How come the Apple II isn't as popular with retrofags as the C64, Amiga, Spectrum, Atari 8-bits, and stuff? Pretty much the birth of the personal computer gaming industry happened there.

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Anonymous Sat Oct 20 22:42:58 2018 No.5114384 [Reply] [Original]

How come the Apple II isn't as popular with retrofags as the C64, Amiga, Spectrum, Atari 8-bits, and stuff? Pretty much the birth of the personal computer gaming industry happened there.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 20 23:05:20 2018 No.5114425 The games are too primitive to still be enjoyable and I don't think as many people had them as the other machines.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 20 23:16:24 2018 No.5114460 >>5114384 The Apple II has an enormous and active hobbyist community in the US.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 20 23:22:45 2018 No.5114473 Thing is, a lot of those low end home computers were just used as video game consoles with keyboards. Many people never really did any programming or productive stuff with them.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 20 23:26:43 2018 No.5114478 >>5114473 retards who learned how to change the collor of the screen on EMACS and thought that meant they could code

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 20 23:33:02 2018 No.5114486 >>5114473 Apple IIs were expensive so you generally bought them to do actual computer stuff.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 20 23:41:52 2018 No.5114507 Gee, I dunno. My dad said most people he knew back then with a computer had a C64 or Atari 8-bit, he didn't know any Apple II owners.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 20 23:52:28 2018 No.5114524 Can't plant those nostalgia seeds if everyone's buying your competitor's cheaper machines to do their fun nostalgia-sowing activities instead.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 00:07:05 2018 No.5114536 >>5114524 They sold like 6 million Apple IIs and the things were on the market 14 years.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 00:18:19 2018 No.5114549 IDK, most of the time when you ask someone about an Apple II, he'll just go "Oh yeah I used to play Math Munchers on that at school."

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 00:29:31 2018 No.5114569 >>5114425 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBW3zYTk-_c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6M_dRb492U /thread

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 00:29:32 2018 No.5114570 File: 79 KB, 1280x720, Greenscreen.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I had one friend that owned an Apple II, the only Game I vividly remember on it was Karateka

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 00:33:20 2018 No.5114575 >>5114570 Karateka was a game designed around the Apple, so that's obviously the best platform to play it on. Most retro games are like that. They had a target platform and everything else was a port that just didn't feel the same.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 00:46:14 2018 No.5114587 For example, many Broderbund and Sierra games were aimed at the Apple II. Microprose and LucasArts targeted the C64. Origin were an Apple-focused company. Many of the early Electronic Arts games were designed around the Atari 8-bit.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 00:55:52 2018 No.5114597 >>5114536 Mainly to business and education. C64 sold well over twice that in 12 years, and more notably most of it was home users.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 00:57:16 2018 No.5114603 It seems the Apple II did better in some areas of the country especially California which was in Apple's backyard and which was a wealthy state where people could afford their premium-priced hardware.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 00:59:48 2018 No.5114605 It wasn't popular in Europe because too expensive and completely disk-based so a huge amount of the home computer market never got tapped into.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 01:02:26 2018 No.5114607 They're definitely built better than C64s and you're less likely to come across a dead one.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 01:11:26 2018 No.5114616 It's not very demo-friendly because of how limited the hardware is. Coding anything more than text mode stuff requires you to have a god-level command of 6502 assembly language and the end result will be far less impressive than a C64.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 01:22:57 2018 No.5114620 >>5114384 A lot of people don't like them because they were made by a currently extant company that is widely disliked by many people, while Commodore and Atari are no longer with us so it's harder to hate them.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 01:38:02 2018 No.5114631 IDK, any book about the history of the personal computer industry will invariably have much more to say about the Apple II than Commodore or Atari.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 01:40:55 2018 No.5114636 File: 4 KB, 560x384, 89737.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Apple II version of Space Rogue was dope af. It's kind of amazing how good Origin was at working around the machine's technical limitations

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 01:46:22 2018 No.5114638 >>5114636 As someone said, Origin were an Apple-centered developer so many of their games are best played on there.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 01:53:35 2018 No.5114645 >>5114636 If you're playing those larger adventures or RPGs, the disk access is 1 million times faster than on the C64.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 01:57:52 2018 No.5114650 >>5114645 The majority of C64 owners were already used tapes because they were cheap

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 02:03:58 2018 No.5114654 >>5114650 >The majority of C64 owners were already used tapes Wait, are we talking America or Yurop here?

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 02:07:04 2018 No.5114657 >>5114654 Worldwide. Hell even in the US the datasette was still pretty common because of the disk drive's expense.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 02:09:27 2018 No.5114658 >>5114657 >Hell even in the US the datasette was still pretty common because of the disk drive's expense. Nobody anywhere used cassettes after 1983. About 90% of NTSC C64 software was disk-based.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 02:17:23 2018 No.5114660 >>5114645 C64 fast loaders helped a lot, but it could still never match the Apple II's drives for speed because of how simple and low-latency they were.

Anonymous Sun Oct 21 02:27:39 2018 No.5114670

>>5114660
The Apple II on the whole is lower latency than the C64 due to its architecture. On the original II/II+ there's just TTL chips. On the IIe, they consolidated several system functions into custom ASICs. During testing, Apple engineers found that the latency was increased a bit because of this so the IIe's clock speed was bumped up slightly to compensate.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 02:41:27 2018 No.5114681 >>5114620 >>5114631 The spreadsheet was invented on an Apple II. That alone was a milestone of computing history.

Anonymous Sun Oct 21 02:49:59 2018 No.5114696

>>5114384
>How come the Apple II isn't as popular with retrofags as the C64, Amiga, Spectrum, Atari 8-bits, and stuff?
because it's nothing to do with the birth of personal computer gaming.

Never knew anyone with an Apple oe Apple II.

>everyone I knew either had a Speccy or 64, and later many had either an ST or Amiga (when this occured many also had a Sewga Master System and later a SNES or MegaDrive).

Was Apple an American thing ? before you all bought the NES? It seems Americans lived a bubble.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 03:01:06 2018 No.5114713 >>5114696 >>5114658 >>5114650 Please do not spam threads with discussion of irrelevant Yurocomputers. Thank you.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 03:11:41 2018 No.5114726 >>5114696 >because it's nothing to do with the birth of personal computer gaming. Aside from how the graphic adventure, CPRG, and flight simulator were invented on it?

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 03:14:43 2018 No.5114727 Apple II >Irrelevant outside of some particular areas of North America >Expensive >Not build for gaming C64 >Famous worldwide >Cheap >Marketed as a gaming machine from the start geez I wonder OP

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 03:23:14 2018 No.5114732 >>5114727 >Not build for gaming Most of its peculiar design features came about because Steve Wozniak wanted to play Breakout. At least until the C64 became popular, it was the center of computer gaming.

Anonymous Sun Oct 21 03:49:48 2018 No.5114759
File: 163 KB, 853x1043, apple-ii-1981.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5114384
To some extent, easier to get into the Atari 8bit and Commodore since they have a cartridge slot, Amigas have floppy drives built in. Spectrums I assume you can interface any tape player.

Unless you go the //c route, getting an Apple II up to full glory requires a bit more work to put together. and overall is more unwieldy.

Grew up on a //e, have a IIGS and //c, but can't be assed to pull them out of storage.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 04:02:08 2018 No.5114765 >>5114759 >Spectrums I assume you can interface any tape player. Can be done on an Apple II as well. You can run a lot of single load games this way, not the bigger multiload stuff of course.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 04:09:39 2018 No.5114771 They were the target platform for Ultima and Wizardry, so the Apple originals are the definitive way to play those games.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 06:01:00 2018 No.5114856 >>5114765 Yea. But you have to be a really oldfag to have memories of loading Apple // software from cassette. Loading C64 games from tape was pretty common for some time.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 06:19:01 2018 No.5114862 >>5114384 Because it's like NES - a purely American thing to wank around, mostly put in schools anyway. Not to mention being pretty expensive back in the day. >>5114536 >He thinks that's impressive in any way

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 06:29:19 2018 No.5114869 File: 6 KB, 562x386, 43911-wizardry-proving-grounds-of-the-mad-overlord-apple-ii-screenshot.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5114771 But almost every later port is vastly superior.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 10:08:31 2018 No.5115067 >>5114384 Because you only know retrofags who are tards like you?

Anonymous Sun Oct 21 10:24:49 2018 No.5115081
File: 98 KB, 560x384, 266898-might-and-magic-ii-gates-to-another-world-apple-ii-screenshot.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5114696
>Was Apple an American thing ?

not exclusively, but Americans definitely had the best experience with the Apple2 since NTSC video encoding had exploitable quirks it could use to fake color output from extremely high resolution patterns of black + white dots. The trick didn't work with PAL video though, so euro users were stuck with monochrome only.

Anonymous Sun Oct 21 10:28:35 2018 No.5115086
File: 3 KB, 640x400, number-munchers_13.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5114549
Wow, spot on anon. I use to play number muncher on the old apple in the corner of my classroom. Other than that, i was far ,pre interested in my dad's c64 and early PC stuff, and snes.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:03:15 2018 No.5115431 >>5114862 >>5114713

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:04:37 2018 No.5115434 The Apple II and C64 were the two 8-bit giants, they sold almost 20 million units combined. All else was a fringe player.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:09:55 2018 No.5115448 >>5114869 The C64 port has horrible load times, the PC port is buggy, and don't even go near the NES Wizardrys.

Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:11:43 2018 No.5115453

Sir-Tech for the longest time refused to do any ports of Wizardry. Their excuse was that the C64's disk drive was too slow and the Atari's disks were too small. They did port it on the PC and Mac in 1984-85, but there wasn't any C64 version until 87 and it's really a C128 game.

Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:14:46 2018 No.5115461

>>5114856
>Loading C64 games from tape was pretty common for some time
Really it was only a thing for the first 6-8 months the thing was on the market and not that many people had C64s in the beginning. Sales really took off in mid-83 when the early shortages of 1541 drives were overcome and they became cheap and widely available.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:15:50 2018 No.5115463 >>5114605 Plus there was the Amiga over there - famous for shovel ware and eurojank.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:19:23 2018 No.5115476 The Apple II only had one joystick which put the kibosh on doing two player games like Bubble Bobble and it was also analog, which stinks for doing arcade stuff.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:19:45 2018 No.5115478 >>5115448 There's a dozen more ports you seem to ignore.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:21:45 2018 No.5115482 >>5115453 The main reason the ultimately ported it was to tap into the Japanese market. The IBM and C64 version were just side effects.

Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:22:07 2018 No.5115483 [DELETED]

>>5114726
Yuros are FURIOUS that their failed Amiga experiment resulted in garbage that is globally shunned and the video game industry never took off there like in the US or Japan.

"Live in a bubble" he says when he's citing the dogshit Amiga as a relevant milestone in any metric lmao

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:23:50 2018 No.5115486 >>5115478 I guess there were a couple of ports on irrelevant machines like the Wonderswan that were only found in Japan, but w/e.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:24:52 2018 No.5115487 >>5115483 The Amiga was designed by Americans though; in fact the same people who made the Atari 8-bit chipset.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:25:24 2018 No.5115489 >>5115486 There's no point to play anything but the Japanese versions.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:34:07 2018 No.5115505 >>5115487 Yeah I don't think Europeans had any real indigenous platforms except the Spectrum and Amstrad.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:35:57 2018 No.5115508 >>5115505 Acorn had the BBC Micro and Archimedes.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:37:02 2018 No.5115512 >>5114726 Not to mention all the important developers like Sierra, Origin, SSI, Sir-Tech, and Broderbund who started out making Apple II games.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:38:31 2018 No.5115515 >>5115486 Irrelevant machines like SuperFamicom or PCEngine?

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:39:39 2018 No.5115518 >>5115515 I don't think the PC Engine was much of a factor desu.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:40:51 2018 No.5115519 >>5114759 Oh fug, I see he has a copy of the infamous 101 BASIC Spaghetti Code Games.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:42:33 2018 No.5115523 >>5115508 Fleet box for schools. Britain's Apple II. Nobody had the things at home though.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:51:05 2018 No.5115535 >>5115453 The Atari 8-bits suffered a lot from developers' insistence on supporting 48k 800s and 810 disk drives instead of the 800XL and 1050. For example, Ultima IV had no music because they couldn't be arse-barged to code it for the 800XL.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:53:41 2018 No.5115537 The Apple II's disks were hella fast compared to anything else and it was impossible to create a copy protection scheme with them that nobody could break.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 15:57:33 2018 No.5115546 I think back in the day, people took Apple more seriously than they did Commodore and Atari. They just perceived the latter as toys and not "real" computers.

Anonymous Sun Oct 21 16:01:18 2018 No.5115553

I do kind of admire the Apple II conceptually. It was based around a similar philosophy to the Spectrum, which was to just take a CPU and attach some RAM, a video generator circuit, and a little bit of supporting logic to tie everything together. Quite unlike the C64 and Amiga and their complex custom chipsets.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 16:03:30 2018 No.5115557 File: 187 KB, 1283x911, CDE06A4F-4F5A-48F8-BB82-CA33CCDD5C83.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5114713 Correct.

Anonymous Sun Oct 21 16:05:46 2018 No.5115563

>>5115553
Commodore and Atari were big companies trying to make a mass-market product and they had loads of money to throw at it. Steve Wozniak was a neckbeard in a garage trying to build a computer to play Breakout on using whatever parts he could buy cheaply, since this was in the 70s when hardware prices were really high.

The C64 came out half a decade after the Apple II. Things were a lot cheaper in 1982 than they'd been in 77 and technology had advanced quite a bit as well.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 16:06:30 2018 No.5115567 >formatting it "Apple II" >not the correct "apple ]["

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 16:12:09 2018 No.5115576 >>5115567 Apple 2

Anonymous Sun Oct 21 16:23:07 2018 No.5115596

>>5115546
They absolutely did. Watch Computer Chronicles from back then if you want to see that attitude on full display. On the rare occasions they'd feature a Commodore or Atari machine, they'd preface the segment with something like "You may have thought these machines were just cheap toys for children, but check out this useful thing they can do!"

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 16:26:50 2018 No.5115607 >>5115563 That was the entire mythos of it. Woz and Jobs made for more romantic figures (of sorts) than Jack Tramiel's "Would you buy a used car from this man?" vibe.

Anonymous Sun Oct 21 16:33:17 2018 No.5115619

You get the impression that Commodore and Atari's management didn't think much in terms of anything other than next Christmas season's sales. They didn't have the vision or long-term planning of Apple. For example, the idea that if they had Apple machines in schools, kids who used them would grow up to buy an Apple someday.

Commodore were thinking in terms of months, Apple were thinking in decades.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 16:55:23 2018 No.5115653 >>5115505 Holy fuck that's pathetic. Thank God for the Japs.

Anonymous Sun Oct 21 17:05:22 2018 No.5115674
File: 529 KB, 3840x2160, 105A6F92-39FA-4D5F-A97D-9A6EAC0561FB.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I found this quote online once and tracked it down to an old Playboy magazine interview. If your into Apple 2 or want to see the computer market how was back in the day google this quote. Also, in case your wondering there’s not a lot about Japanese computers in this interview, and he doesn’t have a lot of nice things to say about them, but you have to admit he ended up being spot on about the Japanese.

Anonymous Sun Oct 21 17:21:29 2018 No.5115710
File: 83 KB, 500x391, archon.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5115476
You could interface two joysticks, but it required additional hardware to break out the lines from the Game IO port. So naturally not many games supported it. There were 4 paddle lines and 3 game buttons. The Sirius Joyport also worked out a way to read two digital joysticks, but the method was slightly incompatible with the //e.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 19:04:38 2018 No.5115901 >>5115505 Olivetti?

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 19:06:39 2018 No.5115904 As an arcade games machine, the Apple II peaked in 1982-84. As arcade games evolved into NES-style side scrollers, the aging Apple couldn't keep up with that so most games became much slower-paced CRPGs and strategy titles.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 19:09:14 2018 No.5115906 >>5115453 For some reason they also couldn't be bothered to update the graphics past crude wire frames except on the Mac port where they were forced to completely redo the graphics and UI.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 19:22:34 2018 No.5115941 >>5115086 That's the PC port of NM, not the Apple original.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 19:28:21 2018 No.5115952 There's nothing beyond educational shit worth playing on it that you can't find on other computers

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 20:28:56 2018 No.5116072 YOU HAVE DIED OF DYSENTERY

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 20:43:27 2018 No.5116094 >>5115710 You could also do same with a PC game port, in that case a Y-splitter cable or a card with two ports was required.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 20:49:21 2018 No.5116106 >>5115546 Apparently Sierra thought so because they mostly shunned non-Apple and PC machines.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 20:52:48 2018 No.5116114 >>5116106 Ken Williams also co-authored a book on Apple II graphics programming.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 20:55:07 2018 No.5116119 The Apple II was an expensive business machine in Europe and nobody had them at home. It was also used in schools, especially in Germany.

Anonymous Sun Oct 21 20:59:34 2018 No.5116129

>>5114759
>"Sixth grader Chad Heiling works at programming one of the computers as normal classroom activities go on behind him. At Driftwood Elementary."

This was back when schools still had the 6th grade as part of elementary rather than middle school.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 21:01:39 2018 No.5116136 >>5116129 Schools here still do.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 21:08:33 2018 No.5116145 >>5116129 Why exactly was it changed anyway?

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 21:19:35 2018 No.5116154 Have you even seen any Apple II games running? They're just purple and green shit with clicking sounds for music.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 22:23:05 2018 No.5116287 >still charging $1200 for an 8-bit computer as late as 1988

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 22:28:22 2018 No.5116293 >>5114384 > How come the Apple II isn't as popular because it's fucking horrible.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 22:32:05 2018 No.5116301 >>5116293 It's not any worse than the Zed Exx Spectrum.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 22:36:26 2018 No.5116313 >>5115434 >>5114713 >>5114726 >>5114636 >>5114631 >>5114658 Why do Americans think the entire world revolves around them?

Anonymous Sun Oct 21 22:43:10 2018 No.5116328

>>5116301
it's worse.
>>5116313
because they're retards.
oh. speaking of retards..
>>5114658
> Nobody anywhere used cassettes after 1983
was used in europe well after 1983.
> About 90% of NTSC C64 software was disk-based.
most PAL software was too, faggot.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 22:45:04 2018 No.5116330 >>5116301 The Spectrum was primitive rubbish but at least it was priced accordingly. Something like the Apple II was primitive rubbish that you had to be rich to afford.

Anonymous Sun Oct 21 22:48:07 2018 No.5116334

>>5115619
>For example, the idea that if they had Apple machines in schools
commodore were doing the exact same damn thing.
>kids who used them would grow up to buy an Apple someday.
sadly for apple, not all kids grow up to be computer illiterate morons
>Apple were thinking in decades.
absolute horse shit. you've bought into corporate mythology based in the land of fantasy and fucking make believe.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 22:49:39 2018 No.5116337 >>5116334 >commodore were doing the exact same damn thing After the PET, Commodore didn't have any presence in the educational market.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 22:49:45 2018 No.5116338 >>5116330 >Something like the Apple II was primitive rubbish that you had to be rich to afford it was a computer for rich retards.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 22:50:48 2018 No.5116342 >>5116337 > After the PET, Commodore didn't have any presence in the educational market. > Hi, I'm retarded. What is the Commodore 64, one of the best selling computers all time?

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 22:54:50 2018 No.5116352 >>5116342 Believe me, Apple had an iron grip on the school market. You really didn't see C64s used in schools much if at all.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 22:57:39 2018 No.5116354 As someone else said, the West Coast was evidently the biggest market for the Apple II outside of schools since it was in Apple's backyard and people there tended to be pretty wealthy.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 23:00:11 2018 No.5116360 It was expensive because you paid for Apple's software and tech support which Commodore did not have at all.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 23:03:08 2018 No.5116365 Much better as a productivity machine than the C64, definitely not as good at gaming.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 23:05:14 2018 No.5116369 >>5116330 It actually had disk drives, a real keyboard, expansion slots, and stuff like that.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 23:11:01 2018 No.5116379 Computer games were like £4-£12 and you swapped game cassettes with your friends at school like Pokemon cards. For some reason, Americans think paying some unholy amount of dosh for computers and games was necessary.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 23:14:37 2018 No.5116384 >>5116379 You got an actual professionally-made game that didn't have bugs that would cause the computer to lock up and wasn't made by some 17 year old on a $30 budget?

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 23:20:00 2018 No.5116396 All the great C64 musicians and demo coders are European. Why can't Americans do that?

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 23:24:11 2018 No.5116403 >>5116379 Yeah man, quantity over quality!

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 23:26:40 2018 No.5116406 >>5116379 Whatever. American kids swapped pirated game floppies like fucking crazy.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 23:42:55 2018 No.5116420 >>5116396 Europeans: Great coders, bad game designers

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 23:45:35 2018 No.5116425 Yeah they were everywhere in schools in the 80s, but people were far more likely to have a C64 at home.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 21 23:48:34 2018 No.5116428 >>5116425 I remember from one of Lucasboy's videos where he was like "There was only one kid in the neighborhood with an Apple II and he had always, like, weird shit. It was like 'Hey wanna play some Oregon Trail?' and you'd be like get out of here."

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 00:00:26 2018 No.5116442 The C64 Wizardrys are more user-friendly because you don't have to type out the full names of spells like on the Apple.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 00:17:50 2018 No.5116473

>>5115553
>>5114732
The text technology in the Apple II was based on the ideas from Don Lancaster's TV Typewriter and the graphics based on the Cromemco Dazzler board that was popular in S-100 machines. There weren't any custom graphics chips until the TMS 9918 and ANTIC debuted in 1979.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 00:23:00 2018 No.5116484 >>5116473 The Apple II has far more in common with the S-100 systems and early single-board computers like the KIM-1 and RCA COSMAC VIP than it does the C64 or Atari 8-bit.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 00:25:14 2018 No.5116492 >>5116428 As you alluded, not many kids had one in their bedrooms back then, so that's gonna limit it no matter what. I'm not sure how much nostalgia people get for computers they used only at school.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 00:30:26 2018 No.5116495

>>5114727
>Irrelevant outside of some particular areas of North America

It actually had quite a big presence in the North American (US and Canada) school systems. I'm from Canada, and the Apple II was the very first home computer that I ever used, my grade school was exclusively Apple and had a lot of Apple II's and Apple Macintosh's.

>Not build for gaming

No, not really. But some of the best North American game designs came from the Apple II. John Carmack and John Romero being two.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 00:36:21 2018 No.5116501

So I'm an oldfag and my recollection of those days is that machines like the Apple II were expensive as fuck, and you were discouraged from even sneezing on them. I went over to a bro's house and they'd just gotten an IBM PC but we weren't allowed near the thing. After enough protests, they let me play MS Flight Simulator on it, but I didn't have much fun because I could feel them breathing down my neck and watching me to make sure I didn't accidentally hit the wrong key and break something.

Some time after that I went over to this girl's house and her dad had an IBM XT and he was this fat balding faggot with thick glasses and it was like he was monitoring your every move. In fact, before I even stepped in the door, I was told not to disturb him whole he was backing up files. So the whole time I did nothing but play board games and eat frozen TV dinners or something while this fat fuck was going around backing up files. Three hours later and he was _still_ at it.

At school, I wasn't allowed in the computer lab or to take programming classes because they didn't think I had good enough math skills even though I knew more about Applesoft BASIC and 6502 asm than any of the instructors there. The school basically had rows and rows of Apple IIs and Corvuses in a huge network. Eventually I got to take some bullshit known as a Data Processing class where you sat and heard long, boring lectures about input and output and other fundamentals of computer operation.

tl;dr my experiences with more expensive machines back then were mostly all cut short by self-important people wanting to hoard and "control" the machines and not letting kids anywhere near them.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 00:46:02 2018 No.5116509
File: 153 KB, 1422x571, ibm xt apple ii.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5116501
I knew a guy whose dad had an XT and he was more open about letting you use it, except that all the software he had was pretty much office stuff except for Flight Simulator. I remember one thing that struck me about the XT was that the text font actually looked nice and like you were using a typewriter. The text on the Apple II was very crude and looked like just pixels. See here, the pic I made for comparison.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 00:49:57 2018 No.5116510

The C64 was cheap as fuck following the price cuts in mid-1983. The disk drives cost under $300 and you could use a TV as a monitor.

So you paid less than $500 for a C64 setup while an Apple II cost at least $1200. That was why the C64 outsold the Apple II by 3-1 and that's considering the former had a 5 year head start on it (and most of those were junked by the schools that bought them).

Anyway, it's a nice computer for the late 1970s but it remained too expensive for the average family to own one. It made no sense compared to the other options.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 00:57:02 2018 No.5116515 [DELETED]

The Apple II did have a lot of good points to it namely software, hardware, and marketing. Visicalc started a revolution. Its audiovisual capabilities were limited, but entire companies and game genres were born on it. The super-fask disk drives were also a huge asset. The expansion slots were a plus as well. It was certainly much superior as a productivity machine to the C64 or Ataris.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 01:01:09 2018 No.5116520 >>5116501 They were just afraid that if they let you on the computers you'd fill them all up with your blogging and reddit spacing >>5116509 >looked nice and like you were using a typewriter >not preferring the apple 40 col typewriter

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 01:01:26 2018 No.5116521

>>5116515
The Apple II had 80 column text, nicer printers, AppleWorks blew away any office software on the Atari or C64, and it had a lot of programming languages/tools. The documentation also felt more extensive and professional than what Atari and Commodore had in terms of manuals and the Apple II also had industry-standard RS-232 and parallel ports.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 01:05:03 2018 No.5116530

The Apple II did have a lot of good points to it namely software, hardware, and marketing. Visicalc started a revolution. Its audiovisual capabilities were limited, but entire companies and game genres were born on it. The super-fast disk drives were also a huge asset. The expansion slots were a plus as well. It was certainly much superior as a productivity machine than the C64 or Ataris.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 01:12:34 2018 No.5116539

>>5114759
I would say it's easier to get into today because Apple IIs are more reliable and not loaded with fragile proprietary chips like the SID that break if you sneeze on them. A //e or IIc will also let you run almost all of the software library. Plus you can really get into that 70s Altair-era computing feel. Type-in Integer BASIC programs? Yes.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 01:16:22 2018 No.5116546

It's a lot simpler machine than the Atari or C64, but also at the same time a lot more _complex_ from a programming standpoint because getting an Apple II to do anything is a challenge. You have just frame buffer graphics and a 1-bit speaker that you have to stop everything to use. Also there's several different ways to test for the VBLANK depending on what model of Apple II it is.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 01:20:31 2018 No.5116551 >>5116539 > fragile proprietary chips like the SID that break if you sneeze on them only amerilards could over exaggerate this much. > Plus you can really get into that 70s Altair-era computing feel. top kek

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 01:36:56 2018 No.5116564 >>5116509 That monitor obviously isn't running on a real XT because it's showing 386 code in a debugger, but all the same.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 01:38:49 2018 No.5116568 >>5116564 Which of those commands is IA32? I only see 16-bit registers being used.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 01:41:01 2018 No.5116569 >>5116568 The LEAVE and MOVZX instructions aren't present in the 8086. Also see the register display at the top of the screen.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 01:44:23 2018 No.5116573 >>5116564 It's impossible to accurately photograph a 5151 monitor running because the phosphor color is outside the RGB spectrum.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 02:07:47 2018 No.5116594

I liked the Apple II GS, my school had a few of those machines back in the day. The II GS is a 16bit update on the II and has backwards compatibility with the 8-bit line. The GS was Wozniak's baby,and in many ways it was better than Job's Macintosh. Though, Steve Jobs nerfed the CPU in the II GS because he was worried that it would look better than his quasi-failed Macintosh line.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 02:07:59 2018 No.5116595

>>5116509
Yeah I agree there was a professional quality to the IBM PC that was missing from a lot of 8-bit machines. Compared with the Apple II or TRS-80 or PET or whatever, the architecture of the PC felt less hacky and had fewer "gotchas". It felt like a polished, corporate product rather than something a neckbeard assembled in a basement.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 02:22:29 2018 No.5116607

>>5116595
>It felt like a polished, corporate product rather than something a neckbeard assembled in a basement.

It felt like a polished corporate product, because that's what it was. IBM was the epitome of a corporate driven computer company that made machines for big business. The IBM PC was their first consumer grade product. Everything they made had that "high quality" industrial feel to it. The model-M keyboard is still highly regarded and sought after because of their insane build quality.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 02:25:13 2018 No.5116610 >>5116607 Thus the pic above of the 5151 monitor there. It looks like you're using a terminal on a mainframe.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 02:46:01 2018 No.5116626 >>5116595 The 8086 is also easier to write code on than the 6502 or Z80 and requires less jumping through hoops.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 02:46:18 2018 No.5116627 >>5116610 >Thus the pic above of the 5151 monitor there. It looks like you're using a terminal on a mainframe. Indeed it does.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 02:59:45 2018 No.5116636 File: 103 KB, 1000x732, snap27.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5116509 tbf Apple2 also had a perfectly serviceable 80-column mode available with an inexpensive and like 95%+ ubiquitous expansion card.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 03:06:16 2018 No.5116638

>>5116636
But you can see the text still doesn't look nearly as good or high resolution as the text on the PC. It's still the same crude one-pixel font but in 80 columns. The Apple II also didn't have all the graphics characters or attributes like blinking or intense text you had on a PC.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 03:13:25 2018 No.5116641 >>5116638 If you had a CGA or whatever card, you also had full color text. The first 8-bit machine to have that was the C64 and it was a huge deal at the time.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 03:21:34 2018 No.5116643 >>5116641 Sierra were the first game dev to really see the possibilities of the PC. King's Quest was the first game that pretty much was designed around 16 rather than 8-bit hardware.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 03:25:30 2018 No.5116645 >>5116638 Like most stuff on the Apple II, the 80 column cards used a clever hack where they simply doubled the pixel clock to get 560 pixels across instead of 280.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 03:43:15 2018 No.5116663 >>5116521 >The Apple II had 80 column text Well yeah. When you bought an 80 col card it did. Just like all that other shit it had as long as you bought something else. >>5116568 Wew lad. Double wew

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 03:46:34 2018 No.5116668 >>5116663 There was no way to get 80 column text out of an Atari or C64 at all. You were stuck with 40 column and the hardware was too closed and proprietary to allow upgrades or mods like that.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 03:58:45 2018 No.5116675 >>5116636 Wait, why did an 8-bit machine have an easy to use, menu-driven DOS and you didn't have to type COPY A:. C:\DOCS to copy files?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 04:10:25 2018 No.5116689 >>5116675 That's an application, not the operating system. AppleDOS doesn't even have a copy command. You'd have to manually bload and bsave with the proper addresses to 1:1 copy files, unless you bought an actual copy program.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 04:14:44 2018 No.5116693 If you want to go down that road, the TRS-80 Model I had a menu-driven DOS (not a front end or utility package) in 1978. Yet as late as fucking 1990, PC users were still typing bullshit like FORMAT A: /S /N:9 /T:80.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 04:18:53 2018 No.5116697 >>5116693 >>5116675 Thanks, Micro$haft.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 04:22:45 2018 No.5116702 >>5116689 Commodore didn't have a real copy command either. Well, there was but it would only copy files to the same drive, if you had two drives it wouldn't work. You had to buy a separate copy utility for that.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 04:23:54 2018 No.5116705 >>5116689 That's ProDOS though, is it not?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 04:30:41 2018 No.5116713 >>5116705 ProDOS doesn't have a copy command built in either.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 04:32:24 2018 No.5116715 >>5115431 >Complains about irrevelant computers >In a thread about Apple II Wew lad...

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 04:40:49 2018 No.5116719

>>5114384
>How come the Apple II isn't as popular with retrofags
Because the only place I could ever put my hands on one was at school. They were prohibitively expensive when I was a kid. I was a Commodore kid and so were most of the friends I had that owned computers. I imagine that this was pretty much par for the course everywhere, considering the Apple II was somewhere in the ballpark of $3000 if I recall correctly. Not exactly a potential Christmas present, at least not in my neighborhood.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 04:42:25 2018 No.5116723 >>5116719 >I imagine that this was pretty much par for the course everywhere Unless in California.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 04:43:56 2018 No.5116725 >>5116723 Oh? I'm from New England, but spent a fair part of the eighties in the Midwest. Didn't really see any Apples outside of schools. Was it different in California?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 04:45:12 2018 No.5116726 >>5116725 California is one of the wealthiest states and it's in Apple's backyard. If you as Californiafags, they'll tell you "Shit, everyone here had Apple IIs."

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 04:55:17 2018 No.5116738 >>5114862 >NES The NES was popular pretty much everywhere except Europe. Sorry you and your continent has shit taste.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 05:17:31 2018 No.5116771 >>5114384 When I was 8 I had a neighbor with an Apple II computer. I remember playing Karateka, Oregon Trail, and Carmen Sandiego on it.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 06:43:14 2018 No.5116889

>>5116313
Because it does. We are the new Roman Empire and you are the filthy barbarians outside our gates.

Half of those posts had nothing to do with your asshurt nationalistic pride you idiot. Furthermore, the game industry never took off in Yurope like it did in the US or Japan making them far less relevant in the context of this board.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 06:46:25 2018 No.5116892 >>5116420 Europeans are not great coders. They never had a flourishing software industry that the US and Japan did. Even fucking India passed up Europe as a global tech hub.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 07:02:52 2018 No.5116910
File: 11 KB, 261x191, 5f0c3e22.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5116738
>The NES was popular pretty much everywhere except Europe
By "anywhere" you mean Japan and USA, right?
Because that's literally what we are talking in terms of market for NES: Western Europe, USA and Japan. Remove home-field advantage and you are left with Europe and States. Gee, it was successful on a single foreign market, right after said market crashed, what a great achievement!

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 07:04:18 2018 No.5116913 >>5116892 >Confusing "cheapest place to have IT business" with "best place to have IT business" wew lad...

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 07:08:36 2018 No.5116919 >>5116910 >Western Europe, USA and Japan Officially maybe, but the market for famiclones was fucking huge in developing countries, which includes most of Asia, South America, Eastern Europe, etc.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 07:10:18 2018 No.5116920 >>5114384 >Pretty much the birth of the personal computer gaming industry happened there No.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 08:40:14 2018 No.5117027 >>5116920 Elaborate.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 12:07:27 2018 No.5117337

>>5116910
NES was also huge in South America (except for Brazil). It was also much more popular in East Asia and Southeast Asia than its competitors. Only Europe was content to play $2 cassette games churned out by hucksters and the 30 or so good Master System games.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 12:17:00 2018 No.5117357 at least it not the Petticoat 5

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 13:36:25 2018 No.5117478 >>5117337 At first I was thinking you are serious, but then you went full retarded

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 13:37:27 2018 No.5117481 >>5116919 Are we still talking NES or are we taking Korean and Taiwanese knock-offs? Because I'm genuinely confused, anon. You want to pretend NES was popular, because people were buying Pegasus at 1/10 of the price?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 13:42:35 2018 No.5117491 File: 211 KB, 925x1050, 1525813200115.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] ignore europoor posts filter europoor posters

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 14:39:16 2018 No.5117587 >>5117491 >Amerifat still salty they ended up gang-raped over vidya by different corporations

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 14:42:59 2018 No.5117594 >>5117491 I love this image

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 14:56:30 2018 No.5117621 >>5116495 >But some of the best North American game designs came from the Apple II. Americans didn't even make real games, just bland interactive storybooks.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 15:24:36 2018 No.5117658 >>5116892 So how about that NTSC demoscene?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 15:30:06 2018 No.5117669 >>5117491 fucking saved

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 15:52:04 2018 No.5117709 >>5117658 Many European games like Turrican were tech demos rather than games. It looks cool but the gameplay, controls, and level design are garbage.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 15:55:42 2018 No.5117716 >>5117709 >t. Terrible at Video Games

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 16:01:15 2018 No.5117724 >>5117491 >aged not so fast you fatty arbuckle

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 16:02:03 2018 No.5117728 As I understand it, it was easier to do demos on PAL C64s because the wider border and slower screen refresh gave you more time during the VBLANK for raster effects. NTSC machines average about ten fewer clock cycles during the VBLANK.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 16:16:44 2018 No.5117756 >>5114384 People are just kinda over playing Carmen Sandiego. Only ever saw an apple in school while growing up, so there's that.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 16:23:41 2018 No.5117764 >>5117709 Yeah it's like any time you criticize some mediocre Europlatformer or shmup, it's an affront to their childhood.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 16:36:21 2018 No.5117790 >>5117764 That's a cool thing that never happened. It's usually just Europeans pointing out that the North American crash wasn't relevant worldwide and Yanks getting assblasted and going full U-S-A U-S-A like mindless drones.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 16:48:49 2018 No.5117813 >>5116643 Most game developers sucked at PC compatible coding for the longest time because there were loads of experienced Z80 and 6502 programmers but the x86 was pretty new and they didn't really know how to get the most out of it yet.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 16:51:05 2018 No.5117815 >>5117813 That's not really true. There were a lot of good x86 coders but they were all employed by Lotus and Borland, not game devs.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 16:54:45 2018 No.5117821 >>5117815 >There were a lot of good x86 coders but they were all employed by Lotus and Borland Not Micro$uck though.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 16:59:24 2018 No.5117827 >>5116668 The Atari 800 had expansion slots and an 80 column card was planned but never materialized. As for Commodore, their excuse was that you should just buy a PET if you wanted business features like 80 column text and a numeric keypad.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 17:03:38 2018 No.5117840 Disk drives were less widespread in Europe so games were more designed around the limitations of cassettes which resulted in a lot of simple arcade stuff. It wasn't really practical to do Maniac Mansion or Pool of Radiance without a disk drive.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 17:05:17 2018 No.5117847 >>5117840 You could buy all those American dungeon crawlers on disk in Britain but it was expensive and not many people had disk drives to be able to play them on.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 17:08:28 2018 No.5117860 Ok, 8-bit machines in Europe were mostly cassette-based but the Amiga had disks and you still ended up with trash like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxef66P3Z3g

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 17:11:21 2018 No.5117863 >>5117860 As I said, you could also get American imports for the Amiga but it was expensive compared to most natively produced stuff.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 17:14:10 2018 No.5117868 Somehow the bar for commercial games was lower in Europe. A lot of the stuff being passed off as commercial would have been freeware or shareware here.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 17:24:49 2018 No.5117884 Eurojank

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 17:32:05 2018 No.5117887 >>5117868 Somehow the bar for commercial games was lower in States. A lot of the stuff being passed off as commercial would have been never delivered here, which explains why there was no crash either

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 17:37:23 2018 No.5117896

>>5116668
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJzOErvJwZs

>>5116663
>Well yeah. When you bought an 80 col card it did.

i've seen literally dozens of apple 2s and not a one of them ever didn't have the 80 column card. it's like trying to find a C64 owner without a fastload cartridge.

>Just like all that other shit it had as long as you bought something else.

big whoop; an apple2 with its 80 column card removed still produces better visual output than an XT with its MDA/CGA card removed. your complaint is fucktarded.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 17:45:05 2018 No.5117906 >>5117896 What he's showing is a program that would fudge 80 column text on a C64 by having a custom character set with half-sized characters, but it was almost illegible.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 17:46:54 2018 No.5117909 Once the 80 column cards became available in 1979-80, pretty much everyone had them in their Apple II and most application software expected it. After the DHGR cards came out in 84, those also became standard equipment in about 90% of Apple II setups.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 17:49:03 2018 No.5117913 >>5117896 Epyx Fastload wasn't the best fastloader around, there were other, better cartridges but it was the cheapest and most widely available one.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 17:50:22 2018 No.5117914 >>5117906 May as well just use a C128 if you want to do application software.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 17:51:46 2018 No.5117917 One thing I'll never forgive IBM for was how the PC didn't have redefinable characters and the CGA cards only allowed one page of graphics while nearly all 8-bit machines allowed multiple graphics pages.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 17:55:39 2018 No.5117924 >>5117917 It was just the bitmap modes on CGA where you only had a single page. You could have multiple text mode pages and of course all EGA and VGA cards let you do multiple graphics pages if the video card had enough memory for it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 17:56:52 2018 No.5117927 >>5117917 Some non-PC x86 machines like the Victor 9000 did have programmable characters.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 17:59:43 2018 No.5117936

>>5117896
>i've seen literally dozens of apple 2s and not a one of them ever didn't have the 80 column card

And usually a monochrome Monitor ///. The color monitor on the Apple II was more expensive and not as common as the monochrome one. Connecting an Apple II to a TV was possible but almost unheard of after the very early days in 1977-79.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 18:02:27 2018 No.5117946 >>5117936 I guess most people with C64s used a TV?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 18:04:59 2018 No.5117951 >>5117946 Depends on who you ask. Some people will tell you they never saw a C64 that wasn't connected to a 1701 monitor, others say they only saw them with TVs.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 18:07:48 2018 No.5117956 >>5117909 AFAIK some early IIes couldn't use DHGR.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 18:11:13 2018 No.5117959 >>5117956 The first ones with the Revision 1 board couldn't, Apple offered free upgrades to the Revision 2 board and it would be extremely rare to find a IIe with the Revision 1.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 18:13:57 2018 No.5117964 How honestly did Americans justify paying 50-60 USD for a Nintendo cartridge when you could get games here for £10 and you could also copy and swap them with your friends?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 18:18:49 2018 No.5117969 >>5116636 That's either a IIc or an enhanced IIe because it has the MouseText characters (like the Apple symbol and the arrows).

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 18:22:08 2018 No.5117976 >>5117964 By sprouting the "lel, poorfag" memes. Even back then. Besides, most kids had a single cartridge they got with the console, which they got as a present. Then, on average, one new game per year due to Christmas.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 18:26:47 2018 No.5117987

>>5117964
You got games that were actually playable, controllable, and wouldn't crash? I mean, really. Konami and Capcom were slightly higher caliber game developers than Mastertronic or Binary Designs. Nintendo had rigid Q/C standards and all games had to be finished and beatable and developers had to supply video of the game ending.

A lot of those games on the Spectrum and whatnot would just continue infinitely and/or crash at some point because the programmers didn't really think anyone would ever get to the end anyway.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 18:30:16 2018 No.5117995 >>5117969 if it's running a later version of ProDOS, it probably is because those required the enhanced IIe and IIc. I do agree that a lot of 8-bit DOSes were easier to use and better designed than the shit PC users had to deal with for many years.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 18:32:03 2018 No.5117998 >>5117964 You could still swap games around with your friends. I didn't own most of the NES and SNES games I played as a child, most of them were borrowed from different friends.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 18:32:40 2018 No.5118001 >>5117998 Or rent them.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 18:35:02 2018 No.5118004

>>5117987
>Konami game
>some of the best programmers in the industry who would have up to a year to work on the game, after which it would be submitted to a review board to make sure it was ready to ship
>Amstrad/Spectrum/whatever game
>slapped together by some teenager in three weeks and had terrible controls and was almost impossible to progress through

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 18:38:16 2018 No.5118014 >>5118004 At least C64 Euro shovelware could sometimes have cool music or graphics effects. The Spectrum didn't even have that.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 18:40:07 2018 No.5118019 I have to say, NES games still often had bugs/jank/flawed gameplay and level designs, but that was mostly because of the limitations of an 8-bit system.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 18:46:52 2018 No.5118032 Poor Amiga. So much utterly wasted potential.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 18:46:54 2018 No.5118034

A slight, but noticeable majority of the non-x86 retrocomputing community resides in Europe, where 8-bit and 16-bit microcomputers basically took the place of the Nintendo and Sega consoles that reigned supreme in the U.S. Apple IIs weren't widespread in Europe due to their cost.
They are remembered most commonly from their widespread use in American schools running the likes of Oregon Trail.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 18:48:34 2018 No.5118037 >>5118034 Eh? Sega's heyday was in the early 90s after the 8-bit era was pretty much over.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 18:50:54 2018 No.5118040 >>5118037 The Amiga and ST were still going strong well into the 90s in some parts of Europe.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 18:56:40 2018 No.5118047 >>5118037 And FWIW, Sega did very well in the UK.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 18:59:09 2018 No.5118049 >>5118034 The Apple II was a business and sometimes school computer in Europe, nobody had them at home. Also it was impossible to get color on a PAL monitor/TV.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 19:02:55 2018 No.5118052 The Atari 8-bits were slow to get off the ground in Europe as well due to their cost, that wasn't until the late 80s when they were past their prime.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 19:05:40 2018 No.5118060 >Europeans only made shovelware rubbish and American games were of the highest qua... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5Q9loiBJfs Oh wait.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 19:14:09 2018 No.5118062 >>5114384 What do the numbers next to the files mean?

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 19:14:47 2018 No.5118064
File: 706 KB, 968x746, 20181017_200329_crop_968x746.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5114549
Exactly the case in my past. Apples were school computers that I played Number Munchers and Oregon Trail on. At home I had a VIC-20, C64, and later on a couple Amigas.

From there I moved into PCs and grew up playing PC games much more than consoles.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 19:24:20 2018 No.5118080

>>5118062
The amount of sectors on disk the file occupies. Apple and Commodore disks had 256 byte sectors on their disks so a file with 50 sectors was roughly 12k in size. Since each file has to take at least one whole sector even if it's three bytes in size, it's not a perfect system.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 19:36:33 2018 No.5118092

A lot of games would come on flippy disks with the C64 version on one side and the Atari on the other. Castle Wolfenstein happened to have the Apple and C64 versions on each side. So I had a C64 at home, but I could take my game disk to school and play it on the Apple IIs in the school computer lab when no one was looking (I was seated in the back where nobody could really see me). Except I forgot that Wolfenstein had really loud digitized sound samples in it so the whole computer lab was filled with scratchy voice clips of German soldiers yelling what was probably Nazi slogans or something.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 20:01:30 2018 No.5118141 >>5118092 That is a real fucking nice blogpost, I must say.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 20:07:29 2018 No.5118156

>>5117887
>Somehow the bar for commercial games was lower in Europe. A lot of the stuff being passed off as commercial would have been never delivered here, as none of us could even afford the hardware required to play it. We didn't actually have any video games over here, which explains why there was no crash.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 20:07:45 2018 No.5118158 The Atari 8-bits were the only computer of the three that had an actual BASIC command for playing musical notes. On the Apple and C64, it would require a mass of PEEKs and POKEs.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 20:09:56 2018 No.5118164

>>5118158
The Apple II just had a speaker you could click by reading a memory location. By setting up different timing loops, you could play notes. BASIC however wasn't fast enough to make anything above about a middle C register (Integer BASIC would have been faster than Applesoft).

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 20:14:21 2018 No.5118172 >>5118141 At least he contributed to the thread topic.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 20:15:34 2018 No.5118175 >>5118164 Integer BASIC was 4k in size IIRC. Applesoft was about 12k.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 20:42:48 2018 No.5118210 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kM19sw-jZM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fgok9eHqO8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qAFTOqyp7I Americans are really trying to sell me on the idea that this stuff is better than Creatures or Turrican?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 20:47:22 2018 No.5118214 >>5118210 You really comparing a 1970s computer made with TTLs with the C64 which was newer by 5 years and had custom ASICs?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 20:52:40 2018 No.5118228 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDGiE4wu07w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpHG3imEB3Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyVSx-IJBZA Get rekt, burgers.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 21:12:48 2018 No.5118265 >>5118049 nobody had them at home here either

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 21:21:11 2018 No.5118297 >>5114645 Another advantage of faster disk access was that it put less wear on your game disk because it wasn't in contact with the drive head as much.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 21:59:59 2018 No.5118360 [DELETED]

In that Playboy interview from 85, Steve Jobs said "So in '82, we learned that the US Army in West Germany was using Apple IIs to plot nuclear missile trajectories. And we didn't sell computers to the military so we figured they must have gotten them from a dealer or something. But it didn't make us feel too good knowing our computers were being used to plan mutually assured destruction."

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 22:05:10 2018 No.5118369 >>5118360 There we go. Nobody ever used a C64 or Atari for stuff like that (playing Missile Command doesn't count).

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 22:11:49 2018 No.5118384

In the Playboy interview from 85, Steve Jobs said "So in '82, we learned that the US Army in West Germany was using Apple IIs to plot nuclear missile trajectories. And we didn't sell computers to the military so we figured they must have gotten them from a dealer or something. But it didn't make us feel too good knowing our computers were being used to plan mutually assured destruction."

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 22:14:49 2018 No.5118389 >>5116145 Prepubescent kids between 12-15 tend to not get along well younger kids or anybody older than them.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 22:19:41 2018 No.5118395 So I gather from this thread that everyone had, like, C64s in the 80s and nobody had an Apple II at home (except possibly in California). So how the fuck did they sell 6 million of the things?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 22:25:24 2018 No.5118403 >>5118395 Schools? IDK.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 22:27:59 2018 No.5118412 >>5118395 Lots of people owned Apple IIs at home. My dad was a working-class midwesterner who had a pretty extensive Apple II setup at home.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 22:28:31 2018 No.5118414 >>5118395 Schools and businesses, I guess. I honestly find anything pre-AMIGA to be too primitive to enjoy outside of the historical significance

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 22:31:57 2018 No.5118423 Also, as far as nationalistic shitposting on 4chan goes, this thread was suprisingly civil.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 22:32:07 2018 No.5118425 My dad didn't know anyone with an Apple II, everyone had C64s or Ataris. Apple gear was expensive and IBM PCs were really expensive.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 22:37:57 2018 No.5118442

>>5118414
Rally. 8-bit machines are my favorite era of computing. 16-bit and up is too clean, polished, and insulates you from the hardware. There's not as many interesting/weird things about them. The crudeness is part of the charm on 8-bit machines and that all of them have some weird hardware or OS quirks you have to deal with.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 22:41:55 2018 No.5118449 >>5118395 Plenty of people had Apple IIs at home. They just weren't children, so /vr/ posters, who pretty much max out in their early 40s, wouldn't have known them back then, and thus refuse to believe they existed.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 22:50:55 2018 No.5118460 I got to play with one at a flea market some years ago. It was kind of gay how you can't move the cursor in BASIC around freely to edit program lines like you could on the C64.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 23:08:27 2018 No.5118483 >>5118449 This is a little bit morbid, but I've noticed a lot of Apple II auctions on Ebay coming from estate sales. I suspect that maybe the average age of the user base was older than the typical Commodore or Atari owner.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 23:15:27 2018 No.5118495

>>5118449
No one's refusing to believe they exist, or any nonsense like that. They were mostly in schools, though. All these people who "weren't children" in the eighties had families like most people do. They still didn't own Apple computers en masse, though.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 22 23:48:28 2018 No.5118528 >>5117478 >get proven wrong >start hurling insults You have to go back >>>/v/

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 23:52:16 2018 No.5118536

>>5117790
Really? Because I've been reading a thread that was originally about the Apple II, until some Yuros who were not in its target market started seething and throwing nationalistic garbage about.

It's apparent to us all who the mindless, obnoxious drones are here, all you have to do is scroll up for the evidence.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 23:55:21 2018 No.5118543
File: 131 KB, 364x852, 1511227793606.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5118536
We literally live rent free inside their heads, 24/7. Even a tangentially related thread like this one is enough to trigger them, even though absolutely no one mentioned Europe.

Anonymous Mon Oct 22 23:59:58 2018 No.5118549

>>5116594
I was a GS guy and still have mine. Its a highly underrated machine, but up against the Amigas of the same era its hard to say its better for games. There were alot of great games on it and the backwards compatibility was great. The sad fact is if they would have pushed the ][gs instead of the mac, Apple would have been a totally different company.

Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:11:22 2018 No.5118564
File: 53 KB, 207x203, 03E2F541-6C0D-4C6D-BF74-F21F719A9050.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5116287
I know, right? And they sold until the early 90’s. By then Apple was probably selling them to schools or workplaces that needed them as replacements as opposed to home users that wanted them.

Also, I’ve had this theory about Apple II users for awhile now. I guess I don’t have anyway of confirming it, but I think most early adopters were rich men, probably older, who bought Apple II’s and loved them, bought into the whole ecosystem, spent $10,000 on their setup. Learned them top to bottom. So the idea of getting a “new” computer was completely unacceptable. “Why buy another computer. I HAVE a computer! And it works just fine for me!” The kind of guys that were still dialing into local BBS’es in the mid 90’s with their IIgs.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:14:38 2018 No.5118570 >>5118543 It's just a 4chan thing, nobody actually cares about hating you.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:15:56 2018 No.5118573 >>5118570 And yet here we are, in yet another thread full of seething triggered Euros.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:18:45 2018 No.5118581 >>5118536 How fucking thin skinned can you be? This is a playground compared to what you guys do in Amiga threads, sounds like you just don't want any foreign intervention at all.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:19:57 2018 No.5118583 >>5118573 But if you you've been around Amiga threads, Americans will go out of their way to rub in Euros faces that their childhood sucked.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:20:52 2018 No.5118584 >>5118583 And that has what to do with seething triggered Euros coming into threads about computers they didn't even own and shitposting in threads where they weren't even mentioned?

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:22:47 2018 No.5118585 >>5118584 Because 4chan, everyone is a giant dickhead for no reason. Don't take it personally, babe.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:22:59 2018 No.5118586 >>5118584 >Why does a region that is obsessed with retro computers go to a thread about retro computers Are you unironically autistic? Like, really autistic, not 4chan autistic.

Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:24:33 2018 No.5118590

>>5118585
>Don't take it personally, babe.
Why would I? I'm not European.
>>5118586
>Why does a region that is obsessed with retro computers go to a thread about retro computers
Yeah, because that's what we're talking about here. Totally not triggered Euros.

Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:25:08 2018 No.5118593

>>5118581
I was pointing out who derailed the thread. The yurotard mentioned drones spouting patriotic nonsense because that's how his puppet masters told him Americans act, and I was correcting his mistake and demonstrating that this was a thread about the Apple II until Yuros started spamming garbage. It's not thin skinned to remind you of this fact, I am correcting you as I would correct a child.

That's the facts, but go ahead and post more links to bad games no one cares about. We know you lot lack the frontal lobe activity to have a constructive conversation on the thread topic.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:27:02 2018 No.5118597 You're being autistic, shitflinging about nationality is practically imageboard tradition, there's even whole sites dedicated that. Outside of jokes Euros don't really care about the US. Brits however...

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:27:10 2018 No.5118598 >>5118590 >>5118593 Calm down.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:28:17 2018 No.5118605 >>5118598 No one's upset, though. Except for a handful of triggered Euros.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:28:30 2018 No.5118606 Also if you think that's bad try making a thread about anything slightly related to Japan.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:31:26 2018 No.5118609 >>5118605 You can't be real

Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:31:30 2018 No.5118610

The game library for the Apple II tended to be more acceptable to schools. Sierra and Broderbund were Apple-centered devs who had a large presence in educational software. SSI war games were also accepted by schools because they were perceived as "educational".

The kind of games you had on the Apple II were usually thinking man's ones where you had to plot a strategy or solve puzzles instead of mindlessly mashing buttons. It was a different and more nerdy way of gaming than the local arcades. It took the games students played on mainframes like Adventure, Hunt The Wumpus, and Star Trek and brought them to people's living rooms.

Wozniak's disk drive controller was also a landmark because it was the first disk drive that didn't cost more than the computer itself, and it was reliable, extremely fast, and had pretty good storage capacity. Compare the TRS-80 Model I whose disks only held 90k and you often had a hard time even retrieving anything you wrote on them.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:32:16 2018 No.5118615 >>5118609 It's 4chan. He's probably just bored and trolling, you have to be kind of thick to take anything at face value.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:32:47 2018 No.5118616 >>5118609 Jaden, is that you? Didn't know you were European.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:33:49 2018 No.5118618 >>5118615 And you have to really "thick" to get triggered by a thread that had nothing to do with you.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:35:57 2018 No.5118621 >>5118610 Yes the Apple II was the Mecca of computer gaming up to about 1983 but the C64 rapidly took over from there.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:37:28 2018 No.5118625 File: 74 KB, 1440x1080, 1534010725157.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5118621 >the Mecca It's actually just spelled MECC.

Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:39:22 2018 No.5118627

>>5118621
The Apple II kind of got the ball rolling on the idea of a computer with a built-in BASIC, color graphics, sound, and a joystick port. However, the C64 far outsold it because it cost about 75% less. Atari 8-bits were sort of in between the two. They were successful for about three years before the C64 overtook them.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:45:01 2018 No.5118645 >>5118621 >randomly deletes his own post lol?

Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:48:04 2018 No.5118648

>>5118610
>The kind of games you had on the Apple II were usually thinking man's ones where you had to plot a strategy or solve puzzles instead of mindlessly mashing buttons
For some reason, Eurodevs couldn't figure out how to do anything but button mashing shit.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:52:36 2018 No.5118650 >>5118648 What part of "We only had cassettes" do you not get? You're not going to do some dungeon crawler epic with cassettes. Imagine the horror of the load times. Arcade games that were single load were all we really could do on home computers.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:56:54 2018 No.5118652 >>5118650 You had disks on the Amiga and still continued making the same amateurish platformer/arcade shit.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:58:37 2018 No.5118654 >>5118650 The load times on the C64 were a horror even with disks.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 00:59:38 2018 No.5118657 >>5118652 This. >>5118654 This.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 01:01:08 2018 No.5118660 >>5118654 It wasn't bad if you had a proper fastloader and most commercial games came with one built in anyway.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 01:07:00 2018 No.5118669 All I'm saying is that NTSC C64 games looked like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b47LpIEJ6Fs And PAL games looked like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDDkxfJCB9Y

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 01:57:04 2018 No.5118742 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm2geIEcnnY Oh golly, I'm so glad I missed out on such thrilling games as this instead of Jet Set Willy, Chucky Egg, Dizzy, and Creatures.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 02:01:44 2018 No.5118753 >>5118742 It's a freaking children's game they'd play in the school computer lab.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 02:06:50 2018 No.5118759 >>5114616 Z80 not 6502

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 02:12:42 2018 No.5118768 >>5118759 Idiot.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 02:25:20 2018 No.5118782 >>5117964 we didn't buy them often we mostly went to the video store and rented them for 99 cents for the weekend

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 02:33:21 2018 No.5118789 It's kinda primitive and the graphics don't look very good on emulation.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 02:36:40 2018 No.5118791 When you think of an Apple II, the first image that comes to mind is a nerd with coke bottle glasses like you'd see in cheesy 80s teen movie playing Wizardry.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 04:13:52 2018 No.5118892 Its games are crude bleepy shit with ugly-ass colors.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 04:19:46 2018 No.5118896 >>5118549 Literally 90%of the things went to schools.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 04:40:47 2018 No.5118915 6 million Apple IIs but I think the IIe accounted for at least 60% of the total and only 300,000 or so were the original II/II+.

Anonymous Tue Oct 23 04:45:19 2018 No.5118923

People had them at home but it was never near as common as the VIC-20, C64, or Atari 8-bits and from the anecdotal evidence, it seems that it was more common in the more wealthy West Coast. The vast majority of all Apple IIs ever sold were as a fleet box for schools.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 05:39:44 2018 No.5118970 >>5118549 GS is only worthy model out of that line. the sound chip is fucking amazing. >>5118581 americans love proving how retarded they are by writing walls of gibberish nobody gives a fuck about.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 05:48:05 2018 No.5118973 >>5118528 >Sprouts bullshit an lies >Pretends those are valid You have to go >>>/out/

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 06:31:41 2018 No.5118996 >>5118970 >two sentences >wall of gibberish Totally no assblasted Euros in the thread, though.

Anonymous Tue Oct 23 12:32:39 2018 No.5119573

>>5114507
>>5114507

oldfag confirming this.

Apples were only seen in schools. Well, the few schools that had a "computer lab" were all Apples. I didn't know a single person that had an Apple at home. Apple was good for Oregon Trail, Karateka, and that's about it.

Meanwhile in the early 80's I knew a lot of people who had commodore 64s (well, a lot of "computer" people/nerds had c64s, not a lot of people out of the general public, most of them still had atari 2600 or colecovision at best before the NES) and there were literally hundreds of games being traded about and available on local bbses. The birth of the personal computer gaming industry happened on commodore, not on the apple. ibm pc was not a thing then either, that didnt get big until the tradewars days of 1990 or so?

tldr: your dad was right.

Anonymous Tue Oct 23 12:49:36 2018 No.5119589

>>5116334
>>5116334
>absolute horse shit. you've bought into corporate mythology based in the land of fantasy and fucking make believe.

You're right. That is retro-corporate mythology at its best.

Apple in the 80's wisely targeted schools with high pressure tactics because school districts were the only ones who could afford/waste money on their expensive products. Even IF the ][e cost the same as a c64 say around 1985...who the fuck would buy one? Nobody. In the home market you needed games and functionality/utility. Which the c64 had. Apple had nothing to compete with that. So they smartly aimed their overpriced shit at school districts with deep pockets looking to get on the "computers are the wave of the future!" bandwagon.

Apple also came very close to going out of business in the 90's, which people seem to conveniently forget. Which pretty much destroys this laughable theory that they were so "ahead of their time they were thinking in decades". That's horse shit. Ripped off idea/technology (mp3 players) and a fuckin great advertising campaign saved that company, not any long-planning idea from the 80's.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 12:51:00 2018 No.5119592 >>5116406 >>5116406 >>5116406 >>5116406 >>5116406 it's incredible. I don't even think 5% of games everyone had were legit store copies. Don't make me dig out the box of old c64 floppies, hahah

Anonymous Tue Oct 23 15:21:09 2018 No.5119821

>>5119589
>In the home market you needed games and functionality/utility. Which the c64 had

Or, well, you needed games and it did them a lot better than the Apple II and its purple/green colors and clicker sound. The Apple was way better at productivity stuff than the C64, but then again the serious office worker type would have invested in an IBM PC.

It's too bad the C64 was so darn fragile and had shit power supplies and ICs that could be killed easily.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 15:24:02 2018 No.5119828 My dad,shit, he would have loved to have an IBM XT but he didn't have $4000 to spend on a computer.

Anonymous Tue Oct 23 15:29:23 2018 No.5119839

The TRS-80 Model I was really the first mass-market computer and it was really hot for 2-1/2 years before the cheaper and more gaming-friendly VIC-20 appeared. So you could give Apple credit for the first machine with color graphics/sound/joysticks/built-in BASIC but the Model I was the beginning of the "computers for the masses, not the classes" idea.

Anonymous Tue Oct 23 15:31:09 2018 No.5119842

>>5119589
>Apple in the 80's wisely targeted schools with high pressure tactics because school districts were the only ones who could afford/waste money on their expensive products
The IBM PCs were way more expensive than that even, but obviously they were twice the computer that any 8-bit machine was.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 15:34:02 2018 No.5119851 As other people have said, it can be guessed that the Apple II's popularity (outside the ubiquitous school market) was regional and concentrated on the West Coast.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 15:37:37 2018 No.5119860 Is it me or do documentaries and books about the birth of the personal computer industry way exaggerate and revise history regarding Apple in the 70s-80s?

Anonymous Tue Oct 23 15:48:12 2018 No.5119880

>>5119860
No shit. Apple has a very well-oiled propaganda machine and most people who write those books about the industry like Steven Levy are based in the Silicon Valley area. It doesn't matter how many millions of people had Atari 400s or C64s or whatever, the history books will jerk off Steve Jobs and go "Oh well some kids had a VIC-20 and used it to play video games w/e." even though the VIC-20 was the first computer in history to sell 1 million units.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 15:49:39 2018 No.5119881 >>5119880 I read "Fire in the Valley--The Birth of the Personal Computer" and it had little to say about Commodore other than that they "concentrated on European sales and found a niche selling low-cost home computers".

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 15:55:26 2018 No.5119896 Apple were important, yes, but Radio Shack were important too and so were Commodore for making the personal computer revolution possible.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 15:56:28 2018 No.5119902 >>5119589 >Apple in the 80's wisely targeted schools with high pressure tactics because They bribed the California state legislature into buying Apple IIs for the state educational system.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 15:58:00 2018 No.5119906 >>5119592 You really only needed to buy the game if it was some strategy or RPG title where you wouldn't be able to figure out the controls without a manual. You almost never needed the instructions for arcade stuff.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 16:01:05 2018 No.5119912 IDK but Sierra mostly wouldn't have anything to do with Atari or Commodore machines, they considered them toys and not real computers.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 16:06:48 2018 No.5119925 >>5119912 Which is hilarious considering they were churning out games.

Anonymous Tue Oct 23 16:07:12 2018 No.5119928

>>5119912
No shit. They were Californiafags and Ken Williams was an early Apple II owner (he bought his first in about 1979). Also Sierra were heavily into educational software and it made obvious business sense to target the platform that was in every goddamn school in America.

Anonymous Tue Oct 23 16:14:13 2018 No.5119947

Ken Williams was butthurt about Commodore and Atari for a couple reasons. The Atari 400/800 was the second platform after the Apple II that Sierra developed for, but in the early days Atari notoriously wouldn't release technical info for the system so they couldn't program the thing except in BASIC. Then they invested a shitton of money on cartridge games for the Atari/VIC-20/C64 which backfired on them when the video game crash happened. Sierra almost went under and were rescued by the Tandy 1000 version of King's Quest.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 16:19:12 2018 No.5119961 >>5119912 The original PC elitists.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 16:24:16 2018 No.5119974 >>5119928 I don't think they got into educational stuff until Al Lowe came aboard in 83.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 16:36:46 2018 No.5120010 >>5119906 I defy anyone to figure out F-15 Strike Eagle without the manual.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 16:46:54 2018 No.5120034 >>5120010 Granted, the Apple II's analog sticks were an advantage for flight sims.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 16:54:50 2018 No.5120046 >>5120034 Lyl not with the average framerate you got on the things.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 17:08:46 2018 No.5120069 >>5116509 The monochrome card and 5151 monitor were borrowed from the IBM DisplayWriter word processor.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 20:54:57 2018 No.5120451 A lot of the educational games on the Apple II haven't been preserved as well as they could be because pirate/cracker groups who cracked the things were ridiculed in the community.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 21:01:21 2018 No.5120456 >>5119573 >Apple was good for Oregon Trail, Karateka, and Ultima.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 21:08:22 2018 No.5120471 File: 536 KB, 1024x685, 4451011464_0f13352964_b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 21:22:23 2018 No.5120490 >>5120471 Is that some European model? Because I don't remember the keyboard on the IIe looking like that.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 21:25:42 2018 No.5120494 AppleWorks was an amazing office package, nothing else on an 8-bit machine could touch it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 21:28:23 2018 No.5120502 >>5117491 ^This. Go fuck off and play James Pond or something.

Anonymous Tue Oct 23 21:47:51 2018 No.5120536

I think the other anon hit it on the head when he said people who write books about the history of personal computers are mostly hipsters from Silicon Valley with strong ties to Apple and have a rather skewered idea of history. Never mind that the TRS-80 Model I was the first mass-market computer or that the VIC-20 was the first computer to sell a million units or that the Amiga in some ways was years ahead of its time. No, those were just irrelevant toys for playing children's games on (even though Apple machines had the world's biggest library of kiddie eduware).

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 21:52:53 2018 No.5120541 >>5120536 If you read computer magazines from that period like Byte and InfoWorld, the Apple II was pretty important and got a lot of coverage but I would argue that S-100 machines got the most page space.

Anonymous Tue Oct 23 21:57:32 2018 No.5120548

>>5120541
Writers and journalists like writing about personalities. A lot of those companies made very important contributions to computing that aren't brought up because they didn't have a larger-than-life figure like Steve Jobs. Someone who just does what he's paid to do and tries to design a nice piece of hardware and doesn't have messianic delusions like Jobs doesn't get the coverage.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 22:30:09 2018 No.5120623 ITT: Americans mad nobody gave a shit about their expensive shitboxes with purple and green colours and blipper sound

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 22:40:01 2018 No.5120647 >>5117896 >big whoop; a glass with it's water removed still is as wet as an ocean with it's water removed >millennilogic

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 22:48:46 2018 No.5120661 >>5120623 No we're not. Most of us never used them outside of schools. Always good to see triggered Euros, though.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 22:49:41 2018 No.5120662 >>5120623 Isn't that pretty much what the Spectrum was?

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 22:53:27 2018 No.5120668 >Oregon Trail vs. >Eurojank platformer

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 22:53:41 2018 No.5120669 >>5120662 As someone else said, the Speccy was primitive but at least you paid a fair sum of money for it, not $1200.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 23:03:23 2018 No.5120684 >>5120669 It also did not have expansion slots, disk drives, 80 column text, and a host of other features.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 23:07:23 2018 No.5120690 >>5117709 Or The Last Ninja.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 23:12:41 2018 No.5120702 I will say you're far more likely to find Apple IIs nowadays that are in working condition than you will C64s.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 23:30:41 2018 No.5120726 >>5120702 You can literally buy new C64 boards, cases, and components and build your own these days.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 23 23:32:37 2018 No.5120735 >>5120726 They require you to supply the original chips like the VIC and SID though.

Anonymous Tue Oct 23 23:34:00 2018 No.5120737

>>5120735
I believe you'll find some of those have reproductions now too. And it's only a matter of time before someone makes reproductions of the rest.

Now if you wanna talk about hard to find, try to find a Microchannel Sound card that's Sound Blaster Compatible for an IBM PS/2 computer.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 24 00:14:39 2018 No.5120792 >>5120737 There's no VIC-II reproduction and if there was it would likely be some bullshit with HDMI output that isn't really like the original.

Anonymous Wed Oct 24 00:30:19 2018 No.5120816

>>5116509
Byte Magazine did a benchmark test of the Apple II and IBM PC in 1983 and found that the Apple performed better in several categories such as speed of disk access and screen and keyboard I/O, probably because its OS routines were simpler than the IBM's were.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 24 01:14:58 2018 No.5120870 >>5116626 >tfw we don't live in the timeline where IBM chose the 68k for the PC

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 24 01:19:47 2018 No.5120873 >>5120870 Their reasons for choosing the 8088 made sense, though. I probably would have made the same choice if I were in their place.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 24 01:49:10 2018 No.5120902 The 8086/88 was the only viable 16-bit CPU that could have been used in a production machine in 1981 and moreover it was very easy to port the large body of existing Z80 software to it.

Anonymous Wed Oct 24 01:59:26 2018 No.5120914

>>5120902
Let's go down the list of potential microprocessors IBM could have used.

>6502
Absolutely not--they didn't want to look like they were peddling an Apple II clone.
>Z8000
Very little software, difficult to port existing stuff to it, expensive, and had numerous hardware and fabrication issues.
>68000
Not available yet in production quantities, expensive, would have also required expensive supporting chips.
>other 8-bit CPUs (Z80, 6809, etc)
Limited to 64k of memory.
>in-house IBM microprocessor
Expensive, would require time to design and put into production, would not have existing software available for it, and would likely scare off third party devs.

The 8086 had been out for three years, was already widely used in production machines, was easy to adapt 8080/Z80 software for, and had a "lite" version that could use 8-bit supporting chips. IBM obviously wanted to look like a forward-thinking company and yet another 8-bit machine would have smacked of "me too" and done nothing to advance technology forward.

Anonymous Wed Oct 24 02:12:38 2018 No.5120934

>>5120914
It's not so much that the 68000 wasn't available in large quantities in 1981. The issue was that there weren't any second sources for it at the time, and IBM hated being reliant on a single supplier. Also, due to cost, they would have wanted to use the 68008 if anything, and that wasn't ready yet.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 24 02:14:06 2018 No.5120937 >>5120934 Couldn't they have gotten AMD to become a second source for Motorola instead of intel?

Anonymous Wed Oct 24 02:58:05 2018 No.5121009

>>5120937
Possibly, but AMD already had licensing deals with Intel, so they probably saw that as the path of least resistance.

Mainly though, I think the decision came down to the 68008 not being available yet, and CP/M software being easier to port to the 8088. IBM realized that having a large software library right off the bat would be a huge boon for the PC.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 24 03:21:33 2018 No.5121034 >>5120934 IBM used exclusively Intel chips for the first year and a half. They didn't begin using second sources in the PCs until 83 when the XT came out and production started really ramping up.

Anonymous Wed Oct 24 03:26:48 2018 No.5121040

>>5120934
The 68008 was sort of a failed idea and it was actually slower relative to the 68000 than the 8088 was to the 8086.

The Mac 128 was also the first consumer-level machine to use a 68000 and Apple still had to employ some l33t hax0r tricks so they could use cheap 64kx1 RAM with it because an 8Mhz CPU would normally require faster and more costly RAM.

Anonymous Wed Oct 24 03:43:45 2018 No.5121058

>>5121034
Right, but it was still an important consideration, and IBM demanded a second source as part of their negotiations with Intel.

>>5121040
Oh for sure, the 68008 was a piece of shit. But it was the only practical way they could have used a 68k-family CPU for the PC. 16-bit peripheral controllers and other supporting chips simply weren't available in large enough quantities and at affordable prices at the time.

Anonymous Wed Oct 24 04:26:29 2018 No.5121084
File: 66 KB, 597x593, 32434.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

10 HOME:HGR2:HCOLOR=1
20 PI = 3.1415926:D = 1.95
30 FOR A=0 TO PI*2 STEP PI/30
40 X1 = INT(280/2) + COS(A)*40 + 0.5
50 Y1 = 30 + SIN(A)*20 + 0.5
60 X2 = INT(280/2) + COS(A + D) * 50 + 0.5
70 Y2 = 140 + SIN(A + D)*40 + 0.5
80 HPLOT X1,Y1 TO X2,Y2
90 NEXT
100 END

Program in Apple II BASIC to draw a hyperboloid. Now try doing this on a C64 in just straight BASIC with no extenders like Simons BASIC. The horror, the horror...

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 24 05:59:15 2018 No.5121158 >>5121084 I tried, then I just gave up and did the thing in QBASIC because I'm that lazy.

Anonymous Wed Oct 24 07:38:45 2018 No.5121251
File: 450 KB, 449x642, free shrugs.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5118581
>How fucking thin skinned can you be
But it's very simple. Imagine living your entire life being reminded on every step that you live in the greatest country in the world and on every step getting praised just for breathing or participation in something. And then you meet with some outsider who wasn't wrapped up in a cotton wool and suddenly you have no fucking clue how to behave, because your skin is paper-thin.
This is the same reason why all it takes to trigger Americans is just saying random shit about them or their country and they are instantly enraged how anyone could even dare to do that or prove them wrong.

t. spend almost all my uni years on different exchange programs

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 24 15:46:43 2018 No.5122039 >>5121158 >>5121251 >t. spend almost all my uni years on different exchange programs >like anyone who actually did that would be wasting their time on 4chan

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 24 15:56:05 2018 No.5122056 >>5121084 It's probably not as bad as you think. The PRG already provides the essentials on plotting pixels in BASIC.

Anonymous Wed Oct 24 16:01:50 2018 No.5122073

>>5122056
Graphics in straight C64 BASIC are doable, but the main issue isn't the difficulty but rather the speed because it will be unbelievably slow compared with BASICs that have graphics commands. Usually you'll want to use a machine language routine to clear the bitmap screen because the way the Programmer's Reference Guide does it with a FOR...NEXT loop takes about 30 seconds to finish.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 24 16:43:19 2018 No.5122167 >>5122039 >The only place where I can discuss with people obscure cRPGs from the late 80s >HURR DURR DURR WHAT YOU ARE DOING ON 4CHAN DURRR

Anonymous Wed Oct 24 16:56:19 2018 No.5122198
File: 76 KB, 600x600, IMG_1513.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5122167
>writes a wall of text about how Americans are thin skinned and how well cultured he is
>immediately turns into a SEETHING capslock sperg after one joke directed at him

hahahahahaha, sounds like mommy and daddy wasted all the money trying to make you cultured, but at least they got your little spegy ass out of the house so it's not a complete wash.

Anonymous Wed Oct 24 19:05:20 2018 No.5122416
File: 69 KB, 1200x630, Little Big Shrug.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5122198
Never I impled I'm well-cultured. You did so.
And how to spot an American? When he makes an ass of himself, he will claim it was just a joke
But there is a better one, even
>Higher education
>Paid
Top kek

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 24 19:07:15 2018 No.5122424 >>5121084 Literally just different commands to set the graphics mode and plot the graphics. But yeah ,if your coding skills don't go beyond copying and pasting a tutorial it would be an absolute horror.

Anonymous Wed Oct 24 19:44:42 2018 No.5122480
File: 44 KB, 800x450, IMG_3709.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5122416
That wasn't me who made the first reply to you spergy.

Also it costs money to travel you dunce. I think you switched Unis so much because you were really dumb and kept flunking out into lower tier ones.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 24 21:45:01 2018 No.5122663 >>5122424 >C64 BASIC >graphics commands ...

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 24 21:52:06 2018 No.5122678 >>5122663 Like someone else said, the PRG already provides code for plotting pixels in BASIC. The real issue is the horrible slowness of it.

Anonymous Wed Oct 24 22:00:22 2018 No.5122691

>>5122678
One problem with the bitmap mode on the C64 is that it's not linear like the bitmap modes on the Apple II and Atari, it's organized into 8x8 blocks. It takes additional calculations to figure out exactly where the pixel you want to turn on/off is located. The color data is also handled in a less efficient way than it is on the Apple and Atari.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 24 22:02:29 2018 No.5122697 >>5122691 I'm not familiar with how it works. Explain?

Anonymous Wed Oct 24 22:23:24 2018 No.5122742

>>5122697
The Apple II has 280x192 graphics resolution. It's pretty much linear with the colors being produced by NTSC bleed and determined by the pixel patterns. Every three bits represents a pixel with the third bit being a "flag" that when enabled shifts the color burst 60 degrees for that pixel which allows it to be blue or orange instead of purple or green. There's also the 40x48 block graphics mode which has 16 colors.

The Atari's usual bitmap screen is 160x200 with every two bits determining the pixel color. There can only be four colors which are selected via a palette of 256. These are selected with the display list table for the screen and you can change to a different set of colors every 8 scanlines. However, There's also the less commonly used 320x214 mode which works more like the Apple II's graphics in that NTSC bleed is used to produce color.

The C64 has both a high res 320x200 and a low-res 160x200 mode. These are organized into 8x8 or 4x8 pixel blocks. In high-res mode, the high and low bits of each byte in the screen RAM determines the color for the blocks (each block may have two colors). The low-res mode uses the bits in screen RAM for colors 1 and 2 and color 3 is gotten from the color RAM. The background color comes from the register at $D021 and applies to the entire screen. Bitmap mode is not used much on the C64 due to its slowness, mostly just for static screens (like the ubiquitous tape loader screens on European games) and the low-res mode is used more often than the high-res mode.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 24 23:43:29 2018 No.5122902 File: 285 KB, 2048x1536, Transferring-files-to-an-Apple-IIe-0001.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 10:28:15 2018 No.5123540

>>5122480
>Also it costs money to travel you dunce
That's also covered by the stipend, you moron.
But this is one of those things to poke Americans with that never fails - just remind them they are too fucking poor to afford education, while everyone else has it for free

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:04:20 2018 No.5124072 File: 70 KB, 598x502, kv9r4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5123540 >free

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:08:50 2018 No.5124082 File: 141 KB, 1111x597, lel computer.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5123540 >still responding >still mad he kept having to switch McColleges S E E T H I N G P E R G

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:24:14 2018 No.5124103 >>5123540 >while everyone else has it for free Freedom ISN'T free you dumb bong. Why would we want free education? That's SOCIALISM!

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:28:14 2018 No.5124115 >>5123540 >'free' education What's your tax rate again?

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:31:23 2018 No.5124123

>>5124072
If youre trying to say everything is paid for, eg TNSTAAFL, that's only true on a yearly account. You should know investing in education increases secondary industry and GDP. It pays for itself such that over time it's not only "free", it makes money, or more correctly wealth.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:38:31 2018 No.5124134 The last few posts appear to have nothing to do with the thread topic or video games desu.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:58:21 2018 No.5124180 >>5114384 The UK is an embarrassment.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 19:39:55 2018 No.5124407 >>5116520 >blogging and reddit spacing I'm from 1984 and what are these things?

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 21:07:05 2018 No.5124534

>>5121084
Or just do it in Atari BASIC. Whatever works.

10 GRAPHICS 8+16
20 DIM A$(1):PI=3.1415926:D=1.95
30 FOR A=0 TO PI*2 STEP PI/30
40 X1 = INT(319/2) + COS(A)*40+0.5
50 Y1=30+SIN(A)*20+0.5
60 X2= INT(319/2) + COS(A+D)*50+0.5
70 Y2 = 140 + SIN(A + D)*40 + 0.5
80 PLOT X1,X2:DRAWTO X2,Y2
90 NEXT A
100 INPUT A$:GRAPHICS 0

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 21:16:30 2018 No.5124549

>>5124534
I'm thinking of how that might be done on the C64. You would probably have to set up a subroutine/loop to plot pixels as a substitute for not having the DRAWTO statement. Say, use the values in Y1 and Y2 as the index loop. It would be terribly slow, but then Atari BASIC is also slow as fuck.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 21:27:18 2018 No.5124564 The BASIC on the Apple II has a bigger set of graphics commands than Atari BASIC. There's line drawing, scaling, and vector plotting. Atari BASIC pretty much has PLOT and DRAWTO for graphics features and that's it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 21:29:41 2018 No.5124567 >>5124564 It was a rush job they did in a few weeks and Atari BASIC is 8k while Applesoft BASIC is 12k.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 22:15:06 2018 No.5124636 Also you can't access some graphics modes from BASIC on the 400/800, these were added in on the XL.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 22:35:17 2018 No.5124660 >>5122663 >underage >readingcomprehension

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 22:42:31 2018 No.5124669

>>5124636
That's not a function of BASIC, it's the OS ROMs. When you set the graphics modes, BASIC calls an OS routine. The ROMs in the 400/800 didn't have support for some graphics modes, you would have to manually set the ANTIC registers and display list for them.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 22:46:56 2018 No.5124674 >>5124564 >vector plotting Only horizontal and vertical though, it can't do diagonals.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 26 03:13:17 2018 No.5125065 File: 39 KB, 1908x1023, reddet specung.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5124407 It's a new never before seen form of text spacing for posts that originated on reddit, hence the name.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 26 05:18:31 2018 No.5125143 >>5120684 Speccy does have an expansion slot. There were some third party disk drives, and the microdrive, and on the +3 a built in floppy.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 26 05:58:15 2018 No.5125165 >>5125143 Bit pointless when 90% of software was just designed for a basic 48k Spectrum with a cassette player.

Anonymous Fri Oct 26 14:29:48 2018 No.5125943

>>5114384

There are no Apple II's for sale on EBay in the UK. If there was and I could buy one for a reasonable price I'd have one of them.

It is hard to find Classic Macintosh Computers in the UK as well.

The oldest Computer I own is a PowerMac G4 400 MHz from 1999. I got paid £40 for including an Apple Keyboard and delivery.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 26 15:30:36 2018 No.5126047 >>5124123 Yeah I'm sure a bunch of McCollege Sociology and Art degrees will make a wealthier society. Going to university for the sake of university doesn't make a better society, it matters what people study as well.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 26 15:32:37 2018 No.5126050 >>5125943 Oi youse got yer classic Macintosh loisense innit?

Anonymous Fri Oct 26 15:38:18 2018 No.5126064
File: 32 KB, 474x474, download.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5119906
>>5119906
>>5119906

They had some pretty wild anti piracy schemes.

Some games would do the "What is the first/last word on page X of the user manual?" thing every now and then. Infuriating.

Legacy of the Ancients had this crazy code wheel thing you lined up planets/gems on the outside borders of 2 wheels, then entered the code that appeared inside the wheels. Bizarre. Worked well for them though I guess?

I remember there were a couple games with difficult copy protection so you pretty much had to buy those (one being Silent Service IIRC) otherwise cracked games were the order of the day for commodores!

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 26 15:42:52 2018 No.5126078 >>5121084 10 $ "apple sucks!" 20 goto 10

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 26 15:51:42 2018 No.5126109 >>5126050 The PowerMac G4 runs Mac OS 9.2 so it runs system 6.5 Software and above. Some of the older PC's and Apple Macs go for crazy money now. I've seen people trying to get £200 for Amstrad PC1640's on EBay......

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 26 17:34:31 2018 No.5126348 >>5126078 >dollar sign as an abbreviation for the PRINT statement You're not very bright, are you?

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 05:52:18 2018 No.5127597

>>5124549
To do it in "pure" basic the simplest way would be to calculate each point between the two points and draw each individually. And to draw a pixel you read in the byte the pixel is going in to, or the value with the relative value of the pixel you want to plot and write to back to graphics RAM. More code but hardly the end of the world. You could put that all in a subroutine if that's your thing or cram it all on one line if that's your thing. Or write it all in assembly unless proving that the the ][ was easier for toddlers to write school projects in 40 years ago is your thing.

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 06:17:07 2018 No.5127610
File: 7 KB, 127x153, Cute Reaper.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Do not ever trust the Egyptians ever again. Not even amon. They statued Joan. they tried to erase yhwh. They did it on a planet so full of them with big tree penis's on a planet they found and made their own. In order to get her out of there the planet needs to be destroyed. I do not suppose there is any way to do that is there? I only care and trust 2 people in my LIFE right now. That is those 2. I do not care about anyone but them not anymore. These are the only ones I care about. Everyone else to me is just dust walking okay?

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 06:51:40 2018 No.5127659

>>5127597
>Or write it all in assembly unless proving that the the ][ was easier for toddlers to write school projects in 40 years ago is your thing
Man, sometimes you just want to draw some cool shape in BASIC and not spend hours pondering how to do it with just PEEK and POKE statements (not to mention how incredibly slow it is). The C64 was the only computer with bitmap graphics capability ever that had absolutely no support for it in BASIC because Captain Jack made them use the old PET 8k BASIC so they could save on ROMs.

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 09:40:12 2018 No.5127837

>>5127659
Given how many magazines and users of competing brands looked down on the Commodore computers where you had to use those clunky POKEs all the time, it is amazing how many users got used to them, often remembering part of entire memory maps and hardly ever use BASIC extensions, mostly because you would have to plug in or load that extension first in order to run the software.

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 09:48:53 2018 No.5127853

>>5127837
>>5127659
Most BASICs had at least some graphics commands but they usually only supported a limited amount of the machine's hardware, Atari BASIC in particular.

>couldn't access all the graphics modes on the 400/800 (the XL fixed this problem)
>only some very rudimentary commands for setting the color palette, plotting pixels, and drawing lines
>absolutely no support for any other graphics features and you had to use POKEs for those

The Apple II's BASIC was pretty good as far as graphics commands but it was also a much simpler machine with fewer hardware capabilities to support. Also of all the home computers with redefinable characters, the TI-99/4A was the only one to have BASIC commands in support of it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 09:53:49 2018 No.5127856 >>5127853 TI BASIC was comparatively great as far as its command set and graphics support, too bad it was so slow as to be almost unusable.

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 15:18:48 2018 No.5128381

>>5124072
>Pay taxes
>Get shit in return
vs
>Pay taxes
>Get nothing in return
Tell me again - who is cucked here?

>>5124115
>Hey, I saved 500 bucks on tax this year!
>Sure will come in handy when I will have to pay 50 grands for the hospital bill!
>Definitely gonna send kids to college with that money, if I wait for 60 years

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 15:37:05 2018 No.5128412

>>5124115
You know, now I want to laugh in your face. Digged out the brackets for American federal income taxes. With my income I would pay 15% in States. I pay 18%. While having full health care coverage, education and bunch of other services. Oh woe me, being robbed by 3% of my income for such useless things I could be overcharged when paying myself! The horror! The robbery!
But hey, you can save those 3% to get fucked in whatever happens in your life, beats me. It's not like I had tonsils removed as a kid, then got my leg put together after accident as a teen and got a Masters degree, all for the total of about 30 bucks (that's the cost of getting a photo and paying admission fee to the university) directly spend. Considering the 18% tax rate was since forever, my father clearly could save yearly few hundreds and then bleed himself over my leg, while I would probably have a limp today, making me unfit to work. And no degree.

You Yanks really are fucking retarded

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 17:03:21 2018 No.5128528

>>5128381
>500 bucks

lol doesn't even begin to count the higher cost of living in your backwater shitholes. the yuropoor meme exists for a reason, you make less money and pay more for consumer goods even though you use the EU as organ of jackbooted fascism to prop up your economies through parasitic lending practices against the less economically developed yuropean nations.

>>5128412
everything i said also applies to you

>Oh woe me, being robbed by 3% of my income for such useless things I could be overcharged when paying myself! The horror! The robbery!

why do you type like a spastic woman? they've really done an ample job neutering the yuropean "male", its no wonder your nations are global laughing stocks - our backwater puppet states and seen as targets of easy exploitation by the hordes who will thankfully replace you.

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 17:47:36 2018 No.5128616
File: 11 KB, 526x658, yuros btfo.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5128528
>thread about Apple II
>asshurt Yuros start their hysterics
>people meme them back
>they write walls of text because they are so fragile and insecure about their failed nations that it cuts them deep down
>yet they claim Americans are blind, patriotic fools

What are some good retro video games in which I can play an American giga chad killing yuroshits?

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 17:48:25 2018 No.5128618 The last three posts have nothing to do with the thread topic. Just Saiyan.

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 17:54:13 2018 No.5128634

>>5127659
Used to subscribe to Compute!. They would publish type-in game listings, several versions for each platform they supported, the games mostly using text/ASCII characters for maximum portability. Anyway, they seemed to have some kind of vendetta against the TRS-80 CoCo because they would not do CoCo stuff except in just Color BASIC, they wouldn't use Extended Color BASIC. Later on Compute! bought out some really nice CoCo magazine and essentially ruined it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 17:55:48 2018 No.5128637 >>5119880 The VIC-20 was the cheapest computer ever sold up to that time at an initial $300 and just $99 at the end.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 17:56:49 2018 No.5128640 >>5128637 Wasn't the CoCo cheaper?

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 17:59:23 2018 No.5128646 >>5128640 No. The CoCo sold for about $400 for the 4k model while the VIC-20 was about $200 less.

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 18:07:10 2018 No.5128660

The CoCo had a bit higher screen resolution, a _much_ better BASIC, an actual bitmap graphics mode, but also very little software support. The VIC-20 was cheaper, had a more limited BASIC, no bitmap graphics, lower screen resolution, but it did have lots of support from software devs, plus it could use Atari joysticks instead of the CoCo's proprietary analog sticks.

One advantage the VIC-20 had was that the large body of PET software could be easily converted for it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 18:12:05 2018 No.5128671 >>5128660 It was nice though that the TRS-80 family and the Sinclairs and whatnot could use standard audio tape recorders while Commodore and Atari had proprietary tape decks.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 18:14:43 2018 No.5128678 >>5128671 The Commodore and Atari tape recorders were way more reliable though. Also the Apple II used standard cassette recorders even though cassette storage became irrelevant on it after the first two years.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 18:17:18 2018 No.5128684 >>5128660 It was also annoying how the VIC-20 had free cursor movement in BASIC and the CoCo didn't. To edit program lines, you had to type EDIT line number to display a line so you could modify it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 18:19:22 2018 No.5128689 The engineers reportedly couldn't decide if the VIC-20 should have 4 or 6k of memory, at which point Jack Tramiel settled the argument by telling them 5k.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 18:20:53 2018 No.5128692 >>5128671 It was a bit of a selling point that the VIC-20 could use the same tape recorder as the PET which Commodore made sure to mention, especially because the switch to the IEC interface meant that PET peripherals were not normally usable with it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 18:25:56 2018 No.5128703 Everyone knows the Atari BASIC was the most annoying because it used a very different method of string handling than Microsoft BASIC that made converting programs a bitch if they used a lot of string data.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 18:27:57 2018 No.5128708 >>5128703 The Sinclair BASIC used a method of handling strings/matrices that was also quite different than Microsoft BASIC. There were times I much preferred it, but other times it could be frustrating.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 18:31:44 2018 No.5128717 >>5128703 It was also very sluggish because of how loops and branches were handled and the floating point code was also very poorly optimized.

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 18:47:24 2018 No.5128754
File: 22 KB, 442x293, ti994a.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5115434
I had a TI994a. They had a big following, even after official support for the platform ended; I still got catalogs with new hardware add-ons and software a decade after TI stopped making them.
TI users groups are still around. I still have mine, and will be bringing it home from my Mom's place, along with a bunch of other retro stuff next week. (was nice of her to let me store some of my stuff there)

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 19:27:15 2018 No.5128823

>>5128754
Platforms without mainstream support often still had many user groups and hole-in-the-wall developers. After all, computers were expensive so you weren't just going to throw the thing away because Service Merchandise didn't have an entire wall of software in the electronics section like they did for the C64.

Even infamous duds like the Plus/4 had user groups and literallywho developers.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 19:29:16 2018 No.5128828 >>5128823 The Plus/4 line was mostly a thing in Europe though? I'm pretty sure it collapsed like a flat tire in the US.

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 19:34:11 2018 No.5128839

>>5128828
The C16 was pretty popular in Europe as a low cost gaming machine. As for North America, the Plus/4 was more common here than the C16.

Most PAL software for the 264 line was designed to support 16k and cassettes while NTSC stuff was more often disk and 64k. Also NTSC stuff tended to be application software rather than games since the Plus/4's two principle advantages over the C64 (faster CPU and disk drive) were more beneficial for applications.

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 19:39:28 2018 No.5128849

The TRS-80 line was heavily based around user groups and mail order/hole-in-the-wall software devs because retailers wouldn't stock software for a computer they didn't sell and which was made by a competing retailer. Mostly it was just Apple, Commodore, and PC stuff that you could walk into K-Mart and buy software for and which had the support of A-list developers.

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 19:47:00 2018 No.5128859

>>5128717
Atari BASIC scans for line numbers by starting at the beginning of the program and working down from there whereas Microsoft BASIC starts from the current line and works its way down. This also applies to FOR...NEXT loops which means that the further down near the bottom of the program listing it is, the slower they will execute. If you have a program with 100 lines and line 90 has a FOR...NEXT, then it will execute much slower than one on line 20 because BASIC has to search down from the top. Even worse than that, Atari BASIC processes all line numbers as floating point.

One trick you can do of course is to disable video output with POKE 559,0 (POKE 559,34 turns it back on) which will speed up the CPU by 30%.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 19:50:44 2018 No.5128864 >>5128754 Uggh, the keyboard on those things was so bad.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 20:00:04 2018 No.5128882 >>5128646 CoCo had a 4k, 16k, and 32k model. I can't imagine they sold any significant number of them with 4k even though for some unaccountable reason they were still listed in Radio Shack catalogs as late as 1987.

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 20:02:30 2018 No.5128883
File: 84 KB, 500x647, ti994a_500.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5128823
The TI was mainstream for a while, but was quickly outpaced by the Commodore. Most of my friends had Commodores, even my grandfather had a Commodore.
My cousins had a Timex Sinclair, so that should make some of the UK people happy.
And I never had the luxury of disk drives, I was stuck using a cassette drive (could use any off the shelf unit with a remote line jack) I also lacked an Extended basic cart, which killed me.

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 20:02:49 2018 No.5128884

>>5128882
The C16 was a stupid idea too. Who was still going to buy a 16k machine in 1984? Memory by that time was so, so much cheaper than it had been in the late 70s. There was no market anymore for low memory machines like that and everyone knew it, but it seems that marketing execs for the longest time just couldn't accept it.

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 20:05:19 2018 No.5128889

>>5128883
There were many things that sunk it, one of the biggest being Texas Instruments' refusal to publish tech info for the computer and actively trying to stop third parties from developing for it to the point where the later white case TI/99-4A actually included a lockout system to prevent the use of unauthorized cartridges.

Now Atari also didn't want to publish tech info for the 400/800 at first, but they didn't go so far as to actually try and stop people from developing software for them.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 20:19:04 2018 No.5128903 The expansion setup on the TI wasn't thought out very well and you needed the big cage thing to have 64k of memory (the console itself was 16k only). Nobody knew how to code for the 9900 CPU either, at least nobody involved in consumer-level software.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 20:19:13 2018 No.5128904 >>5128889 I was aware of that lockout feature, which is why I was glad to own the DeLorean version. If it weren't for TI being so stubborn, it would have proven to be memorable, being the first 16-bit personal computer to hit the market.

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 20:22:39 2018 No.5128907

>>5128904
The 8086 had been out since 1978, there were undoubtedly homebrew/S-100 machines using that before the original TI/99 came out in 79. It is true that the 9900 was the first 16-bit microprocessor to market (came out in 1976), but they couldn't find any takers so they decided to build a computer around it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 20:26:55 2018 No.5128914 >>5128903 Also the keyboard and 32 column text were horrible for using application software.

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 20:29:41 2018 No.5128917

>>5128907
True, and the 8086 has one hell of a legacy; I just wonder what would things be like if Texas Instruments had been a little more open and flexible. I was pretty young at the time, and was pissed when my TI was no longer actively supported. Really sucked big time, but it was my first steps into a much bigger world, especially when I finally got my first IBM PC compatible machine.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 20:30:44 2018 No.5128918 >>5128914 No arguments there. That's a valid complaint.

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 20:30:48 2018 No.5128919

TI mostly targeted the educational market with the 99/4A. This was an interesting choice, but the market for business computers was oversaturated and TI already had some experience with toys/learning products. Unfortunately, Apple already secured a vice-like grip on the educational market and also had a completely open computer anyone could develop for.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 20:35:55 2018 No.5128926 >>5128660 >The CoCo had a bit higher screen resolution, a _much_ better BASIC, an actual bitmap graphics mode, but also very little software support. Also god level CPU.

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 20:37:57 2018 No.5128928

>>5128919
They were trying to sell a 16-bit computer at 8-bit prices. Also TI didn't skimp on quality, the TI-99/4A was a very sturdy, well-built computer with high quality components compared with Commodore's aluminized cardboard heat sinks and that cost more money too. They probably never made a profit on the things.

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 20:42:28 2018 No.5128931

It's easy to find TI/99-4As often still in the original box and in nearly mint condition because there was a lot of unsold stock after the market collapse in 83 and it wasn't a viable platform for very long (about 2-1/2 years) so many people didn't keep their TIs that long and soon got rid of them. That's in comparison to Apple IIs, C64s, and PC compatibles which are often beaten to hell because they were used hard for many years.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 20:44:35 2018 No.5128935 >>5128919 It was a decent game machine though; Parsec and Burgertime were near perfect, and it had the best Star Trek arcade port at the time. I won't argue that developing or programming the thing wasn't a chore though.

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 20:58:03 2018 No.5128948

>>5128935
>I won't argue that developing or programming the thing wasn't a chore though
The oddball CPU and the 9918 graphics chip which doesn't permit direct access of the video registers or VRAM. Also the 16k of main memory in the computer is on the video bus and can't be directly accessed by the CPU.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 21:00:49 2018 No.5128952 The original 99/4 used a TMS 9918 for the video. This is the same chip found in the Colecovision and it supports programmable characters only. The 99/4A used an improved version, the 9918A which added a bitmap mode (the MSX1 also uses this chip).

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 21:12:34 2018 No.5128975 The TI's BASIC was so fucking slow due to being double interpreted and having to go through the video chip registers to access program text and variables.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 21:19:28 2018 No.5128982 >>5128948 If you had expansion memory (also required Extended BASIC), that didn't use the VDU RAM and eliminated the bottlenecks. Up to 64k with the expansion box, although BASIC was limited to 24k max.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 21:24:58 2018 No.5128993 >>5128982 Third party expansion cards let you use even more RAM. The 9900 had 18 address lines so it could access 256k max, but I don't think it had the last two connected up so only 64k could be directly accessed.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 21:28:21 2018 No.5129001 >>5115563 >technology had advanced quite a bit as well. So it was replaced by better machines. Except for schools hardly anyone had Apples. I had a TS1000. Best computer ever

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 21:31:09 2018 No.5129006 >>5129001 >So it was replaced by better machines. Depends on how you define better. The Apple II was much better than the C64 at productivity software.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 21:31:44 2018 No.5129008 >>5116352 >Apple had an iron grip on the school market That's how they survived. Much like CNN and doctors offices

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 21:32:57 2018 No.5129010 >>5116406 Fast Hackem by the basement boys was a godsend

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 21:37:32 2018 No.5129014 >>5115535 I don't get it either. Apparently with a lot of those later A8 games like Ultima IV and Ballblazer, they never even tested the things on a real 800.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 21:42:57 2018 No.5129029 >>5116726 So, you were really good at Odell Lake?

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 21:44:38 2018 No.5129032 >>5117827 >business features like 80 column text or a C128

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 21:45:39 2018 No.5129036

>>5127659
>sometimes
The only sometimes that was was when you were a toddler in the early 80's. In that case you used the apples as school. While the big kids laughed at you for not using logo. It's kind of like arguing over which brand of safety scissors is better to cut a ream of paper in half when you're sitting on hydraulic guillotine cutter.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 21:47:20 2018 No.5129041 >>5129032 Obviously referring to when the C64 first came out in 82.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 22:03:49 2018 No.5129074 >>5114384 Full color vs. greenscreen

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 22:08:34 2018 No.5129085 File: 121 KB, 1000x762, snap20.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5129074 ???

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 27 22:35:37 2018 No.5129127 >>5129036 This anon seems to have some repressed negative memories of his school's computer lab.

Anonymous Sat Oct 27 22:55:59 2018 No.5129156
File: 112 KB, 640x360, untitled.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5129085
funny thing is that the Apple literally WASN'T a color computer in that the signal it output was pure black+white with no chroma component. The color you see on that screen is faked with clever abuse of the NTSC color clock.
https://www.xtof.info/blog/?p=768

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 28 00:04:33 2018 No.5129267 >>5129156 As someone said before, it was inspired in part by the Cromemco Dazzler. There were no custom video chips around yet in 1977 and Apple wouldn't have had the money or technical expertise to design one anyway.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 28 00:07:18 2018 No.5129270 >>5129085 IIRC the familiar monochrome Monitor /// came out in 1980. Apple didn't have a color monitor of their own until the mid-80s and one had to get a third party display like the Amdeks.

Anonymous Sun Oct 28 04:20:41 2018 No.5129574

One of the worst childhood memories I have was getting the VIC-20 Aztec Challenge for a birthday present. Compared with the absolute awesomeness that was the C64 version, you got this thing that looked as if it was written in BASIC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHnlzdGqiEc

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 28 04:22:44 2018 No.5129576 Something something dysentery something something you died something something Literally the only connection Apple II makes with /vr/ for me. And I still liked the sequels for PC more

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 28 09:16:22 2018 No.5129928 >>5128703 Atari BASIC affords the user a lot of ways to waste memory you don't have on other BASICs. >long variable names >48 bit FP variables >really inefficient string handling system

Anonymous Sun Oct 28 14:06:04 2018 No.5130349
File: 115 KB, 640x480, 1979_TI-99-4_with_Speech_Synthesizer,_RF_modulator,_keyboard_overlays_(adjusted).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5128864
???
Are you sure you're not thinking of the earlier version, the one with the chiclets? There was nothing wrong with the 4A's keyboard.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 28 14:08:38 2018 No.5130356 >>5129574 C64 Aztec Challenge wasn't that awesome.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 28 21:09:51 2018 No.5131052 >>5129127 Not at all. I had lots of laughs watching 70's babies doing graphics in basic.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 28 21:11:03 2018 No.5131057 @5131052 This post was completely worth bumping this thread for.

Anonymous Sun Oct 28 22:26:51 2018 No.5131192

>>5114473
>Thing is, a lot of those low end home computers were just used as video game consoles with keyboards.

tell me why a piece of shit such as the ZX Spectrum, or even the Amstrad, still receives dozens of new games, if not hundreds, every year from all over Europe?

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 28 22:28:37 2018 No.5131196 >>5131192 Because it's realistically possible for one guy to code for them while it's not on something like a N64 or Saturn? Derp?

Anonymous Mon Oct 29 05:55:45 2018 No.5131835

>>5128528
>doesn't even begin to count the higher cost of living in your backwater shitholes.
It's the reverse, but whatever. It's not like arguments ever reach Amerifat. Come on, tell me with straight face you can have a decent living for 400 bucks a month, without saving and looking for cheap substitution. Go on, entertain me.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 05:57:53 2018 No.5131836 >>5130356 Aztec Challenge's gameplay must have been appealing to quite a few people if something like Temple Run is popular today.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 06:00:09 2018 No.5131838 File: 1.68 MB, 500x281, baitchose.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5131835 Remember to ignore him

Anonymous Mon Oct 29 06:02:16 2018 No.5131839

>>5131838
Sure thing. Preferably also put fingers in your ears and start singing, because facts could deflate your over-confident ego, burger. And we all know that ego is all you've got.
God, you are so easy to trigger it's absurd and then going all the way for "just pretending" and "just kidding" route.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 06:02:30 2018 No.5131840 >>5131836 very much so. i have always suspected temple run was a bit of a rip off / re-imagining of aztec challenge.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 06:30:49 2018 No.5131889 >>5131836 The monotonic gameplay may be fine but the programming is shoddy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 06:32:09 2018 No.5131892 >>5131839 Like how you didn't actually answer the question, though.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 06:37:59 2018 No.5131912 >>5131840 They even ripped off the Aztec motif.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 06:39:03 2018 No.5131914 >>5131892 Like how you didn't ask any

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 06:40:59 2018 No.5131916 >>5131914 You're right, I didn't. This faggot did, though. >>5131835 >Come on, tell me with straight face you can have a decent living for 400 bucks a month, without saving and looking for cheap substitution. Of course, you already knew that. :^)

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 06:42:36 2018 No.5131920 The C64 Aztec Challenge showed a lot of ambition (especially the FPS Level 1 as opposed to the side scrolling on the Atari and VIC-20 versions) but the actual execution was fairly shoddy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 06:47:49 2018 No.5131928 The C64 Aztec Challenge showed a lot of ambition (especially the FPP Level 1 as opposed to the side scrolling on the Atari and VIC-20 versions) but the actual execution was fairly shoddy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 06:49:37 2018 No.5131929 >>5131920 >especially the FPS Level 1 >FPS lel

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 07:13:23 2018 No.5131950 >>5131912 damn. what a bunch of lamers.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 07:16:41 2018 No.5131951 >>5131928 oh for fucks sake. the game was released in 1983 and programmed entirely in 6502 assembler. the game was considered mind blowing in '83 and is still awesome to this day. besides, all games for c64 back then were like this.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 08:24:17 2018 No.5132042 Fucking asshole deleted his typo.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 08:27:51 2018 No.5132048 Paul Norman was a much better musician than he was a programmer.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 08:31:54 2018 No.5132056 >>5131916 ... the fuck? You are asking me to reply to my own question? Are you really this fucking dense?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 08:34:22 2018 No.5132060 >>5131950 >lamers This is how shit was done for most of the 80s and in a way is done to this day, but with increased level of complexity, it's easier to claim you are "similar", rather than direct rip-off

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 08:48:21 2018 No.5132082 >>5132056 >i am le samefaggit! This is getting pathetic now.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 21:51:55 2018 No.5133436 >>5132082 Said the guy who can't follow basic track of a discussion

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 21:53:11 2018 No.5133439 Daily reminder Apple sucked cocks, sucks cocks and will continue to suck cocks. But first, you suck its cock by never stopping to worship a bullshit company selling fucking good feels rather than proper merchandise.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 21:56:53 2018 No.5133442 >>5118583 It's like you are new to the world and don't know it's OK for Americans to chimp out, but just point finger at them and say "no, u", and they go apeshit.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 21:59:35 2018 No.5133448 >>5131196 Imagine being so close to the point and then still miss it

Anonymous Mon Oct 29 22:02:08 2018 No.5133457

>>5120684
... neither of which made Apple II worth its absurd price.
It's like decades fly, but Appledrones never change, always paying bullshit sums of money for bullshit products and then acting smugly about their glorified toys with 3rd rate insides.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 22:04:41 2018 No.5133462 >>5119912 Considering the level of shit Williams went through when working with Atari on purely corporate level, it's no wonder he didn't want to deal with them, especially not after the crash

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 30 04:11:04 2018 No.5133983 >>5133436 Anything to avoid answering questions, right?

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 30 04:48:37 2018 No.5134029 >>5133983 Ask the question, so you can get the answer, asshat

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 30 05:25:24 2018 No.5134058 >>5134029 But it was already asked, right here in this post. >>5131835 You're just going to pretend that it's your post again, though.

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/vr/ - Retro Games