favorite final boss fights

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favorite final boss fights Anonymous Sun Jun 17 15:38:08 2018 No.4844362 [Reply] [Original]

I like FF5's Neo Exdeath. With the multiple parts all doing their own thing it feels like you're fighting a legion.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 15:41:14 2018 No.4844368 >>4844362 I bet you also like that tough as balls decision making of spamming the same spell over and over as you enjoy feeling empowered by mashing the same button in an untimely manner and that's justification enough for a feeling of reward.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 15:48:36 2018 No.4844382 File: 25 KB, 240x320, dogyuun_arcade.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4844368 Don't be that harsh to JRPG fags, this is their home after all

Anonymous Sun Jun 17 15:57:25 2018 No.4844394

>>4844368
>>4844382
I want progressfag to go and stay gone. Worst shitposter on the board hands down.

Anyway, Neo Exdeath is one of the best FF bosses, great theme, very well-designed and actually quite challenging. Did you know he has invisible and invincible parts specifically to soak up hits of X-Fight and Meteor? Or that if you summon Odin from the Magic Lamp rather than the summon command he'd use Zantetsuken and kill one of Neo Exdeath's parts?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 16:00:45 2018 No.4844407 >>4844394 >progressfag Is that the buzzword on /vr/ for those who value strategy, decision making and resource management? And why is that a bad thing?

Anonymous Sun Jun 17 16:02:11 2018 No.4844410
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>>4844394
1. You're quoting more than one poster
2. Progress hasn't been mentioned
3. Also, apparently having a different opinion is shitposting
Nice boogeyman you've got there, buddy

Anonymous Sun Jun 17 16:04:16 2018 No.4844418

>>4844407
To the contrary, progressfag is a faggot who got salty that FFVII is more popular than his obscure arcade shooters so all he does all day is to go into RPG threads and complain about "progress systems". Instead of, you know, making arcade game threads.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 16:04:35 2018 No.4844421 >>4844407 It's what they call me for having dared to criticize their beloved progression systems. They thought your post was mine.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 16:06:01 2018 No.4844428 >>4844418 This thread is called "favorite final boss fights". I know it's implied considering /vr/, but call it "favorite RPG final bosses" next time if you don't want other opinions.

Anonymous Sun Jun 17 16:13:19 2018 No.4844449
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>>4844418
>arcade shooters
Oh God don't get me started on the new-gens going "superplayer mode" by mimicking famous Japanese plays that are watching on youtube. No wonder their genre is dead.

Back to the topic. This fucking shit. Oh how I wish I could stomach Xenogears' aesthetics today. I can even play Atari 2600 games with no problem but whenever I boot Xenogears I just can't play more than 10 minutes.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 16:23:52 2018 No.4844475 >>4844394 >very well-designed This "The Thing" style of slapping random body parts together is overused in JRPGs.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 16:25:52 2018 No.4844478 >>4844368 Absolutely fucking based.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 16:29:35 2018 No.4844484 >>4844362 what is it with japanese final bosses and naked women attached to monsters

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 16:30:59 2018 No.4844487 >>4844484 If you really think about it, it's not that weird

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 17:11:52 2018 No.4844594 Zeromus from FF4 for me, though solely for nostalgia purposes. Lavos from Chrono Trigger was a bigger pain in the ass.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 17:29:41 2018 No.4844629 >>4844449 To this day I have no idea what that fight is like if you don’t kill his angels. I only fought him once with only 2/4 when I was a kid and the other times I had them all dead.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 17:44:11 2018 No.4844657 >>4844368 >>4844478 samefag

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 17:47:43 2018 No.4844663 >>4844594 Use physical techs and spam megaelixirs

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 17:53:37 2018 No.4844680 >>4844449 I now the feeling, Xenogears has aged horribly. The only thing that keeps me going is the story, characters, and music. But that goddamned unfinished second disc...

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 17:55:12 2018 No.4844682 >>4844362 >their own thing it feels like you're fighting a legion. I just spam gil toss, lol

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 17:55:46 2018 No.4844684 Captain Syrup with her genie in Wario Land had my heart beating like crazy when I was 6.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 17:57:23 2018 No.4844687 >>4844428 >if you don't want other opinions. This >>4844368 was just a shit post and you know it. And it would have been made even if the thread was just for JRPG bosses

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 17:57:36 2018 No.4844691 >>4844680 Why am I not surprised you guys are ignoring game mechanics entirely? >the aesthetics are bad but the story, characters and music kept me going Jesus fuck

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 17:59:47 2018 No.4844696 >>4844684 I thought she was hot, mainly because I was starting puberty when I first played it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 18:02:30 2018 No.4844703 >>4844691 That's because Xenogears mechanics, other than the mech combat, were nothing new or special.

Anonymous Sun Jun 17 18:13:02 2018 No.4844723
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>>4844362
If Kefka wasn't so stupid easy, it would deffinitely be him. Instead I'll choose Zophar from Lunar 2 because as with several battles in that game I won with everyone but Hiro dead, out of healing items and zero mp. Plus it was dramatic and the music rocked.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 18:17:49 2018 No.4844736 >>4844680 There's little reason to play it in my opinion. A lot of the first disk has promise but nothing really comes together well and that's just a microcosm of the whole series.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 18:38:27 2018 No.4844791 >>4844687 >It's a shitpost because I disagree with it No it wasn't. I was criticizing FF games and their final bosses. Sorry that I have to spell it out for you.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 18:39:49 2018 No.4844794 >>4844791 You don't know what shitposting is.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 18:40:06 2018 No.4844795 >>4844736 >>4844703 The one game we'll never get a remake... >>4844723 Fuck that guy. Lunar had some dragged on fights but at least the final boss was feeling like a final boss.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 18:41:07 2018 No.4844798 >>4844794 That doesn't mean that I wasn't criticizing Final Fantasy or that my criticism wasn't valid.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 18:41:55 2018 No.4844801 >>4844798 It doesn't matter if it was valid or not, it was shitposting.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 18:45:02 2018 No.4844810 >>4844801 >Present argument >"it's wrong because I say so" Glad to see you're still around progressfag. Shouldn't you be copying youtube vids now?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 18:47:18 2018 No.4844818 >>4844801 >accuses me for shitposting Bitch I posted at least 2 bosses in this thread, don't fucking accuse me for targeted derailing.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 18:48:16 2018 No.4844821 >>4844810 You're not talking to "the progressfag", in case you weren't aware of that already. In fact, that other guy isn't even mentioning progress stuff, he just isn't into FF bosses

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 18:48:33 2018 No.4844823 File: 2 KB, 320x288, 24-FFL3_30.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4844801 Just let him fume and write reams of shit no one cares about. FF Legend's Creator for me.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 18:51:24 2018 No.4844828 >>4844810 What? You're the one trying to derail a thread by criticising FF when it is uncalled for instead of following the thread topic (shitposting). Why are you calling me progressfag you utter retard.

Anonymous Sun Jun 17 18:54:15 2018 No.4844835

>>4844828
Apparently JRPG fans have developed a boogeyman. Every poster they dislike is "the anti-progress fag"
It's hilarious because I'm that guy and yet the thread is full of people accusing others of being me just for disagreements even when progression stuff isn't even being mentioned

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 18:59:55 2018 No.4844849 >>4844835 Well the guy self identified as such is in this thread and frequently on the board. But congrats for blending in with him :)

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 19:05:03 2018 No.4844859 >>4844828 If you can see it's bait, which that original comment obviously was, then biting it as hard as you are certainly isn't helping the situation.

Anonymous Sun Jun 17 19:05:31 2018 No.4844861

>>4844849
Yes, I've posted before, here are all my posts
>>4844382
>>4844410
>>4844421
>>4844428
>>4844487
>>4844691
>>4844821
>>4844835

What I find interesting is how some posters here make up stuff about me based on whatever stereotypes. I played these games quite a bit in my teen years (so 10-15 years ago), I just got tired of them being compromised by plot or progress and over time and gradually became to appreciate more games that weren't compromised and were fully engaging.
However, I still find some aspects of these fun. Yet when in another thread I criticized DQ1 for being too grind-heavy and only appealing to those who play for progression, the backlash, man... I promised to never bring that up again here tho, no more progress criticism. Yet I see some posters here are still mad at me and even think other "shitposters" (aka people with different opinions) are me.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 19:26:02 2018 No.4844901 This board has finally officially become total and complete shit, thanks guys

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 19:30:26 2018 No.4844913 >>4844901 Nah, it's OK. Post your favorite JRPG final bosses like the others are doing

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 19:39:13 2018 No.4844935 >>4844657 Nope. The standard JRPG is about one step above visual novels in terms of actual gameplay. They were up there with horse racing, mahjong, and platformers in terms of the Japanese developed shovelware genres of the late 80s/early-to-mid 90s.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 19:41:16 2018 No.4844936 >>4844935 (though to be fair, shovelware platformers seemed to be more of a western thing)

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 19:43:29 2018 No.4844941 >>4844935 >>4844936 Nah, platformer were on average more respectable. Particularly Japanese stuff as you know

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 19:50:28 2018 No.4844954 >>4844823 Creator is one of those rare final bosses in JRPGs that aren't gigantic Lovecraftian monsters, doesn't have an alternate form, is the same size as a regular human, has a very small number of attacks, and is far weaker than preceding bosses.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 20:00:47 2018 No.4844974 >>4844861 So you mean when you told a bunch of fans of a game that they enjoyed it for bad reasons they gave you shit about it? Did you expect something else?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 20:02:24 2018 No.4844981 >>4844974 On the contrary, the OP didn't like the game either. Just that my particular reasons for disliking the game are too triggering here for some reason.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 20:12:38 2018 No.4844993 >>4844981 I think it's more your attitude and way of speaking than the content. Even people who like DQ1 usually say it's kinda grindy and boring.

Anonymous Sun Jun 17 21:02:38 2018 No.4845049

>>4844993
Nah, it's because there is a difference. Those you mention usually oppose forced grinding but are fine with the concept. In my case I find the entire concept ruins these games (the degree to which depends on the game), they have the potential of being tight mazes with strategic turn based encounters but instead they are watered down by progress unbalance and narratives constraining game design because the latter appeals to more people.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 23:00:10 2018 No.4845227 >>4845049 Dude just stop posting. Everyone hates you.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jun 17 23:26:46 2018 No.4845282 >>4845227 >being this triggered

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 01:02:48 2018 No.4845419 >>4844368 >jrpgs take no skill though anon real eye-opener, faggot

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 01:52:40 2018 No.4845478

>>4845419
Turn-based JRPG is the brainlet genre. Funny how Super Mario RPG, which is considered baby's first RPG, basically perfected the genre and combined the standard JRPG style with actual gameplay elements, but I guess requiring reflexes and actually rewarding paying attention to even grinding battles was too much to ask.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 02:04:28 2018 No.4845492 >>4845478 Nice falseflagging

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 02:22:51 2018 No.4845508 >>4845478 you could try not grinding like a baby anon, the choice is yours on whether you man up and solve the puzzles or play it in baby mode

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 02:42:34 2018 No.4845520 >>4844368 >I bet you also like that tough as balls decision making Yeah pretty much. It's not the game's fault if you play overleveled like a retarded faggot.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 02:46:47 2018 No.4845524 >>4845508 Jarpigs have no good puzzles, stop being delusional.

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 03:02:50 2018 No.4845539

>>4845520
>enter new area
>basic enemies drain health surprisingly quickly compared to the last area, fast enough that you aren't sure whether or not you are underleveled or just missing out on a trick to beat these enemies
>try elemental attack spells based on what would be counters to the enemy's potential element
>the new enemy is weak to one of these spells,, still not enough to make the battle go quickly
>use status effect move
>oops it's immune to that one
>try again, find one that works, wasting some healing items in the process
>"OK, so if I use this particular combination of spells, attacks, and status effects, I can beat this standard area enemy in 3 minutes in a boring as shit battle with no adrenaline rush or logic beyond the games arbitrary web of weakness and resistances"
>this is somehow fun and not just a barrier between you and the next weekday-afternoon-anime-tier plot point

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 03:06:01 2018 No.4845542 >>4845539 How's that different from popcorn enemies in arcade games? Also how's it related to Exdeath boss fight?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 03:09:01 2018 No.4845545 >>4845520 30ish hours of playtime isn't being overleveled.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 03:14:40 2018 No.4845554 >>4845545 Pretty sure 30 hours of grinding like a retard and complaining about it will make you overleveled.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 03:17:11 2018 No.4845557 >>4845542 Why do you assume he's into arcade games? Also, if you already know what a popcorn enemy is you surely know it's not the same. Executing the same menu sequence every time isn't comparable to action execution in any way

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 04:08:15 2018 No.4845612 >>4845554 I was a different poster than the one who complained. 30ish hours is the average playtime for JRPGs. The advertised playtime for some Squaresoft RPGs is actually much more than that. So grinding is actually intended by the developers.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 04:08:47 2018 No.4845613 >>4845524 the entire turn based combat system is a puzzle that you refuse to solve any way other than making the numbers go up (the dumbest and least efficient way to solve it)

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 04:11:52 2018 No.4845617 >>4845613 Why do they allow said numbers to go up in the first place anyway? Wouldn't it be better without that?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 07:38:09 2018 No.4845762 >>4844823 Damn good choice anon. Playing this back in 89, or the early 90s --- the creator was a genuine surprise and challenge at the time.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 11:18:50 2018 No.4846024 >JRPG threads getting spammed now more than ever thanks to anti-progress-systemfag trolling JRPGfags Delicious.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 12:04:44 2018 No.4846102 >>4845613 Then why have the level up system at all? Given that many RPGs utilize random encounters, how can a player determine the cutoff point between overleveled and underleveled?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 12:06:51 2018 No.4846104 >>4846024 The funny thing is I'm not even trolling, they just have a knee-jerk reaction to progression being criticised or someone enjoying these DESPITE that stuff and not because of it.

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 12:09:42 2018 No.4846107

>>4846102
Exactly, as I pointed out here >>4845617
Instead they'll blindly defend progres, calling it part of the genre, etc. They have a preference and can't take the alternative.
These games are definitely compromised mechanicaly due to levelling shit. It happens everywhere, just that with JRPGs it was from the start and thus there never was a chance to see them without progress. About the closest thing you can play like that is the Nintendo Wars game, but they lack the maze exploration aspect and the deeper options in the menu.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 12:32:24 2018 No.4846138 File: 15 KB, 480x320, 43-032.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4844362

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 12:34:31 2018 No.4846143 File: 137 KB, 220x500, 116a5b1f242350dccc7b3b487fd1a1fb.jpg.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Both times you fight this guy.

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 12:40:50 2018 No.4846151

>>4845617
No. Jesus christ you are so dense. In a highly complex game with a lot of rules and details, it's best to introduce those rules and details slowly.

Also, one thing that's absolutely never talked about in these retarded discussions is the role of creativity. A game like FFV encourages creativity in gameplay, allowing players to solve problems in any number of different ways. Some are more efficient than others but multiple tactics are viable. Some people are inherently not creative and simply don't understand why anyone else might find this kind of thing satisfying. It's pointless to try and explain to someone who lacks any creative interest whatsoever and cares only about solving arbitrary challenges.

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 12:43:46 2018 No.4846156

>>4846151
>In a highly complex game with a lot of rules and details, it's best to introduce those rules and details slowly.
Not my fault I don't want the game to be compromised for brainlets
Guess what, they started doing the same shit in action games later.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 12:46:59 2018 No.4846159 >>4845282 >being this unable to make a point without pissing people off for no reason other than you're a salty passive-aggressive faggot

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 12:48:15 2018 No.4846161 >>4846156 Yeah and now we have masterpieces like Dark Souls thanks to that.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 12:49:03 2018 No.4846164 >>4846159 "I don't like progress systems" REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE FUCK OFF ANTI-PROGRESS FAG

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 12:50:05 2018 No.4846165 >>4846161 >masterpieces like Dark Souls I massively disagree. You see, different tastes

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 12:53:38 2018 No.4846172 >>4846161 Dark Souls is fucking trash. Shadow Tower was a much better Progressvania by FROMsoft.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 12:56:16 2018 No.4846176 >>4846172 >Progressvania That's actually a better term for stuff like SotN and later similar 3D games, even if Dark Souls isn't THAT babyfied

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 13:03:33 2018 No.4846182 >>4844475 >This "The Thing" style of slapping random body parts together is overused in JRPGs. But Exdeath was a tree whom those things were sealed in. After he was swallowed and spat out all those things merged together

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 13:37:49 2018 No.4846221

>>4846172
> Dark Souls is fucking trash.
You clearly don't know the first thing about good game design.
>>4846165
> taste vs quality
There are plenty of well-designed, high-quality games that I don't like very much. Apparently you just don't know how to distinguish objective from subjective.
>>4846164
>"I don't like progress systems"
Even the most moderate post has exaggerated shit like "the entire concept ruins these games." Most take blatantly ignorant backhanded digs at people who play the games. And for christ's sake stop embarassing yourself by posting "REEE" unironically. It's a sure sign of a mental midget.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 13:41:27 2018 No.4846228 >>4846221 I was talking about my tastes, not saying Dank Souls is objectively worse. I don't find low fps progressfest action games as appealing, simple as that >the entire concept ruins these games To me. They ruin them for me.

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 13:58:08 2018 No.4846256
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>>4845049
Ehh... I'm not so sure. I too think most rpgs are pretty boring and that grinding is lame. But your attitude about everything is so insufferable it makes even agreeing on the stuff I theoretically would hard.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 14:01:33 2018 No.4846259 >>4846256 Care less about the "attitude" and more about the actual message then

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 14:02:44 2018 No.4846261 >>4844368 am I in /v/?

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 14:08:39 2018 No.4846275

>>4844449
My gears where severely undertuned when I fought this guy, and I didn't want to grind or leave the dungeon because it was a pain in the ass. I only managed to beat him by severely micromanaging my limited resources across all my party members, and even when I did it was one of those situations in which I got good RNG and if the fight had gone for one more turn I would probably have lost, felt pretty good.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 14:29:06 2018 No.4846305 >>4846228 > progressfest > Dark souls Christ what an idiot. If you think DS is a progressfest game, then it's safe to ignore any use of the term entirely. It means you have literally no ability to evaluate the real impact such a system has on a game.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 14:29:58 2018 No.4846307 >>4846259 Why?

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 14:35:31 2018 No.4846316

>>4846305
https://www.google.es/search?q=dark+souls+grind&oq=dark+souls+grind&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.1939j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
I wonder if people got into these partly because you could farm for shit and make it easier? Hmm.
>>4846307
The message is more important than the "feeling" unless you're overly sensitive I guess

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 14:54:29 2018 No.4846356
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It’s extremely cliche but the final fight against Ganon in Ocarina of Time really does feel incredible from the atmosphere, music, art direction, everything...except for the difficulty which is piss-easy. Then in the remake they completely ruined the tone of the fight and it’s no longer fun.

In terms of final bosses with gameplay I loved, probably the Wily Capsule from Mega Man 7. If you just use the buster and don’t Cheese it with E-tank abuse it’s actually a very fun, challenging, engaging final fight. But the atmosphere is nowhere near Ganon’s, hence why I’m listing both.

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 15:41:34 2018 No.4846478

>>4846316
Well from my perspective it's more important for you to learn how to express yourself without coming across as a total dipshit. Also it's funny to watch you get pissy when everyone else piles up and mocks you. So I'll just keep enjoying the show.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 15:46:37 2018 No.4846484 >>4846356 A small price to pay for a somewhat less annoying Water Temple and boot switching.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 16:21:56 2018 No.4846558 >>4846138 Really? Wasn't that fight just "Reveal her true form with Agni then alternate between attacking and using Cures for a full-heal" until she died?

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 16:28:56 2018 No.4846569

>>4846316
Doesn't change the fact that soul farming is not remotely necessary and suffers diminishing returns very quickly. There's no reasonable amount of soul-farming you can do that will trivialize Gwyn or O&S. The game mechanics are designed heavily around avoiding damage, meaning that so long as you upgrade your weapon and shield (which is possible using only static drops, no farming required) you'll have a reasonable chance of winning.

Meanwhile, the progress system winds up being (among other things) a fantastic way to allow them to develop a unique build based on what they learn about the game and their play style as they go along, instead of locking them into a specific class that they had to choose when they knew absolutely nothing about the game.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 16:43:04 2018 No.4846610 >>4846569 This. The problem with RPGs is the OP equipment you can find that breaks game balance, not necessarily the stats system.

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 17:42:28 2018 No.4846731

In a well baslanced rpg like this >>484472 or PSIV you gain enough xp through regular exploring but not stopping to grind that bosses are tough but beatable.

Also one of the nice things about a game with xp gain is that tge same as you can do grindy runs where you make things way too easy, you can also do challenge low level runs.

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 18:07:40 2018 No.4846798 [DELETED]

>>4846610
Eh, well in Dark Souls equipment isn't OP either. Not to go too far down this non-retro discussion but it's an action game that's heavily balanced around skill, where leveling just lets you make a few more mistakes before losing and upgrading a weapon just means a boss fight takes a bit less time. You can't level to where skill doesn't matter and you don't need to level at all to beat the game. (You do kind of need at least some weapon upgrades to keep the game from being a ridiculous slog, though)

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 18:26:42 2018 No.4846834 >>4846798 You joshing? Once I found that black lance in the forest I could cheese 99% of the encounters in Dark Souls.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 18:29:52 2018 No.4846843 File: 228 KB, 402x479, k rool .png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Gonna have to say K. Rool from the first Donkey Kong Country

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 19:10:57 2018 No.4846904 [DELETED]

>>4846161
DS is an incoherent mess filled to the brim with exploits and half baked ideas. Everything is exploitable even basic enemies (short leashes, easy to aggro one by one or in small groups, dumb AI, no real ability to deal with basic bitch circle strafing and backstabs, easily trivialized by parrying). Then youve got the multitude of cheesy builds like spellcasters throwing off risk vs reward, havelfags who mash R1 through the game while sipping one of their 20 estus and fucking summoning. Then you have the fact that the importance of levels is rather minimal and thus you can and should run past all enemies in an area once youre familliar with it. Its a game where you have to try very hard if you want to have fun, by never using the insanely OP summons, going with a simple dex build, not kindling bonfires or just plain doing a SL1 run and disregarding most of the bullshit. Even once you do all that the moment to moment combat is mind numbing in just about every way, you can get a far more engaging experience from Knights of the Round. Parading it as an rpg masterpiece is just stupid, it has some cool ideas but the execution is shit tier.

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 19:41:12 2018 No.4846940 [DELETED]

>>4846834
That's a rare drop, you have to kill a decently difficult enemy to get it, and even if you do get the drop, you can't "cheese" many bosses with it. You still have to know what you're doing (or summon help) to beat even easy bosses like Quelaag. Having the BKH doesn't suddenly make the game completely trivial. It's only an overpowered weapon early/mid game and then only relative to other weapons in the game. Also, you have to boost your strength to a decent amount to make use of it, which sacrifices points you could have put into other stats.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 19:48:41 2018 No.4846948 >>4846834 You can't use a lance to just tank hits. His point was that even though you can find powerful equipment, you still need to play well because you typically can't get to a point where none of the monsters can kill you.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 19:51:39 2018 No.4846950 >>4846948 You can if you stack up on poise

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 20:08:39 2018 No.4846976 [DELETED]

>>4846904
> DS is an incoherent mess
lol ok dude
> short leashes
Very few are short enough make a big difference. Most of the time it just means that running away is not a pointlessly annoying experience.
> easy to aggro one by one or in small groups
This is in no way "incoherent" or even a flaw, to the extent that it is even true (see: Duke's Archives). Good lord the bottom-scraping that people do to gin up criticism of this game is ridiculous.
> dumb AI
Arbitrary criticism that could be applied to any game. Enemy AI is clearly tuned within desired gameplay parameters and challenge. It's like criticizing Mike Tyson's Punch-Out because it doesn't use a more sophisticated AI. Even in DkS, AI phantoms are clearly more sophisticated than normal enemies, confirming that AI tuning is a decision not oversight or carelessness.
> no real ability to deal with basic bitch circle strafing
The only valid point in your entire argument
> havelfags who mash R1 through the game while sipping one of their 20 estus and fucking summoning.
You can't poise through Smough's Hammer and you don't get Havel's until halfway through the game anyway.
> easily trivialized by parrying
"Easily trivialized" by using a technique that requires accurate timing, always results in taking damage if you screw up, and doesn't work on most bosses. Got it.
> Its a game where you have to try very hard if you want to have fun
Not using summons in a game obviously designed to be a primarily single-player experience is not "trying very hard." Could you be any more of an obnoxious faggot?
> Even once you do all that the moment to moment combat is mind numbing in just about every way, you can get a far more engaging experience from Knights of the Round.
The answer to the previous question is: yes most definitely.
> Parading it as an rpg masterpiece
I didn't qualify that shit. I don't even think of it as an RPG, more of an action-adventure game.

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 20:20:24 2018 No.4846990 [DELETED]

>>4846950
Again to bring this semi back on topic: the point is that that "progress system" in Dark Souls does not ruin the game. You can poise-tank a decent number of enemies in the game using Estus and heavy armor, but you still have to plan and execute the DPS race tactic (which isn't always as easy as it sounds), and "progress grinding" has very little to do with whether poise-tanking will be effective or not.

If I knew of a retro game with a similarly balanced progress system I'd have used that as an example.

In any case, to answer the main thread topic, my favorite retro final bosses are:

> Mike Tyson from Punch-Out
> Bowser from SMB 3
> Zeromus from FF4

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 20:59:42 2018 No.4847068 [DELETED]

>>4846976
>Very few are short enough make a big difference.
Ever heard of bows? You can draw out just about any enemy easily out with it
>This is in no way "incoherent" or even a flaw
It's a massive flaw because it destroys encounters, what is meant to be a multi group unique challenge becomes a 1v1 cheesefest, allowing players to trivialize encounters this way is not good design
>Arbitrary criticism that could be applied to any game
Nonsense, the context in which it's used is clear in that the AI is incapable of dealing with simple exploits such as leash abuse, circle strafing, ranged combat and a whole host of other problems.
>You can't poise through Smough's Hammer and you don't get Havel's until halfway through the game anyway.
Right so only half the game is shit? Havel's armor is the best example but it's by no means the only one, you can get Stone Armor very early on
>"Easily trivialized" by using a technique that requires accurate timing
Not very accurate, the window is large and missing it even cuts the damage you receive. But the biggest problem here is that that's all it is, a simplistc timing challenge
>it doesn't work on bosses
Oh yeah, that's another aspect that makes the game incoherent, it drops its mechanics whenever it pleases without consistency
>Not using summons in a game obviously designed to be a primarily single-player experience is not "trying very hard."
Not using summons, not using easy mode brainless gear, not keeping 20 estus, not using game mechanics, not using cheesy strats, etc. Summons are hardly some kind of unintended game mechanic, it's the reward for quests and plays an important role in the game's various stories, just because it's poorly thought out and broken doesn't mean you're not meant to use it.

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 21:19:34 2018 No.4847116 [DELETED]

>>4846990
The mere presence of progression systems does not immediately ruin games, yes because it's a question of how they are handled. Something like Parasite Eve is a fairly solid combination of stat and gear progression and skill-based combat too. But these games deliberately de-emphasize progression and try to fall on the skill based end of the spectrum. Basically it's acceptable if its influence over gameplay is kept to a minimum, though even then it tends to cause minor problems such as gating gear behind stats making experimentation with builds tedious in Dark Souls.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 21:28:13 2018 No.4847125 >>4847116 Glad to know something is acceptable!

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 21:31:10 2018 No.4847130

>>4844368
The fact that you think anything you are doing in video games justifies some kind of ego satisfaction is laughable. You aren't special because you're moderately above average at video games, especially considering the best players in the entire world are currently a foot note in someone's "101 Interesting Facts", and won't ever be much more than that.

You can try to pretend that someone who plays oldschool JRPG's is somehow inferior to you because they're only making hard decisions about single button presses, but just realize that pressing two buttons a using a stick has about as much more complexity as that of a high-function autist compared to a low-functioning autist.

Unless you're a CEO of a production company, your involvement with games is completely irrelevant. Nothing you do as a player matters, and it will never matter.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 21:35:27 2018 No.4847132 >>4847130 >getting this assblasted Well if you want to waste your time doing mind numbing grinding be my guest

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 22:14:34 2018 No.4847210 >>4847132 At least he's having fun instead of spending all day moping about how gaming sucks now.

Anonymous Mon Jun 18 22:44:01 2018 No.4847260

>>4847132
I Just got here and o Just knew i'd find this guy in here the moment I saw the OP.

Why do you show up at every jrpg thread there is if You clearly dislike the genre so Much , some of your complaints are valid and interesting, You already said everything You had to say and people already heard it and dissgreed, not so much with your ir basic ideas but with your full retard conclusions . I for one agree with You that progresion systems can suck badly implemented, especially on multiplayer games, but not every game with permanent rewards is shit and and a grindfest.

You need to take a break from this board man, people will start ignoring You soon enough but so it for your own mental health, that amount of negativity......
Do some physical activities.....

>>	Anonymous Mon Jun 18 22:51:22 2018 No.4847278 >>4847260 This is the first time I posted in an rpg thread in years anon, you guys are very paranoid

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 00:31:50 2018 No.4847436 >>4847278 >it's a progress fag starts samefagging when he gets ganged up on episode

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 00:42:39 2018 No.4847449 File: 54 KB, 728x546, aid698490-v4-728px-Increase-Your-Ejaculate-Step-2-Version-3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4847436 You got me mate. I'll forever post in these threads while changing up my posting style and complaints slightly.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 03:38:19 2018 No.4847616 >>4846558 That's because I didn't know Agni existed when I defeated her the first time.

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 04:30:42 2018 No.4847668

>>4847449
Holy shit, these guys are pathetic, aren't they?
Your position is clearly different from mine yet because it still triggers them they still echo chamber your ass
Quote, "Ganging up" against anons with different opinions (or maybe because they're blunt about them) just because they are not cookie cutter, holy shit.

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 07:48:41 2018 No.4847814

>>4847668
One anon's theory = "these guys are pathetic"

39 posters in this thread, a tiny handful are crusty-assed oldfags whinging about the downfall of gaming or /vr/ and blaming those damn JRPGs with their 'story' and 'progress systems' and 'spamming same spell over and over' gameplay and making snide, backhanded, passive-aggressive insults at anyone who enjoys them and has a different perspective.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 07:52:13 2018 No.4847818 >>4847814 Wait, are we oldfags or edgy teens? Make up your mind

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 08:04:51 2018 No.4847837 So what are you guys favorite boss fights

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 08:06:03 2018 No.4847838 >>4847837 Already posted >>4844382

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 09:43:47 2018 No.4847941 [DELETED]

>>4846164
yea no it's more like
>spends all day every day on /vr/ derailing every rpg thread with smarmy rants of stop-liking-what-I-don't-like over and over and over and over and over
"good god you faggot just fuck off"
>oh you get triggered when I insult your grindfest?!? are you afraid of discussion??? why do you resort to ad hominem? what does that say about you? hmmmmMMMMMMM???

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 09:46:24 2018 No.4847947 File: 121 KB, 366x687, Last-Boss.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Most final boss fights are so anticlimactic.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 11:17:31 2018 No.4848049 >>4847941 What does that make you for continuing to reply to him?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 11:19:18 2018 No.4848053 >>4847818 It takes a unique blend of ignorance and faggotry to come off as both at the same time.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 11:20:48 2018 No.4848057 >>4845539 Maybe you should play Doom or something. You can shoot the bad guy with the gun in that game. Seems to be more your speed.

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 11:28:16 2018 No.4848063

>>4844362
This fight is a real bear on certain challenge modes.

Jobless is probably my favorite.
You're swapping weapons out like fucking batman to buff yourself and use

Figuring out how to beat Omni was the hardest part.
Breaking rods counts as a physical move to him, so he just resets.

The trick is to have Mage Masher and Ancient Sword.
You equip reflect rings and attack with Mage Masher, then immediately with Ancient Sword and home mute and old proc on him.

Once they do, his level will drop until his regen is useless and he'll kill himself with his own spells.

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 11:36:47 2018 No.4848070

>>4847837
I poasted:
> Mike Tyson from Punch-Out
> Bowser from SMB 3
> Zeromus from FF4
For retro favorites. Other good final Bosses:
> Dr Wily from Megaman 2
The final phase is merely OK but the boss sequence as a whole is solid.
> M. Bison from Street Fighter II
Great appearance and challenge, very satisfying to finally beat.
> Kefka from Final Fantasy 6
Mentioning only for the music and aesthetics. The fight itself, especially the final phase against Kefka himself, is kind of a letdown.

Some other memorable boss fights that aren't "final bosses":
> Weigraf and Velius from Final Fantasy Tactics
> Marquis Elmdor from Final Fantasy Tactics
> Evilwall from Final Fantasy 4
> The gun-wielding opponent in Bushido Blade
> The Green Dragon boss in Wily Stage 1 from Mega Man 2.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 11:37:02 2018 No.4848071 >>4848053 I think it's fun that he has the old man attitude of everything new being shitty and horrible mixed with teenaged edginess and tantrums. It makes for a lot of fun responses.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 11:53:05 2018 No.4848094 >>4848057 kek >>4848063 that's badass dude

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 12:14:11 2018 No.4848119 File: 122 KB, 800x557, disappointment.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I don't know what my favorite is, but this might be my least favorite. Awesome games with crappy let down endings are a travesty.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 12:47:42 2018 No.4848201 >>4844954 he's weaker? I thought he was more dangerous because of FLARE. Though everyone is a chump when put to the SAW.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 14:14:20 2018 No.4848363 >>4846843 It’s a fun fight with a kickass song but I still prefer the fight from the second game (the one on the flying Kroc, not the krokodile kore one where he takes one hit to kill and just spams easy to dodge projectiles for 2 minutes)

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 14:15:41 2018 No.4848368 [DELETED]

>>4848063
>mashing the same button is a real bear
>challenge modes
>jarpigs
>challenge
Pffft, stop pretending that there's something more than one button grindan in your autstic number crunching VNs. If you valued real strategy, decision making and resource management you would play real games like Mars Matrix *go play Mars Matrix* instead of weekday-afternoon-anime-tier interactive picture books.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 14:25:34 2018 No.4848386 >>4848368 that game looks gay

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 14:28:00 2018 No.4848391 >>4848386 Probably because it has a progress system

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 14:51:31 2018 No.4848426 >>4848368 >trying this hard

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 15:13:01 2018 No.4848460 [DELETED]

is it true that the stereotypical jrpg player is a skinnyfat dad bod poorly raised dork fuck who's never mustered effort to achieve anything of effort or value ever and needs roleplay games as hedonism to forget how they shit and failed they are as human beings?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 15:58:46 2018 No.4848549 >>4848391 it looks like something developers shat out in 30 minutes then went for drinks and toasted the low standards of their fans.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 16:00:31 2018 No.4848553 >>4848460 typical jrpg player is 10-15 and roleplays hero's journey stories because that's what boys that age do.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 16:03:08 2018 No.4848561 >>4848549 Ah yes, "looks", the classic brainlet method of evaluation

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 16:23:07 2018 No.4848605 >>4848561 Better than the "just make shit up" method you use.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 16:26:23 2018 No.4848617 >>4848605 ? I play every game I criticize pretty extensively

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 16:28:38 2018 No.4848623 >>4848617 The content of your posts contradicts this. If what you say is true, you have a spectacular ability to play games without actually understanding them.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 16:34:37 2018 No.4848632 >>4848623 Which posts would those be? I only made some posts criticizing Dark Souls while detailing countless very concrete reasons why I dislike it that aren't just "hurrr game look bad on youtube me no like"

Retardo Tue Jun 19 16:55:48 2018 No.4848675 [DELETED]

>>4848632
They assume you're "me", what they call the anti-progress fag. In fact I've never played Dark Souls because by the time it came out I had already outgrown games compromised by progression so it didn't seem appealing.
Apparently I'm the only one criticising these games in any shape or form on the board lol

Also, I see you guys are still butthurt as fuck, what the hell is this shit >>4848368

This guy gets it >>4848049
You could very easily ignore me if you find me to be a faggot but instead react furiously, which is why I say you're triggered

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 16:58:24 2018 No.4848679 lol this thread is a big ol autistic slap-fight. never change /vr/

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:00:17 2018 No.4848684 >>4848679 >slap-fight. Now that's a cool if simple game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kkbot35_RtY

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:03:41 2018 No.4848695 [DELETED]

>>4848675
These niggas are just kinda dumb desu. They assume these criticisms are coming from a lack of experience (likely because they do that shit themselves as seen by the Mars Matrix guy) when in reality just like you I've already played all these dumb games years ago before realizing that they're low engagement time wasting shit. Though unlike you I don't mind all types of progression systems, some do end up enhancing games strategically. But this is mostly restricted to western open world RPG's where gating is soft and can be bypassed by experienced players allowing some neat routing. JRPG's are fucking terrible at it because they're mostly linear as shit.

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:06:25 2018 No.4848705 [DELETED]

>>4848695
Post removed, fucking really?
Progression isn't 100% shit (it's good when it's used to adapt your characters to how the game is developing, mostly for turn based stuff), but it's mostly terrible and has killed classic gaming over time, so it's hard to tolerate it if you're into engaging games that challenge you beyond self-imposed challenges

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:09:23 2018 No.4848708 >>4848695 >>4848705 put on trips so I can filter you

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:10:47 2018 No.4848715 >>4848708 Or you can ignore the posts. It's like I'm bringing it up myself anymore, so it won't be hard. Unless you guys keep whining like what happened here

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:11:50 2018 No.4848717 >>4848715 It isn't like*

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:20:46 2018 No.4848737 [DELETED]

>>4848705
It's quite a slippery slope, especially when the incentives to make games skill-based aren't there. When your primary goal is to make a skill based, challenging and deep game, progression systems are added in service of that and their implementation tends to benefit the core gameplay, because developers ask "how can I make this more interesting". But in JRPG's half the time they are there simply because people get addicted to seeing rising numbers, and end up not only adding nothing to the skillfulness but taking away from it. The only benefit I see is that stats can help you regulate challenge in a more fine-tuned way, so being underlevelled can make fights more interesting and tactics will have to change depending on just how underlevelled you are. But at that point it's better to just play an SRPG, they allow the same thing without being brainless.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:22:35 2018 No.4848741 >>4848708 Nah, you're going to have to deal with seeing opinions you disagree with sunshine

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:23:43 2018 No.4848746 >>4848737 Exactly. But apparently wishing JRPGs were made without progression and finding their potential (mazelike exploration + turn based strategic encounters) was wasted is too taboo

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:25:34 2018 No.4848748 >>4848708 This. Pleeeease.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:27:33 2018 No.4848752 >>4848715 You're the one who's whining, you insecure little twat.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:27:40 2018 No.4848756 >>4848748 >mommy please my feefees Talk about your JRPG final bosses and ignore this then

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:29:20 2018 No.4848761 >>4848746 Probably the same kinds of people who will defend random drops

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:29:20 2018 No.4848762 >>4848746 >is too taboo Nah, wishing that RPGs weren't RPGs is just being an autistic retard.

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:29:51 2018 No.4848764 [DELETED]

>>4848752
You sure? Posters calling others "the progressfag" for disagreeing (even when progression hasn't been mentioned) and making fun of my opinions while I haven't posted on the thread previously is not whining?
And you keep replying. Why this much butthurt? Is progression that sacred to you? Damn

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:30:54 2018 No.4848768 >>4848762 >wishing that RPGs weren't RPGs Mazelike exploration with strategic turn based encounters isn't a JRPG?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:34:47 2018 No.4848773 >>4848768 Are you pretending to be retarded? RPG without character growth isn't an RPG.

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:36:59 2018 No.4848778 [DELETED]

>>4848762
Nothing wrong with that desu, the genre needs to be shaken up more. It's an ill-conceived broad genre that attempted to emulate tabletop roleplaying games without considering how well they fit with the video game medium. It's so filled with inconsistencies and contradictions that for example any discussion of JRPGs vs WRPGs will always become an absolute clusterfuck. People who defend progression systems for their own sake don't even make up the majority of RPG fans, there's a massive subset of people who thinks the games should be about making choices intuitively, instead of letting them be dictated by stats.

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:39:49 2018 No.4848781 [DELETED]

>>4848773
This is a good example of what I was just talking about. Character growth in tabletop RPGs is a simple attempt to simulate skill progression. Video games don't need such abstractions, you can literally develop your skills when you play them which directly translates in how capable your character is.

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:42:13 2018 No.4848787 [DELETED]

>>4848741
yeah, these triggered as fuck opinions spammed all over the board in a concentrated effort to attack the culture because you're upset people don't talk about your precious arcade shmups
you're so transparent
>>4848778
actually, progressfag, "progression systems" are a good thing and make other games better. castlevania was made better, racing games were made better, fps was made better. your shmups would be better with levels, stats and upgrades

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:42:24 2018 No.4848789 [DELETED]

>>4848773
To me their core game mechanics are exploration (figuring out where to go, what to do) and turn based combat encounters.
Progression is shit that can and has been slapped onto almost every genre over time. These started with that but it's not really a game mechanic, just a tool for addiction and to make the game possible to absolutely trivialize so the genre has wider appeal

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:43:06 2018 No.4848792 [DELETED]

>>4848778
>nothing wrong with being an autistic retard
We can all clearly see that you stand by this.

>>4848781
>you can literally develop your skills when you play them which directly translates in how capable your character is.
Wow, it's almost like you discovered a fundamental difference between action and role playing games.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:43:26 2018 No.4848793 >>4848787 >castlevania was made better I sincerely hope you're trolling. It sure looks like it

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:45:21 2018 No.4848798 [DELETED]

>>4848792
>Wow, it's almost like you discovered a fundamental difference between action and role playing games.
Except pretty much every action game now has progress shit too? This is not what makes RPG special, it just something that started with them.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:45:56 2018 No.4848802 >>4848793 no, SOTN is legitimately the best Castlevania of all time and it's what got me into the series. ive been playing since NES and the games never grabbed me. i also loved the GBA and DS games- and im not the only one

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:46:35 2018 No.4848803 [DELETED]

>>4848792
The difference is the result of limitations of tabletop games being poorly applied to video games which was my point, don't be a brainlet. The "all games are about roleplaying" meme that you often hear brought up in discussion with RPG's has a lot of truth to it because ultimately video games allow things that tabletop RPG's could only approximate.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:47:52 2018 No.4848805 >>4848787 >actually, progressfag, "progression systems" are a good thing and make other games better Where's the argument? Try actually formulating one, you might start to see that you're wasting your time with these games.

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:48:13 2018 No.4848806 [DELETED]

>>4848802
That's called being a progressfag. It's OK if you prefer that, but don't get so triggered that some of us may think SotN is worse due to the progress unbalance that turns it into a walking simulator. You have to be a genius to figure out a fun self imposed challenge if you play that for the mechanics and not just for progress addiction or the aesthetics

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:49:32 2018 No.4848809 >>4848805 im not interested in arguing, im interested in filtering you. put on the trip

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:51:48 2018 No.4848815 >>4848809 >still thinking it's one person Funny thing is that I posted in this thread specifically because people were crying about the infamous "progressfag" criticizing their genre

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:52:54 2018 No.4848816 [DELETED]

>>4848806
you're probably not the poster who is bothering me so you're fine- i don't care about seeking out a challenge or whatever, that's not what's fun to me. trying to suggest a challenge would be irrelevant as what's fun for me is growing super powerful and mowing through dudes. there are posters who are attacking JRPGs though and it needs to stop.

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 17:53:10 2018 No.4848818 [DELETED]

>>4848803
>The difference is the result of limitations of tabletop games being poorly applied to video games which was my point
>I don't like something, that means it was poorly made from the beginning, and it should've been made the way I prefer it, please don't call me autistic that's my opinion!

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 18:11:10 2018 No.4848818,1 [INTERNAL]

>>4848816
You're talking to THAT guy you hate that much.
Shocking that some prefer challenge to progress-induced sense of power. JRPGs have some game / challenge elements to them, should not surprise you to see others preferring those elements they have and even feeling progress may undermine them. Because progress undermines challenge. See?
Also, I'm not attacking the genre. I can (could, not as much anymore) like them despite the progress stuff.

Last time I brought this up was when DQ1 wa called bad, and I replied to the thread saying that it relied too much on just pure grinding with no actual strategy or actual exploration unlike some other games.
It's easier to just REEEEEE ANTI-PROGRESS FAG to different opinions, isn't it tho?

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 18:16:24 2018 No.4848867 [DELETED]

>>4848816
You're talking to THAT guy you hate that much.
Shocking that some prefer challenge to progress-induced sense of power. JRPGs have some game / challenge elements to them, should not surprise you to see others preferring those elements they have and even feeling progress may undermine them. Because progress undermines challenge. See?
Also, I'm not attacking the genre. I can (could, not as much anymore) like them despite the progress stuff.

Last time I brought this up was when DQ1 wa called bad, and I replied to the thread saying that it relied too much on just pure grinding with no actual strategy or actual exploration unlike some other games.
It's easier to just REEEEEE ANTI-PROGRESS FAG to different opinions, isn't it tho?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 18:21:23 2018 No.4848870 >>4848867 Hating progress is so bizarre to me. Do you refuse to go to the gym so that lifting heavy things stays challenging? Do you refuse to get promoted at work so that paying bills stays challenging?

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 18:24:55 2018 No.4848879 [DELETED]

>>4848870
Are you seriously comparing training your body to grinding in JRPGs?
If anything challenge in arcade stuff and other action games is more akin to that, because it takes real effort to improve. Grinding for the sake of it (not that you need it anyway in most games) just means mash a button in a safe area to see numbers rising.
You can't just improve automatically in the gym or at work, you have to actually try.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 18:26:57 2018 No.4848883 >>4848879 So you're against it because it's easy? Some people like easy. Life is hard, games shouldn't have to be.

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 18:28:54 2018 No.4848886 [DELETED]

>>4848870
Progression systems =/= progress
Progression systems refer to artificial systems within the game itself which you simply earn by getting far enough rather than through practice, thought and skill. I don't like them because they undermine skill progression and have a lot of associated annoyances such as forcing you to waste time. It's not comparable to a job which is done out of necessity either, games are for recreation and yes I do typically drop games once they stop being challenging and consider it a flaw.

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 18:30:14 2018 No.4848889 [DELETED]

>>4848883
Not because it's easy, but because it's mindless, there's a difference.
Pressing A against mobs that can't do anything to you over and over so your character gets better isn't engaging unless you are one of the many that get addicted to progress systems.
There are plenty of easy games that are still decently engaging, stuff like Mega Man 2. Or avoiding grinding too much I guess, I was making a point

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 18:34:41 2018 No.4848898 >>4848889 RPGs aren't just pressing A over and over dude. There's decision making and resource management. Maybe you're just talking about the easy ones

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 18:35:22 2018 No.4848902 >>4848898 Yes, I know, I was talking specifically about grinding

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 18:41:42 2018 No.4848915 [DELETED]

>>4848898
It's minimal in most unfortunately, restricted to boss fights and (in harder ones) finding out a strategy for a new type of encounter. Since the games are mostly padding, you have to repeat the same simple strategy in a ton of encounters, until the games start throwing new enemies at you. Compared to turn based tactics/strategy games where each mission feels distinctly challenging, JRPG's are just a waste of time.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 18:43:28 2018 No.4848919 >>4848915 Yet they had potential as maze exploration games with strategic turn based encounters, that's the point

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 18:49:10 2018 No.4848929 Has the guy who dislikes progress in games looked into roguelikes? They may be up his alley.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 18:51:06 2018 No.4848931 >>4848929 Roguelikes still have progress system faggotry in them, however they are less casual than JRPGs due to being mostly random. So, they are better than JRPG, but still below Arcade games.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 18:52:42 2018 No.4848935 >>4848931 10/10 response

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 18:54:18 2018 No.4848937 >>4848915 Seems like the genre isn't for you then, I love all that stuff. It's super satisfying to select an option and watch your character annihilate an enemy you were too low level to defeat before.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 18:58:04 2018 No.4848943 >>4848929 I only played ADOM and Dungeons of Dredmor and they were pretty cool, though quite long per session and slow paced so I never stuck with them long enough to beat them

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 19:01:31 2018 No.4848952 [DELETED]

Okay, mods, time to chill a bit, we're talking about games here, and on-topic for retro

>>4848929
Yes, they are much more up my alley. But even them have implemented progression between each play session over the years.
>>4848937
>Seems like the genre isn't for you then, I love all that stuff. It's super satisfying to select an option and watch your character annihilate an enemy you were too low level to defeat before.
Not only I find that boring and prefer actually improving myself rather than improving the character, but I'm tired of that design style creeping into every genre overtime.

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 19:17:25 2018 No.4848980

>>4848943
If trying another ever interests you, look into Powder. It's fairly short as they go, 5-10 hours for a winning game. There is progression but it's fairly challenging and your levels partly determine which enemies spawn so trying to grind will get you killed. It's fun.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 19:26:36 2018 No.4848989 >>4848980 This is the kind of stuff JRPGs could have incorporated more

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 19:27:21 2018 No.4848990 >>4848980 This seems cool, I'll check it out

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 19:36:50 2018 No.4849009 >>4848989 Except that would be cancer

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 19:40:25 2018 No.4849016 >>4849009 Some SaGa games did stuff similar to that. I assume you either think those are cancer or have never tried them.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 19:44:05 2018 No.4849024 File: 184 KB, 1920x1080, Screenshot_2018-03-09-01-37-29.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4848990 It was originally made for GBA but is on various platforms now. It's free, but he appreciates donations if you like it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 19:47:26 2018 No.4849029 >>4849016 FFVIII had enemies that level up with you and it's the worst game in the series. What's the point of even fighting battles if you don't get any better? Might as well just run from all of them. It ruins the whole game

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 19:51:09 2018 No.4849036

>>4849029
FFVIII did a shitty job. It's time to play other JRPGs aside from the cookie cutter entries, my man. Of course FF is worse mechanically, after a point those were made to be enjoyed for their crappy cinematics with soe throwaway gameplay to pad it out for content.
Check how the ran system works in SaGa, the games aren't linear

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 19:52:11 2018 No.4849039 >>4849036 some* rank*

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 19:55:30 2018 No.4849043 >>4848989 Level scaling is pretty much bullshit, it sure doesn't do much to improve POWDER imo. Actually enemy spawns are somewhat affected by level in most roguelikes, it's just really noticeable in POWDER.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 20:10:22 2018 No.4849062 >>4849029 The enemies didn't get that much stronger, and they had new and better magic to draw. By level 100, you can faceroll everything in that game by equiping pain, sleep, and death to your character's attacks.

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 20:29:17 2018 No.4849096

>>4848094
FFV is a treasure trove of amazing exploits that makes any build viable with enough creativity.

Jobless build's strength is that it can use any armor, weapon, and accessory.
That makes you hang on to even weak early-game weapons like Mage Masher, or Doom Axe so you have access to their unique abilities.

Like, whips, which are the WORST weapon in the game besides bells and harps even become a star for several hours because the first whip you get from Magisa paralyzes enemies on hit (this is well before you even get a job that can normally use a whip.)

Even harps are useful since they do percentage based damage, you can open a fight with them on non-heavy bosses to deal surprising spike damage in your first attack.

Also, one of them is sleep on hit, and another has confuse.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 23:15:08 2018 No.4849386 >>4844368 i've gotten bored with 90% of games, too, but I let uncreative twits have their fun which I envy.

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 23:27:10 2018 No.4849412

What is with JRPGs being the main genre that attracts angry neckbeards to rag on them and derail threads. Like for the people who care so much about "le gaming skill XD" who gives a shit. It's a fucking game. If you want a challenge go succeed at something irl

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 23:29:15 2018 No.4849416 >>4848119 Is that final boss?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 23:29:54 2018 No.4849418 >>4849412 Visual novels are far less of a game than JRPGs are and yet they don't get shit on half as hard here. Take that as you will.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 23:35:23 2018 No.4849432 >>4849418 The complainers are probably barely aware of what a visual novel is

Anonymous Tue Jun 19 23:36:31 2018 No.4849439

>>4849412
What's the point of even playing games if you don't like challenge? They're problem solving at their core, optimized for fun. If you want a passive medium there are plenty of those. Could just watch a film or anime if you want weeb shit. Also to me RPG's are bad but not unsalvageable as they still have some unique aspects other genres don't explore. It's not like walking sims, criticizing those isn't any fun because they're so barebones.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 19 23:42:34 2018 No.4849459 >>4849418 That's exactly why they don't get shit, they're not games and don't even really try to be besides the odd one bundled together with a puzzle game or some shit

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 02:22:35 2018 No.4849680 >>4849439 Because I like pressing buttons and minimal active interaction while reading a good story. That's literally it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 02:23:56 2018 No.4849682 >>4849418 >>4849432 VNs aren't constantly called "masterpieces" or "best games ever" or spammed everywhere on /vr/, just a thought >>4849439 Exactly, games = challenge. A fun distraction

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 02:26:22 2018 No.4849685 >>4849680 You JRPGfags surely are modern gamers, holy shit I've always said this place was full of people that are more into newer style o games an come to /vr/ to discuss the most modern-feeling older games. At least someone here is admitting it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 02:30:19 2018 No.4849691 >>4849439 >They're problem solving at their core, optimized for fun >>4848063 >>4849096 Like this? Or excuse me, what that poster describes is obviously a mindless button mashing, because you're an autistic cunt.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 02:31:54 2018 No.4849694 >>4849691 He's not denying JRPGs have some challenge to them (even if they're one of the lowest genres in that regard), just arguing that games are about the challenge inherently

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 02:34:21 2018 No.4849696 >>4849412 Also, you have to remember that said derailment can only happen if one side feels attacked. JRPGfags seem to be very insecure about their tastes.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 02:41:38 2018 No.4849704 >>4849691 Yes the games are fine when they are being challenging but this is restricted to bosses, and usually specific ones at that. I talked about this before but the mod deleted my posts so good job there I guess

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 04:11:47 2018 No.4849769

It seems some of you finally get it and admit it:
A progressfag is someone that prefers character progression to player progression (that is, prefers seeing the character improve rather tham himself), thus someone less into challenge.
This is fine, variety in games is cool. But that's the issue: progression has become the standard in games, there's no longer variety in that sense since devs figured out that more people were into character progress rather than their own progress in games.
Also, some of us wish some of the elements of JRPGs were made in games without progression, as it happened with other genres before progression ate the industry.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 06:53:36 2018 No.4849902 >>4849769 >progression ate the industry.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 07:01:17 2018 No.4849910 >>4849902 Yes, almost every game release now has some sort of progress system, whereas back then you could choose between a large number of either progress-based games or more arcadey experiences

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 07:04:16 2018 No.4849914 >>4849910 I just think it's funny. You bitch about the responses get here and how everyone else must be insrcure but the whole time you're whining that the entire industry died on you. It's a good time.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 07:31:45 2018 No.4849935 >>4849914 It hasn't been easy for players with my tastes lately. We can always fall back on the classics at least

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 07:36:38 2018 No.4849939 The main frustration comes from seeing how even a board called "retro games" is filled with people that mainly prefer the old games that feel the most like new ones instead of games with truly old school design

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 07:37:25 2018 No.4849941 >>4849935 >It hasn't been easy for players with my tastes lately. TOP KEK

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 07:40:03 2018 No.4849943 >>4849941 Keep reading Also, even most guys enjoying some guys precisely from a modern perspective

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 07:42:22 2018 No.4849946 >>4849943 >guys enjoying some guys Now that's hilarious. Meant games, obv

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 07:48:47 2018 No.4849950

>>4849943
I read everything you said, you're just proving >>4849914 right and you don't seem cognizant of it or you don't care. Then you pull this "woe to be me" line and the sheer pomposity of it is fucking hysterical. Thanks for the laughs, bozo, dead serious. You made my day.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 07:50:34 2018 No.4849954 >>4849950 Imagine trying to play new releases without any progress system. And they also have to be at least decent. Try and you'll see it's frustrating if you want to avoid that kind of "mechanic" in your games.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 07:54:04 2018 No.4849958 >>4849954 You seem to have mistaken me for someone who cares about your arguments and opinions. I'm just here to laugh at the dumb shit you say.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 07:56:09 2018 No.4849959

>>4849958
>dumb shit
My point is that progress is fucking everywhere now, and people that dislike it can't escape it unless they go play older games. You may think I'm dumb for disliking progress, but this is a valid point.
Then you come to a retro game board and it's full of progressfaggotry as well.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 08:02:55 2018 No.4849969 >>4849959 >wherein the boogeyman gets boogeymen'd Keep going, this was the funniest post so far.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 08:05:16 2018 No.4849974

>>4849969
Boogeyman my ass, that progress is everywhere in games now is a fact.
My next point is somewhat more arguable, but it definitely feels like this place worships JRPGs and progression in particular. They come from the modern perspective and then gravitate to the older games that feel like modern ones.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 08:13:53 2018 No.4849981 >>4844382 >>4844449 >>4844723 >>4844823 >>4846138 >>4846143 >>4846356 >>4846843 >>4847947 >>4848119 only 10 on topic posts out of 166.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 08:22:25 2018 No.4849994 >>4849981 All due to >>4844394

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 08:24:13 2018 No.4849996

>>4849974
>they come from the modern perspective
nigga I'm 34. I've been playing games since NES. I don't even like most modern games, JRPGs aren't what they used to be and western games were never good. I just knew that when I played FF3 on SNES for the first time that this was the game for me and I wanted more like it. Quit assuming that we're /v/ kids, it's really pretentious.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 08:29:39 2018 No.4850003 >>4849996 FF3 on SNES has A LOT in common with newer games.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 08:33:49 2018 No.4850012 >>4849996 >>4850003 Just in case you don't know where I'm coming from: 1. Progress systems 2. Lack of challenge 3. Focus on the narrative Aside from the random turn based combat and the 2D graphics it's pretty much your typical modern game.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 08:38:40 2018 No.4850016 >>4850003 Sure, but shit like this >>4849685 is just sickening. We're not "modern gamers" out to ruin your last bastion of elite hardcore arcade gameplay, jackass

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 08:40:46 2018 No.4850017 >>4850016 >We're not "modern gamers" out to ruin your last bastion of elite hardcore arcade gameplay, jackass By flooding a retro board with games that are like modern ones you're effectively doing this. Most arcade players have migrated afaik

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 08:46:10 2018 No.4850023

>>4850012
The story, setting and characters are way better than what's out now. There's no waifufaggotry, no bad voice acting and no DLC. People like retro games for different reasons asshole

>>4850017
So, what, you feel persecuted because people discuss things they enjoy and feel you need to exact revenge by shitting up the board with posts like this >>4844368 ?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 08:52:59 2018 No.4850029 >>4850023 That post isn't mine btw, there have been others on my side. In fact for most of the thread I've been absent. >The story, setting and characters >People like retro games for different reasons >GAMES Those aren't game mechanics, my man. Anyway

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 09:30:11 2018 No.4850074

Anyway, this shitstorm was caused by the first post, then others getting triggered because they thought it was me, then others called you paranoids for thinking all criticism comes from one anon, etc.
I wouldn't have posted later if it weren't for that.

I'll make things clear:
Imagine you're mainly into gameplay, arcadey stuff, etc. and go to a community called Retro Games, which was a time where those games flourished.
First you see there's a lack of that (no scoring threads, barely any gameplay discussion, a lot of muh plot, console wars...) but shrug it off and make your own threads. Then you see this community isn't interested in them, and instead participates in some of the countless JRPG threads to talk about game mechanics (because I've played a lot in the past, and for that). It barely works, and then some of the times I've mentioned progression on-topic to describe a game I'm not fond off due to an excessive reliance on that (see: Q1), the triggering started.
I promised in that thread to never bring this stuff up again myself and leave you guys with your particular community, to have fun.
However, some of you have become paranoid and are butthurt due to my positions.

I ask you to not bring this stuff up. Really, I won't. If anyone else posts something similar (particularly in a confrontational way), assume he's falseflagging. ITT progression wasn't even mentioned when some of you started with the "progressfag" witch hunt. Next time try to avoid this.
As a proof, do you see me posting about this progress stuff in any other thread? That's right. So STFU, stop being so butthurt and take criticism well (not mine, but from other anons like the first post).

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 09:33:58 2018 No.4850080 >>4850074 meant DQ1 instead of Q1

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 09:43:52 2018 No.4850091

>>4850074
No one is interested in your threads because you never post anything interesting. I've seen you post extremely generic shooting game threads with nothing interesting in the OP, and then three posts later you start crying about "JRPGfags". Anyone with half a brain would be aware that we have had and still do have several active arcade threads here, including some in the catalog right now. Threads where people are actually talking about games they're playing. You never do this. I have never seen you say anything specific about a game at all, just this stupid meta shit and your obnoxious fixation with variants of the word "progress". Try having something interesting to share first before you start crusading against people who play The Wrong Video Games.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 09:50:50 2018 No.4850108

>>4850091
>I have never seen you say anything specific about a game at all
The current Shmup General is mine and it starts with a question about Armed Police Batrider's mechanics. You think I only post about progress, but that's not true. You only notice me when I do that. Welcome to anonymous boards.
This thread is mine and it's very detailed
>>/vr/thread/S4572230
Over time I became tired and put less effort into the OPs since it didn't matter.
Some weeks ago I made this RPG general as a joke without putting any effort nor supporting the thread instead >>/vr/thread/S4818276
Again, I could go on and you could accuse me of cherrypicking, but believe me, I'm not saying this for nothing. No reason to make a huge post with examples

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 09:55:03 2018 No.4850116

>>4850108
Ok, then if you are capable of making good threads, then why post the "progress" crap at all? If you're shitposting then I guess I can't stop you, but I seriously hope you aren't legitimately distressed by people talking about other kinds of games.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 09:58:09 2018 No.4850120

>>4850116
It's because I'm not really shitposting. But don't worry, I won't bring this stuff up anymore. I promised and I've stayed true to my words, aside from this shitshow but I'm here just to try to clean something that wasn't started by me but it was caused by my posts in previous threads.
>but I seriously hope you aren't legitimately distressed by people talking about other kinds of games.
It's the opposite, not finding people that enjoy games the way I do these days anymore.

Again, just let this go. I swear, I don't want to shit your place up, I just thought the progression stuff was sufficiently on-topic.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 09:58:52 2018 No.4850121 >>4850074 >falseflagging Yeah there likely are shitposters who see this current argument as an opportunity to stir shit up. Noted

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 10:12:06 2018 No.4850138 >>4850121 It's almost exactly what happened. Be wary of them.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 10:17:24 2018 No.4850143 File: 167 KB, 400x150, sherm521.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4849935 Well, your bitching is funny to me. :)

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 10:23:29 2018 No.4850153
File: 6 KB, 256x224, IMG_3878.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

It may be a bit of a meme answer, but I was always blown away by the Giygas battle in Earthbound. I'm probably biased because it's the only JRPG I've ever beaten, but the mechanics and presentation of that battle always stuck with me. The music being rad as hell in the first phase certainly helped.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 10:23:29 2018 No.4850154

>>4850143
Sorry If you'll miss it. You must've noticed that I hadn't mentioned the progress stuff for like 3-4 months at all yet when I brought it back when I considered it extremely on topic the backlash was real.
This time is permanent, though. No discussion about progression at all. In fact I won't even participate if the topic itself is brought up by others.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 10:24:00 2018 No.4850156 >>4850074 >So STFU, stop being so butthurt and take criticism >I'm not shitposting reeeeeeeally!

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 10:27:24 2018 No.4850163 >>4850154 Don't worry, you're always funny. Like I said before, it's your attitude not your content. Even when I might agree you make everything sound ridiculous.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 10:30:39 2018 No.4850169

Progresstard here. I'll post another one of these, even if I have already
This one isn't super special, but I'll always remember the first time I beat it (back then I hadn't played that many of these or had much experience). Such tension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_dljzt0BAs

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 10:31:42 2018 No.4850171 >>4850156 >(not mine, but from other anons like the first post)

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 10:31:43 2018 No.4850172 File: 100 KB, 760x800, giegue.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4850153 nothin' wrong with giygas, he's probably the most interesting nintendo villain after vaati

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 10:47:16 2018 No.4850198 >>4850171 Which you now need to point out....

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 10:49:34 2018 No.4850204 >>4850198 Not now, read the post you were quoting.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 11:34:50 2018 No.4850252 >>4850204 I did.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 11:46:43 2018 No.4850273 These are fucking awesome. The first one not so much as the game is still a bit too easy then, though its blue pattern is quite cool for a first boss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDpT4W2mFSs

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 12:03:56 2018 No.4850308 [DELETED]

File: 71 KB, 634x386, wowie kazowie.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>4846798
I didn't like the bits of DS I played, but that is why Monster Hunter is among my favorite series. There is always new equipment to strive for, but it's all for ancillary skills or small bonuses. The game itself is all about skill and even in the best armor you can die in a matter of seconds if you suck, or win playing naked if you're skilled enough.

It also has one of my favorite last boss fights, for which the reward is pretty much just someone saying "wowie kazowie"

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 12:06:16 2018 No.4850314 [DELETED]

File: 174 KB, 700x446, DSCF6548copy_zps0881c003.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>4850308
Dragon's Dogma on the other hand is an example of a game with a ton of promise being all but ruined in the end by it's leveling system. You get so powerful so quickly that many mobs were only ever a challenge in their first encounter unless you took great lengths to challenge yourself.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 12:10:26 2018 No.4850324 >>4850314 Dragon's Dogma is a mistake desu, BBI is the worst about this shit you either grind to level up your gear and make bosses easy or enjoy 30 min-hour long fights with bosses that have 5 simple moves because your damage output is total shit

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 12:28:01 2018 No.4850356 >>4850171 So this >>4850074 was really all an elaborate falseflag?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 12:37:19 2018 No.4850372 >>4850356 Yes. So please stop

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 12:46:14 2018 No.4850386 >>4850372 That's grand. Progress really fucked you guys over eh?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 12:50:16 2018 No.4850395 >>4850386 I'm the one critical of progress that brought this up in the first place. Yes, the backlash has been huge, it's why I'm stopping, no reason to bother the community

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 12:55:57 2018 No.4850408 >>4850395 You have to admit that people writing long in depth posts false flagging your attitude is kind of comical though.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 13:00:21 2018 No.4850418 >>4850408 Maybe to you, but the massive triggering and butthurt ITT doesn't seem to indicate that

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 13:09:23 2018 No.4850438

>>4849704
There are plenty of challenging non-boss encounters in FFV.
Prototype, Skull Eaters, Gakimasra, Gil Turtle, etc.

Also, some things are more or less challenging depending on your tools and what jobs you're using.

Fighting undead while only having Doom Axes or Drain weapons in your inventory is a challenge, since they will revive and full-heal undead on hit, and drain's effect is reversed.

JRPGs emphasize player freedom to determine the challenge level of the game.
You can either grind, or learn the mechanics of the game to survive.

What you choose says more about you than it does the game.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 13:15:16 2018 No.4850454 >>4850418 I suppose it depends in your idea of fun. It's all seemed like that to me. This whole thread has been a goldmine.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 13:23:26 2018 No.4850480 >>4850454 They clearly want me out, so I don't think you're right. Except you, I guess you have fun Now for a non-arcade game: the last stage (final boss, essentially) of Sigma in X1 with no upgrades and buster only is fucking intense

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 13:25:40 2018 No.4850490

>>4850438
You can make any game challenging if you wish, it's a waste of time though since you can simply play a tactics game and get all challenge with no filler. Better challenge too, because JRPG's are all about figuring out a simple strategy and repeating it throughout the fight with no variation outside of some RNG, tactics games have way more variety and things like interactivity with the environment

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 13:32:28 2018 No.4850519 >>4850490 This. The joy of actually engaging games is something that ones that depend on self-imposed stuff can't hope to achieve

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 13:35:31 2018 No.4850532 >>4850490 Oh and another thing, SOME encounters are challenging but the vast majority are not. If all encounters were on par with the tougher boss fights the genre would be much, much better.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 13:50:59 2018 No.4850574

>>4850532
Better as in more fun when succeeding, sure. But not better overall.

Challenge and difficulty alone aren't enough to KEEP most people interested in things.
What you're suggesting is throwing countless challenges in the player's face, while essentially removing the learning curve and treadmill that keeps people playing until the end, which would shake most people off long before then.

There are series for masochistic challenge fetishists. That's fine. But they're not inherently better for it. They're just targeting a different type of pleasure. One that's quite a risk to target financially, due to heavy reliance on a tight balance of difficulty versus feasibility.
A comfort zone learning time sort of experience helps alleviate that problem by letting people get used to the systems and invested in the games.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 13:55:09 2018 No.4850580 >>4850574 Caring about what "most people" want instead of making good games for different people is cancer

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 13:55:32 2018 No.4850581 >>4850532 This is why Etrian Odyssey has killed so many other rpgs for me. Once you play one that's like that it's hard to go back.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 13:56:45 2018 No.4850582 >>4850574 Also, games don't hurt you, calling challenge masochistic just because you dislike it is retarded

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 13:58:28 2018 No.4850585

>>4850574
It's only partly to do with challenge and it doesn't necessarily require getting rid of grinding and such. What it's actually about is crafting unique engaging fights instead of padding out games with the same tired random encounters you already know how to deal with, and possibly internally encouraging challenge runs like TWEWY because otherwise this isn't game design, it's just throwing a bunch of shit at the wall and letting players figure out what sticks themselves. I already said I'm not against all forms of progressions, you're confusing me with the other guy. I'm fine with things like introducing different characters and abilities slowly over time, that can be a method of making unique challenges anyway not just used as a form of introduction. It's just the lazy over-emphasis on progression to cover up padding that's obnoxious. Also ultimately I don't really care how you enjoy your games since it's none of my business, I just find it fun to talk about these things.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 13:59:12 2018 No.4850587 >>4850580 But if you're running a business making games and you want to be most successful then wouldn't making the kinds of games most people want to play be wise?

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:00:44 2018 No.4850590

>>4850581
Watch out, the mod's going to get you. I feel the same way about EO and to a lesser extent Strange Journey, they put way more unique encounters in the games AND make dungeon navigation more challenging similar to western RPG's. Legend of Grimrock is very cool too.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:01:07 2018 No.4850591

>>4850587
No shit, but this doesn't result in the best product, otherwise stuff like Pokémon Go is a masterpiece and lesser known amazing games suck just because they're for a niche.

Markets are at its best when every company tries to make something for a different niche, instead of every company trying to sell the same safe stuff.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:06:10 2018 No.4850604

>>4850580
Sure it's cancer. Because it grows incredibly large. Because it works.
Targeting the mindset of improving how things work as you go while staying in a comfort zone to learn to do so is simply smart business sense.
>>4850582
You misunderstand me. I don't mean it negatively, as I am quite masochistic myself. You do need to be able to enjoy negative feedback when faced with challenges to enjoy such things.
>>4850585
I agree there, padding is never good. Grinding should generally be replaced with exploration, side tasks, quests, or skill. Exploration is my favourite of those.
But they generally have to leave some form of grinding in as an easy mode that players can opt to throw time at instead of skill. Thankfully that's avoidable entirely in 90% of content (MMOs aside, of course).

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:08:34 2018 No.4850606 >>4850604 >Sure it's cancer. Because it grows incredibly large. Because it works. >Targeting the mindset of improving how things work as you go while staying in a comfort zone to learn to do so is simply smart business sense. >>4850591

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:10:53 2018 No.4850612

>>4850120
>It's because I'm not really shitposting.
If this is you: >>4844368
You are fucking shitposting. Just own it. I don't even care. If you dish it, be ready to take it. Why is that so hard to understand? If you want to offer "criticism" in such a lazy and confrontational way, don't cry like a pissy little bitch when the reaction is equally lazy and confrontational.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:10:59 2018 No.4850613

>>4850591 >>4850606
Markets are at their best when they allow a vast, scaling variety of things for all ranges. Again, there are series for masochistic challenge fetishists. Because the market is vast enough to allow them. But they're not the norm because they're so uncomfortable to the majority. That is not a problem.
Stick to Sturgeon's law and focus strictly on the 10%, or the 10% of the 10%, that actually engages you in the way you want.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:11:02 2018 No.4850614

>>4850574
This. Getting good in Street Fighter and Dark Souls was a slog. The feeling of finally being able to beat the people who would call me noob or that annoying boss was great, and the game became fun once I could stomp on people I deemed bad guys. The actual process of developing skill though? Total misery. The only way to make it fun is to do it with friends or be on some sort of controlled substance. JRPGs are waaaay more comfortable - you get that feeling of growing powerful and stomping your enemies without having to suffer.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:13:13 2018 No.4850618 >>4850612 Not me. Why do you think I made a huge post indicating this was all a falseflag shitfest?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:14:28 2018 No.4850624 >>4850591 I guess it depends on how you define what makes a good product. Something popular, or something less popular but more regarded by a niche audience.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:14:42 2018 No.4850625

>>4850614
I disagree that it's the feeling of growing powerful. Rather, it's the feeling of making something ELSE powerful. A teacher's pleasure, if you will.
Directing and controlling how something else grows in such a way that it's capable of the tasks you direct it to do. Then watching that thing work beautifully as it does so.

I think that's what makes boss fights so pleasant. It's not actually being strong, but rather making something that starts so weak become strong and capable.
It's a completely separate pleasure from skill.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:16:07 2018 No.4850630 >>4850613 >>4850614 >series for masochistic challenge fetishists >without having to suffer It's called not actually enjoying challenge. Not everyone has to, but it's not painful if you actually are into that. Challenge is fun for humans too

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:16:28 2018 No.4850631

>>4850614
Multiplayer games particularly older ones are different in that they have no difficulty curve to speak of, it's up to you to figure out how to learn them without getting too frustrated and there is no guarantee that you won't get your shit pushed in by far better players all the time until you learn. Singleplayer genres aren't like this, they all have hand crafted challenge and smooth difficulty curves, that's why they're fun as fuck to learn.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:17:00 2018 No.4850635 >>4850590 I really should try grimrock soon. Playing smt4 now which isn't terrible at least. Like SJ it's a little easy, but keeping me going.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:18:49 2018 No.4850640 >>4850631 This is why multiplayer has always appealed more.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:19:47 2018 No.4850643 Wow 223 posts, you guys must be really excited about final bos....wait.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:20:24 2018 No.4850646

>>4850630
Challenge is fun because it's suffering. It is a constant roadblock with promise of success through effort. Promise of reward is frequently a stronger motivator than reward itself.
It is painful, objectively. The pleasure just overrides that. Same as any other physical pain or emotional pain. It's overcoming the suffering.
That IS fun for humans. Not 'humans too', specifically for humans primarily.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:22:09 2018 No.4850650 >>4850643 What are your thoughts on these bosses? >>4850273 >>4850646 >Challenge is fun because it's suffering. Okay, I don't experience challenge this way at all but whatever

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:22:36 2018 No.4850651 >>4850640 Team shit and progression systems are chipping away at those too though

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:23:40 2018 No.4850656 >>4850651 >progression systems Please don't bring up that stuff, doesn't matter that you may be right

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:24:38 2018 No.4850657

>>4850646
Sure the reward is nice, but is it worth it? Most of the time, no. If a single-player game is too frustrating I'll just drop it. I still haven't beat level 3 in Alien Soldier, and I haven't beat any Shinobi game. If a game is multiplayer, though, well that gives me a reason to keep trying beyond some promise of reward. The social aspect diminishes the suffering.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:26:39 2018 No.4850661 >>4850656 It's funny how much asshurt this causes on /vr/, I had people calling me a retard and telling me to kill myself because I mentioned progression systems in other, unrelated threads even though I never posted in RPG ones

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:28:48 2018 No.4850665 >>4850661 I'm not the only one I know, but this is like their most sensitive subject for whatever reason

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:29:20 2018 No.4850667 File: 836 KB, 444x250, DefensiveDenseHoiho-max-1mb.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4850651 Neh, I am okay playing on teams as well.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:29:26 2018 No.4850668

>>4850657
That's how it usually is, yeah. There needs to be some distraction (Comfort zone, audiovisuals) or separate motivator (Social aspect, promise of reward).
Because again, challenge and difficulty alone aren't enough to KEEP most people interested in things.
They're great for raising tension and reinforcing already existing motivation, but not good for spawning motivation itself.
They don't inherently make things better by their own merit alone. JUST a hard game is JUST a shitty game.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:32:06 2018 No.4850673

>>4850668
A game with 0 challenge isn't a game anymore, so I don't know what you're talking about
"They're great for raising tension and reinforcing already existing motivation"
There is no motivation at all without challenge, it's the foundation. Otherwise these are just walking simulators to see pretty sceneries or something, not games.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:32:16 2018 No.4850674 >>4850668 Conversely, JUST an easy game is also JUST a shitty game. Both are actually kind of rare. There's more than difficulty, progression, or skill.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:32:24 2018 No.4850675 >>4850667 I hate team based shit because the matches take ages and it gets in the way of the skill based nature of the games along with shifting the focus away from mind games, only fun for casual play with friends

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:33:51 2018 No.4850679 >>4844823 I never actually finished that game. It looks like there's a Wonderswan color version with higher resolution, color, and also a full translation.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:33:54 2018 No.4850680

>>4850661
Not him, but when you bring it up so often and always complaining that it's ruining everything what do you expect? I reply to something mentioning it's why I like multiplayer games and you feel the burning need to bring up that you think progression is ruining those too. Come on man, no wonder you get so much shit.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:34:26 2018 No.4850684 >>4850675 Matchmaking kills those games, among other things I won't mention

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:35:28 2018 No.4850685 >>4850680 Do you realize you're talking to a different anon?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:35:32 2018 No.4850686 File: 257 KB, 304x224, OrochiLeona1.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4850675 That's nice. You hate a lot, It's entertaining.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:36:31 2018 No.4850691 >>4850686 Different anon, bud

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:37:46 2018 No.4850694 >>4850673 >games without challenge aren't games Factually incorrect

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:38:28 2018 No.4850695

>>4850668
Challenge inherently has its own reward which is overcoming it, this can be demonstrated even on a neurological level. It's just a question of whether you find the reward appropriate for the type and level of challenge you're presented, if you don't then you get frustrated.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:39:02 2018 No.4850697 File: 285 KB, 364x337, Arle9.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4850490 >play a tactics game and get all challenge with no filler

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:39:37 2018 No.4850698 >>4850675 I hate team based games because I can't get along with other people

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:40:00 2018 No.4850701 >>4850694 It is pretty spot on actually, games are a set of rules and goals (usually enforced with win/loss states), some degree of challenge is inherent, can't really get around it.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:42:21 2018 No.4850706

>>4850673
Customization, strategy (Even simple unchallenging strategy), and progression itself are plenty motivation. Natural motivation even.
Hell, the whole problem with MMOs is that they're nothing but self feeding motivation without anything else. Which also makes them JUST shitty games.
>>4850695
Yeah, challenge has its own reward, but not really the same sort of motivation. KNOWING that reward and using it as a motivator is a learned trait, and one most people don't learn early on.
Suffering is only a motivator to get over that suffering, of which simply quitting out of frustration is indeed an appropriate response. And the most difficult one to avoid when preventing a challenge.
Hence the need for distraction or separate motivators.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:43:48 2018 No.4850709

>>4850604
I agree on padding, too. However, what is "grinding" to some is experimentation and practice to someone else. If you pick up a new ability or item, you might want some time to try it out and test it's capabilities in a low-risk situation before you go diving deep into the next dungeon. Not that every game has to be designed that way, but being able to initiate random (grind-style) encounters enables it.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:43:51 2018 No.4850710

>>4850695
Exactly. People like me don't get frustrated with challenging games, but most people do. Doesn't mean it's masochistic.
>>4850701
Yes. But since video "games" have incorporated some other entertainment software into the medium, some people can't grasp what a game is anymore.
It's about the rules and mechanics.
I've used this example before:
Kicking a ball around at your leisure can be entertaining, but it's not a game. Once you abide by some rules as you explain and play say a soccer match, that becomes a game.
>>4850706
>Customization, strategy (Even simple unchallenging strategy), and progression itself are plenty motivation. Natural motivation even.
Well, that sounds like more than 0 challenge, isn't it?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:43:54 2018 No.4850712 >>4850706 *presenting a challenge

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:46:19 2018 No.4850716 >>4850706 >MMOs are shitty games I dunno dude, creating my OC is pretty awesome. That's half the fun of Skyrim, just dressing up my character

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:47:48 2018 No.4850718

>>4850706
Nonsense, human beings are naturally prone to seek out patterns and solve problems. Again on a neurological level our brains reward us for this behaviour, it's even why a lot of gambling works. A learned trait would be to persist when the challenge becomes overwhelming, but challenge is a spectrum and minimal amounts of it are motivating by themselves, it's why people can get enjoyment out of solving simple crossword puzzles. There is no distractions or content there, it's just basic human problem solving.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:50:42 2018 No.4850728

Ay yo that's interesting and all but can we get back to talking about ma nigga Exdeath I knew that muhfugga back when he a twig gettin excited cuz he first leaf came in
I aksed him what he wanted to do you know in life and sheeit and he was like "Send all into the Void!" dude was crazy

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:51:11 2018 No.4850730 >>4850718 Yeah, that's natural too. Until you ramp up the difficulty and require that learned trait. Which makes things difficult to balance and harder to market.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:53:32 2018 No.4850735 >>4850716 >I dunno dude, creating my OC is pretty awesome. That's half the fun of Skyrim, just dressing up my character 3D dolls, eh?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:54:53 2018 No.4850738 >>4850735 Yeah. Then after that you have a fun time with the Role Playing aspect of the Game. Just like moving dolls around in a house and building a story.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:55:55 2018 No.4850742 >>4850735 Yes. Is that not a game?

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:56:56 2018 No.4850745

It's different. Don't confuse entertainment with games.
Read this example: >>4850710
>Kicking a ball around at your leisure can be entertaining, but it's not a game. Once you abide by some rules as you explain and play say a soccer match, that becomes a game.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 14:59:29 2018 No.4850749 >>4850745 So LARP is not a game?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:03:47 2018 No.4850753 >>4850749 It's spontaneous theatrics. I'm not saying this isn't entertaining or fun, just not a game. Has no set rules or goals. Unless the LARP is set up like that I guess, which would be weird

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:03:57 2018 No.4850756

>>4850710
A game is any activity requiring skill (Including endurance, JRPGs woohoo!), and adherence to a set of rules.
>>4850749
LARP refers strictly to Live Action roleplaying. It's just roleplaying.
In dolls, the set of rules may be vague or unarticulated, but they still exist. Playing outside of those rules will make others not want to play with you, or you yourself not want to play, ending the game.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:05:32 2018 No.4850758 >>4850756 JRPGs are games, no one argued against that You're stretching the definition too much with the doll stuff tho, at that point every activity is a game

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:07:42 2018 No.4850761

>>4850673
>A game with 0 challenge isn't a game anymore, so I don't know what you're talking about
There's a big range between "0 challenge" and lots of challenge. Also, "challenge" is actually a sum total of a variety of different features that interact with each other such as:

1. Element of risk
2. Failure consequences (stakes)
3. Number of mistakes allowed
4. Depth and Complexity.
5. Rigidity of success requirements
6. Player limitations.
7. Mechanics rewarding creativity.
8. Mechanics rewarding observation and analysis.
9. Mechanics rewarding tactical decision-making (both reactive and proactive)
10. Mechanics rewarding planning and preparation
11. Mechanics rewarding precision muscle memory and pattern memorization
12. Mechanics rewarding raw speed.

For example, rounding up chickens in Ocarina of Time has no risk whatsoever and an unlimited number of mistakes are allowed. There is no failure state, just incomplete or not. But the success requirements are actually very rigid, there is only one solution to the puzzle: you must find and obtain all the chickens and put them in the pen. This puzzle requires some observation, finding the chickens and sometimes figuring out how to maneuver in the 3D environment to obtain them.

No one would say this is particularly hard, but does it really count as "0 challenge?" I don't really enjoy it, but I understand why others might. I prefer my challenges to at least have some risk and something at stake, even if the risk of a game over is rather slim.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:08:32 2018 No.4850763

>>4850758
Well, every activity with rules and a quantifiable outcome, yes. The term is wide in usage.
On the contrary, limiting it to just that definition of strictly defined rules and challenge is incredibly unusual. Children make and play games long before they learn to agree upon or articulate rules (Thanks Jean Piaget)

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:09:43 2018 No.4850765 >>4850761 No one is arguing the chicken stuff isn't a challenge, just that it's not very challenging. And some prefer more challenging games >>4850763 Is work a game too? That definition is way too wide, it becomes meaningless

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:12:23 2018 No.4850770

>>4850765
Work can be a game, yes. Life is a vast set of games.
It's not meaningless. It's generally a term for something you choose to interact with, which you can affect the outcome based on the rules, however unclear they may be. That, as a term, has extensive value in all its uses.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:12:31 2018 No.4850771 >>4850763 This is true, natural games usually have unspoken rules while games as a creative medium is all about formalizing it. Though I wouldn't call dolls games, dolls are toys which you make games with.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:13:42 2018 No.4850774 >>4850765 >is work a game? It can be if you enjoy it. Some people are REALLY into sales

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:15:22 2018 No.4850778 To me engaging with an actual game in the strict sense feels very different and distinct, but wtvr

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:15:26 2018 No.4850779 >>4850771 Fair enough. Though 'playing dolls' is indeed a game itself; the game of making games with such tools. Which is a far more valid and fun game than most RPGs IF you can actually keep it going.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:15:33 2018 No.4850780 >>4850770 >>4850765 Games often serve as a model or metaphor to understand work and other real-life scenarios where the only rules are determined by nature and society.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:19:43 2018 No.4850784 >>4850779 This is why RPG Maker is such an awesome game

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:20:50 2018 No.4850786

>>4850780
Yeah, and it works because work and other real-life scenarios are also games.
Of course they're shitty games with fluid rules, that's a given. But they're still games.
And they're games with some of the worst BOSSES ever. Like by golly I couldn't create anything below those stupid shits; challenge is inconsistent, reward is often slim and underplayed, very little actual thought goes into planning in most cases. My gosh.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:22:12 2018 No.4850790 >>4850786 Hilarious, actually

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:23:34 2018 No.4850791

>>4844449
I got to the second disc, realized I hadn't prepared properly, realized that it was pretty much all Gear fights, and nope'd out. I want to return to it with more knowledge.

As to choice, >>4844823
At least SaGa1 had the balls to say you were fighting God.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:24:51 2018 No.4850794

>>4850779
There is an important distinction between whether something IS a game, or whether something CAN BE a game. If you say something IS a game, it implies that it's a game in the formal sense and that the rules and goals are inherent to it such as in a traditional game or a video game. If you say something CAN BE a game, you're suggesting that there is nothing inherently game-like in the object in question, and the game is enforced on it by the person interacting with it. This is a distinction that people often fail to make which leads to a lot of confusing poo flinging. "Playing dolls" can be a game if you wish to make it one, but otherwise it's simply an activity that could just as well be aimless fiddling to occupy your hands when you're thinking about something else.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:24:58 2018 No.4850795 >>4850784 I remember playing that frequently on PS1. Guess the English version isn't /vr/ since it launched Oct2000 though. Oh well.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:28:23 2018 No.4850803 >>4850794 This guy gets it

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:33:16 2018 No.4850809

>>4850794
Oh absolutely. But the fact that it can be a game indeed does make it a game if you do play it as such.
The ability to ignore the rules and ditch the game turning it into something else is certainly notable.

You can even play, say, fighting games, ignoring all rules and stumbling around aimlessly. That's not playing a game, it's playing around within a game system. But that doesn't make the game itself not a game.
Context is incredibly important. When 'game' is specifically referred to, the speaker is talking about the 'game', rather than the other potential activities.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:39:00 2018 No.4850819

>>4850809
>But the fact that it can be a game indeed does make it a game if you do play it as such.
This "logic" can make some brains explode, fuck
If it CAN be a game, that means it can also NOT be one. You can turn anything into a game apparently, but the set rules themselves are the game.
>You can even play, say, fighting games, ignoring all rules and stumbling around aimlessly.
You can't, you either win or lose, that's just sucking at the game. I guess you mean doing random inputs in training modes?

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:42:11 2018 No.4850823

>>4850795
>video games on PLATFORMS launched in 1999 and earlier
Nevermind. Woohoo!
I remember making a tentacle boss thing with Cthulhu in mind and making it actually impossible to kill without the kamikaze magic spell. Kind of like that boss in the Welcome to the NHK novel. To prove some point just the same.
Thinking about it that was my favorite boss. But I lost the memory card with the saves on it, so blah.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:46:34 2018 No.4850830

>>4850819
English itself can make some brains explode. That's why it's generally left implicit and only expanded upon when confusion in intended meaning arises.
>the set rules themselves are the game
The RULES themselves are the game. Or more specifically the abiding by those rules. Regardless of whether they're set or not. Evolving games with fluid rules are still games. Emergent gameplay is a thing.
>that's just sucking at the game
Absolutely. It's sucking at the game, by not actually playing it. Interacting with the presented context rather than the presented game.
Training mode is a VALID way to do that, I guess.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:46:47 2018 No.4850832 >>4850691 Well you're also talking about how much you hate stuff. I'm willing to bet your list is long too

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:49:40 2018 No.4850838

>>4850823
Back in '05 I made a multiplayer text-based turn-based RPG bot on IRC and the final boss was Azathoth. What is it with Lovecraft man? He's probably inspired more RPG bosses than any other writer. Half of the final bosses in FF look lovecraftian

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:49:47 2018 No.4850839

>>4850675
Sort of. Rather than ignoring skill, it adds a different skill into the mix as well. The ability to get along with and make others work with you.
Like >>4850684 said, matchmaking kills them. Since it's so damn difficult to achieve with randomized players.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:50:37 2018 No.4850840

>>4850830
>It's sucking at the game, by not actually playing it.
Doing random inputs it's still playing it, just thoughtlessly. You still end up either winning or losing, which is a game. Games are also about chance, the important thing is the win/lose rules.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:52:55 2018 No.4850846 >>4850838 The concept of difficult to understand things, that are more powerful than all else, that ARE NOT benevolent is inherently attractive. It makes readers and creators want to TRY to understand as much as they can.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:55:46 2018 No.4850851

>>4850840
Sure. You could also thoughtlessly play with dolls, or thoughtlessly create characters in games with customization.
Though I'd argue that unless you're intentionally interacting with the game you're not playing it. You're pushing past it and ignoring it, opting out.
Like, buying a lottery ticket but never ever checking it or using it is not playing the lottery, it's just buying a ticket.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:55:51 2018 No.4850852 >>4850685 There are a few anons doing it but they're all the same. That guy was marveling at the feedback he gets, I was simply explaining why. It applies to all of you

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:57:19 2018 No.4850857 >>4850273 It would be better if he wasn't using power ups like a baby. Progression ruins fucking everything.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 15:58:25 2018 No.4850859 >>4850680 I mentioned it cause at this point it might as well be the thread topic

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:00:46 2018 No.4850863

>>4850851
Playing with dolls or creating characters has no win/lose state, man. It can be fun or entertaining but that's not a game. You can create a game with said dolls or whatever, but you know what I mean
>Though I'd argue that unless you're intentionally interacting with the game you're not playing it.
Do you know how many casuals mash buttons randomly in fighting games? Just saying
>>4850857
Again with the falseflags? Stop with the butthurt wtf you're seriously mad and looking very stupid here

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:01:14 2018 No.4850865 >>4850859 Well then don't be shocked by the responses you get lol

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:02:40 2018 No.4850869 >>4850863 >implying power ups aren't bad for gaming Are we really going back to square one?

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:04:13 2018 No.4850871

>>4850865
I wasn't. You do realize that all my posts weren't made in the same context right? Not to mention I'm not even the guy who blanket dislikes progression systems either, I often use the term neutrally but fags are so upset by its mere mention that they'll sperg out regardless of context.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:07:09 2018 No.4850879

>>4850863
There is a win/lose state, the will to continue. Especially in multiplayer. The game is to abide by and create the rules so that players will keep playing and not simply quit.
That's also the same win/lose state developers face when making games for others, cultivating the will to continue. And a relatively easy way to do that is to provide a comfort zone to learn to play by the rules in.
>casuals mash buttons randomly in fighting games
With the intent to win. The intent to play by the rules, even if they don't know them. Or even if the rules themselves are subject to change.
I see it a lot with online PvP where players have to make up their own more limited rules just to keep players playing, because the default all out state is so unforgiving.
Is playing by those evolving rules not playing games?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:08:56 2018 No.4850881 >>4850871 Well the scenario was funny to me, so thanks for that.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:10:36 2018 No.4850882 >>4850881 Its pretty funny in retrospect since I had no clue wtf peoples problem was until I checked these threads

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:11:11 2018 No.4850883

>>4850869
Not implying anything, just stating it was yet another silly falseflag
>>4850871
>often use the term neutrally but fags are so upset by its mere mention that they'll sperg out regardless of context.
Shut up already or we'll get the whole discussion removed by mods
>>4850879
>There is a win/lose state, the will to continue.
DEEP, MAN
Multiplayer games have a win/lose state. Each match is either a win or a loss.
>cultivating the will to continue
Guess what they use for that? Won't say anything
>Is playing by those evolving rules not playing games?
Anything with some rules to set a win/loss state can be described as a game I think

Again, same thing: you have a ball to kick, seems fun. Then you make a game out of it: soccer.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:11:14 2018 No.4850884 Probably either the whole Smithy fight from SMRPG or the whole Kefkas Tower leading up and including Kefka. Both have this feeling of struggling through the final layers of protection to reach that powerful big bad.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:12:06 2018 No.4850886 >>4850882 This thread has been pretty amazing for it's comedy potential.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:14:23 2018 No.4850893 >>4850883 It's not a false flag. Power ups areno different from grinding for levels. They're literally only there to make shit players feel better.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:15:59 2018 No.4850896 >>4850893 It's a guy pretending to be another anon to get people angry / get reactions. Yeah, falseflag

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:18:33 2018 No.4850903 >>4850893 You're too obvious man

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:18:58 2018 No.4850904

>>4850883
I agree, rules make the game, and anything else is just entertainment outside of that context. I just meant to say they don't have to be strict or set rules.
Though I'm not sure where we're going with this. I just joined in arguing about it when >>4850673 >>4850701 brought it up.

Back to that point, difficulty ALONE won't help anything. Well, unless you're addicted to that difficulty just like raiders are addicted to drop chasing or grinders are addicted to progress.
They're all okay and even positive aspects of games. But they alone won't make a game better without something else to balance them.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:20:45 2018 No.4850909 >>4850903 >>4850896 Not a false flag. Prove me wrong if you think you can.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:23:40 2018 No.4850913

>>4850909
It turns out you were the shitposting actually trying to trigger people ITT in the first place, interesting.
Guys, don't bother. I know it's easy to refute him, but don't bite.
In fact, unless you find this stuff fun, I suggest stop postig here altogether, he's laughing at us essentially.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:24:47 2018 No.4850917 >>4850913 shitposter* posting*

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:26:07 2018 No.4850921 >>4850893 Obvious false flag aside this isn't wrong when applied to certain games like some Caveshit where the difference between power ups is so miniscule that they're mostly there for the visuals. There's fun shmups without power ups.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:27:48 2018 No.4850925 >>4850921 U dun goofed

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:29:27 2018 No.4850927

>>4850909
Okay, sure.
Powerups are a collectable convenience. You can opt not to use them for a higher level of difficulty, and that may provide more fun for you.
But saying they are 'bad for gaming' or 'ruin everything' is like saying spells ruin RPGs, N2O ruins racing, or (Unlockable?) combos ruin fighting games. It's an absurd proposition that an optional layer of depth, for either ease or difficulty, alone ruins the game.
You can sure opt to play without them. You can even attempt to belittle others who don't. (Back before the internet that would often get you ostracised for failing at the game of social networking, if you brought nothing else to the table, whatever.)
But when the majority doesn't want to play by your rules, that's generally evidence they don't like your rules, which makes them, to them, shitty rules, thus shitty games.

I can imagine there are people who would praise removing everything but lunatic difficulty with no powerups from shmups, but they're the exception.
I'd certainly prefer well balanced options over either extreme.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:31:08 2018 No.4850932 >>4850863 >Again with the falseflags? Stop with the butthurt wtf you're seriously mad and looking very stupid here >P-please stop demonstrate how retarded my opinions are, that hurts my fee fees

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:32:19 2018 No.4850936

I believe this same exact falseflagger came to the shmup general to sperg out, check this out
Read from here onwards a bit, same posting style >>4846292
He seems to be REALLY butthurt about the progress criticism

This is just in case you were on the fence

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:32:44 2018 No.4850938

>>4850893
No, because those games still require reflexes and timing, even with powerups. And in most it is clear when you are supposed to use powerups, some are time limited, and you are punished with losing them when you lose a life or take damage. Leveling up in RPGs is a permanent boost and generally the lines between underleveled/correct level/overleveled is vague, unless the game specifies a suggested level for entering the area.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:33:23 2018 No.4850941 >>4850925 Mate if I wanted to avoid replying to bait I wouldn't be on 4chan

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:34:40 2018 No.4850946 >>4850938 You're talking to a troll, if it wasn't obvious enough already >>4850941 Fair nuff

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:43:13 2018 No.4850967 >>4850938 It's not always a permanent boost. I've played games, though mostly roguelikes/lites, that have monsters and spells that reduce your level. And they were pretty damn well balanced around it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:46:58 2018 No.4850972 >>4850936 I don't think that's the same guy, I don't think someone butthurt about criticism would be playing both sides. Also if you read down the chain he gets more serious later on. What do I know though

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:47:00 2018 No.4850973 >>4850967 You know he's not talking about those

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:49:00 2018 No.4850982

>>4850972
I've encountered that anon many times and it definitel feels like him. Hard to explain tho and yes, could be wrong.
Seems like a weird coincidence that this thread happens while that thread gets posts of that style when that stuff is never brought up there.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:50:00 2018 No.4850984

>>4850972
>I don't think someone butthurt about criticism would be playing both sides
Oh dear. No no, it's totally possible. Even if it's more than one person, playing the devil's advocate for the sake of argument is certainly exciting. Trying to pry into a point that opposes your own and actually understand it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 16:52:32 2018 No.4850990 >>4850984 Or proposing the opposing arguments so absurdly that they WILL garner disagreement so as to affirm one's position. That works too.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 19:43:10 2018 No.4851304

>>4850927
>You can opt not to use them for a higher level of difficulty,

Exactly. So it's the same as grinding. You CAN kill a billion slimes till you've made the game easy, but you don't have to. Just like you can collect every single powerup you come across if you want to make it easier, but you don't have to.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 19:44:17 2018 No.4851306 >>4851304 Back for some more shitposting?

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 20:17:25 2018 No.4851358

>>4850927
>I'd certainly prefer well balanced options over either extreme.
YOU DON'T SAY!
I prefer that events, minigames, story, and progress systems be balanced with gameplay over either extreme. I tend to prefer less events and story than typical JRPG fans as an adult, but then I mostly grew out of JRPGs about 20 years ago. I only play them now (rarely) for nostalgia and occasional analysis. But I think there are plenty of ways that those elements can enrich the gameplay experience, especially for a genre called "Role Playing Games."

>>4851304
I don't think it's the same. But it's also not a binary issue where you either have "self-imposed challenges" or you have planned difficulty. I think you have to find some sort of reasonable baseline, a range of "typical players" as well as the extremes and then evaluate all of them. The typical JRPG player ranges from "fights most encounters but does no additional grinding" to "does a moderate amount of grinding if they find it fun." Then you look at what kind of challenges those players will face.

For very simple and inflexible games, which includes most shmups but also a lot of platformers, almost all players are going to fall into a "typical" category. Any players that bother to take on self-imposed challenges are going to be the extreme minority, and often those challenges are going to look remarkably similar to standard gameplay (eg getting through multiple runs with no deaths). JRPG self-imposed challenges tend to be more complicated and arbitrary. Plus there's no real category of players for shmups, as there is for JRPGs, that take a cheesy, predictable path to victory like grinding. Although unlike what they'll have you believe, there are certainly non-JRPG, non-Progress System games where no-effort victories can be achieved. Belt-scrolling arcade beat em ups like Final Fight and TMNT are good examples.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 20:19:30 2018 No.4851360

>>4851358
(cont)
In order to have any challenge in a belt-scrolling beat-em-up you need a self-imposed challenge like a limit on the number of lives or coins you're allowed to spend in order to win. That's no different than limiting the amount of grinding.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 20:26:09 2018 No.4851369

The main difference is the consistency. Beating arcades with one coin is very clear, and they're also designed to be beatable that way. Continuing resets score after all.
In JRPGs you can't "not grind" in a sense. Do you escape from everything? The games are not made for that.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 20:34:40 2018 No.4851379

>>4851358
Nearly everything you said about shmups is wrong. There's a ton of variety within even a small subgroup of players, like mid-level players. Some clear first loops, some clear more, some do more scoring than others, some bomb spam and flail around some have consistent clean routes and even within practice some people use savestates/practice modes to do it efficiently others take the hard route and grind runs purist-style. There are many categories for shmup players, there's credit feeders who are equivalent to grinding casuals, there's game jumpers who mostly play for a quick 1cc and don't stick with games for too long, there's scorefags and there's guys who do challenge runs. It's just that within shmups all of these playstyles are considered and intuitive. Players don't have to decide to not bomb to make a boss pattern more challenging for no reason, they do it because it saves them bombs for later parts of the game and gives them end level bonuses. Beat em ups are similar, but scoring sucks there.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 20:36:58 2018 No.4851385

>>4851379
>Players don't have to decide to not bomb to make a boss pattern more challenging for no reason, they do it because it saves them bombs for later parts of the game and gives them end level bonuses. Beat em ups are similar, but scoring sucks there.
Indeed

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 20:40:53 2018 No.4851391

>>4851369
> In JRPGs you can't "not grind" in a sense. Do you escape from everything? The games are not made for that.
Fight most of the random battles, run away if you get bored, don't walk around in circles near an inn fighting the same enemies over and over again. Don't fuck around with XP-boosting items or powerleveling strategies (like killing off everyone except 1 person so they get 4x the experience). That's all sensible and typical gameplay for an average player, they aren't arbitrary, unintuitive, or complicated restrictions.

Play the game that way, and evaluate the challenge. A JRPG will still be easier than playing through a beat-em-up on a fixed number of coins (eg 20 which is like $5.00 worth), but at least you'll be able to discuss it without coming off like a binary-thinking simpleton.

> Beating arcades with one coin is very clear, and they're also designed to be beatable that way.
TMNT is most definitely not designed to be beaten that way. Bosses in that game heavily favor cheap counter-attacks (while being very easy to land hits on). Winning strategies are often awkward and unintuitive techniques like standing still doing nothing until the boss decides to walk up to you, then whacking him at the right moment and scooting away before the counter hits. TMNT is clearly designed to be beaten by moderately skilled players spending a lot of coins to win. Not players analyzing the boss AI to exploit and cheese. Final Fight is not so egregious but there are very very few cases where you actually have to overcome some challenge that can't be cheesed with extra lives.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 20:42:23 2018 No.4851396 >>4851379 >there's credit feeders who are equivalent to grinding casuals this is only the same for shmups where a new life spawns immediately after death. In any game where a death means reverting to a checkpoint, you can't cheese it with coins.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 20:46:37 2018 No.4851402

>>4851391
>Final Fight is not so egregious but there are very very few cases where you actually have to overcome some challenge that can't be cheesed with extra lives.
What is this even supposed to mean? You can get past any challenge in any game easily by throwing extra lives at it. It obv wanted to take your coins with some of the bosses but outside of them the game is very fair. Alot of arcade games were like this, mostly fair but with some bullshit here and there to destroy new players that nonetheless can be overcome with practice. Btw in TMNT you can land 2 and sometimes 3 hits and move away without getting countered

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 20:47:36 2018 No.4851406

>>4851391
>most of the random battles
You see what I mean? You can't quantify it. "Most". In arcades it's clear, consistent: one coin. Simple as that. You can put more to practice or play casually.
I know how JRPGs are played usually, I have played them. Just saying.
>but at least you'll be able to discuss it without coming off like a binary-thinking simpleton.
Damn, someone hates beat em ups, Jesus.
About the TMNT stuff, I mean it's still possible t beat the games once you know and master them. With most JRPGs if you avoid any unnecessary experience gains, new equipment or anything beyond what you start with they're just impossible because your characters simply can't compete, so you have to "grind" somewhat, even if this means killing some mobs along the way. It's just not quantified since these games aren't about the challenge anyway as you know. They have some challenge but they're meant as very casual, chilling comfortable experience that can also be played by total noobies with enough time to grind.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 20:49:30 2018 No.4851412 >>4851396 Thats most shmups lad, and even most checkpoint ones arent quite as brutal as Gradius and R Type with their checkpoints and are very recoverable so throwing coins does make them significantly easier

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 20:53:04 2018 No.4851416

>>4851379
>Nearly everything you said about shmups is wrong
Nah you just didn't understand what I meant but that's OK. I figured someone would respond like this. I just didn't have the energy (or characters in the post) to be any more articulate. But I guess, here goes:

Basically all that shit you describe fits within the parameters of my definition of typical. Within the definition of "typical JRPG player" there are many different approaches and playstyles as well. There are completionists who feel the need to collect every item and complete every challenge. There are storyfags who rush through gameplay just to see the next event. There are experimenters who like to understand every mechanic in as much depth as possible.

What we're distinguishing from being "typical" are players who engage in arbitrary challenges and players who deliberately cheese most of the difficulty out of the game. In JRPGs you have speedrunners, you have solo-character challenges, you have single-class challenges, etc.. And you have grinders and power-levellers who over-level and blow through the challenges. Those are atypical players and while they are playing within the parameters set by the game, they're not "typical" players.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 20:53:41 2018 No.4851419

>>4851412
This is true. The point is, with arcades, you can play with 1 coin for the "hardcore" experience (continuing resets the score, for instance) or instead credit feed to casually breeze through them
With JRPGs tho it's not as black or white. Again, what's usually said is "don't grind", but again, this is a grey area we're talking about here. And again, it's pointless since this isn't what those games are about.
To play JRPGs for the challenge you have to come up with very convoluted restrictions. It's why I stopped playing them. With arcades, just play a coin, and you have plenty of challenge.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 20:54:07 2018 No.4851421 >>4851406 >You can't quantify it I absolutely could if I had a specific game and some way of counting them. Yeah it's a little harder to describe but it is most definitely quantifiable (within a range).

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 20:55:09 2018 No.4851424 >>4851421 Read this then I guess >>4851419

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 20:59:51 2018 No.4851440

>>4851406
I don't hate beat-em-ups. I hate discussions where the only ways to understand an RPG are:

0. You over-level and press A to win.
1. You play with crazy arbitrary self-imposed challenges.

Anyone who acts like those are the only two options is a binary-thinking simpleton.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 21:00:53 2018 No.4851442 >>4851424 No read this:>>4851440 Just because one faggot can't figure it out or generally finds JRPGs too easy for hist t

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 21:06:14 2018 No.4851451

>>4851440
Nah, not the point at all, the usual player does neither of those things anyway.
However, if you desire to play JRPGs for the challenge (not talking about "challenge" that can barely be described as such that is meant to engage the player enough and that's it, but actual challenge), convoluted self-imposed challenges are the only option. Playing through them "normally" (which again can't really be measured, unlike in arcades where you have clear standards like "just 1 coin") you'll get a very light challenge, because that's what they're designed to be, and that's OK I guess.
The least convoluted challenge is a speedrun, and I don't need to tell you how these weren't designed for time attack at fucking all with the length, cutscenes, RNG and whatnot.
See what I mean already or what? Maybe our disagreement comes as to how easy these are when played normally. To me they range from easy to sleep pill, but again, that's me and I'm used to harder games.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 21:08:55 2018 No.4851457

>>4851419
> Again, what's usually said is "don't grind", but again, this is a grey area we're talking about here. And again, it's pointless since this isn't what those games are about.
It's really not that grey. Sure, if you play a game in a typical manner and still find it too easy, then it's too easy for you. Almost all genres have easy games. And while it's true that challenge is not "what JRPGs are about" it's not true that just because challenge isn't the main focus, that there is no challenge whatsoever and the challenge that is there is irrelevant just because you didn't notice it.
>To play JRPGs for the challenge you have to come up with very convoluted restrictions.
Maybe, if challenge is really all you care about. The question is whether there is enough challenge to make the game worthwhile. For you, obviously not. But that doesn't mean there isn't any challenge at all.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 21:10:50 2018 No.4851461

>>4851451
> if you desire to play JRPGs for the challenge
If you desire to play JRPGs for the challenge, the first thing you'll have to do is make sure you are at least playing games that fans consider to be challenging. Certainly many JRPGs are easy, no doubt about it.

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 21:16:07 2018 No.4851478

>>4851457
You seem to finally get me. I've always played games for the challenge
As a kid or teen I played these, and as I got better I started to get bored with them so began to come up with self-imposed challenges. Which can be fun, but I gradually started to gravitate more to games that actually tried to engage me in that sense.
Believe me, I've played many JRPGs, including the harder ones. I played the SMT fantranslations right when they came out around 15 years ago, for instance. The last new one I played was Etrian Odyssey II three years ago, gave those a chance since I heard they were challenging but meh.
No JRPG comes close to the arcade standard of challenge, even if, granted, the type of challenge is different. Even then, I suggest you try Tatsujin Ou on MAME. Play with infinite credits even and you'll see what I mean.
With those I finally got what I wanted from games, that's simply it.
My biggest gripe is that I actually enjoy some aspects of JRPGs that are unique to them and always felt their potential was lost due to them being designed to be about being light to very light in challenge.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 21:36:05 2018 No.4851507 >buy and play dozens of JRPG's since the 90's >never beat a single one Currently replaying FF7 because I got to the last boss back when it came out in 97 but could never beat it so I gave up. Wish me luck

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 21:37:30 2018 No.4851508 >>4851507 With some patience you won't have an issue as an adult

>>	Anonymous Wed Jun 20 23:19:22 2018 No.4851717 >>4850903 Was it though?

Anonymous Wed Jun 20 23:19:30 2018 No.4851718

I like the challenge of endurance more than the challenge of immediate skill. The latter is too easy to become dependent on and tends to make things boring.
VNs are my favorite games. Their porn scenes are some of the hardest(笑) bosses I've ever seen for the challenge of endurance.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 21 04:06:49 2018 No.4852141 >>4851451 >the usual player does neither of those things anyway Yeah that's why we have shitposts like >>4844368 regularly.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 21 19:38:33 2018 No.4853608 >>4851718 >>4851718 Which are the hardest?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jun 21 20:35:14 2018 No.4853746 >>4851478 Makes sense. I rarely play JRPGs anymore myself and I don't just play games for challenge. I still like roleplaying elements although not as much as when I was a kid/teen.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 22 13:39:04 2018 No.4855019 >>4851718 holds down CTRL wow nice challenge, nerd.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jun 22 13:53:18 2018 No.4855037 File: 70 KB, 800x450, DDF2AFE3-E214-4A54-8F90-1090F94FD362.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >this entire thread

>>	Anonymous Sat Jun 23 00:57:20 2018 No.4856352 >>4855019 That's like flipping through a book at the fastest speed you can without even skimming shit and claiming you've read it. The second fastest way to FAIL it, right after just closing it out.

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