Which character should I take?

[Anonymous No.5272465]

So I'm going to start a new game of BG2 soon. Main character will be a multiclass mage/thief (yes I know dual class thief-->mage is probably more powerful but I enjoy multiclass more, especially when HLAs become available). Planning to limit the party size to four as follows:
- main character
- jaheira
- aerie
- ???

??? is where I'm looking for advice. I'm thinking it should be a good fighter to balance out the party, but I'm open to any suggestions. However, I have played with keldorn and korgan far too often and minsc annoys me so I don't want these characters.

Mazzy or Valygar seem like good options, as both are good melee fighters and I haven't played with them much. What does /vr/ think of these two and do you have any suggestions on how to get the most out of them? Doesn't have to be one of these two though.

Btw, before somebody says "hey faggot, there are other BG2 threads already" - I know, but I felt a new thread was justified because:
1. BG2 is incontestably the greatest rpg ever and deserves more threads.
2. It gives some lucky anon another opportunity to post the beamdog pasta.

[Anonymous No.5272516]

Mazzy's pretty amazing, she has a bunch of innates that are useful. Valygar is kinda white bread but he does have katana mastery if you wanna use Celestial Fury without speccing into katanas yourself.

[Anonymous No.5272519]

Beamdog is a guilty of a number of different crimes. Here are the major ones.

1. The Enhanced Editions are essentially a collection of free mods that had existed for nearly twenty years. Beamdog gathered them all up, slapped "Enhanced Edition" on it and resold it as a new product. There's very very little in the Enhanced Editions that wasn't already out there, and most of it is stuff you don't want (like obnoxious character outlines).

2. The games didn't sell so well and the originals were still far outselling them, even twenty years after their release, so Beamdog had EVERY digital distributor stop selling the originals and ONLY sell the Enhanced Edition. If you want to buy a digital copy of the originals now, they're "bundled" into the Enhanced Edition. Now these scumbags can claim sales from people just wanting to buy the originals as their own.

3. The infamous 600+ bugs on launch. The game is still riddled with bugs (as even a perfunctory glance over their forums show) but the fact that it took nearly two years for them to get a game that had been working fine for 20 years to reach playability after launch is telling of their wild incompetence.

4. This is where we get to the ones that really piss people off. Beamdog couldn't just remaster the game, they had to fuck with the content too. New dialogue for existing NPCs like Jaheira, Viconia, Safana, Kivan, et cetera was written in to make the characters more progressive and leftist friendly. Beamdog shills will argue that "adding content isn't changing content XDDD" but it is when the new content changes the core personalities of the existing characters. This is in addition to adding a slew of their own LGBT (hitherto there were none in Baldur's Gate) NPCs, all flooded with OP attributes and magic items to encourage people to play them despite their cancer.

5. Siege of motherfucking Dragonspear.

[Anonymous No.5272780]

>>5272519
Nice pasta.

[Anonymous No.5272839]

>playing game for first time years ago
>pick up Aerie
>c/m? fuck yeah designated caster, decent stats too
>kath soucie? muh dick
>10 minutes later, already sick of her whining
>laugh as korgan bullies the shit out of her

[Anonymous No.5272840]

>>5272839
Remember the Aerie romance where you can have a literal child in your inventory

[Anonymous No.5272910]

>>5272840
Kek, didn't know about this. Will definitely try the Aerie romance when I play

[Anonymous No.5272915]

>>5272840
*sigh* into the bag of holding it goes.

[Anonymous No.5272952]

>>5272910
>AERIEBAB.itm

[Anonymous No.5273010]

>>5272952
aerie's baby
charname's? maybe

>>5272910
mod it into a melee weapon

[Anonymous No.5273041]

>>5272465
HEYA

[Anonymous No.5273143]

Mazzy is good, bows are fun. Valygar sucks absolute dick imo, if you really want that celestial fury, dual Yoshimo into a fighter and imprison him in Watcher's Keep or something to keep him. Or use it yourself with belm/kundane. Haer Dalis can be a fun choice, less dps than a fighter but more versatile. Jan is also a good option, because mage/thief are fun and 2 is better than 1 (or just steal his armor when you reach use any item).
Also mage/thief multi is indeed more fun than dual, for a dual might as well go with fighter, there is almost no real advantage in having only a few thief level as a mage, no hp, no thac0, can maybe hide in shadows and use a few weapons with one proficiency point, meh really. But getting use any item, now that's fucking useful.

[Anonymous No.5274426]

Jan Jansen for trolling your other party members.

[Anonymous No.5274736]

>>5272465
Mazzy is great with shortbows. She has 18 dex and starts with grand mastery in them. With the tugian bow, she has an insane attack rate (6 attacks per round I believe). Her low strength means she won't hit very hard in melee combat without buffs but belts of strength aren't too hard to come by and she's pretty damn tanky.
I don't have any experience with Valygar but his inability to wear heavy armour makes me think he's not well suited to being the main warrior in the party.

[Anonymous No.5274837]

>>5274736
she gets 5 apr, 6 hasted, 10 with improved haste

[Anonymous No.5275195]

Hmmmmm... there are a few comments saying Jan is fun to play with. Truth be told, I haven't used him much, so this might be a good idea. However, I don't think I want to have two multiclass mage/thiefs in the party, so perhaps the main character needs a rethink.

Also, there doesn't seem to be any enthusiasm for Valygar, and Mazzy seems to be a poor man's archer, albeit with some nice quirks. Getting to her is also a bit of a drag...

Considering the above, I think the following might make for a better 4-person party:
- Main: ARCHER, or FIGHTER/THIEF (multiclass).
- Aerie (romance for the baby).
- Jaheira
- Jan

The archer option sounds similar to what Mazzy would offer, but better. Fighter/thief is an interesting multiclass option which I haven't played yet but would like to (epic backstabbing potential).

My only concern with the above is whether Aerie/Jan will provide good enough mage spellcasting, e.g. can these two ever cast 9th level spells? Are 9th level spells even that big a deal? Maybe I could switch out Jan for Imoen at a later stage.

[Anonymous No.5275201]

>>5275195
Jan doesn't really play like a mage/thief. He plays like a mage that can open locks and detect traps. His stats are way too low to go anywhere near an enemy.

[Anonymous No.5275534]

Mazzy is an absolute star. She already has four or five proficiency points in short bows, give her Tansheron's Bow +3, which you can buy very early, and it's like having a machine gunner in the back. Then later you can give her Short Bow of Gesen for even greater carnage and mage interruptions. I have no idea why people would think she's a "poor man's archer" because as a fighter she gets five proficiency points. In my games she just racks up kills.

You can also equip her with whatever melee weapon you like. In one game I had her with two short swords, maybe poor choice but it didn't matter, she absolutely tore through enemies. She was a little tornado of destruction. The "hurr only 15 strenght" is idiotic because by the time you reach her you should have at least a couple of strength enhancing belts/bracers. All that plus shorty saves and very useful innate abilities make her at least the equivalent of Korgan.

All that plus the sexy, soothing voice of Jennifer Hale, and you just can't go wrong.

[Anonymous No.5275695]

>>5275201
Girdle or potions of strength to improve his thac0 and he can do insane amounts of damage with the right build and gear (8apr assassination at 0 thac0 under improved haste, high ac with potions of defense, blur, his gear naturally reduces the damage he takes, stoneskin, mirror image, pfmw should all else fail, etc. all of these make stats irrelevant). A mid level mage can protect himself against anything and he should, that's how you play without reloading every 10 seconds ; low hp isn't a problem if you don't lose hp at all

[Anonymous No.5275720]

>>5275195
Yeah they can cast level 9 spells, it just obviously takes longer than single class mages, they need around 6 million xp.
Mage/thief multi class have an insane late game compared to mage thief dual like imoen, which are basically just mages by this point, because use any item. There are quite a few items that give spell slots (ring of acuity, 2 rings of wizardry, that katana in the edventurer mart, that ring of acuity for priests, holy symbols, etc.) and Jan is a specialist mage so he naturally has more spells, illusionist/thief and illusionist/fighter gnomes are among the best multiclass in the game.
A pure class Archer isn't that interesting to play compared to a Mage/Thief honestly, and he won't have that much of an edge with a bow compared to a fighter with the same proficiency ; so mazzy is a good choice if you want an archer, she'll have max apr with tuigan bow (not tansheron though).

[Anonymous No.5275991]

Thanks for all the advice anons. It seems there is a lot of love for Jan and Mazzy, so who am I to disagree. Tbh, the primary purpose of this upcoming game is to try characters I haven't used much and Jan and Mazzy both fit the bill perfectly, so I'll try to include them.

So, the revised party I'm likely to go ahead with now is:
- Main character: multiclass cleric/ranger. I haven't played this class yet and have heard it's very powerful, so I'm curious to try it. This class also appears to be an excellent substitute for Jaheira (who has been removed).
- Jan, will get him asap after escaping Irenicus' dungeon.
- Aerie, will romance her in an attempt to get the "baby".
- Mazzy, will make an effort to head for the Umar Hills asap, although I usually leave this quest for much later (hate those level draining shadows).

I did originally want to include Jaheira because she is one of my favourite characters and I wanted to try her romance plot. However, I've used her several times in the past and I'm now going to attempt the Aerie romance instead (thanks to the anon above for pointing out the baby).

The party above lets me play a multiclass option I haven't tried as well as three characters I've not used much, so I think it should be fun. I can always try a mage/thief or fighter/thief game later (love the replay value of this game).

[Anonymous No.5276013]

>>5275991
Jan can also completely empty any store with one increase in pickpockets to 85 (with his gloves on) and 3 potions of master thievery (225 pickpocket skill total).
If you don't mind mods, SCS is of course a lot of fun if you already know your way around the base mechanics of the game and 1ppv4, in addition to adding great graphics to spells, adds a few fun items into the game that are actually already in the game (you can console them into your inventory without the mod but they are nowhere to be found in any container or npc inventory in vanilla).
Amond these will be a certain shield that might be very good for your ranger/cleric if he meets certain other requirements and absolutely disgustingly broken if you figure out how to equip it with a mage/thief without killing him instantly. Great fun.

[Anonymous No.5276018]

>>5276013
meant 85 in pickpocket WITHOUT his gloves on*

[Anonymous No.5276041]

>>5275991
>although I usually leave this quest for much later (hate those level draining shadows).
scout ahead with invisibility or wizard eye scrolls, use aerie for negative plane protection, get the tuigan bow early to give it to mazzy as soon as you meet her, get her under improved haste as often as posssible, steal a pile of restoration scrolls, you'll be fine

[Anonymous No.5276076]

>>5272519
It's all true.

All of it.

[Anonymous No.5276078]

>>5276013
>SCS

I would also recommend BGSpawn in addition to this.

Basically, it semi-randomly generates each non-plot "mob" based on the area's theme and your party's level/size. It makes every encounter a lot more interesting, and you wind up seeing a lot more shit that you normally wouldn't. With a fully party, the game starts sending monster parties at you (e.g. early game hobgoblin party: two elites, one fighter, two archers, and a shaman).

Makes replays a lot more fun.

[Anonymous No.5276081]

>>5276078
>BGSpawn
haven't tried it but isn't it for BG1 with BGT only?

[Anonymous No.5276104]

>>5275991
Jan is the only good thief in Baldur's Gate 2, so he's kind of a no brainer most of the time. Even if the player is a thief, having two thieves lets you specialize.

[Anonymous No.5276115]

Buy Beamdog.

It's just better.

[Anonymous No.5276179]

>>5275201
Yes, yes, a standard tactic, that.

[Anonymous No.5276198]

planescape is better hurr durr

[Anonymous No.5276220]

In defense of Valygar, he's a competent melee martial and he can open a fight with a bursty backstab (up to x4, and he doesn't suffer from all the regular Thief shittiness) before he proceeds to slashing. At HLA levels, he's a delight. I never had problems with him. He is weak in terms of Armor Class, but he's a very good designated wearer of Aeger's Skin. He's not primary main tank material, but we all know the best "tank" is a mage or summons. Stalkers are a fun kit to play with because the few bonus spells are flavorful and quite useful. He doesn't "suck dick" at all, none of the original BG2 NPCs really do, they all have really useful and powerful niches they fulfill.

[Anonymous No.5276228]

>>5276104
On the other hand many players go by without a thief at all, because their role is replacable. Even Nalia can do the most basic thieving stuff like disarming traps and opening locks with some help, and Thief-based tactics often are mostly firmly in the "fun and quirky to use" rather than "super effective". HLA traps are great and cheesy as fuck, but the overall Thief gameplay loop of backstabbing and all that takes a lot of micro for a task you can apply elsewhere. The amount of thieves you ever really want in a party depends on how much you enjoy their playstyle and whether you're willing to use other means to substitute opening and disarming (bashing locks with 25 Strength and using summons and whatever to trip traps is viable).

[Anonymous No.5276280]

>>5276220
his "problem" (and why he "sucks dicks" imo) is that he has all the flaws of his kit, which is less good than either a fighter, a thief or a fighter/thief and less fun to play than any of those.
Also I have to disagree, although micro-intensive, a thief is at the very least competitive with a pure class fighter, and mage/thief is a very viable class that can be a complete alternative to having any sort of fighter, dual, multi or single class in the team.
I would join a screenshot of Jan at -18 AC, 24 STR and 8 APR with -5 THAC0 main hand / -1 offhand but for whatever reason 4chan won't let me post it. It's a slightly less optimal dps than a fighter on paper, who will have a better thac0 and better weapons to wield. However, if you add backstabbing and even better, assassination, it leads to rounds where his damage output is way higher than that of a fighter under whirlwind.

[Anonymous No.5276301]

>>5276280
>Also I have to disagree, although micro-intensive, a thief is at the very least competitive with a pure class fighter,
Hmmm, no, I can't say I agree.
The main reason you'd want a pure class fighter is because they specialize in dealing on-demand, no-nonsense, no preparation massive damage whenever you ask them to.
Thieves, while very resourceful with UAI and similar tools, can merely emulate this feature of the fighter.
Jan may very well have all the impressive stats you posted. A Fighter will have access to those much earlier in the game, without, presumably, hogging APR weapons (which are low on the enchantment end and fairly restricted aside from SNT's excellent poison ability... well, except SNT cannot backstab because it's coded weirdly, as it's not a "native" thief weapon), and while wielding much higher enchanted weapons with great on-hit abilities.

Someone here mentioned Celestial Fury and, well, Valygar is going to become a valid bearer of the weapon from the moment you retrieve it. Jan won't without sacrificing APR or running into other issues. And CF, with its on-hit abilities, definitely emphasizes the kind of fighter that can spin into a multiattack machine fast.
Val is mostly your regular melee fighter with some nice minor utility. As I generally enjoy rangers (I flirt around with randomizers and try to low-reload, so I actually do scout ahead), I enjoy that utility quite a lot.

[Anonymous No.5276346]

>>5276301
well valygar isn't really an optimal bearer of the CF either since he can't get grandmastery and can't be at 10 APR (so 8 made with the CF) either, except under whirlwind. He will only do slightly better in melee than an optimized Jan. These stats are relatively "standard" for melee tanks to get regularly by mid BG2, when potions of strenght, invulnerability or defense and mind focusing are pretty easy to come by, the "right" gear (ring of protection and ring of gaxx for AC, etc.) and your average set of protection spells. 8APR is indeed with belm/kundane/snt but you can reach 7 with the CF, one of the aforementioned and the gauntlets of thac0 in watcher's keep (but can't backstab with the CF and any of these either as m/t or ranger because speed factor).
So in the end, valygar will only have a marginally better dps than Jan without micro, and an inferior one with micro.
Without even taking into account that Jan can also dispel, protect himself and tank better than any ranger can by the last third of BG2, generate damage from spells, raid stores and pockets, etc.
All around yes, thieves don't have the optimal dps of a fighter (but at the same time, if they did, fighters would be out of a job) but they are more versatile and a mage/thief can be pretty much as viable in melee as a fighter or a gish while having additional utilities.

[Anonymous No.5276410]

>>5276346
>can't be at 10 APR (so 8 made with the CF) either, except under whirlwind
Improved Haste? Belm / Kundane in the off-hand? Your Jan example relies on all of these, doesn't it?
>He will only do slightly better in melee than an optimized Jan
At which point in the game? Certainly not directly after acquisition, and throughout the entire game he still beats Jan without prep.
>can't backstab with the CF
Backstabbing weapons are all weapons usable by Thieves by default, without UAI. SNT isn't a Thief weapon by default, so it can't backstab. Since CF is a Katana, which is a regular Thief weapon, why would it be incapable of backstabbing, as I'm pretty sure it does backstab? I wasn't aware Speed Factor had anything to do with this?
>Without even taking into account that Jan can also dispel, protect himself and tank better than any ranger can by the last third of BG2
Well, of course, spellcasters are the best tanks in the game. Valygar isn't argued here as a tank, but as an on-demand physical damage dealer, which the fighter-types are much, much more suited to than to "tanking"; only stuff like a Barbarian off-handing Defender of Easthaven with HLA support comes anywhere in the vicinity.

[Anonymous No.5276428]

>>5276410
>Improved Haste? Belm / Kundane in the off-hand? Your Jan example relies on all of these, doesn't it?
he will reach 8 under improved haste with belm or kundane, and probably 9 with the gauntlets, no? He can only reach 10 with it under whirlwind if i'm not mistaken. I don't have a save with him on hand to check.
But compared to 7 and the ability to cast spells and complete thieving abilities, i'd say it's quite a low price to pay.
You can of course backstab with the CF, but you can't backstab with it if you wield both the CF and belm or kundane. Both of these have a speed factor of 0, CF has a speed factor of 1, in case of dual wielding, backstab attacks are made with the weapon with the lowest speed factor. In this case, belm or kundane and not the CF.

[Anonymous No.5276464]

>>5276428
>he will reach 8 under improved haste with belm or kundane, and probably 9 with the gauntlets, no?
1 base attack
0,5 from level 7 in a Warrior-type class
0,5 from level 13 in a Warrior-type class
0,5 from weapon specialization
+1 from dual-wielding
+1 from using a Speed weapon
+0,5 from Gauntlets
= 5
Even with Gauntlets not in play (they come in very, very late), Val can reach 9/2 attacks per round with IH, the moment IH comes online (presumably after you've already looted a speed weapon).
>Both of these have a speed factor of 0, CF has a speed factor of 1, in case of dual wielding, backstab attacks are made with the weapon with the lowest speed factor. In this case, belm or kundane and not the CF.
Wow, I actually did not know this is the case. I can probably still settle for a Belm or Kundane backstab to initiate a fight, but damn.

[Anonymous No.5276468]

>>5276464
>9/2 attacks
9, of course.

[Anonymous No.5276476]

>>5276464
oh yeah forgot the 0,5 from specialization, my bad.
But yeah overall mage/thief is an efficient multi purpose class that can be competitive in that role as on demand physical damage dealer, although it requires a more expensive and complex gear and more micro to be as effective. It is an amazing class and one of the very best choices to take along in a small party setting.
The ranger is a way poorer choice in that situation but he can easily find a spot in 6 member party. Just don't take a character along only for a few more attacks with the Celestial Fury when you're limiting yourself to 4, it's not worth it.

[Anonymous No.5276490]

>>5276464
>still settle for a Belm or Kundane backstab to initiate a fight, but damn.
I don't remember if you can backstab under whirlwind but if you can, unequip your offhand at the start, you'll have 10 APR for one round purely with the CF (whereas improved haste or whirlwind with the offhand will still give 2 of these attacks to belm/kundane) and technically an opening with a backstab

[Anonymous No.5276503]

>>5272465
Is that Vin Diesel?

[Anonymous No.5276693]

>>5276503
A lot of BG2's portraits were traced over celebrity photos. Also Keldorn is that one guy from the Sopranos, you know the one.

Viconia's portrait is even traced from some 80s topless model.

[Anonymous No.5276751]

I've noticed that in every thread discussing characters in BG2 it always comes down to how awesome they are right before the final boss of Throne of Bhaal. It doesn't matter if they're quadriplegics all the way through Akathla and the Underdark... once you hit level 23 and acquire Blackrazor, OMG BEST NPC EVAR. Same for those idiots dualing kensais to mages at level 13 for that extra half attack or whatever. Maximum autism.

Mazzy is the best archer right out of the gate with her 5 pips in shortbows. Put easily aquired weapons like Tuigan's bow (for that extra attack) or Tensheron (+3 and requires no ammo) and you have already someone who is incredible from day 1 all the way through ToB with the Gesen Bow. And she has no armor restrictions. And comes with innate haste and other goodies.

Also, letting Jan tank just feels all sorts of wrong. Stop it.

[Anonymous No.5276786]

>>5276751
In a party of 4, like this thread is about, you reach HLA in the underdark easily, probably even before if you minmax xp. Most of what has been discussed itt is perfectly doable without HLAs (except what explicitely requires Use Any Item), all the key items involved are available in chapter 2.
Making Mage/thief good doesn't require millions of xp if you vaguely know what you're doing and there are lots of other tactics more suited for the early game when you don't have these items yet, it's not like the arcane spell book was lacking in options.
Talk about autism... My ass. I'll tank with Jan and Aerie at 300000 xp if I want to and you can do fuck all about it.

[Anonymous No.5276932]

>>5276693
picrel.

[Anonymous No.5277034]

>>5276932
Now let's see her tits.

[Anonymous No.5278172]

Ser Chad awakens! So the game begins and I've just escaped the first dungeon. Will aim to pick up Aerie and Jan shortly and then Mazzy a bit later (when I have the courage to face the shadows). Rolled a 97 after a few mins during the character generation, which seemed too ridiculously good to pass up, even if I didn't get the most awesome strength score possible.

Btw, I had no idea Jan was regarded as such a powerful character. Always assumed he was some annoying little fag that was created just to give evil parties a passable thief option. Really looking forward to trying him out properly and attempting to get the best out of him. This should be fun.

[Anonymous No.5278212]

is it worth romancing Jaheira?

[Anonymous No.5278250]

>>5278172
If you're playing EE you'll need to discard like half the advice given in this thread, they fucked with the mechanics.

>>5278212
Not really, it's also bugged without patches

[Anonymous No.5278259]

Best characters are the one with versatility. Minsc can be 4 classes: tank, archer, scout and melee DPS. He is an absolute must. Anomen comes second, make him a tank, healer or a dual wielding maniac.

As for casters, Nalia and Imoen are your secondary mages with average thieving skills. Nalia needs potions. Jan lacks Necromancy spells but he can do traps. Edwin is overpowered that he is broken in a way. Aerie is good but annoying.

Jaheira or Cernd for Insect Plague and elemental summons.

Haer Dalis is the best "6th" party member. He can be a tank to some of the boss battles which require protection from magical weapons or total immunity. He has Defensive Spin which also helps some tight spots.

[Anonymous No.5278267]

>>5277034
Zdeňka Podkapová

You're welcome anon

[Anonymous No.5278390]

>>5278259
>minsc
>absolute must
Please leave this thread and don't come back.

[Anonymous No.5278425]

>>5278172
Don't forget about his bruiser mates. They are very helpful early on against tight packs of enemies. You have to manually create a couple ever day.

[Anonymous No.5278435]

>>5278267

I unironically thought that's Gwen Stefani.

[Anonymous No.5278584]

>>5278259
Minsc is terrible, terrible tank, terrible DPS, terrible Archer. Honestly I'd take a wizard eye scroll over him anyday, because at least the wizard eye doesn't cost xp to scout.
Nalia and Imoen suck but they are still mages so they are automatically better than anyone not mage. Edwin is great but not really OP either, he has a lot of spell slots but he can't do anything more than any other mage either, Jan and Aerie have more crazy options.
Lastly, Aerie a cute and an absolute beast, 10/10 multiclass, would deflower, impregnate and break the game with again.

[Anonymous No.5278681]

>>5278212
Very long and involved romance chain with tons of sidequests. It is bugged as >>5278250 says, but if there's no excuse for not having BG2Fixpacks and whatnot already installed in Current Year. Jaheira's romance is decent, aside from the whole weird hangup around her being your aunt.

[Anonymous No.5278710]

>>5278584
>Minsc is terrible, terrible tank, terrible DPS, terrible Archer
I think the main idea around picking Minsc is that he's capable of doing multiple jobs somewhat adequately, because he has a lot of pips spread across multiple proficiencies.

I wouldn't say he's an "absolute must" to pick at all and he CERTAINLY is not optimal, but I don't think he's utterly dysfunctional or downright terrible. He just works. He is easily available and can be versatile in terms of weapon choices.

What I disagree with the most is the notion that Edwin is overpowered. I never really bought the argument that his necklace with bonus spellsots is that amazing in a game that doesn't punish constant resting, and the PC spellcaster can be a Sorcerer, dual or multi, all of which are superior to Edwin.

[Anonymous No.5278787]

>>5278710
Nah man, he is useless at everything, he can't take a punch without dying, he doesn't have any abilities, just pick Korgan or Mazzy unless you really enjoy his dialogue. He can fill up a spot in core rules (he is there, will do some damage, soak up some spells and die) and be an expensive meatshield in any other kind of difficulty setting, because summons do that shit for free. If you get nobody in his spot you'll get more xp, which is unironically more valuable than having him on the team.
Also you can't dual or multi class sorcerers, not even with shadow keeper. Not that they'd need it to be more broken than Edwin, if built correctly.

[Anonymous No.5278885]

>>5278787
>Also you can't dual or multi class sorcerers, not even with shadow keeper
Yeah I meant a dual mage, multi mage or a Sorcerer.
>and be an expensive meatshield in any other kind of difficulty setting, because summons do that shit for free. If you get nobody in his spot you'll get more xp, which is unironically more valuable than having him on the team.
I mean, I've been able to do decently with him on SCS-Insane, but I get what you mean.

[Anonymous No.5278956]

>>5278885
Of course you can finish anything with any team, but chances are that team wouldn't be worse off if minsc wasn't in it.

[Anonymous No.5279125]

>>5278956
Yeah, I'm mostly a "glass half full" kinda guy, so I tend to pick companions and see what I can do with them rather than the opposite. Since on Insane melee non-caster fighters take quite a beating anyway and you're better off not letting them get hit. When I have Minsc, I tend to use all of my martials as glass cannon DPS that are used to dismantle unbuffed enemies rather than pure "tanks" in a sense.

And, well, he actually is one of the few Warriors that can actually increase their damage reduction through Armor of Faith. Couple that with DoE (since he already has Maces), he's not that awful at tanking thanks to this.

I mean, of course Korgan, Mazzy et al. are much better, but I think Minsc is alright. But then again, I think all NPCs can prove their worth somehow. I have a personal bias against Rasaad because him and the entire Monk class sucks arse, but I also uninstalled the EE 3 years ago and haven't looked back.

[Anonymous No.5279161]

>>5279125
Also there's one more thing I like to do with Minsc:
his early weapon proficiencies include Axes, and there's a terrific set of axes available from the get-go in Copper Coronet, one of which is only for non-Evil characters (so Korgan misses out).

Overall, with Lilarcor (for immunities) and the two axes I think his early game is not bad. He doesn't scale as well as the other Warriors but he's just not as pathetic as some posts make him out to be.

[Anonymous No.5279195]

>>5275991
>Main character: multiclass cleric/ranger. I haven't played this class yet and have heard it's very powerful, so I'm curious to try it
Haha, you will only get lvl3 druid spells. Too bad for you the old bug was fixed.

[Anonymous No.5279214]

>>5279195
Only in EE.

[Anonymous No.5279217]

>>5279214
And he's playing EE.

[Anonymous No.5279221]

>>5279125
>>5279161
Of course no character is strictly awful, I'm exaggerating the trait a bit with the xp thing, but still, I don't really think pure class rangers can bring anything more valuable to the table than a 15% xp increase by their absence. Pretty much like monks, although monks can actually be completely broken late game apparently.
Yeah he can wield Azuredge, which is decent early on, but the early areas with undeads aren't that tough either, and it's pretty much worthless against liches who all have low hp and PFMW.
Non-arcane tanks aren't really useful with scs honestly, the best one is unironically Viconia, you can fix her shit CON and STR relatively early on and most importantly she can get 85 to 95 magic resistance before the end of chapter 2 (with a bit of pickpocket trickery for a certain ring) and an insane AC easily ; she can get single class high effect levelling Armor of Faith combined with the Defender of Easthaven and other priest buffs, so she can stay completely untouched in the front for quite a while. Her very high MR is really handy to properly tank in SCS.

[Anonymous No.5279295]

>>5279221
>Pretty much like monks, although monks can actually be completely broken late game apparently.
Their rumoured late-game edge is honestly replacable by any fighter wearing any decent items (which you also should have in the end-game), and you don't have to lug an useless character with dumb combat animations to get there.

[Anonymous No.5279535]

>>5279295
>useless

but she has mejik

[Anonymous No.5279540]

>>5279535
Who? Monk? Who are you referring to?
"She"? Come to think of it, pretty much all the female NPCs are fairly high-tier.

[Anonymous No.5279548]

>>5279540
my bad, i misread and thought you were calling viconia useless

[Anonymous No.5279572]

>>5279540
All the high tier NPCs are also non human except Keldorn. Interesting

[Anonymous No.5279701]

>>5279572
Edwin and Cernd are human and they are definitely high tier.

[Anonymous No.5279709]

>>5279572
>>5279701
Also Anomen is generally pretty good. And Sarevok.

[Anonymous No.5279725]

>>5279709
Sarevok is definitely high tier, great stats, his deathbringer ability, can dual to thief and mage if you're masochistic enough to do it. Anomen, it's debatable, he isn't a great fighter type and he isn't a great priest either, from a pure metagame point of view I'd take Viconia, her magic resistance and her 18 WIS and 19 DEX over him and his 7 fighter levels and 12-16 WIS honestly.

[Anonymous No.5279742]

>>5279725
>he isn't a great fighter type
Achieves a +1/2 APR breakpoint (level 7) and can get Grandmastery in blunt weapons. Blunt weapons main flaw is that they don't feature any +1 APR weapons so he is fairly DPR capped compared to many characters, but Anomen can still dual-wield pretty handsomely.
>he isn't a great priest
His lowish Wisdom (even after his knighting) is constantly paraded as the reason he is "a bad cleric" but this genuinely amounts to a handful of spell slots up to level 4, which is utterly inconsequential, it doesn't prevent him from casting anything either, he doesn't lose any of the actually important slots. With his high Strength and other physical stats he doesn't need to fix his Strength in any way before he goes on to stack the DUHMs. He definitely makes a much better damage dealer than Viconia right off the bat, though over time she generally makes a much better damage soak for sure.
Of all the BG2 NPCs, he is the fastest advancing Good Cleric, which means he can also use Holy Smite, which is a really solid, party-friendly nuke, especially useful with all the vampires in early chapters, but remains relevant throughout.
I think Anomen is solid, although I would debate if we should even put any of the Clerics sans Aerie in a high tier simply because advancing primarily in Cleric is one of the least impressive things to be in this game.

[Anonymous No.5279780]

>>5279742
Oh yeah I know he's perfectly viable and not that hard to turn into an efficient damage dealer/tank, but I think he's not high tier.
His stats are not optimal for his role, wisdom is the only useful stat you can't fix in BG2, and his kit is good but not amazing, fighter/cleric is somewhat redundant and in my opinion, less useful than a pure class cleric with 18 WIS.
He is a better damage dealer than Viconia, sure, but he both has less spells and is less tanky because no natural MR. His DPS is also nothing stellar, better if playing with true grandmastery rule, but even then I would say that Viconia is often more efficient both in combat and in support. Which makes him miss the "high tier" niche of companions that are plainly the best for their role. And Anomen is in competition for that with both Viconia but also Jaheira, who is both a better fighter and has access to very interesting druid spells.

[Anonymous No.5279796]

>>5279742
Also smite depends on the party you get, but I usually roll evil and take at least korgan and edwin so it's pretty much never used. Its damage is not that great anyway, these level 3 priest spelll slots are better used to create an army of 100MR skeleton warriors.
But overall I'd put probably put Viconia in high tier because 65 magic resistance is huge and can reach 100, added to a complete high tier cleric spell book, a high dex and fixable STR and CON (not much else to use that girdle slot, intertial barrier will be wasted on Viconia anyway). And if druids are considered, both Jaheira and Cernd are high tier or as close to it as possible too.

[Anonymous No.5279821]

>>5279780
>He is a better damage dealer than Viconia, sure, but he both has less spells
Let me reiterate that:
Compared to Viconia, a Lawful Good Sir Anomen (with 16 Wisdom) loses a single 3rd level spellslot and a single 4th level spellslot. If you give Viconia the Lum Machine boost or whatever else is there, she now has two 4th level spellslots over Anomen.

Regular, pre-knighthood Anomen also loses two level 1 and level 2 spellslots compared to Viconia or his "new and improved" self.

I really don't think this is a lot.
>is less tanky
Seven levels of Fighter (thus more HP), the ability to wear plate easily from the start (without fixing Strength) and so on means that this point is debatable at certain moments in the game.
>Jaheira, who is both a better fighter and has access to very interesting druid spells.
Jaheira is great, but I'm worried about the fact that a Druid multiclass gets horribly shafted by the ginormous XP pit between Druid levels 14 and 15, and she's advancing in both classes at the same time, severely hampering her spellcasting progression as a result. She IS the ultimate late-game priest bruiser, but it takes her a long time to get there. It doesn't help that Druid spells in the very early levels are hot garbage, and although Insect Plague, Ironskins, Nature's Beauty and all the elementals absolutely make the class, Anomen still has an advantage here and there.
>>5279796
>Its damage is not that great anyway
It's 1d4 per level of the caster. That's not so non-trivial, considering its other boosts. Hell, it can even blind sometimes. The damage adds up. There's a cap on available Animate Dead summons, so you might as well spam the party-friendly nuke.

Well, unless of course you're evil, but then there's not much of a point of Anomen in such a party anyway.

[Anonymous No.5279825]

>>5279701
Cernd....is good? This entire time I've looked at his shapeshifting kit and thought of him as little more than an early game powerhouse who gets totally outclassed post Underdark

[Anonymous No.5279842]

>>5279825
>I've looked at his shapeshifting kit
This is the problem.
Cernd's terrible stats sans Wisdom and objectively the worst kit has overshadowed the fact that the Druid class itself has some of the most amazing late-game spells in the game.
Insect Plague is so ridiculously strong it gets a component in SCS to nerf it (Fire Shield is now supposed to take it off, to simulate insects burning off) - it completely shuts down spellcasters.
Ironskins is Mage's best friend on a Priest-type character, which is a massive boon.
Nature's Beauty is a ridiculous AoE blind with no saving throw in a game where blind causes the AI to go apeshit.
These three spells alone are enough to roll with a druid, and you also get really, really good HLAs.
As a single-classed druid, Cernd makes the level 14->15 gap faster than Jaheira, so he's a good choice because Druid HLAs are strong and becoming a Great Druid is quite substantial in terms of available spellslots (which means more amazing utility).
In conclusion, Cernd is absolutely great in spite of his shortcomings.

[Anonymous No.5279858]

>>5279821
Between 2-3 APR and 65 MR, I pick 65MR every single time. Spell slots are barely a consideration, but his 7 fighter levels puts Anomen behind in spell slots for most of the game. Girdle of hill giant strenght can be bought right at the start, so yeah, maybe for a few hours Anomen can get an edge here.
As for smite 1d4 per level is low, skull trap is way better and it's party friendly too, protection from magic energy and a certain priest tanking at 90-100MR makes it so.
5 skeleton warriors hasted move fast, tank really good, are not moved at all by skull traps exploding around them and they strike with something like 5 thac0 at 3APR. That's really good damage compared to a single 1d4 per level aoe.
>>5279842
also this
his stats aren't half bad either because his con, dex and str can be fixed, only problem (and why he is hardly popular) is that he has to use all three items that most players split among their party (which makes including him hard if you don't plan for it).

[Anonymous No.5279874]

>>5279858
>Spell slots are barely a consideration, but his 7 fighter levels puts Anomen behind in spell slots for most of the game
...No?
What?
Anomen starts at like 7/8 stat spread when you first meet him, and advances exclusively in Cleric. Viconia starts at how much XP? Cleric level 9 or 10? That's not "most of the game". Anomen isn't behind in clerical ability at all.
>Between 2-3 APR and 65 MR, I pick 65MR every single time
Considering the dividends on Improved Haste I wouldn't be so hasty on this decision.
>As for smite 1d4 per level is low, skull trap is way better and it's party friendly too, protection from magic energy and a certain priest tanking at 90-100MR makes it so.
Yeah I don't buy it, by that logic Fireball can also be made party-friendly. And the AoE blind on failed save can hardly be overlooked, too. Considering that Priests are traditionally weak offensively, I'd say Holy Smite is a nice boon to have. Plus, again, you're capped on summons; there's plenty of spellslots around, even when you're Anomen.

[Anonymous No.5279963]

>>5279874
Honestly, if you play without pfme (1turn/level, as chaotic commands and death ward) on criticial characters most of the time you're playing it wrong. In the base game it's fine, but in SCS it's begging to get killed by the first high level mage you meet and his x3 abi dhalzim contingency, or x3 skull trap sequencer at lower level, or anything else really.
Same with fire resistance, having at least 50 fire resistance from the level 3 mage spell (again, 1 turn/level, can be on critical characters pretty much all time) is always nice seeing how common fire damage is.
Smite is only party friendly if you roll good, which is limiting in your choices or forces you to protect characters as you would if you were casting another, way better, skull shaped AoE spell.
Aoe blind on save is not really anything decisive, blindness (level 1 mage spell!) and glitterdust are party friendly too.

I don't think you fully realize how powerful creatures and companions with 100MR are. But I tell you, that makes them really fucking hard to take down and they eat beholders for breakfast. Holy Smite won't ever help you against a mage, but 100MR hasted skeletons will keep him busy or even kill him as well as tear through low level enemies like holy smite would. Always good to keep a smite on hand sure, but most of the time I will run out of skellies before using that smite or two.
As for the APR question, Improved haste is great and I was talking about apr under it obviously.
Anomen won't reach 10, and between 7-8 APR (don't remember) with no innate magic resistance (that magic resistance divine spell will get dispelled) and 4-5 APR and high innate MR, the latter is imo better in every situation. Bar from that x3 lower resistance trigger some mages will cast, there is pretty much nothing they can do.

[Anonymous No.5279989]

I started playing Legacy of Bhaal difficulty for the first time,

here is my party before rescuing Imoen.

Nalia, Jan and Aerie for casting. Cernd for Insect Plague and summons.

[Anonymous No.5280020]

>>5279195
>>5278250
Yeah, I was aware that the cleric/ranger had been "fixed" in the EE, but this can be easily "unfixed" by changing one number in the baldur.lua file. I have done this and can confirm that my main character is able to cast nice level 4 druid spells (like Call Woodland Beings) so all is good on this front.

Apart from the cleric/ranger fix, can you think of any other examples where the game mechanics were changed in EE? I naively thought that the changes were mostly badly-written extra content/characters and new dialogue for existing characters to make them more lefty/tranny friendly; I wasn't aware that the gameplay had been seriously abused...
My strategy is going to be to basically ignore all the new EE content, although possibly use it to my advantage in some limited cases, e.g.:
- Do the first part of Hexxat's quest to get a free bag of holding.
- Take Dorn to the Umar Hills and use his level-draining immunity to distract all the shades then kill him after Mazzy is rescued.

I'm not averse to restarting without the EE, but it would be a bit of a drag so I'd prefer not to unless the changes really do f*ck up the game mechanics in an unacceptable way.

[Anonymous No.5280026]

>>5279989
>Legacy of Bhaal
>in a party of full casters
I strongly recommend putting on some meatshields because the amount of HP bloat really begs for something with a high attack-per-round count.
>>5279963
>Smite is only party friendly if you roll good, which is limiting in your choices or forces you to protect characters as you would if you were casting another, way better, skull shaped AoE spell.
I mean idk, man, with Evil you bank everything on three NPCs and some neutrals, with Good you technically have more NPCs to work from and they're no slouches either. Plus you get easier access to some of the Good-only artifacts and are never afraid to pump rep high up for buying out whole stock. I don't think it's such a big deal; I don't think anyone plans on rolling Good solely for spamming Holy Smite, but spamming Holy Smite on your wholly good party is a nice boon instead.
>I don't think you fully realize how powerful creatures and companions with 100MR are.
Of course they are, but if we're already talking about the bounty of other ways you can achieve a close-to-maxed out MR character in your party at all times (including summoning them for free), then I fail to see how that doesn't somewhat diminish Viconia's contribution to the party.
>As for the APR question, Improved haste is great and I was talking about apr under it obviously.
Base Anomen under Improved Haste is going to hit at 6 APR the moment you get the spell - a HUGE opportunity cost - and that number only increases with more pips in weapons. That's pretty strong, especially considering the HP bloat introduced by some SCS components and given the strength of items like FoA at that time, especially considering since Anomen is a hard-hitter with all the Strength buffs on. He's also a superior Slinger due to the APR, and ranged weaponry for safe dispatching of certain enemies is also a very viable way of dealing with SCS opponents.

[Anonymous No.5280043]

>>5280026
Also, regarding Animate Dead - yes, it's a great spell. It also only gains its truly amazing properties once the cleric hits 1,5 million XP. Until then, skeletons are nice to have, but not gods of war, and those level 3 spellslots are certainly not as hotly contested by the skeleton swarms at that point. I will take a 14d4 spammable nuke if I am in a Good party and then happily surrender most of those spellslots, but until then I'll probably have blown up a ton of shades, vampires and other undead bullshit with this spell, so it will have paid off.

[Anonymous No.5280104]

>>5280020
>Take Dorn to the Umar Hills and use his level-draining immunity
Korgan is a berserker, which means he can enrage, which means he is immune to level drain, all confusion type spells, stun, hold, fear, sleep and imprisonment while enraged
>>5280026
Evil parties can get good members, you're not forced to get 0 reputation, Aerie will just bitch about it, Keldorn and Mazzy will eventually attack you if you don't give some money to a temple once in a while, but if you don't play as a pro-slavery activist brainless psychopath murdering everything you'll be fine and you can get all really useful good items anyway if you want to (Carsomyr, and that's pretty much it really).
6-7 apr is alright, I mean Korgan will get 10 with an apr boosting weapon and 9 with two awesome axes and late game gauntlets, 8 otherwise, Sarevok will get 8 or 9 and vorpal hits, Mazzy gets 10 with bows, all of them as well as Keldorn will eventually get whirlwind so 10 APR, as discussed earlier, even a mage/thief can reach 8APR.
So his alright-but-not-amazing dps will not be enough to put him over a near magic immune Viconia, in any situation whatsoever. She can still dual the flail of ages and the defender of easthaven at a respectable 4-5APR and reach 90 magic resistance in chapter 2, 95 with the shield of the lost and 100 once you get the 10% MR amulet. Hence why I don't think he's high tier as I said earlier, he's still a very solid character though.
Completely agree with this about undeads >>5280043 though

[Anonymous No.5280118]

>>5280104
>Evil parties can get good members, you're not forced to get 0 reputation, Aerie will just bitch about it, Keldorn and Mazzy will eventually attack you if you don't give some money to a temple once in a while, but if you don't play as a pro-slavery activist brainless psychopath murdering everything you'll be fine and you can get all really useful good items anyway if you want to (Carsomyr, and that's pretty much it really).
I modded out reputation conflict a long time ago because it does not make sense to me, but mods aside you also have to worry about conflict. Keldorn will fight Viconia, Korgan will drive Aerie off. I think only Mazzy and Imoen truly do not give a fuck about anything other than being a decent person.

[Anonymous No.5280124]

>>5280118
Alternatively you can solve any conflict with a maze scroll, figuring out how to exit it apparently calms everyone down

[Anonymous No.5280130]

>>5280124
Ehhhhh, that's a little bit too exploitish for me, and I already just spent a lot of energy on posting about powergaming in a game that most people will never require to grok in this manner, so I'm not an "RP first" kinda person either.

[Anonymous No.5280138]

>>5280130
lot less an exploitation than modding it out of the game imo, great thing to have your mage send those bickering children calm their nerves in an extradimensional maze honestly

[Anonymous No.5280331]

>>5280118
>doing good things nets you fuckloads of riches and trinkets and makes life easier in general
>evil characters hate this for some reason

[Anonymous No.5280379]

>>5280104
Excellent point about the berserker level-draining immunity, which I'd totally forgotten about. Thanks for the reminder anon.

So I'll take korgan to the Umar hills and then replace him with Mazzy. May even do his tomb raider quest first to gain some more experience. This will reduce my exposure to the EE shit which is a definite bonus.

[Anonymous No.5280407]

>>5280379
you can also keep him a while with mazzy, they have fun banters

[Anonymous No.5280985]

>>5280379
Speaking of berserker ability, it was one of the very few things that made Minsc appear passable. But oh wait, he has a "special" kind of berserker ability that makes him go full retard and attack anyone, including the party. Wow, awesome. The shittiest NPC got even shittier.

I have no idea why people who have played BG2 more than once use him. Other than reddit types LOL BOO SO CUTEEE GIANT SPACE HAMSTER XD OMG LOL EPIC WIN.

I'm not edgy enough to leave him in his cage, but I usually dump him right after Irenicus' dungeon or after the circus. Like anon said earlier, the extra 15% experience points > Minsc.

[Anonymous No.5281049]

>>5280985
>Speaking of berserker ability, it was one of the very few things that made Minsc appear passable
I really think his high Strength is just enough to make him passable. He seems tailormade as a beginner NPC:
>comes online very quick
>bashes brains in so he's simple to figure out
>memorable dialogue even if divisive
>has tons of weapon proficiencies for you to play around with
>solid stats so he appeals to people too scared to use consumables
>Vampire racial enemy is good because you'll fight plenty of vampires along the mainline story
And he's still better than Rasaad or Yoshimo, for obvious reasons.
I don't think he's "shit", more like C-tier.
>I have no idea why people who have played BG2 more than once use him.
You will find plenty of people that have played the game from book end to book end and still believe the usual 2001 guide "truths" about druids and whatever. I recall an old guide to spells saying PfMW is a shit spell because it lasts only 5 rounds.

[Anonymous No.5281440]

>>5280407
Yeah, I've heard that korgan and mazzy are fun together, so I may give that a try. However, I don't want to keep that filthy dwarf around too long as he's likely to upset my beloved Aerie.

[Anonymous No.5281650]

The SCS components for spellhold are amazing
Finished it with all my equipment taken (recoverable in the office of Irenicus once you've made him flee the field) and Bodhi chasing me on rests and when I just take too long to complete it, it was great fun to find a good build around that and use spells I never actually use, enchanted weapon, barskin (which is actually amazing to cast on mages for tough fights in general), spiritiual hammers and fire swords, etc.
For those who want to try it, you should take a look inside the bag of holding when you get it, I only realised it was stuffed with non magical equipment once I had actually recovered mine. But using spells to replace equipment is more fun and yields better results anyway. Good times.

[Anonymous No.5281692]

>>5272465
A much better idea would have been to put each version of the portrait next to each other instead of this insipid flashing which, by the way, despite being almost useless, must have taken quite a while longer to compose too.

[Anonymous No.5281749]

>>5280985
Good aligned ranged who hits very hard with dual wielding or a two hander and can shoot bows as backup.

There's nothing bad about him at all. Krogan just uses a completely broken overpowered kit so he's better than any other fighter by a long shot.

[Anonymous No.5281798]

>>5281749
>broken overpowered kit
lmao I don't even want to guess your opinion on actual broken overpowered kits
Enrage is not much more than an on-demand chaotic commands/resist fear/protection from negative energy that doesn't last that long and can't be cast in chain, there is a fatigue cooldown when it ends, it's really not broken. Otherwise berserker is a standard fighter kit that can't get much ranged proficiency, there's nothing broken about that unless your standard for non-broken characters is minsc.

[Anonymous No.5281827]

>>5281798
Anything that renders its original class pointless is in that category, to me. Berserker removes the need to prebuff or keep spells memorized. Instant complete immunity paired with Fighter's dps output. Its nuts.

This isn't much of a complaint, Baldur's Gate is fun because it gives you these sorts of tools.

[Anonymous No.5281838]

>>5281692
I like how Bodhi is now a tranny. Very progressive.

[Anonymous No.5281843]

>>5281827
>Berserker removes the need to prebuff or keep spells memorized
yeah sure, but having an additional level 5 and 4 priest spell slot thanks to that isn't anything spectacular either honestly
and again, it doesn't last that long and can't be cast in chain, so if you're up in a serious fight, you'll want to cast chaotic commands on him anyway just in case
It can come in handy sure, as well as the -2AC bonus it gives, but it's not really nuts.

[Anonymous No.5284120]

>>5272519
based beamdog-basher