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/vr/ - Retro Games

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5025072 No.5025072 [Reply] [Original]

Why did the cinematic platformer die off?

>> No.5025085

They're more cumbersome than tank controls.

>> No.5025106

>>5025085
Oddworld wasn't cumbersome.

>> No.5025195

FFVII happened basically.

Out went cinematic platformers, in came cinematic RPGs.

>> No.5025198

The Blackthrone boss battle against that fuck stick at the end was so cheap and shit that the genre deserved to die.

>> No.5025205

>>5025072

The 32X port of this game singlehandedly justifies that piece of shit. Besides the model 1 arcade ports I mean

>> No.5025274

What are Limbo and Inside

>> No.5025280

>>5025274
Not true cinematic platformers due to the way their controls are designed.

>> No.5025292

blackthorne was pretty shit. you can pretty easily lock yourself out of progressing simply by using a grenade in the wrong place

>> No.5025309

>>5025280

That's the blandest fucking comment possible.
To be qualified as cinematic a game needs to stop the gameplay to drop exposition? Also, what the fuck is the connection between the controls and narrative structure?
An argument can be made against Limbo, but Inside is all about exposition through gameplay, the story is always in motion.

>> No.5025318

>>5025309
The point of cinematic platformers was to make the movement more realistic than in other platformers. People assigned the term "cinematic" not because of the atmosphere / narrative structure but because realistic movements = more and longer animation pauses (i.e., miniature cinematics) between interactions. Those games don't control very realistically, they're too smooth, not animated enough, and have unrealistic aspects, for example Limbo's jumping isn't realistic at all.

>> No.5025356

>>5025318

That seems a little arbitrary. I often see them as platformers that are more of an experience than a plain videogame. With more emphasis on narrative, usually the gamey aspects are toned down, like HUDs or inventories.

>> No.5025385

The atmospheric / narrative elements employed in these games are what's arbitrary, not the mechanical aspects that define them. Look at Prince of Persia. It's not narrative heavy at all yet it's one of the games that pioneered the cinematic platformer. Jordan Mechner wanted to make a platformer that felt realistic at the time, and he achieved that by rotoscoping a real person for detailed and accurate animations. More detailed animations meant more drawn out actions with a higher commitment when performing them, which made the controls "cumbersome" i.e. more realistic as a result.

When I look at indie cinematic platformers I see what you're saying. I think they usually forget how necessary the mechanical designs of these games are. Most indie developers seem to forget this part. Throwing a moody noir atmosphere onto a Super Mario Bros. game and hiding the HUD would constitute as a cinematic platformer according to that logic.

>> No.5025605

>>5025106
What about stuff like Flashback, Out of this World, and Prince of Persia? They all seem pretty cumbersome to me.

>> No.5025629

Oddworld and Heart of Darkness were the only good ones.

>> No.5025640

>>5025629
The one in the OP is good

>> No.5025746

>>5025072
They evolved into modern day shit like Uncharted and Prince of Persia.

>> No.5025761

>>5025746
Yep this is the real answer. More specifically, it was Fade to Black and Tomb Raider 1 that began the transition from 2D to 3D, and 2D games in general were making way for the 3D era and were seen as unfashionable.

As for why indies aren't touching the genre, I suspect it's the amount of animation frames you need to draw for the characters. It's not quick and easy and indie developers tend to choose retro aesthetics precisely because it allows them to cheap out on production values.

Those games back then were about pushing the technological and artistic envelope.

>> No.5025803

>>5025746
Too bad those games have forgotten how to make movement realistic. Now you have shit like this >>5018954 (jump to 1:05) where basic physical movements aren't handled right anymore.

>> No.5025836

Why are people hating on Blackthorne? I loved that shit as a kid. Flashback too.

>> No.5026149

>>5025072
Because they fucking sucked. Sure loved games that played at a snail's pace with sluggish controls all because it wanted to be like a movie. You like this shit OP? Then fuck off to /v/. Asshole.

>> No.5026156

With each passing year and gen, people have less patience for this kind of controls sadly.

Bummer, Blackthorne was rad. Also Oddworld.

>> No.5026160

>>5025072
isn't uncharted a cinematic platformer? what about tomb raider

>> No.5028152

It's just not popular with the casuals.

>> No.5028376

>>5025072
Because millennials and zoomers are too riddled with adhd after getting vaccinated as babies and force fed estrogen throughout childhood that they don’t have the patience to fully appreciate the superior cinematic platformer experience.

>> No.5028593

>>5028376
Based AND redpilled

>> No.5028636

>>5025318
It's a bit glorified to make it more like an action thriller, but the Uncharted series keeps that genre alive I'd say, albeit kond of brainless in difficulty.

>> No.5028701

>>5025072
>Why did the cinematic platformer die off?

Game was ace. Totally reminds me on Flashback just in another setting done in a good way.

>> No.5028704

>>5026160
>>5028636
Yeah, Uncharted and Tomb Raider are definitely what the games evolved into. And I'd also say that with better graphics and physics engines, the need for longer animations and more rigid movement systems to accommodate them is lesser, which is why those games can get away with having very smooth (to the point of even slippery) controls. They do leave something to be desired of the movements though, Tomb Raider and from what I've seen of the new Uncharted (haven't played one since the first) really don't have very realistic jumping mechanics.

>> No.5028774

>>5025836
Because they couldn't beat the final boss.

>> No.5028970

>>5025292
>blackthorne was pretty shit. you can pretty easily lock yourself out of progressing simply by using a grenade in the wrong place
Then you just press start, choose to restart the level and know better on the next try.

>> No.5028985

>>5025205
>The 32X port of this game singlehandedly justifies that piece of shit.
>>5025205
My friend is getting me back my Genesis + 32x after almost 2 decades of borrowing. I may have to pick this title up just because you said something. I bought the 32x for doom....so I probably will like blackthorn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsS_uhs2HPU

>> No.5029007

>>5028376
>>5028593


I know its not /vr/

I enjoyed "Shenk" for the PC. It was dark/moody. Controls were very good, and I felt quite responsive. Animation is good, but the art style is a bit "flash animation"ish. I enjoyed the fuck out of it. I did not like its sequel.

Also, recently there was a newer "Strider". It falls under the other made up category "metroidvania". It was amazing. Great game. Some generic bullshit, but this is to be expected. Runs at high refresh rates....120hz looks superb on a crt.

>> No.5029030

>>5025072
They were never more than niche in the first place. People who want fun platforming gameplay stay away from the clunky "realistic" movement and controls of cinematic platformers, and people who want long story-driven games play RPGs which do it better.

>> No.5029049

>>5026160
Sort of. Traditional "cinematic" platformers were about having realistic limitations of characters and were far more about interactive story than fast-paced action sequences or polished combat. Uncharted and Tomb Raider have long, literal cinematic cutscenes in them, sure, but they aren't exactly realistic in their actual gameplay and portrayal of combat or human limitation.

>> No.5029059

>>5025072
There was little to no possible evolution for it. The most advanced one ever created was Abe's Exoddus, after which the genre pretty much up and died. The few examples that exist like Limbo and Inside weren't very good at all in terms of gameplay, and Little Nightmares is really stretching the definition.

>>5025195
>>5025309
>i dunt no wat a cinematic platfumur is

>>5028376
What do Jews have to do with this?

>> No.5029069

>>5028985
It looks better on the SNES.

>> No.5029075

>>5029059
>Little Nightmares is really stretching the definition.
So is Limbo and Inside. In fact, it's not stretching it, it's outright defying it.

>> No.5029164

>>5029075

if the definition of the genre is "platformers with bad controls", perhaps, but those three games are about as close as you're going to get nowadays to the concept of a game that's just screens with mild puzzles you have to solve

>> No.5029229

>>5029164
It's more like platformers with realistic movements, which in most cases meant slow movements, or "bad controls" like you said. Those games do not have realistic movements. Cinematic platformers aren't the same as puzzle platformers.

>> No.5029265

>>5029069
No shit. Spritework's better, animation's better and there's more of it. Also sounds better (subjective though).

>> No.5029332
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5029332

>>5028376
please project about your fetish in the funnyjunk comment section you came from

>> No.5029342

I like Nosferatu

>> No.5029387

>>5025605
I don't think Flashback was all that cumbersome. Cumbersome implies lack of control and unpredictably bad results, but movement there was pretty consistent, if deliberate. Also there wasn't many levels where you really had to fight against controls to progress.

>> No.5029416

>>5025072
Are we talking about genre of platformers based around realistic acrobatics and climbing? Because just saying, Tomb Raider and Uncharted are still around.

And even if you mean only 2D ones - Limbo, Inside, >The Fall, and Deadlight keep the genre alive to this day.

>> No.5029418

>>5029049
Well, but they are literally cinematic and narrative driven. Any Uncharted game is basically a playable Indiana Jones movie.

They're not 100% realistic but neither are movies, so it evens out I guess?

>> No.5029419

>>5029332

>t. estrogen filled zoomer

>> No.5029424

>>5029075
No, it's evolving it.
It's like saying that Super Mario 64 isn't a 'real' 3D platformer because it doesn't play like Bug!, due to freely rotating camera and analog movement.

If the genre is actively evolving, that would mean exact OPPOSITE of it being dead, that it has a tiny renaissance.

>> No.5029428

>>5028376
You typed all that without engaging a SINGLE braincell, well done!

>> No.5029447

>>5029424
How can it be an "evolution" when it's just turning the games into another genre that already existed, i.e. puzzle platformers?

>> No.5029456
File: 1.21 MB, 1281x4542, 1001c0fff1c92c28e56604b35086f02255b7d0e4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5029456

>>5029419
i don't want to be a part of your fetish

>> No.5029507

>>5029447
First, traditional puzzle platformers usually bank on a single gimmick like rewinding time (Braid) or making clones of yourself (too many games to count), while these new games don't really do that. Instead, they have more environmental puzzles that are closer to... cinematic platformers like Flashback, Prince of Persia and Blackthorne. Pretty much 100% of cinematic platformers included puzzles anyway. It's just these new cinematic platformers focus on the puzzles over the clunky weird combat.

>> No.5029572

>>5029507
>traditional puzzle platformer
>Braid
Er...

>Pretty much 100% of cinematic platformers included puzzles anyway. It's just these new cinematic platformers focus on the puzzles over the clunky weird combat.
Still missing the point of what makes a cinematic platformer a cinematic platformer, which means that so are the devs of these new games. See >>5025318. Player movements aren't realistic? Then it's not a cinematic platformer.

>> No.5029614

>>5025072
triple A publishers don't like them, modern gamers are constantly crying that they're too hard, and they're very difficult for indie devs to actually make assets for because of all the unique character animations and set pieces.

>> No.5029867

>>5025072
>derpy, crossed-eye protag

>> No.5030159

Grid snap platformers

>> No.5030176

>>5029614
No they're don't, no they're not, and no they're not.

>> No.5030790

>>5029416
I still have to try Deadlight. This really beautiful looking game PLANET ALPHA just came out too, although from the looks of it the player locomotion doesn't look realistic again.

>> No.5032234

Why are the closest modern games always indie like Braid, Inside, Limbo then?
Look up literally ANY cinematic platformer on youtube. A scragglybearded 20 something will be shouting about how hard it is guaranteed.
If they have sprites there's WAY more that needs to be drawn to account for "realistic" movements. This isn't even up for debate.
Try again.

>> No.5032236

>>5032234
>>5030176

>> No.5032243

>>5030176
Not to question the profundity of "No they're don't", but it might help the conversation if you could elaborate a little more on why exactly you disagree.

>> No.5032283

Is early castlevania a proto-cinematic platformer?

>> No.5034227

>>5029164
I wouldn't say Oddworld had bad controls,they were perfect for the games.

>> No.5034269

>>5025072
They became quick time events

>> No.5034318

>>5028376
Absolutely epic comment

>> No.5034625

>>5032283
I think that's an unfair assessment to make because cinematic platformers, and a tendency towards realism in games in general, have their root in the West. That consciousness wasn't really present in Japan. Whether it had an impact on games like Prince of Persia is another thing, and is something I don't think is verifiable right now, but I think it's probably safe to say that it didn't, since Jordan Mechner was already in the business of creating innovative 2D games tending towards realism before Castlevania released with Karateka.

>> No.5034662

>>5026149
Uhhhh... Man... You realise you are the one bashing retro games in here right? Like maybe you need to go to /v/ yourself?

>> No.5035349

>>5034662
>YOU MUST LIKE ALL RETRO GAMES OR ELSE YOU'RE /V/!
Not how it works kiddo.

>> No.5035376

>>5034269
aka modern triple AAA zoomer games

>> No.5035415

>>5035376
>triple AAA
Name one AAAAAAAAA game besides Serious Sam.

>> No.5036814
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5036814

>>5035415
>Name one AAAAAAAAA game besides Serious Sam.
criminally underrated

>> No.5037114

>>5035415
Doom 2

>> No.5037149

>>5025761
We've been getting indie games with better graphics than Prince of Persia for a while now.

I'd say the reason is because the appeal is limited. I know the genre has its fans, but even though Prince of Persia itself was one of, if not the, first games I played, I don't enjoy it at all. Intentional clunkiness.

>> No.5037171

>>5035415
Dragon Ball Z has a lot of AAAAAAAAA

>> No.5039149

Heart of Darkness is actually a horrible game. I'm replaying it and the amount of bullshit is incredible, to the point where they have to give you a tutorial on how to work with the contrived controls if you die enough.

>> No.5039815

>>5039149
>complaining about needing to know the controls in order to play the game.
the only bullshit here is you. Heart of Darkness compared to some of the others has more beginner-friendly controls. It succeeds okay at removing the bullshit "pixel perfect" hit detection of Another World and takes out the shitty ledge jump in Flashback. These games really didn't have a standard for control schemes and "different" doesn't inherently mean "bad."

>> No.5039875

>>5025198
>that fuck stick
Pics, pls.

>> No.5040046

>>5039815
>complaining about needing to know the controls in order to play the game.
That's not what I'm complaining about. I'm complaining about the fact that it's not on a grid, making it somewhat annoying to gauge the distance of your jumps or where you need to stand to climb onto something. The lack of precision is unnecessary in my opinion and makes the game more about trial and error than about skill. And there are instances where the controls are just unclear, for example, there was a room I kept dying in because I had to apparently hold the jump button after I fell in order to grab onto a hand hold in the background. The game eventually told me this for this particular room which tells me that it was a known confusion and instead of streamlining the controls a little, they throw up a goofy message after you die a bunch of times. Compared to a game like Blackthorne at least, I think the game kinda sucks.

>> No.5040649

>>5040046
Alright. I know that it is grid-based because I've seen the level build screens in gaming magazines at the time, but I can see what you mean about gauging distance when you first start with the game. Really don't understand the lack of precision thing. I thought it was fine and definitely a step up in improvement from at least the two games that the devs made before (Another World and Flashback)
As for the jump issue, I really think that in a platformer that you don't just "hold right and jump to win" it was expected that you look at the controls first before playing. Especially with both a dedicated run button and two buttons assigned to different forms of projectile attack. Modern games are more likely to follow a standard control scheme but then it was definitely a "look at the manual" thing and even then they had the foresight to program in control reminders if you fail consecutively in the same area. As for the mechanic itself, I think it's pretty intuitive to have you just hold the jump to automatically latch onto the closest grab-able platform, as oppose to quickly releasing the jump and hitting it again to grab on. It eliminates any problems caused by slowdown during platforming segments that apparently this game had on certain TVs.
I really don't think that comparison does it justice. Blackthorne is good but also has sluggish controls. Every one of these games made before Limbo does. Essentially picking and choosing which flaws you want to work with on the basis of personal preference.

>> No.5040652
File: 4 KB, 284x177, images (3).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5040652

>>5025274
Fucking incredible, that's what.

>> No.5040654

>>5030159
snapformers

>> No.5041029

>>5040649
>but I can see what you mean about gauging distance when you first start with the game.
This isn't my first start though. It is difficult to gauge distances, and the edges of landings, for two reasons: one, the backgrounds are drawn in a fluid style to obscure the grid (which does have the benefit of making the world less grid-like and more natural), and two, because when you move, you don't step forward and seemingly "snap" to a grid. The grid is so thin that it doesn't appear that there is one. These two things combined makes gauging the distances of things not as precise as in a game like Blackthorne, where everyone is clearly defined.

>Blackthorne is good but also has sluggish controls.
Maybe, but the controls and distances of everything are transparent, and once you know them past the first level or so, they don't feel sluggish anymore for the rest of the game. I find it easier to navigate that game, or Prince of Persia or Flashback, than Heart of Darkness.

>Every one of these games made before Limbo does.
I don't know why Limbo keeps being mentioned in this thread, the movement physics / animations in that game make it by definition not a cinematic platformer.

>> No.5041091

>>5025318

But no human can jump their own heights from standing, and jumping is a pretty important part of platforming. Doesn't that make every platformer "unrealistic"?

>> No.5041121

>>5041091
keep thinking that whitey.

>> No.5041342

>>5041029
I mean, I guess. But I personally did not have these issues with it. At least to the same extent that you're describing. I felt it was more of a slight aspect of experimenting, and as loading times and checkpoints are very forgiving for the genre, it really wasn't that big of a deal.

And here in lies the problem. I feel the exact opposite about the Prince of Persia and Flashback style control scheme. Unlike Heart of Darkness, that I eased into relatively quickly after the first two levels and a little bit before disc 2, I felt that I was constantly struggling with the controls especially the jump in Flashback specifically. Right up to the end fight where I was having to make sure my jump was perfect to get up onto the ledges. And it's not like I grew up with Heart of Darkness either to have some sort of control bias. I had my first complete blind playthrough of pretty much every one of these games later in life. It actually turned me off completing Flashback for the longest time. I don't know if it was just because I played the Megadrive version or what.

The Limbo/Inside formula was fully intended to be a modern take on the genre. Playdead was very transparent about that. Pretty much every game that people still consider to be cinematic platformers that gets made now emulates that. I guess you don't consider these to be cinematic platformers which is fine, but that was the intent.