[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/vr/ - Retro Games

View post   
File: 32 KB, 300x410, audigy-vs-live51.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4899107 No.4899107 [Reply] [Original]

Purely speaking DOS, which one is better? Live! or Audigy/2?
Of course on a machine with no ISA options at all.

>> No.4899351

>>4899107
Live 'cause it actually has DOS drivers while the Audigy never had those so you actually can't use it in a pure DOS environement. But the Live isn't a good soundcard for DOS games either, a good load of games don't work well with that card.

>> No.4899363

>>4899351
>Audigy never had those so you actually can't use it in a pure DOS environment*.
It does though, that's why I ask.
I guess Live! is more appropriate for the time period and got better support for DOS.

As long as games like Duke3D, Doom, Carmageddon, Decent work I'll be okay. I have a 486 with proper sound cards but some games are sluggish on it and the PCI only board I'm deciding what PCI sound card to use also has two Voodoo 2's in it.
Best bet is that I find some board with enough PCI slots and one proper ISA slot sometime and this PCI for DOS card is just temporary.

>> No.4899373

>>4899363
>It does though, that's why I ask.
Not the Audigy 2.

>> No.4899375

>>4899373
Uses same DOS drivers as the Audigy 1.
The driver just has the changed hardware ID to register the card.

>> No.4899383

>>4899375
Oh well, didn't knew about that. My bad.
But anyway, I'd still advise using the Soundblaster Live for DOS stuff, it should work for Doom and Duke 3D.

>> No.4899403

>>4899383
Thanks. I watched Phils videos about the topic, he does recommend the Live! for Win98/DOS but sadly he never goes into DOS detail with Audigy, but does say it's superior for Win98 use over Live!. So I wasn't really sure.

>> No.4899682

They're both the same for DOS, Live! and Autigy's emulation is the same stack, and it sucks.
Seriously OP, don't use those unless you really have no other option. The OPL3 emulation sounds awful and the compatibility is sketchy at best (about 3/4 of software work, the last 1/4 you may have FM or synth or nether work).

If you can't use an ISA card and need PCI, use a Yamaha PCI YMF7x4 card. They're dirt cheap and have way WAY better dos compatibility along with featuring a real OPL3 chip on board.

>> No.4899736

>>4899682
>If you can't use an ISA card and need PCI, use a Yamaha PCI YMF7x4 card. They're dirt cheap and have way WAY better dos compatibility along with featuring a real OPL3 chip on board.

https://www.philscomputerlab.com/sound-blaster-live.html
>DOS compatibility surprised me and a lot of games that didn't work on C-Media or YAMAHA based PCI Sound Cards, well they worked just fine on the Sound Blaster Live.

>> No.4899748

>>4899736
While I like that site a lot, I'd disagree with Phil on this. I say this as someone who owns half a dozen YMF7x4 cards along with a few Live! and Audigy (including a 2zx).

See
https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=48133
Vogons also has customized versions of the Yamaha TSR that work on newer chipsets as well, check for those in there.

>> No.4899772

>>4899748
I guess to follow up on this, you can run both cards too as an option (But if you do don't run both TSRs in DOS for obvious reasons) Would give you the benefit of having a real OPL3 card for DOS games then EAX audio for Windows. Did this once for kicks and worked well.
Dosn't really hurt since cheap YMF7x4 cards can be had for like $8 on ebay.

>> No.4899782

>>4899772
For this you might as well go with a motherboard that has actual ISA slots.
Yamaha OPL3-SA + AWE64 for DOS with Audigy 2 and Aureal Vortex 2 for Windows.

>> No.4899784

>>4899682
>They're both the same for DOS, Live! and Autigy's emulation is the same stack, and it sucks.
You sure on this? I've heard that Audigy 2 and Live! sound different under DOS.

>> No.4899798

>>4899782
I do this with my current setup on a P3 with 2 ISA slots. Its been giving me great results.
YMF714 ISA card + SB Live! Value
Since it's 2 sound cards I output the SB Live! to the Yamaha card's Line In, then output both of their audio though the Yamaha so it's all seemless. Lets me even chose the Yamaha's synth for MIDI in Windows. The only hassle with this is you do have to play around with sound levels a little bit when you first set it up since you're outputing audio from 2 cards at the same time, but once you get that dialed in it's the best of both words.
Don't do this with a SB16 though, those introduce WAY more noise on the line, their IC isolation even on the "good" cards are just not that great (best ones are the early non-pnp ones).

>> No.4899805

>>4899107
Do you know what you're doing with which version of Live! card you're going to use?

I can't tell by your 32kb photo which Live! card you have other than I know it's not the piece of shit 0200 one.

>> No.4899807

>>4899682
The OPL3 Emulation is not awful.

>> No.4899820

>>4899805
>SB0200
Yeah, those dell and HP OEM cards suck. Have to look out for CT4780, its also another OEM Live! card.

>> No.4899821
File: 24 KB, 455x536, 12687911_1687239578197190_18621344674547960_n.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4899821

>>4899107
I've got the original Live! with the Daughter Card. A Live value. A Live 5.1 0060 and a piece of shit 0200 that I should probably throw a way. I also have a 5 1/4 Live Drive that needs some attention. Then I have a couple 2 ZS and a Dell Audigy 2 that I got for cheap that might turn out to be useful.

On the way I have a Diamond MX200 Gold with out the 4Mb wavetable :( . I'm thinking of trying to find a new fangled programmable Wave Table that I could load that Sound Font onto.

Not really sure why I'm stock piling all these cards, but I want to hear what they have to offer.

*I'm aware the MX200 has ZERO pure dos compatibility.

>> No.4899825

>>4899820
Yes, but I hear both the 4780 and the 4870 may be able to be made to work. Although they wouldn't be my first choice.

>> No.4899837

>>4899820
This stuff has been my Jam lately. I've got a Gateway Athlon Slot One system I'm upgrading and I'm trying to figure out what hardware I'm going to be putting into it.

I'm thinking for the Gateway. Upgrade it's CPU to an Athlon 770. Since I was able to get one for $20 instead of $60 for the higher clocked ones. A Gainward Geforce 3 Ti200 moded to a Ti500. A pair of creative 8mb Voodoo 2's and the Diamond Monster Sound Gold that should arrive today.

Are their any Glide Dos games I should really be concerned with that won't run in 98se?

>> No.4899847

>>4899837
>A pair of creative 8mb Voodoo 2's
I've got a pair of these. Mine are mix and matched cards so the official drivers wont SLI with them, but you can use the "Fast VooDoo" custom drivers, they allow for mismatched cards and have a ton of additional optimizations as well. SLI with VooDoo 2s work so much better then SLI today on modern cards, its kind of amazing.
https://3dfxarchive.com/voodoo2.htm
>Are their any Glide Dos games I should really be concerned with that won't run in 98se?
Not too many that I can think of. Games like Mechwarrior 2 Titanium will run smoother in DOS with 3d acceleration then windows. Thats usually the case, but can't think of any real hang ups otherwise.

>> No.4899850

>>4899847
>Mine are mix and matched cards so the official drivers wont SLI with them
Seriously? I used to have mixed and matched cards (but same clock speed and memory size) and SLI worked with official drivers.

>> No.4899860

>>4899850
Not just memory size but your cards probably matched memory timings. Lucky those worked on stock drivers.

>Speaking of which mine like I said are 8MB cards. Is there a way that if I could source those same memory chips. Could I add them to the card and make it a 12MB? All the spots are there. Just vacant.

>> No.4899903

>>4899748
>While I like that site a lot, I'd disagree with Phil on this. I say this as someone who owns half a dozen YMF7x4 cards along with a few Live! and Audigy (including a 2zx).
Tell him that

>> No.4900563
File: 2.67 MB, 2304x1728, Tax_return_splurge.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4900563

I have gotten really close now to putting all the pieces together for my J-Win98SE build. I am still a bit hung up on a few pieces. Such as trying to figure out if using Seatools to limit a 1TB Firecuda to the acceptable 128GB HDD Win98 accepts, will that apply if I use 2 HDDs that they both have to be limited to 128GBs? Or would a 2nd HDD be unacceptable? I had considered maybe the possibility to partition 128GB to J-Win98SE, and maybe set up the remained for the 1TB to XP, but there's no guarantee that won't cause issues. As for sound, I just dug out an old AudgyZS2, but it seems like I should be hunting down a Live! card instead? As you can see, I only have PCI as well, and no ISA slots.


>>4899375
Where can I get this changed driver to get an Audigy2 to register?


>>4899837
I am jealous of the Voodoo2s. Those have gotten prohibitively expensive now, so I opted to get a GeForce 6800 for my build, and settle on missing out on Glide.

>> No.4900718

Anything above AWE64 Gold is trash for DOS. And even then the accurate FM support stopped being a thing after the SB16. Take your fuckin poison OP

>> No.4900726

>>4900563
a modern computer running wine

>> No.4900990

>>4900563
>I am jealous of the Voodoo2s. Those have gotten prohibitively expensive now, so I opted to get a GeForce 6800 for my build, and settle on missing out on Glide.
With a socket 370 P3 and a fucking beefy ass 6800 you can just emulate glide with no issues.

>> No.4901051

>>4899107
gravis ultrasound noobcake

>> No.4901580

>>4900563
>I am jealous of the Voodoo2s. Those have gotten prohibitively expensive now, so I opted to get a GeForce 6800 for my build, and settle on missing out on Glide.
I have two Voodoo 2's and a 7800 GS (AGP) in my shitty build.

>Where can I get this changed driver to get an Audigy2 to register?
http://www.vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fileid=1383&menustate=0
Literary third result when googling "audigy 2 dos driver".

>> No.4901797

>>4900563
If you're planning building this for OC Win98 Gaming. You'll fail at that using the 6800. Due to the drivers required for that card to work. Those drivers are absoulet shit in 98. Not that you won't be able to play games. If that's all you're after you'll be fine, but if you aiming for 200+ FPS in Quake 2 or something. You can forget it with that card.

>From what I understand. The 128MB Geforce 3 TI500 is the ultimate Geforce for Win98. Due to Driver compatibility. A Geforce TI4600 is better for late Win98 only. For older titles the G3 will beat it.

Like someone else said their is NGlide. I haven't tried it yet. I propably will at some point if most of my cards work. I got some really big beefy rare shit that I'll probably sell if they work.

>> No.4901803

>>4901051
Now there's a card that not many can afford. I'd love to have one, but not at those prices.

>> No.4901825

>>4901797
>If you're planning building this for OC Win98 Gaming. You'll fail at that using the 6800. Due to the drivers required for that card to work. Those drivers are absoulet shit in 98. Not that you won't be able to play games. If that's all you're after you'll be fine, but if you aiming for 200+ FPS in Quake 2 or something. You can forget it with that card.
I'm the one with the 7800 GS and I get over 200 FPS in Quake 3 already, not to mention Quake 2. Everything works perfectly also, DOS too.
Is the NV4X driver really that much worse than the (not even officially supported) G7X?

>> No.4901828

>>4901803
The last two cards I bought I got for €20 and €25 respectively, Max and Extreme.
The ones I hoarded like 8 years ago I got for actual cents, like €0,05.

>> No.4901975
File: 217 KB, 848x480, Snap 2018-07-13 at 14.13.23.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4901975

>>4901825
For Win98. XP's drivers fine for the 6 and 7 series.

>Nvidia optimized all their newer drivers for Quake 3 so it's performance won't reflect older games in win98.

>> No.4901981

>>4901825
maybe I was being a bit nit picky but it bothers me to see a Geforce 2 GTS beating a FX5800 because of poor win98 drivers.

>> No.4902164

>>4901803
According to LGRs last video, he has gotten a few dozen for free as donations.

>> No.4902182

>>4902164
LOL... you tubers...

>Which is something I should start doing my self. I've already got a good microphone. I've got a decent Mpeg 2 video camera, but the problem is it's 4:3 and 720P. Crazy good image quality though. I paid a thousand dollars for it back in 04.

I dont' need donations. I've got decades worth of shit that I've hoarded in multiple storage houses. I just know I don't have GUS. :(

>> No.4902261

>>4902182
Sounds more like jealousy

>> No.4902273

>>4902261
If I am it's only for a GUS. Which really should just be a goal.

>> No.4902282

>>4902273
You do know the Gravis meme is blow out of proportions, it was not that good of a card.
A Yamaha or SoundBlaster with a modern wavetable card that can also do GUS will have much better quality, compatibility and cost a fraction of those eBay prices, unless you find someone reasonable to sell it to you for a good price, as not everyone wants to take advantage of people and ask stupidly high prices of things that are not worth it.

>> No.4902286

>>4902282
You know what. That's an even better reason to invest in a programmable wavetable for my Diamond Monster Sound.

I think I'm going to start to try and track one down.

>> No.4904247
File: 1.91 MB, 2016x1512, Building_anticipation.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4904247

>>4900726
I have my emulation computer which is Intel 4th gen core but has mobile graphics, I don't think that will suffice now. My main computer is a 2nd generation Intel, so that's even worse for a modern computer.


>>4900990
Yeah, I decided to get a 1.4Ghz P3 and the 6800 since they were cheap to replace the 1.2Ghz P3 and 5900 which I found in that picture. Now I think I have enough parts to build 2 semi-similar machines (need a mobo tho). I think it will suffice for Win98, but not good enough for XP, but is Glide emulation comparable? I figure I am missing out without the actual hardware as the Voodoo cards were very different architectures.


>>4901580
Since I am aiming for J-Win98SE, I was unable to find drivers that would support past a 6800. Unless there were updates to allow a 7800 or beyond, I don't think I'm willing to go that far. Thanks for the link, saves me from hunting down a Live!


>>4901797
I don't plan on OC the machine, but I just want to play some J-Win9x games I haven't given enough time because I was on 2000 at that time. I have a 486DX4 and early Pentium-75 which I still have cards for my DOS needs. The most demanding titles I may install, which I can think of are: Quake 3, Unreal Tournament, Max Payne (1), NOLF1&2, Oni, and Shogo. So would a different graphics card serve my purposes better? The monitor I will be using maxes out at 1920x1200 (can be higher but too small for its size) 85hz, so I don't think I will gain much benefit from super high framerates.

>> No.4904273

>>4899107
>Purely speaking DOS, which one is better? Live! or Audigy/2?

They are both shit.

>Of course on a machine with no ISA options at all.

If you are doing purely DOS gaming then this is your first problem.

>> No.4904360

>>4899107
Get an old c-media card if you want an OPL clone that doesn't sound like garbage.

>> No.4904471

>>4904273
Reading comprehension? I'm pretty sure he meant if the card is used for DOS games and not Windows games, which one of them would be less shit when used for DOS games on a computer without ISA options.

>> No.4904475

>>4904247
>I was unable to find drivers that would support past a 6800.
No wonder when you had problems even finding a Audigy 2 DOS driver...

>> No.4904667

>>4904247
Glide emulation has been very good since the mid 2000s and basically perfect in the 2010s exception with some fringe cases.
Helps that almost all Glide API calls have a 1:1 equivalent in OpenGL

>> No.4904990

>>4904667
Yes, it's still *almost* though.
Running Unreal side by side the differences are noticeable.

>> No.4905014

>>4904990
Unreal is one those fringe cases, this is partially due to them being very late Glide game, by 1999/2000 most things were Dx7 or OpenGL 1.2.
If I recall correctly Ultima IX which was another late game that had a Glide renderer runs in to issues on emulation as well.
At least Diablo 2 emulates perfectly which is a great thing since it's Glide render blows it's Dx one out of the fucking water (better colors, more complex lightning, can draw more objects on screen, less CPU intensive, more stable). D2 really was coded to be paired with a VooDoo3.

>> No.4905035

>>4905014
I guess to follow up on that, its really crazy to think about how in 1996 the VooDoo just came out, and in 1998/1999 it's already late in the life span of VooDoo and Glide.
Fucking the second half of the 90s was a roller coaster. CPUs got so much faster every few months and accelerated 3d tech was evolving just as fast.
At the time it was really cool to see things evolve non stop, but on the flip side, its kinda nice knowing that my 7 year old PC is still relevant today.

>> No.4905167

>>4899107
both are shit buy this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92olhbB3KKM

>> No.4906247

>>4905167
See
>>4902282

>> No.4907220

>>4904667
But you can't do DOS Glide games with Glide emulation unless you use DOSBox (so why even have original hardware in the first place).