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/vr/ - Retro Games

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4786392 No.4786392 [Reply] [Original]

I've noticed that this board's perception of Cave is rather mixed. Some love their games, some think they "killed shmups."
I'm a bit in between; while I prefer some other shooters I rather enjoy their earlier ones (DP, DDP, Dangun Feveron) and overall like their vr-legal lineup (up till 2003). However, I'm less of a fan of their later input, as if they didn't know what to do anymore, and they went too much into "bullet hell" territory with too slow bullets.
What are your thoughts on them?

>> No.4786408
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4786408

>>4786392
I cant grasp how a single studio can kill a genre by making videogames of that same genre, specially considering how niche it is compared to many others, by the time shmups started to die out cave was barely starting.

>> No.4786409

Ikeda's garbage was the reason Toaplan had to end up filing for bankruptcy and splinter into several niche companies and doom the shmup genre forever.

FUCK Cave and Ikeda for killing Toaplan, the best shmup developer.

>> No.4786412

>>4786408
I guess they mean they killed how shooters used to be and popularized a style they dislike

>> No.4786417

>>4786409
>Ikeda's garbage was the reason Toaplan had to end up filing for bankruptcy and splinter into several niche companies and doom the shmup genre forever.
Source on that? lol Anyway, I'd say V-V and Batsugun are better than Knuckle Bash at least.

Also, maybe some people mean that Cave overfocused on a niche, dooming the genre. I'm not agreeing here, just saying what I see mentioned.

>> No.4786418

>>4786392
>I've noticed that this board's perception of Cave is rather mixed. Some love their games, some think they "killed shmups."

I've also noticed the board is full of shitposting contrarians.

>> No.4786426

>>4786418
I wouldn't be surprised if some actually disliked Cave's design philosophy, their games are quite different from 80's shooters after all.
But yeah, that seems more probable.

>> No.4786428

Most people claiming that they killed shmups are shitters who barely even play shmups, they just enjoyed Gradius or Thunder Force at some point and think all games should be like them. I agree with you though, their output up to Mushihimesama is top-tier but after they went downhill, though I still really like Futari and Deathsmiles. Guwange, Dangun Feveron, Ketsui and Espgaluda are my favourites

>> No.4786434

>>4786428
Sure, their games (particularly the first half) are undoubtedly well done, I find those quite extreme.
I'm more old school myself but I'm not blind to Cave's quality. The one I've played the most is DonPachi, I guess you can figure out why.

>> No.4786441

>CAVE killed Shmups
>but Touhou also killed shmups
>somebody has to be responsible alright

>> No.4786447

>>4786441
Can't defend Touhou, the fact that it's the most popular series of shooters while them being far from the quality of arcade classics just for having anime girls and a fanbase that mostly doesn't play the games... yeah.
But no, what killed shooters is just a change in the taste of video game consumer, or in other words, new consumers that outnumbered older ones that played for other stuff (progress, plot)

>> No.4786489
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4786489

Will CAVE ever rerelease all their shit?
>Still no Mushihimesama Futari on Steam
>the Cave 360 collection is ungodly expensive
>MAME can't emulate CAVE games since CAVE asked the devs to remove their chip emulation

>> No.4786504

CAVE is fine just give the other guys a try too.

>> No.4786535

>>4786489
Fortunately, their better games IMO are mostly the easiest to play. The later expensive /badly emulated ones are more mixed.

>> No.4786540

>>4786504
I think that may be an issue in other communities but it's not the trend I've observed here.

>> No.4786541

>>4786489
>MAME can't emulate CAVE games since CAVE asked the devs to remove their chip emulation
huh? Cave games seem to work alright, unless they did so recently

>> No.4786552

>>4786447
don't blame Touhou for killing shit, because it didn't. the people who mostly don't play the games wouldn't have been playing shmups to begin with, and the people who do play them get introduced to the genre and might be more likely to try other shmups. its existence is nothing but beneficial.

>> No.4786553

>>4786489
Degica seems like they got bored of porting Cave games. probably my fault for not buying them

now M2 is porting a cave game but M2 is a jerk and only does PS4

>> No.4786570

>>4786552
>don't blame Touhou for killing shit
I don't, keep reading.

>>4786541
Cave games after PGM don't have a well emulated slowdown feature.

>> No.4786575

Whatever your opinions on Cave, I think we can all agree that Fever SOS is their worst game.

>> No.4786589

>>4786575
I actually think Dangun Feveron is one of their better titles. Very unique and fun.
Of their vr-legal games, I'd say Steep Slope Sliders may be the worst. Uo Poko is not much up my alley either.
Shooters-only, hard to say to me. Progear feels the least polished, but I still think it's good.

>> No.4786603

I'm not very educated on this genre. What are considered Cave's best games?

>> No.4786620

>>4786603
DoDonPachi is their most influential one, and still highly regarded. It finally materialized and popularized the "bullet hell" formula that had been building up for half a decade at least.
Nowadays, from what I see western fans prefer DDP DaiOuJou, followed by Ketsui and Mushihimesama Futari, but most if not all of their shooters have their fans. It's the most popular shooter company, and pretty much the only big one left for almost a decade till they stopped making them 5 years ago.

>> No.4786628

>>4786409
>Toaplan, the best shmup developer.

oh boy, how much of a hipster do you have to be to believe that?

>> No.4786629

>>4786628
Tatsujin Oh is total kino

>> No.4786632

I don't really like any of Cave's games besides the Mushihimesama games, they just kind of bore me. Also, not /vr/

>> No.4786634

>>4786628
Not him and they are my favorite. I thought it was more of a cliche than anything, it's not like saying my favorite is NMK or something. I guess the board is changing.

>> No.4786638

>>4786634
Yeah TOAPLAN is by far the average cookie cutters favorite old school shooter developer.

>> No.4786654

>>4786603
Their best title for beginners to start with is Espgaluda. Which is also a pretty good entry point to bullet hell games in general

>> No.4786656

>>4786620
Cool, thanks.

>> No.4786660

>>4786654
I'd even say it's their first game that actually feels like a "modern" bullet hell (a mode in Mushihimesama solidifies this). Their earlier games still feel like a mix of old school and bullet hell. Those fast bullets!

>> No.4786692

>>4786660
The fact that you have the ability to slow down time and bullet cancel in their first game with fast bullets make it a pretty great introduction to their later games. Ketsui remains my favourite game they made but Espgaluda is a pretty close second. Have you tried playing through it in Kakusei overdrive mode?

>> No.4786698

>>4786692
It seems you misunderstood me, it's actually the old school ones that have the faster bullets and the modern bullet hell slower ones. Look no further than some patterns in Toaplan games, particularly pre-93. I said I find early Cave games up to that point still somewhat transitional.

>> No.4786721

>>4786698
I have 1CC'ed several of their later games and can't beat the third level of DDPDOJ so I was a bit confused when I thought you said the newer games were slower. I want to get good at Dangun Feveron but it just won't click with me.

>> No.4786736

>>4786721
By newer I meant after Espgaluda. DOJ (as well as Ketsui) has that mix of slow complex patterns and also fast as shit old school ones, which is why I say Cave still felt in its transitional years then. Then they went full bullet hell.
Dangun Feveron is straight up old school but with an emphasis on scoring.
Not trashing these, I still like bullet hells. Well, arcade ones, some doujin ones are too damn slow, you know what I'm talking about.

>> No.4786771

>>4786736
I never liked Doujins in general. I just don't think a small low budget company or worse yet one guy that only stick to this genre because they can't afford to make any other kind of game can compete with real full-time developers. I mean can you imagine Zun trying to make a game like Steep Slope Sliders. I don't even really like Cave's non shmup games but they clearly did have the option of making something else and chose to go with shooting games. Dojins can't advertise and need a gimmick to get people to talk about them. Be it weird gameplay elements or cute 2D girls.

>> No.4786776

>>4786771
Snow Bros. as previously mentioned in another thread is a nice example of what you're talking about, yes.

>> No.4786796

>>4786776
I am the guy that mentioned Snow Bros in the other thread.

>> No.4786813

>>4786796
Toaplan in particular from reading their interviews didn't start with being a "shooter company" in mind, they just found success with their earlier ones and thus focused on them. But even then they were also trying different stuff (which lead to hilarious shit such as Knuckle Bash).
The thing is, they weren't a big company. In fact, their development style was pretty much indie by modern standards.
I think it's just that things have changed. The arcade environment truly made people with talent shine by being so harsh, while as you say with doujins they can get by with much less.
Sorry if this got a bit off-topic or ranty, I'm OP anyway.

>> No.4786856

>>4786628
Theirs this one Spanish guy...

>> No.4786858

>>4786856
I haven't posted in some months and you still remember me? Boy, this place is smaller than I thought.

>> No.4786894

>>4786409
>Toaplan, the best shmup developer.
RIP - They made some great platformers too, like wardner and snow bros :(

>> No.4786906

>>4786894
And some great beat 'em ups
Okay, not