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/vr/ - Retro Games

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File: 233 KB, 800x320, 5th gen comparison.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5512539 No.5512539 [Reply] [Original]

A common critique I see of the 5th generation I see is that the transition to 3D ruined a lot of great 2D franchises, often killing them. Apart from some stinkers in series that were getting tired like Earthworm Jim, what game series did the 5th generation kill? What was so bad about the 3D installments?

>> No.5512549

>>5512539
subective.

>> No.5512568

>>5512539
Zelda

>> No.5512569

>>5512568
A Link To the Past did the damage in 2D.

>> No.5512595

>>5512539
Bubsy comes to mind.

>> No.5512601

>>5512595
Wasn't the second game already horrible? Bubsy 3D is better in comparison.

>> No.5512649

The most obvious dip in gameplay quality is Megaman X (legends saved it though) and Castlevania (though SOTN saved it)

>> No.5512658

>>5512539
honestly 3d is killing anime right now and you know what I don't even mind at all

>> No.5512659
File: 100 KB, 613x238, 03-SM64.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5512659

>> No.5512709

>>5512539
What happened was that many thought they could replicate what worked in 2D to 3D, to little success. The best example is Super Mario 64, the 2D Mario games were moving right to the end of the stage, at the time Nintendo knew that formula wasn't going to work for 3D, so they decided to make it much bigger to be able to explore. Super Mario 64 create its own blueprint for 3D instead of trying to borrow the 2D blueprint and trying to force it to work in 3D, like trying to fit a round peg in a square hole, that's why Super Mario 64 succeeded and others failed.

>> No.5512710

>>5512569
By being the best game of all time that no Zelda could top/l? I agree.

>> No.5512712

>>5512709
On the other hand you had Crash, which is literally just donkey kong country in 3D

>> No.5512716

>>5512712
Funny, I was playing Tropical Freeze the other day and thought "huh, this is a lot like Crash"

>> No.5512726

>>5512659
>bad review
>94% average score
hmm?

>> No.5512749

seems

>> No.5512762

>>5512658
I don’t follow animu, when did they switch to 3D?

>> No.5512774

>>5512762
I don't know exaclty when and it is kind of hard to define. In the past, even to the 90s, difficult to handdraw backgrounds (action scenes specifically) sometimes took advantage of 3D. It didn't look great but I would say it is forgivable because it is the background. But recently, a lot of animation studios forgo handdrawn animation entirely and simulate it with 3D software to massively cut costs. Sometimes it is actually passable and quite good looking but most of the time it is bad – it looks like a cell-shaded video game. The most famous case is probably the latest Berserker adaption which often looks completely lazy (think Jimmy Neutron bad).

>> No.5512927

>>5512539
Don't ever you post this nonsense webm ever again.

>> No.5513145

>>5512709
Who exactly is many is what I want to know.

>> No.5513161
File: 29 KB, 400x400, le epic onions face.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5513161

>>5512659
Nice bait from a dead games website.

https://web.archive.org/web/20050813011527/http://www.games.net/features/100761_2.shtml

Also, interestingly enough, the guy who wrote that now works for Sony as their Social Media Director (and he hates DRUMPF but that's neither here nor there on /vr/):
https://twitter.com/sidshuman

>> No.5513192

>>5512659
That's all correct.
3D platforming in general is shit.

>> No.5513267

>>5512539
>what game series did the 5th generation kill?
Sonic

>> No.5513273

>>5513192
Ok zoomer

>> No.5513278

>>5513267
The only good answer in this thread.

>> No.5513305

>>5513161
That still crazy it was ever on a real site. I would have thought it was some random blogger or some tard edited the text from what it really said.

>> No.5513317

>>5512659
This but unironically.

It's the worst "good" 3D platformer.

>> No.5513326

>>5512539
Because 3d is completely different to 2d. If you're going to make a 2d metroid game, you already have blueprints to work off of. Tried and tested formulae that you know are going to work. Even more so for a game like Mario. Imagine if they just tried to make a 2d Mario with all the obstacles etc. but swung the camera so it was 3D, that would be plain absurd.

With 3D being in an experimental phase there were bound to be a few howlers.

>> No.5513373

>>5513317
>>>/v/

>> No.5513439

>>5512658
3DCG is here to stay and inking by hand is dead. Deal with it.

>> No.5513449
File: 84 KB, 800x534, 1954-earthworm-jim-3d-nintendo-64-screenshots.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5513449

>>5512539
>Apart from some stinkers in series that were getting tired like Earthworm Jim

Earthworm Jim 3d was the first and still the only earthworm jim game that I've played. I genuinley enjoyed it.

Why is there so much hatred for it?

>> No.5513473

>>5513326
Super Paper Mario?

>> No.5513480
File: 428 KB, 1040x2280, AlttP.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5513480

>>5512568
>muh z targeting!

>> No.5513495

>>5512549
not a word

>> No.5513518

>>5512710
>ALttP
>Good

No. ALttP was boring as sin, and the mechanics were fucking dogshit. The sword swing was sloppy and indistinct, and everything you hit knocked you back a little bit. Worse, the game established the shitty overly structured gameplay (Enter dungeon, Find Item, Use Item to solve more puzzles, beat boss (usually with the Item.)) that would plague the series until ALBW, which by the way, is much better than its predecessor. Link's awakening was much better mechanically, on top of having a more interesting premise and setting.

>> No.5513543

>>5512539
For the record, I'm including series that survived, but only by eventually returning to 2D roots.
>Castlevania: only survived because of Igarashi and metroidvanias. Classicvanias totally died out, 3D never caught on.
>Contra: the series basically died because of the Playstation stinkers. Konami doesn't seem to remember it exists.
>Worms: 2D installments are cult classics, but series was almost killed by attempt at jumping to 3D. Series still exists, but only as 2D games.
>Broken Sword: if you're into adventure games you definitely heard of this iconic series, and the 3rd installment was really hated due to forced jump to 3d, with quirky controls. Series survived, but barely.
>Monkey Island - since we're talking adventure games, the 3D Escape from Monkey Island killed the series until Telltale made a revival/conclusion.
>Mortal Kombat: the series practically died after transition to 3D, only recently it was revived with 3D graphics but 2D gameplay.
>Sonic the Hedgehog - while not really dead, people almost universally agree that shift to 3D was a mistake.
>Earthworm Jim: Self-explanatory. Series is dead as disco.
>Bubsy: Same.
>Mega Man X: Nobody talks about X7. For a good reason.
>Bionic Commando: Nobody remembers that, but ReArmed was supposed to be just a small promotional game for the big 3D reboot. Ironically, more people now remember ReArmed series than the 3D game, and it was RA that got a sequel.
>Donkey Kong Country: Donkey Kong 64. Character-exclusive collectibles. Nuff said.
>Lemmings 3D: Killed the series.
>Stronghold: The 3D installment killed the series.

Honestly, the only series that really made a succesful switch to full 3D were: Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Ninja Gaiden, Prince of Persia and Rayman - and though 3D Raymans were good, series still reverted to 2D anyway. (And even Prince of Persia had "Prince of Persia 3D", but we don't talk about that.)

>> No.5513632

>>5513543
>Playstation stinkers
PS1 games sucked ass, but you gotta be kiddin' me by saying that PS2 Contra games are bad

I'll fight you if you do so

>> No.5513770

Saturn is SOUL

>> No.5513886

I swear if anyone shits on OoT one more time I'm done with this board

>> No.5513928

>>5513886
You won't be missed.

But as far as OoT goes I shit on it all the time it's really hard to credibly claim that OoT "killed" the franchise. Ocarina dumbed-down many aspects of the design and its fans often have shit taste in games overall, but it's impossible to argue that the Ocarina wasn't popular and didn't establish a formula that subsequent Zelda games followed for years to great success. Ocarina nailed a lot of important gameplay elements in spite of its flaws.

>> No.5513937

>>5512927
i know, it's so stupid it hurts

>> No.5513942

>>5513928
>Ocarina dumbed-down many aspects of the design
Huh? What the fuck are you talking about? Oh 2D dungeons are certainly more complex than the 3D ones, sure. If you want to be a contrarian faggot just go back to /v/ and stay there. /vr/ is not about that shit

>> No.5513943

>>5513770
more like a dud

>> No.5513958

>>5513943
>t. Sonydrone

>> No.5513964

>>5513958
I dont really take sides on this one. Build a time machine and go back to the 90s. Tell everyone that that the Saturn doesnt suck because of some assorted 2D games only released in Japan. It runs some arcade games well but it is by all means a dud

>> No.5513978

>>5513964
Imagine some fat disgusting nerd in the 90s coming to you and saying 'you are a pleb, Saturn has a god-tier game called Yu-No but you probably have never heard about it, go play your shitty movie Metal Gear game'

>> No.5513996

>>5513978
This makes me grateful this board never discovered time travel

>> No.5514043

>>5513942
So apparently you've never paid attention in a single one of the weekly threads where Ocarina's flaws are discussed at length. Sounds like you're the tourist.

>> No.5514049

>>5513439
No one has inked by hand since the late 80s which is why Xerox scanning was a thing

>> No.5514060

>>5514043
>flaws are discussed
You make it sound like there is fair intelligent discussion. What really happens is a dozen shitposters make 20 threads in a short period of time calling a terrible game with no real depth to their arguments. Same shit every day. Then they get reported for their spam and get really butthurt about their shitposts being deleted and they go on irrelevant rants about the janitors. The process is repeated the following week and sometimes they pretend they like zelda games to cherry pick screenshots and whine about remakes. Sorry its not Link to the Past 2, mate

>> No.5514068

>>5514043
>Ocarina's ''flaws'' are '''''''''''''discussed'''''''''''''
Not complaining though. It's considered the best game of all time so of course it will get shit on 4chan

>> No.5514106

>>5514043
>Ocarina's flaws are discussed at length
No discussion ever occurs in this bloody image board. This is how it goes

>point out mechanic is bad/pointless and the game is better with even removing it
>"brainlet hahaha brainlet get a load of this nigger u monkey kill urself"

That's... not really a discussion.

>> No.5514117

>>5514106
More like
>this game is popular so it's garbage
>yeah *insert lesser known installation of a franchise here that is objectively inferior* is way better
>yeah, patrician taste bro

>> No.5514425

Double Dragon.

I loved belt scrolling beat-em up genre.

Die Hard Arcade was the last one.

>> No.5514447

>>5512539
Yes, Saturn's 3d hardware rendered quads, but it could straight overlap 2 dots to make a perfect triangle.

>> No.5514651

3D killed Ultima hype hard.

It's obvious British was already done with the series and planned on ending it, but the development jump to 3D did not work well for 9 at all.

One of the most influential and critically acclaimed game series of all time ended with a game as buggy as Sonic 06, if not moreso.

>> No.5516814

>>5513495
that's your opinion

>> No.5516884

>>5512569
>>5513518
You. I like you.

>> No.5516909

>>5513518
>Enter dungeon, Find Item, Use Item to solve more puzzles, beat boss (usually with the Item.)
That's a lot older than LTTP

>> No.5516934

>>5512710
Fuck you, Link's Awakening is the best Zelda.

>> No.5516946

>>5512774
No, shit, I was semi-hyped for the Berserk reboot, and they fucked it up super hard. Those fucking character models.
The hand drawn Berserk from the 90s isn't definitively good in any respect, it's obvious at many points that they completely ran out of budget, they had to inject humor where it wasn't needed, and they fucked up the story by leaving a pivotal character out completely making the series end in a completely illogical fashion, but damn if that wasn't the greatest work of art by comparison with the new movies. I'd watch the 90s anime 1000 times before I'd force myself through the circumcision process that is those fucked up 3d animation abortions.
I also watched the 90s anime before I knew about the manga, so watching the whole thing was a double fuck you of confusion where I was like, "what? It was a flashback, he's fucked, how is this a flashback?". I'm still glad they made that one though, because even with all its problems it's still legitimately interesting to watch, and the animation doesn't make me want to scrape my eyes out with the cat's claws.

>> No.5516953

>>5513449
I've never played it, but you need to play the first two 2d games. Then you'll know why everyone hates your beloved 3d game, and you'll hate yourself for making this post.

>> No.5517235

>>5516946
>but damn if that wasn't the greatest work of art by comparison with the new movies.
The third Berserk movie is still the best Berserk adaptation to date

>> No.5517357
File: 348 KB, 1920x1200, u9_floating_house.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5517357

>>5514651
Ultima 9 was 10 years ahead of its time, unfortunately it had 10 years' worth of bugs and 10 years of hardware restrictions bogging it down. I remember reading a preview in a magazine saying it was going to have fixed-perspective pre-rendered backgrounds like FF7. I'm glad they went full 3D because I hate that walking-on-a-canvas feel.
But then it had to be full 3D, didn't it? Pretty much every Ultima taxed the limits of available hardware when they came out. Plus absolutely nobody wanted another Ultima 8 engine game. Then you factor in EA and you have a tragedy all around. I still enjoyed it anyway.

>> No.5517413

>>5512762

2004 Appleseed was the first real example of 3D anime I ever saw.

>> No.5517960

>>5514651
>>5517357
Ultima Underworld trailblazed 3D.

>> No.5517970
File: 33 KB, 504x432, boiga.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5517970

>>5513964
>>5513978

>> No.5518026

>there are people defending a link to the past and denying its bad influence in this thread.

>> No.5518036

>>5512659
Waaaaaaaaa
Waaaaaaaaaaaaa
WAAAAAA

>> No.5518142

>>5518026
Link's Awakening is the best Zelda.

>> No.5518240

>>5512539
Pokémon also died when it went in 3D altough this happened like 6 years ago and not 20 but that doesn't change that fact.

>> No.5518280

>>5512726
I think that's called having an opinion.

>> No.5518309

>>5518240
What do you mean? its still huge even today. Did you mean digimon?

>> No.5518327

>>5512539
Creating a great game is very difficult, most games are very average. A few games achieved greatness in 2D and that formula worked. That formula, which was great, ceased to exist in the transition to 3D, and a new formula was created for these games. There is no guarantee just because a game's formula was good in 2D, or because the company made a good 2D game, that the 3D version will be great. It's a completely different way of interacting with the game world. It's not surprising that lightning didn't strike twice and the 3D games they made usually wound up being very generic and average with a familiar coat of paint. There was also a difference in philosophy as the industry became more commercial and mainstream, a shift away from trying to make a game that is fun for the sake of being fun towards making a game that was accessible to the highest number of people (i.e. people who don't play video games,) casualizing and dumbing down these IPs to the point where the game world itself offers you almost no resistance, and the difference between playing it and watching somebody else play was almost nothing more than a formality.

>> No.5518341

>>5513273
That's the opposite of a zoomer opinion, retard. 3D platforming is usually done very poorly. Games like Tomb Raider did a good job bringing elements that mad 2D platforming an experience into 3D (timing, measuring jumps, measuring lift off and landing points, using certain types of platforms to perform certain actions that allow for progression), most of the 3D games never incorporated anything like that and they were just floaty "press jump whenever and wherever to win" nonsense with the only challenge coming from awkward camera angles at inopportune times.

>> No.5518351

>>5518341
>That's the opposite of a zoomer opinion
Fucking objectively false.
Every single zoomer heard their eceleb overlord shit on 3D platforming as a whole when Yooka Laylee came out and they've all hated them ever since.

>> No.5518628

>>5513543
Hi, it's me, the one person that adores Worms 3D.
The 2D ones are 'better' but 3D had a certain jank that made it super entertaining to me.

>> No.5518718

>>5513543
>Worms: 2D installments are cult classics, but series was almost killed by attempt at jumping to 3D. Series still exists, but only as 2D games.
I'd say Hogs of War was a better 3D Worms than the actual 3D Worms games, and ironically enough it came before Team 17 attempted to make Worms 3D (Literally by 3 years).

>> No.5518742

>>5513978
saturn version of yu-no is shit

>> No.5518746

>>5513518
Based contrarian retard

>> No.5518774

>>5514651
BETRAYAL!