made by Bethesda and nu-IdSoftware)

>t. played it at great length since day one without expecting too much from it and even then i was severely disappointed.

[Anonymous No.5672398]

Anyone got that youtube vid of someone's mod of Quake with assets from NuDoom?

[Anonymous No.5672471]

>>5671421
I thought the 2016 soundtrack was decent enough, but I still think that electric guitars and famous heavy metal riffs are part of the Doom charm.
That said, I don't oppose them trying to build an all new take on Doom with its own identity, that's far better than trying to senselessly imitate an immortal classic.

>>5671425
It depends, opinions are mixed, but fairly positive. I had *extremely* reserved expectations, so I was pleasantly surprised that it wasn't garbage, and I enjoyed it.

It's entertaining, but level design isn't too complex (though exploration is rewarded), and a point many criticize (in my opinion rightfully so), is that combat can be quite formulaic given the game's propensity for putting you in some manner of arena space and then locking you in (people compare this to Painkiller, which I've never played), rather than the original game, where you could generally just roam a level as you progressed, and encounters could outright be escaped and run past, or moved from one area to another, possibly merging with another encounter.
Doom 2016 lacks that particular fluidity to it, and I think that's its weakest point.

Doom Eternal is around the corner, and it seems like it will try to improve on Doom 2016's faults, which is what I wanted, but the question is if this exact point will improve.

[Anonymous No.5672509]

How do you guys Doom on the go? I've gotten used to using Chocolate doom with my Vita.

[Anonymous No.5672541]

>>5651167
Ya, honestly I think in the end it was good cause the original release was just for a freaking carnival in bumpfuck nowhere, japan. I enjoyed and always member going back to good ol SMB2. The fucking masks always made me try and think of short cuts just cause i was scared of them.

[Anonymous No.5672545]

>>5672509
These days I outright don't. I tried playing a really shit Boom derivative that came with Freedoom, on a cheap Android phone, and besides the program somehow breaking all the fucking time (all sound and music disappeared if you opened the menu, and it would never come back until you quit the game, or until it crashed), it ran like shit, and touch screen controls are just not suited for anything fast like that.
I outright resigned myself to dusting off my DS and playing the old GBA ports on that, which while not perfect, would generally maintain a far better framerate and NOT crash or spontaneously break features (nor would I have to play with Freedoom).

This was like 8 years ago though, and I have a far nicer phone now. If I used one of those gamepad attachments, it might be decent, though I don't know if there's any better ports available.

[Anonymous No.5673406]

>>5672237
this is what i wanted to know, guess i'll skip it

[Anonymous No.5673552]

>>5672237
It puts a focus on melee finishers, which I think is different from Halo (I've never played those games, mind), and it's not at all made by Bethesda, it's still developed by ID Software, Zenimax just uses the Bethesda name for publishing it.

[Anonymous No.5674374]

>>5658491
The alpha version of the shotgun had an extended muzzle, sort of, possibly this was the 'safety cap' it had, recolored to fit the rest of the gun.
The alpha/beta sprites have been used in a fair few mods over the years, maybe that's what you saw.

[Anonymous No.5674431]

>>5652102
Oh god, imagine some zoomer kid going through his stuff in the future and thinking "eugh scary icky military-style semi-automatic assault shotgun rifle with magazine clips still on? Better sell it on craigslist fast"

[Anonymous No.5675020]

>>5674431
Honestly, Broussard could probably auction it off to some nerd like me if he ever finds himself needing money, I'd pay as much as $2000 for the thing.
Conflicted on whether or not I would get the Duke style radiation logo engraved on the receiver though.

[Anonymous No.5676608]

>>5672398
Asking this again. I believe it was an unlisted video, think the guy who did Quake 1.5 made it?

[Anonymous No.5678571]

I know this wasn't intending to be a Doom thread, but it is interesting that Doom has SO many of these sorts of dev stories - seemingly far more than most other games which seems odd, you'd expect some parity.

[Anonymous No.5678592]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzZsQQIRJIA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKgLfqOVHco

[Anonymous No.5678617]

>>5678571
Doom was one of those mega hits, which there's lots of, but it was done by this weird little studio of almost indie devs, a ragtag bunch of misfits who didn't quite play by the rules, most who grew up with the aspirations of making games and getting lots of money and fame, then did.
There was a decent amount of documenting during development, there was even a book written about them, and you have a guy like John Romero, who really liked interacting with fans, and shared lots of stories and pictures with people who were curious, as well as a whole bunch of old developmental assets.
You then have the extra spergy fans, those who can identify toys and props, and who'll page through resource libraries to see if they find stuff which was used for the game, or carefully analyzes graphics to identify if something was cobbled together from other extant assets.

[Anonymous No.5678626]

>>5671425
>>5673406
Do you like Painkiller? It's basically Painkiller.
It's really good and you shouldn't skip it just because it's not the same as old DOOM.

No replay value, though. Worth the few bucks it costs on sale.

[Anonymous No.5678639]

>>5678626
>>Do you like Painkiller? It's basically Painkiller.
No it isn't, painkiller has fun weapons like the stake gun.

New Doom is just a really mediocre arena shooter. I don't know why anyone would play it if they don't really love the genre, and they've already played SS and painkiller to death.

[Anonymous No.5678642]

>>5678617
Yeah that's a fair assessment. The documentation is really extensive, books like Masters of Doom etc. and even the lore like the Doom Bible.

[Anonymous No.5678737]

>>5671425
It’s fun to play but combat wise closer to Serious Sam with its arena style fights vs. open progression in classic Doom games.

[Anonymous No.5680193]

>>5671794
>He saw it as a needless gimmick
source? the mouse had been established as a legitimate input device way before doom

[Anonymous No.5680232]

>>5652064
>the Pinkie Demon was painted over a Jurassic Park dinosaur toy
Ah, so the graphics were made the same way as the music

[Anonymous No.5680294]

>>5680232
In a way. A lot of the models they used they sculpted themselves, or commissioned from Punchatz.

[Anonymous No.5680295]

>>5655901
He used to smoke, and gamble too

[Anonymous No.5680304]

>>5653228
>I did try to make a made-for-TV movie. Things didn't work out, and I got bored with it and cancelled that project.

[Anonymous No.5680395]

>>5666246
I think what he means is the first few areas were modeled after actual city locations, while the rest of City 17 was designed as just a game level. Which is to say, a lot of the stuff you'd see would have no logical reason to be there in an actual city. The layout is strange and doesn't seem to benefit anyone who would live there.

[Anonymous No.5680427]

>>5670896
I find it amusing that the Doom4 revenant looks more like the model than the original.

[Anonymous No.5680435]

>>5671425
It's very good. Not as good as the originals but there was pretty much no way they'd ever top that. It's a worthy followup and I'm glad the IP is active again.

[Anonymous No.5680449]

>>5678571
Doom's development wasn't the professional, corporate sort of thing you normally see in game development. It was a bit amateurish, and they tried all kinds of weird shit to see what would work, since they were breaking new ground and all. The casual development by a small handful of people also means they have more stories to tell, and know more about the process as a whole. With a lot of games you'll just get "I did what I was paid to do and then moved on" if you asked somebody who worked on the game what it was like.

[Anonymous No.5680472]

>>5650616
>room over room technology
I don't know why but this phrase made me laugh

[Anonymous No.5680474]

>>5664702
Scarily enough it now is

[Anonymous No.5680479]

>>5680193
I have no evidence (also not same anon), but that theory has a bit of logic to it.
Carmack was a programmer and most early computer terminal stuff would have been done using keyboard only, and even when the mouse came along, keyboard shortcuts would have been (and still are) way faster than using a mouse for someone who had them memorized, which is a staple thing for programmers to do.
There were also a lot of gimmicky computer peripherals around that time which were going no where.

[Anonymous No.5680512]

>>5680449
Not only that, they weren't even putting 100% of their effort into Doom. Doom's development was interspersed with both making Spear of Destiny and porting Wolf3D to the Super NES.

[Anonymous No.5680959]

Zelda: A Link to the Past only uses 8 colors instead of 16. I believe this was to save memory for the two maps.

[Anonymous No.5681331]

>>5680959
I don't think that's right... Take in mind four colours is Game Boy tier, no colour console has had such a limited palette, specially not the SNES.

[Anonymous No.5681834]

>>5680512
They were actually really invested in developing Doom, the issue was that they had contracted out the Wolf3D port to Burger Bill, who for whatever reason hadn't gotten anything done, and Imagineer, who they had promised the port for, was breathing down their necks.
They decide "Fuck, we gotta deal with this!" and then hurried to churn out that port so they could get back to work on Doom.

Spear Of Destiny I think can't have taken too much focus away from Doom, since it's basically just a map pack for Wolfenstein 3D, with just a few new assets.

[Anonymous No.5681852]

>>5680474
>HL2
>2004
>retro
too late by about 4-5 years

[Anonymous No.5681898]

>>5652661
I really miss the old id and the excitement about them releasing something new and groundbreaking... when every new info Carmack dropped seemed like a paradigm shift.
I'll also never forget seeing DoomII for the first time on my Pentium60 - mesmerizing.
93' - 96' are my favorite years of theirs.

[Anonymous No.5682017]

>>5681898
I first saw Doom 2 when I was like, seven, back in 1999, and I had seen Quake 2 before, thought it was pretty cool, but Doom I had never seen before, the monsters looked far more evil and mean, and it looked far more violent and cool (the guns even made muzzleflashes, like in Goldeneye 64 and in the action movies I liked, something Quake 2 disappointingly didn't do), I fell instantly in love.
I'd later get to try the first Quake as well.

Doom and Quake really are some of the very best games of that decade, and every time I sit down and play them, I'm grateful I live in a time where entertainment like this exists.

[Anonymous No.5682653]

>>5663478
Do you think developers are MADE of money?

[Anonymous No.5682734]

>>5682653
Id Software in 1993? They were actually doing pretty well for themselves (Commander Keen and Wolfenstein 3D was bringing in good cash), they did hire professional artists to assist.
Of course, Doom was the game which truly made them stinkin' rich, and the reasons why the guys started buying fancy sports cars and buying fancy houses.

[Anonymous No.5682739]

>>5682653
Dude

they bought a Ferrari

cash

[Anonymous No.5683308]

>>5682739
Yeah, but that was after Doom.

[Anonymous No.5683845]

>>5672509
I use delta touch you can get it free if you ask beloko for a code on doomworld
>>5672545
It has definitely changed in 8 years. You can have gzdoom on android now

[Anonymous No.5684304]

>>5683845
Yeah, but do I really want to play a game like Doom on a touch screen?

[Anonymous No.5685084]

>>5653134
>lefty
scum

[Anonymous No.5685108]

>>5685084
>a top men of a creative industry
>wait he a lefty?!
WHAT A TWIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!