/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.4963772]

name a single retro jrpg that is deeper more philosophical than this?

[Anonymous No.4963847]

Ultima 4

[Anonymous No.4963863]

>>4963847
never heard of it is it any great?

[babbage's gramps !RATGzMALLY No.4963903]

That's probably as good as it gets for JRPGs and it's still pretty shaky and ultimately nihilistic. Almost everything Japanese goes through the Shinto lens and Gnostic concepts fair better than most.

[Anonymous No.4963923]

>>4963903
TRUE true

[Anonymous No.4963926]

>>4963772
Tactics Ogre, Final Fantasy Tactics

[Anonymous No.4963935]

I think Xenogears missed its calling, its philosophical stuff is sort of take-it-or-leave-it, but its emotional content is surprisingly mature for a JRPG.

[Anonymous No.4964042]

>>4963772
Valkyrie profile
Super Mario RPG
Earthbound
Terranigma
Chrono Cross/Trigger
Final Fantasy VIII
Here's 6, just to start. Almost everything is deeper than this overhyped pretentious shit. Saying Xenogears is "deep philosophical" is somethething that only the kind of brainlets that are stunned by garbage tier philosophy things like Waking Life think. Don't be this person. Find the deep meaning in small things.

[Anonymous No.4964097]

>>4963772
I just beat Xenoblade 2 and am playing this now linking the two with my own head canon. Lots of fun.

>>4964042
Dude, we get that you don't like Xenogears... but to call Mario RPG's story deeper proves that either you don't know what you're talking about, or have never played Xenogears. I'm betting on both.

[Anonymous No.4964115]

>>4964097
You played Xenoblade 1 before you started this linking project, I hope.

[Anonymous No.4964134]

>>4964042
why you gotta shit on waking life man.

[Anonymous No.4964151]

>>4964042
tryingthishard/10

[Anonymous No.4964331]

>>4963772

[Anonymous No.4964343]

>>4964042
Most of your choices are terrible, but Valkyrie Profile is absolutely top notch. The DS sequel, Covenant of the Plume, is even better in terms of storyline. Combat in that one has serious flaws, but any story where you sacrifice your own friends' souls so you can get revenge against the gods is fucking awesome. The branching storylines and multiple endings are excellent too.

[Anonymous No.4964402]

>>4963772

The original idea that would have made it Final Fantasy VII or even Chrono Trigger 2.

[Anonymous No.4964430]

>>4964097
No, didn't have the means to. I watched a lore exploration video and read a detailed plot synopsis, so I understand how 1 ties in to 2.

Morytha immediately made me think of Zeboim, and made me want to do this Xenogears play through. It's awesome how Morytha is in close proximity to the world tree, like how Zeboim is in close proximity to Babel Tower. Xenogears has story enough parts to cannibalize for many games to come.

[Anonymous No.4964431]

>>4964430
Was meant for>>4964115

[Anonymous No.4964441]

>>4964430

The idea from VII made Babel Tower the remains of a colony. Fuck...this game had more potential than most.

[Anonymous No.4964543]

And it's more engaging and well-paced to boot!

[Anonymous No.4964613]

>>4963926
FFT

>preach to cuar

>jp scroll glitch

>poach wildbow

>deep dungeon

>final boss lv99, dies with hasted excalibur + 2 swords easily

so deep

TO

>team of archers

so deep

[Anonymous No.4964667]

>>4963772

How accessible this is if i would start it right now? Been wanting a good rpg for some time now and my backlog dates all the way to ps1 so might as well go from here?

[Anonymous No.4964806]

>>4964441
>The idea from VII
What idea?

[Anonymous No.4964830]

not really JRPG but Action RPG

[Anonymous No.4964990]

>>4964613
It's almost impressive for such a short post to have so much failure.

[Anonymous No.4965032]

>>4964613
pssssst...

the thread isn't really about gameplay mechanics

[Anonymous No.4965054]

>>4965032
xeno had a much better deeper game mechanics and story. FFT was loldeep and I remember TO being better but wasn't memorable. the only memorable thing to me was the fucking mold in the dungeon that was way harder than FFT. Even my gang of archers had a hard time there.

maybe I just have a different definition of deep

[Anonymous No.4965060]

>>4965054
oh yeah vargrant story was very good in both. that game rapes everyone

[Anonymous No.4965071]

>>4963772
>Hurr muh cruel, unfair existence
>Hurr muh god killing
>Hurr muh snippets of anime gnosticism and Jungian psychology, fucking masterpiece
There is literally nothing philosophical to Xenogears, especially nothing you can't find in other games, often expressed better, more concisely and less melodramatical.

Unless you consider some discount Nietzsche tier one liners "philosophy" and if you do you really should pick up an actual book and see what philosophy is about instead of musing on an unfinished saturday anime VN with mecha references.
>>4965054
>xeno had a much better deeper game mechanics
Xenogear's mechanics are not just laughable, they make no sense.
>Here's a party of characters you can not customize
>Oh but there's robutts, but you can't wait to see all those different builds you can use on them
>Lolno just upgrade in the next town boi
>No meaning in using normal attacks since deathblows are a thing
>No meaning in using any non deathblow pattern since you waste time you can spend learning DB faster
>To make this even worse you can chain deathblows meaning you'll spend three turns chargin up your DP with one triangle attack and then just select a chain of your strongest available DB, invalidating the active button combat even more
>There's not much to the AB combat either since unlike VP there's no juggling, hitboxes or enemy counters
>Gear fighting is the exact same but slower
>Fuel management is nonexistent
>Citan is broken on all levels
>Rico is completely fucking useless
>Elly is not even worth investing since she's barely playable to begin with
>Enemies are a joke
>No positioning elements
>Not even any proper attack distiction outside of elemental magic 101

You play Xenogears for the story, the gameplay is horrible and almost non existent in the first place, the Gear Fighter arcade cabin in Nortune has unironically deeper gameplay than the main game and it still plays like shit.
I don't even like FFT but it has factually deeper mechanics.

[Anonymous No.4965085]

>inb4 it's not a jrpg
it is. it literally says so in the opening credits

[Anonymous No.4965086]

>>4963772
Terranigma

[Anonymous No.4965091]

>>4965071
don't get me wrong. i liked both those games. FFT was fun and if i have a ninja with math skill you can be assured i played a lot. i even did the lv down calculator lv up mime thing that was a waste of time and completely unnecessary. I used my ninja to turn all my enemies into berserk frogs.

aside from the math skill it's not deep if you consider selecting height, number and math deep

[Anonymous No.4965106]

>>4965071
>you can chain deathblows
This isn't even worth doing except against Ramsus in the castle or if you want to beat Wiseman in the gear hangar.

>Rico is completely fucking useless
Eh, there are a couple windows where his gear is in the top 3.

>Elly is not even worth investing since she's barely playable to begin with
You can get by without her, but this isn't true. Ether is dominant in the first disc with the right setup. Also, they force you to use Elly for things like the 2nd gate and the entirety of Solaris, so "barely playable" is just not correct, even if they take her away from you midway through disc 2.

[Anonymous No.4965107]

>>4965054
>xeno had a much better deeper game mechanics
>than FFT
nigga please

[Anonymous No.4965109]

>>4965091
There's more to the game than calculators FFS. Typical player won't unlock calc until the end of the game.

[Anonymous No.4965121]

>>4963903
>ultimately nihilistic.
How so?

Honestly curious. I've never played the game.

[Anonymous No.4965201]

>>4964343
from 22 posters, only two aren't brainlets. God sometimes I forgot how people are dumb and sheep. Just finished the first valk profile and now I am going to emulate the ds one. Why my choices are terrible for you? except for smrpg all of them have a deep intrinsict meaning.

[Anonymous No.4965219]

>>4963772
Linda^3

[Anonymous No.4965231]

>>4965091
>aside from the math skill it's not deep
It's undeniably deeper than a RPG with customization and battle design equivalent to that of a NES game.

You cannot refute this in any way, characters are all customizable and some even have their own toolkits, you can use monsters, you can mix up classes however you want, there are positioning elements, more complex calculations for turns/spellcasting, one of a kind commands like Mimic and even different conditions of activation for spells by taking your own Calculator example, hell Xenogears lacks something as basic as counterattacks.

FFT is piss easy and there's a fuckload of problems related to its game design, but to say that it isn't deeper or more complex than Xenogears is either a bad joke or complete idiocy, Xenogears' gameplay literally makes no sense for most of its systems, it has even less RPG elements than your average FF and that is dangerously worrying.

[Anonymous No.4965253]

>>4965201
>intrinsict meaning
A what now?

[Anonymous No.4965256]

>>4963772
Final Fantasy VII

[Anonymous No.4965257]

>>4965054
OP was very obviously talking about plot, not game mechanics. That's why I was mocking you.

[Anonymous No.4965271]

>>4965201
Maybe I'm being a bit harsh. I'm sure there are deep themes to be found in Earthbound and FFVIII, but the games are so unbearable to me that I have no desire to look for them. Earthbound is exactly the kind of "quirky but deep" that turns me off and FFVIII's setting, characters, pacing and combat system do the same. Chrono Trigger and Cross are good games.

[Anonymous No.4965272]

>>4965257
?? Who is deleting then reposting slight variations on my posts?

[Anonymous No.4965327]

>>4965071
>>Here's a party of characters you can not customize
stopped reading shit taste

[Anonymous No.4965374]

>>4964042
Chrono Trigger is better than Xenogears but not quite "deep"
>FF8
Come the fuck on

[Anonymous No.4965437]

>>4964097
Xenogears is full of text and faux philosophical nonsense but really says nothing at all. It's not deep, it just appears to be. When you dig deeper there's really no meaning and no true depth to any of the themes in the game. It's a pretentious romp with nothing meaningful to say. Mario RPG explores themes in a much more straight forward and clear way, with actual morals and lessons throughout, as does VP.

[Anonymous No.4965479]

>>4965327
He's right - RPGs with pre-generated, non-customizable characters are cancer

[Anonymous No.4965490]

>>4965479
Ohh cancer! Everyone's favorite buzzword. Of course every game should be made specifically with your tastes in mind! Who cares that the genre of jrpgs evolved how it has due to how many fabs of that kind of gane there are? It's not what you personally enjoy, so it must therefore be cancer! Individual tastes and preferences are so 20th century. Fuck that!

[Anonymous No.4965495]

>>4965490
Get off 4chan you fucking crybaby

[Anonymous No.4965505]

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Xenogears. The script is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of the bible most references will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also Fei's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation - his personal philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of the storytelling, to realize that they're not just there- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Xenogears truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the importance in Grahf's existencial catchphrase "Doth thou desire the power?" which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as SquareSoft's genius unfolds itself on their screens. What fools... how I pity them. And yes by the way, I DO have a Chu-Chu tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.

[Anonymous No.4965510]

>>4965495
Lol nah I'm enjoying making fun of entitled idiots who get all pissy when not everything has been tailored just for them and cry about how it's cancer.

[babbage's gramps !RATGzMALLY No.4965514]

>>4965121
While it does touch on higher concepts, the distinction between the "wave existence" and "god" isn't very well defined and at the bottom of it, it's one of those deals where the whole world and all of human existence is just to serve as a power source for some ancient space ship or weapon or something and on a gameplay note it takes fucking FOREVER to get around to the point so don't play it unless you really love dialog and anime cut scenes since the second disc is basically about 5 hours of just that - which is my actual criticism of the game, not that the plot is "bad" per se but the exposition is super duper duper long winded and feels like sitting through an extremely long church service.

[Anonymous No.4965518]

>>4965510
You're weak, much like a storyfag

[Anonymous No.4965535]

>>4965518
I'm weak for calling you out on being an entitled baby? lol

p.s. I don't even like story based games. I'm just also okay with not every game being made for my tastes.

[Anonymous No.4965540]

>>4965514
I pretty much agree with this. It's decent story, just told really badly and the middle half is almost pure filler.

Breath of Fire 4 also slumps in the middle but has both more interesting things to say and does it better in the end.

[Anonymous No.4965548]

>>4965490
I don't think you really grasp the concept of a buzzword if you think "cancer" is one. It's not supposed to be a specific descriptor, it's a non-specific denigration, like calling something "shit" or "trash".

[Anonymous No.4965557]

>>4965535
>I'm just also okay with not every game being made for my tastes.
You and everyone else on the planet, including the people in this thread.

I mean, you do realize that one can call something a pile of shit and still be okay with it existing, right?

[Anonymous No.4965575]

Don't think I've ever really considered any JRPG to be deeply philosophical. Many of the ones I've played featured deeply emotional elements, but that's about it.

Never felt like the games were in need of philosophical depth anyway.

[Anonymous No.4965591]

>>4965557
Ohh sure, you were whining about cancer because you're totally cool with it. You just like bitching up a storm.

[Anonymous No.4965597]

>>4963772
persona 4 is deep if you understand the references

[Anonymous No.4965615]

>>4965591
God tier: Dragon Quest III
>you create the characters
>they develop however you want
>tons of customization

High tier: Final Fantasy V
>pre-generated characters
>they develop how you want
>tons of customization

Low tier: Final Fantasy VI
>pre-generated characters
>you can influence how they develop somewhat, but they're always what they are plus or minus stat bonuses/spells
>some customization

Shit tier: Final Fantasy IV
>pre-generated characters
>characters gain abilities automatically through gameplay, abilities gained are pre-determined
>no customization

[Anonymous No.4965624]

>>4965437
>It's not deep, it just appears to be.
It is deep, although maybe not as deep as it tries to be or gets credit for. The characters are subtle and have real growth and real experiences and it's not all just "2deep4u" nonsense that is the easy and lazy critique always put forth by people like you.

[Anonymous No.4965626]

>>4965615
This guy gets it. Also I don't understand how plebs can enjoy FFVI more than FFVII since the latter has much more customization through the materia system.

[Anonymous No.4965632]

>>4965615
>Shit tier: Final Fantasy IV
>no customization
You just don't really know the game very well. Customization in FF4 is done with equipment.

[Anonymous No.4965636]

>>4965615
Yeah and if you are mature enough to understand that your tiers are subjective and relate to your personal preferences, it's all good. It's when you start acting, like is common around here that your taste represents objective truth you reveal yourself to be an entitled twep who deserves riddicule. So keep it up, cause this is always fun :)

[Anonymous No.4965637]

>>4965624
Real growth and experiences does not equal "deep". These are basic literary motifs that are found in almost all RPGs. Some handled better than others granted

[Anonymous No.4965643]

>>4965624
when I play video games I want them to be as philosophical as actual philosophical texts

[Anonymous No.4965646]

>>4965626
That guy only cares about the party customization and planning meta-game and not the actual battles themselves.

[Anonymous No.4965648]

>>4965490
>>4965510
>>4965535
>>4965591
>>4965636

cringed and bluepilled

[Anonymous No.4965650]

>>4965643
hah you legit made me laugh

[Anonymous No.4965659]

>>4965632
Every JRPG has "equipment-based customization" and it's rarely anything to write home about. FFIV is no exception

>oh man I got the fire sword
>now it does more damage to ice/undead enemies

Meanwhile FFV has that fire sword plus a job class that can empower their attacks with fire any time they want

[Anonymous No.4965669]

>>4965626
FFVII's 3-character parties hurt the fun of combat a lot for me. I like having the 4th man in my party setup

[Anonymous No.4965675]

>>4965648
>pills

[Anonymous No.4965915]

>>4965659
>Every JRPG has "equipment-based customization"
Not as much as you might think, especially with later games that allow other kinds of customization instead. And I'm not talking about fire sword vs ice sword. I'm talking about the option to equip completely different types of weapons and armor that completely changes the way a character is played.

Take Rosa in FF4. She is a white mage and archer. If you give her a bow and load her up with +str equipment, she can put out capable damage especially if you exploit weak points as arrows cover a full range of enemy weaknesses. However, if you do this she'll be a much less efficient healer. Meanwhile, if you give her a +will(spirit) gear, her physical damage will be pitiful but her magic will be much more effective.

For a simple example of how far it can swing even with mid-level gear, here's a Level 20 Rosa:

>Priest Configuration
>Silver Staff
>Wizard Hat
>Wizard Robes
Attack: 3x21 (60% hit rate)
Str:16
Will:40
Cure1 Strength: ~230
Cure2 Strength: ~750

>Archer Configuration
>Fire Arrows
>Archer Bow
>Headband
>Karate Ki
Attack: 4x42 (100% hit rate with "Aim" skill)
Str:29
Will: 27
Cure1 strength: ~160
Cure2 strength: ~400

At the high end there are more impactful options such as switching between The White Robes and Heroine(Minerva) armor which gives you a 30 point swing on Will and 15 point swing in strength.

[Anonymous No.4965953]

>>4965915
>hur dur stat modifiers are deep just like fleshed out job system with stat modifiers AND equipment modifiers

stop. everyone knew what you were talking about. it's shallow and your typical JRPG does the same shit.

[Anonymous No.4965959]

>>4965953
Agreed. IV was a huge step back from III.

[Anonymous No.4965964]

>>4964343
>any story where you sacrifice your own friends' souls so you can get revenge against the gods is fucking awesome
you only do this once and you're kind of tricked into it though

there's never any other time this happens outside of that first plot battle

[Anonymous No.4965972]

>>4965479
customization in rpg only serves to occupy headroom which functionally only serves a purpose by distracting the player from things they should actually be worrying about in real life, to wit, the only type of person who gets addicted to progress systems and arbitrary mechanical systems is a coward who compulsively avoids their problems in real life, while someone who is relaxed or satisfied (gets laid) irl is totally capable of freely enjoying a game for it's aesthetic and narrative

[Anonymous No.4965976]

>>4965548
a buzzword is a sort of identification key for puppets used by high level manipulators in the open world

[Anonymous No.4965992]

>>4965915
Final Fantasy V has the same customization as this, plus much more. Dragon Quest III has weapons that attack groups of enemies, changing the game on what an attack command even is, on top of the already insane (for an SNES JRPG) level of character customization

FFIV's mechanics suck dude

[Anonymous No.4966009]

>>4965953
If you don't want me to treat you like a moron then don't post like one.

And no. FFV is not exactly like that. In FFV, weapons are heavily restricted by class unless you specifically equip a support ability to mix it up. It's not like FFIV where many characters can equip a variety of weapons by default.

More importantly, your ridiculous fixation on customization misses the most important part of the game which is the actual battles themselves. In FFIV, sometimes you have to just figure out how to win with the tools you have, rather than just reconfiguring your party to maxmimally exploit whatever weakness you need to exploit. FFV has to assume every boss might be going up against 4 black mages, for example. In FFIV you have scenarios like the Magus Sisters in the Tower of Zot which you have to beat using 3 melee characters and old man Tellah with his 90 MP and shit stats. And, the fat one you need to kill first is walled and in the back row.

Don't get me wrong, I love FFV and love the class system but there's more to these games than party customization and more to customization than the glaringly obvious shit that any retard like yourself could point out.

[Anonymous No.4966017]

>>4965992
>Final Fantasy V has the same customization as this, plus much more.
No, it's different. Also I'm not being critical of FFV that game is great. You are the ignorant plebs shitting a game you don't understand.

[Anonymous No.4966029]

>>4966009
>>4966017

If you loved FFV you wouldn't be this wrong about it lol

[Anonymous No.4966054]

>>4966009
>And no. FFV is not exactly like that. In FFV, weapons are heavily restricted by class unless you specifically equip a support ability to mix it up. It's not like FFIV where many characters can equip a variety of weapons by default.
Thieves can equip daggers or chakram weapons which allow them to attack from the back row. Red Mages can wear armor or robes, statting themselves out for a physical or magical focus - kind of like Rosa, huh?

>In FFIV you have scenarios like the Magus Sisters in the Tower of Zot which you have to beat using 3 melee characters and old man Tellah with his 90 MP and shit stats.
If you could choose your builds and party layout beforehand the battle would be more enjoyable. I fought that battle with a different party in Final Fantasy Record Keeper and it was great.

[Anonymous No.4966063]

>>4966029
FFV equipment doesn't have the huge stat swings that FFIV does. The magnitude of effect of equipment customization is smaller in FFV and you have to do with rest with classes and abilities (and you also have to use abilities to be able to cross-equip a lot of stuff in the first place).

FFV does have more classes and more abilities and the way you can mix and match them is great. But to suggest that FFIV has literally no customization is flat-out wrong. Fixation on party customization as the only thing that matters is also very stupid which I have also pointed out twice.

[Anonymous No.4966075]

>>4966054
>If you could choose your builds and party layout beforehand the battle would be more enjoyable. I
No, it wouldn't. It would let you do something like pick a bunch of summoners and white mages and just spam wall-ignoring magic and heals for the entire battle. Instead you have to decide whether to take out mindy or just try to focus on Cindy, and whether you want to try bouncing spells of a wall in the hopes that they'll land on the right target. It's a more dynamic and interesting battle if you fight it the way designers intended.

[Anonymous No.4966092]

>>4966054
>I fought that battle with a different party in Final Fantasy Record Keeper and it was great.
Well yeah, customization does enhance replayability. Being able to play through the game multiple times and trying something different each time is fun.

The FF4FE randomizer is fantastic for this, it has a great flag (C3) that forces you to beat the game with 5 randomly selected characters. This can force you to figure out how to make shit characters like Edward and Tellah useful instead of just optimizing a party with your favorites.

[Anonymous No.4966094]

>>4966063
It has very little customization when compared to IV, that was the whole point. You gave an example of how 1 character can do heals or bow successfully in FFIV whereas 1 character in FFV can do heals, nukes, support, physical/ranged damage, hybrid, etc.

[Anonymous No.4966102]

>>4963772
I know its not /vr/ but how such a shitty game got a so damn good sequel? It's like when hollywood try to milk a franchise till its dry, but they got a dry and meaningless game and gave fruit to the forbidden fruit of eden

[Anonymous No.4966110]

>>4966102
Xenosaga is like a mediocre anime space opera though

[Anonymous No.4966117]

>>4965959
In terms of gameplay systems, yes. But it was a step forward in storytelling which is what the Japanese audience ( and a lot of westerners) ended up really liking.

Which is why the series has shifted more and more in that direction over the years.

[Anonymous No.4966130]

>>4966117
Fuck storytelling. Our current predicament has developers putting more effort into story than gameplay systems and square and JRPGs in general are partially to blame.

[Anonymous No.4966135]

>>4966130
Progress systems and storyfaggotry... were a mistake.

[Anonymous No.4966142]

>>4966135
Progress systems are fine in RPGs as long as the gameplay stays fun. Turn-based RPG gameplay is about strategy, challenge and customization. The ability to level up and learn new abilities is fine - and it makes sense in a lot of RPGs - as long as the battles remain stimulating throughout the game. A lot of RPGs choose narrative experience over strategy/customization/challenge. Others are just getting away from turn-based combat altogether.

[Anonymous No.4966147]

>>4966063
>The magnitude of effect of equipment customization is smaller in FFV
Give me a break with that bullshit already, who are you trying to fool?
Tell me where's the meaningful stat customization for Cecil, Kain, Yang, Edge or Palom/Porom?
Even taking the GBA remake in consideration which actually lets you keep those party members for a change, there's no meaningful customization through equipment to be had, not just because most of the equipment is character locked, but also because 90% of the cast is good at ONE thing and one thing alone.
Kain will only ever be good for attacking and jumping, he can't do anything else by design, same with Yang, same with Palom and Porom, same with Rydia and at the end of the day is still the same for "multiclass" characters like Cecil or Edge and even Rosa.
Why would you ever bother using bows on Rosa when even in the best case scenario she'll do subpar damage with them? Why would you ever take your main and only actual healer off healer duty to play fucking darts? For what unscrutable reason would you ever use Edge as a mage when his offensive magic toolset can't kill anything by the time you get him? Why in God's name would you make Rydia a physical attacker?

This is without considering how utterly braindead the game is, and I find it particularly ridiculous how you use the Magus Sisters as an example of meaningful design, especially for a game that is supposed to be a RPG.
You can't create characters, you don't have any agency on the plot or characters, you can't choose classes nor have any actual meaningful character customization, the game tears off characters from your party and forces you to play with a preset party, WHERE is the customization? Where are the ROLE PLAYING elements when I can't decide a damn thing?
At the very least something like FFV does give you some leeway in how you build your characters and how you fight, even Xenogears at least still let you choose your party members, FFIV didn't do any of this.

[Anonymous No.4966150]

>>4966054
>Red Mages can wear armor or robes, statting themselves out for a physical or magical focus - kind of like Rosa, huh?
Robes don't have the big stat boosts in FFV that they do in FFIV. At best they might give you a +3 boost to magic stats. Meanwhile In FFIV the high-end equipment has modifications of like +15 and -15. When building a Red Mage in FFV, choice of secondary abilities has a far greater effect on stat modifications than equipment choices. That's where you get the dramatic stat bonuses and penalties.

And again, I'm not the retard trying to claim either of these games have no customization. I'm saying that FFIV emphasizes equipment choices for customization. It's less flexible and there are far fewer possible combinations, but part of that is that the game is just older and smaller and has fewer abilities overall (which would be valid and informed critique of the game, not retard ignorant shitting like we actually saw).

[Anonymous No.4966164]

>>4966150
III had superior gameplay systems to IV and it's older. Older is not an excuse. FFIV is just a poorly designed game and a step back from the previous games in every way that matters.

[Anonymous No.4966191]

>>4966130
It's not a predicament though, it's the direction the fans led the genre in. It's only a problem if you assume every game should be made for your tastes.

[Anonymous No.4966198]

>>4966164
>FFIV is just a poorly designed game and a step back from the previous games in every way that matters.

I don't like FFIV, but it's emphasis on story with streamlined gameplay is exactly why it was and is so popular.

[Anonymous No.4966206]

>>4966147
>Tell me where's the meaningful stat customization for Cecil, Kain, Yang, Edge or Palom/Porom?
For Cecil it depends on which part of the game you're talking about. You can put robes and a staff on Cecil and make him a healer during that middle phase when you're stuck with only Tellah as a healer. (The game all but forces you to do this for Cave Magnes). By the end of the game Cecil gets a bunch of ultimate equipment so he's basically just a big-damage melee tank.

>Kain
Kain's customization involves deciding whether to focus on attack or defense. He can wear all the +str light armor like the Bandanna, Black Belt, and Strength Ring. Or he can wear heavy armor. He can also deal damage from the back row, but this nerfs his regular attack which is preferable sometimes (especially w/ berserk). Several of Kain's spears also have infinite casts of some magic spells, which have some situational use.

>Edge
Edge doesn't have much customization although you can make some defense/attack tradeoffs and use boomerangs and thrown weapons from the back row if you wish. You can also equip daggers or claws if you want to exploit weaknesses. But basically Edge just a highly versatile character in the first place.

>Palom&Porom
You can give Karate/Headband/Dancing Knife to Palom for the Baron Waterway. But you don't have Palom&Porom very long anyway

>Yang
Yeah he's just a monk.

>Why in God's name would you make Rydia a physical attacker?
Physical attacks have no cast time and no mana cost. Her whips hit from the back row, randomly paralyze, and can exploit lightning and fire weaknesses (and can 4x hit against dragon enemies if you get the Dragon Whip). Some enemies (including late-game bosses like Zeromus and Ogopogo) counter magic but not physical attacks.

[Anonymous No.4966209]

>>4966164
>superior gameplay systems
>gameplay systems
you mean job system?

[Anonymous No.4966215]

>>4966209
Yeah, I will say ATB beats the fuck out of the old NES FF round-based combat

[Anonymous No.4966229]

>>4966215
Why? ATB is the exact same thing, except slower-paced because you have to wait for bars to fill up before you can input commands. It's a terrible system.

[Anonymous No.4966235]

>>4966198
>appealing to dumbasses and normies is why it was so successful!

[Anonymous No.4966239]

>>4966229
>slower
You can change the speed at which the bars fill up. On high (and if you set the game to active, not wait - wait is for pussies) there are constantly commands needing to be issued while things constantly happen. You need to select the right command as quickly as possible to prevent being overwhelmed. It's a fun spin on the turn-based combat system.

[Anonymous No.4966249]

>>4966147
>For what unscrutable reason would you ever use Edge as a mage when his offensive magic toolset can't kill anything by the time you get him?
>can't kill anything
Just because you don't know shit about this game doesn't mean it's bad. Simple example: The trapped chests in the Sylph Cave with 6 Ghost enemies. Edge can potentially kill them all in one shot with Blitz and if not, he can damage them enough for Rydia to finish them off with a Mist Dragon or Virus. Flame works well on the bats and batgirls in the Sealed Cave and Flood is effective against the Red Dragon pairs in the Lunar Subterrane.

>I find it particularly ridiculous how you use the Magus Sisters as an example of meaningful design
And yet are unable to substantially criticize the fight on its own merits. All you can do is deflect to the only thing you apparently understand or care about, which is party customization and "role play."

[Anonymous No.4966254]

>>4964830
Just finished playing through this and I have to say the ending got me. Even though the story isn't as deep, fleshed out, or complicated as many RPGs, it's miles ahead of most of its 16-bit counterparts in quality.

[Anonymous No.4966265]

>>4966239
>>4966229
The NES FF system is not just turn-based. It's round-based. You select an action for each party member at the beginning of each round, then the entire round plays out before moving to the next round.

In addition to the real-time element, the ATB system also includes a speed rating (tied to agility in FF4) which influences the specific turn order for every character in the battle. Final Fantasy Tactics was purely turn-based, but uses the same idea. The result is far more elegant for RPG-style combat with individual characters. (Round-based still works for military tactics games where you're playing the role of commander issuing orders to units on the field and that sort of thing)

[Anonymous No.4966286]

>>4966265
FFT's CT system is the best, yeah. I also like the way FFX did it, along with Atelier Iris and Mana Khemia (although those games' stories were hard to endure)

[Anonymous No.4966313]

>>4966235
>people who don't like the same things I do are dumbasses

Quality thinking there pally

[Anonymous No.4966351]

>>4965071
Agreed but
>Elly is not even worth investing since she's barely playable to begin with
Elly has her utterly broken aerod bullshit that singlehandedly saved my ass vs the elements

[Anonymous No.4966473]

>>4966351
People use deathblows exclusively for some reason, but Elly's aerods do more damage than any combo and dominate the entire first disc whenever you're lucky enough to have her, and on foot her ether is the most efficient means of clearing the majority of encounters.

I totally sold the wedding dress to buy that ether accessory though, that probably makes a difference

[Anonymous No.4966525]

TEST TEST

[Anonymous No.4966547]

>>4963772
>durrr lets name a bunch of stuff after religious stuff
>WOW SO DEEP AND PHILOSOPHICAL

[Anonymous No.4966717]

>>4966547
0/10

[Anonymous No.4967025]

>>4964806

Takahashi's and his wife Sora's original treatment idea for FF VII before Square shot it down for being "too dark".

[Anonymous No.4967392]

>>4964667
What the fuck do questions like this mean? It's a good game, play it if you want

[Anonymous No.4968912]

>>4965626
Both are crap in terms of character customization. But FF7 is worse because that's when the series went full weebshit anime.

[Anonymous No.4969003]

Super Mario RPG

[Anonymous No.4969010]

Unironically Final Fantasy VII.

Also Chrono Cross. Yasumi Matsuno titles. Can skew Legend of Mana in that light if you take to its entire aesthetic and philosophy.

[Anonymous No.4970208]

>>4963772
the game

[Anonymous No.4970453]

>>4965624
Yeah man, it's so uncommon to see character growth in an rpg

[Anonymous No.4970458]

>>4966547
This is correct

[Anonymous No.4973019]

>>4964543
I second this!

[Anonymous No.4973094]

>>4970208
you seriously bumped this shitty thread to post THIS? what the fuck is wrong with you.

[Anonymous No.4973103]

>>4970453
Well no shit. But Xenogears does it really well. It's rare to find a good balance of vivid, distinctive, and memorable characters that are also subtle and believable and Xenogears mostly nails it.

[Anonymous No.4973150]

>>4973103
>>4970453
For example, to compare with a RPG highly-acclaimed from the same era: Final Fantasy IX.

FF9 characters all have growth. They're also all vivid and memorable. But they're also all exaggerated, one-dimensional parodies of their own archetypes that are always obnoxiously reminding you of their primary character flaw no matter what the situation. Steiner can barely have one conversation where he doesn't have some kind of meltdown about duty. Meanwhile Bart in Xenogears is always optimistic, assertive, and impulsive and there are plot consequences to those traits but in a serious conversation he just acts like a normal human being. Xenogears characters (including the huge cast of villains) all have distinct personalities and motivations and deal with a variety of issues from mundane to existential.

FF6 is not as bad but still a lot of one-note characters. You have Edgar "the ladies man" and Sabin "the meathead" Figaro. There's Locke with his guilt issues, Cyan with archaic speech and mourning his family, and Shadow the edgelord. And those are the good characters.

[Anonymous No.4973282]

>>4964042
based retard

[Anonymous No.4974948]

>>4965219
My dude. Linda Cubed is the shit.

>tfw no one else noticed

Eh. It is Japanese-only so no surprise.

[Anonymous No.4975681]

>>4963863
you might not born yet when ultima 4 was released.

[Anonymous No.4977550]

>>4975681
>you might not born yet

What did he mean by this?

[Anonymous No.4979720]

>>4973150
>(including the huge cast of villains)

[citation needed]

[Anonymous No.4980325]

>>4979720
Here is a list with only the major antagonists:

Deus
Gazel Ministry
Grahf
Ramsus
Krelian
Miang

And the Gazel Ministry is actually several characters who argue with each other often. There are lots of minor antagonists as well.

[Anonymous No.4981160]

>>4964343
>get revenge against the gods
Except for the part where if you sacrifice your friends, either you or your dad goes to hell forever and regardless, you don't get your revenge since Lenneth is basically immortal.

Man, I want VP:Hrist. Shame we'll never get it.

[Anonymous No.4981168]

>>4977550
nigga the post he responded to was asking is it any great