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5518783 No.5518783 [Reply] [Original]

Why did a fun concept for a Doom clone have to be ruined by terrible level design? There is a moment in the first episode of Blood where you hit a switch and Caleb says, "what the hell did that do?", this sums up my experience playing Hexen.

>> No.5518784

get good faggot, or just go back to your minimap quest marking zoomer shit

>> No.5518790

>>5518783
use your eyes/brain and explore a little
i dont remember exactly how it went, but i didnt get lost in that level
and hexen was advertised as having puzzles, you should know what youre getting into

>> No.5518792

This and Strife are the only Doom engine games I've never beaten. The key/switch hunts are too crazy and you're always low on ammo so you don't get to use the fun weapons much at all.

>> No.5518824

>>5518792
That was my biggest problem with it, so little ammo

>> No.5518838

Wish they'd bring back Hexen. 1 and 2 are rough, but you could see the potential there.

>> No.5518849

>>5518783
use the map

also isnt there a doom general?

>> No.5518865

>>5518783
The only truly difficult part of this game is the Seven Portals, once you got past that bullshit, the rest of the game is less difficult and annoying so git gud nigger.

>> No.5518931

>Hectacomb never

>> No.5518980

Once again, a thread where people who suck at video games as players and have never made one as developers blame some abstract concept they can't properly define or defend to compensate for their shortcomings.

Fuck off with this shit already.

>> No.5518981

>>5518784
>minimap quest marking
you know i never really understood the logic behind why some people have contempt for this.

i always just imagine it as someone is going hiking into the wilderness without a map & refusing to follow the trail markers because "muh handholding" and then proceeding to get lost in the woods as a result.

that said OP is a faggot for getting lost in a game with an auto-map.

>> No.5519002

>>5518981
it automates things. It all started when rpgs took notes automatically, which is fine i guess. Then when they tell you where to go and what to do on a minimap at all times, it's just turning you into a braindead fag that doesnt need to pay attention to things. It's not bad per se, but it babyseats you as if assuming you're a lazy slob at all times. If there's option to turn those off i always do so.

>> No.5519003

>>5518981
In games like Skyrim the quest markers literally pinpoint the exact spot you need to go, which removes any sense of accomplishment for finding it. Contrast that with how you're given directions of where to go in Morrowind.
>>5518931
Hexen 2 is that, just with a more recognizable name.

>> No.5519009

>>5519003
The problem with Morrowind is that I'll get side tracked by a bunch of bullshit on the way to where I'm trying to get to for a quest, then forget where I was supposed to be going next. That and how the journal just updates itself in chronological order instead of having all the quests listed like in Skyrim so I know if I have any loose ones I forgot to do. The thing I hate the most is doing a quest, just to run into some asshole on the road who puts a new quest in my journal so I have to either do all his shit and hope I remember to finish what I was doing or go finish what I was doing and hope I don't forget his bullshit.

>> No.5519010

>>5519009
zoomer detected, take notes you flaming faggot

>> No.5519034

>>5518783
Heretic has the same shitty level design too. Flipping a switch on one side of a map that opens a pathway on the other side you couldn't hear or see is just dumb.

>> No.5519124

>>5519034
The porkolator and chicken spells were bad ass though.
But yeah it's the same obvious padding for time that Wizardry 5 was full of, but instead of puzzles it's all switch flipping or putting gems in a fucking wall with a bad doom clone bolted on. In a just world Carmack would have busted out illegal judo moves the second Romero touched something that wasn't a mapping utility.

>> No.5519127

>>5518783
Quicken etc

>> No.5519169

>>5518792
>>5518824
I guess they realised that they went overboard with the ammo pickups in Heretic and decided to go in the opposite direction.

>> No.5519309

>>5518792
Strife is much better than Hexen. Your objectives are a lot clearer than Hexen's endless switch hunting "1/16th of the puzzle has been solved" bullshit.

>> No.5519310

>>5518783
>why is this fun concept ruined by terrible level design?
Welcome to EVERY fucking Quake mod ever made.

>> No.5519395

>>5519310
Fan made Quake map packs don't really have convoluted key hunts, the problem is just way too many enemies and often times just enough ammo. This kinda design naturally only appeals to hardcore players hence why even Arcane Dimensions is not that popular with the general populace.

>> No.5519546

>>5518783
It can get ridiculous but its just Hexen's style. If you aren't a complete retard (hint hint OP) you'll get it after a bit and realize you got to constantly look for switches and explore. Hexen is a great game.

>> No.5519605

Hexen is the best id-tech1 game, if you find the strength to go through it, you will get unforgettable pleasure.

>> No.5519660

>>5519002
The worse part is that it turn the devs into lazy slobs who stops gliving proper ingame directions whithout the quest compass

>> No.5519721

>>5519660
Precisely this.
It's infuriating if your only choice in a game is between basically being pulled through the game on a leash or having close to no clue at all where to go due to quest and compass markers being the only indicators thanks to the devs not having even thought of someone playing without them and just slapped on the option to disable the markers as an afterthought.

>> No.5519775

>>5518792
Strife is far more straight forward than Hexen. Barring one or two locations, you shouldn't be bumbling around clueless as long as you pay attention.

>> No.5519785
File: 158 KB, 1440x900, that really updated my journal.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5519785

>>5519009
>The problem with Morrowind is that I'll get side tracked by a bunch of bullshit on the way to where I'm trying to get to for a quest, then forget where I was supposed to be going next.
I don't have that problem, I generally actually go and do a quest/task when I put my mind to it.

> That and how the journal just updates itself in chronological order instead of having all the quests listed like in Skyrim so I know if I have any loose ones I forgot to do.
But Morrowind DOES keep track of quests in your journal.

>The thing I hate the most is doing a quest, just to run into some asshole on the road who puts a new quest in my journal so I have to either do all his shit and hope I remember to finish what I was doing or go finish what I was doing and hope I don't forget his bullshit.
Or you can ignore him, or just do his shit later. You don't have to talk to everyone you meet, and you don't have to accept every quest you run into.

>> No.5519945

>>5518865
>Seven Portals
>difficult
Huh?

>> No.5519964

>>5518783
Dude, you can literally faceroll this game on the last difficulty as a mage, due to his downright broken first weapon, provided you have a bit of patience. What remains after that? Beautiful and moody labyrinth with hidden switches, artifacts traps.

Do you get it?

It's not about combat. It's about labyrinth (meaning "wherethefuckdoIgonext???: the game") and treasures. They are the whole point. That did, evidently, fly way over your head entirely.

>> No.5519965

>>5519945
It's the most convoluted, in terms of intended progression route, hub in the main game.

>> No.5519969

>>5519964
Also, in this type of games, the proper question to ask is never "Where DO I go?", it's always "Where CAN I go?".

>> No.5519970

>>5519945
It's not so much difficult as it's just kind of obtuse and bland, which isn't good considering it's the beginning of the game.

>> No.5519979

>>5519964
I mean, HeXen 1 isn't even all that unique of a game concept-wise. It's literally dungeon crawler without leveling. That's it. What distinguishes it among other dungeon crawling games is unusually good (for the genre) action combat, and everything art-related.

>> No.5519987

>>5519979
>unusually good (for the genre) action combat
I guess a lot of dungeon crawlers have dogshit for combat, because Hexen's combat always feels like a chore to me.

>and everything art-related
Oh yeah, if anything Hexen looks excellent.

>> No.5519994

>>5518783
But Hexen has excellent level design.

>> No.5520062

>>5519987
>I guess a lot of dungeon crawlers have dogshit for combat
That could even be seen as an understatement.

>> No.5520083

>>5519309
The combat in Hexen is way better though. Strife has too many hitscanners and all your weapons feel unsatisfying.

>> No.5520098

>>5520083
>Strife has too many hitscanners
I fail to see why it's a problem.

>and all your weapons feel unsatisfying
Really? The machinegun feels pretty decent, the rocket launcher is made for spam and you basically use it as a middle-low tier weapon, the grenade launcher is absolute destruction, and the flamethrower is just FUN.

Meanwhile, you only get four weapons in Hexen, and half of them are really boring and clunky, the mace sucks, the fist is boring, the flame spell is awkward to use, the lightning spell is REALLY awkward to use and sometimes fails to work, the ice spell is far weaker than it feels like.

>> No.5520127

>>5520083
>and all your weapons feel unsatisfying
The grenade launcher was amazing.

>> No.5520129

>>5520098
>sometimes fails to work
Arc of Death never fails to work. The way it functions is that the lightning fizzles out when it collides with a wall, even if it's currently stuck to an enemy. It's not meant for tight-space combat but rather more open areas. You're supposed to use the Sapphire Wand or Frost Shards in narrow corridors and tight rooms

>> No.5520137

>>5520129
I've had it fizzle for no reason before.

>> No.5520153

Deathkings of Dark Citadel fixes everything wrong about Hexen but making most of the maps regular doom-style action with very few puzzles spanning multiple maps

>> No.5520175

>>5520098
>>5520127
I could never get a hang of the grenade launcher. It literally bounces OFF of enemies. How is that not the stupidest behavior for a grenade launcher?

>> No.5520185

>>5520175
It's quirky, but once you get the hang of it, you can put it to good use. Instead of trying to shoot directly at enemies with it, try to shoot it so it bounces and lands near them at the end of its timer. Mind the other grenade though.

>> No.5520301

>>5518783
Agreed. I like everything else about it. Would be fun to remake the levels with actual puzzles and logical flow.
>>5518981
I like minimaps, but quest marking and poor level design ruins games. You should know where you are in a space without being led by your teeth.

>> No.5520318

>>5520301
Hexen 2 has actual puzzles rather than switch hunts. It's even harder though.

>> No.5520323

I heard that Heretic 2 is supposed to be really good, and far more straightforward than Hexen, is that true?

>> No.5520348

>>5520323
Heretic 2 is more of an action game, think Jedi Outcast/Academy.

>> No.5520349

>>5520348
Oh and yes, it's really good.

>> No.5520379

>>5520318
Yeah. It's better in general I'm, but l we played.

>> No.5520389

>>5519003
>Contrast that with how you're given directions of where to go in Morrowind
Oh you mean really fucking retarded vague directions that make you fucking spend all day running around looking for the shit that you could have found sooner if the person had been more concise in their directions not "lol somewhere in the northern part of the island". The worst part too is when you're going on your little egg hunt you come across a quest giver, and you have to take their quest otherwise you'll have a hard time finding them again, even though once you finish their fetch mission you'll need to go looking for them again.
You go on about how quest arrows are shit, but Morrowind's way of """""guiding""""" the player is equally as retarded.

>> No.5520408

>>5520379
>It's better in general I'm, but l we played
Are you okay?

>> No.5520413

>>5518981
Agreed. All it did was force you to buy magazines with walkthroughs

>> No.5520436

>>5520389
>Oh you mean really fucking retarded vague directions that make you fucking spend all day running around looking for the shit that you could have found sooner if the person had been more concise in their directions not
They're really not that hard to follow, pay attention to described landmarks and the specific region.

I think there's literally just one case of a character giving you the wrong directions for a quest.

>> No.5520506

>>5520408
I mean yeah, but I'm fart so, yeah

>> No.5520558

>>5520408
Phone posting while bottle feeding a baby. Maybe had a stroke, also.

>> No.5520662
File: 435 KB, 2016x1246, 83497689342.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5520662

Friendly reminder.

>> No.5520681

>>5520662
What the fuck did I miss?

>> No.5520690

>>5520681
Disappointment.

>> No.5520692
File: 60 KB, 596x1046, 1462298506339.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5520692

>>5520681
It was a Twitter post, on April 1st of 2015.

>> No.5520695

>>5520692
By Raven, meant to say.

>> No.5520713

>>5520692
That's such a cruel prank to pull.

>> No.5520732
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5520732

>>5520713
https://twitter.com/ravensoftware/status/583276361642602496?lang=en

>> No.5520759

>>5520732
Fuck, that's just mean. I don't even like Hexen and Heretic that much but I feel really bad seeing that.

>> No.5520771

Dude, I suck at navigating and finding secrets and even I could finish Hexen without any problems.

You're just not even trying.

>> No.5520793

>>5520732
Jesus fuck, they did it again.

https://twitter.com/RavenSoftware/status/1112719128866025473

>> No.5520807
File: 31 KB, 500x566, nice.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5520807

>>5520793

>> No.5521338

>>5519987
>because Hexen's combat always feels like a chore to me.

Hexen has great combat.

>> No.5521635

>>5518792
Strife: Veteran Edition has an option to add objective markers to your automap, so it's a lot better. Usually I don't like objective markers in games, but Strife's level design doesn't make much sense (compared to Thief or Deus Ex)

>> No.5522009

>>5519034
Heretic has best level design of all Doom engine games, bitch.

>> No.5522086
File: 287 KB, 891x689, Hexen Maniac.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5522086

What's your favorite hub? For me it's Shadow Wood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=112WeuCnyQs

>> No.5522112

>>5522086
It's beautifully "painted", but very simplistic progression-wise, probably the simplest, exploration-wise, bunch of levels in the entire game.

I think, I'd go with the Seminary. Seven Portals are more intricate, but I think that seminary isn't that far behind, and it's far more coherent artistically, from what I remember.

Fourth hub though is definitely the lowest point of the game. Fifth hub at least have new interesting enemies (ghosts and enemy heroes), while in fourth even the boss is reused.

>> No.5522165

>>5520153
What exactly did it fix? The only thing I can think of is making better use of Wendigos and Reivers, since they were single-hub exclusive enemies in the base game.

>> No.5522184
File: 108 KB, 998x825, 56842643_2888505421167526_1374914255169519616_o.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5522184

>>5518783
I know exactly what you're talking about. Heretic is kinda the same way, but different.

Those guys did NOT take what the Johns gave in level design to heart.

I love those games, but got damn they can be really frustrating.

>> No.5522216

>>5519127
Quicken Deluxe had those problems too. Absolute trash level design.

>> No.5522227

>>5520323
I don't believe I knew Heretic 2 existed. I had Hexen 2. Didn't like it though.

>> No.5522230
File: 314 KB, 1000x1000, 1525718539620.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5522230

>no Heretic 3
>no Hexen 3
>no Hecatomb

>> No.5522320

>>5522112
The Castle of Grief map is great but the rest of the maps in that hub are pretty blech. A lot of them are really overly claustrophobic/awkward to move in.