/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.4738705]

Why has doom aged so well? I'm playing this for the first time since back when I had a ps1 and hadn't gotten past the second level. Literally the only problem with it was that I have to use the gzdoom version so my controller works and it doesn't look as nice as the dos version.

There are games that came out 10-15 years after doom and haven't aged as well

[Anonymous No.4738709]

>>4738705
its because doom has charm. Like the cacodemon is kind of scary looking, but it's also the goofiest fucking thing ever and it's hilarious

[Anonymous No.4738710]

>>4738705
>fast
>smooth
>great controls
>great sound effects
>good level design
>subconsciously you are more likely to like it due to being conditioned to like it due to its reputation as a great game

[Anonymous No.4738728]

If you aren't playing keyboard only you are a scumbag and are the reason why video games are dead.

[Anonymous No.4738740]

>>4738705
It hasn't, you're just a tasteless faggot. Doom is fucking garbage.

[Anonymous No.4738747]

>>4738705
>Why has doom aged so well?
it hasn't.

>>4738740
i agree.

[Anonymous No.4738748]

PC first person shooter games age well because a newer computer can run them at max settings 6 million frames per second

[Anonymous No.4738871]

>>4738705
Because it's simple, straightforward fun that doesn't get bogged down by cinematics and other modern bullshit.

[Anonymous No.4738882]

>>4738705
if you are playing with a controller you are the cancer that is killing /vr/

[Anonymous No.4739110]

>>4738748
it's locked at 35
>but the source ports
just interpolate the frames, the game itself still runs at 35.

[Anonymous No.4739194]

>>4738882
What's wrong, too challenging for ya?

[Anonymous No.4739206]

>>4738882
There are more versions of doom that use a controller, such as playstation doom or doom 64, than versions that don't

[Anonymous No.4739214]

>>4738882
there isn't any reason not to use a controller. The game isn't designed to take advantage of the precision a mouse gives. Aiming doesn't have a y axis and as long as you are remotely close you are going to hit what you are shooting at, especially with the shotgun.

Maybe quake is designed for a mouse because you can aim up and down in quake I think. But Doom is totally fine with a controller

[Anonymous No.4739218]

>>4738705
The gameplay is fundamentally very solid, all the weapons fill a solid role, as do all the monsters, which are all distinct in appearance and movement.
It also has a neat aesthetic style mixing heavy metal album covers with the painted graphics, and classic (sometimes budget) movie horror aesthetics by the use of digitized photo graphics (clay sculptures, posable latex + steel models), iD Software being strongly inspired by Evil Dead 2 and Aliens, big favorites amongst the guys.

I think because of the fundamentally good gameplay, and how it was so widely distributed as shareware, and available on many consoles, it was the first really big bombshell of first person shooters, as early as 1993, Doom showed everyone how it was done and set many standards, some which hold very true to this day, by the virtue of being a good game that was very widely available and visible.
Wolf3D was a success in its own right, but not to the degree of Doom, which had just much deeper gameplay and much more interesting content, Doom 2 coming only about a year later, presenting lots of new content, later Final Doom would use the new assets of Doom 2 to really show what the game could do, offering far more challenge than the original games.

I think not just because people remember it and it's fun by its own right that it lasts, but also because of how easy it was to mod, facilitating user made content by design, and later enabling this even further thanks to John Carmack publishing the source code freely, allowing user made content to reach previously unimagined heights, that it still stays with people.
In the nearly 25 years that Doom has been around, there are mountains of usermade content, lots of little scraps, but also large and well crafted level sets, quite few rivaling, or even surpassing the original ones. Thus if you liked Doom, and want more, there's heaps more like it.
If you want to change the gameplay up somehow, or 'enhance' it, there's many options there too.

[Anonymous No.4739239]

>>4738705
>Literally the only problem with it was that I have to use the gzdoom version so my controller works and it doesn't look as nice as the dos version.
Go into the graphics options and turn off Bilinear filtering (it's on by default).
If you want the same constant shadow effects like the original .exe, then run GZDoom in software mode (you can also play in the original resolution on either)
I like OpenGL mode because the full colors and absence of Software mode's subtle geometric stretching.
Doom actually has some very nice looking textures and sprites, so OpenGL displaying them with unlimited colors, detail and definition not washing out when it's dark, suits me perfectly.

Also, if you want to relive the Playstation version of the game, there is a Total Conversion for GZDoom that mimics the PSX releases extremely closely, featuring all the altered levels, the effects, the enemy and weapon behavior, and with all the new sound effects.

>>4738728
>>4738882
Shut up, kid, people have been playing Doom with both mouse + keyboard, and gamepads, since you were in diapers.
People would play Doom with fucking joysticks.

>>4739214
>The game isn't designed to take advantage of the precision a mouse gives.
Not entirely correct, Doom was designed to be played ideally with a mouse and keyboard, the mouse allowing you to turn horizontally very quickly, smoothly and accurately, which has genuine advantages, even if you can't look vertically.
Romero and all the others playtested the game with mouse turning.

Playing keyboard only was a concession for weaker hardware, many computers didn't have enough memory to both run Doom and mouse drivers at the same time. It was advertised to run on a 386 (and it does) but really you needed at least a 486 to get the best experience.

[Anonymous No.4739240]

>>4738705
OK, so here's the lowdown on games "aging":

There are constantly changing trends in the industry that effects things like gameplay, design, art direction, plot and music.

Normies and casuals (no offense) buy so completely onto theae trends, that they actually begin judging all games based upon them, subcontiously. Weather said trends are actually good or not.

So badically new trends, which become instantly ingraned into the normie brain, makes all older games seem like old milk in comparison.while new, trend ridden trash seems like "le kino".

Games like Doom weren't made with any trends in mind. They developed a game that they found fun based on what vision they had in mind. This bypasses trends and is always fun. This is also isually the case with games that start trends. Like how only the dumbest of nufags and grumpy old farts think RE4 is a bad game. And it began the "everything is a TPS, no matter what genre" trend.

Here's the sad thing; non-normies, and guys a little TOO into gaming can see trendy shit coming 40 miles away and can't enjoy it. So to them, the trendy, new hotness was always bad. And normies just have to wait a year or two to get on board with that assessment.

If you disagree, you're too indoctrinated to be helped.

[Anonymous No.4739256]

It's shit. Nobody cares about Doom anymore these days except for the 5 regulars circle-jerking in the Doom thread and the angry guy replying to this comment.

[Anonymous No.4739260]

>>4739256
>>4738882
>>4738747
>>4738740
>>4738728
Are you ok, anon?

[Anonymous No.4739282]

>And it doesn't look as nice as DOS version

wtf?

[Anonymous No.4739283]

>>4739282
He probably means because of how GZDoom comes with an ugly bilinear filter applied by default, which you'll want to turn off so the game doesn't look smudgy.

[Anonymous No.4739291]

>>4739283
Oh, fair enough I guess.

[Anonymous No.4739523]

>>4738728
Doom was designed around mouseturning.

In fact, at least one of the console ports, the Playstation one (both the regular one and the Final Doom one), is advertised to be compatible with the Playstation Mouse peripheral.

[Anonymous No.4739716]

>>4738705
You can probably change the texture settings to get the blocky look. Also, zdoom is software version of gzdoom.

Also, you can use Chocolate Doom and play the game at the res it was made for with modern inputs.

[Anonymous No.4739748]

>>4739716
ZDoom isn't updated anymore though.
If you don't play mods, that doesn't actually matter much, however.

[Anonymous No.4739783]

I remember back in1995 this guy I knew had a ps1 and a screen projector playing onto his wall about 4 foot wide

Doom looked so amazing on it, it looks old game now but still plays well.

[Anonymous No.4739784]

>>4739240
>normies
You’re beyond help.

As time goes on, different standards are set. Specifically, interfaces and audiovisual fidelity are improved. This means that, to someone that’s become accustomed to more user friendly interfaces, for instance, Wizardry 1 on the Apple II would be a pain to play. Doom, meanwhile, is built on simple fundementals of good FPS design, and is stylized enough that the aesthetic is charmingly retro and not just obsolete. The only inaccessible part about it is the control, but it’s not that hard to learn or just switch to WASD with mouselook. It’s aged well because it was always accessible and not some poorly designed bullshit like Wizardry IV or Sonic CD.

[Anonymous No.4739928]

Big part of it no doubt is the fact that it's not actually fully 3D and uses sprites for the enemies. Fully polygon-based renderers looked like hot garbage long after the 2.5D look had gone out of style.

[Anonymous No.4740186]

>>4739928
The sprites for the monsters look really good. In fact, the animation frames for the monsters are actually better than they look in the original game, as most of them have at least a few frames which aren't 100% properly offset, thus animations look a bit choppy.

Someone made a .wad which contains fixed offsets for all the monsters (and a few objects, like the burning barrel), the monsters animate far smoother, looks very nice.
It also fixes a few tiny things, like a stray pixel or two on the revenant, and the leftover purple pixels on the Wolfenstein SS Trooper.

[Anonymous No.4740462]

Because Doom is simple and logical, which doesn't mean they aren't complex. This is why Doom, Pacman, Tetris and some other games are all time favourites.

[Anonymous No.4740463]

>>4739784
>The only inaccessible part about it is the control, but it’s not that hard to learn or just switch to WASD with mouselook

There's a gamepad for that

[Anonymous No.4740934]

Duke3D aged better.

[Anonymous No.4740945]

>>4740934
fuck no

[Anonymous No.4740991]

>>4738728
Reminder that fucking id recommended playing with mouse all the way back to fucking Wolfenstein 3D.

[Anonymous No.4741018]

>>4739239
>the mouse allowing you to turn horizontally very quickly, smoothly and accurately, which has genuine advantages, even if you can't look vertically.

Right, the game actually benefits greatly from not having vertical look, because it translates to greater speed and precision on the horizontal axis (because you don't have to worry about remaining steady on the vertical plane while you turn and your brain takes advantage of this).

I think that's subtly one of the things that makes Doom feel so amazing even today. You can dance around enemies at great speed and weave between projectiles while accurately returning fire because turning is literally twice as easy (at least?) as later games. Single axis first person shooters only existed for this narrow window of time and Doom rules them all.

[Anonymous No.4741020]

>>4740945
Fuck yes. Doom made Wolf3D obsolete. Duke3D made Doom obsolete. Nothing made Duke obsolete, because after that the FPS genre took a 180 degree turn (WASD controls, mouselook, true 3D graphics, autosaves instead of levels, slower pace, iron sight and other stuff I don't care about). The modern FPS genre pioneered with COD4.

[Anonymous No.4741026]

>>4741020
Duke3D is hideous and the weapons are all shittier versions of doom weapons. You should be gassed

[Anonymous No.4741030]

>>4741020
>Duke3D made Doom obsolete
Only the engine. Duke is fun and gimmicky but the action is nowhere near as good. Doom is so fun at a basic gameplay level that it's in a whole class of its own, meanwhile half the enemy types in Duke are just a chore to deal with.

[Anonymous No.4741091]

>>4738740

[Anonymous No.4741187]

>>4739523
The PS1 Doom games supported the PS mouse? Holy fuck. I want to try that so bad. I don't have a PS1 anymore though, but my PS2 is hooked up and ready to go. Does anyone know if I can use a PS1 mouse to play the PS1 Doom games on my PS2? If so, I think I may have to take a trip to the local retro game store. I've been dying to play some classic Doom but I don't have a PC currently.

[Anonymous No.4741208]

>>4738728
John Romero played with a mouse.

[Anonymous No.4741229]

>>4740934
Duke 3D aged almost as well.
Excellent game, but its modding community was never as big, and is pretty small today (however, still alive and healthy).
I love Doom more, but I also love Duke, because it does its own things that sets it apart a lot from Doom and other shooters, while still doing a lot of things right that Doom also did.
The level design alone sets it apart dramatically, featuring many environments that are ostensibly realistic on the surface, but are actually very abstract and weird.

>>4741020
You sound like a faggot.

>>4741026
At best the Ripper Chaingun is behavioraly similar to the chaingun from Doom, but that's on them being just very basic automatic weapons.
The rocketlauncher and shotgun are vaguely similar, then you have the pistol which is VERY different, but after that, Duke3D does completely different weapons, some pretty unconventional ones.

The Devastator lets loose a torrent of micro missiles, the Freezer and Shrinker does exactly what they say on the labels, the tripmines as well, the pipebomb kind of taking the role of a grenade, but with a remote detonator, giving it a lot of possibilities.

>>4741187
Good question. It MIGHT work.
Otherwise, if you get a computer, there does exist that previously mentioned PSX Total Conversion for GZDoom (just remember to turn off the bilinear filtering).
You could even use a gamepad and a mouse at the same time (a much better experience than it might sound).

[Anonymous No.4741251]

>>4741208
Yes he did, among many other things.
He advertised a lot of gizmos in the 90s too, joysticks and stuff, one which had like an analog knob/wheel on it or something, to take the place of a mouse in Doom, turning the wheel left and right to turn in the game.
Sounds silly but with Doom's lack of vertical aiming, it makes perfect sense.

No idea how actually good that thing was, however.

[Anonymous No.4741270]

>>4741229
> You could even use a gamepad and a mouse at the same time (a much better experience than it might sound).

I used to do that in the Dreamcast version of Quake 3, even though I had the Dreamcast keyboard as well. And yeah, that was perfectly fine, so I'm sure I'd have no problem doing the same thing with Doom.

[Anonymous No.4741587]

>>4741187
>I've been dying to play some classic Doom but I don't have a PC currently.
Then how are you posting?

[Anonymous No.4741593]

>>4738740
Imagine being THIS much of a contrarian faggot.

[Anonymous No.4741619]

>>4741587
Yeah everyone knows there aren't such things as smartphones, tablets or public use computers

[Anonymous No.4741915]

>>4741619
I once tried playing Doom on my smartphone many years ago, and it was completely miserable.

I don't get how kids do that shit, even if you're familiar with it, I can't imagine that you can actually get fast, accurate and responsive input like KB+M or a gamepad.
I mean I could probably make it through KDITD very slowly, but it wouldn't be fun.

[Anonymous No.4741943]

>>4741270
Analog stick + mouse is my preferred way of playing FPS these days, /vr/ or not.

[Anonymous No.4741960]

Is there any reason to play play station doom over regular steam ultimate doom/doom 2/Final Doom?

[Anonymous No.4741978]

>>4738728
I exclusively play the source ports, with full 3D mouse-look and auto-aim disabled.

[Anonymous No.4741981]

Because good games don't "age". If they were legitimately good in 1995, they are good now. Things that people claim are good, usually because of marketing pressure, and don't even remember in 10 years are the definition of a fad.

[Anonymous No.4741986]

>>4741960
New darker atmospheric soundtrack, some exclusive levels, but tech limits screw with monster variety and some levels had to be dropped.

Its flaws aside, it is a very good version of Doom. If you like the atmosphere, try project brutality or brutal doom combined with this music pack; http://www.moddb.com/mods/brutal-doom/addons/alternate-dark-ambient-music-pack

[Anonymous No.4742006]

>>4741960
If you like the new sound effects, sound reverb, new lighting and spooky music, it does have some appeal.
Even if you've played the original PC levels, the PSX levels are different enough that it's kind of worth it, at least to me. They also hide away a couple of Doom 2 monsters in the Doom 1 maps.
Never liked the PSX or N64 music though, it tries to be atmospheric but it just kind of sounds samey and bland, it doesn't build tone and atmosphere with tempo and melody like the original music does.

Also, the Final Doom package is a very mixed bag, it's a handpicked mix of TNT, Plutonia, and Master Level maps, but it doesn't seem like levels were selected with good judgement, a lot of the Master Level ones are very similar ones and very boring, I hated these, mostly.
The TNT maps are actually kind of cool with the new sounds, lighting and reverb, but then falls short as a lot of TNT's charm was it's atmospheric music, which is now replaced with the PSX Doom music.
There's only a few of the Plutonia levels, and only some of the early ones, none of the actually cool and interesting ones.

The Arch-Vile monster is completely cut in both versions (he has way too many frames, and they felt that trying to cut him down to fit would ruin him), hence he's either replaced with a static meathook prop, or sometimes, an extremelt anti-climactic Revenant (who are slower in the PSX versions). I think an added reason is that they thought he might be too hard for console players.
If archie scares the balls off of you, like me, this might be good news, but if you like what an awesome monster he is, finding him scary and providing a completely different and exciting challenge from anything else, like me, this will disappoint you.
Thus you don't have the cool and unique Map 11 from Plutonia; Hunted (where you're stalked in a labyrinth by numerous viles).

[Anonymous No.4742019]

In doom and doom 2 are you supposed to keep or lose your weapons when you die? I have been playing the source port and it has me keep my guns except for switching episodes, but I was watching an interview with Romero and he said something about starting the level when you die with a pistol

[Anonymous No.4742032]

>>4742019
When you die in Doom, you restart the level you died on with only a pistol, but full health.

[Princess Sevenleaf !AnVbXjgZco No.4742046]

>>4742019
You're supposed to lose everything except the pistol + 50 ammo on death, but ZDoom uses autosaves. You can disable autosaves in the console, but I forget what the command is... :/

[Anonymous No.4742074]

>>4742006
Archvile was purely because of tech limits, keep your PC MUSTAR RACE autism out of this thread.

While you're at it, stop wikifagging.

[Anonymous No.4742081]

>>4742074
The revenant moves like an imp and has vastly slower rockets. There would have been no issue keeping its original behavior for the ports.

[Anonymous No.4742094]

>>4742074
>Archvile was purely because of tech limits
That was the chief reason, but if you consider how the Revenant is a lot slower, thus not even remotely as dangerous, it makes you wonder if they were balling back and forth on how to work the arch-vile.
Cutting him wasn't an immediate decision, because Audrey Hodges released the unused sounds for him, and he mentioned they did tests with him, so he was there for a while.

>keep your PC MUSTAR RACE autism out of this thread
Reading a bit strongly into it, my man.
Either way, it's undeniable that the really challenging and interesting maps from Plutonia were cut in favor of many bland Master Levels maps.
Part of this was probably given that Plutonia levels might be more resource demanding, but I'd still have rather taken truncated Plutonia levels over 6 different Master Levels that look and play the same.

>While you're at it, stop wikifagging.
Breh, all this shit is in my head and I'm reflecting on playing the game and basing what I'm writing on my own opinions and ideas.
In terms of Doom, I'm extremely autistic, half of the shit I know isn't even listed in either Wiki.

You don't know who you're dealing with here.

>>4742081
This, he's a fucking joke on the Playstation.

[Anonymous No.4742101]

So, best version of Doom is PC version, second best version of Doom is playstation doom?

[Anonymous No.4742109]

>>4742101
The Playstation version is very liked, some think it's better than the original, some don't.

There's also Doom 64, which is more like it's own brand new game.

[Anonymous No.4742112]

>>4742101
Yes. People place Playstation highly because of the new OST and lighting effects. Also remember that the PC version originally was locked below 40 fps. The lowish framerate of the PSX version wasn't that much lower than the PC.

[Anonymous No.4742231]

>>4742019
In the original games, you'd lose everything and start over, levels being designed so that they're playable and beatable from so called Pistol Start, however, the game also lets you save whenever you want, with the original instruction manual even encouraging you to save often, meaning if you do die and lose everything, you could just load a save from before you died and then continue from there.

Both are perfectly viable, and it's really up to you which way you want to play. Sourceports have a tendency to just automatically load the last save after you die, which I think is ok if you want to do that.
Someone made a small patch
.wad for GZDoom to make sure that you'll actually lose everything proper and restart with just the pistol proper, if you want that feature in that sourceport.

[Anonymous No.4742486]

>>4738705
It hasn't its aged like sour piss

[Anonymous No.4742489]

>>4738740
This

[Anonymous No.4742645]

>on win10 opengl port with vmouse and filters up the ass and mods that pretend its nu-doom
>aged well

its only really good on retro hardware

[Anonymous No.4742747]

>>4742486
>>4742489
>>4742645
Is everything ok at home, anon?

[Anonymous No.4742857]

>>4742747
>being so fanatical as soon as you hear a different opinion you assume its one guy out to get you
>being so pathetic you resort to such weak shaming

Doom hipsters are real.

[Anonymous No.4742876]

>>4742857
Do you want to talk about it?

[Anonymous No.4742883]

>>4742876
>>4742747
There is a reason we have a Doom containment thread on this board and you might want to go back there.

[Anonymous No.4742892]

>>4742883
I hope you feel better later.

[Anonymous No.4742907]

>>4738740
You must be fun at parties

[Anonymous No.4742915]

>>4738705
It has a great community. Mods keep it alive. It's real fun without mods or anything, but it's mods that do the job of keeping it alive

P.S. The most toxic thing that there is on the Doom community is people with a different opinion than yours

[Anonymous No.4742931]

>>4742645
>filters
>Doom 4 mods
Doing it wrong, you want to turn filters off, then use dynamic lights and brightmaps.
Adjust compatflags to your choice, turn off auto aim and select a small and unobtrusive, yet visible crosshair (I prefer a small dot).

You can then just run it without any gameplay mods. Maybe use that one sprite fix mod (which has brightmaps).
Of course, if you want the game to look flashier, but still like the regular gameplay, Smooth Doom might be for you.
If you wanted the original game unmodified, there's Chocolate Doom, if you want to play lots of user maps but still vanilla, go for PrBoom+

Doom has always been intended to be accessible, hence why it can be controlled in all sorts of manners, kb+m, keyboard only, using the mouse to move, joysticks, gamepads, etc.
Also it was ported to all manner of consoles and systems, ported to Mac and Amiga computers, ported to all kinds of 16bit, 32bit and 64bit consoles, the source code was released so it could be ported to anything by anyone at any time.
The shareware was distributed online for free, and given away to stores for free.

Every effort was made by iD to make sure the game was widely accessible and could be played by all sorts of people in various circumstances.
If you had a contemporary computer or game console in the 90's, Doom was available to you in one way or another, if you have ANY computer in the 21st century, Doom is in your reach, also still being ported to consoles sometimes.

One of the biggest points with Doom is that everyone can interface with it in basically any way they want.

[Anonymous No.4742934]

>>4742915
As much as I love mods, I'll still just go vanilla sometimes.
Fuck, every once in a while, I'll play one of the old console ports, just because.

[Anonymous No.4742994]

>>4742931
>wikiposting

[Anonymous No.4743024]

>>4742994
You underestimate my autism, I don't need a wiki for any of this knowledge.

[Anonymous No.4743127]

>>4741187
Works just fine for Final Doom, but the original PS1 Doom didn't have mouse support.

[Anonymous No.4743147]

>>4742883
>Doom's multiplayer and legacy was built around it's strong community presence
>keeping us here because otherwise 4chan would have to accept their taste in video games and the people they support lead them to gacha/lootbox filled messes of greed

[Anonymous No.4743157]

>>4743024
>parrotposting

[Anonymous No.4743172]

>>4743147
>if its not Doom its lootboxes

hipsters or cult?

[Anonymous No.4743179]

>>4743172
A Doomsday cult

[Anonymous No.4743184]

>>4743172
You're just mad at me because i'm right

[Anonymous No.4743221]

>>4743157
19 years of knowledge, my friend, predating 4chan. I've been into Doom since I was a wee lad.

[Anonymous No.4743260]

>>4743221
course you were

[Anonymous No.4743268]

>>4738728
That imagouse. Romerog Doom. mouse. Obviously you couldn't aim in y axis but you could still aimge is shit. sly you couldn't aim in y axis but you couldD still aiYou could play Wolf3 from the start wih the m with the moth a when they weren't even planning on makinking Doom. mouse. Obvioum wituse.

[Anonymous No.4743272]

>>4743260
Yep.

[Anonymous No.4743275]

>>4743268
classic

[Anonymous No.4743360]

Here we go 15000+ mobs, let's do it!

[Anonymous No.4743365]

>>4743268
Good post anon, but let's try that one again

[Anonymous No.4743384]

Looks like a fun room!

[Anonymous No.4743491]

Playing with infinite lost souls was a bad idea.
15000 became 30000

[Anonymous No.4743549]

Fun and not too hard! I rate it 7/10.
Would slaughter it again.

[Anonymous No.4743856]

Been out of the Doom loop for a year or so. Any new wads worth checking out?

[Anonymous No.4743924]

>using a controller
Actually aiming when you could just point and click? Yeah no thanks.

[Anonymous No.4744110]

>>4743924
Breh, just work the strafing into your aiming, works better than you think.
That said, a mouse, even if just for turning, IS superior.

I'm a freak, so I use one of these with a wireless mouse.

[Anonymous No.4744129]

>>4743856
Alfonzone is a large set of small episodes for GZDoom, actually using 3D floors and other GZDoom effects as part of the level design.
Mildly mixed bag, the first two levels are pretty weak, but it picks up fast and stays mostly good, only dipping occasionally. Sometimes gets pretty challenging, but usually not annoyingly hard. You start off clean after each episode, and they're only like maybe 6 levels each, so they're very good for some brief occasional play.

There's also Nihility: Infinite Teeth, an episode 2 replacement for I think Boom format.
It's kind of like the 'demo' for a complete episode replacement that's in the works. It's very 'classic styled', using lots of Alpha and Beta resources, with lots and lots of neat DeHacked trickery to create new and challenging monsters. The levels are mildly mean in difficulty (with some pretty neat deathtraps), but very exciting and atmospheric, it does a LOT with rather simple means.
There's no music, so either play in silence, or put on some dark and moody music in the background (the Playstation soundtrack would actually not be bad here), either lends itself strongly to the very bleak atmosphere and feeling of the episode. It uses some basic ambient sound effects, which work very well, however.
It's one of my biggest favorites in the last few years, and I'm really looking forward to the finished product. Apparently the author develops the levels while doing drugs, last I heard he was mapping on amphetamines.

[Anonymous No.4744132]

>>4743549
You left 2 survivors. What is WRONG with you? Also, what wad?

[Anonymous No.4744137]

>>4744110
Those things are great. Although you should at least have a wired mouse.

[Anonymous No.4744145]

>>4744137
Ah, another weirdo like me?
Yeah, I played Duke Nukem 3D on console for a while, and while I've always found aiming with an analog stick to be inferior, something that caught me was that analog stick movement is actually *really* good, better than WASD movement, and I realized I had to somehow combine that with mouselook.

I prefer a wireless mouse, because I use a laptop, kicking back, I can just have a surface to lay it on, getting up, I can just put them down on the table next to me without having to deal with a wire. I also travel sometimes, and not having to worry about the wire on the mouse becoming damaged (as I've had happen on wired ones), is nice.
They're fast and responsive enough for me, and the battery life is quite long.

[Anonymous No.4744168]

>>4744145
>that caught me was that analog stick movement is actually *really* good
See this is so underrated. WASD movement eats ass compared to a thumbstick. I think only people who have a lot of experience playing shooters on PC and console understand this. I never was the kind of elitist that thinks fps is "unplayable" with a controller. However I started FPS on PC with the original R6 and not Doom.

[Anonymous No.4744189]

>>4744129
Thanks for the reply. Will def check out.

[Anonymous No.4744203]

>>4744168
>See this is so underrated. WASD movement eats ass compared to a thumbstick.
Yeah.

If anything, I had put off playing on my previous laptop (rip), which was this old worn out piece of shit, where the WASD keys just wouldn't be 100% reliable, they'd fail to read at a critical moment, every so often, so that's why I was so keen to play Duke on console. I've played FPS on consoles for years (Far Cry 3 is one of my favorites), but until I played a game like Duke with an analog stick, I hadn't ever actually stopped and analyzed just how good it feels, because moving and maneuvering is at least as important as taking cover in that game.

Because it's not just a substitute Dpad like WASD keys are, I could move forward, backwards, sideways, at any goddamn angle and speed I wanted, I didn't have to finagle with A+S to move backwards diagonally at the exact right angle, having to also employ my mouselook (in this case, analog look), in my maneuver for precision, I could make the precise maneuver while still aiming and shooting. That really made something click for me.
Getting one and trying it for Doom, it took a while to get used to, and took some experimenting to work out a control scheme that works for it, but man does it let me move in ways that feel natural, it's so smooth and nice.
The stick is also rather good feeling, the rubberized divot gives a good grip without being uncomfortable, and it has just the right springiness and sensitivity to feel right, with a good battery life.

The DPad on it is fucking horrible though, genuinely one of the worst I've ever used, mushy and 'uncertain' feeling. Two more face buttons would have been nice, too, one of them being hardwired for the Escape key. Build quality is also only so-so, over 3 or 4 years, I finally wore one down that the analog started acting up a little.
I wish this idea had more traction with people, because I'd like to see different companies try, instead of good, it could have been excellent.

[Anonymous No.4744205]

>>4744168
>However I started FPS on PC with the original R6 and not Doom
Rainbow Six?

[Anonymous No.4744490]

>>4744168
>I think only people who have a lot of experience playing shooters on PC and console understand this.
Y'know, this is probably true.

Someone who just prefers playing FPS on PC and never touches it on consoles, and has done WASD their whole life, they aren't gonna play an FPS with a gamepad ("I have a mouse, why would I?" or "The graphics wont be as good."), and a substantial amount of people who play first person shooters have limited, if any, experience playing FPS on a computer ("Keyboard keys suck as buttons." or "Computers are like, for work, only nerds play games on computers.").
All sort of valid arguments, in a way.

I guess it isn't strange this idea only has limited traction.
Keyboard keys for movement, and the analog stick for aiming, these are the "just ok" compromises that get you by, but are never excellent.
The mouse obviously gives you the most speed and precision in looking and aiming, while an analog stick gives you the most precision, smoothness and nuance, in movement, together, they let you move, maneuver and fight, in the most comfortable and efficient way.

Maybe some day, future consoles will ship with a mouse, and that'll finally spark the idea in people's heads to mix chocolate and peanutbutter.

[Anonymous No.4744502]

>>4744203
Thanks for the reply.

[Anonymous No.4744673]

>>4744132
slaughterfest 2011. Probably some lost souls that slipped away :(

[Anonymous No.4744730]

To those who prefer Duke, do you not think it lacks an immediacy which Doom quite uniquely offers?
Like if I have 10 minutes to spare, I'll fire up Doom. It would never cross my mind to do the same with Duke3D.

[Anonymous No.4745031]

>>4744730
I guess?

[Anonymous No.4745040]

>>4745031
Was purely curious that's all, as I think that is Doom's best asset.

[Anonymous No.4745185]

>>4739748
Ah, haven't been messing with new Doom mods in a while. Try looking for a console command in gzdoom for gl_texturemode and setting it to gl_nearest_mipmap_nearest and set the resolution low. Turning off texture filtering should at least do that in part though.

[Anonymous No.4745203]

>>4745185
I turned on mipmapping and it it kind of made things in the distance less fuzzy and easier to see.

What exactly does that do anyway?

[Anonymous No.4746953]

>>4744730
I guess you're right, but I'm not sure why.

[Anonymous No.4747035]

>>4746953
Interestingly, I find the opposite.
If I'm not doing anything else that day, I might sit down and play a bit on some megawad, working my way through that.
If I'm going somewhere later, I might just play a level or two of Duke

[Anonymous No.4747767]

>>4744490

I grew up playing FPS on PCs going back to Doom and Duke Nukem to Quake 3 and Battlefield 1942. Now whenever there is a new FPS that comes out like Battlefield 1, I go strictly for console, mostly because i'm a cheap bastard who doesn't want to buy a new gaming computer but primarily because as I got older I decided playing on a 55" TV on the couch is more comfortable than hunched over a desk with a mouse. If I am not as precise, who cares, everyone else is in the same boat with a controller and no matter how "gud" I get, i'll still be ranked #454,445,234 in the world so I just play to be entertained.

The irony though in the PC master race who proclaims a mouse is the "only" way to play a FPS is holding a controller is actually closer to holding and aiming a real gun as it takes some actual aiming skill to work the analog stick to hit the target you're aiming at rather than gliding your mouse pointer over it, but hey what do I know....

[Anonymous No.4747806]

heretic > doom

[Anonymous No.4747856]

>>4747767
>holding a controller is actually closer to holding and aiming a real gun as it takes some actual aiming skill to work the analog stick to hit the target you're aiming at rather than gliding your mouse pointer over it,
Not really.

Aiming a gun, you need a good grip, you need to learn to pull the trigger in the right way, and that's not getting into lining up the sights, where you need to know the range of your weapon, and then adjust them, or if they're fixed, compensate for them mentally.
Rifles and shotguns are easier, since you generally have a stock to put against your shoulder, and have an area in front of the center of the gun's axis to support it with, letting it be really stable and easy to aim, while handguns usually don't, you having only the one grip to support with your arm strength.
Having too slack of a wrist, 'limpwristing', can also affect reliability on semi-automatic handguns, some guns are less sensitive to this, some are more, often it isn't a problem unless one's technique or strength is exceptionally bad.

Beyond games which feature ADS, where you lining up the sights in that game just means pushing/holding a button, videogames are very much not at all like shooting real guns, neither a mouse or an analog stick translates at all to handgun or long gun shooting, the only input that ever does is actual lightguns, like arcades and stuff like Duck Hunt, and that's only some of the rudimentary things, you don't have recoil control, not even the arcade guns with reciprocating slides/bolts give you a good idea of real shooting, and the range between you and the target (the screen) is extremely short.
I personally prefer comfortable and responsive controls over 'realistic' controls, and while I can use an analog stick to aim, a mouse just feels better and is more efficient.

[Anonymous No.4747859]

>>4747806
Both are much better than Hexen.

[Anonymous No.4748251]

Why do the 2 Johns get so much more credit for Doom than anyone else?

[Anonymous No.4748364]

>>4748251
Off the top of my head:

>John Carmack did the engine and rendering and stuff, basically laid the foundation for how the game worked and made it function, made the BSP trees
>John Romero did additional coding, levels, tools, big ideas guy.
>Sandy Petersen did a shitload of levels (like half of Doom and Doom 2), and also was an ideas guy, brought a lot of dark fantasy and Lovecraft-ish elements (the Arch-Vile was partially his idea).
>Adrian Carmack did concept art, the 'poseable' clay models, painted textures and sprites, dug through resource libraries for textures, also was an ideas guy and the resident edgelord.
>Kevin Cloud I helped with all the stuff Adrian did, was Doomguy's arms.
>Dave Taylor did 'glue coding' (interface stuff, map, etc).
>Gregor Punchatz was hired to put together poseable steel models with latex skins, based on Adrian's designs, as the clay models was an extremely imperfect setup.
>Ivan Punchatz (Gregor's son) illustrated the cover art for the first game.
>Gerald Brom illustrated the cover art for the second game.
>Tom Hall did a whole bunch of concept stuff that was eventually scrapped, was later fired, also did some concept levels, which ended up being recycled and retooled by Sandy (imo these levels are the best ones in the original game). Was in general a coder, mapper, and huge ideas guy, would go lead the development of Rise Of The Triad at iD's publisher Apogee, while Doom continued development.
>American McGee did some levels for Doom 2.
>Tim Willits is the resident manlet and also did some levels for Doom 2. Still actually at iD
>Shawn Green did a few maps, also helped with developing various console ports for the game.
>Donna Jackson was their office manager, would order whatever, make sure maintenance was done, etc.
>Bobby Prince did all the music and all the sound effects.
>Paul Radek did the sound engine.
>Jay Wilbur did business and finances and stuff.

[Anonymous No.4748372]

>>4748251
Carmack did a lot of the hard work on Doom, making the engine and all of that, and Romero did a lot of work developing tools they needed to make levels, making some himself. He wasn't the driving force of the game, but he did a lot of important stuff.

I think he gets some of the strongest association with Doom because he was the only one of the guys who was really willing to go and interact with the press so much (probably too much), thus becoming the face of iD Software for a while

[Anonymous No.4748659]

>>4738705
great atmosphere, interesting stage design, loads of enemies, enemy types that combine in interesting ways
plus, you can mod it

>>4744168
Fuck, I really wish analog movement+mouse was more common.
like, if I have to pick controller or kb+m, I'll do kb+m every time since precise aiming is more important than smooth movement, particularly since you can alter your direction with the mouse anyway
but having the benefits of both is amazing

>>4743268
is this a stroke
how do I call 911 for an anon

>>4742109
despite the lower framerate and rare-ish bugs, it's worth it for that cool sector coloring and amazing sound design
I wish the PS1 Doom TC had the really eye-popping sector colors, they're so muted in the conversion.

[Anonymous No.4749089]

>>4748659
>but having the benefits of both is amazing
You should try the Splitfish thing out then, it has a very long battery life and a good analog stick.

The DPad is atrocious, so don't put much stock in that, but it has two face buttons and three shoulder buttons, you can work with it.
I bind crouch toggle to clicking the analog, use key to the lower face button, and the map to the upper face button, leaving the shoulder button for contextual mod things (one is for a flashlight mod I have on autoload).

[Anonymous No.4749417]

>>4742006
The PS and N64 music, although similar have many differences. The N64's sound more evil and menacing, while the PS' sound sad and depressing. The N64 also have some tracks that are just background sounds.

[Anonymous No.4749813]

>>4749417
I know, I just don't much like any of them.

E2M6 playing Sign Of Evil is spookier and stronger in atmosphere to me than any other map with any PSX or N64 track.

I can see what Audrey was going for, but it all sounds way too similar. If just one or two tracks were like that, and he instead focused on intense yet slow and creepy melodies, it would have been much better to me.

[Anonymous No.4749919]

>>4749089
>You should try the Splitfish thing out then, it has a very long battery life and a good analog stick.
Fuck, that's cool. Thanks for the tip.

[Anonymous No.4749926]

>>4738705
because it's 2d, 2d graphics don't age like 3d

[Anonymous No.4749932]

>>4738728
Embarrassing.

[Anonymous No.4749951]

>>4749919
Make sure you get the PC version for your PC, also get the instruction .PDFs for both the PC version and the PS3, as the PC version lacks one of the instructions, for resetting the connection, if it ever stops working. Happened once, maybe twice, over many years, "re-pairing" the connection tends to work.
It's not excellent, but it's pretty good. Again, I'd really like the idea to be more popular so more people tried, maybe someone makes a better one, with a good DPad and more face buttons.

For games that don't support analog sticks, what you can to is to flick a switch on the USB receiver to set it to Keyboard Mode, the analog stick will then behave as WASD, and other buttons will do other keys.
I haven't tried playing like this, preferring to to just go back to WASD when I played a game that didn't support it (I still had the knack for it).

[Anonymous No.4749953]

>>4749926
I beg to differ, have you ever seen Witchaven?
Maybe some people thought that looked good back in the day, but I think it's fucking hideous to look at.

[Anonymous No.4749979]

>>4749951
Is there any difference between doing this and just playing with an xbox controller in one hand?

[Anonymous No.4749985]

>>4749953
that's cause the overall aesthetic is bad, not the grafics themselfs, Doom has a really nice aesthetic, therefore is doesnt age very badly

[Anonymous No.4750018]

>>4749979
I like not having the weight of the unsupported side hanging off (a small thing, really, but it does feel a little bit nicer), and it takes less space when traveling. But I suppose nothing stops you from doing that.

What I don't know is if the right analog stick on a full controller overrides the mouse, you'd have to find that out yourself.

[Anonymous No.4750029]

>>4749985
I mean I guess.

There's Quake though, which I love, even aesthetically, but the crude 3D models aren't exactly amazing to look at.
I wish there was a full upgrade pack that replaced all the weapons and monster models with something nicer, with the same aesthetic style.
It wouldn't even need any special new animations or super high res skins with all kinds of texture mapping or anything, just better geometry.

[Anonymous No.4750036]

>>4738705
>Why has doom aged so well?

Because early FPSes were about the feeling of running into a room and mowing everything down. Doom captures that feeling better than any other game. FPSes stopped being about that around when Halo came out (and were moving away from that already at that point anyway). If you want that feeling from a game no game does it better than Doom.

[Anonymous No.4750075]

Doom's got the monster killing, but can you do it with sniper rifles?

[Anonymous No.4750086]

>>4750075
With mods you can.

[Anonymous No.4750092]

>>4750086
I bet you can't "mod"in a monster truck.

[Anonymous No.4750101]

>>4750092
Shouldn't be TOO hard, people have made cars, tanks and motorbikes as vehicles.
This .webm is pretty old, too, it's before ZScript, which could do a hell of a lot more than this, and slicker.

[Anonymous No.4750119]

>>4750101
Well, as impressive as cars, tanks, and motorbikes are, they're no monster trucks. It looks like DUAL ORB 2 wins again.

[Anonymous No.4750286]

>>4750119
There's no reason you couldn't make monster trucks, it's just that nobody has.

Maybe some day.

[Anonymous No.4750452]

>>4738728
kill self

[Anonymous No.4750719]

>>4741020
How the fuck do you play Duke without mouselook?

[Anonymous No.4750720]

>>4748251
It's bullshit. Tom Hall was the real "creator" of Doom.

[Anonymous No.4750721]

>>4750086
What mod is that?

[Anonymous No.4750969]

>>4750719
You don't, the game is built for freelook, even in the old console ports you'd use an analog stick to look up and down, not to talk about the original .exe
Fighting gun turrets, protozoid slimers, and octabrains, would all be annoying as shit without freelook, and there's enough shootable switches and secret areas that you're meant to shoot at and notice by looking up and down.

>>4750721
An old version of Shut Up And Bleed. It's a very Resident Evil inspired mod with a strong tone of horror.
It's really neat for all of its detail and style, and most of the new demons are super cool, but how the mod actually plays and balances is really wonky and 'uneven'.
There's like 16 different weapons, and a lot of them overlap in function and use, a lot of them are also clunky to use, many of them will make you go "I wish this weapon didn't suck" or "I'd rather have had more ammo for the shotgun or flamethrower".

It has some depth and cool ideas to it, and playing through the first three episodes of Doom with it, it's kinda decent, but anything that's harder than that (like episode 4, or occasional parts of Doom 2), will be really frustrating and annoying.
I personally ended up doing a bunch of weapon tweaking to get through Hellbound, because its otherwise a mapset that'll just endlessly kick you in the teeth with something like SUAB.
Like, Hellground is built around Doom weapons and monsters, the plasma and rocket launcher, for instance (high DPS, no reloading), or the BFG (which SUAB has no real counterpart for), and as soon as Hellbound brings out the large hordes, the gameplay goes from exciting difficulty to fucking annoying difficulty. These two were not made for each other.
SUAB is the kind of gameplay mod that would probably be really neat with its own dedicated mapset, just because of how all over the place the balance and difficulty is otherwise.

[Anonymous No.4751858]

>>4750720
Hey Tom, what are you working on these days?

[Anonymous No.4751910]

>>4741981
I don't know, sometimes a game pioneers something, but then another game comes out, and does everything that game did, but better, and doing more, and then you go back looking at it and it's just not very cool when the other game did it better.

Like Wolfenstein 3D has a lot charm and style to it, but once you played Doom, Wolf3D isn't nearly as exciting or special as it was first.
Like, it's not bad or anything, but you can't help but notice how plain and empty it is.

It has lovely cartoon visuals, and it's far more "arcadey" than Doom, but if you just look at a game like Rise Of The Triad, it takes everything that was distinct and awesome with Wolf3D, and turns it up or upgrades it, making an absolutely batshit first person arcade style game juxtaposing photorealistic digitized actors with hilarious cartoon gore, with similar, yet far more intricate level design, and much more varied enemies and weapons, complete with a pretty impressive (for the time) multiplayer.
It was originally meant to be a sequel to Wolf3D, iD pulling the plug on it and Apogee retooling it to their own game, but that also brings me to how a sequel can almost make its predecessor obsolete, because it did everything way better.
There's a lot of times where I see people suggest a second or third entry in a series, not because the previous games are bad (they're good, even), but the followers are just so much better that playing the previous ones feels like a waste of time to a lot of people.

I'm not sure I'd call it aging, or your perspective maturing, just that, times change, and some games aren't as cool as they were at first, even just a few years later.

[Anonymous No.4752020]

Anyone know where i can get a hold of the first track on this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFCnme6yWGY

I downloaded the "NowThatsWhatICallMidi" wad but it sounds completely different.

[Anonymous No.4753464]

>>4750286
There's some good truck sprites in Quarantine, I figure someone could slap some huge wheels on those, then make some animation frames (wheels spinning, etc), and then all you gotta do is make the code and give it a bunch of cars to crush.

[Anonymous No.4753486]

>>4738705
A game "aging well" in your eyes means that the genre hit a brick wall and never really progressed beyond that.

[Anonymous No.4753519]

>>4738705

Only thing it hasn't aged well is the over the top running head bob is a little barfy the older I get. Luckily fixable in most modern source ports.

[Anonymous No.4754279]

>>4753486
How?

[Anonymous No.4755193]

>>4744110
Woolie?

[Anonymous No.4755565]

>>4755193
I know nobody by that name.

[Anonymous No.4755581]

>>4755565
Darlington?

[Anonymous No.4755593]

>>4755581
Sorry.

[Anonymous No.4756559]

>Playing Brutal Doom
>Sacrificial Grounds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJwXuoKXOLE

Mfw

Seriously there needs to be more Doom Hell levels that go into the really fucked up aspects of hell. Like entire rooms of impaled, tortured people screaming and crying. Endless suffering.

[Anonymous No.4756590]

>>4756559
I never really liked Brutal Doom very much, but I'll fully acknowledge that Brazilian Robbie Rotten is actually a pretty good mapper, I'd have no trouble believe parts of BD Starter Pack have some pretty strong levels (I heard a few were phoned in, however).

[Anonymous No.4757594]

>>4738710
>good level design

Most of the maps are mazes which is more annoying than fun imo.

You just want to go and kill demons, but no, you have to navigate through this maze 3 times, because the keycards and the doors they unlock are at the opposite sides of the maze.

[Anonymous No.4757690]

>>4757594
Doom was never really that bad with mazes and labyrinths.
I wont say the original maps are the finest level design the world's ever seen, but everything is mostly straightforward.

Wolfenstein 3D was far more guilty of this, where there legit were levels with annoying labyrinths.

[Anonymous No.4757691]

Anyone else find that Quake maps are not designed for shotgun start? In Doom the levels felt built for pistol start but most Quake levels will throw you up against Ogres and Fiends in the first few seconds. E3M7 pits a bunch of zombies at the start with no grenades in sight.

[Anonymous No.4757696]

>>4757594
Confirmed for never having played Doom. Wolfenstein 3D is the mazey game.

[Anonymous No.4757810]

>>4756590
Many of BDSP levels are modified Freedoom levels.

[Anonymous No.4757829]

>>4756559
where did they find barb wire in space

[Anonymous No.4757840]

>>4757810
I did hear that, and that's pretty cheap, but I'll still stand by the fact that Dead Cargo was a good map.

[Anonymous No.4757842]

>>4757829
I'm assuming hell just has had a roll of it lying around on their side of reality, gotta keep yourself stocked on stuff like that just in case you get an opportunity like this.

[Anonymous No.4757878]

[Anonymous No.4757905]

>>4738728
Once you play with mouse you realize it's meant to be played with one. No going back.

[Anonymous No.4757927]

>>4743856
We made a speedmap megawad in the Doom thread last summer called "300 minutes of /vr/" and it turned out pretty good.

[Anonymous No.4757983]

>>4757905
All the original demo files that Doom and Doom 2 ship with clearly shows the use of mouse turning.

https://youtu.be/CXgTa7rsgCA

I think the demo lump for Map 26 is by far the best one, Romero really keeps pushing on low health for a lot, until later where the Mancubus blows him up.

[Anonymous No.4757985]

>>4757927
I've yet to play that actually.

[Anonymous No.4758001]

>>4757878
thanks john

[Anonymous No.4758397]

>>4757878
I think he'd probably like this, given that he never liked those ads to begin with.

[Anonymous No.4758403]

possibly dumb question, are there any source ports that run well on OLD hardware? Like, Pentium 1 level old. Asking because I found a pretty nice old toshiba lappy that has trouble scaling up 320*200 cleanly and I'd like to be able to play doom and maybe heretic at its native resolution instead.

[Anonymous No.4758464]

>>4758403
I guess maybe the original Boom port, with which you should be able to play Final Doom, and some of the 'Limit Removing' requiring megawads.

[Anonymous No.4759251]

>>4738705
Doom (and Quake since they are very similar in principle, even if different in tone) has the absolute bare minimum an FPS should have to be enjoyable:

>A level design with height and light variations with capability for unique structures.
>Basic level objectives in form of keys/switches
>Certain amount of interconnectivity/nonlinearity in the levels
>Visually and audibly distinct enemies with various roles they perform which allows for a great ammount of different combat scenarios
>Weapons, apropriate in power to deal with said enemies, with good degree of "oomf" mehind them.
>Overall distinct and recogniseable visual aestethic that is not offensive to the eye (like some doom and wolfclones of the time)

And every part of that basic formula is done well, which makes Doom and Quake purest of FPS with absolutely no extra unnecesary bullshit mechanics/additions - a solid foundation upon which almost anything can be made which is proven time and again with numerous gameplay mods.


Doom and Quake has aged so well for the same reason SMB and Megaman did - there are no other "pure" specimens of the genre. FPS that came prior were too simplistic, clones and other games that came at the time failed in one aspect or the other, games that came after added unnecesary bs on top of the base formula.

[Anonymous No.4759291]

>>4739110
Game /logic/ runs at 35. It displays at whatever FPS your rig can output (or whatever FPS you limited it to)

>>4739240
"Aging badly" has nothing to do with trends. It just means that something was never good in the first place, and was only perceived as "good" because there was nothing better at the time. Being a best, most polished turd among a pile of shit is not an accomplishment.
As soon as something that does the same thing, but does it genuinely well, the old thing is recognised as actually terrible (aged badly). That happened with 99% of FMV games.

If a game or anything else does its thing well, it will not "age" in that regard.

>>4758403
Regular old Boom should run on it (as its minimum req are 486dx) . Just don't expect any actually complex maps to run well on such hardware. Anything released prior to 2002 should work fine however. It supports any resolution.
There's also Doom95 and Hexen95 that upped the resolution to 640x400, but they arent all that good of a ports.

IDK if Doom Legacy would run on it, but it'd be worth a try.

[Anonymous No.4759602]

>>4759291
What did Legacy do that Boom didn't? Aside from splitscreen multiplayer.

[Anonymous No.4759616]

>>4759602
IIRC Legacy was one of the first ports to introduce OpenGL acceleration with additional features like colored lighting and 3D floors (can be turned off)
Also quake-like console and jumping (original Boom does not have that).
Added FraggleScript for some modding which was used for like 3.5 actual Legacy engine mods.

[Anonymous No.4759642]

I think pixel graphics games can age better depending on how they're done.

3d graphics has an instant means of comparison to later generation 3d, especially if it's trying to be realistic.

[Anonymous No.4759657]

>>4738705
The shitty texture filtering is default but configurable in GZDoom, you can turn it off under OpenGL options.

[Anonymous No.4761659]

>>4738728
>he plays the special ed way

[Anonymous No.4761759]

>>4738740
You fag

[Anonymous No.4761764]

>>4738705
Great mechanics, for one. This article:
http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74
does a good job of breaking some of that down.
Also, the AI and enemy alert logic, while simple, work extremely well. The enemy infighting contributes a lot. Large groups of enemies behave in a somewhat organic manner, with emergent behavior as their individually simple logics interact. One can get a sense of thrilling mass combat as waves of enemies become alerted to one's presence, clumps of them begin to fight each other while others pursue you, etc. The variety of enemy attacks - melee, hitscan, projectile, Archvile, etc. create a multilayered depth to large-scale combat in open and semi-open areas.
And of course the aesthetics are a successful blend of various elements - action movies, metal, sci-fi, horror. The mood is sometimes one of action, sometimes one of fear, and as the first reply correctly points out, there's a certain humor blended into it. (Blending humor, action, and eerieness is something that Duke3D also did extremely well.)
The story is famously simple and badass.
The cartoonishness of the graphics helps to keep them from looking dated.

[Anonymous No.4761907]

>>4738728
Kill thyself, hellspawn.

[Anonymous No.4761930]

>>4759251
Quake, I entirely agree with, that is in my eyes the essential FPS experience. It essentially is the same as any modern FPS (I assume, since I live in a bubble), but without all the garbage.

Doom hasn't aged well in my eyes. The reliance on autoaim is annoying. The only real solution is to add mouselook, but then you have the problem of the sprites being 2d (2d mouselook is atrocious and one reason Duke 3d is horrible and Doom is far more bearable, the sprites go invisible from certain angles, which just breaks immersion). So then you get something like Doomsday, except the models look goofy and the game was still designed around 2d gameplay. There is no jumping, no buttons to shoot on walls, the world just ends up feeling flat even when in 3d.

There aren't really a lot of environmental hazards in Doom like in Quake. Quake, you have guillotines coming down and keys dropping into pits of lava. None of that is really possible in Doom, the best you got is a need to run through a pit of slime, which ends up feeling more cheap than anything as it essentially results in game over situations if the WAD didn't offer health prior to needing to run across a lengthy damaging floor.

Doom somewhat has the mentality of Wolfenstein 3d. Stuff is still expected to be collected, in particular items, and so you end up with a lot of tiny armor bonuses everywhere. This is annoying because each one goes towards a total at the end of each level, resulting in lengthy hunts for a small armor bonus. It doesn't help that plenty of PWADs tended not to care about 100% completion and thus have one in an impossible to reach area. By comparison, Quake focuses on just enemies and secrets, both of which tend to be in the level (except for the Rotfish glitch and a few trigger issues).

It helps that the use key is gone, so no more expectations to spam every wall. It helps that the automap is gone, which means levels have to actually look recognizable.

[Anonymous No.4762231]

>>4761764
Doom very much has the aesthetics of a good horror B-movie.

Looking at just the monsters and actors, methods for making them include:
>hand painted (caco, imp, chaingunner)
>sculpted clay on a posable art store doll (doomguy, baron of hell, cyber demon), these broke a lot
>painted latex models with fully poseable steel skeletons (revenant, mancubus, arch-vile, spider mastermind)
>pinkie was made with by posing a Jurassic Park dinosaur toy and painting over it (also reusing small bits of the baron)
>icon of sin was hand drawn with pencil, then scanned in and painted
>lost soul the skull of an anatomy skeleton as its base
>zombie trooper and shotgun trooper were based on the doomguy sprites, trooper has green hair because of a pallete conversion error, but they thought it was cool and they kept it
>hellknight was a pallette swap, while the pain elemental was based on the caco, but altered with a whole pile of other bits and leftovers; recolored caco body, horns from cyberdemon, arms from imp, eye from beta version of blursphere powerup, flaming lost souls in his mouth actually based on a cut and unfinished "blobmonster" (supposedly it would come out of the wall, rendering flat against its surface, attacking the player, how wasn't clear, as it was likely scrapped very quickly and only had 3 frames, potentially it might have been intended to spawn a lost soul, as it used that graphic as a base)
>arachnotron was probably the finished mastermind sprites shrunk down and painted over
There's this really varied and experimental style to it, they'd approach making graphics from all kinds of angles, and get all kinds of results.

[Anonymous No.4762263]

>>4762231
You see it with textures too:
>hexagonal steel tiles are actually the scales on Adrian Carmack's snakeskin boots
>one of the bloody skin wall textures was from Kevin Cloud coming into work one day with a scrubbed knee, "let's scan it"
>some of the textures came from resource libraries and photo books
>some of the tech textures were made from spare motherboards and other circuitry they had lying around
>a bunch of the other tech textures came from the detailing on the toy raygun they used to make the BFG
>the snake/tentacle texures, and the tortured souls texture (also used as the intermission screen in episode 4 and Doom 2), was drawn with pencils, scanned in, and processed
>one of the textures that looks like pineboard bordered with planks is in fact Kevin Cloud's hairy forearm (bordered with planks)
>fleshy eye switch thing (that you see starting E3M1) is partially based on the caco

[Anonymous No.4762306]

>>4762263
With the weapons you had basically a bunch of stuff they bought at Toys R' Us, along a few other things
>pistol is a Beretta 92 shaped watergun they spray painted black
>shotgun is a TootsieToy Dakota
>chaingun was an Ol' Painless electric toy minigun
>plasmarifle was a toy based on an M60 machinegun, the front end of it could be taken off and it would be in "pistol form", this part was used
>BFG was a toy raygun turned sideways and mirrored, the muzzle would later be swapped for one based on the plasma's
>I've seen the scrap graphic people suggest is the basis for the rocket launcher, but it looks nothing at all like it, frankly the muzzle on the original BFG raygun looks much more like it
>super shotgun is actually painted from scratch, the Doom 2 beta SSG looked like a weird double version of the original pump shotgun
>the chainsaw was a real Eager Beaver brand chainsaw, supposedly belonged to Tom Hall's then girlfriend, apparantly this is a real shit brand of saw, and John Romero has photos of it leaking gasoline. They forgot to return it, and last I heard, it was still lying around somewhere at iD's office in Dallas
>the punch (and all the hands), are Kevin Cloud's, the leather gloves belonged to someone else, can't remember who
For the rifle and machinegun sprites from the alpha and beta, they were probably from Toys R' Us too, though I've never seen any other versions or production images of them, let alone any toy that matches.

Doom's visual style is ALL over the place, and I love it. Because of this disjointed style, by the way, it's not actually hard to put in new graphics for levels and .wads, and if the graphic is decent enough, it won't stand out, given how uneven and chaotic the original game is in that regard.

[Anonymous No.4762378]

>>4761930
>It essentially is the same as any modern FPS (I assume, since I live in a bubble), but without all the garbage.
Not really that much. Even in less realistic shooters you don't have the bunnyhopping or rocketjumping, nor powerups in the same manner. A lot (though not all) modern shooters opt for a very linear level design, some do an open world exploration game, some games do this well, some do it horribly.

>The reliance on autoaim is annoying.
It's an ok solution to a problem, but I'll admit I never liked autoaim, unless I'm playing strictly vanilla, I always turn off autoaim and use freelook, because that's just comfortable to me.

>The only real solution is to add mouselook, but then you have the problem of the sprites being 2d
You can have freelook without autoaim with GZDoom

>So then you get something like Doomsday, except the models look goofy and the game was still designed around 2d gameplay.
Probably because Doomsday is shit, and the 3D models not only look awkward because of Doom's enemy behavior, but the 3D models are as old as some of the people posting here (I never thought they looked good back then either).
For Doom you can have GZDoom, with OpenGL you get no distortion in mouselook. For Duke, you have EDuke32, offering much the same.

>2d mouselook is atrocious and one reason Duke 3d is horrible and Doom is far more bearable
I think Duke Nukem 3D is a pretty excellent game, and freelook is used well.
20th Anniversary Edition has a true 3D renderer (and some actually pretty snazzy normal maps and dynamic lights), maybe you could pirate that and give it another chance, you don't get the distortion.

[Anonymous No.4762385]

>There is no jumping,
GZDoom has jumping. You can really break level progression on a lot of the original iD maps with jumping though, so most recommend you either turn it off, or use it with judgement. Same for crouching ,which it also has.

>no buttons to shoot on walls,
Doom has shootable buttons. Not many in the original levels, but they're there. Granted, a lot of their placement is usually on the premise that you can't look up or down, and that you would have to reach a certain position to able to actually hit the button. Again with freelook, use your own judgement on if you want to sequence break or not.

>the world just ends up feeling flat even when in 3d
It doesn't have the same volume as Quake or Duke, given the lack of 3D floors (real or fake), but a lot of maps use height for interesting results IMO.
I'll say though that the modding community has long since surpassed the original iD levels in gameplay and visuals.

[Anonymous No.4762402]

>There aren't really a lot of environmental hazards in Doom like in Quake. Quake, you have guillotines coming down and keys dropping into pits of lava.
Quake did have a lot of lovely traps and hazards actually, but there's plenty of traps in Doom, and plenty more you can do than iD thought of themselves.

>None of that is really possible in Doom, the best you got is a need to run through a pit of slime, which ends up feeling more cheap than anything as it essentially results in game over situations if the WAD didn't offer health prior to needing to run across a lengthy damaging floor.
There's more hazards than these, there's crushers (which have a LOT of varying applications if you're just a bit clever with them), as well as monster closets and ambushes, and in user made levels, you can see some very creative traps, such as ones where you telefrag yourself.

>Doom somewhat has the mentality of Wolfenstein 3d. Stuff is still expected to be collected, in particular items, and so you end up with a lot of tiny armor bonuses everywhere. This is annoying because each one goes towards a total at the end of each level, resulting in lengthy hunts for a small armor bonus.
That's on you, the game doesn't require you to kill all the monsters, or find all the secrets, or pick up all the items, it doesn't even really reward you for it, the game basically just tells you "Nice!" at the intermission screen if you get 100% on everything, and it changes nothing.

>It doesn't help that plenty of PWADs tended not to care about 100% completion and thus have one in an impossible to reach area.
Shoddy oneoffs were plenty in the 90's, but the community has focused and learned a lot in all these years. I can recommend you some extremely nice level sets that has no problems like these.

[Anonymous No.4762418]

>By comparison, Quake focuses on just enemies and secrets
I'll say that I like secrets in Quake a lot, being able to have actual three dimensional spaces lets you do a lot of things Doom never could, obviously.

>It helps that the use key is gone, so no more expectations to spam every wall.
I actually never really liked that, but I respect it as a way to streamline Quake as a faster and simpler experience.

>It helps that the automap is gone, which means levels have to actually look recognizable.
That's nonsense, Doom was designed with landmarks and recognizeable areas in mind. It's not 100% foolproof but I don't think getting lost in the original iD levels is THAT easy, maybe some in Doom 2.
For the automap, this was an easy feature to implement in Doom, as you didn't have room over room, while for a game like Quake, you would have either an incomplete and unclear topdown map, or you'd have to either paint or 3D render an object to be a map, which was more effort.

[Anonymous No.4762437]

>>4762378
>Bunnyhopping and rocket jumping
Not even in arena shooters? Wait, are you telling me Quake Champions doesn't have rocket jumping?

>Linear level design
Quake was relatively linear. There was a start, and end, and a path to do most things with a few areas to explore. Nonlinear in FPS makes me think more along the lines of Thief 2.

>Ok solution to the problem
Exactly why I turn off the very minor autoaim in Quake. One thing that really annoys me in Doom is when you have a room with Imps in a pit of slime. You can't drop down there to kill them, so you need to kill them before they move too close to the wall to kill them, or waste BFG ammo on three Imps. There just isn't an easy solution and it ends up not feeling that natural.

>Freelook
Except the sprites warp. Or, you know, you end up feeling cheap because you couldn't aim in certain ways in the vanilla game. I get bothered by using things that feel like an exploit. Same reason I can't use NewDark for Thief, it changes the mantling mechanics in ways I can't handle. So it becomes an issue of abusing mechanics that weren't intended to be used, but I guess this is a bigger issue if you are me and mostly touch PWADs made in 1994.

>3d Models are as old as some of the people posting here
Yeah, back then they were terrible indeed. I like Quake's models. I hate Doomsday's, they look silly and goofy, not serious at all.

>Distortion
Could be worth the attempt. I would like to give it a fair shot. I think I also just disliked the puzzle aspects of the game, I prefer the simple "shoot and fight" aspect of Quake. Challenge versus puzzle, fighting visible opposition versus worrying if the game is broken in some way.

>Jumping
Exactly the problem, it exists, but only as an exploit. There is no sound to be heard when jumping, and the animation feels really quick. It doesn't feel as satisfying as Quake, nor is it as genuine as Quake.

[Anonymous No.4762442]

>>4762437
>Not even in arena shooters?
I actually never played much of those outside of Quake 3 Arena, so I couldn't much actually say.
Quake Champions PROBABLY has this, because it's expected of Quake.

>Quake was relatively linear.
Relatively, but you had backtracking and exploration. You'll NEVER see Quake style levels in something like Colladoody.

>Nonlinear in FPS makes me think more along the lines of Thief 2.
Duke Nukem 3D has notably very nonlinear level design in a lot of levels, something I love about it a lot. A lot of branching paths, lots of explorations and secrets, opening up paths and stuff to open up the level, etc.

>Exactly why I turn off the very minor autoaim in Quake.
I agree, it's pretty rigid. I like placing my own shots manually.

>Except the sprites warp.
Kinda, but not in OpenGL.

>you end up feeling cheap because you couldn't aim in certain ways in the vanilla game.
Well, Doom and Doom 2 are actually pretty easy as they are, hence why I like the more challenging nature of Thy Flesh Consumed and TNT Evilution (I'm not quite good enough yet at Plutonia). Just play at a higher difficulty to compensate, it's exciting.

>I get bothered by using things that feel like an exploit.
>So it becomes an issue of abusing mechanics that weren't intended to be used, but I guess this is a bigger issue if you are me and mostly touch PWADs made in 1994.
I can see where you're coming from, actually. I personally like jumping and crouching a lot purely for combat, and occasionally taking a shortcut back to somewhere I've already been, but I make the conscious effort to avoid using them in places I identify that I'm not supposed to.

[Anonymous No.4762481]

doom sucks

[Anonymous No.4762597]

>>4762437
FWIW, most levels people make for Doom aren't made with jumping or crouching in mind, some megawads even have an included file to temporary turn them off for you in some source ports, while you play them (you can override these though).

In the 2000's, there was this gradual revolution, partially thanks to the Boom mapping format (which is kind of like Vanilla++), where people would go less for ZDoom style advanced features, and focus on generally pretty pure Vanilla-ish gameplay and stuff like that, so many of the elaborate and hard worked on map packs for Doom usually are vanilla or Boom, while ZDoom mapping is less common.
People appreciate the original gameplay and limitations a lot (except the rendering and memory limits).

>I like Quake's models.
They're really neat, probably because they're professionally designed. I never liked the weapon models too much, but I always thought the monsters were super cool, like the Shambler or the knights.

>I hate Doomsday's, they look silly and goofy, not serious at all.
They're really bad. I think one of the big issue is that Doom's monsters are made for 8 directions of sprites, and animating with 2D frames, just pasting a 3D model onto this will look really awkward and unnatural. Notice how they move strangely slowly and look super stiff?

>I think I also just disliked the puzzle aspects of the game, I prefer the simple "shoot and fight" aspect of Quake. Challenge versus puzzle, fighting visible opposition versus worrying if the game is broken in some way.
I can see your position. Doom was never very big on puzzles, though Duke did them fairly often.
Thing with Duke's puzzles is that more often than not, you're just given a row of buttons and they have to activated in the right sequence, this is really easy to bruteforce, because you can seriously just randomly press the buttons until they go *BEEP*, and you're through. This isn't perhaps good design, but it's not that bad, IMO.

[Anonymous No.4762657]

>>4762597
Are there actually solutions to the Duke switch puzzles? I always bruteforced them, I thought that was what you were supposed to do.

[Anonymous No.4762697]

>>4762657
They all have a solution, but in like, one level in Atomic Edition, you can find the solution for a puzzle.

You can totally bruteforce them all though, and short of being a stalling tactic, I actually don't see that much point with them, because they're almost never a challenge.

[Anonymous No.4762704]

>>4762697
*they all have a solution you figure out by pressing the buttons, but only in one level will you find the solution given to you, displayed on a screen

[Anonymous No.4762710]

>>4762697
>>4762704
Ohh right yeah, I forgot they were "each button toggles some other buttons" types where you could logic them out, I did that for some of them, yeah. For a minute I thought you meant they all had hints to their solutions about the levels or something similar that I'd been missing.

[Anonymous No.4762761]

>>4762385
>Sequence break
This really is where my issues stem from. Yes, there are "fixes" for Doom, but because the original game wasn't designed for them, they end up being more like exploits. It has a different feel to Quake, where they were part of the game and thus fair to use.

>Height for interesting results
Except, because you can't really look up and down, it ends up being more of a frustration than anything. This is more of an issue in Doom II. Doom I was relatively flat, and thus more entertaining, while Doom II tried to be more ambitious with heights and thus feels far worse in the gameplay experience.

>>4762402
>Plenty of traps in Doom
Outside of explosive barrels, I can't think of much. You can only play so many explosive barrel puzzle levels...

>Monster closets and ambushes
Except Quake has all of this and makes it feel better due to having more lethal enemies. A fiend that can kill you in a single leap is a lot more risky than a collection of demons charging at you.

>It changes nothing
Yes, but I still consider it part of the experience. The inability to do such is a problem, since the game shouldn't be providing problems with this. I can understand, but my gaming OCD means I am destined to spam every wall after finishing a map, only to get frustrated because 91 of 99 secrets were flags that don't even exist in the map. At least Quake has convenient editors to figure this stuff out, I don't know any convenient manner to see where the secrets are in Doom, when the former isn't a problem.

>Level sets
Promising. I think the best level set I tried was Laura Beyer's Doom. Needless to say, I haven't really hit the high points. I have seen a lot of atrocities. I have played a lot of shovelware for Quake as well, but they don't share the same frustrations, perhaps due to learning from Doom or the simpler nature of the game.

[Anonymous No.4762783]

>4738728
keyboardfag here. I finished
every doom 1 episode including thy flesh consumed and doom 2 on Nightmare difficulty, no jumps or no crouching.

I regret nothing

[Anonymous No.4762793]

>>4762418
>Obviously
When arguing about Doom being dated, it does show an awareness of limitations. Quake, I would argue, shows no real limitations beyond the graphical (which of course is not an issue to an old school gamer). It isn't just that the world is 3d, it is all the new capabilities that entailed. It is the console instead of typing a few letter codes.

>Respect it
I never liked the use key. It resulted in too many Doom maps where they EXPECTED you to spam every wall, meaning a lot of shovelware levels where it becomes mandatory to do that to progress. The worst shovelware in Quake is not as bad due to the removal of such an element, the game wasn't designed with the expectation that you would Axe every wall.

>getting lost is THAT easy
You would be surprised. I am very good at getting lost, specifically in Doom but even more so in Duke 3d. Something about the more maze-like design throws me off, while in Quake I can always tell where I am.

>3d map
God no. I am glad no map was included, the alternative was making a map like Daggerfall's.

[Anonymous No.4762805]

>>4762442
>PROBABLY
I would hope so, this would be even more depressing to hear it was removed.

>Backtracking and exploration
I find that a bit... distressing. I see Quake, I see a game I think of as relatively linear. I can only imagine how bad it is today.

>Duke 3d
I will give you that, the maps were rather expansive. They tended to be more frustrating than anything for me, since I couldn't keep track of where I was and hunting for scratches on the wall tended to annoy me. I like more straightforward action. Doom has E3M6, which is a map I enjoy, but it also has E3M5 which I find a nuisance.

>Manually
It feels better. It feels nicer knowing you genuinely hit something, plus it allow for shooting barrels. Autoaim prioritizing monsters over barrels means that I tend to never blow them up unless I use explosives.

>Not in OpenGL
I used GZDoom for a while actually. The two choices I remember were between having a flat warp on a Y plane, or having things be invisible when they were directly above or below you. This isn't of course a fault with Doom, but does make it feel more dated.

>Higher difficulty to compensate
I never feel like I am being fair enough. I tend to play on Ultra Violence, so my only other solution would be Nightmare, and I dislike respawning enemies as they result in me feeling an urgency. I like exploring and seeing the world, with periods of urgency when in combat.

>Personally
To each their own. I can't bring myself to that. It would make barrel puzzle levels too easy, you could just jump over the barrels.

[Anonymous No.4762818]

>>4762597
>Appreciate limitations
You could say I am a traditionalist for most games I play, so I entirely understand that mindset. Additional features just changes the experience, makes it no longer feel like the original game.

>Professionally designed
That is perhaps it. I hold no problems at all with Quake's design.

>Super stiff
Perhaps that is my gripe with them. They always felt odd in their appearance and behavior. I guess that is why Doomsday never really took off, and instead we went the route of ZDoom. Easier to mod for as well, one thing I do have to praise about Doom is the randomizers. That type of feature adds a lot of replayability, something I wish more FPS games would offer.

>Doom was never very big on puzzles
Teleporter mazes. Having to shoot switches before a cage closes and permanently locks you in. Avoiding linedefs that otherwise permanently seal off the exit. Barrels exploding and you needing to escape the impact radius. Invisible mazes with drops everywhere that permanently seal you in the level. Sequences that must be done right or the game permanently seals you in the level. The vanilla game? Pretty straight forward. PWADs decided to make Doom into a puzzle game a good amount of the time to the point it felt like there was always some sadistic puzzle involving not getting locked into the level without realizing it due to being given little warning or having zero logic.

Duke, I can't remember too well, but I do recall the burger level and needing to shrink ray a mirror. I would say that was a puzzle.

[Anonymous No.4764035]

>>4762783
Keyboarding Nightmare is actually pretty impressive, particularly E4M1 and E4M2, those levels show no goddamn mercy already on UV.

[Anonymous No.4764038]

>>4762818
>Duke, I can't remember too well, but I do recall the burger level and needing to shrink ray a mirror. I would say that was a puzzle.
I really appreciated stuff like that, though.

[Anonymous No.4764049]

>>4762818
>Teleporter mazes. Having to shoot switches before a cage closes and permanently locks you in. Avoiding linedefs that otherwise permanently seal off the exit. Barrels exploding and you needing to escape the impact radius. Invisible mazes with drops everywhere that permanently seal you in the level. Sequences that must be done right or the game permanently seals you in the level.
I can't say I've ever played a map like that. I think Scythe 2 had a level where the secret exit was open under an extremely brief window of time, meaning if you wanted to play the secret levels (without cheating), you had to beat a hard map with really hard enemies, in a serious fucking hurry (like 30 seconds).
That's really the only devious "fuck the player and force him to reload" trap that comes to my mind. But then, I don't really play a lot of maps with a reputation of being a real son of a bitch to the player

>The vanilla game? Pretty straight forward. PWADs decided to make Doom into a puzzle game a good amount of the time to the point it felt like there was always some sadistic puzzle involving not getting locked into the level without realizing it due to being given little warning or having zero logic.
Again, can't say I've had much experience in that myself.
Doom 2 did have Barrels Of Fun, where you basically had to hurry and run from exploding barrels, and TNT Evilution had Last Call, where you have to pay attention to a series of colored torches and use that sequence to know which platforms you can step on without telefragging yourself.

The few times that Doom stumps me is usually when I'm looking at a secret I can't reach, or I'm really sure that there's a secret in one place, but I have no idea what the author wants me to do to open it.