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/vr/ - Retro Games

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File: 36 KB, 220x194, 2D_Mario_&_3D_Mario.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4785871 No.4785871 [Reply] [Original]

What is it about 2D Games aging better than 3D games

Other than graphics wise
What is it about 2D gameplay that makes them age better?

>> No.4785875

It's much more difficult to program 3D movement that feels good.

>> No.4785880

>/VR/ consensus:games don't age
>Redditor: I know, what if I make it about 2D vs 3D, then I can say games age :^)

Fuck off.

>> No.4785881

>age better

>> No.4785923
File: 101 KB, 399x369, auty.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]


>> No.4786084

>/VR/ consensus
No such thing, /v/.

>> No.4786605
File: 18 KB, 246x267, 1511569882694.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>/VR/ consensus

>> No.4786612

Most games with 3d graphics have bad graphics and bad animation. All there is to it, really.

>> No.4786619

You smoking crack /v/ crossposter? Is it time we shit out another PAL vs NTSC thread

>> No.4786639
File: 804 KB, 1027x1294, agedbadly.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Only idiots who don't understand English try to say things don't age.

Many early 2D games also aged badly. Many early 3D games aged badly for similar reasons. It's not surprising.

>> No.4786651

Survivorship bias.

>> No.4786659

I'm more likely to pick up 2D games to the present, if just because of control/camera problems. They've never been solved. Ever. Then you have to consider whether some combination of awful framerate/FOV/headbob/post-processing gives you nausea. After the QoL stuff is out of the way, please for the love of god tell me I'm not platforming in first-person. Of course, all this necessitates gratuitous controllers. The only time I want to see sticks is if I'm playing Robotron.

>> No.4786725

Because at their peak 2D games had more artistry and design than most 3D games do nowadays . But the industry heads decided that 3D was the future no matter what so studios were pushed to make sub par 3D games instead of beautiful 2D games until 2D games all but died.

>> No.4786764
File: 269 KB, 1920x1080, ori-screenshot17jpg-6e467a.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

They hit a lull for a bit but nowhere near died.

>> No.4786791

While I don't want to discuss non retro games its the players who are to blame. Masterpieces like Hard Corps Uprising not selling well is going to lead to developers not caring about 2D games.

>> No.4786792


>> No.4786820
File: 103 KB, 1024x576, Cuphead_Mermaid.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

But it all balances because the massive success of other ones make them care more.

>> No.4786834

Am I missing something here? That game looks fully 3d to me.

>> No.4786946

its 2.5D

>> No.4786993
File: 159 KB, 800x600, redalert.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

2d games look as good as they are going to look when they are designed, you can't render them at a higher rez to look better and if you go much higher than 320x480 the pixel art starts to look tiny so newer tech doesnt have that much benefit but on the other hand if you play a saturn 2d game then go back to nes it can make the nes game look dated

>> No.4787258

>implying Little Samson looks dated in comparison to everything on the Saturn

>> No.4787286

A lot of Saturn games, 2d ones, look very dated. In the sense that they could only have been made in the mid-late 90s.

>> No.4787516

2D games are typically more pick up and play. 3D games are more ambitious and bloated.

>> No.4787828

Because OP is a cherry-picking faggot.

>> No.4787946

Most 3D games for the ages don't qualify as retro.

True, though this is largely due to way the constraints and features of the 2D consoles encouraged particular types of games. Console platforms in the late 80s and early 90s were specifically designed to be good at rendering 2D sprites on 2D backgrounds and scrolling those backgrounds across the screen. There was a very natural analogy between sprites on a background and game pieces on a board. So most games were, at the very least, designed to be games.

Note how few "simulators" were ever ported to (much less designed for) the old 2D consoles. You had a few flight games like Top Gun (NES) or Pilotwings(SNES), but those were nothing like the attempts at realistic flight simulators that appeared on PC like the Spectrum Holobyte F-16 Falcon series.

>> No.4788059

Games absolutely age, but it's about style not 2D vs 3D. Realism ages, style doesn't. Look no farther than Wind Waker vs Twilight Princess. Twilight is an ugly peice of shit that gets uglier with each day. WW looks fan fucking tasting top this day and it will still look fantastic in 100 years.

For 2D just look at any of the shit that tried to look realistic like Mortal Kombat or Doom Troopers. They're fucking disgusting.

>> No.4788119
File: 2.36 MB, 471x403, R-type (Spectrum).webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Modern 2D games don't look that much better than games on 16 bit systems. Meanwhile the difference between modern 3D games and 5th gen games are night and day.

Plus, people ignore 2nd gen and 8-bit computer games in these threads.

>> No.4788124

I sort of agree, but it feels like that only applies to the already ugly games getting uglier, which is true of all your examples. Best counter example I can think of is the counter strike series which I think gets uglier with each instalment.

>> No.4788130

The arcade version of R-type looks great and you posted an awful port.

>> No.4788137

Are you surprised? Welcome.

>> No.4788138


>you posted an awful port

That's my point. Systems like the 2600 and Spectrum are a better analog to early 3D consoles than the NES.

>> No.4788160

>Realism ages
More pedantically: best-effort attempts a realism on limited hardware ages poorly. (And we still don't have the skill to render realistic animated human faces well)

>> No.4788162

But starfox is still a top super nintendo game

>> No.4788730

2d objects don't age because of our perceptions. 2d is constant, never changes. we have higher expectations of 3d because we continually see the evolution of it on a daily basis.

>> No.4788780

Skill based games vs exploration games.

Most 2d games are skill based, whereas most 3d games are exploration based. Skill based games hold up better because they're not as reliant on graphics to entertain the player.

When you play a skill based game, you might ask yourself "what new challenges await". However when you play an exploration based game, you might ask "what new sights might I see."

When the graphics become outdated, exploration games lose their luster because the sights you might see are no longer wondrous.

>> No.4788932

Muh realism should be reserved to specific genres. The race to make everything "so real" will just lead to mundane games.

>> No.4788938

>Most 2d games are skill based, whereas most 3d games are exploration based.

The plethora of adventure games, dungeon crawlers and RPGs say otherwise.

>> No.4789023

None of those genres are skill based.

>> No.4789042

theres less you can work with in a 2d environment so the gameplay was refined faster

>> No.4789181

When virtual reality takes over, most people won't really even process the concept of the distinction between 3d and 2d retro. They'll just be like "pre vr entertainment".

>> No.4789213

I should skin you alive faggot

>> No.4789248

>Owlboi looks the same as Metal Slug
Nah. It's more detailed than that.

>> No.4789251

>t. Scumsucker who thinks that Dune 2 didn't age
Or maybe you're a weeb who didn't touch any western game in your whole life.

>> No.4789329

Don't kid yourself, your westshit games were always a trash.

>> No.4789486

>320x480 the pixel art starts to look tiny
800x600 is pretty good anon. It also gives you leeway for sprite scaling, unlike what you get in the SNES/Megadrive games.

>> No.4789710

interesting point actually.

>> No.4789714
File: 99 KB, 1024x768, 16_1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Weak bait

>> No.4789715

You picked the one shooter that didn't "age".
Next time pick something like Operation Flashpoint or Soldier of Fortune.

>> No.4789871

The Japanese made the best games in the 80's and 90's, particularly if your tastes are arcade-inclined. This is pretty indisputable, the only genres where they didn't shine were PC stuff for obvious reasons.
It's not "because Japan", it just so happened that they got early into development, got experience and things spiraled from there. Maybe if Space Invaders flopped things would have been very different, with Atari and other western companies dominating then.
And anyway, Japanese arcade games were hardly "weeb". Look no further than the licensed beat 'em ups in the first half of the 90's, all western properties, but developed by say Capcom or Konami.

>> No.4789884

Are you a bad enough dude to rescue President Ronnie?

>> No.4789887

Then an even weaker comeback? Come on man, at least try or this isn't any fun.

>> No.4789956
File: 164 KB, 551x491, 1478186887225.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

The "games don't age" argument has always been retarded, overly literal autism.
Like you somehow believe you're correcting people by saying it's our perception that changes, not the games.
Of course that's the case, that's what's meant by "games aging." Nobody literally believes old games physically turn into worse versions of themselves over time, everyone is already thinking of it in terms of public perception to begin with.

>> No.4789978

What they're saying is that your perception shouldn't change and you should enjoy every game as you did back then. And if you aren't enjoying tank controls or can't play Atari era arcade games for hours you are a nu-retro JRPG-loving pretender hipster.

Doesn't make it any less autistic or retarded, but still.

>> No.4789984

>nu-retro JRPG-loving pretender hipster.
But that's the average /vr/ poster, or at least the crossboarders. Can't deny this since this is what the majority of threads and posts consist of, and you can sense the overlap in the style o humor and thread with /v/ and the like
We have five FFVII threads up at a time but then look at my thread >>4786248

>> No.4789991

You're going to become a meme at this rate. There's a shmup thread up at any given time, try one of those instead of bitching about FFVII being more popular than your obscure arcade games

>> No.4789998

>FFVII can have 5+ active threads at a time
>arcade shmups? sorry, post in the general
And those aren't obscure at all. Whatever.

Back on topic, it's easy: 2D games haven't progressed much post-/vr/ so it's hard or them to age at all, even if a person believes in game aging.

>> No.4790008

I'm going to hazard a guess that unless you were a teenager living in Japan during the late 90s, or have a fetish for collecting shmups, you've never fucking heard of either of those games.

>> No.4790015

>posters on 4chan are like posters on 4chan
>this is confusing
>this is bad

>> No.4790018

Man, no need to insult games from a genre you're not into just because they aren't spammed everywhere on general gaming discussions. This board is constantly having threads about super obscure, not even translated by fans JRPGs and noone bats an eye.
Yeah, I get it, this place is not much into these, no need to insist.

About the aging topic >>4789248
Metal Slug is one of those games that definitely suffers from its hardware. The series largely runs rather poorly, with 30FPS instead o 60 and very bad slowdown. You can overclock them on MAME to solve the slowdown issue, though.

>> No.4790051
File: 24 KB, 284x200, Altered_Beast.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

A lackluster 2d game can still age badly, like anything else. But I do agree in general a lot of 2D games in particular arcade style ones hit a wall. Bullet hell gave shmups a little more freshness for a while but that's old now too.

>> No.4790060

There are very few 2D games that don't fall into
>I like it
>I don't like it
and then fall into "This might have been good then but after playing some later games I find it worse". In fact, I can't think of an example right now, though I'm sure there are a few.
However, I'm very lenient since oldschool arcade style games are my passion.

>> No.4790078

No one else whines like a little bitch in every other thread that no one wants to talk about their favorite game today.

>> No.4790089

Sure, have your echo chamber, I'll shut up. Just move on.

Also, about >>4790051
I find Altered Beast to be quite fun. It's certainly old school in terms of mechanics even for when it came out, but that doesn't bother me.

>> No.4790116
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I think there are a great many games like that. Though I'm biased in the other direction since single player arcade games were games I had fun with at arcades but grew mostly bored of at home.

Even for other genres though there were plenty of games I played the heck out of that don't hold up so well anymore.

>> No.4790119

It's fine if it doesn't bother you that altered beast aged badly, but syaing that means it doesn't misses the point.

>> No.4790140

What are your examples?
Mortal Kombat is a series I've never liked, it's 100% style over substance and I'm not into that.
No, I don't think it has aged, at least to me. I find games like that (one plane, autoscrolling beat em ups with short, endless loops) quite fun and timeless. This age stuff in the end is subjective.

>> No.4790271 [DELETED] 

3D Mario is a retardation. Retarded look, retarded animation, retarded voice, retarded people who played them 1 year after buying these games.

>> No.4790294

I don't really believe in the whole "aging" thing, because these sort of 5th gen 3d games looked awful at the time. They presented new dimensions of gameplay (sometimes, actually usually they sucked). But I never looked at a 3d game and though "this looks amazing" until the Playstation 2 era.

>> No.4790363

Mortal Kombat and Altered Beast both aged badly irregardless of what you think of them.

>> No.4790387


>> No.4790391

I like how Altered Beast plays and I have 0 nostalgic connection to that game, in fact I first played it 1-2 years ago. I'm just way into that style of game.
Mortal Kombat on the other hand is poor mechanically (very boring AI to fight against, very little depth for multiplayer), SFII came BEFORE and it's miles better. Altered Beast is simple, but good if that's what you like. People expect it to be like Final Fight or something but it's not, it's more akin to Kung Fu Master. Those games have a unique and valid appeal to me and not directly inferior versions of later games.

>> No.4790397

OFP looks no flatter than Starsiege Tribes. The player models on the other hand...

>> No.4790502

Yeah, they aged badly.

>> No.4790507

Nice arguments there, mr. Anonymous

>> No.4790535
File: 3 KB, 256x240, Rad Racer (U).png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

You clearly are one of the people who don't really grasp the concept of something aging well vs badly and you keep talking about your personal take on the games so I don't see much point putting effort into my replies. Sorry or whatever.

>> No.4790578

What makes Altered Beast such a badly aged game, then? I'm open to new perspectives.
It seems perfectly fine to me.
Mortal Kombat to me was bad even back then, it just won an audience via shock factor, style over substance.
To show I'm not a "aging doesn't exist" fanboy", there are plenty of lesser ports that, while back then were acceptable if you didn't have access to the original, nowadays there isn't much point in playing a directly inferior version. They served their purpose then but are lesser products now.
There's also games that clearly weren't fit for the hardware they were in, but got the job done. Like fighting games (arcade style) on the Game Boy. Again, now there's very little reason to play them, they're clearly inferior and it's very easy to play better games.

>> No.4790657

Mortal Kombat's graphics were good for the time, though the animations could be a little choppy.

Not him, but I mostly agree with you on Altered Beast, if you look past a few minor issues (eg some goofy sound effects, main character sprites look dated both graphically and stylistically) and accept the genre for the simplistic one that it is. Within those confines you have creative level design, enemy design, and power-ups. So in that sense the game delivers on its premise.

I would say it is a game that has aged "not badly" though it's not exactly a paradigm of timeless design.

Also, I'll say the Sega home console version of the game HAS aged badly in terms of graphics and sound.

>> No.4790691

Yeah, I was talking more about the original arcade, that's what I played.
It's not the best game ever but it's perfectly fine indeed.

>> No.4790752

>it just won an audience via shock factor, style over substance.

That's kinda the point...

>> No.4791067

Shock value usually ages poorly, that's the point. It's dependent on violating specific standards of the time.

>> No.4791298

That's only one of the reasons, but yes it aged badly.

>> No.4791741

>I never looked at a 3d game and though "this looks amazing" until the Playstation 2 era.
When I first saw Mario 64 I legitimately believed I'd begun existing in some crazy Star Trek-esque future world where anything is possible and maybe even my step-dad would stop beating me because hyperrealistic virtual reality Mario existed and extraterrestrial contact and strong AI were probably only weeks away.

>> No.4791937

i didn't think mario 64 was that great because i already played 3d FPS on PC (with voodoo2)

>> No.4791949

Games dont age
That is a fact

>> No.4791953

I am not american, kill yourself faggot
And american games suck dick

>> No.4792509

>t. assblasted weeb
You've just conceded that games age, Mr. Reverse Banana.

>> No.4792532

Agree. There were already impressive looking games in arcades, especially those by Sega or Namco, but what captivated me the most of Mario 64 was the mix of total freedom and how much fun it looked to move around and jump in those levels. Also, the game was full of amazing little things like the penguin race or the hungry piano, unlike anybody had seen in those days.

>> No.4792791

3D just looks shit. It doesn't have the same level of detail and wont for decades to come.

>> No.4792832

It's harder to fuck up a 2d game.

>> No.4792860
File: 2 KB, 256x224, _scheherazade-12.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

You idiot. Plenty of 2D games are about exploration.

>> No.4794131

The whole "games age" argument implicates that the quality of video games is a steady progression, so you can actively look back in time and see how things were inferior. Such a notion is both extremely childish and retarded, as plenty of genres of devolved with time instead of improving. Hence why the "games age" argument is invalid, because art doesn't age. Frog posters really need to be banned on site as your post perfectly illustrates.

>> No.4794146

>The whole "games age" argument implicates that the quality of video games is a steady progression
No it doesn't. Don't be retarded.

Some older games are less enjoyable now than when they were new due to changes in expectations for their genre. That's what games "aging poorly" means. Others are still just as enjoyable because expectations for their genre haven't changed as much, which means they have "aged well". What you're doing is getting hung up on word choice to avoid addressing the points being made.

>> No.4794150

>Some older games are less enjoyable now than when they were new due to changes in expectations for their genre.
It's much easier to talk about if you drop the bullshit about genre expectations.

Some gameplay mechanics are fun in an enduring, timeless way and others aren't. Genre tastes and shit do affect how popular a game is at any given point in time, but doesn't change its innate quality. Mozart for example has fallen in and out of fashion over the years among the navel-gazing intelligentsia but for anyone who takes the time to listen they'll be rewarded with ageless quality, no matter when they listen.

>> No.4794159

3D games were still in their infancy until 2005-ish, and the last decade has largely been developers either recycling the techniques used in games from those eras or just experimenting with the technology. I think we still have yet to even hit the 3D equivalent of the SNES era.

>> No.4794169

It's even easier to talk about if you drop the tortured analogies. We're talking about video games, not music.

>Some gameplay mechanics are fun in an enduring, timeless way and others aren't.
This is exactly what people mean when they talk about games "aging". There are tons of elements of older game design that were accepted and tolerated in their day, whether due to technological limitations or because no one had come up with a better way to do things yet, but that doesn't mean those elements are actually good. Expectations change, and some games weather the test of time better than others.

>> No.4794183
File: 2.88 MB, 640x480, 1996.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

3D didn't get good for consoles until 6th gen. Meanwhile arcade systems were obliterating PC and console graphics since Daytona USA.

>> No.4794240

>There are tons of elements of older game design that were accepted and tolerated in their day
All games have limitations. That's what makes them games. Since I love tortured analogies: The fact that a rook can't move diagonally has nothing to do with fucking hardware limitations, it's because the rules were designed that way.

Games like The Legend of Zelda are designed well within their limitations. It's hard for you to point to something in that game and credibly say that improved technology would have made it unambiguously better, except in the most superficial cosmetic ways (such as a luxury chess set with exquisitely detailed figurines doesn't actually change the gameplay at all). If it's not currently popular because it's fashionable to nitpick minor details doesn't mean the game isn't exceptionally well-designed without any "for its time" qualifiers. The experience of playing the game is still fun to anyone open-minded enough to give it a chance.

Link is an iconic little green elf. The enemies are all distinct and memorable. The environments are varied and meaningful to the gameplay. The secrets are fun to find. The challenges are also varied and require reflexes and hand-eye coordination.

>> No.4794273


No, /vr/ doesn't get to dictate terminology. If that were the case people wouldn't freak out every time they see PSX when people talk about PSX games, and no one would ever say belt scroller.

2D games had a lot of time to get things right. Early 3D games were still figuring out their controls and art style. Once the PS2 hit they pretty much had it down even if smoe devs didn't get the memo.

>> No.4794285


>> No.4794410
File: 65 KB, 764x384, System Shock Controls.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

There are definitely things people no longer tolerate, among them tank controls for humans and no mouselook in first person games. Trying to play system shock using the original control scheme will be torturous for most people nowadays.

>> No.4794514

The very fact that you have to play an older game while keeping "good--for its time" in mind shows how they age.
If Space Invaders came out today, exactly as it was originally, no body would care. That shit is archaic. It's aged.
Still good in a simple,old game kind of way. But it's old, man

>> No.4794747

No it doesn't. It's painful that this concept is too hard for you to grasp, but again you don't get what aging is.

>> No.4794781

Yeah that just means there's been some legitimate advances in design. But even then, tolerance (or lack of it) for a particular control scheme can definitely be a passing fashion. Control scheme preference is highly subjective because once you learn something one way, it feels awkward to change.

Tank controls, for example, feel very natural in Everquest. The game is designed to be an immersive first person experience. The tank controls feel awkward at first if you are accustomed to modern 3rd person RPGs, but once you get used to it, you realize it's not one of the games' real flaws. Changing the controls scheme would not improve the game.

To really evaluate games you have to look past simple tolerances and preferences, because those can be driven by fashion. If anything, bias to current fads is much stronger and harder to control for than nostalgia.

>> No.4794856

>tank controls for humans
Resident Evil and Silent Hill use the poor controls to their advantage and would not be as scary if you could run in circles around enemies.

>> No.4795782

Let's se why

1) 2D art is basically an art. A picture CAN NOT AGE because it's a picture. We still can appreciate drawings made few hundreds of years ago.
2) 3D is good only right now we don't have a better technologies so we thing it's good.
I seen people that were telling that graphics in Horizont zero down or whatever that game was are already bad.
Go figure lol

>> No.4795786

>Games absolutely age, but it's about style not 2D vs 3D. Realism ages, style doesn't.
you are fucking retard
There are a lot of realistic 2D games.
you absolute mong

>> No.4795943

And some legitimate advances in design leave some games very wanting in comparison to other games of the same (or close) genre.

It's like saying that all the games copying principles of, say, Secret of the Monkey Isle and Tiberium Dawn were just a dumb fad with no connection to past or present and that you can easily return to Space Quest and Dune 2 after playing them.

>> No.4796224

Anyone old enough to remember 56K dial up?

It was extremely inconvenient. You had to wait sometimes minutes for a big picture to load or a big file for a game to download. It used to sometimes take a few minutes for an NES ROM to download!

We would never put up with that today and if you could have that experience briefly for a few hours today, you would wonder why people ever did it at all then.

Because there was a progression of expectation! The internet was amazing then, the same way polygonal 3D graphics or weird camera controls or digitized graphics were amazing back then as well.

Sometimes developers made mistakes. Try playing Mario Sunshine today. It's actually infuriating because the controls for FLUDD make no objective sense...in a modern context! Very few people had ever designed a kind of open world, 3D shooter type game like Sunshine when the Gamecube was released. Metroid Prime is a great example of this too--it's a 3D FPS on a console with a dual stick controller...and you turn your viewpoint with the fucking left analog stick left and right. That "ages badly" because the expectations are entirely different now. I remember playing the first Halo and other games that first did the twin stick layout and HATING it compared to Metroid Prime because Prime's control scheme made sense to me! Because I had nothing else to compare it to.

That's what it is. Expectations were different and sometimes things do weird things when you expect them to conform to certain standards. Like a Castlevania game having limited lives when a modern game like Celeste wouldn't do that.

>> No.4796580

3d graphics are hard to make good. Almost all 3d games have bad graphics to this day.

>> No.4796592


Metroid Prime on GCN is a first person platformer, not an FPS. MP3 was the first FPS Metroid (or was that hunters, don't actually remember which came first).

MP1 has aged only in the context that it's slow, even other FPP games have gotten faster. If you think the controls have aged then you're probably a console FPS baby.

>> No.4798041
File: 136 KB, 728x546, art-in-the-renaissance-2-728[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>A picture CAN NOT AGE because it's a picture.

Yeah it can, stylistically art can be very different between eras. There is very few art that can`t be tied to its respective era.