/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.4797034]

Are Cave's shmup games as bad as people claim to be?

[Anonymous No.4797126]

i want to know what the devs intended. how are arcade monitors connected to arcade pcbs, composite or rgb?

[Anonymous No.4797127]

Nobody except a few shitposters calls Cave's shmups bad

[Anonymous No.4797136]

What's a cave shmup.
Is that the genre that's been assigned to games like Gradius or something?

[Anonymous No.4797325]

>>4797034
As >>4797127 points out,
Maybe some people here are tired of the /vg/ faggots who seem to only like Cave shooters (and Touhou). Also, while their games are pretty well made and deep in their mechanics, understandably some fans of older styles of shooters may not like Cave as much, and for a while pretty much the whole market was Cave and games similar to that (now the market is dead)
>>4797136
It's a company that mostly made these.

[Anonymous No.4797394]

>>4797034
I'm fine with Cave's work. I just wish their style didn't become the unofficial template for shmups, nor the sacred cow of shmup players.

[Anonymous No.4797475]

>>4797325
>(now the market is dead)
Thanks to Cave.

[Anonymous No.4797485]

>>4797475
Not at all, they carved out a niche for themselves in a dying market and then kept it on life support for a good while. Nowadays shit inspired by Cave is the main source of newcomers. Bullet hells killing shmups is a very dumb meme.

[Anonymous No.4797532]

They aren't bad, they are alright. I am not huge into the genre but I generally like things from Takumi and Psikyo much more so than Cave, but that is when it came to vertical scrolling. I generally enjoy horiztonals a lot more.

[Anonymous No.4797551]

>>4797034
I've never seen anyone sincerely hate Cave or their games as much they hate their supposed influence on the industry.

[Anonymous No.4797554]

>>4797551
>their supposed influence on the industry.
I love it when I hear kids drop this one. What "influence on the industry" are they even talking about? Cave WAS the industry at the time. The industry had been dead for ages by that point. Dads joke about the coming of SF2 being the death knell for shmups, but there's more truth in that than people realize.

[Anonymous No.4797558]

>>4797034
All shmup games are pretty bad, traditional shmup fans hate tgem because they tried something new.

[Anonymous No.4797559]

>>4797558
wow impressive, you managed to not get a single accurate thing into a post.

[Anonymous No.4797571]

>>4797034
They went to shit the moment they started incorporating moe girls into shooters. That was an unforgivable mistake and only attracted the worst kind of degenerate pedophile audience.

[Anonymous No.4797574]

>>4797559
You're butthurt from hearing the truth.

[Anonymous No.4797575]

>>4797571
So you blame Konami for Parodius then. CAVE did not commit this sin until many years after.

[Anonymous No.4797589]

>>4797575
Parodius isn't pedophilia.

[Anonymous No.4797623]

>>4797589
>there's literally toddlercon in Parodius

lmao at ur life

[Anonymous No.4797692]

>>4797571
>That was an unforgivable mistake

[Anonymous No.4797761]

These shooters stopped being mainstream mainly due to the industry shifting a lot to cater to a potentially bigger audience that doesn't enjoy games for how they play, but for how they look, sound, how's the plot, addiction to unlockables or seeing numbers rise up... Which materialized around 5th gen.
People stopped caring about a game being all good, they wanted "longer" (read: bloated) games. The new focus on not game mechanics led to removing the challenge for those who played for the plot, etc.
Also, the fact that we started to get close to perfect arcade ports of new games then, but with the fact that they were thus credit feedable, this new audience (including reviewers) saw these as pointless short games.
Look up the numbers of consoles sold by generation and you'll se a huge increase during the 5th and 6th generations, which is not correlated with population increase. Those were people not into games before. This pandering became painfully obvious to anyone later with Nintendo's Wii.
Now the average playes doesn't see the point to these. They would actually prefer them if you could unlock ships after each credit fed playthrough, even if the original arcade had all the ships selectable from the start. It's shit like that.

[Anonymous No.4797768]

>>4797575
parodius is ironic so that makes it ok

[Anonymous No.4797771]

>>4797761
To add to this, Cave simply clinged to the remaining niche, a previous posters have pointed out, which was mostly in Japan. Then they just had to stop and make mobile games, which guess how they work? Yeah, in ways to get to these audiences who don't even like playing a game, but come for something else. Thet may even hate the came, but they feel they need to come back because... dailies!
Sorry of this is too tired for some here.

[Anonymous No.4797781]

>>4797623
No, there is not

[Anonymous No.4797787]

>>4797761
Yeah I'm sure the young generation is at fault and not their games for being shit. How do you explain the NES Mini selling in droves, that still had arcade gameplay intact, or the success of extremely difficult much more hardcore than arcade games like Dark Souls?

[Anonymous No.4797791]

>>4797034
whoever is claiming this is mentally incompetent.
>>4797787
sadly true. there's a lot of trash. I think the mobile gaming world is the purest form of cancer in the entire universe, so im guessing younger generation have grown ok with endless shovelware and expectations are at some deep lows?

[Anonymous No.4797795]

>>4797034
I have never seen anybody really claim their titles are bad but what I do hear is that towards their end the games kind of felt washed out.

[Anonymous No.4797796]

>>4797787
>>4797791
Sure, they have been conditioned to enjoy this crap with shitty consumer policies etc. Souls is not harder that the average arcade, though, unless you count credit feeding.

[Anonymous No.4797801]

>>4797795
Had they stopped at PGM they would be a lot more respected.

[Anonymous No.4797804]

>>4797796
your arcade 1cc can't get interrupted by a hacker invading and instantly killing you, therefore dark souls is harder

[Anonymous No.4797810]

>>4797801
I agree. /thread

[Anonymous No.4797814]

>>4797804
Yes, a person can come in the arcade center and start to annoy you so you lose and he can get to play.

[Anonymous No.4797824]

>>4797804
This situation can be completely averted by just not going human

[Anonymous No.4797858]

A quick review of the retro Cave shooters

DonPachi: As a fan of older shooters, this game was an excellent tribute to Toaplan (not only the '93 Ikeda games; notice the cameo of the bunkers with tanks inside them from Flying Shark) while also starting to innovate in a few ways; a nice send-off to the previous era but looking ahead at the same time. It's my most played Cave title by far. It's a bit unpolished (later game have tighter scoring, and also better linked to survival via multiple extend) but it hits all the right spots for me.

DoDonPachi: My second most played. It's a way tighter game, and probably the best and most influential they have ever done. Not as big of a fan personally of the excess of micrododging starting from 1-5, but it's always a fun experience. While being now a different style of game, I feel it's still firmly within that old school feel; as in, halfway between older shooters and modern bullet hell.

ESP Ra.De.: I love the 2-shot mechanic, it feels very frantic played both for score and just survival. Unfortunately, the scoring is a bit messy with milking, and it's hard to get used to this game's hitbox even after having played it a lot.

Dangun Feveron: This game is fucking amazing, it would probably be my absolute favorite but I haven't played it as much (I first played it way later). It's like an extreme version of the appeal of older shooters, updated with one of the coolest scoring systems. I like how fun it is that much that I can play for score even when I'm not even paying attention or recording it.

Guwange: I last played this yesterday when a friend came home. Showed him some games and liked the look of this game, and I managed to get a clear even with some months of not playing it. It's a unique and fun shooter, though a bit convoluted and gets too micro-dodgy for my tastes later on.

end of part 1

[Anonymous No.4797873]

Progear: Probably their weakest of these. It shows that they had some trouble translating their skills at making shooters to the horizontal perspective, even if it ended up being pretty good still. It feels a bit sluggish, as if they were afraid of making a faster paced hori (you can, check Darius Gaiden after some levels).

DDP DOJ: I like how this and the next game take the mix of older fast patterns and newer slow static ones to new heights. However, it may be argued that they overdid it. This is when they started doing retardedly unfair TLBs and insane conditions to access second loops. Hell, White Label is notoriously cheap with removing your lives then. For those that are very good at these and are bored of lesser challenges, they're great. In fact, they are still very good even without taking this into consideration, but mainly for a 1 loop clear. Also, not a big fan of hyper system.

Ketsui: Aside from what I've previously mentioned, I find this game's patterns quite creative. Scoring is quite unforgiving with the point blanking stuff. But again, still a well made game.

Espgaluda: This is like a knee-jerk reaction to the previous two, it's their easiest game by far. It's still very well put together and can ease in noobies, but I feel this is where they started to abandon their old school roots in favor of making straight bullet hells with only slow patterns, which I'm not that fond of. This would finally materialize in their later games, starting with some of Mushihimesama's modes. I suspect this is why /vg/ 2hufags are such fans of these, they are the closes arcade games to their beloved fap material.

[Anonymous No.4797889]

>>4797858
>>4797873
you forgot mahou otome

[Anonymous No.4797894]

>>4797889
Of course

[Anonymous No.4797897]

>>4797873
I love when people recommend Espgaluda to beginners only for them to get completely devastated at the maid hall section of the final stage

[Anonymous No.4797909]

i was playing "deathsmiles" made in 2007 a little earlier. what a bizarre game. the graphics and music is amazing. even with the system set to easy mode, it's still quite hard.

[Anonymous No.4797913]

>>4797897
At least they can easily get to the final stage, which is much more than you can say for some of their other games.
>>4797909
Haven't played this but I heard it was among their easiest.

[Anonymous No.4797914]

>>4797909
>>4797889
I don't understand why would waifufags had to ruin shooters like that. Wouldn't they feel better playing something that lets you actually see and interact with the girls like a collectible card game or rythm game? What's the appeal of playing a tiny spaceship where you can barely even see the girl or read dialogue that represents their personality.

[Anonymous No.4797917]

>>4797914
It gets their attention initially, animu shit sales, the weeb (otaku in Japan) market is big.
Cave however are doing what they can to survive at this point. Yeah, an arcade shooter with MOBILE controls, le cute girls and progress crap... But it's that or bankrupcy.

[Anonymous No.4797918]

>>4797914
That is the way that things generally developed not exclusive to shooters. Basically you add cute girls for merchandise reasons sell some figurine here and there some fuck pillow, Caspers vaginal fluids soda etc

[Anonymous No.4797920]

>>4797917
>>4797918
That's disgusting. Letting the genre die in the 90s would've been a much better fate than that.

[Anonymous No.4797921]

>>4797918
Indeed. Add the fact that people don't want to actually play games anymore on average as I pointed out here >>4797761 then it's this or die for Cave, sadly.
Housemarque has had a similar fate.

[Anonymous No.4797923]

>>4797914
It's more eye catching on posters and shit I suppose, it also attracted women to shmups more in the early days but I'm not sure if that was still true during the late 90's

[Anonymous No.4797924]

>>4797920
>Letting the genre die in the 90s would've been a much better fate than that.
if you really like the genre then no not really no.

[Anonymous No.4797926]

>>4797920
Yeah, I agree, but these are their jobs I guess. They need to make a living.
Again, if the genre died around Cave's PGM games (it's when the other big companies like Raizing, Psikyo, etc. stopped making these as well) it would have been more "graceful". But games have changed.

[Anonymous No.4797927]

>>4797914
I imagine part of the appeal is exactly that it doesn't dwell on the characters, so it feels less like you're being pandered too.
Although the only waifushit I play is early touhou games, so I wouldn't really know.

[Anonymous No.4797928]

>>4797913
>Haven't played this but I heard it was among their easiest
it is easy compared to other titles they've made from what i've seen. probably a lot of truth in that.
>>4797914
yea i thought the same. the character was too small.. system resolution is 320x240.. so things are a bit blocky for their 3d rendered tiles/sprites at such a ridiculously small size. but the massive monsters/bosses in it are fucking amazing. really well done.

[Anonymous No.4797929]

>>4797923
They tried the woman angle with Ketsui the games artwork is Yaoi esque

[Anonymous No.4797930]

>>4797923
Yeah because attracting females to a male dominated hobby always works out great. Like comic books and mainstream games.
This is precisely why free market capitalism is a terrible idea, they always try to pander to the worst demographs possible.

[Anonymous No.4797931]

>>4797928
Too bad those bosses designs are wasted on such a crappy game.
Cave is talented (even if I'm not a big fan of their later half of games), but people just don't want good games I guess.

[Anonymous No.4797936]

>>4797929
They half assed it, it's like they wanted the characters to be fujobait but also manly enough to not alienate guys.
>>4797930
I'm into free market overall but for some reason it's very shitty for very subjective stuff like arts or hobbies.

[Anonymous No.4797937]

>>4797924
You don't think dying is better than slowly watch it morph into an embarassing deformed shell of its former self?

[Anonymous No.4797940]

>>4797936
Granted, I don't know a better alternative. Just as a disclaimer.

[Anonymous No.4797942]

>>4797937
I don't because plenty of the games still have very solid gameplay and I can look past aesthetics

[Anonymous No.4797943]

>>4797937
Indeed
Though slow my ass, they went straight from competent arcade shooters (even if they had seen better days) to mobile crap.

[Anonymous No.4797946]

>>4797940
The alternative is to kick newfags out of these threads in order to keep the genre as pure as possible. Adapt or perish, we should absolutely not tolerate any differences.

[Anonymous No.4797950]

>>4797946
Go back to /vg/. I got people to know and try Metal Black here recently, and that's almost as far from 2hushit as possible within the genre.

[Anonymous No.4797951]

>>4797937
I want them around so that DEGICA can buy license to shit out more PC ports.

[Anonymous No.4797953]

>>4797930
that's exactly right. gotta keep selling those machines and making a tidy profit
>>4797931
yeah i agree.

[Anonymous No.4797959]

>>4797953
The problem is not the profit. It's that people are rewarded with profit for making garbage, as seen in the game industry. People demand garbage, so garbage is supplied. I'm mad that this has to happen.

[Anonymous No.4797965]

I feel bad for the Psikyo legacy
>Strikers 1945 II,Zero Gunner II
>Nintendo Switch

[Anonymous No.4797969]

>>4797965
I've heard their games have input lag on the Switch, is that true?

[Anonymous No.4797970]

>>4797965
>Strikers 1945 II
eek. not a favourite of mine.

[Anonymous No.4797971]

>>4797970
Their games are quite polarizing, that one i particular has both big detractors and fans.

[Anonymous No.4797973]

>>4797965
Why would you feel bad, they were great games that died with dignity as opposed to CAVE literally whoring itself.

[Anonymous No.4797975]

>>4797973
Psikyo's last release was a manga based strip mahjong game mate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQDMexlV0iQ

[Anonymous No.4797976]

>>4797975
They made those before iirc

[Anonymous No.4797981]

>>4797959
well, it's happened. been happening for decades on all systems. today it's a totally different ball gamem you've got shit-tier level software and it's ass raping your credit card for micro transactions, fantasy currency, scam/loot boxes. here, have some adverts and some performance degrading DRM... people just take it in the ass and say: "can i have some more, sir?"

[Anonymous No.4797985]

JUST

[Anonymous No.4797986]

>>4797981
A shooter is too short and lacks content!
Nevermind the whole game (the good ones, and there were many) is densely packed with carefully designed stages, making it a bang for your time: you may spend less than 60 minutes, but those 60 minutes are amazing to the point of wanting to replay them for their merit alone
How can people be so blind to not see this? Well, maybe it's best to let them enjoy their shitty novels and movies with menial tasks thry woul never do if it wasn't for muh dailies.

[Anonymous No.4797993]

>>4797985
ITT: We trigger /vr/

[Anonymous No.4797995]

>>4797986
I don't think it's the shortness that gets people. Stuff like Cuphead and all those roguelites still sell.

[Anonymous No.4797997]

>>4797985
>explosions on all over the place
Oh yeah it blows alright they were honest.

[Anonymous No.4798000]

>>4797995
cuphead did very well. it's a nice game.

[Anonymous No.4798002]

>>4797995
>roguelites
>replay something to get permanent rewards and not necessarily because you enjoy each playthrough
Guess why. Cuphead isn't terrible but it sold on style alone.

[Anonymous No.4798250]

CAVE is widely considered to be the best there ever was. There are some contrarians and shitposters that don't like them.

[Anonymous No.4798257]

>>4797927
>Although the only waifushit I play is early touhou games, so I wouldn't really know.

The funny thing about Touhou is that, divorced from its fanbase, it's probably the least "waifushit" cute-girl-shmup around. Yes, there are girls galore, but the vibe is more comparable to Puyo Puyo, and is less gaudy than Twinkle Star Sprites. The girls are there and prominent, but they aren't drawn to appeal super hard to the audience in the way something like, say, Idolm@ster or Neptunia girls are. Bosses are video game bosses that just happen to be girls. The playable characters are quintessential video game warriors that just happen to be girls.

Then there's the ultra crude art style that the mainline games use, that actually looks more bizarre and off-putting when sexualized without being put through the "Modern anime" filter that is fanart. If it wasn't for the rabid fanbase, I can imagine Touhou merely being the curious and cute "little sister" of shmups, as it is said to be easier than the average CAVE game, has a distinct atmosphere that's not quite TSS-cute, but still different than the usual military fair, and the dialogue is kind of entertaining in how silly and throwaway it is. Unfortunately, that's not how things played out.

[Anonymous No.4798258]

>>4798002
Plus cuphead has unlockable shots and special types and autosave. You can restart from the beginning of every boss fight infinite times. It's progress system based bullshit for the modern so.y generation.

[Anonymous No.4798262]

>>4798257
>characters JUST HAPPEN to be girls
Then why are they not men or spaceships?
Fuck off with your rationalization Toohoes was always designed to be pandering trash. ZUN is a pedophile and his music sounds like a repetitive cacophony of sounds like the adults from the charlie brown gang.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04

[Anonymous No.4798272]

>>4798262
>Being this mad
Now I just want to tease you.

[Anonymous No.4798275]

>>4798002
>>4798258
Are people really playing these games for the progress systems? Personally I think the big difference is that they don't require any practice. They're very difficult, but you can learn everything you need to know simply by playing them normally.
If years of competitive games have taught me anything it's that the average casual player will never practice anything. They're always up for a challenge, but the second they need to go into training mode to learn something they'd rather just bitch about things about cheap/unfair instead.

Think about how many arcade shmups you've 1cc'd while utilizing a practice mode or savestate practice, and you'll understand why this genre isn't appealing to modern gamers.

[Anonymous No.4798276]

>>4798272
Cotton Boomerang is the best Cotton.

[Anonymous No.4798282]

>>4797136
>Is that the genre that's been assigned to games like Gradius or something?
Cave is a company and shmup is a genre. Their games aren't like Gradius.
>Thanks to Cave.
It only lived for years because of Cave. They're in the business of making money and shmups aren't profitable. Arcades have been dead for decades and arcade style gameplay is completely foreign to what modern video game players are familiar with. Look around and you'll find reviews that say things like "this game is 30 minutes long and costs 20 bucks? wtf?!?! game doesn't even take up my full monitor" People don't even know what 1cc means.

[Anonymous No.4798286]

>>4798272
>>4798276
>cute'em up

[Anonymous No.4798607]

>>4798275
>Think about how many arcade shmups you've 1cc'd while utilizing a practice mode or savestate practice, and you'll understand why this genre isn't appealing to modern gamers.
Though I recognize the usefulness of this, in fact I've never done that. I just play one coin and that's it.
>>4798282
Never forget:
https://gamecritics.com/ben-hopper/giga-wing-review/

[Anonymous No.4798619]

DonPachi and DoDonPachi are incredible. Everything after that is just incomprehensible nonsense to me.

[Anonymous No.4798620]

>>4798619
Yeah, it's like those are the games Ikeda wanted to make and then in order to not repeat himself too much started to experiment.
And post-/vr/ he gave up and Cave started making samey games.

[Anonymous No.4798638]

How come nobody could make a shmup as good as Treasure's holy trinity: Ikaruga, Silvergun, and Gradius V?

[Anonymous No.4798647]

>>4798638
Good games but a I usually say very unique, which makes them not directly superiors to others when compared. There are many shooters and plenty of sub-styles with different appeal to them.

[Anonymous No.4798651]

>>4798638
>How come nobody could make a shmup as good as Treasure's holy trinity: Ikaruga, Silvergun, and Gradius V?
they're all really bad desu mostly only enjoyed by people that don't actually play shmups

[Anonymous No.4798657]

>>4798651
Not him, but you're wrong. You're thinking of people that say they are good but have never played them for varios reasons (review parroting, the looks, the "uniqueness" which solves their problem of sameness they have of the genre they don't even play)

[Anonymous No.4798690]

>>4797136
This post owns, I better see this pasted in every thread about Cave from now on.

[Anonymous No.4798719]

>>4798647
>There are many shooters and plenty of sub-styles with different appeal to them.
You're going to need to dial up the autism a lot if you want to fit into these shmup threads, anon.

[Anonymous No.4798763]

>>4798651
>they're all really bad desu
wrong

>mostly only enjoyed by people that don't actually play shmups
because most other shmups are forgettable trash compared to that which treasure designed

why bother wasting time on lesser shmups when you could be enjoying some brilliant treasure shooters?

[Anonymous No.4798787]

>>4798763
>why bother wasting time on lesser shmups when you could be enjoying some brilliant treasure shooters?
because it's impossible to enjoy them without having exceptionally poor taste in games

[Anonymous No.4798846]

>>4798787
I doubt you could point out at least one flaw in each of the aforementioned shmups. Your posts reek of a lack of experience with the games, and you only slate them because they are more popular and well-received than your generic, rehashed Cave crap. Have you even obtained a decent score in RSG or Ikaruga? How about multi-looping Gradius V? Probably not. You likely haven't even 1cc'd any shmups before, either. You sound like the type who'd rather have pissing contests online than learn the truths about games by playing and mastering them. But whatever, if calling Treasure's shmups bad makes you feel more unique and helps you sleep better at night, go right ahead mate. Just know that nobody will take a sorry wanker like you and your incorrect, unsubstantial opinions on the matter seriously.

[Anonymous No.4798848]

>>4798846

[Anonymous No.4798875]

>>4797761
>or seeing numbers rise up
I fail to understand which side of the fence you are on. Casuals addicted to watching the score go up or hardcore shmup elitists addicted to watching the score go up? Either way, wow how dare an arcade game have an emphasis on scoring.

[Anonymous No.4798882]

>>4797909
>>4797913
>>4797928
Shitter here. Deathsmiles is absolutely brain dead until the very long final stage which kicks difficulty up to nightmare mode. Probably the most retarded difficulty curve next to Gunbird and R-Type Delta that I've played.

[Anonymous No.4798901]

>>4798882
>Deathsmiles is absolutely brain dead
this is only true if you skip the ex stage and don't pick level 3 every time

[Anonymous No.4798902]

>>4797034
Some of em are good. But you have to be genuinely autistic to be able to play them properly.
They cater to a niche within a niche, to the 12 people in Japan that got so good at shootemups in arcades that they had to come up with a new way of challenging them. So they introduced bullet curtains at extreme speed.
Graphically they're amazing, and if you've got an RGB CRT you can really see how much can be squeezed out of a tiny 240p resolution when you have some quality art directiors in charge.

[Anonymous No.4798975]

Can you imagine if other games had started pandering to the hardcore crowd as much as shoot em ups did? Imagine a company like Cave for other genres. It could be incredible.

[Anonymous No.4799063]

>>4798975
Sometimes it pays off to be a pinball fan.

[Anonymous No.4799067]

>>4798875
I was talking about stuff like RPGs

[Anonymous No.4799092]

>>4797034
All shmups play the same and rely on the same "die one thousand times so you can memorize the bullet patterns" bullshit. If you play one, you've played the all. So Cave only makes bad games if you hate shmups as a whole.

[Anonymous No.4799124]

>>4798975
puzzle games and fighters did for a while before going all-in on the casuals

[Anonymous No.4799135]

>>4799092
This.

[Anonymous No.4799820]

>>4799092
Except this isn't true, don't say shit about games you don't play. Games that rely on memorization for pure survival are an excepcion and not the rule (such as R-Type 1 and 2, or stuff like second loops as in Psikyo games, tho by that time you at least halfway now what's coming from beating the first loop). Scoring systems are memory based, but if you're not into that you can easily ignore them in most game, or not focus too much on scoring.
But this is maybe me, perhaps a person with worse pattern recognition or reaction time may be forced to memorize. However, if you play these for a while you get better at that, even if you play new games; skills transfer, which kills your "they're memorization" crap.

[Anonymous No.4799862]

>>4799092
>All shmups play the same and rely on the same "die one thousand times so you can memorize the bullet patterns" bullshit. If you play one, you've played the all. So Cave only makes bad games if you hate shmups as a whole.

You guys need to play this crazy game called Ikaruga!! It's nothing like all the rest of those boring shoot em up games!!

>>4798848

[Anonymous No.4799902]

>>4799862
Indeed! Twin Cobra and Guwange are the same exact game!

[Anonymous No.4799915]

>>4799820
>or stuff like second loops as in Psikyo games
even they have way more rng than given credit for due to the randomly timed zakos.

[Anonymous No.4799923]

>>4799820
Don't waste your breath these mongs think any practice is memorization

[Anonymous No.4799932]

>>4799915
Yeah, you have to memorize though with some RNG. Still, we're talking about second loops here.
>>4799923
Yeah I guess if a game doesn't win automatically after some time of grinding it's unfair for them

[Anonymous No.4801250]

>>4799820
I've put around a couple hundred hours into shmups across all different companies and Touhou on top of that. Never cared for horizontal scrolling games, so no comment there, but no matter what you say you're not gonna beat Mushihime on one credit no matter how much previous experience you have with the genre. The skill might transfer for the first couple levels, but by the time you're reaching the harder stuff and the more ridiculous bosses, there's no way in hell that you can beat those without memorizing.

[Anonymous No.4801262]

>>4801250
No shit, that game has a notoriously nasty end boss, often considered Cave's hardest, and that company is known for retarded final bosses. Talk about a bad example.

[Anonymous No.4801283]

>>4801262
Replace Mushihime with any other shoot em up. Your skills will take you further in a game you've never played before, sure, but anything past level 3 is pushing it.

[Anonymous No.4801292]

>>4797034
shmups are an autistic genre within the already autistic hobby of video gaming.

[Anonymous No.4801328]

>>4801283
>Replace Mushihime with any other shoot em up.
No, because that game has a notoriously retarded endboss, it's one of the exceptions I was talking about and anyway not /vr/. I guess I don't see it like you since I've played these for far more across probably many more years nor have wasted my time with 2hushit
>>4801292
Not as autistic as coming to these places to complain about something you supposedly dislike, Mr. Bait