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/vr/ - Retro Games

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4838091 No.4838091 [Reply] [Original]

What were konami's best games during their glory days?

>> No.4838097

Metal Gear Solid
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
Suikoden II

>> No.4838098

>>4838091
Castlevania SOTN, MGS, Contra, Gradius, Sunset Riders

>> No.4838101

If we're talking arcade games then shit like TMNT and the Simpsons were the best bmups of the time

>> No.4838102

Pooyan
Frogger
Policenauts

>> No.4838103

gradius is the fucking shit and still a blast.

>> No.4838105

>>4838097
>>4838098
>SOTN
You have to be 18+ to post here.

>> No.4838112

Gradius > Crime Fighters Trilogy > Contra > Classicvania > Goemon > Rocket Knight > Metal Gear > IGAvania > Suikoden

>> No.4838121

>>4838112
>MGS and the good Castlevanias that low
REEEEEEEE STOP SHITTING ON BASED KOJIMA AND IGARASHI WHO CAN DO NOTHING WRONG

>> No.4838126

Their biggest while most benign influence to the industry were their arcade shooters, namely the Gradius franchise. The first game is a milestone to hori shooters, and shoot 'em ups as a whole, while some of the later games of the franchise are even better. By late /vr/ they were already becoming shit (abandoning their arcade roots, making cinematic garbage, turning franchises into pachinkos such as the Parodius games in 1998 and on...)

>> No.4838145

>>4838126
>By late /vr/ they were already becoming shit (abandoning their arcade roots, making cinematic garbage
Snatcher came out in 1988. The cinematic games started selling well late /vr/ time but they were just giving the people what they wanted. I knew that my tastes for gameplay instead of choose your own adventure movies were becoming obscure when Hard Corps Uprising sold poorly

>> No.4838152

>>4838145
Of course, in the 80's and earlier in the 90's they made a variety of games. What I meant is that they abandoned their roots. The last arcade shooter they developed themselves was Gradius IV afaik. But by then they had changed their logo and started becoming famous for babbyfied games like MGS or SotN, and also started their "turning game franchises into pachinko" tendencies.

>> No.4838154

>>4838152
>>MGS
>>SOTN
>>babbyfied

try harder, contrariafag

>> No.4838162

>>4838154
Play one arcade game and get back to me. Play an early Castlevania game and tell me SOTN isn't piss easy.

>> No.4838165

>>4838154
This guy isn't me btw >>4838162
Hey, it's OK if you enjoy those games, but if you can't tell SotN for instance is a very simplified game even in comparison to previous console games like the Classicvanias you're just trolling.

>> No.4838169

>>4838091
I'd say Rondo for the classic Castlevania feel, SOTN for exploration/amazing sprite art and stuff to find. Games like Gradius for arcade shmup and Suikoden 2 for RPG. Obviously MGS is good too.

>> No.4838173

>>4838162
>>4838165
A game's difficulty, or lack thereof, is not the only indicator of quality.

>> No.4838174

>>4838169
You have to be 18+ to post here.

>> No.4838176

>>4838173
This is not what I'm talking about, though. The guy called me a contrarian for calling SotN easy.
Now, I personally enjoy games with challenge, and SotN in particular for a walking simulator it's quite fine. I'm less fine with MGS since I hate cinematic shit creeping into games, though.
The issue, though, is the variety. I'm fine when both easy and hard games exist. However, Konami started to abandon the players that like challenging games, that's the whole point.

>> No.4838181
File: 101 KB, 810x1080, Juno_First_-_1983_-_Konami.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4838181

>>4838091

How about before their glory days?

>> No.4838195

The Parodius trilogy. Also, Rocket Knigth Adventures, the TMNT games, The Goonies, Super Castlevania IV, Rondo and Chronicles, Contra, Green Beret, The Simpsons, etc.

>> No.4838207

>>4838181
Their arcade games were pretty good.

https://youtu.be/aYXPnusJN9s

>> No.4838214

>>4838207
'88 was well into their glory days.
If anything what correlates the most with their glory days is their second logo, which was from 1986–1998. Some may argue it started earlier (Gradius is from 85)

>> No.4838239
File: 750 KB, 371x372, 1498068440157.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4838239

>> No.4838248

>>4838181
my favorite arcade game from Konomi was definitely Gyrus

>> No.4838252

>>4838176
"babbyfied" typically means more than just "easy."
You're definitely coming off like someone whose concept of a difficult game is limited to ultra-steep arcade difficulty designed to milk as many quarters as possible by ensuring casuals get Game Over in <2 minutes and hardcores have to spend shitload of money giting gud.

>> No.4838261

>>4838252
No, I also like stuff like the F-Zero series, which aren't arcade games. Just saying it like it is, they started to pander to a different audience than what they made games for years before. Iga has specifically mentioned this.

>> No.4838267

>>4838252
>>4838176
Konami's TMNT is a genius design and the best of both worlds in this respect. It's incredibly difficult to beat without dying, but a crowd of 9-12 year olds taking turns feeding it quarters will have no problem whatsoever beating Shredder and Krang eventually. No skill beyond button mashing is actually required to win so long as you keep feeding it quarters.

>> No.4838268

>>4838101
>then shit like TMNT and the Simpsons were the best bmups of the time
behave yourself, they were popular but not good, know the difference. The only good konami bmup of the time was violent storm and vendetta 2.

>> No.4838272

>>4838267
This goes for pretty much every arcade that allows for infinite continues, and there are thousands of them.

>> No.4838282

>>4838272
> This goes for pretty much every arcade that allows for infinite continues
There are a lot of arcade games like TMNT but it certainly does not apply "any game that allows for infinite continues."

Specifically, TMNT is a multiplayer beat-em-up where "continuing" literally continues the game from the exact moment you died (if another player is still alive, the game doesn't even pause). The beat-em-up nature means that there are no specific skill challenges that have to be overcome. Everything has a health bar and so long as you whack it a couple of times before dying, you can put another quarter in to keep whacking it. Gauntlet is another game where this works, since tokens directly give you more health.

Contrast this with a game like, say, Rastan (Taito). Checkpoints are frequent and generous, but they are still checkpoints. If you die, you have to go back to the checkpoint and try again. You can keep trying until you overcome the challenge, and the game has some randomness so subsequent tries might be easier in some way, but you still have to overcome the challenge.

>> No.4838284

Snatcher, everything else is fucking shit

>> No.4838285

>>4838282
Then every other beat em up like this? Like, the whole Capcom beat em up library starting with Final Fight? TMNT is absolutely no special in that regard, man.
And there are MANY games that allow for infinite continues without sending you back while also being co-op. Pretty much every 90's shoot em up is like this.

>> No.4838291

>>4838105
>>4838174
(You)

>> No.4838304

>>4838282
It's harder find belt scrolling beat em ups that send you back to checkpoints instead of restarting you right where you died. I can't think of a single one like this.

>> No.4838331

>>4838285
I never intended to exclude other beat-em-ups from this assessment. Good lord. But anyway, "Capcom's whole library" didn't exist when TMNT was released. It came out around the same time as the first Final Fight.

>>4838304
It's hard to find belt-scrolling beat em ups at all before 1989. TMNT was in the first wave of beat-em-ups that came out after Double Dragon got popular.

>> No.4838336

>>4838331
Ah, so your point is that it was unique at the time? Then maybe, though it very quickly became a standard for arcades. Should have mentioned this though, since by itself at this point it's not something special at all.

>> No.4838363
File: 30 KB, 514x536, 1514482648300.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4838363

>>4838112

>> No.4838384

>>4838105
SOTN is one of the best games of all time and I'm 34

>> No.4838396

>>4838384
You were 13 when the game came out so checks out

>> No.4838409

>>4838384
The castlevania fandom irrationally hates SOTN because it's "too easy". Really, that's their one and only justification for hating it.

>> No.4838424

>>4838409

That's an extremely good reason.

>> No.4838427

>>4838409
It's not that irrational. Some people like challenge in their games, and it's only natural that fans of the older games are like that since they are games on the harder side for console stuff. So specially when a game gets constantly called the best in the series while also being probably the easiest, shit can get tiresome.
The same happens with hard entries in otherwise easy franchises.

>> No.4838430

>>4838424
It's really not. I replay easy games all the time if they're fun easy games. Like Mario 64, Mario Kart 64 and Sonic 3 & Knuckles. It's fun to take a leisurely spin through a world you're familiar with.

>> No.4838438

>>4838091
Winning Eleven 3

>> No.4838443

>>4838427

I dunno, I think easy-players only get upset when it's something like the Sonic 3 barrel where the difficulty comes more from obfuscation in design. The barrel isn't even difficult in any way, it's just interpreted as difficulty to that crowd when really all that happened was a game that has never featured puzzles before put one in there out of the blue. They go back to having the exact same amount of fun as before the barrel once you point out the new design.

I think people that need easy games in order to have any fun know enough to make sure a game isn't hard before they play it.

>> No.4838449

>>4838430
>It's really not.

It is, though. SotN is a more complicated game with more mechanics than all of those games combined. You might as well have picked out a competitive game and said "you know some people don't play this to compete, right?" So what? There's a reason the DS Castlevanias with hard mode lvl 1 cap are better, it's the difficulty, this genre is suited to that and not to easy play.

>> No.4838460

>>4838409
SOTN is my favorite but I still appreciate the older games and their difficulty. I think most of the fandom probably agrees with me. Don't feed the contrarian attention seekers is all.

>> No.4838463

>>4838460
That's an awfully long way of saying "I'm an autistic retard baby".

>> No.4838467
File: 215 KB, 640x480, ggaintro-3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4838467

This was their last great platformer.

>> No.4838469

>>4838430
It really isnt, I dont see the point of playing games that are effortless since its an active medium, if I wanted something passive Id just go all the way and watch a movie. You could have a point if you said that you can still come up with self imposed challenges and goals to make easy games more interesting but at that point youre asking the player to create their own fun.

>> No.4838490

Honestly, DDR.

>> No.4838525

>>4838467
Agreed, if we're only counting in-house, otherwise Castlevania Rebirth was real good.

>> No.4838580

>>4838490
Holy fuck one result found for DDR, I think you are all underestimating the cultural impact of this series

>> No.4838603

>>4838580
ddr always struck me as a 'scene' that was short-lived more than something that had lasting impact

It was fun, though and I met my first girlfriend that way

>> No.4838607

>>4838603

That scene still exists.

You're right that its real impact was just a very concentrated group, though.

>> No.4838612

>>4838607
>That scene still exists.
You mean in Japan, right? Arcades are pretty much dead in the west, save for places like Dave & Busters and Chuck E. Cheese

>> No.4838616

>>4838580
>>4838603
In my country, the korean Pump it Up was more popular. I always thought the diagonal arrows on PIU made more sense than the + on DDR, but I liked the music on DDR a lot more.
That said, I think bemani shit is on a tier of its own. Can't compare it to classics like Gradius or Castlevania. 2 completely different eras. In fact, even though the first DDR games are /vr/, I barely feel dancing games to be retro. I started seeing them on arcades here during 6th gen, 2001/2002 was when the craze happened.

>> No.4838619
File: 10 KB, 400x131, TREASURE-Co.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4838619

>>4838091

>> No.4838624

>>4838619
a better company than treasure in every way, well, except for their shmups

>> No.4838626

>>4838616
Northeastern US here. I played PIU more than DDR since there were way more PIU machines in the few arcades that did still exist. I did play DDR first, though- when I was over in Seattle in 1999 (2nd mix machine)

>> No.4838630

>>4838612

It's 2018, anon, consoles are equally capable to arcades.

I don't play DDR, but I do play fighting games, and sometimes FG tournaments overlap with DDR meetups. DDR is still a scene and can get dozens of people together regularly.

>> No.4838636 [DELETED] 

>>4838624
Nah, Trashure shmups suck.

>> No.4838718

>>4838469
>what are JRPGs
>what are telltale games
People enjoy low-interactivity games dude, even if you don't. It's just an opinion

>> No.4838774

>>4838336
Jesus, try to follow along. I will spell it out for you autistically:

My point is related to this guy(>>4838145
) spewing shit about "cinematic games" and taking cheap shots at SOTN as if the grand old days of late 80s Konami were any different.
> [Konami] started becoming famous for babbyfied games like MGS or SotN
TMNT, a Konami belt-scroller from 1989, is a theoretically difficult yet mind-numbingly simple in practice. You put quarters in and mash the attack button until you win, and are rewarded with lots of great visuals, exciting animations, and references to the characters from the Turtles cartoon. Sure theoretically it's possible to be good at the game, but it was designed to be played by 10-year olds at birthday parties, not hardcore arcade bums. It's as "babbyfied" as a game can get.

>> No.4838797

Rondo of Blood, Policenauts, Suikoden 2, Contra, Xexex, Gradius, Rocket Knight. So much good shit. They were the best dev in the world at one point imo

>> No.4838813

What is wrong with you people? Not mentioning Zombies Ate My Neighbors in a thread like this!

>> No.4838834

>>4838813
that was lucas arts. Konami published it

>> No.4838839

>>4838449
it's weird how you quoted only the first three words of the post and didn't acknowledge anything after it

>> No.4838926

>>4838409
It is easy because the combination of the platforming challenges and enemy placement aren't interesting. The focus of SotN isn't the combat or platforming but the exploration, and it shows.

Honestly the most fun Metriod like I've played was Gacamelee which the combat was enjoyable and the platforming was really good even if it didn't punish you hard on pits.

>> No.4839084

>>4838813
If we're going into Konami-published games then Cybernator should be mentioned too

>> No.4839110

>>4838097
>SOTN

Ruined Castlevania desu, trashy game that people only remember because it had a lot of gimmicks.

>> No.4839114

Sunset Riders - preferably the Arcade version, but I actually do like the Genesis and SNES ports as well.

Rocket Knight Adventure - Sparkster: Rocket Knight Adventures 2 pm the Genesis/ Mega Drive and Sparkster on the SNES were good too.

Contra Hard Corps
Contra 3
Super C
Contra
Contra Shattered Soldier

Super Castlevania 4
Castlevania 3
Castlevania
Castlevania Bloodlines
Rondo of Blood

Snatcher

Alexlay

Just about every game in Konami's 16-bit library is rock solid. I can;t really think of a bad game that they released from that era. Some games are better than others, sure. But even licensed stuff like the TMNT brawlers, and even the Tiny Toons and Animaniacs games were all decent.

>> No.4839134

>>4839114
>TMNT brawlers
>decent

They were some of the best games of 8 and 16 bit eras by far

>> No.4839232

>>4838463
You sure showed him.

>> No.4839235

>>4839134
You forget this is 4chan, the contrarians are everywhere.
Plus TMNT is kind of simplistic, which some people take as being "bad".

>> No.4839349

>>4838105
>>4838174
Why are you posting then?

>> No.4839358

>>4838105
33 and SOTN was fucking amazing back in the day

>> No.4839362

SOTN
metal gear solid 1/2
Suikoden 2
And Silent Hill 1 and 2
Was peak Konami.

>> No.4839367

>>4839358
Amazing game for a casual 12 yo indeed.
>>4839362
More like "start of the decline" Konami

>> No.4839382

>>4838091
Konami:
Castlevania series (up until they cloned metroid ad nauseum)
Contra series
Esper Dream 2
Getsu Fuuma Den
Parodius series
Rocket Knight Adventures
Snatcher
Sunset Riders/Mystic Warriors
The Maze of Galious (MSX)
Vendetta/Violent Storm

KCET:
Silent Hill original trilogy
Poitter's Point 2

KCEJ:
MGS series
ZOE series
Boktai Series
>>4838097
>Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
>Suikoden II
Yeahnah. SOTN is good but nowhere near their best because it shit its trousers in the second half. Suikoden 2 is fucking mediocre and woeful in single facet except it has ok sprites.
>>4838101
There were far superior arcade beatemups, and then there was shit on consoles like bare knuckle 3 that was far superior to anything on arcade.
>>4838384
You've either a) played fuck all games, b) haven't played SOTN since 98 or c) you know nothing about level design.

>> No.4839407

>>4838774
>TMNT, a Konami belt-scroller from 1989, is a theoretically difficult yet mind-numbingly simple in practice

You don't actually understand the problem with games like SoTN. TMNT isn't "theoretically difficult", it's difficult if you want to play well, that is not die constantly like a bitch. SoTN isn't like that, you have to deliberately avoid using most of the shit in the game to make it anywhere near an ok challenge, and even then it's exploitable as fuck.

>but it was designed to be played by 10-year olds at birthday parties, not hardcore arcade bums

You faggots always say this but give me a single interview where developers say their primary audience was children and that they weren't also trying to please "hardcore arcade bums", it's another one of those baseless assumptions you cretins make because it sounds good to you

>> No.4839409

>>4839407
I think he's just an eloquent troll

>> No.4839439

The lack of Parodius love in this post is disturbing.

>> No.4839441

>all these people posting SOTN

It's the worst retro 2D Castlevania, I suspect most people who claim it's the best haven't ever beaten the ones that came before it 'cuz they were too hard for them.

>> No.4839454

>>4839439
You know how /vr/ is with arcades, cinematic stuff is more popular

>> No.4839462

>>4838268
>stop liking things i don't like

>> No.4839464

>>4839462
Capcom beat em ups were better games. Some of the Konami ones were very popular due to the big license without being trash game, like TMNT, Simpsons, X-Men... But as games they are lacking in comparison.

>> No.4839504

>>4839235
>>4839134
Don't get me wrong I loved the TMNT arcade games (but was disappointed by the console versions). But I can't deny it was fundamentally designed to be a quarter-gobbling multiplayer button-masher. The game is paced and balanced perfectly so that any casual player can join in feel like they're doing pretty well and not really notice how often they're taking damage from bullshit cheap shots. Before they know it they're out of lives and it's their friend's turn to pitch in a quarter and take over Rafael. It's really fun and a fantastic game for kids to play at a party with a group of friends. But people shouldn't be deluded into thinking it was some kind of true hardcore gameplay and that later ezmode console games like SOTN are really that much different simply because they aren't designed around pay to play.

>> No.4839537

>>4839407
> it's difficult if you want to play well, that is not die constantly like a bitch.
It really sounds like you've never played the game. TMNT does not encourage learning to play well even a little bit. It deludes you into thinking you're playing well but cheap shots you frequently. I'm sure you have fond memories of beating the game but I'm equally sure those fond memories downplay the number of quarters you and your friends dumped into that thing to win. If you watch a TAS of this game, you'll see that the program wins by knowing exactly where every enemy spawns in and whacking them with the special attack before they get on the screen. It's possible that somewhere in the US there was a team of teenagers obsessed with TMNT enough to get good enough at the game to memorize the spawn location of every enemy and somehow not manage to spend ungodly numbers of quarters on it to get that good. But you were certainly not one of them.

> give me a single interview where developers
lmao as if fucking developer marketing interviews mean shit anyway. In 1989 Ninja Turtles was a show watched by children with characters aimed at children. It was a game played by children, which you would know if you had been there.

>> No.4839554

>>4839454
You know how arcade trolls are, pretending as if the only alternatives in the world are "cinematic garbage" and arcade games with pure unadulterated quality gameplay that were never ever designed around milking revenue from suckers.

>> No.4839556

>>4839537
>If you watch a TAS of this game, you'll see that the program wins by knowing exactly where every enemy spawns in and whacking them with the special attack before they get on the screen

No shit, why in the world would anybody let enemies live for longer than they have to in a SPEEDRUN video? Bringing up TAS is completely disingenous and does nothing to strengthen your point. Watch some 1ccs, it's very doable and you see the enemies attack there plenty. Konami games are just generally poorly designed, though it's by no means restricted to them. It's like saying Final Fight isn't meant to be beaten on one credit because of bosses like Sodom.

>lmao as if fucking developer marketing interviews mean shit anyway.

Yes they do mean shit as developers DO state that certain design decisions were made simply to please arcade owners who wanted money. It being for children means nothing, Cadillacs and Dinosaurs was made based on a children's comic/tv show too.

>> No.4839561

>>4839382
Such God awful taste. Embarrassing

>> No.4839564

>>4839554
Yeah, this board is really awful with all these people lately. The only safe threads are JRPG threads.

>> No.4839573

>>4839554
They WERE about "milking revenue" no one denies this, except they were about milking revenue from a large number of player types. This isn't a negative at all, though, it's exactly why arcade games were so good. It was the right set of pressures, where they had to balance arcade owner needs with the needs of the players and their own vision of what good games are.

>> No.4839604

Guess what, console games ask of your money. The difference is that the arcade model made for better games on average as >>4839573 points out.
And I'm talking about games, not barely CYOA movies.

>> No.4839605

>>4838105
I'm 37 and SOTN is literally top 5 all time and played thousands of games.

>> No.4839617

>>4839556
I'm not talking about Final Fight, I don't know that game too well.
> Konami games are just generally poorly designed,
On the contrary, I'm saying it's extremely well designed assuming the design goals are (a) casuals having fun (b) keeping the quarters flowing. The game is very fast-paced, flashy, and chaotic. Whenever you take damage, the game leaves no time to dwell on the mistake or consider what you might have done differently (other than for obvious traps like that sign that falls on top of you out of nowhere). The entire tone is "gotta keep it moving" and so long as you have 3-4 players in the game that's exactly what will happen. And if you don't, you'll be swarmed by enemies.

Double Dragon for instance is not designed so much like this. Yes you can get infinite lives with enough quarters but it's paced more slowly, is balanced for 2 players rather than 3-4, and you have the interesting weapon pick-up dynamic that can work to the player's advantage significantly (but can also fuck you up if you get too distracted trying to pick up a weapon that you take damage). I've played less DD than TMNT but I also recall fewer bullshit hitboxes from enemies.

>> No.4839618

Konami was one of the biggest arcade companies back then, so understandably some posters here will be fans of their arcades.
The issue I see is how many here seem to ignore their arcade legacy and instead only mention their easiest and most cinematic console games. It's a trend arcade fans dislike, and it's not so hard to see why.
We're seeing the division between people that play for gameplay and people that play for other stuff (atmosphere, plot, aesthetics...)

>> No.4839634

>>4839617
Again I point out that the vast majority of what you said applies to a fuckton of other beat 'em ups, they also don't leave much room to dwell on mistakes (or you'll get comboed), they also force you to keep moving because you get swarmed and killed in seconds if you don't, they are also very fast paced (Cadillacs is an example), flashy and chaotic (Final Fight has a crapton of enemies on screen at once, moreso than TMNT). Actually it applies even more so to other games because they don't have a free attack that one shots most basic enemies that you can spam like TMNT does. Janky hitboxes and mechanics is very common for Konami, this does not make the game better when playing casually. Just pure difficulty alone will make sure that players keep dropping credits, you know, like in any other game in the genre. Unless you want to suggest that none of these games were designed for hardcore players, none of this means anything.

>> No.4839653
File: 4 KB, 299x69, WHY DON&#039;T YOU TRY HARD.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4839653

Here's some food for thought. Don't take us arcade lovers as trolls, though.
The following is important if you actually play games for their mechanics, gameplay, whatever you want to call it. The interactivity.
I'm going to logically prove that challenge is absolutely integral to gameplay and why it is absolutely desirable (unless you don't want to bother with the game and want to just experience a plot or something, but at that point go to a passive medium like books or movies).
Imagine a racing game. If you remove all of the challenge, it's just a straight line where the only thing you have to do is press the accelerator button. No way to fuck up, no way to improve the time, nothing. (But hey, shiny graphics, right?)
What happens when you start adding some challenge to the game? Some curves, terrain, maybe AI opponents that bump into you... You see, challenge IS game design. How you construct a challenge is essentially the definition of game design.
Of course, just challenge isn't everything. Imagine the only part of the track is a sideways jump that's almost impossible to do (you need to make a frame perfect input with a completely specific angle in your analog controller), and not only that, the jump changes slightly every time tou try with RNG. This is challenging, but it's not engaging game design.
Anyway. So what happens when games are made easier? Too easy, even if not to the extreme I mentioned. Suddenly the mechanics are no longer engaging, and the only way to have fun is to either make up self-imposed challenges or, you guessed it, playing for stuff not related to the mechanics like aesthetics.
This is why fans of arcades dislike easy games. They play for the mechanics, and are tired of an industry that has abandoned them. Then you get to this thread, a beloved arcade company, with posts only praising their easy cinematic games... You see?

>> No.4839684

>>4839604
>>4839573
Arcade games are still made this way. I happened to be in Dave&Busters a few months ago and played some kind of zombie FPS. It was designed specifically to fuck over someone who tried to be good at it by unexpectedly jerking the camera around, while also adhering to the "gotta keep it moving" principle where players have no impact whatsoever on whether they move through the game. The gameplay is: shoot at zombies for 30 seconds, camera jerks, shoot zombies for 30 more seconds, camera moves again and game switches your weapon to a lead pipe for a different scenario, then back to shooting. The scenarios continue to advance whether you shoot lots of zombies or few.

It's chaotic and while there's obviously skill required in aiming and shooting the zombies, and failure to shoot zombies means you take damage, that's all there is to gameplay and elements are designed specifically to keep better shooters confused and off balance so that casuals won't feel so bad, and that everyone will keep using up their credits.

There's no way any console or PC owner would really want to play a game like that at home. Any real FPS game offers a far superior experience in every way except being able to aim physical hardware.

>> No.4839685

>>4839653
> I'm going to logically prove that challenge is absolutely integral to gameplay and why it is absolutely desirable
No one is saying challenge isn't important. It's just arcadefags have a comically narrow-minded view of what counts as worthwhile challenge.

>> No.4839690

>>4839684
That's an example of a not so good arcade, there are many better alternatives that aren't like that. That was cherrypicking

>> No.4839692

>>4839685
SotN is way too easy though. Classicvanias aren't arcade-tier of challenge but they prove enough to be engaging. SotN was made to be a walking simulator and absorb the pretty castle and music, the game itself is just mind numbingly uneventful.

>> No.4839695

>>4839684
Sounds like an unnecessarily shitty version of House of the Dead. You're not getting it though, my post was saying that this is NOT how arcade games were made. They have to be visually impressive and have good game feel to attract players, be difficult enough to make money, fair enough to not put off players (and so the devs don't feel like pieces of shit) and deep/replayable enough to keep the good players coming for a very long time, short enough for the session to not feel like a chore. Most of these were emphasized because of the arcade business model, not in spite of it.

>> No.4839697

>>4839695
I think they already know this and you're just being trolled, my man

>> No.4839701

>>4839690
Hardly. I went into an arcade with my wife and we played 2 games. That one and Mario Kart. It was a random choice, not a cherry-picked one and it's obvious that the game was designed with the same principles as TMNT-like beat-em-ups.

> Again I point out that the vast majority of what you said applies to a fuckton of other beat 'em ups
Maybe, I would have to analyze them more closely to determine whether you're deluded about how casual those other beat-em-ups were or whether there's some important difference from TMNT.

>> No.4839704

>>4839701
>Mario Kart arcade
Fucking really, man. You know better than this
I'll tell you just one well known example: the Gradius franchise.

>> No.4839710

>>4839701
So essentially you don't actually know much about arcade games are are going off your assumptions? Most applies to Final Fight, which has a secret ending for a 1cc fyi. And it's one of the more "unfair" ones. You're essentially saying they're casual because you said so, or more precisely because you play them that way. It's frankly quite stupid to say arcade games were designed for just one demographic.

>> No.4839724

>>4839697
>>4839695
I'm not trolling. The positives of the arcade model are being way oversold. Consider a game like Actraiser. That's a game with plenty of challenge that just wouldn't work at all with the arcade model.

>> No.4839728

>>4839724
ActRaiser would work better as an arcade game (Proffesional Mode btw) because the """sim""" sections are boring 0 challenge waiting messes.

>> No.4839729

>>4839710
>It's frankly quite stupid to say arcade games were designed for just one demographic.
I agree, which is what the retards spewing shit about cinematic garbage are implying. Some arcade games (like TMNT) were designed more for casuals. I'm not saying all of them were, but I am saying that the model isn't some kind of panacea of perfect developer pressures that results in good games.

>> No.4839731

>>4839728
And here it comes out, the arcadefags cripplingly narrow-minded view of what counts as worthwhile challenge.

>> No.4839732

>>4839729
>casuals
This wasn't even a demographic back then. "Casual" in the way you're using that word wasn't even a thing back in /vr/ times.

>> No.4839736

>>4839724
The strategy/sim half of Act Raiser no, but the action-platformer half only exists because of the arcade model. Why else do you think it has continues, lives, score and time? Early console games were all just trying to recreate the arcade magic, but quickly turned into bullshit because the incentives that shaped arcade games simply weren't there.

>> No.4839738

>>4839729
No, arcade games are built for casuals and hardcore players at the same time without sacrificing anything. Console games used to be like this when they looked up to arcades, but over time this was lost and they only pander to casuals now.
>>4839731
>narrow-minded
Dude, those sim sections are painfully simple. I wouldn't have a problem if they were better, but they consist of a lot of literal waiting.

>> No.4839739

>>4839729
It actually is. Because let's say TMNT was aimed at casuals, the fact that it's an arcade game means it still has to be challenging which is why it's still a somewhat fun game, Konami jank aside, if you play it without feeding it credits. It's not even like a western arcade game, a 1cc of TMNT is doable.

>> No.4839740

>>4839732
Sure it was and I've already described it using terms appropriate for the time. Casuals in the late 80s and early 90s were: Kids at birthday parties. Kids killing time at the mall while their parents were shopping. Maybe teenagers on a date. Many of them might have been quite skilled at console games but only got to play in the arcades for a few hours once every couple of months at most. So they couldn't dedicate the time it would take to really master a hardcore game.

>> No.4839749

>>4839740
You do realize that people like that couldn't sustain the model alone, right? By definition, if they only come to play occasionally, the machines wouldn't be profitable. This is why they had to be nice games to replay for more dedicated players.

>> No.4839751

>>4839738
> No, arcade games are built for casuals and hardcore players at the same time without sacrificing anything
They sacrifice flexibility of time and pacing. I disagree on how bad the world-building aspects of Actraiser are, but again supposing they aren't. Arcade games just don't have the flexibility to have interludes where you can think about how you want to develop your character for the next level. Arcade games have to keep moving. They have to be all action all the time. While obviously you can go way too far in the other direction with cutscenes and cinematics, there is a LOT of room in between for interesting and challenging gameplay.

Zelda wouldn't work
Metroid wouldn't work.
Super Mario World wouldn't work (though if you disabled/limited backtracking and freedom to move on the map it could work)
Dark Souls wouldn't work.
SimCity wouldn't work.
Civilization wouldn't work.
X-Wing/TIE Fighter wouldn't work.
Tecmo Super Bowl wouldn't work.

>> No.4839753

>>4839749
> You do realize that people like that couldn't sustain the model alone, right?
Of course it could. The point of casuals is to hit a broad market, hence the reason why most everyone remembers that TMNT arcade game. Everyone played it. Consider an arcade that had 4 birthday parties every weekend. The TMNT machine would be jam-packed with kids the whole time, making a killing. But it would always be a different pile of kids.

>> No.4839754

>>4839751
>They sacrifice flexibility of time and pacing
I consider compact games better than bloated experiences, though, so this is a plus for me.
>interludes where you can think about how you want to develop your character for the next level
Why do you need this? I don't get it.

Exploration games wouldn't work, that's for sure. This is why I said the arcade model was the one that made the best games on average, not the only one that has to exist.

The thing is, things were better when the home market had some arcade influence, you had more variety. Nowadays there aren't arcade style games out there really, and stuff like exploration games have become worse over time since they no longer feel pressured to be games and a challenge (the arcade influence no longer there).

>> No.4839756

>>4839753
>But it would always be a different pile of kids.
Nah, it was a mix of stuff like that and regular players.

>> No.4839759

>>4839753
So a game is casual because it's popular?

>> No.4839760

>>4838268
>behave yourself
Fuck off and die, Cee

>> No.4839761

>>4839754
> I don't get it.
Obviously

>> No.4839762

>>4839759
No it was popular (and successful) because it was casual and kids would have a blast playing it with their friends.

>> No.4839763

>>4839751
Yes which is why it's the ideal for action games which you haven't noticed arcade games pretty much exclusively are. desu though consoles aren't very good for strategy/rpg/sim games either, that's what PC is for

>> No.4839764

>>4838580
You are seriously over estimating it.

>> No.4839768

>>4839763
This is why consoles started as pretty much "(downgraded) arcade ports machines"

>> No.4839770

>>4839762
But most popular arcade games were very popular with kids, including something like Gradius which is by no means a casual game. Children are easily impressed, I mean did you actually care about your childhood games being hard? I sure didn't, I wasn't even considering difficulty as part of the equation when determining if I enjoy a game or not really.

>> No.4839776

>>4839770
Hell, Mortal Kombat was stupidly popular (due to the aesthetics) and the games just murder your ass with cheating AI. Can't credit feed them.

>> No.4839780

>>4839762
>it was casual
Again, this word wasn't used back then in the way you're using it. How old are you?
Kids played whatever was appealing to them mainly from a visual standpoint. That's why people went to arcades, to see the games with the best graphics and presentation. Not to play easy games.
Kids could have a blast with hard games too, anon.

>> No.4839791

>>4838091
Batman Returns
Silent Hill
Metal Gear Solid
Ninja Turtles
Castlevania

>> No.4839795

>>4839780
>Kids could have a blast with hard games too, anon.
Why is this no longer the case. RIP

>> No.4839796

How many of you actually discovered you could pull this shit back in the 90s? I'm willing to bet none of you. https://youtu.be/KzuxTP4LWts?t=8m46s

>>4839780
What the fuck difference does it make whether the word was used or not? I'm using the word because it's something any non-retarded english-speaker should understand. I explained what I meant by the word so either keep up or fuck off.

>>4839770
I didn't consider difficulty consciously. But certainly if I put a quarter in a game and got Game Over 30 seconds later, I usually wasn't too inspired to keep playing. Lots of games were like that most of which I don't remember. TMNT on the other hand you could usually play for a decent amount of time before you died, and then you could watch others continue the game if you ran out of coins. It was very casual-friendly.

>> No.4839801

>>4839795
Do you even know anything about what kids play today?

>> No.4839803

>>4839796
>it's something any non-retarded english-speaker should understand
Getting nervous anon? Calm down.
It matters because it tells me something about your mindset that you're so obsessed with using the word "casual", especially on this board.
>I explained what I meant by the word so either keep up or fuck off.
Damn anon. I just don't buy your explanation. Kids enjoyed "hardcore" games back then.

>> No.4839805

>>4839801
No, maybe you can tell me. What do you play today?

>> No.4839808

>>4839796
My uncle was a total casual (has almost never played anything other than arcades, and he only played for a bit) and to this day he remembers the jab cancel trick in Final Fight. People at the arcade shared tricks to get better at the games, they enjoyed the challenge.
This is in Spain, maybe in your country it was different, but I doubt it.
>But certainly if I put a quarter in a game and got Game Over 30 seconds later, I usually wasn't too inspired to keep playing. Lots of games were like that most of which I don't remember.
This is only true if you suck MAJOR ass and never stuck to playing anything to improve general skills.

>> No.4839820

>>4839796
>But certainly if I put a quarter in a game and got Game Over 30 seconds later

Thats most people's first experience of playing Gradius right there, and yet its more popular than later shmups that let you continue to your heart's content

>> No.4839824

>>4839820
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcZzlPGnKdU

>> No.4840074

MGS, Super Castlevania IV, Gradius. Sparkster. Mystical Ninja Starring Goemon. Suikoden II. Snatcher.

These fuckers, KONAMI, had amazing series, amazing titles. They threw it all away. Those days are gone completely. You could even say they had more good series than Nintendo or Capcom, and they still managed to fuck it up so badly. It's a sad tale to tell.

>> No.4840083

>>4840074
>including trash like MGS, Snatcher and Suikoden but leaving out Contra and their bmups

Get the fuck out plebcunt, only arcade and arcade-style games are allowed on /vr/.

>> No.4840086

>>4840083
No they aren't. Eat a dick or seven.

>> No.4840093

>>4840086
Yes they are, because I said so, bitchnigger.

If you play games for ANYother reason besides gameplay, you should mcfucking kill yourself.

>> No.4840106

>>4840083
>>4840093
Nice falseflag, butthurt storyfag