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/vr/ - Retro Games


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5206679 No.5206679 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]

I think he has a point on checkpoints, but I his comments on other things just prove he doesn't really like difficulty.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1zhhd-JrqA

>> No.5206684

Fuck off.

>> No.5206693

>>5206684
What?

>> No.5206701

Using the words "artificial difficulty" to describe anything at all is really fucking stupid.
Video is shallow and unfocused, cares too much about calling design choices good or bad instead of talking about what they accomplish. He doesn't mention, for instance, that the lives system in games encourages mastery over the easy early parts of a game so you can have a better chance at the harder later stages, whereas in a game that doesn't have lives it's possible to just brute-force each part of the game individually through sheer number of attempts instead of actually learning to play the game properly. Limited lives also encourage replayability and give a better sense of how your skills have progressed.
Also, the guy has this weird double standard where he praises TEiN for letting you adjust the difficulty level (giving you extra tries) by collecting shit in the levels which is exactly what you do in games that have limited lives.

>> No.5206703

NES games weren't difficult for any noble reason as a lot of neckbeards seem to thinks.

1. Most NES games were poorly designed and difficult as a result of that.
2. A lot of them were arcade ports with the arcade difficulty carried over and no way to put quarters in.
3. Most were absurdly overpriced and pathetically short. Difficulty was used to artificially lengthen games and therefore justify their asking price.
4. North American games had their difficultly ramped way the fuck up so you couldn't beat them in a single rental. Video game rentals were illegal in Japan so they didn't have to do this.

Did I miss anything?

>> No.5206706

>>5206703
>Games are to make money
you're fucking blowing my mind here, anon

>> No.5206714

>>5206706
So you agree with what I said? Why are you lashing out at me?

>> No.5206716

>>5206703
Based.

>> No.5206729

>>5206714
I just find it hilarious how you said that like you're some kind of genious for figuring that out and also that you're acting like it matters at all. That Michelangelo painted the sistine chapel for money doesn't make it any less of a work of art.

>> No.5206730

>>5206729
>NES games are art

Oh you. One thing I forgot to mention is a lot of games were designed badly on purpose to incentivize people to buy magazines with walkthroughs, call tip-lines etc... Stupid shit like kneeling with a red crystal in Simon's Quest is the most obvious example.

>> No.5206731

>>5206679
I think part of the salt here is that he has actual points. I think the title and thumbnail is just too harsh.

>> No.5206734

>>5206730
>>NES games are art
It's called an analogy, anon.

>> No.5206735

>>5206731
>he has actual points
such as?

>> No.5206740

>>5206734
Michelangelo didn't paint the Sistine chapel badly on purpose to bilk more money out of people.

>> No.5206741

>>5206703
NES games were about as hard as arcade games of the time. It was a transition period from coin-op games to consoles. More difficult games made more money in the arcade era.

>> No.5206743

>>5206730
What the fuck does that have to do with Nintendo games being considered art? Cause they are works of art, even action fifty two, albiet it is the equivalent of a feminist shitting spaghettios out their vaginas in terms of artistic integrity.

>> No.5206747

>>5206679
holy shit what a disgusting casual

>> No.5206760
File: 148 KB, 1992x1336, gene-siskel-and-roger-ebert.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
5206760

>>5206743
They're laughing at you from Heaven. I'm laughing at you from Earth.

>> No.5206765

I bet this guy thinks Castlevania 3 is bad game design.

>> No.5206779

>>5206679
I think this video's main issue is that it presents itself as a video on NES game design and difficulty in general while focusing on a very specific type of life/checkpoint/game over structure that is not even universal among the NES games he mentioned. He also occasionally brought up some gameplay elements (zombies in GnG, Shovel Knight's introduction of stage elements) without really applying the arguments he is making in those sections to other games, or even other elements within GnG or Shovel Knight. How does the Zombie behavior interact with other enemy behavior in GnG? What about how the addition of tombstones slows player progress early in Stage 1 and allows zombies time to appear on screen, forcing players to manage enemies while they navigate platforms?

I don't fully disagree with criticisms of life systems, but I think the video's thesis was too unfocused to really drive those points home.

>> No.5206781

>>5206760
>Two brainlets who cucked the 90s into thinking their opinions were not shit.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, anon.

>> No.5206785
File: 32 KB, 400x300, siskel-thumb-500x375-35838.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
5206785

>>5206781
Stop playing with toys, you utter manchild.

>> No.5206856

>>5206785
Yes, grow up. Stop doing things that are fun. Just work, save and plan. Your time is over.

>> No.5206879

>>5206684
>Fuck off.
this

I'm not watching a JewTube video whining about "artificial difficulty", and I hope somebody clubs him to death with a crowbar

>> No.5206882

>>5206701
Artificial Difficulty can be used for stuff that is hard, but not exactly in a challenge sort of way.

For example, things that require split second or "blind jumps" can be called artificial difficulty because the player will either have to try to react to something which may or may not forgive their reaction time, or have to hope they're able to find solid ground on landing.

>> No.5206884

>>5206882
Just call it bullshit hard. That's easier.

>> No.5206891

>>5206884
It is easier, but I guess artificial difficulty explains the point that it's not actually "hard" in the sense that it expects more skillful play by the player and "harder" from basically limiting information.

>> No.5206893

>>5206882
Artificial Difficulty is far too vague.

If you're talking about Blind Jumps, you use Leap of Faiths, because that's more accurate.

>> No.5206896

>>5206893
I guess the vagueness is because it's a extremely general statement in general and can sometimes be up to debate.

>> No.5206909

>>5206731
>I'm an adult and don't want to learn the levels
>I'll just use savestates and savescum instead
These are the people who make
V I D E O G A M E
A N A L Y S I S
V I D E O S
on youtube. People who don't want to learn the intricacies. People who literally use the most basic bitch examples you could pick.

Mario 3? Where's some actually bullshit hard NES games? There are plenty. There are hundreds on the system, and you pick mario bros 3? A game designed for literal children.

>> No.5206913

Why people still bitching about the Nes difficulty when this era is full of Meat boy, I wanna be the guy and Dark souls clones who are designed in a similar way?

>> No.5206920

>>5206909
every NES game is designed for "literal" (as opposed to figurative?) children

>> No.5206921

>>5206913
Surprise, those games don't sell. Everyone says they love but nobody actually plays them.

>> No.5206923

>>5206920
Hot slots and Bubble Bath babes exist, rendering your statement incorrect.

>> No.5206924

>>5206923
>unofficial bootlegs
Oh gee, my arguments surely got destroyed. Guess what bubble bath is tame as hell doesn't even show nipples.

>> No.5206927

>>5206909
Exactly this, I don't need any hot takes from somebody who thinks that actually playing the games is beneath them, which goes for half of the posters here as well

>> No.5206930

>>5206913
IWBTG is a totally different league from DS and SMB and is what people usually mean with Artificial Difficulty.

Dark Souls is about knowing the ins and out of your character to defeat bosses that can out damage you if you go in blind, and SMB is about using platforming skills in very hard (but fair) levels. Notably, both also are forgiving in the sense of little to no penalty on death, and usually is somewhat quick to have you re-spawn.

On the other hand, IWBTG is a game all about dumb level design stuff, like hazards coming out of nowhere (the infamous apples) extremely precise platforming, and a character that will die from one hit. When people talk about BS/NES/Artifical/False difficulty, they usually mean stuff like Leaps of Faith, things that come out of nowhere extremely quickly, and choices that unknowingly screw you over (like investing in a stat that is actually useless)

>>5206921
I mean Dark Souls and SMB both have sold enough money to get re-releases and/or more games.

>> No.5206935

>>5206679
What makes this video so bullshit is that MOST games had checkpoints. Great majority of NES titles had infinite continues OR saves OR passwords. I genuinely can't name five games that did NOT.

He definitely exaggerates on the lives system. And the part on graphics... just fuck you, dude. God, and that whining on sprite flicker is so fucking ignorant.

Like, after a couple minutes it loses all traction and becomes a vlog on retro-inspired games.

>> No.5206942

>>5206703
I don't know why you morons think that developer intent matters and that reasons for certain design decisions have to be noble to be good. The point is that it worked, it made for really good, fun, challenging skill based games mostly devoid of the usual filler we get nowadays. Same with arcades, it doesn't matter if developers just wanted to rip off the players or if they did it for the art, the end results speak for themselves - the format consistently produced the best action games ever made.

>> No.5206943

>>5206679
if he thinks nes games are bad, he should try playing spectrum or c64 games

>> No.5206948

>>5206935
I think he just hates sonic even though it's not nes

>> No.5206958

I love how these retards always, ALWAYS ignore the most obvious solution to the lack of checkpoints problem which arcade-style games have been using for ages - practice modes. Though of course knowing this would require they play the style of games they're talking about instead of sitting on their dumb fat asses and playing Mario, Zelda, Megaman and other basedcore shit.

>> No.5206963

>>5206948
To be fair, Sonic was designed for max replayability. If you beat Sonic once, you didn't beat Sonic. You need to understand the game, find all the hidden paths and tricks to beat it faster and faster. Speed is the reward.

>> No.5206968

>>5206958
I mean, this dude required savestates to beat SMB3. And that was AFTER he looked up a faq and warped straight to World 8. I think he just might be an impatient scrub.

>> No.5206984

>>5206968
No doubt about it, besides it's hard to find a NES game without checkpoints at the start of each level at the very least. Even arcades had plenty of checkpoints or instant respawns when credit feeding.

Amusingly enough I remembered about this vid of his :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPVXGE5I7xg

Pretty much did a 180 since then, or I guess such "archaic design" is fine if you sprinkle in some social commentary to make him feel like there's some greater meaning to what he's doing.

>> No.5206990

>>5206679

>beloved Famicom characters right by "bad game design is totally not clickbait to stir controversy guys

>> No.5206994

>>5206984
That's the weirdest part, he really likes these ridiculously unforgiving games like Celeste, 1001 Spikes or Getting Over It... but has absolutely no patience for older games with a similar style. Pure hypocrisy.

>> No.5206998

>>5206921
The Dark Souls trilogy has sold over 13 million copies (not counting extra money the developers made from DLC and merchandise)

It sold well enough.

>> No.5207009

>>5206994
With the exception of Getting Over It, there's a pretty big difference between those games and a lot of the NES games he mentions. Those checkpoint spam games are about instant gratification, challenging retro games are more about gradual build up of consistency and skill. Getting Over It isn't like that at all though, and it even has parts designed to be a near guaranteed drop for new players like it's an arcade game. Makes it all the more baffling and inconsistent.

>> No.5207016

>>5206785
It's interesting to note that Ebert was briefly obsessed with the first NES TMNT.

>> No.5207036

Games that didn't have high difficulty would be completed too early and be returned to the store. Megaman is difficult but fair because it gives you passwords and its predicable. Ghosts and goblins takes it too far that it reduces the fun, as a kid I got heroes of the lance but it was so hard that we took it back to the store. Consider Aladdin and kirby etc, its way easy. The difference back then was that people played games as a challenge while now the popular main stream games are like entertainment in the same way as tv is but there also are many hardcore modern games but they are niche.

>> No.5207040

>>5207009
The guy just says hard games are fair and well-designed when he likes them, and when he doesn't like them he says they're unfair and badly-designed and tries to nlame his mistakes on the game, like he does in the op video and his Crash Bandicoot video.

>> No.5207049

>>5207036
GnG being unpredictable is what makes the whole series so fun to play and even alleviates complaints people have about how early levels get boring to replay. It's hard to take most who talk about GnG seriously because people just refuse to put time into it and learn it, dismissing it as bullshit and criticizing its best aspects without thinking. All while the actual bullshit aspects of the shoddy NES port don't get a single mention.

>> No.5207050

>>5206998
Yeah but by the fifth installment nobody gives a fuck anymore about le git gud meme. Flash in the pan.

>> No.5207073

All I took out of that video was that he took 15 minutes to say "I don't like games that make you restart at the beginning when you die too many times".

>> No.5207172
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5207172

>Guy who warps to World 8 and uses save states for Mario 3 lectures us about "bad game design"

>> No.5207181

bump

>> No.5207189

>>5206701
>Limited lives also encourage replayability
Sure, having to do it all over is "replayability"

>> No.5207195

>>5206942
Except that people don't like getting ripped off, arcade died for a reason.

>> No.5207198

>>5207195
>dropping a quarter in a machine to play an awesome game that you can stop playing at any point is getting ripped off
>spending 60 bux preordering a piece of shit that gets dropped after 5 hours isn't
People are dumb fags, what else is new

>> No.5207208
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5207208

In the last 20 years the game industry has gone from challenge = good to challenge = bad game design.

Of course the reason for this is that games have turned into movies and anything that prevents the player from seeing the rest of the movie is considered bad bad bad

>> No.5207213

>>5207198
More like you get kicked out every 5 minutes if you don't spend more coins. SCAM

>> No.5207218

>>5207213
You don't get kicked out you lose due to being shit, good players can easily spend an hour playing per quarter

>> No.5207219

>>5207218
Nah it's a rip off for drug users, trannies and degenerates. The best fighting game player is a gay furry.

>> No.5207224

I thought shilling was against the rules here. You and that ABI faggot.

>> No.5207225

>>5207219
He's a kid who grew up on consoles you retard

>> No.5207226

>>5207213
I can play Crazy Taxi for half an hour on one credit without much issue. I know people can spend an hour on light gun games, too.

>> No.5207231

>>5207213
I can beat most Metal Slugs on one credit, and had a 12 win streak on CvS2 and at least an 8 win streak in MvC2 at my local arcade before. Never been kicked out not threatened.

>> No.5207235

>>5207231
I lie out my ass on the internet too.

>> No.5207236

>>5207235
I know you can. But that's not farfetched in the slightest. Especially given that the arcade I go to has the only CvS2 cab in the state. If I said I got a 100 win streak, then i'd be lying out my ass. Let me guess, you think QCF motions are hard?

>> No.5207237

>>5207236
Everyone lies on the internet. Post proof you're not underage or get the fuck out my face, zoomer.

>> No.5207238

Boomer's stockholm syndrome is so bad they actually defend scamming children out of their lunch money. SAD.

>> No.5207239
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5207239

>>5207237
>le /v/eddit terminology
Post dismantled. I tell you what, I'll post some of my Neo Geo carts. Not that you ever heard of any of them.

>> No.5207240

>>5207239
>carts
Nothing proves you've 1cc'd them, faggotron.

>> No.5207243

>>5207240
>moving the goalpost
You told me to prove i'm not a zoomer and I did just that, you daft cunt. Now you tell me to prove that I 1CC'ed them instead? Keep it consistent with your arbitrary faggotry.

>> No.5207247

>>5207040
Yeah.
Honestly, with the latest outpour of armchair game design analysts on Youtube (every moron with a gaming channel thinks he's Mark Brown), I considered making a video series where I'd mock the worst of it, something like what Retsuprae did for Lets Plays.

Like, not necessarily in bad faith, but at least to get these people to some basic level when they spout bullshit. I've seen an (otherwise good) analysis of Mighty No 9 that said that the fact that game has a tutorial is a flaw, and you should let player find the right buttons 'naturally' (i.e. trial and error).

For the record, Mighty No 9 is a PC game. Its native controller is a keyboard with over a 100 keys on it. And this kind of thoughtless bullshit runs unchecked, and soon we will start to have indie designers listening to this contradictory bullcrap.

>> No.5207248

>>5207240
It doesn’t sound like you’ve ever played metal slug 2 anon

>> No.5207250

>>5207247
>we will start to have indie designers listening to this contradictory bullcrap.
They’ve been listening to EC for years, anon.

>> No.5207251

>>5207248
It's the one with the MASSIVE slowdown

>> No.5207257

>>5207247
That shit can be pretty fun if you're good at it yourself, critpoints blog guy has been doing it for years. More than anything these retards have to play more games, and in a more hardcore manner even if they don't like it. Gives a proper perspective.

>> No.5207263

>>5207247
Do it, I'll sub to it.

>> No.5207264

>>5206684
fpbp

>> No.5207279

>>5206679

This guy is saying Ducktales is hard? Its incredibly easy.

>> No.5207296

Anons, this is someone who actually has "Gaming" in their channel name. Are you actually expecting him to not be the Armond White of video games?

>> No.5207315

Never heard of this faggot before but I'm happy about the amount of shit he's getting in the comments

>> No.5207323

>>5207250
See, the EC has the advantage that James Portnow is Actually A Game Designer. He actually works in the industry and has a game development consulting thing I believe? So the stuff he says usually makes some sense, even if it's usually heavy on fluff about 'possibilities' and 'thinking like a designer' and very little solid advice (but some stuff, like Fail Faster and Minimum Viable Product are genuinely good advice that might really help people). Most EC is a decent entry-level introduction to game industry concepts, and its good for what it is.

I'm not saying of course that he's perfect, and I often disagree with him. But as far as this stuff goes, he's decent.

But you can't say that about Mark Brown, Egoraptor, Matthewmathosis, or as seen in the OP, Snoman Gaming.

Or Adam Millard Architect of Gaming, or Geek Critique, or Core-A Gaming, or PBS Game Show, or Hbomberguy, or GameSoup... et cetera, et cetera. There is a fucking TON of those. And half of them think 'bad design' means 'what I personally dislike in games'.

Like, if you listened to what half of these channels say, you would end up with a game that has a checkpoint every 1 minute, but doesn't have a tutorial, and you have only one action - jump - that is used for everything, even talking or opening doors. At the same time, game has a huge branching storyline that is utterly incomprehensible if you don't read item descriptions (because Dark Souls!) et cetera.

Like half of those try to find 'good' game design rather than looking for 'game design that has a purpose'. Not every game would be better with nonlinear open world, or Dark Souls bonfire system.

>> No.5207330

>>5207279
The weirdest fucking part of this video is that he really... doesn't. He doesn't specify which games he's talking about, he just keeps talking about "NES games", whatever that means. He occasionally nitpicks mechanics from specific games like committed jump arc in Castlevania and respawning level 1 zombies in Ghouls and Ghosts.
And the footage doesn't make it any clearer, because it's usually terribly picked (e.g. when talking about 'later levels having cheap deaths' he uses Quick Man, even though MM2 has level select and you can play Quick Man first if you want.)

>> No.5207337

>>5206701
>encourages mastery over the easy early parts of a game so you can have a better chance at the harder later stages

That's exactly the problem. This denies you the chance to consistently practice the harder parts, which strangles your ability to master them.

>> No.5207353

>>5206679
NES games aren't even hard, with a few exceptions.

>>5206703
NES games aren't difficult PERIOD, you stupid fucking faggot.

>> No.5207385

>>5207330
If he was clearer he would be more open to actual criticism. He is hiding behind vagueness.

>> No.5207389
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5207389

>>5206703

>> No.5207409

>>5207337
What's a problem to you isn't necessarily a problem for other people.
You're right in saying having a lives system usually makes it harder to get good at later levels, and if you don't like that that's perfectly fine, but other people obviously don't consider that a deal-breaker and actually value the other contributions of lives to the overall experience.

>> No.5207426
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5207426

>>5206920
Ok.... Do you really believe that?

>> No.5207430
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5207430

>>5206785
Stop being cucked by hollyjew faggots! Do you have some kind of "wrong think" switch beat into your brain?
>They did thing that I was told isn't copacetic, let's try to shame then literal puppets of the media

>> No.5207432
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5207432

>>5206703

>> No.5207484

>>5207257
I never heard of critpoints before, I checked him out. It seems he's really good and I will definitely read more of him, but one fatal flaw: his opinions on story and adventure games are pure bullshit, where for some reason he uses definition of games that was okay maybe in 19th century to refer to tic tac toe and sports.

Also he claims that story is 'outside the scope of his blog' but if you look at story tag, you will find a crapton of writing on story. Gee, for someone who doesn't care about story, he sure writes a lot about it.

Still, otherwise he seems like a good game design analyst so thanks for introducing me to his content!

>> No.5207493

>>5206703
>Most NES games were poorly designed and difficult as a result of that.
The same can be said about modern games, except modern games usually are mindlessly easy because of bad design.
>A lot of them were arcade ports with the arcade difficulty carried over and no way to put quarters in.
Which is not inherently bad. Also a lot of these ports decided to give player infinite continues, and infinite continues are standard practice to this day.
>Most were absurdly overpriced and pathetically short. Difficulty was used to artificially lengthen games and therefore justify their asking price.
Which is not inherently a bad thing. Dark Souls is a 10 hour game, but first time it will take you like 50 hours to beat it - but because of that, it can compete with other RPGs in length.
>North American games had their difficultly ramped way the fuck up so you couldn't beat them in a single rental. Video game rentals were illegal in Japan so they didn't have to do this.
That didn't happen NOWHERE near as often as you'd think, it's mostly a handful of isolated cases. Games being made easier for western market happened almost as often. Also while NA had rentals, Japan had rewritable Famicom Disk System floppies.

>> No.5207547

Reminder that modern games have all of 2 difficulties: none or checkpoint based shit where you are supposed to bash your head against an overtuned encounter designed around basically savescumming.

Oldschool games are a marathon. You have to conserve your resources and get through the long haul. Its great.

>>5207493
Its funny, once you learn the mechanics, Dark Souls is crazy easy. Gamers have simply been trained by the dark days of the 360 era to brainlessly breeze through a token gameplay sequence to get to the next cutscene. An actual game like Dark Souls was so popular because people hadn't actually seen one in so long.

>> No.5207563
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5207563

>>5206703
"I can't beat a single NES game without savescumming and using video guides like the subhuman zoomer nigger that I am, so I'll convince myself that these games weren't made to be beaten with raw skill."

>> No.5207652
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5207652

This retard's mentality is why you have morons cry for a second Brexit vote.

>> No.5207665

>>5207652
Disgusting child fucker.

>> No.5207669
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5207669

>>5207665
>drawings are porn

>> No.5207716

>look at me, I'm a retro gamer! I even got the iconic NES controller in my logo

>well, anyway, NES games suck, right?

>> No.5207768

>>5207337
That's already been solved with the addition of level select/practice modes to arcade style games.

>> No.5207848

>>5207484
No clue what he said about them or where but his definition of games is quite spot on and he does an excellent job at breaking down the confused clusterfuck we have come to known as video games into individual elements. Agree or disagree it should be useful. Most of the story related articles are him getting asked what the role of story should be by people who read the blog iirc, rather than actually evaluating any particular game stories. A heavy emphasis on game mechanics is actually surprisingly rare among critics, a lot tend to go into english major "holistic evaluation" territory and covering everything in a very shallow manner. It's good to have people that pick a focus, clearly outline their values and stick to them.

>> No.5207851

>>5206679
It should be called player courtship. Not game design. So much if had nothing to do with the game.
Bad game design to me is something like Solitaire where there's statistically something like 30-40% of the initial arrangements that are unwinnable by no fault of the player. But computer Solitaire can eliminate that possibility, and it doesn't making it any easier for the player.

Starting over from the beginning of a level is annoying. But changing that doesn't improve the game, it improves the player's relationship with the game. It's a courtesy. It's courting the player, so to speak.

>> No.5207862

>>5207851
Timestamp checked.

I like this idea, but more in combination of game design. Too bad it's too much for the average person. I don't think it would catch on and every idiot would have some literally throw ad hominem as a slight against it.

>> No.5207864

>>5207862
*Have some literal ad hominem to throw

>> No.5207906

>>5207851
The vast majority of game design is "courting the player" though, and this is a weird view of games where the experience of play is detached from the quality of games. It's not how me, you or anyone else actually judges a game's quality. Besides, a marathon kind of playstyle carries a lot of real in-game implications with it changing how the player approaches challenge, add enough punishment and the vast majority of players will take up a very cautious cheesy playstyle, fill the game with checkpoints at every step and players will start playing in a reckless and thoughtless manner. The job of game design is not just to make the game system, it's to guide the player through that game system making sure they learn it properly and engage with it in an optimal way. Also repeating levels is annoying in some games, not in others, it has to do with a large number of factors like difficulty, depth, unpredictability and more. Then again to players who have been conditioned by modern games I guess any setback will feel like a massive pain because people only thing in terms of progressing or not progressing.

>> No.5207916

>>5206785
You're literally posting cartoony images on an 18+ imageboard for talking about old ass games.

>> No.5207931

>>5207189
It's because you can replay the game without losing as many lives.

>> No.5207963

>>5207851
I think the vocabulary needs to grow.
Because "game design" is such an umbrella term to the point that anything and everything associated with the game is "the game".

Like, we can differentiate a story from the book that it's in. It's understood that illegible font doesn't make the story bad. Book and Story are different subjects. You know what the subject is even when someone uses "book" and "story" interchangeably.

But a game is a game is a game. In RPG discussions someone is always explaining why the story is or isn't part of the game. And there's always some retard that like "It's literally in the game". Followed by a tortured response trying to distinguish the game from the game. Which makes explaining gameplay even harder, because if they don't get the concept of a game, they're not going to understand gameplay either. They'll think it's just "playing the game" as if scrolling through menus is playing the game because it's part of the game which is in the game. Which subject is which? A designer understands the different subjects. But laymen anons don't even know there's is a different - and just as easily tell you anything that's fun is "a game".

>> No.5207967

>>5206920
>>5206923
>>5206924
taboo isn't a bootleg retard

>> No.5207969

>>5207963
Uhh, I think you're talking about something unrelated, and you kind of get into a convoluted mess there at the end, like you have a vendetta against people who define things differently. Maybe try and gather your thoughts, make them cohesive and come up with a term or terms that you can actually explain.

>> No.5208104

>>5207969
That's called conceit and speaking a different language. I made it sound convoluted to make my point that the vocabulary needs to grow. New terms would be helpful, but only so that I wouldn't have to explain them. The expectation is that you're already familiar with the concept and will disregard alternate connotations of a word given the context.
It's aggravating when people assume poorly and off load their language skills back to you. Especially when there's only one interpretation that makes sense. I would prefer they use their own brain; a boarder vocabulary that can't be misconstrued would do just that.

>> No.5208118

>>5207484
He focuses too much on fighting games and speedrunning for my tastes and appears to not understand why adventure games and other games that are relatively light on the gameplay depth might appeal to people.
Still, when he's in his element he usually makes interesting points.

>> No.5208134

>>5207239
collecting video games is by far the most zoomer thing possible

>> No.5208167

>>5206679
Fuck off, literal who.

>> No.5208178

>>5206730
Simon's Quest's faulty translation had more to do with it's opacity, genius.

>> No.5208467

Not even worthy of me acknowledging your post number. You are the dumbest waste of space in the history of the universe. Commit suicide.

>> No.5208486

>>5208178
That particular puzzle wasn't even hurt that badly by the translation. The clue explaining what you have to do says you have to go to Deborah's Cliff with a red crystal, the bit that gets fucked up by the translation is that it's also supposed to tell you to duck.
However, at this point you've already had to go somewhere with a blue crystal and duck to make a path appear, so it seriously isn't the game's fault if "maybe I should try ducking" never occurs to you. I solved that shit as a kid because I made that logical connection, and so did most others.

>> No.5209258

>>5206679
No, except for NES mega man games. They are extremely poorly designed.

>> No.5209285

>Used save states for Mario 3
>Thought Mario 3 was hard
I stopped there.

>> No.5209291

>>5209285
>Warped straight to World 8

>> No.5209292

>>5206948
Imagine hating a game you can beat in under 20 minutes because it's too hard.
Imagine finding Sonic the Hedgehog too hard, you can't even fucking die in most situations so long as you just pick up your rings.
Imagine being so bad at videogames but trying to make ""analytical"" videos about them.

>> No.5209312

>>5209291
if you use savestates at all just neck urself

>> No.5209323

>>5209312
I agree. I was saying what other bullshits stuff he did, while at the same time lecturing us about how hard old games are.

>> No.5209325

>>5209285
The difficulty isn't the game; it's the commitment to the game.

>> No.5209327

>>5209312
I only tolerate save States for games with password systems that were poorly implemented. Gex on ps1, super starwars (only sometimes), Beavis and butthead, zombies ate my neighbors (rarely), etc...

>> No.5209334

>>5209325
Which he explained. They're just being "difficult" themselves.

>> No.5209336

Classic NES games are nothing but absolute gameplay. The only thing limiting you is your own control over the game. Yeah no shit you might die a lot if you're unfamiliar with a game but by the time you beat the game you'll find it a lot easier. Because surprisingly when you play through a game you get better at it. Using shit like save states is just telling your self you can't actually finish the game, why even bother beating a game so dishonestly?

>> No.5209346

>>5209325
What?

>> No.5209358

>>5209325
>>5209334
>I'm gonna make a video on NES games, but for the one NES game i'll actually play, i'll skip 80% of the game and then use save states.
How the fuck am I supposed to trust you casual faggots when you do shit like this?
Are all NES games fair? Hell no. I'm very critical of a lot of classic NES games.

But when you're having trouble with even the easiest of games on the console, and having to cheat at that, then your opinion is invalid.

>> No.5209364

>>5209292
I can't imagine how embarrassing it would be to post videos about how bad you are at video games, while blaming the game for it.

>> No.5209379
File: 83 KB, 1028x693, flagilly.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
5209379

>>5209364
Zommers are born with a victim complex. They think it's not only acceptable to complain about such drivel, but it's a requirement to "cringe" at the contrary. Old games are shit, because they are too hard, it should be instant gratification all the time or you will hurt their feelings, which is slowly becoming against the law. Words are violence and constructive criticism is hate speech, welcome to the new age.

>> No.5209383

>>5208178
Simon's Quest's bad translation.is not that much of a problem. Now that game is a lesson in bad design: a lot of things are baffling and the NPCs fucking lie. It's a bad game in Japanese too.

>> No.5209395

>>5207247
>every moron with a gaming channel thinks he's Mark Brown
Even Mark Brown has a few duds (his recent SotN video was pretty shallow for exemple). He does have some good work though, like his accessibilty series.

I hate that "video essayist" youtube fad, and try to avoid those videos as much as possible since most of them are morons. I thought you couldn't top those movie and video game "experts", but the new wave of anime youtubers has sadly proved me wrong.

>> No.5209403

>>5209383
Thanks, guy that played it on the original Japanese cart.

>> No.5209421

i like how ever since egoraptor was obectively wrong about ocarina of time every other middle-school brained "game analyst" thinks them being too stupid to play a game correctly is bad design

>> No.5209431

>>5209403
>Simon's Quest
>Japanese cart
You could be a youtuber with that kind of knowledge.

>> No.5209854

>>5209327
>ZAMN
Confirmed pussy. Only something with an extremely long password deserves a savestate. Or perhaps Eternal Champions if you just want to practice against the Eternal Champion.

>> No.5209879

>>5206679
I didn't like how he was jerking off Shovel Knight for doing things it lifted directly from Mega Man. And how that other game uses color to visualize enemy strength when palette swaps have been a thing since forever.

>> No.5209883

>>5209854
I rarely use them on zombies ate my neighbors. I usually just beat the game, but sometimes I have to stop for a few hours and I'd rather pick up where I left off with all my lives and items, than start on level 20something with just the basics.

>> No.5209919

>>5209883
That game can be beat in an hour. Why start the game if you have to quit soon?

>> No.5209924

>>5209421
>objectively wrong
He wasn’t, and ocarina is overrated. Cry more.

>> No.5209927

>>5209919
I wouldn’t call a half hour “soon”. That seems like a pretty fair amount of time to spend playing a game.

>> No.5209943

>>5206679
Not gonna give him (You) the view you so desperately need so no idea what "other things" you're talking about. But NES difficulty is bad intelligent design not bad game design.

>> No.5209952

>>5209927
Maybe Atari, anon. Half an hour is short. It's time for some matches in a fighting game, but not some like ZAMN.

>> No.5209958

>>5209952
5 minutes is short. 15 minutes is moderately short. If you think half an hour is short, you’re a neet with too much time on your hands.

>> No.5209967

>>5206679
Less than three minutes in and he's already objectively wrong.
Lives aren't artificial difficulty for limiting your resources, lives are a way of ensuring that you're progressing because you are good enough at the game to meet its challenges rather than because you got lucky or brute forced your way through a particular section just from sheer number of attempts.

>> No.5209981

what you guys aren't understanding is that zoomers literally are not used to being able to lose in video games. like they genuinely don't understand it. except in multiplayer games, modern games cannot, CANNOT go unbeaten.

>> No.5209987

>>5207963
this anon is dangerously close to becoming self-aware, seriously gj using your thinking cap today anon this is a more enlightened post than 99.9% of the shit on this board

>> No.5210042

>>5206679
>Is NES Difficulty bad game design?
This isn't a real thing. The vast majority of NES games don't even superficially follow the same/similar design template. Even among games from the same devs. You can't lump hundreds of games together and make a case for them having the same difficulty curve and design. You could maybe make the case that there were little to no game design guidelines, and that devs were throwing shit at the wall to see what stuck, but that has little bearing on whatever the hell the video is on about.

>> No.5210043

>>5208104
No I get what you're saying. I wanted to actually here your ideas on some better language, Not just bitching about it.

>> No.5210046

>>5210043
*Hear

>> No.5210064

>>5206743
>action fifty two


Niggggguhhhh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bByPb2pX5To

>> No.5210069
File: 23 KB, 512x511, chad warden.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
5210069

>>5210064
forgot my pic!

>> No.5210095

>>5206679
I just watched the whole video and came to /vr/ because I knew there would be at least one thread about it
I hated the video, the guy is terrible at video games and has no business talking about them. It really says alot about our society.

>> No.5210130

>>5206920
That's horseshit. Early consoles, pc gaming, and arcades were heavily purchased and played by adults. I'm talking 70's & 80's mind you. It wasn't until the 90's when gaming shifted strongly towards the tween boy market.

>> No.5212020

>>5207050
The drop in hype for Dark Souls is almost entirely because the sequels have largely failed to build on the good parts of Dark Souls and Demon Souls. To a some extent they've bought into their own difficulty meme.

Dark Souls has "NES difficulty" in the sense that there is no hand-holding and there are some specific sections of the game that are very difficult. Beating O&S is really hard but on the whole, Dark Souls is not much harder than The Legend of Zelda or Mike Tyson's Punch-Out, and easier in many ways.

But Dark Souls 3 really seems designed explicitly to fuck with players who have played previous games. I found it to be a frustrating slog compared to DkS1, which I picked up after not having played any kind of action game for 10 years.

>> No.5212038

>>5209958
Poor bait, child. If a game takes about an hour to complete, then half an hour is short. Most games take longer because you wouldn't know how to breeze past them until multiple plays. Quit shitposting and just admit that you're a savestate using pussy with poor time management.

>> No.5212046

>>5212020
>But Dark Souls 3 really seems designed explicitly to fuck with players who have played previous games. I found it to be a frustrating slog compared to DkS1, which I picked up after not having played any kind of action game for 10 years.

but 2, 3 and Bloodborne are all easier than Demons and 1

>> No.5212053

>>5212046
why do you think that?

>> No.5212078

>>5209924
>him having no object permanence and spending a decade lost in the fire temple is the game's fault
i also have a hard time considering ocarina overrated anymore when any conversation about it mostly filled with people like you

>> No.5212158

>>5206679
I watched this yesterday. Eugh. A lot of nes games are needlessly cryptic (Castlevania II,) overly hard (Ninja Gaiden) or just really basic (Balloon Fight) but goddamn did I hate his arguments. I think mostly because he barely mentioned any good game designs from the nes era - only concentrating on how modern indie tributes have done it better. Like... could you at least mention one well designed nes game that isn't a fucking Mario game?

I think it's because I recently beat Castlevania 1 for the first time (properly too, no save states.) He mentions Castlevania in passing - saying it has clunky controls. Yes, that is true. Probably the worst thing about Cv1 is the clunky jumping. But everything else is so well designed - and for that matter designed well around the clunky jumping. That straight shot hallway before you fight death was one of the most intense, stressful but fun experiences I've had in a video game for years.

But he doesn't mention it - because this dingus decided that modern indie games are better than older games before he started making his video. Don't get me wrong - a lot of nes classics can be frustrating today but this video is just a bit shit at making that point.

>> No.5212172

>>5206684
fpbp

>> No.5212180

>>5212158
In comments he said he loves Castlevania 1, so I think he might've been intentionally contrarian to spark controversy. Or if we apply Hanlon's Razor, he was just being stupid and didn't make himself understood well.

>> No.5212183

>>5209395
Oh yeah, very much so. The most common problem plaguing these game design videos is that they almost always, almost universally fall into trap of "I dislike it, so it's bad design". Even Critpoints falls into this trap when it comes to story.

>> No.5212259

>>5206684
Literally best post

>> No.5212278

>>5206679
Guess you had to be there.

>> No.5212285

>>5212158
I liked Castlevania 2 I didnt find it cryptic just nonlinear. i loved the colors music and tone. Spooky nighttime was so cool.

>> No.5212290

>>5212053
Because once you've played one or two of them, you've basically played them all. You've caught on to their tricks, understand recurring items and other shit, and are not exactly venturing into the unknown. Its like people saying the original Pokemon games were hard and that the newer ones are easy. The reason an umpteenth sequel is is because someones played so many of them before.

>> No.5212315

>>5206679
he has no points. I tried to warn you niggers how stupid he was even after the dk64 video but you guys wouldnt listen. he just wants to nitpick stupid shit

>> No.5212331

he couldnt beat smb 3 without savestates his opinion is less than worthless

>> No.5212370

>>5212331
Did he not know about the flutes?

>> No.5212396

>>5212370
He used both flutes and save states, despite it being his first playthrough of the game.

>> No.5212435

>>5212290
I found DS3 specifically fucks with people who play like that, with really fucking awkward change-ups and endless combos that heavily rewards memorizing the moveset and using well-timed roll-dodges as the solution to everything. DS1 was mostly not like that until the DLC.

I mean, sure, after beating DkS1 I've never gotten stuck again the way I got stuck on O&S for the first time, but the early areas in Dark Souls 1 are really not hard at all if you're just patient and cautious. I even beat Taurus Demon on my first try. The early areas in DS3 are way more difficult (in an absolute sense) than Undead Burg and Parish.

>> No.5212459

>>5207963
Plenty of vocabulary exists people just lack the awareness and critical reasoning skills to use it properly.

>> No.5212463

>>5207906
Exactly. Replaying levels in NES games is supposed to be fun. You play the game because the mechanics are just satisfying and it feels good to win.

>> No.5212493

>>5212435
>using well-timed roll-dodges
That's literally the entire series.

>> No.5212519

>>5207848
I strongly disagree with him, because his entire shtick is based on the idea that adventure games aren't 'real' games, which is a revisionist garbage. In the 70s, exactly nobody said that Zork wasn't a videogame; in 80s, nobody said that King's Quest wasn't a videogame; and in the 90s, nobody said that Indiana Jones wasn't a videogame; in 2000s, nobody said that Post-Mortem wasn't a videogame. But oh no, suddenly in 2010s The Gone Home drops, and suddenly we have some asshats clutching their pearls wondering if its is an REAL videosgame???!1!

And his definition is asinine, because by his logic, pretty much no games nowadays are 'pure' games, but are a mixture between 'games' and 'videoware'. How in the fuck is this useful for anybody? What is the point of defining games *if games don't exist anymore*? Like are you seriously trying to tell me that when I start talking to an NPC in Fallout, Fallout stops being a game, but the moment I piss NPC off and combat start, it goes back to being a game? But what about the part where during the dialogue ('videoware') I start using game systems to e.g. perform a Persuasion check and then I get rewarded with XP? Oh no, the 'videoware' story is interacting with game systems! Does not compute, beep-boop BOOM!

His analysis articles are still useful, because there's WAY too few game critics who play games at a high level - most critics understand the term 'high skill ceiling', but can never *experience* it. His systems analyses are top tier. But he is, objectively speaking, incorrect. Story being part of videogames is universally accepted by 100% of academic circles and development studios. His definition might've had some sort of merit in 80s and 90s, but now? With narrative design being the fastest progressing type of game design? It's preposterous. Any serious designer would laugh at him.

>> No.5212545

>>5212519
Though I should mention - I *do* understand where he's coming from. I believe there is an inherent unique beauty to a well-designed game, and too few people appreciate artistic beauty of game design. I believe that raw beauty of Tetris or Pac-Man is hard to match by almost any movie - it's best compared to music, it doesn't require a story or message to be artistic and beatiful. The feelings that it provokes in a human being, and the elegance with which it does it is enough.

But still, his stuff about "if somebody wants to tell a message about war being horrible or something, then he doesn't care about games, he cares about deep message' is like entry level art discourse. Argument between people who believe the artform is more important in itself, and people who believe that artwork is only as important as its message is probably as old as time. All artforms go through it, and sometimes the same artist will stand on two sides of the barricade (in comics, Art Spiegelman is known for his experimental underground comics like Prisoner of Hell Planet [representing the Artform side of the argument], but his best known work is Maus, which is a regular biographical narrative about the Holocaust [representing the Message side].

Critpoints dude is caught in a cliche, and he doesn't even understand it.

Honestly, I almost want to make an entirely systemic adventure game, something like a non-combat metroidvania, very heavy on envrionmental storytelling, just to spite him and create an edge case he can't easily explain.

>> No.5212608

>>5212493
it's literally not. It's a big part, but not everything. You can beat basically everything in the first half of the game apart from bosses without roll-dodging (or parrying) with the right equipment.

>> No.5212708

>>5212519
These discussions are completely pointless unless you actually put forth a decent definition of what a game is yourself, then follow that up with defining what a video game is. The two can either be very similar or completely different depending on which definition you're working with. Plus you do agree that there exists such a thing as interactive entertainment software that doesn't contain a game within it, yet is labelled as a game, no?

>> No.5212828

>>5212708
Wittgenstein already wrote the final word on the definition of 'games' almost 100 years ago.

>> No.5212835

http://gamestudies.org/1401/articles/arjoranta

>> No.5212840

>>5212038
Cute response, tyke. I can tell you’re a real hardcore gamer. You ooze intensity...and body odor.
>If a game takes about an hour to complete, then half an hour is short
If the game takes around an hour to complete, then the game has a shorter runtime compared to other games. Nothing more. A half hour in ZAMN or Skyrim is still a moderate amount of time spent playing a game.
>just admit you’re a savestate using pussy
I use savestates when I know I’ll be away from the game for a while. Once I get back and load the savestate, it’s never touched again. It’s really no different than leaving the console on. There shouldn’t be a problem with that, unless you think the developers intended for my electric bill to be a couple bucks higher. Or work for PG&E.
>poor time management
I’d say I have better time management than you. I’m not the one who shuns a useful tool for a bit of e-cred when discussing a glorified children’s hobby.

>> No.5212975

>>5207669
Yes, pornographic drawings ARE indeed porn. I know what point you were hamfistedly trying to make, but you failed at it. Failed badly.

>> No.5212978

>>5212975
Th-thoughtcrime! Just because I jack off to drawings of little girls doesn’t mean I -actually- want to fuck them in real life!

>> No.5213091

>>5206679
I stopped at "artificial difficulty", and I still have a boat load of questions.

He kept talking about "checkpoint" but isn't the combination of live, continue and stages already one?

>> No.5213276

>>5206679
No interest in watching your video, probably some pathetic loser crying about not being able to beat Castlevania.

These games were supposed to be about skill. Getting good at the game and being able to sit down and play through the entire thing in a set number of lives was the fucking game. Clearing the game was the reward. If you get infinite retries from the point where you died, then what's the point? Mashing buttons until you see the end screen and then move on to the next game? Go read a book in that case, you'll probably enjoy it more.

Games are contests of skill and luck. People these days just want them to be interactive movies or something, with the rare exception of competitive online games. People want everything to be RPG-ified, instead of you the player becoming better at the game you just collect imaginary points doing simple repetitive tasks to make your character stronger and the game itself becomes trivial.

>> No.5213278

>>5212519
>But oh no, suddenly in 2010s The Gone Home drops, and suddenly we have some asshats clutching their pearls wondering if its is an REAL videosgame???!1!
You appear to be the emotional one clutching pearls, anon.

Adventure Games are games. In King's Quest you have the goal of finding 3 treasures to save the kingdom and you can die to get a game over. In Gone Home, there is no game scenario like that. There's no game objective, you just step into the shoes of a character and explore the environment to reveal the narrative. The "goal" in that sense is no different from making it to the end of a novel.

(Non-Game) Interactive Fiction is a subset of a more general category of a software simulator, where realistic accuracy takes precedence over abstract game rules. A professional pilot training simulator is not really a game. It's not designed for the sake of having fun. Although obviously simulators and games overlap because you can have a game designed as a simulator with a game on top.

Narrative and world-building elements in video games are often important for defining a gamespace. Those essential elements are made to be aesthetic and to convey meaning to players. In chess you don't have "piece that moves diagonally" you have "bishop." That bishop might be a simple token with a symbol etched on it, or it might be an elaborately carved figurine. So in Mega Man you have Mega Man and the Robot Masters and all the various named enemies and colorful stage themes. And so on.

You can still have "games," though, that become so full of narrative or simulator content that you start to lose cohesion, and it feels like a game and a novel (or anime/manga, whatever) smushed together rather than a game using narrative elements to establish a compelling gamespace. Look to Xenogears for a retro example.

>>5212828
no not really but nice pretense at appearing educated.

>> No.5213280

>>5206703
I dont necessarily agree with #1 although there were a lot of games out there that were just cash grabs, there were a few well designed games sprinkled throughout.

2 - 4 are absolutely true though. Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong and needs to get over their fascination on the idea that game designers were just trying to create difficult games "out of love" for gamers that modern day hipster indie developers misinterpret along with the idea that games were made with pixel design in mind.

>> No.5213298

>>5207851
It's interesting to me that you say the focus should be on "player courtship" and then completely ignore the typical experience of someone who plays solitaire and how much they really care about their win percentage.

>>5213280
>>5206703
Some specific game examples might help here.

>> No.5213334

>>5213298
Ninja Gaiden III was made to be harder in the US where you have limited continues, Contra Hard Corps gets rid of the lifebar from the Japanese version, Streets of Rage 3 was muuuuuuch harder than the Japanese version and forced you to play on higher difficulties to get the best ending where in Japan this was not the case.

Also, Resident Evil 1 was well documented about changes made from the original version. At one point, it was made that the inventory system wouldn't be linked at all and you had to run all the way back to the inventory that you put a certain item in and it was thankfully shot down by playtesters.

The director of the Lion King game also mentioned that he wanted to structure the game in a Easy, Normal, Hard pattern for every level you progress through, but higher ups demanded that the game needed to be harder because of worries that the game could be beat in a single rental, and that's why the second level was notoriously difficult. The game started off with a Easy, Hard, Hard pattern right off the bat.

>> No.5213563
File: 44 KB, 300x194, 300px-Nethack_releasing_a_djinni.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
5213563

>>5213280
>2 - 4 are absolutely true though.
No, none of it's true. The NES had few faithful arcade ports, and virtually none of them were as difficult as the originals. Only a handful of notable games had increased difficulty for the NA release, and a few even had the difficulty lowered.

The idea that a 30 minute game is "padded out" by its difficulty is totally a modern one, biased by the idea that you "beat" a game by viewing all of its content rather than developing the skill required to complete it. For me it's a disappointment when some modern indie game basically won't even LET you git gud, because your XP matters more than your skill, or there's no actual hard mode (or it's half-assed) because they know their primary audience just doesn't care. I don't really know what to tell somebody who's looking at Mario or Mega Man as a sadistically difficult game, or sees a week or two of regular play at a game you enjoy as an insane time investment.

As far as bad programming/design, that can just as easily make a game easier. And if anything, amateur-made games designed without a prophet motive in mind tend to be far more difficult.

So, whatever. Some people get mad and throw the controller and complain about the game cheating whenever they lose, nothing new.

>> No.5213684 [DELETED] 

>>5213563
Why’d you sage? Don’t want your opinion challenged?

>> No.5213773

>>5213334
>Contra Hard Corps gets rid of the lifebar from the Japanese version
No it doesn't, it ADDS a lifebar because the devs for some reason thought the japs were casuals that couldn't handle the original game. The US version was released first. It's likely that SoR and NG3 also had similar motives honestly

>> No.5213776

>>5213278
Sure, you don't have an explicit goal, but the implicit goal is to find out what happened, like in Myst. The only difference between the structure of King's Quest and Gone Home is that Gone Home has much more core collectibles (story bits) as its goal.

Also you mention King's Quest, but LucasArts (and similar) adventure games DON'T have an explict failure state, yet they're clearly games. But they have an IMPLICIT failure state - you fail in an adventure game when you can't progress and get stuck. The failure state is default and perpetual, and counteracted by making progress.
Similarly in Gone Home, not finding more story is an implicit failure state that you overcome by exploration.

You clearly haven't played much Interactive Fiction, most of them behave like straight up adventure games without graphics. There is nothing realistic or simulationist about the Babelfish puzzle from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

"Start to lose cohesion" badly implementing narrative into games is simply bad design, NOT something inherent to the medium. I would use Half Life or Call of Duty Modern Warfare as examples on how to perfectly integrate story into a videogame. Both of these games have quite a bit of narrative content, but because of brilliant 'narrative design', the story is impossible to divorce from the gameplay experience.

"feel more like a novel smushed together" that is not analysis, that is just your subjective opinion. Video games are multimedia, there is nothing wrong with incorporating text into your game - just like there's nothing wrong with graphics or music.

Also just so you know, you argue that King's Quest is a game - but Critpoints guy doesn't. He believes that puzzles are outside of the scope of games. He genuinely believes that all adventure games aren't real games - and neither is Tetris. That is insane, asinine, and pure revisionism, and he deserves criticism for this preposterous stance.

>> No.5213780

>>5213773
I thought only "hardcore gamers" bought the megadrive in Japan anyway, though?

>> No.5213783

>>5206703
>4. North American games had their difficultly ramped way the fuck up so you couldn't beat them in a single rental. Video game rentals were illegal in Japan so they didn't have to do this.

I'd love to believe this but i'd need to hear it the horse's mouth. Has any notable dev of the era ever said as much in an interview?

>> No.5213784

>>5213780
The devs at Konami didn't think so apparently

>> No.5213793

It is currently in vogue to consider trying and failing a section many times to master it "a waste of time" while considering backtracking, walking through long empty areas, or doing the exact same quest over and over again "content".

The retarded thing is considering that a fact instead of an opinion.

>> No.5213794

>>5213776
>Also just so you know, you argue that King's Quest is a game - but Critpoints guy doesn't. He believes that puzzles are outside of the scope of games
Complete nonsense, link the article where he states this. This is something you incorrectly inferred from his writing. Tetris isn't even a fucking puzzle, it's a complex dynamic problem solving game with massive emphasis on execution and an incredibly large number of different outcomes. Puzzles are distinct from games but they can be incorporated within the framework of a game, an adventure game is exactly that it takes puzzles and combines/interlinks them to form a game. This is all very shallow analysis of his writing to be honest, you're not actually bringing anything but disbelief to the table. In order to talk about game design you need to establish solid definitions, bringing up Wittgenstein's thoughts on definitions as a whole does no such thing.

>> No.5213805

>>5213783
Working Designs increased the difficulty of their games so people didnt beat and return them since return policies were different back then.

>> No.5213813

>>5213776
>Sure, you don't have an explicit goal, but the implicit goal is to find out what happened, like in Myst
That's an important difference. Games are either designed around goals or avoidance of failure state and often both. Reading every page of a book is an implicit goal, but you're not playing a game you're just reading the book for the story.
>Similarly in Gone Home, not finding more story is an implicit failure state that you overcome by exploration.
This is more like getting bored with a novel and abandoning it.

>You clearly haven't played much Interactive Fiction, most of them behave like straight up adventure games without graphics
then maybe they count as games?
Again I'm not the one with my panties in a bunch here because of the Gone Home controversy. The simple fact is that there is a line between game and not-game, even if it is a blurry line. It's quite obvious that certain kinds of text-based adventure games (or CYOA gamebooks) are right on that boundary. Some are closer to it than others.

>> No.5213814

>>5213776
>Also just so you know, you argue that King's Quest is a game - but Critpoints guy doesn't
yeah I didn't watch/read Critpoints (was that the OP video or something else?)

>> No.5213862

>>5213813
>reading every page of a book is an implicit goal
No, it's not?! According to who, what? What are the systems that propel you to reach that goal? The concept of reading books is *external* to the book itself, it's not derived FROM the book. For someone who can't read, a book would be meaningless scraps of papers.

Gone Home has PLENTY of systems - you can walk, look around, and interact with objects, and examine them closely. Interacting with objects is the most exciting, so your natural drive will be to find more objects to interact with - just like in SMB1, because you start at the left of the screen, your natural instinct will be to go right. That's game design. How is it not a game if it uses game design?

There is a line between game and not-game, but Gone Home is DEEPLY in the game territory. If you were arguing about kinetic visual novels - then I could agree with you. Because in kinetic visual novels (kinetic - the kind where there are no choices or interactions), there is only one action you can take - go forward. They're basically audiovisual comics.

Gone Home is an adventure game that uses an extreme version of an approach called 'reductive design'. Reductive design exists when you take a core idea for a game and remove *everything* that doesn't directly contribute to the core of the experience. A great pioneer of this principle is Fumito Ueda - for example, Ico doesn't have a healthbar - your failure state in combat is if the shadow demons take away princess you're protecting, Yorda.

Gone Home is simply an adventure game, seemingly inspired by Ueda's approach, that applies an extreme version of reductive design - because puzzles do not directly contribute to a story in an adventure game, let's remove most of the puzzles. Please explain to me how taking a game, and applying certain game design principles to it can result in "not a game"? That's ridiculous.

>> No.5213868

>>5213814
Nah, he was mentioned before. I first encountered him because of this thread. He believes that story and puzzles are outside of the scope of games, which is silly.

>> No.5213870

>>5213813
>The simple fact is that there is a line between game and not-game, even if it is a blurry line.
Yeah, we know that line:
Things I like = games | Things I don't like = not games

Same old dance.

>> No.5213880
File: 9 KB, 200x200, 1462557280055.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
5213880

The mutt versions of NES games were indeed too unfairly hard. The Japanese versions had perfectly fine difficulty though. The best example is Castlevania 3, which is unplayable garbage if it isn't the Jap version. This was the case because companies were worried about consumers beating the games in just one rental, so they cranked up the difficulty in these games to prevent that from happening. Literally artificial difficulty. Game renting isn't allowed in Japan, so they didn't need to worry about that.

>> No.5213898

>>5213870
you're an idiot

>> No.5213902

>>5213880
Grant is too good in the famicom version.

>> No.5213903

>>5213862
Gone Homo isn't DEEPLY in the game territory, it's barely in the game territory because it provides an end goal. Without it, it's simply a simulation of an environment which naturally gives the person engaging with it implicit goals due to human nature. Same as a UI makes the user gravitate towards certain options and prioritize them above all else. It's hardly "game design". Simply saying "how can it be not be a game if it uses game design" isn't good enough by any means, game design is an incredibly broad field that borrows a lot of its principles from other fields that have nothing to do with games.

>> No.5213917 [DELETED] 

>>5213880
I disagree, cv3 is playable even with the localization bulls hit added in. It certainly wasn’t fucking unplayable compared to other nes games that were butchered from localization such as The adventures of Bayou Billy.

>> No.5213924

>>5213880
I disagree. CV3 is certainly playable even with the localization bullshit added in. It’s bullshit but it certainly is still playable and beatable. It certainly didn’t get completely shat on like some other games The adventures of bayou billy
>>5213902
Grant is arguably better in the localized version if you know how to use his knife. You can stunlock bosses with his short range knife. I’m JP he just has an infinite use dagger as his default weapon. So he’s better for casual play in the jp version.

>> No.5213964

>>5213773
No, Sor3 released in Japan first, and I have provided many examples of how and why games were made harder, especially outside of Japan. Keep grabbing all the straws you can, it won't help you.

>> No.5213980

>>5213964
That doesn't mean much, what you have to understand is that back then the tweaks for different regions were made for very different reasons that are case specific, a lot of the time they were effectively patches the developers made that fixed a lot of bugs and issues they found, which low difficulty could be part of. It's just easy to take a cynical look at it but there's no way to tell outside of actual dev interviews and such. I mean I bet you were sure that your Hard Corps example was legit too

>> No.5213997

>>5213980
>HAHAHAHA, THIS GAME RELEASED BEFORE JAPAN FIRST! THEREFORE, THAT MUST MEAN THAT THEY DIDNT PLAN AHEAD FOR THE JAPANESE RELEASE EVEN THOUGH KONAMI HAS HAD A HISTORY OF RELEASING GAMES HARDER IN THE WEST! I SURE SHOWED HIM!

>> No.5214005

>>5213997
They talked about it in an interview though, also
>series is known for 1 hit kills
>US version came first and has 1 hit kills
>jap version came out after and is the first game in the series with a health bar something almost no games later kept
>somehow the jap version is the REAL one
Imagine actually believing this crap

>> No.5214061

>>5214005
This reminds me of Ninja Gaiden III for the NES, the Japanese version is much easier with infinite continues, which came out only a couple of months earlier.

>> No.5214394

Thoughts on Dunkey's new video?
A bit similar to Snowman's, but better imo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY-_dsTlosI

>> No.5214442

>>5213563
>The idea that a 30 minute game is "padded out" by its difficulty is totally a modern one
The hilarious part is that modern games are the ones that are padded to hell and back. Be it by environments being so needlessly big that you can literally run through several minutes of nothing happening, or by rpg-style grind bars being everyfuckingwhere.

>> No.5214458

>>5214394
look this threads already about one no-namebrand e-"celeb" we don't need another literal who's wrong take on things.

>> No.5214497

>>5213917
>>5213924
Bayou Billy is far more fun than Mad City, which is way too easy for its on good

>> No.5214503

>>5214442
This is the consequence of the one-and-done mentality. A massive subset of casuals just thinks it's bad to repeat games and lose progress, so instead of longevity from challenge and depth they just get longevity from amount of content which is padded as fuck since there's no reasonable way for developers to create 100 hours of unique content without rehashing. I mean, if you look at retro games including the NES the option to make such games was always available, developers could make bland massive dungeons recycling the same times that repeat the same enemy non stop just to make their games longer but they didn't because that's boring.

>> No.5214560

>>5214503
>Blobbers

>> No.5214567

>>5209312
I only use Savestates as quicksaves when I can't reach a savepoint in time.

>> No.5214578

>>5206679
>MUH LIVES

Stopped watching there. That argument is literally being mad that you have to play the game and there isn't a big faggot "I win" button you can immediately slap when things get rough. You're not entitled to progression.

>> No.5214589

>>5209919
Life happens, NEET. Sometimes I have to stop and do shit. Like get/chop wood, walk my dogs, go get something from the store real quick. I will drop a game in 10 seconds if I have actual life shit to take care of. I guess you never have shit pop up in your life, you fucking nothing person.

>> No.5214592

>>5214497
Bayou Billy is fucking garbage.

>> No.5214601

>>5213924
Grant's main advantage is his mobility. Throwing knifes perfectly complement this ability. You can easily remove some annoyingly placed ennemies with it if Trevor lost his secondary weapon. Since he's so short he also has blind spots against bosses and then you can you throw your knife to the other end of the screen until they die.

>> No.5214604

>>5207323
Extra Credits is fucking cringe.
I hate the shitty drawings, the dude's numale voice, and his opinions are pure distilled reddit.
It is the Funko Pop of youtube gaming channels.

>> No.5214623

>>5214604
Isn't Extra Credits the corporate dick sucking channel with those "actually players don't give enough money to publishers" videos?

>> No.5215346

Blame Doom for why we don't have NES difficulty anymore.
It was the first major action game on any platform to forgo lives and game over states, and also had the ability to save at any time. The only punishment upon death was losing your shit that you had picked up, and the manual encouraged saving often so new players wouldn't get fucked on later levels.

>> No.5215410
File: 1.55 MB, 850x1200, file.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
5215410

>>5215346
I think it was mostly the death of arcades that did it. Don't forget that most NES developers were arcade developers first, there's also the ill fated NES-based arcade units like PlayChoice 10 and Vs. System. The Game Boy and later GBC had more "modern" games by comparison, they had larger scopes and more defined mechanics since the developers have had a decade or so of experience. Just compare Zelda 1 to Link's Awakening, or SMB3 to Wario Land. I don't think those games could be done in the NES era, technology notwithstanding.

>> No.5215427

I don’t care what some fat söyboy faggot thinks.

>> No.5217227

Castlevania 3 is the best classicvania hands down.

>> No.5217367

>>5206679
I can't trust a guy who cannot even beat Mario 3.

I am casual as fuck to the point that I literally cannot beat castlevania (well, I got to death, but that is) or makai mura (ok, I beat the first loop though), but I can beat mario 3 effortlessly.

>> No.5217426

>>5207389
lol

>> No.5217487
File: 63 KB, 1280x720, her disgust.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
5217487

>>5206679
>dissing NES games
>channel intro logo has a fucking NES controller

>So what's the big deal with NES games? Well at their worst they essentially replicate the arcade experience in your home.

Stopped watching right there. This guy is fucking pitiful.

All you need to know is "artificial difficulty" is an obfuscatory anticoncept designed to conceal leftist intentions.

Global Warming=deindustrialization of White nations
Land Reform=genocide of the middle class
Artificial Difficulty=adulteration of games to replace original gamer demographic with retards and women

>> No.5217501

>>5206679

How much of a contrarian do you have to be?

"URGH MEGA MAN 1 GUTS MAN ELEVATORS, THHUHSOJIDF IT'S BAD GAME!!"

>> No.5217635

>>5217487
>obfuscatory anticoncept designed to conceal leftist intentions
That's just the kind of thing a leftist would say

>> No.5217650

>>5217487

The only correct post in this thread.

>> No.5218347

Classic NES titles are the bane of many millenials and Gen-Z. The Dark Souls of consoles.
I would maybe listen to his points if he didn't put all games on the same bag and acted like such a snarky douchebag about it. What a piece of shit.
I'm visibly angry now, thanks OP.

>> No.5218407

>>5217487
Anon did you try to kill yourself by overdosing on crimson-colored capsules?

>> No.5218419

>>5206909
>>5207172
>>5209285
he said he only used savestates to save time.

seeing as he was streaming it at the time, he didn't want to waste his viewer's time by playing the same thing over and over again, which a game-over would make him do.

this is completely reasonable.

>> No.5218429

>>5218419
Maybe don't be beholden to the entertainment of viewers?
You can't simultaneously try and make an "analytical video" but also use weak excuses like this to handwave why you won't play a game the normal way.

Using save states in the one, and only game you played for the sake of this video makes any point you're attempting to make, moot. I refuse to take this dork's video seriously.

>> No.5218431
File: 401 KB, 1200x800, infected mushrooms.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
5218431

>>5206679
Why is this shitty thread still alive? reeeeeee

>> No.5218459

>>5218431
because game difficulty is an interesting topic even if OP's shilled video sucks a thousand dicks

>> No.5218467

>>5218419
I'm a streamer too and yeah I get that, but he also fancies himself a "game critic" or "game analyst". Why should people give a fuck about his opinions on video games when he does stuff like that? I emulate games all the time and if I get to a tedious part in a game that I could circumvent with savestates, I consider that to be just as important a part of the game to experience to form proper judgement as the more enjoyable parts. If my viewers don't like it, that sucks, but I also put a lot of thought into which games I'm gonna stream and which ones I'll play off-stream.

>> No.5218527

>>5206703
Pretty much every successful game has some feature to increase length. difficulty, story, size, none of these are bad things as long as they are done well.

I agree that arcade games were often made hard not for enjoyment but to get those quarters, but hey they can't all be gems.

Again,that sort of padding is not necessarily bad. Many would argue difficulty is a better way to pad your game than modern methods.

This board spends way to much time shitting on modern games for what amounts to stylistic choices and personal preference, but this is the same. Some people like compact, hard gameplay.

>> No.5218557

>>5206679
>same cuckold who trashed on Cuphead and Crash Bandicoot for the same reasons, but sucked Bennett Foddy's cock and its pretentious and trashy game also for the same reasons
Why do people like this moron?

>> No.5218568

>>5218557
And don't forget that this faggot claims that nu-God of War is a masterpiece of game design. Can't believe these people.

>> No.5218597

>>5218419
I stream too.
I went the wrong way in Parasite Eve after the last boss. I died.

Guess what? I didn't bitch or moan, I pony'd up and did the last boss again, and went the right away after making sure I knew the route the second time around.

"saving time" during a stream is irrelevant. He skipped 90% of the game. He did a glorified speedrun except he wasn't skilled enough to do it.

I understand the dynamic of not wanting to take too long during a stream.

He's a gamecuck. He thinks he's all that, but he's not willing to put in the time or effort to learn.

>> No.5218605
File: 86 KB, 640x360, Game Center CX NC17 - Balloon Fight.avi-2015-07-13-12h12m16s491.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
5218605

>>5206679
https://youtu.be/3qdRzxmgYWo?t=250

>> No.5218645

>>5218431
Stop bumping the thread and learn to sage.

>> No.5218750
File: 221 KB, 500x612, psylocke.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
5218750

>>5218597
Yeah you can avoid the problem by not being a huge faggot and making claims you can't support.

>> No.5218807 [DELETED] 

>>5218407
You want a redpill overdose?
Here is pure heroin:
https://aeolipera.wordpress.com/2018/02/28/evidence-for-manbonobopig-theory-of-melonheads-100-kya-behavioral-revolution-coincides-with-genetic-divergence/

>> No.5218810

>>5218407
You want a redpill overdose?
Here is pure heroin:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150905192250/http://www.koanicsoul.com/blog/2015/08/31/boar-raped-bonobo-first-human-the-horrifying-implications/

>> No.5218889

dudes a retarded faggot

>> No.5219118

>>5217501
MM1 is a bad game, and I don't know anyone who ever likes playing it, but its of no fault of those platforms. Dudes out of his gaming element when it comes to NES games.

>> No.5219123

i'm glad the master system is so goddamn lowkey that its games never even register in the minds of these chucklefuck "analysts". go on, do continue shitting on the nes the only old/8bit console there ever was

>> No.5219126

>>5219123
The SMS would only register if it had any games worth remembering.

>> No.5219695

>>5218419
that's literally the point of nes games that ARE worth playing. To repeat them until you're good. bad NES games you repeat, but they never get easier because they're CHEAP. That's what he doesn't understand. every "good" game from the era is like that. Fuck, even rpgs are grindfests where you need to experiment to find what works.

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