/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.5552874]

The problem with turn-based RPGs has always been the use of a single "Attack" command.

It creates a huge discrepancy in fun between martial and caster classes/characters, the latter of whom have access to pages upon pages of skills, techniques, *magic*; while the former is doomed to spam a single button for the entire game.

Only Pokemon and barely 7th Dragon (not retro) avoid this, out of the entire genre. This is why JRPGs have a poor reputation for gameplay.

[Anonymous No.5552879]

>>5552874
I'm assuming you're not including tactical RPGs. Because those are fucking GOAT.

[Anonymous No.5552883]

>>5552879
when they're JRPGs they do the same thing

when they're western, they're using guns and explosives, which is the equivalent since there's only one way to shoot

TRPGs don't do anything differently on this topic

[Anonymous No.5552887]

This only really applies to games where characters can spend no MP to do as much damage, if not more, as other characters who have to spend copious amounts of MP to be viable - the Final Fantasy games are a good example of this. Chrono Trigger on the other hand, I think is a good example of how to balance it right. It's not long before techs start to become useful and normal attacks are done primarily to conserve MP.

[Anonymous No.5552925]

>>5552887
Conversely, Chrono Cross does it completely wrong as magic is fundamentally useless and the attack command is where you're pretty much going to do everything you ever need.

Xenogears also falls into this trap, albeit to a lesser extent.

[Anonymous No.5552940]

you're overthinking it, just make the basic commands like attack/guard fun to use
judging the distance between you and the enemy, the time it will take for the attack to go off and then canceling an enemy's big move with a regular attack in Grandia games feels satisfying, so does moving out of an enemy's way before it can reach you and canceling its move with a different character
Timed button presses in SMRPG for different weapon animations and guarding against enemy attacks with different attack animations is a simple and satisfying way to keep a player engaged
I guess you could have more rules that prevent the player from turning his brain off during battles even if he has grinded, like EXP only going to the character that dealt the killing blow to an enemy (Ultima 3 had this), so your weak mage can't just sit in the back doing nothing and get EXP
no automatic retargeting was also a staple in NES RPGs

having a buttload of situational skills doesn't automatically make combat fun

[Anonymous No.5553084]

>>5552874
In Lunar every character has in battle skills or spells besides just attack and they're all useful.

In Final Fantasy VI, VII, VIII and IX the set up is similar. Same with Chrono Trigger, Cross, Romancing SaGa

Same With SMT and Persona series. Breath of Fire as well.

Aside from some early games luke FF1 and a party of all Black Belts I'm having a hard time coming up with games where what you describe is the case. Which ones specifically are you referring to?

[Anonymous No.5553117]

I see you haven't played many rpgs

[Anonymous No.5553273]

I like when RPGs like Earthbound make heavy useful of utility items for battle.

[Anonymous No.5553287]

Fuck off with your Book of Weeaboo Fightan Magic bullshit

[Anonymous No.5555119]

>>5553273
Mother 3's combo system was really cool too, and Duster's thief tools are awesome

[Anonymous No.5555128]

>>5553287
Problem normgroid

[Anonymous No.5557553]

>>5552874
Which games are even like ?

[Anonymous No.5557585]

>tfw you JUST realized that all Pokemon are basically spellcasters and you have to choose their spells
>just like spellcasters, their attacks have a limited number of uses
>and just like them, they learn better spells as time goes on
>mfw this whole time we were playing a black mage run of FF

[Anonymous No.5557592]

>>5552874
Atb faggot.

[Anonymous No.5557637]

Unfortunately Pokemon progressively just got far too easy to even make use of any really interesting combat mechanic it even has.

Also as far as what OP is saying, this doesn't really seem to be that big of an issue for a lot of other JRPGs. In the Megami Tensei series, specifically for this example Soul Hackers, demons can use generic attacks but constantly is the player forced to make use of physical skills which are different from magic skills which are often very powerful and helpful alternatives in battle at the cost of sacrificing some of the demon's HP which makes for an interesting risk and reward system. The game still features the generic end all be all "attack" button but because it's more often than not, not actually the most optimal course of action, the combat ends up being more engaging. So no... the single "Attack" command is not a problem... At all.

[Anonymous No.5557654]

>>5557585
this isn't even true
you have fighters like tauros and white mages like chansey
if anything, you should say every pokemon is a red mage

[Anonymous No.5557740]

>>5552874
t. has only played FF and considers himself knowledgeable about JRPGs

[Anonymous No.5557784]

>>5552874
so... what's your point? You couldn't beat ff4 or something? I'm so confused. Theres no 'universal source/opinion' that jrpgs have a 'poor reputation for gameplay' whatever that means to you. their still my favorite games so you're invalidated. try again next time i guess.

[Anonymous No.5557792]

>>5557654
A fighter has an infinite supply of attacks, mages do not.

[Anonymous No.5557804]

>>5557792
well mages generally don't have physical techniques

[Anonymous No.5558202]

>>5552874
>Only Pokemon and barely 7th Dragon (not retro) avoid this, out of the entire genre.
Wow, you sure haven't played many JRPGs. Certainly not a Saga game. You probably also think that Dragon Quest games require grinding, because you don't understand when and where to use your magic.
Many RPGs do have shitty boring combat systems, though, and most have shitty boring stories. Check out the Saga games if you want both, or turn to SRPGs for gameplay.

>a huge discrepancy in fun between martial and caster classes/characters
Get this /tg/ D20 system edition war/balance bullshit out of here.

[Anonymous No.5558356]

>pokemans are the best jarpigs
I love /vr/.

[Anonymous No.5558362]

>>5558356
Mechanics wise Pokemon really is one of the best RPGs of the retro era.

[Anonymous No.5558364]

>>5558202
He wasn't even talking about grinding.

[Anonymous No.5558438]

>>5552874
>Only Pokemon and barely 7th Dragon (not retro) avoid this, out of the entire genre

Really? Then with the mass of RPGs out there you should have no trouble listing at least five that do have the problem you describe. we all know you can't

[Anonymous No.5558698]

>>5552940
Personally, my favorite remedy to the standard "attack" command is Grandia's battle system. You can choose between "combo" or "critical" for your attacks. Combos are two weaker hits, while critical is one strong one that takes a bit to charge up. The combo does more damage overall, but the critical hit has the ability to stagger the enemy, or even cancel their attacks if you do it at the right time. In certain battles, you can basically have your whole party focus on an enemy with crits and they'll never get to do anything.

>like EXP only going to the character that dealt the killing blow to an enemy
This is the most awful idea I've ever heard. At the very least, experience should be portioned out based on battle participation, and not just to the dude who gets the killing blow. Although I suppose that would be easy to manipulate specifically for grinding purposes, but highly annoying everywhere else.

[Anonymous No.5558714]

>>5558362
It's also extremely intuitive with teaching you how the attacks work and their effectiveness, and most jarpigs significantly lower your defense if you attempt to run, which if it fails, you will take a lot of damage. In older RPGs, it was wiser to fight random encounters, while in pokemon you can easily run away from them, and if it fails you'll only get hit for normal damage, none of that 999 damage bullshit. It also helps that the names are very descriptive, and are much less vague than "heal" or "cure".

[Anonymous No.5558742]

>>5558714
>It also helps that the names are very descriptive, and are much less vague than "heal" or "cure".
While I agree that Pokemon is a fantastic gateway that smooths over some of the more clunky or unforgiving aspects of JRPGs, the move names were HORRIBLY vague in Gen 1. It was painful to have to pick permanently overwriting moves without knowing at all what the new ones did, or whether they were even damaging or status moves. Granted later games fixed this, but since we're talking retro, it was still a big problem. At least GS started showing move power and stuff.

[Anonymous No.5558841]

>>5558364
That wasn't even anon's point.

[Anonymous No.5558863]

>>5552874
How was it in 7th Dragon? I've been playing 2020 I & II an dI liked those although I see little use in basic attacks other than to conserve MP.

My problem with basic attacks is that in most games you usually have so many MP/SP/whatever that you only ever use skills to attack instead. I think Golden Sun did a good job of giving the player an incentive to use basic attacks with weapon unleashing but even then it's just a critical hit with added effects, basically a chance to cast a skill for free.

[Anonymous No.5558868]

As others have said, the SaGa games are probably the biggest example of exactly what you're talking about. There is no "attack" command. Instead, every character starts with a very basic skill for whichever weapon you give them, then any time you use that weapon in battle you have a small chance of the character randomly learning more techniques. Like, swordsmen will generally start with a basic slash, then later learn things like slashes that do extra damage against certain enemy types, attacks that target specific body parts, weak attacks that make your next move come sooner, skills that make their next attack stronger, attacks that run off a different stat than strength, and so on.

[Anonymous No.5559005]

>>5552874
You're absolutely right OP. This is why games like Saga Frontier were more interesting in its approach to gameplay because it didn't go for the typical gameplay. The standard should have been something like these games, where your characters have a list of interesting abilities regardless of their class. Melee centric characters are essentially just attack command spammers just as you said.

[Anonymous No.5559049]

>>5558868
So you have a attack skill, but you get to grind for chance to gain Attack +1 and Attack Special +1?
Thats not very different now is it.

That said, SaGa must also have some other redeeming qualities if people keep on shilling it. I wonder why nobody would explain them.

[Anonymous No.5559938]

Pokemon is really impressive and nuanced. As far as turn based video games go its incredibly impressive and staggeringly deep and complex. It is also full of bullshit but it is capable of moments of indescribable brilliancy. t. literal pro level pokemon player

[Anonymous No.5560019]

>>5558742
Yeah, that's still true now that you mention it. Plus there were vague as hell descriptors such as "Pokemon is getting pumped!" It also doesn't help that gen 1 had awful, AWFUL level up attacks for the remaining 130-so shitmons, like Rhyhorn not learning another attack until like 30. And due to how enemy trainers were set up, how the pokemon were specced, and the learnset of starters, certain types like rock were perceived as being absolutely worthless, as all but 1 of them had a double weakness to a starter type.

[Anonymous No.5560473]

Solution, have a "skill" category and instead of mana it uses SP (special points) or stamina.

[Anonymous No.5560624]

>>5560473
but then to balance it, you'd have to make the Attack command use whichever stat was higher instead of always ATK.
But Stamina Points for Physical techniques and Mana Points for Special/Magical techniques is a great solution.

[Anonymous No.5561225]

The problem with FPS games has always been the small size of the battlefields. Due to the short engagement distances, shotguns are the ideal weapon for every encounter, and anyone wielding any other weapon will either be outgunned or quickly run out of ammo. Unreal Tournament is the only game in the entire genre that avoids this problem, because it does not have shotguns.

[Anonymous No.5561294]

>>5552925
Most RPGs balance the game very poorly where you will just be hitting "attack" the whole game as its almost as powerful as your best magic and MP drains so fast that it's not worth using outside of boss fights...and status effects never work on enemies. Persona 2, is the opposite, it's a game where attack is almost useless, and you're always using the magic of your Personas and MP use isn't a huge punishment because it replenishes with every level up (and leveling is quite fast,) that's a game also where status effects never work on enemies. Honesty, I think the non retro Persona 3 does an excellent job with its turn based system, making use of all of its attacks and magics giving every enemy unique weaknesses and requiring the player to exploit those weaknesses in order to have any chance of surviving multiple battles, Persona 4 also does it but it's not executed as well as in 3. The player, likewise, has such weaknesses and must work around them in battle. All potential attacks in the game are useful and, borderline, mandatory for solving different battle situations.

[Anonymous No.5561339]

>>5558841
My point was grinding problems wasn't OP's point. Not that it matters since he's completely retarded, but whatever.

[Anonymous No.5561347]

>>5560473
That's basically how Lunar works.

[Anonymous No.5561349]

>>5561347
No it doesn't, everyone's specials in Lunar all run off MP.

[Anonymous No.5561379]

>>5561349
It's functionally the same though. Some people have skills and others use magic. You could have Jean's karate arts have an SP instead of MP but it's all the same. Point is, there really isn't a solution needed because what OP describes is a non-problem.

[Anonymous No.5561646]

>>5552925
Magic is useless in CC?? How can one be so wrong? You can deal over 3k damage with a summon, without much effort.

[Anonymous No.5562024]

>>5552887

Except for Ayla and Chrono. You can easily have 2k damage crit hits with the Rainbow sword (and it crits basically every attack).

Magus too if you run solo. If you get both other party members dead he can be hitting Lavos with a haste helm on over and over with 4k crits.

FF6 attack >>>> magic for end game. With gengi gloves and X attacks you can dish out tens of thousands of damage an attack. Ultima is shit in comparison.

I've one hit Kefka's final form with dual Atma weapon attacks.

[Anonymous No.5562063]

>>5559049
>So you have a attack skill, but you get to grind for chance to gain Attack +1 and Attack Special +1?
No, it's more akin to if each weapon type were a different type of spellcaster with a list of "spells". The skills they learn are things like attacks that can cause debuffs, attacks that hit certain enemy types or formations harder, strong attacks that lower your stats after use, ect. All attacks also have a specific range that effects where in the formation they can go (think Final Fantasy's frontline/backline system, except more in-depth). For example, if you pick a swordsman expecting him to be a close-range unit and he learns his mid-ranged attacks early, you might have to pick a different formation entirely to get the most use out of him.

[Anonymous No.5562691]

>>5552874
It's and older issue, thankfully even some SNES games got more involved, though it's still a problem in FF series which is bewildering.

Etrian Odyssey, though not retro, does turn based combat really well, and as for more traditional series DQ's later installments also have a lot of cool skills for everyone. Different damage types and setting up counters, combos are all something that make melee fighters more interesting.

I'd recommend looking into PS era games for some variety.

[Anonymous No.5562847]

>>5562691
Final Fantasy 6 did, at least, have character-specific commands to give most of the fighters at least a bit of variety (also every character was also a mage, so it didn't matter much).

[Anonymous No.5562884]

>>5552874
We've come a long way since then...

[Anonymous No.5562887]

>>5562884
Degeneration.

[Anonymous No.5565660]

[Anonymous No.5565665]

>>5565660
How?

[Anonymous No.5565675]

>>5565665
3 empty spoilers spaced apart
don't test it here

[Anonymous No.5565686]

>>5552883
Burst fire or single shot fire

[Anonymous No.5565691]

>>5565675
I have seen the abyss
And it peers back at me
Clawing and unyielding

[Anonymous No.5565692]

>>5557637
Pokemon was never hard

[Anonymous No.5565702]

>>5561225
Quake and all its children don't generally have issues with shotguns

[Anonymous No.5565703]

>>5565692
take this

[Anonymous No.5565727]

>>5565703
fucking based

[Anonymous No.5566442]

The attack thing seems to be more of a problem in wrpg to me, especially those based on d&d. In my experience jrpgs warrior often get some move like double slash, whirlwind, flame sword, etc

[Anonymous No.5567963]

>>5562884
And people thought Blue's Exeggutor was bad. At least in RBY, it was due to a combination of most enemy pokemon having movesets that consisted of attacks learned from level up and stone evolution pokemon no longer learning attacks. Only gym leaders afaik had custom moves, and that was only for their last pokemon to use said gym leader's TM. What happened in X and Y?

[Anonymous No.5567981]

>>5553287
Worst splatbook ever

[Anonymous No.5570405]

>>5565703
I guess I'm too retarded for jarpigs.