Hidden boobies better than Team Dolls

[Anonymous No.4712597]

Exhumed / Powerslave thread

Also Build engine thread
Last one here >>4657353

Also EX/PS speedrun (WIP):
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGObtwZSkyGU_JqKA8CpseAr1HWY-1aDm

How many boobs did you find?
Levels: 1, 3, 7, 15, 17, 18.

[Anonymous No.4712713]

>>4712597
I got the Japanese version, '1999', on Saturn for quite cheap.
Any way to use the analogue stick controls? If not I'll rough it out.
Remember this game being really good back when I rented it.

[Anonymous No.4712861]

PowerSlave is some good shit, better than RR desu.

[NESfag No.4712867]

>>4712713
>I got the Japanese version, '1999', on Saturn for quite cheap.

Good job man

I looked for 5 months before finding an iso of that version

It's pretty good; it's the US version except you got 5 more max Cobra shots

Somehow that was reverted in the PAL version that was released later.

[Anonymous No.4712956]

West Bank >>> Mirage Barrage
Discuss.

[NESfag No.4713921]

>>4712956
They're different and show a different mentality of level design imo.
West Bank is more grand and is more about exploration in a well organized maze.

Mirrage Barrage has a more modern and streamlined design, something which was already true with the original DN3D if you compare it to all the more "maze like" Wolf and Doom clones before its times, and which is even more true in Alien World Order.

That difference really shows the difference in level design mentality between both games. Dos Powerslave was about bringing the maze like design of pre-DN3D games to a new level, and to its apogee.
DN3D was something more, while it still has interconnected design, we can't qualify it as "maze like" anymore.

It's a shame Lobotomy didn't use slopes in Powerslave. Either they didn't know they had them, or decided not to use them because the game was already pretty much done when they were included, or decided not to use them because they were still in an unfinished state...

But considering what they did without slopes, and that they barely feel missing, I can't help bu wonder what they'd have done with it.
An actual pyramid I guess.

in b4 slopefag

[Anonymous No.4713971]

>>4712956
Mirage Barrage >>>>> all the shit from Powerslave.

[Anonymous No.4713978]

What are the best levels of Powerslave? Haven't played it so far, so will watch a video about it and analyse here after that.

[Anonymous No.4713983]

>>4713921
That's a very interesting take (with as much as almost framing Blum as HL-style mapping progenitor). However there is a certain problem. That problem is that I really wouldn't call Romero as having this sprawling bend in his mapping. If anything, he was, just the opposite, heavily prone to linearizing his levels and to almost micromanaging player's behavior through restricting the player while making him react to this and that. If anything, the sprawls in id games (that, I think, originated from dungeon crawlers through Catacomb3D), I think, primarily originated first, from Tom Hall, then from Petersen (Willits liked non-linearity too, but his levels were more loopy than sprawling due to him trying to pander to deathmatchers). Then there were, of course, Heretic and HeXen, which, despite Romero's involvement in their production, again, have dungeoncrawly-sort-of origins (Black Crypt and Shadowcaster).

Also, wasn't Powerslave's very initial idea, back in 1993, something like "something like Ultima Underworld, only in Egypt" well, before they tried to license Build and got in talks with Scott Miller and that sort of stuff?

Anyway when comparing Romero and Blum in particular, with both having tendency to make their levels linear, I would say, that the difference is that Romero's levels are abrasive, they actively resist the player making progress, and they require him to constantly overcome new challenges the leveldesigner comes up with. While Blum's levels more like, sort of, bait the player to go with the flow, to not to stop walking forward. Which, is, yes, pretty much another way of saying that they are streamlined in some sense or other.

And while I would say, that despite their dungeonrawly flair, and despite their convoluted path of intended progression, PC-Powerslave levels are by and large still more or less linear, I would definitely classify them as abrasive type of linearity, all the traps and such considered, rather than the streamlined type.

[Anonymous No.4713990]

>>4713983
tl;dr: Main progression path: confrontation (Romero) vs cooperation (Blum).

[Anonymous No.4713995]

>>4713990
Also, the dungeoncrawly sprawling elements of the map obfuscate the main progression path, thus, again, providing additional resistance in regards to player's attempts to progress.

[Anonymous No.4714026]

>>4713983
Against thee wickedly is a really good example of Romero's abrasive gauntlet style. With a pistol start the map is only beatable with finding a secret with the plasma gun, and you have to manage your way through the lava shit perfectly to not die. Lots of micromanagement is needed there.

Romero hits the jackpot with his 2016 levels though. They look good, they are not that difficult, but also not pushovers.

[Anonymous No.4714031]

It's a very pretty retro FPS with an excellent soundtrack, but the gameplay in the DOS version is kinda ass. The PSX/Saturn version (also recently ported to the PC by Kaiser as PowerSlave EX) is way more fun to play, even though the levels are somewhat tiny and blocky in comparison. In the console version you get a lot of Metroid like upgrades and there are secrets everywhere that can only be reached after acquiring certain upgrades, so the exploration aspect feels very addictive. The DOS/Build version is just a bland Doom clone in comparison however. Really dull even compared to Heretic.

Personally, I 100% everything in PowerSlave, including all the secret dolls. But I kinda lost interest on the DOS version after reaching Luxor. It's just a grind, you run around massive mazes listening to that giant wasp "trrrr-trr-trrrr" sound on loop.

[Anonymous No.4714064]

>>4713978
Unfortunately 90% of the videos on YouTube covering PowerSlave are about how good the console versions (and PowerSlaveEX by its similarities to the PSX version) are.

The DOS version gets basically no love or recognition from anyone that I can see outside of the already established Build engine games' communities, and even then it's only recognition because of it being another Build engine game, not because of its qualities.

[Anonymous No.4714081]

>>4714031
I don't know about that. I think I got lost like a grand total of one time while playing through PS DOS, I found the level design to be consistently above average and often good or great. I don't think there is anything at all wrong with the game being a Doom clone style of FPS instead of a Metroidvania FPS like the console versions.

Every enemy has their counters and specific uses for certain weapons, and the game is designed around ammo conservation (while the M60 is good at everything, it's a waste to use it against certain things because you will run out of ammo for it often). Revolver & Flamethrower for spiders, zombies and mummies. M60 for lava bros, wasps and sentries (but because these enemies are either few and far between, or absent until the later stages of the game it lets you mow enemies down with the M60 for quite some time). Grenades for entrenched positions, around corners, etc. (actually very good at this because a lot of the enemies are really slow moving aside from the wasps, you can spot them, back off and toss some grenades). The Serpent Staff and Manacle of Power are great for the boss fights, but the M60 with weapon power is great too. Note that all of this nuance with weapons is completely lost in the console versions because they use a universal ammo system.

Maybe it helped that I've played through some real retro fps maze garbage like Wolf 3D & Spear of Destiny prior to it, though - a necessary stepping stone to Doom but really not very fun to play if you have played literally any retro fps that came after.

[Anonymous No.4714539]

>>4714081
Looks like serpents was originally planned for the wasps:
http://forums.r-t-c-m.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&p=317#p317
And it took me a while to discover that you can obtain each weapon (not ammo) only on a specific level.
Revolver and M60 only on first level.
Flame thrower only on level 3 and you can easy miss it.
Serpent staff only on level 6.
Manacle only on level 8.
With only grenades as exception (can be found on any level).
Thanks to the egyptian gods that you can replay any level and get the missing weapons.

[NESfag No.4714592]

>>4714539
Well I'll be damned, but I always thought it was great that Wasps don't get one shot by Cobra shots.

I mean, every other regular does, so it's good we have to switch to another weapon for the Wasps.

>>4714081
I tend to use Cobra a lot against Bastet (disappearing woman beasts) because it gets rid of them fast, before they get annoying.
I also use it a lot against Kilmaats

I actually think Cobra is a waste of time against mini-bosses like Am-Mit and Magmantis. I always take out the M60 for those.
Although, between Am-Mit's invulnerable frames, and Magmantis hiding for cover quite often; missed shots can happen; and wasting Cobra shot feels like a huge waste to me.

[Anonymous No.4714616]

Both Powerslave and Exhumed with Dehacker patch and CD music. This time strafing is also fixed.
https://mega.nz/#!dcoljSbA!7Dw2-BO_zNE63QVbEJ5IDlfI2kyGp0XXFCnYtx6lMqk

[Anonymous No.4714650]

Playing Metropolitan Mayhem.

Duke's Day - NESfag, I really like your sense of verticality and how you handle open areas and encourage exploration. I really hope to see more of that in the maps I haven't played yet. In fact, I really-really liked that the blue key could be reached while skipping the red door completely through a series of some really tricky jumps. I liked that, it really continues to give me strong Deus Ex vibes. BTW, I am sorry, but I didn't like any of your Duke Hard maps.

Croque Monsieur - first map by MRCK I've played. There seems to be some sort of individual style there, but what it's all about remains to be seen. I definitely intend to play at least a couple more maps by him.

Office Onslaught - pretty half-assed for Mikko Sandt. I really like his style in general, but I definitely expected more from this map.

City Lights - Eh: The Map. Nothing special at all.

Moving onto the secret map.

[Anonymous No.4714717]

Why does the protagonist of Exhumed involuntarily gulp this down?

[Anonymous No.4714778]

>>4714650
>Metropolitan Mayhem
I played it, but it looked amateurish at the first few maps, then it got your typical scatterbrained usermap bullshit later on.

[NESfag No.4714971]

>>4714650
>>4714778
All of the maps in MM were built in a day. In fact, the rules kinda changed along the way and it became "in 24hours", but that's still very short.

The secret map is an exception as MRCK took bits and pieces of his previous maps that he stiched together and added some conceptual rooms in between. It's also very unforgiving.


I really don't feel good about Duke's Day at all, it was more of an attempt for me at the time to see what I could come up if I sat in front of my computer in one day, without any plan ahead, and have a finished map by nighttime.
It ended up being a rip-off between E1L1 and E1L2 except boring because made quickly. Think of cool the street looks in E1L1 but mine is all 90° angles and squares.

I do feel good about Sex City and Submerged Zone, if only because by that time they were a little more ambitious. Duke's Day was made first.

I'm sorry you didn't like the Duke Hard maps, what was wrong with them?

[Anonymous No.4715043]

>>4714971
I never understood these weird rules mappers use when make their maps. A good map needs a lot of work and polish, maybe even months. Also these 20 sector challenge and whatever shit that never turns out to be good. Community Build projects are also the result of these rules, and they usually turn into mess.

Duke Hard had some OK levels, don't remember the names though. Metropolitan Mayhem was jack shit from start to finish. I know Alien World Order was a commercial product, but even the weaker levels are much more interesting there than in these TCs.

[Anonymous No.4715093]

>>4714616
Thanks nigga

[Anonymous No.4715146]

>>4714971
I kind of didn't get the point of the first map. I mean, it was playable, you also boasted about references to the movie and stuff, but it, uh, it left me with the impression that it was stylized in order to fit some bullshit community standards, not as self-expression. In fact, I can only remember some very small and smudged bits and pieces about it, in the sense that nothing really stood out in it.

Your secret and boss maps were of "In you FACE!" kind, and, well, after some time I decided that my time could be spent in much more pleasant ways than playing through that edgy bullshit. In a sense, SWEENEY and SEWER reminded me of those two maps in terms of monster placements.

Mikko's map for DukeHard was pretty good, although I am currently digging his early MSSP stuff more (also his LAPD level from Metropolitan Mayhem was, as much of halfassery, as Office Onslaught, I guess, now I know why). Didn't play any of the other ones.

I didn't find your Duke Hard map very derivative of E1L1 and E1L2 at all, mainly due to how much you could access with some jumping, THAT really made the map stand out for me, like, "Let me see, just how much I can access without really going anywhere, the author clearly wants me to go". Going past the red door (I returned to it later, of course) to access blue card was just icing on the cake. No, really, the main thing that made this level memorable for me in terms of exploration was that it subverted somewhat my expectations of what was possible to explore there. It made me question what was possible, go with what ifs. It just felt good not knowing what I will or won't be able to reach MY way.

Sex City is also a very good map. Despite being indoor one, it sticks out with how layered it is (also, as in Galbadia, reusage of keycards).

I enjoyed the secret level (also, MRCK clearly likes to hide his keys). Skipped the Submerged Zone (sorry, but I absolutely hate the level it was clearly based upon).

[Anonymous No.4715169]

>>4715146
>I kind of didn't get the point of the first map.
I mean, from Duke Hard.

>I didn't find your Duke's Day map
Fix.

Also, I am currently at that Rabid Transit ripoff level by MRCK - and I gotta say, that his apparent habit of stuffing keys in non-evident places gets annoying on expansive maps with no direction as to where sayd keycard could be hidden. As in this very map. I think, I'll just skip to the next one.

Also, about your maps. Ultimately, what I liked about Galbadia, Duke's Day and Sex City was that they had personality. Sin Center too, but it had kind of way too much of Mikko's style. Galbadia was ''let's just see what else we can add to this map", Duke's Day was layered because of verticality and platforming, Sex City was layered due to constant backtracking with different keycards and stuff. There was sense of discovery and surprise. There was stuff that felt legitimately inspired, not rehashed.

My point is: ever thought about just saying "Fuck it", loosening up a bit with "muh standards" and just going for it? I honestly, personally, prefer your "non-rehearsed" stuff so far.

[Anonymous No.4715172]

>>4714717
Obviously because he can!

[Anonymous No.4715189]

>>4714971
Also, even if rushed, it would be a travesty to compare your speedmaps with, oh, let's say, two Sarge's (of Blutal Doom fame) speedmaps for zDoom. Now, THOSE were some legitimate fucking garbage.

Just saying.

[Anonymous No.4715297]

>>4715169
NESfag = MetHy?

[Anonymous No.4715324]

What was your favourite level in Ion Maiden, /vr/?

I gotta say mine is Daedolon's subway section. It looked really interesting and closer to classic Build, but with more details.

[Anonymous No.4715369]

>>4715297
Yes.

[Anonymous No.4715402]

>>4715146
>In fact, I can only remember some very small and smudged bits and pieces about it, in the sense that nothing really stood out in it.
(talking about DukeHard's Lobby) Actually, no. Come to really, really think of it, the printer gimmick seemed to be the clear centerpiece. It's just... what did all the other parts of the level have to do with it? Also, it's not that I'm criticizing it, it's that I admit that I am still kind of very much missing the point, I think.

[NESfag No.4716369]

>>4715146
>>4715169
I see what you mean.

>Your secret and boss maps were of "In you FACE!" kind, and, well, after some time I decided that my time could be spent in much more pleasant ways than playing through that edgy bullshit.

The point was to try and make Duke maps that were challenging because of enemy choice and placement, not because of the sheer ammount of enemies, or the lack of supplies, or because of cheap shots.
Well apparently it failed for you if you think it's "IN YOUR FACE" and is as bad as SWEENEY for enemy placement. The way I concieved them was that the player could rush in like he's playing BTSX in Doom, but only then to take cover to assess the situation and the next corner he's going to rush to. If you stay in one spot you're fucked, but if you move around you'll find plenty of supplies everywhere.

>the main thing that made this level memorable for me in terms of exploration was that it subverted somewhat my expectations of what was possible to explore there.

You got a point there, I always love that stuff too. I'll try to keep it in mind.

>There was stuff that felt legitimately inspired, not rehashed.

Well the whole idea being Sex City I borrowed from Roch4: "start the map by going around it, looking at all the main rooms before being able to access them". The execution is quite different yes, but the base I didn't come up with.

>ever thought about just saying "Fuck it", loosening up a bit with "muh standards" and just going for it?

Well yes, on top of the speedmapping aspect, that's what Metropolitan Mayhem was all about. I wondered "why do you guys all make Roch-like maps when there could be so much more?". The speed limit was a way to force the mappers involved not to spend time on extra detailing, but focusing on the layout first.
At least it had an impact on MRCK who then started laying maps in a different spirit, which were based on unique gameplay ideas (for the better and for worse).

[NESfag No.4716373]

>>4716369
My SW and PS maps also go in that sense, the attempt to step away from "communitiy standards" and create something that looks and feels more like the original game's maps, while focusing on the layout of the maps with clear gameplay ideas before even building the first wall.

Anyway thanks for your comments. I see your points, not sure I agree about the secret and boss maps of Duke Hard but I guess I'd have to see you play to understand.
You should give Submerged Zone a try, you may like the fact that at one point you can "make yourself" a secondary path by pulling a jump.

[Anonymous No.4718168]

Ion Maiden map ranking:

Disrupted Service (the subway) > Nukage Nightmare (boss) > Defense farce (opening base+street) > Washington Wasteland (offices) > Blast Processing (techbase on 2nd level)

[Anonymous No.4718239]

Freeway is easily the third best Blum's map (and the best of his street maps), right after Dark Side and Derelict.

[Anonymous No.4718496]

>>4718239
What about Hollywood Holocaust, Death Row, Fusion Station, Lunar Reactor, Duke Burger and Golden Carnage?

[Anonymous No.4718741]

>>4716373
Thanks for the insight!

[Anonymous No.4718763]

>>4718168
The subway was indeed cool. Loved those posters with MTV jokes or the american burgers.

[NESfag No.4718783]

>>4718168
Yes I liked the subway the best as well. In hindsight it's a very linear map but there are enough side-steps moments for the player to make it feel not so.

I love the green room fight with the 2 turrets. Not matter how you go at it, and there are plenty of ways, it always works.

However I would have liked a b-path of some sort through the map. There are 5 or 6 "b-paths" in the map but pretty much all of them are very small and not impactful at all (for instance the first vent at the start of the map, which brings you only 2 feet away from if you take the door instead... imo it should have led near the destroyed part at the end of the corridor at least).
I would have loved a "b path" to enter the green room with 2 turrets. Something that lets you take the room starting from a completely different angle. Also perhaps used the small sewer path for that, since its only point is to backtrack.

[NESfag No.4718790]

>>4718168
Yes I liked the subway the best as well. In hindsight it's a very linear map but there are enough side-steps moments for the player to make it feel not so.

I love the green room fight with the 2 turrets. Not matter how you go at it, and there are plenty of ways, it always works.

However I would have liked a b-path of some sort through the map. There are 5 or 6 "b-paths" in the map but pretty much all of them are very small and not impactful at all (for instance the first vent at the start of the map, which brings you only 2 feet away from if you take the door instead... imo it should have led near the destroyed part at the end of the corridor at least).
I would have loved a "b path" to enter the green room with 2 turrets. Something that lets you take the room starting from a completely different angle. Also perhaps used the small sewer path for that, since its only point is to backtrack.

Anyway - the mapper has a knack for architecture and texturing, and making the two go together. Everything looks so perfect, so clean, like every single is at the perfect height and every single texture has the perfect size and stretching. In a way the maps are not too detailed, but with little he managers to make it look great. It was the same in his Duke Hard map and it's very inspiring in a way.

[Anonymous No.4718836]

>>4718790
What was his Duke Hard map?

[NESfag No.4718872]

>>4718836
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mabGonT2hc

[Anonymous No.4718917]

>>4718315
>>>/vg/

[Anonymous No.4718991]

The subway level is so good, you can think it was a Blum map. If Daedolon keeps up this good work, we will see some high quality stuff in the final game.

[Anonymous No.4719014]

>>4718496
Hollywood Holocaust is directly trumped by Freeway.
Death Row and Duke Burger are not "street" levels, but rather "building" levels and as such are clearly trumped by Derelict.
Fusion Station and Lunar Reactor are trumped by Dark Side.

Dark Side, Derelict and Freeway are all the highest points of different Blum's mapping styles, both layout-wise and artistry-wise, when compared to the rivals in their respective categories.

Freeway is like a big farewell to Hollywood Holocaust style in an episode, almost entirely consisting of Levelord's maps. Its secret status in a way reminds me of the initial secret status of Dark Side in a beta, the level was clearly meant to be special - and it very much delivers on being that.

Golden Carnage doesn't fit in any of those three categories (actually, there is fourth: Blum trying to copycat Levelord for some reason or other, as in that E4M4 level, but Golden Carnage doesn't fit that category either) but it's honestly somewhat scatterbrained, and the potential of its style could clearly be developed further. Nevertheless, I would place it at the fourth place.

[Anonymous No.4719059]

Any way to see original maps' date (created and last modified) attributes?

[Anonymous No.4719068]

>>4719059
For Duke, that is.

[NESfag No.4719117]

>>4719059
Try extracting them from the GRP using GRPVIEWER

[Anonymous No.4719217]

>>4719117
The fucker overwrites the attributes. As does XGroup.

[Anonymous No.4719230]

>>4719059
Sorry, but nor GRP, nor MAP formats contain any datetime infromation.

[Anonymous No.4719237]

>>4719230
That really sucks. Thanks for the info though.

[Anonymous No.4719393]

Uh, about those Roch maps. So I've played a fair chunk of the first map and a bit a second.
And you know what? Those maps give me a strong impression of being created by a stereotypical pampered bourgeois, who mistakes being satiated with being wealthy.
They depict this stereotypical dream neighborhood, choke-full of toys, banal little "secret", places to """explore""" and supplies. You are all that challenged, just so to give you an opportunity to flex your muscles, to show that you have enough supplies to handle it. I think the whole point is actually to teach you to top off, to make it a habit, when encountering a box of shotgun ammo, having already 48 shells, to pick it up regardless, not to save it for later. Just to show that you can handle wasting those 8 shells that won't fit. The whole thing just screams "look at us never having any necessity in anything we desire" or more like "look at how much food we have". The problem however is, that if a person seriously boasts about having plenty to eat, than, probably 1) he is not all that wealthy - and 2) the neighborhood isn't really all that prosperous since there are those he boasts in front of - who, naturally, aren't supposed to have what he has.
Anyway, the whole thing just reeks of some fat kid who has this annoying habit of stuffing his face with whatever sweets while not being hungry in the slightest, just to show that he is provided with the means to do that. Just to make people envy, thus getting to be their center of attention.
I'll be honest, there are some little nice ideas tucked here and there. And the camera being mounted on a car seriously surprised me the first time around. However the whole thing just reeks of being this completely pointless trinket and a timesink, and frankly, I would just rather skip to whenever it REALLY starts to get good or seriously noteworthy if ever. Because, right now, this "cornucopia of whatever bullshit details" isn't all that interesting to me, to be quite honest.

[Anonymous No.4719398]

>>4719393
>banal little "secrets"
>You are never all that challenged

[Anonymous No.4719402]

>>4719014
>Hollywood Holocaust is directly trumped by Freeway.

I don't think so. They had similar kind of streets, but Hollywood have a relatively large building to discover as well. It also has more secrets, more interconnections, more interactivity. As much as I love Freeway, Hollywood is the more memorable map.

Also, when you said Golden Carnage's theme should be developed further, I felt exactly the same with these street maps. I would love to see a Blum city that looks as complex as L6 on Lameduke. It feels like an unfinished job.

>Death Row and Duke Burger are not "street" levels, but rather "building" levels and as such are clearly trumped by Derelict.

As I said, Hollywood is also a building level. And Duke Burger has at least the same amount of street action if not more.

Blum's stlye is more about polarizing the inner and outer parts of the map (and that's painfully missing in other mappers' style from the classic Build era). Blum tends to build maps that either start outside with a large building in the sight to discover or start inside with a clearly indicated mission to get out to the fresh air.

Hollywood Holocaust, Fusion Station, Duke Burger, Derelict, Mirage Barrage and Golden Carnage are typical examples of going in, while Death Row, Toxic Dump, Lunar Reactor and Dark Side are typical examples of going out.

With that said, the going out category's winner is Dark Side (with Death Row as a noble second), the going in category's winners are either Derelict or Golden Carnage,although as much as you hate it, I put Mirage Barrage in this category too.

[Anonymous No.4719425]

>>4719393
The same problem appears in other people's maps as well (see the Red series for example, or the maps by MRCK). Coincidentally they are usually frech or frech speaking people. They might have different values in life and that's what you see manifested in their maps.

This kind of mapping style was the norm in the early 2000s, luckily the community got over it, although recent releases ADG6 or Shaky Grounds feel like some time travel to this kind of mapping era.

[Anonymous No.4719427]

>>4719425
Seriously, early MRCK did that sort of thing?

[Anonymous No.4719501]

>>4719427
Most of his map feature elaborate texturing/decorations and a lot of spritework, yet the actual gameplay areas are really cramped. At least that's how I remember them.

[Anonymous No.4719954]

Why the heck isn't new Bombshell based on that "get off vent or I'll have you bent" chick?

[Anonymous No.4720609]

>>4719501
That is a typical scatterbrained type of texturing and spritework which plagued most of the early 2000s user levels.

[NESfag No.4720989]

>>4719393
The author of Roch maps is an architect irl.

The primary aspect of those maps and the kind of maps it influenced was to come up with interesting un-intended texture use using only stock content. Some mappers like MRCK did a good job coming up with their own styles with that method.

>>4719425
>although recent releases ADG6 or Shaky Grounds feel like some time travel to this kind of mapping era.

I didn't feel that way at all. Sure, there are remnants, old habits, but those maps and Shaky Ground 1 and 2 in particular felt like they were stepping away from that a little and genuinely think of the grander scheme, in terms of scale, environment and gameplay. I thought they were a step in the right direction.
The old Alejandro style is know for overtailed architecture but ADG06 was different for the most part.

[Anonymous No.4721048]

>>4720989
>architect
So what? So is the author of Unreal's Bluff Eversmoking, for example. See his Odyssey.wad for Doom 2.

[Anonymous No.4721062]

>>4721048
>author of Bluff Eversmoking
I mean, Myscha the Sled Dog, that is. I think there are other Odyssey.wad-s by different people.

Anyway, my point is, being an architect IRL isn't a magical explanation to everything style-related, and architects still do exhibit as wildly different mapping styles, as non-architects do.

[NESfag No.4721168]

>>4721062
>>4721048
I was answering that for your "pampered bourgeois who doesn't know what it is being in need" analysis.

Not that I'm saying architects are all like that, but usually they do have a comfortable income.

[Anonymous No.4721230]

>>4721168
More like "who wants others to know he is NOT in need".
A little nitpick.

Thanks for your answers.

[Anonymous No.4721245]

>>4721230
Maybe it's even more about "I am not poor, I am a miser, difference is I am not saving up on myself (evidenced by my spending extra on myself); either way you are not getting any". Which is, like, "OK, good for, I didn't ask you for entertainment, you offered it by yourself to begin with".

Anyway, I am just doing some mental gymnastics and trying to put my impressions into words, take it with a hefty grain of salt.

[Anonymous No.4721268]

So Build engine maps are good for psycho-analyses? You should go back to "Mirage Barrage suxx, because the Wolf3D maze" posts, they are more productive.

[Anonymous No.4721284]

>>4719402
I'll just offer my current impressions the way I am able to currently formulate them. I still don't get Blum's style despite my repeated attempts, so keep that in mind too.

Freeway is a map with a clear centerpiece, that blocked up path of the highway where two mini-battlelords spawn. That centerpiece is surrounted from all sides with buildings (and a fence) thus resembling a resevoir. The rooms in adjacent buildings are treated more like balconies to this central reservoir. This sort of spatial setup makes it apparent, that this centerpiece part of the street is ultimately treated exactly as a building would be treated as, from the standpoint of the geometry of the level, meaning, it's just a building without a roof structurally. This actually makes the whole inner/outer difference completely inconsequential, or more like only a matter of texturing or something. Gameplay-wise that part of the street with rooms overseeing it is a fucking building with balconies, period. Treating "inner" and "outer" parts of level-design differently is thus just an appropriation of real-life way of thinking in where that way of thinking doesn't really belong.

Next, Fusion Station, Lunar Reactor and Dark Side comprise a sequence of levels with the common thread being that they are highly linear and streamlined while posing for sprawls (they do so by opening up - forgot the way - the alternate short pathways after you access the place normally, the long way). Dark Side is special among them because first it poses for a sprawl presenting you with a "hub" with three keycarded doors, each of which leads you to a linear sequence of rooms which are not really all that connected to one another - but it's special in a way, that after the third door it DROPS the pretension of NOT being linear and just goes for it. It's also self-referential in the recurring theme of trains,
(cont)

[Anonymous No.4721290]

>>4721268
Actually, yes, that's exactly what I treat the "le auteur" leveldesigns as. Psychoanalysis in pictures. Or more like structures.

[Anonymous No.4721327]

>>4721284
(About Freeway) Also it could be, that buildings in Blum's level serve as visual metaphors for level itself. So, like, Duke Burger has the outer part - and it has like inner part, which is, like, level-within-a-level.

(cont) and the overall dreamy/somnambulist/hypnotic atmosphere (as if I don't have a choice other than to follow the way). In other words, as see this map as highly self-referential, and it seems to me that this is the map where Blum actually realized that his maps, at least, some of them, are, at the end of the day, highly linear experiences.

Two other (other than Freeway a) maps that I SUSPECT to be self-referential are Derelict and, strangely enough, Mirage Barrage. Both I suspect make a point about the way they were made, it's just that for Mirage Barrage I didn't really happen to LIKE that point (which I can't put into words yet anyway). Derelict is just weird, some aspects of it, I do get. It's a level with a long history, starting from LameDuke. However, in LameDuke the progression was exactly in the reverse. Which shows in the final level, that gets progressively easier and looser after the engine room. So you sort of get in, you progress to the engine room, you get out. It's more or less symmetric that way, which (through the statement that it COULD probably also be completed from the end to beginning) is the way it emphasizes its centerpiece, the engine room itself. However, what I don't understand, is what its environmental design has to do with that kind of point. And this level has way too prominent environmental design just to disregard it.

Mirage Barrage, well, for this one I have even less, I group that level with Babe Land, and I see Babe Land as a consciously linear level made in the aftermath of Dark Side (or more like type of the level it wouldn't make sense for Blum to create BEFORE Dark Side). I also suspect Occupied Territory to belong to the same category and, thus, having been created AFTER Dark Side, but (cont)

[Anonymous No.4721339]

>>4721327
(cont) without having the datetime information on the original maps (which, sadly, didn't seem to "survive"), that would be impossible to verify.

Hollywood Holocaust strikes me as a map without a clear centerpiece or more like as a map with two competing centerpieces. It's simultaneously, as you >>4719402 said, a street level and a building level, moreover, the building part doesn't seem to have a clear centerpiece of its own, it almost feels to me just, like, a bunch of rooms cobbled together. To be quite honest, I just don't see it as anything special. It's a good playable map, with interactivity and stuff, but I think it's insanely overrated for the sole reason of being the first one in the shareware portion of the game - AND being a really well-done map, when compared to, say, Seppuku Station.

Death Row, Toxic Dump and Tiberius Station I haven't pistolstart-replayed yet.

[Anonymous No.4721342]

>>4721284
Shortcut, that's the word.

[Anonymous No.4721416]

>>4721284
What I learned from Blum's mapping style:

1. He used large scale for outside locations to make his maps look bigger than they are and give them a more 3D and realistic feel, and a cinematic experience for the player. Very few pro designers managed to do this of his contemporaries, neither Levelord (except maybe in The Abyss), nor any of the Shadow Warrior or Blood designers, which clearly hurt both games' quality. Blum also used the perfect size for the inside parts, they are never cramped or oversized.

Other than Blum, Robert Travis understood the sizing's importance the most, but he didn't have the talent (or wish) to add dynamics to his maps, and at the end of the day, they all felt boring processions despite the cinematic looks from the outside. Promise without delivery.

2. His texturing choices are very strict and focused. If you play Golden Carnage for example, you can realise that all inside places use the same texture combinations, and the outside parts use their strict combos as well (and also all the doors, even the sounds are the same). He always used limited tools if there was an engine restriction, but these restrictions what gave these maps a true character and not just an ecclectic mess feel.

Actually a few others understood this rule as well, The Plug and Pray guy for example managed to use focused, strict textures too (even for doors, just look at Nightmare Zone or Gates Motel), but other things are somewhat dysfunctional in his maps.

3. Enemy placement is also strict in Blum's maps. If you double-check them, very few of his maps used both Pigcops and Enforcers for example, and in the case of Freeway, there were no Liztroops. All of them are intentional skips to give the map a true character with its own enemy set. Also the enemies are not randomly placed, but they all have their job and place. Fusion Station shows very well what I say.

Rule 2 and 3 are usually missing from userlevels, and they end up being scatterbrained copycats.

[Anonymous No.4721442]

>>4721416
>Other than Blum, Robert Travis understood the sizing's importance the most
Oh man, you should totally play his Moonbase Beta One and Anselm maps, lol.
I won't divulge, just why. You'll see.

[Anonymous No.4721561]

>>4721442
Well, sizing alone is not enough to succeed, you must have a good visual sense to make those large outdoors to be realistic, or more precisely cinematic (realism is undefined in space levels, that's why).

Blum's outdoors are not just large Unreal type weirdo areas, or scatterbrained stuff in an oversized hub area, but there is a (usually big) structure in sight you have to conquer. That structure is the map's theme, and the outdoors are the perspective.

Travis did these elements well in his DC maps (massive improvement over the Anslem type shitstorm), unfortunately he failed in other areas, especially weapon and monster placement, stiff dynamics (like the lack of colors or lights in his levels).

From modern mappers, I can think of William Gee, but his maps are more like Unreal clones, and not vintage Duke, or Mikko/Gambini in Duke Forever. The Las Vegas and the Hoover Dam almost felt like having Blum calibre scaling. Ion Maiden's subway map also have Blum quality scaling moments, like the escalators, which looked amazing, despite being technically indoors.

Too bad Levelord wasn't interested in scaling. As soon as you drop into Raw Meat's rooftop, you realise this won't be in the same league as Hollywood Holocaust. Not to mention the blocky design in the other Build engine games.

[NESfag No.4721573]

>>4721339
What you're missing about HH is that it's one huge tutorial and demonstration level.
It teachers the player in intuitive ways everything is going to need to know.
I feel like the reason why weapons and items are taken away in E1L3 is exactly because HH threw pretty much everything (the shareware had) to the player so he could learn.

That + it's probably the map with the most freedom of approach, and it works great no matter how the player approaches it.

[Anonymous No.4721597]

>>4721573
We shouldn't forget the shareware has a demo for this level and it showed the 3 earliest secrets to the player to understand there are more stuff when we think. That was part of the HH experience.

[Anonymous No.4723018]

Bump. Why these Build threads have so few replies compared to Doom threads?

[Anonymous No.4723045]

>>4721442
To be fair those were his earlier maps, Beta Two is basically a remake of Beta One (mostly anyways) and it's fantastic.

>>4721561
>tfw been mapping and modding since 1999 and nobody ever namedrops me

although to be fair I think most of my stuff is actually pretty poor, it's only in the last few years I think I've actually managed to become genuinely good at map making (even my stuff in my last big release I could nitpick the fuck out of, but I'm doing some maps for AA and one of them I think is my best work yet)

[Anonymous No.4723047]

>>4723018
A number of reasons. Build is just more niche, Doom has gone mainstream and to be blunt there's probably a few people who keep the thread going. I could talk build engine all day but most of the time build threads only revolve around the base game or people just shitting on user generated content (which is 99% of what the doom thread talks about)

[Anonymous No.4723263]

>>4723018
also comedy answer: because build bros actually have day jobs whereas doom dummies are mostly NEETS

just kidding, I love all of you guys

[Anonymous No.4723268]

>>4723263
Based Douk about to get that hybrid pussy.

[Anonymous No.4723302]

>>4723047
>people just shitting on user generated content
This is something I don't get at all, even in recent months there were at least a couple of good usermaps released.

[Anonymous No.4723316]

>>4723045
I wouldn't call Beta Two a remake, to be honest. But yes, it's definitely a very playable map. I haven't played Aztec in order to pass a judgement on whether it is closer to Anselm or to Beta Two, but in case Aztec is closer to Anselm, then Beta Two is his first really playable map.
Hoth, however, is Fucking Amazing. It's like he realized that his maps would be much more playable if he made his VAST EXPANSES strictly vertical (so that the player wouldn't have to traverse them). It's a ridiculously tight and up to the point level that still manages to be highly memorable despite being basically a(n enhanced) remake of the first half of Dark Forces' map 5 (or something).
I haven't played his DC stuff, but after Hoth, I am definitely checking it out eventually.
>tfw been mapping and modding since 1999 and nobody ever namedrops me
Care to share some of your stuff here? I'll gladly play it.

[Anonymous No.4723363]

>>4723316
no worries it was only in jest since 99% of my shit has been stuff featured in mods, the only truly standalone level I've done has been Dracula's Castle and even that has custom resources in it:

http://msdn.duke4.net/hotdracula.php

[Anonymous No.4723374]

>>4723302
The same goes in Doom community.

[Anonymous No.4723481]

>>4723316
Played through the first D.C. map, then through Aztec.

Don't have much to say about the D.C. one (other than after Hoth it was a disappointment), have something to say about Aztec.

Beta Two isn't the first playable map by Travis, Aztec is, and the difference between it and the previous map by the same author, Anselm, is quite stunning, actually. Beta Two simply follows the mold Aztec establishes with some occasional extra stuff. Aztec has some interesting artistry too. The mumbling, the hanged monk, that sort of stuff, the beginning stream you have several "chances" to revisit. Atmospheric stuff.

That isn't what I wanted to talk about though.

You see, as I was playing the D.C. level and the Aztec, I started to pose a question: why do I tend to lost my sense of direction in the maps created by this author. Where do I turn? Have I already been here? How the hell DO I backtrack to that point? Where haven't I been? It's kind of, suppose the author playtested his map, did he seriously not encounter the same problems I did?

Enter funny idea.

Those levels were designed from the overhead perspective, bird's eye view, they look simple from that perspective, the author, having created the levels, knew perfectly well how their overall structure was supposed to look like from above, which helped him to navigate.

That, in itself, is nothing unusual. I suspect that all the Build editors at the time (and maybe nowadays) were of sector/overhead variety, not the WYSIWYG variety (with the engine being 2.5D and all, too).

Then I remember how Romero described his process of creating maps for Doom. Like, he makes a room, he immediately loads it in the game and playtests it, trying to determine how it flows with the previous one, how it can be finetuned, how it could be made more interesting, what next room could be spun from it. Then back to the editor, then back to the game, back and forth, back and forth, constant iterations based on a feedbck frm playtesting (cont)

[Anonymous No.4723494]

>>4723481
(cont)
That didn't seem to be the case with Travis' maps at all, as far as I could tell based on my experience of playing it. It's almost as if the difference between author's bird's-eye-view perspective and player's first-person-view perspective was being magnified, emphasized, made very apparent for whatever reason, not attempted to be concealed. As if the whole point was the author refusing to put himself in player's shoes. Or that he liked creating levels way more than playing them.

Then again, even if easy to get lost in, his maps were more or less fairly balanced resource-wise and more or less fair combat-wise, maybe even on the easier side, which did show some attention on side of the author in regards to player's needs. The monotonous and somewhat impenetrable quality of his layouts and environmental design, however, seemed to be quite intentional as well, a repeating pattern, a running theme in his maps. Gigantic, somewhat megastructural, well, structures too.

That led me to the idea that the main theme or one of the main themes in his maps is CONDESCENSION in the context of mapper-player's relationship.

That's all I can currently say in regards to his maps.

[Anonymous No.4723514]

>>4723494
In other words, some of the resources handed to the player seem to be framed as hand-outs. I suspect some o the monster ambushes were thinned out somewhat as well. In general, I think, initially, in beta state, his levels were much harder than in the final states, and that pretty much the only things he changed based upon playtesting were resource count (more numerous) and enemy count (less numerous).

[Anonymous No.4723515]

>>4723481
>>4723494
there's only been 1 Build editor and it's been WYSIWYG from the word go.

[Anonymous No.4723521]

>>4723514
Environment however stayed more or less the same overhead sketch it originated as.

[Anonymous No.4723527]

>>4723515
Interesting. So you do stuff from the first person perspective?

Then I don't really know how to explain, well, peculiarities of Travis' mapping. Overhead view seemed to more or less fit.

[Anonymous No.4723594]

>>4723494
And you haven't played Smithsonian Terror, the 4th level of the DC episode yet. Please, give us a detailed review of that map, I'm interested.

[Anonymous No.4723664]

>>4723527
There's no explanation, he probably just built in the way he was most comfortable with. Maybe he did sketch his maps out on paper before he did it, most of them are (with the exception of Boba Fett as already pointed out) relatively flat on the Z-axis and are pretty big.

I can sympathise because building SoS stuff was a fucking nightmare and it still is nowadays, just a tiny bit less frustrating.

About Pascal observations btw, it might be worth noting that he always deliberately hid his maps off of the build grid. Nowadays it's trivial to get it back then but back then it was a clear attempt to stop people looking at the map in mapster. He stopped mapping because a guy called Taivo released a map called Dog City which was allegedly too similar to the roch maps. It was pretty fucking petty to be honest.

[Anonymous No.4723743]

>>4723664
He was also shitting on Alejandro Glavic about a map named EDF Secret Base, which had some shallow similarities with one Pinxten map.

[Anonymous No.4723783]

>>4723594
Oh no, not today, this has "Moonbase Beta One" and a bit of "Anselm" written all over it. Nonononono.

I rather liked the second and third DC maps though. Fast paced, well balanced and more or less to the point. Well, the second one primarily, the third somewhat less so. They were no Hoth, but they were pretty good maps regardless.

[Anonymous No.4723819]

>>4723783
The second map is basically ends monster fighting in the middle of the map, and you have to spend the rest with empty keycard hunting, and a terrible button puzzle have to be completed twice. One of the worst levels in DC.

[Anonymous No.4723829]

>>4723819
Dunno, I don't think it needs to be completed twice, if you jump into the water first?
Also, you just shotgun buttons two and three, then run to the door 1, while shotgunning the corresponding button on the run (which is the tricky part, might wanna save right after shotgunning button number 3), that does it.

[Anonymous No.4725224]

>>4723829
Those kind of puzzles always destroy levdl dynamics. That was one reason DNF failed too.

[NESfag No.4725258]

>>4723819
>>4723829
Yeah it doesn't need to be completed twice. The player should look around before understanding what to do. The blue lock is visible the same way the buttons are, and if you look around or explore a little you'll see the blue key.

Then once you're inside the room locked by the key; if you go down the big vat with Octobrains, you'll find a switch which open a sidepath so you don't have to do the switch puzzle again.

[Anonymous No.4725370]

About Levelord. Pistolstarted and finished Abyss, finished SEWER (didn't finish it the first time around, let's say, I got discouraged).

Okay, I think I more or less got the trick behind his maps. "Oh, what a pity, that didn't go all that well, my-my. You should've probably heeded the clue I had provided to you. Oh, you didn't notice it back then? Well, I guess you should've payed a somewhat closer attention." In other words, his maps are exercises in subtlety. In other words the pattern seems to be this. You progress into the level, you stumble right into a fight stacked JUST SO, being caught in it leads to consequences so catastrophic you are basically forced to reload a save. At which point, knowing what expects you further along the way, you just happen to notice a SUBTLE hint, that just happens to provide the means to handle the fight JUST SO that to tackle it without a scratch. Rinse and repeat. Or more like ultimately you are starting to progress a level at rate of, figuratively speaking, a couple of millimeters per minute, while paying REALLY CLOSE ATTENTION to the environment around you. SEWER is basically an exercise at trying to divine from environmental clues, just where to go next, so that, well, to have enough resources to tackle that "where to go next". I mean, there is some mighty telepathy-requiring bullshit there, octobrain pit, for example (and yes, I do get that you are sort of expected to blindly spam pipeboms there). What doesn't help is that Levelord also likes to mislead the player, to bait. Or, there is a wide invitingly looking path? Well, you are supposed to turn around and to start the level progression from the garage door behind your back. You follow the street instead, enjoy getting slaughtered from all sides. Oh, and there like three manholes. Good luck tackling the sewers without getting all the resourses you could from the upper part of the level. Also, the primary path to the sewers requiring as much as TWO keycards(cont)

[Anonymous No.4725394]

>>4725370
(cont)in conjunction with the manhole path requiring as much as ZERO keycards could also be a KIND OF A GIVAWAY, DON'T YOU THINK, PLAYER? Oh, and you want to jump for that delicious chaingun ammo you are starved for, right? Well, be sure to move like a couple of millimeters to the side in order to avoid hitting the lamp exactly midjump with your head. Oh, you hit it and fell into the sludge? My-my, better pay more attention next time, I mean, come on, there was the lamp RIGHT THERE. You are expected to dance on a dime, to use the windows with the lower lip high enough for the pigcop on the other side no to be able to shoot overit, but low enough for you to be able to shoot pigcop. You see, the CLUES in Levelord's levels are rather IMPLICIT, while the BAITS in Levelord's levels are rather EXPLICIT. So, if it isn't IMPLICIT ENOUGH, it could be a bait as well. Good thing I am a telepath and, through the usage of my awesome telepathic powers, instantly know, just what the author happens to consider "IMPLICIT ENOUGH". Actually, no, I am not.

Also, all the IN YOUR FACE explosions in that context basically mean "Yes, I am PERFECTLY CAPABLE of just saying things outright, I CHOOSE not to, because I like it way more".

Also, lots of pickups lovingly placed JUST SO, in oh so calculated and thoughtful manner. Also, very flimsy difficulty progression, the maps just kind of start and then just kind of end, and the difficulty is always more or less constant, and even if it increases somewhat closer to the end of the level, it's made so reluctantly, as if just because the difficulty is SUPPOSED to somewhat increase towards the end of the level.

Also, you DO know Abyss' Battlelord is sort of supposed to be killed from a place completely unreacheable for its bullets, right? That platform with three concealed niches? That's totally Levelord's style.

Also2, Abyss: found - 1 secret, missed - 5. Now, I fucking WONDER, just HOW did that ever happen.

[Anonymous No.4725397]

>>4725370
>>4725394
tl;dr: carpicious bullshitter.

[NESfag No.4725415]

One good example of Levelord's "explicit=bait" is this particular part in The Abyss.

You know how, when you reach this point, you naturally just keep going forward, because it's the continuation of the path and it's lit and big... But to make real progress you have to stop there, look behind you and notice there is a parallel path to the entrance path, right there in the dark, and decide to take the less appealing path first.

It's like he really wants the player to go wander through the entire (big) place forth and back; and the events that unfold like the earthquake are better if you've seen the area up close too; but at the same time for replay value you can directly go there and don't even have to wander through a sizeable portion of the map which is the continuation of the part hinted at to begin with.

[Anonymous No.4725510]

>>4725397
Fuck you, this guy is the reason why I watch these threads. Him and NESfag give some interesting points about mapping, the rest make zero input.

[Anonymous No.4725549]

>>4725510
Sorry, I wasn't clear enough, I am the guy you are probably refering to, and I was just trying to sum up previous two posts. Actually, I shouldn't have tried to characterize Levelord that way, that was kind of ungraceful on my part or something. It's just that I was kind of fed up with his style of mapping by that point.

Also there serms, at the very least, to be a third person providing just as active input as me and NESfag do.

[Anonymous No.4725636]

>>4725370
Sewer and Abyss are my favourite Levelord maps. They are much more complex and open than the other levels by him.

You shouldn't forget Sewer is not really finished. It has 5 skill settings (instead of the 3 used in the final game), and the monster count is also bigger and more limited to just 5 enemy types. Probably at this stage Octabrains and Pigcops were much weaker than in the final release. Also some sounds are missing and other nitpicky bugs present like the compactor windows you can shoot through or the floating hydrant.

[Anonymous No.4726470]

>>4725394
>Also, you DO know Abyss' Battlelord is sort of supposed to be killed from a place completely unreacheable for its bullets, right? That platform with three concealed niches?
It can easily access that area. You confuse it with the Overlord, which can be beaten from the waterpool area safely.

[Anonymous No.4726479]

>>4723263

I'd say the average age of a Duke fan is a bit higher than the average Doom fan. Doom seems to have become a magnet for every misfit teenage boy desperate for a sense of belonging while the Duke community is pretty much untouched by those types.

[Anonymous No.4726798]

>>4726479
Agreed entirely. It's especially evident when Doom kiddies shit on Duke, Blood, etc. for being "shitty Doom clones that are worse in every way and didn't innovate at all" in an unironic fashion and obviously haven't even played them.

People who actually played Doom, Duke, other 90's FPS games, etc. prior to Brutal Doom existing and making it popular with that teenager audience that watches Markiplier or some shit can appreciate each of them for their qualities and likes both Doom and Build engine FPSes.

[Anonymous No.4727136]

>>4726470
From one sideonly due to pathfinding idiocy. You bait it to the other side then quickly mount the platform through the first, then crouch. There, done.

[Anonymous No.4727150]

>>4726479
Duke is about leveldesign and atmosphere, Doom is about mindless fighting. It has some fine levels, but no Dark Side calibre stuff.

[Anonymous No.4727169]

>>4727150
Yeah, Doom mappers reached their respective heights in Quake.

Romero had Crypt of Decay and the full version (still featured in beta3 - or later assembled from release version of E2M6 and E2M10 (released by Romero since) by fans) of Dismal Oubliette.
Petersen had The Nameless City and Azure Agony (which was pretty much his way of saying he was sick and tired of making shootan levels to the bone).

[Anonymous No.4728179]

>>4727150
Not that there's anything wrong with mindless fighting. It's very easy to get going on Doom, just loading a map and rushing and shooting things, without putting much thought on it.

It's just not possible to do this on Duke3D, or any other Build game. To play those, it's necessary to really put ourselves on the mindset and pay attention on what we're doing. Attempting to go mindless shooting on Build games will get a player killed very quickly.

[Anonymous No.4728339]

>>4714616
damn, this is awesome but for some reason my mouse is really stuttery. thought it might be my polling rate so i turned that to the lowest but its still weird. can't complain too much though the work on this hack is pretty great so far.

[Anonymous No.4728347]

peeked in from the /doom/ thread, don't have much to contribute but i just wanted to say it's good to have some build love on this board

damn good games that tend to get glossed over nowadays, y'all keep being awesome and making good shit

[Anonymous No.4728460]

>>4728179

Build games also require a much larger sense of curiosity and willingness to poke around than Doom 1 and 2.

Doom's level design is simple enough that you can easily get by with little exploration, especially if you were raised on Call of Duty and modern MP FPS games. Duke 3D requires that willingness to go off the beaten path and really see what's going on to complete maps that FPS games haven't fostered in a long time.

[Anonymous No.4728892]

The problem with the Build engine games that they didn't have the impact on the FPS the evolution as it was expected upon release.

If you are looking at the evolution, then it's like this: Wolf3D > Doom > Quake > Unreal (for it's engine) > HL > Halo > COD4 then who cares. Duke and the other Build games are like dead end, that's why there were no true sequels to any of them. Ion Maiden looks fun, but it will be a retro shooter and more like an ambitious Duke Nukem TC, instead of an evolutionary improvement.

[Anonymous No.4728893]

>>4728892
>FPS the evolution
FPS evolution

[Anonymous No.4728903]

Is it just me or does Ion Maiden "feel better" than other Build games? If that makes sense.

[NESfag No.4729032]

>>4728892
That's because you, and the industry, mostly think in terms of engine breakthough.
Quake is remembered more because 3D engine and 3D models, but if you look at HL, it owes as much to Quake as it does to DN3D.

HL owes to Quake the engine, brought several steps further, but it's a direct continuation of DN3D in terms of "realism" and interaction, brought several steps further as well.

DN3D clearly had an impact in how FPS and also other games treated realism and interaction, making things more complicated, etc while the design mentality in Quake was the polar opposite: level design that makes no sense and have the world and interaction as simple as possible (there isn't even a "use" action)

[Anonymous No.4729218]

Negative opinion here: Half Life killed the FPS genre.

[Anonymous No.4729246]

>>4729218
I don't like HL so whatever. I'm just mad that games like Unreal 1 and Turok 2 came out first in the same year and neither got even a fracture of the recognition that HL did despite both being better games.

[Anonymous No.4729384]

>>4729032
I'm glad you think that because I've been thinking the same thing for a while now; HL is pretty much a continuation of a bunch of shit started in Duke3D (albeit polished to a mirror shine)

[Anonymous No.4729389]

>>4729218
No it didn't - 99% of FPS games were awful fucking shovel ware and Half-life revitalised the genre. Most other devs were just not as good as Valve, barring a few like Monolith (if we pretend that there was nothing in-between Blood and NOLF) so blaming them is like blaming Bungie for most devs following the Halo format or Epic for most devs ripped off Gear of War poorly.

>>4729246
because they weren't as good.

[Anonymous No.4729405]

>>4729246
Half Life was seen as innovative, during the 90s there were several games that played like Wolfenstein and Doom. The Build and Doom engines made a lot of popular games but they were very samey, and it caused stagnation.

[Anonymous No.4729430]

Ion Maiden looks to me a Duke3D/Half Life hybrid.

[Anonymous No.4731717]

I ain't got time to bleed.

[Anonymous No.4732976]

Lost the comment. Great.

Okay, retyping.

Played through the earliest 7 of Mikko Sandt's maps of those he published (all of them from 1998, got them through his website).

It must be said that overall I genuinely do like Mikko's style.

That having being said, however, it seems to me, that one of the main schticks of his is a sort of intentional mapping illiteracy, with pretty much the crucial maps' setpieces being downright "ungrammatical", "bad mapping", "what the fuck is this even supposed to mean" style. Kind of a combination of bad spelling and word salad, like, a deliberate distortion of "words", only, you know, expressed through textures, layouts and encounters, so, not "words", but rather mapping conventionalities and overall "improper" usage of Duke's graphical or sound resources.

This seems to be a sort of "I am NOT going to either say what you expect to hear from me, or to repeat after you, however much you would like me to, or insist me to", maybe even "I refuse to be taught by you". In other words, "intentionally bad mapping" seems to serve as a sort of "I am speaking my mind as is" tag, and it is precisely those "odd", "fucked up" bits, that are intimately connected to the most memorable parts of his maps gameplay-wise.

That having been said, his later maps are undeniably much "nicer" looking overall. However I suspect that he simply found the subtler ways to mess with the player and to spite "good mapping" traditions, that are not as readily apparent, as in his first maps.

This however has a very nasty side effect in that precisely that sort of bad mapping is usually used as a criterion in order to indicate the secrets, and, well, since that very bad mapping is used for a different purpose here, that sort of leaves the secrets without their own criterion, and sort of degrades them to the pure guess game they were, like, in Wolf3D, as opposed to Doom.

[Anonymous No.4733143]

About Blum. Again. Sue me.
Kind of a funny idea which I haven't tried to verify yet. Still.
You see, up above I kind of stated, that I regard as self-referential AL LEAST three of Blum's maps (Derelict, Dark Side and Freeway - with Mirage Barrage being the possible fourth AND, come to think of it, Hollywood Holocaust being the possible fifth). THAT is kind of A LOT. You see, through the years of playing and watching some obscure shit, I kind of naturally landed on the concept of "Magnum Opus", which is an artistic work during the creation of which the author kind of formulates for himself just what the fuck he is even doing in general, and which sort of separates the "amateurish" artistic works before (they are kind of the "anything goes" to some extent or other) and the "professional" artistic works after (they are kind of one-trick ponies with author just spamming his favourite schtick). And yes, that sort of Magnum Opus is always self-referential and its content in more or less allegorical form comments on what the author thinks the ultimate, in a nutshell, relation between that author and his hypothetical audience (whose place I happen to occupy) even is. Or, simply put, who the author thinks he is in relation to his audience.
Aaaaaanyhow. What I mean to say is that three self-referential, in different ways, maps, in quick succession no less, are kind of A LOT in my personal opinion.
Enter funny idea.
WHAT IF the the main Dark Side's schtick isn't all that much about being self-referential about being linear - and is much more about BEING SELF-REFERENTIAL ABOUT BEING SELF-REFERENTIAL (about being linear)? WHAT IF the main or one of the main themes in Blum's mappings is the notion of a reference ITSELF? Or maybe not even a reference, but rather maybe a CONNECTION as such?

[Anonymous No.4733504]

>>4733143
Golden Carnage is not self-referential? I mean it has the submarines of Death Row just better utilized.

[NESfag No.4734226]

>>4712597
>How many boobs did you find?

After looking at the maps in the editor I can say you got them all.

This being said I genuinely didn't know, or remember, the one in lev17... even though I did check all maps thoroughly in the past in the editor.

Also it's crazy how many DM maps Powerslave has. Some of them have some interesting layouts too.

>>4733504
A lot of things in AWO is self referential and especially Blum's maps. The end of Mirrage Barrage is like the hub area of Occupied Territory, but with the reactors from Lunar Reactor.

[Anonymous No.4734693]

>>4734226
High Times is also a self-referential map. It actually has ideas from Hollywood Holocaust (like the secret elevator), Going Postal and Lunatic Fringe. I think that map is unfairly overlooked.

[Anonymous No.4734828]

>>4729389
>because they weren't as good.
yes they were much more skill based

[NESfag No.4735116]

>>4734693
Yes but the secret elevator is a rather small theme (not a major theme/layout or even prop) and Blum did not make Lunatic Fringe, so it's more like trying to do tighter version of what Levelord had done.

[Anonymous No.4735325]

Felt like playing a bit of Blood yesterday, so I went ahead and completed Cryptic passage since I never played through the full episode.
I really liked it, most maps are really nice looking and fun to explore, if maybe a little generous with health and ammo, but still, really fun to play through.
I particularly liked Steamboat, but that's because I'm a sucker for train-like maps that take place on a limited space with multiple levels.
But then... there's Mountain pass.
What the fuck happened here? Was it like the result of some fan contest, make-a-map-in-an-hour and it gets included in the game kinda thing? It's so bad compared to the other ones, it looks bland as shit, it's super linear, there's a bunch of empty corridors that go on for way too long, it's full of platforming over death pits... Thank god at least it's not hard or too long to get through it. I'm no mapping expert, I couldn't tell you the difference between a good map and a great one, but compared to the other maps even I was wondering "What the hell is going on?" and I wanted to know if anyone else felt the same way about.
Still a great episode overall I think, the other maps more than make up for it.

[Anonymous No.4735487]

Overlooked Hotel is still the best Blood map ever made.

[Anonymous No.4736149]

Did Blood have some weird framerate cap? Or at least some weird camera position's refresh rate? If so, what was it exactly? 25fps? 30? 35? I turned "interpolation" in Blood GDX off - and, lo and behold, from buttery-smooth it went down to exactly the same kind of jank it was under DosBoX when I played it years ago (mind you, Shadow Warrior which I completed those years ago with the same DosBoX executable on the exact same machine immediately after Blood, was MUCH smoother than Blood), all the while showing like 200 to 300 on the FPS counter.

[Anonymous No.4737320]

>BloodGDX is innacutarte empirical recreaction

[Anonymous No.4737323]

>BloodGDX is innacurate empirical recreation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id6y40rylUY&t=1769s

[Anonymous No.4737335]

Thoughts on NAM and WW2 GI? I found their gunplay pretty good, but the difficulty borders on unfair, and on NAM's case, the level design is atrocious, jungle and more jungle all looking the same, full of traps and hidden enemies.

[Anonymous No.4737387]

>>4737335
They are both shit.

[Anonymous No.4737853]

What do you guys think, which is better? Ion Maiden preview campaign or Duke Nukem World Tour 5th episode?

[Anonymous No.4737864]

>>4737853
World Tour but that's a full expansion so I wouldn't compare them.

[NESfag No.4738935]

>>4737335
Both games have tons of cool stuff but they can be really unfair. It's really war. Play on easy and save often.

I enjoyed them but I'm a sucker for Build.

>>4737853
I'm very biaised and it's hard to compare the two because they're completely different things (add-on VS preview of a new game), but if you take the new art, new enemy and new weapon in WT, they're of abyssimal quality compared to the art, enemies and weapons in IM.

[Anonymous No.4739202]

Yeah, just compared the whole boss level or the Warmech to the pathetic joke of Hollywood Inferno. Like day and night.

Honestly, the only thing that is on par or maybe better in World Tour is Allen Blum’s Mirage Barrage and Golden Carnage maps. The music is like even, love the scores in both games.

[Anonymous No.4739220]

>>4737323
It will always be innacurate, no matter how much you work on syncing basic demos.

Without the source code, everything is just an approximation by eye done from the finished product.

[Anonymous No.4739226]

>>4713983
Nerd

[Anonymous No.4739310]

>>4739202
Replay Hollywood Inferno from pistolstart. Just sayin'.

Also, it seems to me to be more or less deliberately made in DNF style. Maybe that was what triggered you.

[Anonymous No.4739335]

>>4739310
I don’t care if the level can offer a challenging gunplay or not. It looks shit which can be made in a few hours. Just one linear path with invisible walls and a terrible boss.

Prima Arena was another embarassing level. Yea, it’s a secret level, but after 20 years, they could have added some effort into it.

[Anonymous No.4739361]

>>4739335
It's basically "Resource Management, The Level: Dancing on a Dime edition". By not pistolstarting it on CGS, you are missing its point entirely.

Also, the thing you could be missing about original DNF (well, the factually released version) was that it had a very distinctive mappibg style, extremely barebones, where you were pretty much always given only a BIT more space to move, supplies, etc., than was strictly necessary for accomplishing what the leveldesigners required you to do. It was extremely functional, necessity-driven, maybe could even be called minimalistic. You could probably teach students in game academies using that sort of leveldesign, it was so focused and transparent on what it wanted the player to do, while still requiring from him to figure it out.

Hollywood Inferno is just the same kind of necessity-driven design. Until a certain point, there is not a square inch that doesn't serve some purpose, not a single pickup, not a single fucking cactus. This level, as DNF levels were, is about accomplishing much with very little. What's it doing outside of DNF however is another question altogether. Just being a throwback, I suppose.

[Anonymous No.4739402]

>>4739361
Basically, what I suppose, is that DNF's ultimate identity emerged at pretty much the last moment, during the final 2009 revision, and that identity was "Just make this fucking thing to run on XBoX360". THAT became, I think, pretty much the singular thing the whole project became all about. Not about inane Broussard's fantasies, just about Making It Fit, on a derelict engine, on an aging platform, with a more or less stable framerate, and in, I imagine, less than stellar working conditions as well (even before "secretly illegally working from homes" phase just before Pitchford intervened). Maps started to get slashed to fit the polygon counts, textures got downgraded, environments thinned down. And the genius of whoever helmed the whole process was to make the layouts (that needed to be changed regardless due to overall map changes) actually reflect that very attitude. Sort of "I am sick and tired of this game, I have jack shit to work with, but still, even then, here is my best shot, take it or leave it".
At least, that's what I imagine.

[Anonymous No.4739406]

>>4739402
Also, from this standpoint, Hollywood Inferno could be interpreted as a tie-in between DN3D and DNF. Sort of a "midquel".

[Anonymous No.4739438]

>>4739406
>"Put yourself in my shoes"/"Empathize with me"
Could it be?..