Super Metroid's Flaws: A General Analysis

[Anonymous No.4605853]

Hi. This will be my try attempt at making a response to the exceedingly high praise I've seen Super Metroid get over the years. While I still think it's a pretty good game (particularly when compared to its later, modern brethren), I'll give my best to convey why I think it's not as great as it's made out to be without going too much into detail. This is not a "lol overrated" shitpost thread. Also, this is focused on game mechanics.

One of the key elements I dislike about this game are the upgrades. Hear me out:
I think they are badly designed in two main ways.
1. By not having an uniform power level (I'm particularly talking about health upgrades) the game is not as properly balanced in its combat department (and challenge) as it could have been.
2. A lot of the exploration leads to these unnecessary upgrades. If the game didn't have dead ends that lead to upgrades, its maze-like design could have been made better.
I'm aware they put those to that into the progress system addiction that a lot of people have, but they undermine the game's design. Imagine for a second being someone that doesn't care for upgrades, running around and stumbling into upgrades feels very pointless.

Also, the typical "Metroidvania" staples of "run around so you can find the next upgrade that works as a key so you can run around in a new area, rinse and repeat" are a bit questionable to me. I'd find these more fun if they focused more on actually being challenging to navigate (think: Knightmare 2 / La-Mulana) rather than in mostly finding glorified keys.

To be continued.

[Anonymous No.4605856]

OP again
Continued from >>4605853

The controls leave a bit to be desired. Pressing select to scroll over your weaponry, for instance. If you compare the 8-way shooting controls to Gunstar Super Heroes, they seem limited. Air mobility is slow and clunky, making the game feel less like it's designed to dodge enemy hits and more just tank them while shooting back (I could be slightly wrong about this last statement). Overall, while they are good, they feel a bit unpolished (and in fact, later 2D Metroid games improved some of these issues, while not being as good at other stuff this game does).
Controls work mostly fine for what the game is, but my point is that if the controls were improved, its design could also be improved as a result.

I'm also not fond of the "cutscene combats" (the heavily scripted ones) right at the very start and the very end, but this is mostly nitpicking since it's a small portion of the game. The game takes a bit too long to really get started for my tastes, but I've seen FAR worse. Speaking about nitpicks, while I know this game's focus is not the combat, I'd say it's not very good. Enemy patterns are a bit too simple and boring, even the bosses. The game is of course a bit too easy to survive, even when foregoing upgrades. Fortunately, its exploration challenge, aside from the upgrade stuff I mentioned earlier is what keeps the game decently engaging throughout.

Hope this seemed reasonable enough. Let me know what you guys think; I'm not the biggest expert (as in, not a speedrunner) and it's been a few years since I've replayed this, so feel free to disagree in any area you think I may be wrong. Let's see if you can convince me to like this game more.

[Anonymous No.4605927]

1) yes, the game DOES feel like a redundant mission of locating power-ups, to fight bosses (who's patterns you must learn in order to defeat)

I remember playing this game originally at Wal Mart SNES station, thinking it was the coolest shit EVER.

I guess I'm just jaded, but it's still one of the SNES top games

[Anonymous No.4605935]

>>4605927
Are you saying you agree but still think it's a top game due to nostalgia? Sorry in advance if I misunderstood.

[Anonymous No.4605969]

>>4605853
>>4605856
I only played it very recently for the first time, I do think it's easily amongst the best games I've played.

>1. By not having an uniform power level (I'm particularly talking about health upgrades) the game is not as properly balanced in its combat department (and challenge) as it could have been.
It's something you're gonna have to make a tradeoff for when making a game that allows for mostly non-linear exploration as well as having a large power gap between start and fully decked, the game is balanced against people missing a lot of stuff.
>2. A lot of the exploration leads to these unnecessary upgrades. If the game didn't have dead ends that lead to upgrades, its maze-like design could have been made better.
Not having dead ends makes it harder on the player not knowing if he's progressing or not, granted SM has the minimap which would alleviate that, pickups are there in dead ends to keep the player from being frustrated.
>I'd find these more fun if they focused more on actually being challenging to navigate (think: Knightmare 2 / La-Mulana) rather than in mostly finding glorified keys.
SM doesn't fall into that trap completely simply by virtue of not requiring all the upgrades to finish, even on a first play-through provided you figure out walljumps which isn't too hard.
>The controls leave a bit to be desired
Control scheme wise you can tweak the controls, and honestly you really should.
Physics-wise it has a few annoying quirks, I prefer Project Base since it's easier to move well and go fast which feels good.
>I'm also not fond of the "cutscene combats" (the heavily scripted ones) right at the very start and the very end
I actually find them quite nice, not so much the Ceres one but the MB one feels just right for a first playthrough where you might not be very good, gets mildly annoying on repeat playthroughs though.

[Anonymous No.4605986]

>>4605969
>the game is balanced against people missing a lot of stuff.
That's the issue. If the game didn't have upgrades, particularly health ones, combat would remain challenging and balanced.
>Not having dead ends makes it harder on the player not knowing if he's progressing or not, granted SM has the minimap which would alleviate that, pickups are there in dead ends to keep the player from being frustrated.
Decent point. I still it could be better designed without needing to put upgrades in dead ends. Have some actual dead ends with no rewards.
>SM doesn't fall into that trap completely simply by virtue of not requiring all the upgrades to finish, even on a first play-through provided you figure out walljumps which isn't too hard.
This is one of the reasons I consider it a much better game than other ones in this style. However, it's still an issue, even if a lesser one.
>Control scheme wise you can tweak the controls, and honestly you really should.
I do, but the controls are never as smooth as I'd want. Have you tried Gunstar Super Heroes? That game has perfect 8-way shooting controls. You have two buttons that can shoot: B and R. If you shoot with B, it's like in Contra. If you shoot with R, you can't move while shooting (this helps with aiming). If you press both, you can strafe (as in, shoot forward and being able to move backwards quickly).
>for a first playthrough where you might not be very good, gets mildly annoying on repeat playthroughs though.
Exactly.

[Anonymous No.4606049]

>>4605986
>That's the issue. If the game didn't have upgrades, particularly health ones, combat would remain challenging and balanced.
That's kinda the issue with games that have heavy character progression, especially if they also have heavy player progression like SM since that also cuts the "hobo phase", and you can't fix the problem without cutting hte progression a character progression a lot.
I mean you could reduce it to 2 missiles per expansion and 1 for super/power bombs as well as cutting the E-tank in half and I would still find the game more than manageable for a first time playthrough, not necessarily better since you would be doing a ton of trips to recharge stations/farm points and that could easily get very frustrating in an exploration heavy game, would be almost perfect for an unlockable difficulty though.
Pretty much why the game incentivize the player to go fast by giving a clear time, if you can(t make the main game difficult just give the player a way to make it hard for themselves, not ideal though
>Have you tried Gunstar Super Heroes?
Never played but I can see how the scheme would work, I also personally thought about how mouse aim would impact the game after playing a more recent metroidvania that has that and honestly you'd have to seriously rethink everything about how enemies work and I'm not sure you could do spawns that are engaging enough difficulty wise but also don't get frustrating on repeat visit as well as working well form every entry points without resorting to some other trickery (thinking maybe rarefying spawns with repeat visits but that also might cause issues with farming),
Even something like Metal Slug would be significantly easier with either of those schemes and that's not exactly badly designed or easy.

[Anonymous No.4606063]

I played this game for the first time a few months ago. I'd just came off beating Axiom Verge, Ori and the Blind Forrest, and Cave Story.

I thought Super Metroid was over rated. But I also thought all of those previous games either sucked or were overrated, except Axiom Verge which might be slightly under rated.

I get that Super Metroid is old and was a pioneer or whatever the fuck. But I thought the physics were too floaty, and got bored halfway through it. Maybe I just don't like metroidvanias outside of one random one.

[Anonymous No.4606091]

One of the objective faults of the game is maridia. It's just all around awful

>just got th gravity suit, does pretty much fuck all in the new area despite being underwater
>those fucking sand waterfalls
>bug cunts shooting gooballs at you from out of range
>why the fuck are these doors sealed off
>boss is neat the first few times, then it's just a gimmick fight of grappling the electricity things, otherwise a shitty, unfinished hit and run fight
>music is drab and uninteresting

[Anonymous No.4606370]

>>4606063
Cave Story is not a metroidvania

people need to stop spouting this meme. None of the levels are connected to each other and progress is often linear

[Anonymous No.4606384]

the only flaw is that the game needs a hard mode

But that's okay, because you can try a personal minimum % playthrough. Ridley with 4 energy tanks is fucking hard, it probably took me 50 tries.

[Anonymous No.4606391]

>>4606091
Did you just bad-mouth the Maridia music?

[Anonymous No.4606405]

>>4606370
It's also a much better game

[Anonymous No.4606410]

Needs less missile tanks, 20 would have been plenty enough and made more sense

[Anonymous No.4606416]

I never found any metroid terribly interesting, not even prime. I suppose without SM there would never have been Salt and Sanctuary

[Anonymous No.4606637]

How can you complain about health and praise La Mulana at the same time? That game is an absolute joke thanks to the massive amounts of health it gives you for free. At least in SM you have to look for it, and it doesn't amount to much when later enemies take 2+ bars off per hit.

[Anonymous No.4606650]

Every metroid style game is fundamentally flawed. The majority of the environments are meant to be traversed more than once, in multiple directions. You can't have much compelling platforming or enemy/obstacle placement with such a huge crutch.

[Anon No.4606653]

>>4606416
Prime sucks mega dick
Could never get into it

[Anonymous No.4606662]

>>4606650
>You can't have much compelling platforming or enemy/obstacle placement with such a huge crutch.
Mutating environment, enemy and enemy placement upgrades, clock-based events. Easy.

[Anonymous No.4606991]

>>4606049
I see we agree with the fact that progression is excessive here.
Yeah, with improved controls the game would have to feature even better enemy design for it to be engaging. But that's the point, I'm talking about parts which could be improved.
I've never been a big fan of Metal Slug and I love me some run and guns and arcade games.
>>4606637
I'm not praising La-Mulana in general, only a particular aspect of it (the fact that it relies less on upgrades as keys to unlock new areas and more on being actually hard to figure out where to go). I'm not a big fan of the game, other aspects about it as the one you're pointing out aren't good.
>>4606650
Try Mega Man Zero 1 or ZX, they try to have a bit of that Metroidvania appeal (particularly ZX) with more linear level design and less reliance on upgrades as keys to unlock new areas.
Like a pseudo-Metroidvania where each area is more like a linear platformer.
>>4606662
Nice point. Changing enemy placement depending on where you enter the room is a nice idea.

[Anonymous No.4607759]

>>4606391

literally the same as ghost ship

[Anonymous No.4607786]

Why are you attempting to critically analyze a game release TWENTY FOUR years ago with modern technical and design sensibilities, comparing it to shit released not even 3 years ago like Axiom Verge?

Are you retarded?

The fact that you used the term "metroidvania" unironically to describe something in super metroid leads me to believe you're on the fucking spectrum or something.

[Anonymous No.4607904]

OP here. If you were replying to another anon (I think you do, but just in case...), sorry.
>>4607786
>with modern technical and design sensibilities
No, I'm in fact saying it's better than most later games that imitated it.
Most if not all my complaints are valid for when the game was made, anon.
Axiom Verge was mentioned by another anon.
Also, notice I used the term Metroidvania (with quotes) to talk about the tropes that would later be copied, but started with these early games.

[Anonymous No.4607915]

There are none.

[Anonymous No.4607946]

>>4606091
This post is funny because I was about halfway through Maridia when it really hit me that I was playing one of the best video games ever made.

I had played the game some with my family when it first came out, but I was little and honestly thought the game was scary, and got lost a lot. When AM2R came out in 2016 I played it and really enjoyed it, and decided to give Super another go as an adult.

That was the point that I really appreciated the fuck out of Super Metroid and got all of the praise I'd heard for the game over the years, it just finally clicked.

[Anonymous No.4607957]

>>4607915
OK, anon. OP here: why do you think the points I made aren't flaws? Are they not big enough flaws to you? Explain, I'd appreciate it.
>>4607946
Same, Maridia is probably the high point of the game. It's more like an actual labyrinth, less reliant on upgrades to get through (except the gravity suit I guess)

[Anonymous No.4608012]

>>4607904
>tropes
If we didn't already know you were retarded before, we certainly do now.

[Anonymous No.4608046]

>>4608012
Ad hominems, huh? I initially used the word "staple"
Tropes are "a common or overused theme or device". How is it retarded to say that later games that copied Super Metroid's formula of "getting upgrades to unlock new areas" are following a trope?
Trope:
"a common or overused theme or device"

[Anonymous No.4608578]

>>4606650
> You can't have much compelling platforming or enemy/obstacle placement with [environments are meant to be traversed more than once]
Making that compelling should be the entire draw of this genre, but most games don't even realize it's something they should be attempting. Traversing the same area repeatedly means you have a better context for your increasing abilities than in the typical "game gets harder as you get stronger and it's a wash" design, and you can treat the environment itself as a character.

The critical path should only require you to backtrack if you've received an item that changes how you traverse rooms, or if a plot trigger has actually changed the environment. You can see hints of this in Metroid games; the backtrack after the ice beam in Super Metroid is really good, and Metroid Fusion does some pretty good work with changing environments, letting you watch as the station falls apart. But it's a shame that most games in this genre fail to do this and the best games only do it occasionally.

[Anonymous No.4609358]

>>4608578
Good point, but I disagree. I think backtracking shouldn't be due to unlocking new abilities or getting upgrades, but rather the game being actually hard to know where to go or what to do.
Just imagine a game like Super Metroid designed with having most of your arsenal from the start (except the most broken stuff like Space Jump / Screw Attack, you know) and you don't find any upgrades. And then, have the game designed around that: now enemies can be properly balanced around a stable power level, and the exploration aspect becomes a pure maze-like experience with logical puzzles.
However, they go the upgrade route since that gets people addicted and it's also easier for lesser skilled players (higher skilled players sequence break in Super Metroid, thus turning it into a game more similar to what I consider a superior experience).
In conclusion, to me good backtracking comes out of getting lost and not knowing what to do. Bad backtracking comes when it's forced due to having to find "keys" to unlock new areas.

[Knuckles No.4609393]

>Super Metroid's Flaws
It's not Sonic 2 & Knuckles.

[Anonymous No.4609424]

>>4605853
the two points you just mentioned why I think its one of the best games of all time. Your streamline game design approach makes me shiver. Backass mainstream modern game design my ass. There is nothing more perfect as failing at a game finding some secrets or going a extra route to get an additional item making the part where I died easier. ANd beeing able to skip that secret item to finish the game faster on a later replay because of the skill I gained.

[Anonymous No.4609426]

>>4609393
Hello there, Sonic fantard. I like Sega, but they ended up BLOWING IT with both the 32X and the western handling of the Saturn.

[Knuckles No.4610206]

>>4609426
Too bad Sonic 2 & Knuckles is a Genesis game.

[Anonymous No.4610292]

>>4609424
OP here. What I'm asking from games like Super Metroid is not for them to be more streamlined. In fact, their structure is much more streamlined than what I want.

My idea for a better Metroid style game is one where enemies are constantly a threat (no upgrades) and to make exploration actually challenging (by not depending on finding keys, but to have the player get lost, having to figure out logical puzzles to advance).
My approach is more "hardcore" if anything.

[Anonymous No.4610453]

>>4605853
>>4605856

Should I read all this autism regarding a 24 year old game?

[Anonymous No.4610495]

>>4610453
If you don't care, then ignore it. Do you prefer rich discussion or never ending shallow shitposting, though?

[Anonymous No.4610509]

>>4610453
I don't know, read it and tell me.

[Anonymous No.4610514]

>>4610495
shitposting

[Anonymous No.4610517]

>>4610514
Global Rule 9
The quality of posts is extremely important to this community. Contributors are encouraged to provide high-quality images and informative comments.

[Anonymous No.4610532]

>progress system

[Anonymous No.4610539]

>>4610532
What about that?
I'm pointing out how the game somewhat sacrifices its combat balance and exploration design so that it can feature elements that progress your character which get people addicted. I consider this a flaw. Do you disagree? Tell me why, I'm here to listen.

[Anonymous No.4611024]

>>4610292
this is nearly impossible to do. SOme games do enemy scaling which is the worst thing in gaming history. And metroid is simulating a planet. No downtime in such a huge world would be too stressful if you ask me. DOes only work for games in short bursts like superprobotector or axelay.

[Anonymous No.4611036]

You are playing the game sugesting you know where all the health upgrades are. Which you wouldn't on a first play through.

Unnecessary upgrades? I don't know, maybe, but I can't ever say "oh crap more missiles" because. Maybe I felt like oh another super bomb or something because I never used those enough.

My only complaint is that the game has a drab colour scheme. Its dark and murky nearly everywhere. I'm not begging for "ICE WORLD" or anything, but the later games spiced it up a bit more other than just regurgitating Alien and Aliens.

[Anonymous No.4611051]

>>4610539
>I'm here to listen
No you're not. You're here to wage your autistic jihad against progress systems boogie man, completely ignore any differing opinion, repeat yourself ad nauseum and then start over in a new thread as if nothing ever happened. You are the patron saint of autism, I woud almost feel sorry for you if you weren't so fucking annoying.

[Anonymous No.4611762]

>>4611024
How is it impossible? Just don't have any upgrades. There, you can now design enemies based around a Samus with a constant power level. It's very simple, actually.
>>4611036
Even just a few upgrades begin to break the game. I mean, every time you pick a health upgrade your initial HP is multiplied by the number of upgrades you've gathered (so, x2, x3, x4...) it's a very big unbalance.
They are unnecessary in this way: they are not an element needed to make the game work. And they unbalance it, so it would be better without them.
I won't get into aesthetic tastes.
>>4611051
Nice "argument", but no. Look here >>4605986
>Decent point. I still it could be better designed without needing to put upgrades in dead ends. Have some actual dead ends with no rewards.
This guy made a nice point on how these upgrades could be good for the game, and I conceded it was a good point, even if I disagreed. Stay triggered. If you can't defend your preferred game design styles and the only thing you can do is attack with ad hominems, what does that say about you?

[Anonymous No.4611839]

>>4609358
That's a horrible idea. Labyrinthine level design is just a tedious waste of time without upgrades to obtain because any path that doesn't lead to a major objective just leads to a dead end. Would you want to play a game where you have no clue where to go and run into dead ends all the time with no reward for going off the beaten path? I sure as fuck wouldn't. If you remove upgrades, the only way to make a game compelling is to either make it linear or add some dumb collectibles like stars or jiggies.

[Anonymous No.4611863]

>>4610292
So... you're saying that a game is bad because it's in a different genre. That's not how it works.
And just use a fucking tripcode instead of saying OP HERE OP HERE over and over. We're not fucking stupid. That's what they were made for https://www.4chan.org/faq#trip

[Anonymous No.4611865]

>>4611762
that would make metroid an arcade game. The problem is that there are more arcade games than metroids. Arcades are easier to make than metroids. You ask metroid to be like super probotector/super ghost n ghouls/Metal Slug... again, those games are fun in short bursts but get boring quickly.
Its like turning zelda into gauntlet. The problem is, if you streamline the gameplay, you lose alot of atmosphere. And atmosphere is the most important part of metroid. Arcade games can have some atmosphere, but never as close as a slow placed game, with enemies which are lifeforms rather than video game enemies.

I don't undertand your point. Its like asking why a tractor isn't a ferrari. Both are good at their job, but their jobs are completely different.

[Anonymous No.4611868]

Super Metroid is definitely one of the top 5 most overrated games on /vr/. It's a good action platformer, but come on.

[Anonymous No.4611871]

>>4611865
>the speed of a game determines its atmosphere

[Anonymous No.4611910]

>>4611839
>That's a horrible idea. Labyrinthine level design is just a tedious waste of time without upgrades to obtain because any path that doesn't lead to a major objective just leads to a dead end.
Think of it this way: when you run into an optional upgrade, that's also a dead end mechanically. It's the same, but worse, since said upgrades unbalance the game's combat.
And yes, I'd prefer a game that worked like that, it's my main point. Those rewards are just a cheap way to get people addicted that in actuality make the game worse. You could make less dead ends by removing upgrades, and make exploration a challenge of logical puzzles.
I know you wouldn't, plenty of people play for the progress systems. I don't think they make these games better, personally, as I've explained.
>>4611863
>SO YOU'RE SAYING
Please, don't start with this crap. You could make the same style of game as Super Metroid, just without relying on keys to unlock areas, but rather your brain to solve logical puzzles. In fact, Super Metroid already halfway works this way: when you're sequence breaking, you're essentially turning the game more into what I envision. You rely on your skills to explore and not some unlockable.
>>4611865
>that would make metroid an arcade game.
You don't play arcade games lol You can easily make a game like this that lasts for hours and has save points (which is not an arcade game, they need short sittings and stuff like time limits to work). Again, it would be the same game, just without upgrades. Doesn't change the genre.
>The problem is that there are more arcade games than metroids.
Nowadays, absolutely not. "Metroidvania" is probably the biggest retro meme. But they don't even touch Super Metroid since they focus even more on forced upgrades.

[Anonymous No.4611925]

>>4611871
yeah, a story with atmosphere needs alot of room to breath. You haven't got that exprience yet?

>>4611910
>Nowadays, absolutely not. "Metroidvania" is probably the biggest retro meme. But they don't even touch Super Metroid since they focus even more on forced upgrades.
Sorry you misunderstood. I was talking about good games. I dont think there are more good metroidvanias than good arcade games.
Also I feel like we are talking past each other. Just tell me an example game you have in mind that metroid should be. MEgaManX? No because that game is upgrade driven. Castlevania 4? While I think castle vania4 is awesome, its nowhere near as good as super metroid.

[Anonymous No.4611929]

>every environment looks the same, just drab caves constantly
>story is barebones, characterization is nonexistent
>gameplay is shallow and provides no challenge or real enjoyment
>tons of backtracking
>forgettable soundtrack
>the platforming is so simple and inconsequential that it could not exist and the game would be no worse for it
>enemy AI is stupid simple, nothing ever poses a challenge, not even the bosses
>no real point to the sub-weapons besides the mandatory "you need X to progress" roadblock


This game is purely driven by intense nostalgia of people who played it early in life or are just perpetuating meme hype.

[Anonymous No.4611956]

>>4611925
>I dont think there are more good metroidvanias than good arcade games.
This is definitely true.
>Just tell me an example game you have in mind that metroid should be.
The same game as Metroid, but instead of finding upgrades that improve your character and unlock new areas, you're just exploring and figuring out where to go and how through logical puzzles, with a better and more balanced combat.

[Anonymous No.4611967]

>>4611929
forgettable soundtrack?

go buy some new ears

[Anonymous No.4611968]

>>4611929
>story is barebones, characterization is nonexistent
>tons of backtracking
I bet you adore Metroid Fusion then, with its babby's first Metroid style linear structure and absolutely pointless and uninteresting cutscenes interrupting the gameplay almost every goddamn second?

[Anonymous No.4611981]

>>4611967
>>4611968
OP here. This is why I avoided bringing up aesthetics and stuff, it's way too subjective and leads to pointless discussions.

[Anonymous No.4611982]

>>4611967
The soundtrack is ass. Boring SNES instrumentation (pretty much all the same sound samples as LttP) and every song has the same structure of a three note bass riff, a couple piano chords that fade in and out in a "spooky" way and maybe some poorly done fake-choir going
>HO HO
>HA HA

For example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVRi3JNuBCo&list=PL0BCE0BA953AC33E4&index=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vYsVk23oxA&index=3&list=PL0BCE0BA953AC33E4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKTBf5_T6LI&index=5&list=PL0BCE0BA953AC33E4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai2dhNW0-sc&list=PL0BCE0BA953AC33E4&index=7
All these tunes start out the same way and have the same structure. The only difference is the key and maybe a few altered chords. It's shit.

[Anonymous No.4612032]

>>4611982
different guy here. The simplicity is a reflection of the planet. Simple lifeforms. The music is pretty fantastic. Music shouldnt be complicated and overloaded to be good.

When necessary there are melodic themes like lower maridia:
https://youtu.be/K96venBS7P8

[Anonymous No.4612037]

Sad to see this devolved into /mu/ discussion

[Anonymous No.4612043]

>>4611982
I think you're missing the point there. Or just baiting. Super Metroid's soundtrack isn't supposed to be wildly varying - it's about variations built around one central theme. When you traverse the game's world, very few music changes are sudden and jarring, but transition from one to the next (or previous) to reflect the mood and nature of each area you're in.

[Anonymous No.4612048]

>>4612037
Yep, definitely seems to be some kind of leakage going on...

[Anonymous No.4612050]

>>4612032
>The simplicity is a reflection of the planet. Simple lifeforms.
I actually laughed. What a ridiculous statement. Look, I have nothing against things being simple, but I do have something against things not being done well.

>themes like lower maridia
It's the same as all the other tracks, but the composer switched out bass samples for a chime sample. There is just no imagination to this soundtrack. It's musically boring and uninspired. Every song the composer starts out with bass by itself (or a chime in this case) and then followed by some little short keyboard melody and then just repeats that for three minutes without any changes whatsoever.

[Anonymous No.4612059]

>>4612043
>isn't supposed to be wildly varying
It doesn't have to be wildly varying.
>it's about variations built around one central theme.
There are no variations. It's the same "song" over and over.
>When you traverse the game's world, very few music changes are sudden and jarring, but transition from one to the next (or previous) to reflect the mood and nature of each area you're in.
Reflect the mood? They all sound the same. The soundtrack is the musical equivalent to the game's environments: unvarying, drab, generic caves.

[Anonymous No.4612071]

>>4612048
There's a reason "aestheticsfags" has been mentioned here lately. Here you can see what happens when they take over a thread.
>>4612050
>>4612059
Dudes, calm down already. The soundtrack is just a plus and doesn't really matter when judging the game's quality. You may like it or not, but don't get so worked up.

[Anonymous No.4612078]

>>4612071
>make normal posts discussing subject
>DUDE CALM DOWN
Stop shitposting.

[Anonymous No.4612106]

>>4612078
You're not addressing OP's points. You're having a /mu/ discussion.

[Anonymous No.4612120]

>>4605853
>>4605856
You're looking at it from the wrong perspective. Companies found very early on that video games should be aimed to teenagers, and during the 90s, children. There is a reason the lost levels wasn't released in the united states. Games were meant to be mildly challenging at most for adults, for kids, they were pretty on point.

[Anonymous No.4612138]

>>4612106
Read the thread, you little retard. I outlined the game's flaws and simply responded to posters who disagreed with me about the soundtrack. That's not an /mu/ discussion, you fucktard. That's /vr/ discussion.

[Anonymous No.4612141]

>>4612059
>There are no variations. It's the same "song" over and over.
>They all sound the same.
Get your ears checked, and get back to /mu/.
I don't personally get the appeal of Doom 64's soundtrack at all, to me it's just a bunch of droning ambience that sounds the same. plus some clanking noises and groans every now and then, but somehow don't feel the need to go screeching about it on ever Doom thread...

[Anonymous No.4612150]

>>4612120
I've played plenty of arcade games from the 00's that are still challenging
>>4612138
Sure, but it's not as if the soundtrack being bad is really a flaw to even consider when discussing a game.

[Anonymous No.4612159]

>>4612150
>Sure, but it's not as if the soundtrack being bad is really a flaw to even consider when discussing a game.

>the soundtrack has nothing to do with a game's quality!!1
Dumbest thing I've read on /vr/.

[Anonymous No.4612175]

>>4612159
The soundtrack is not a game mechanic. You may like it or not, but it's merely a plus. You could remove the soundtrack entirely and still have the same game fundamentally. Thus it's not a deciding factor when considering it better or worse.
A good game with a bad soundtrack can exist. A bad game mechanically can't be good just with a good soundtrack.

[Anonymous No.4612181]

OP is taking a critical writing class in his first year at community college and wanted to write a blog post about a video game. This is quality posting? Yikes.

[Anonymous No.4612182]

>>4612175
>soundtrack doesn't matter
>graphics don't matter
>plot or characters don't matter
>A good game with a bad soundtrack can exist. A bad game mechanically can't be good just with a good soundtrack.
Tell that to Chrono Trigger or any other popular game that has shit gameplay, like Mario or Kirby.

[Anonymous No.4612194]

>>4605853
you need to get laid lol

[Anonymous No.4612210]

>>4612150
>I've played plenty of arcade games from the 00's that are still challenging
Right, now look at the list of top selling snes games of all time, and tell me what they have in common. Hint, they're all simple, easy to play, with secrets to look for. As an adult all games are trivial.

Look at baldurs gate, as a kid you're going to die, an awful lot. As an adult, you can play through it without anyone dying once, even on the hardest difficulty with mods for extra "challenge".

[Anonymous No.4612327]

>>4612181
>>4612194
Nah, I'm studying treasury management lol But again, nice counter-argument there, buddy. Ad hominems always win!
>>4612182
Well, it's not my fault that so many people enjoy game for things that aren't their mechanics. To me, they are lesser games, but that's because I play games for the game mechanics. It's a taste thing.
>>4612210
>As an adult all games are trivial.
Arcade games are far from trivial challenging-wise. Sure, popular games became easy after a point, but again, read what I said earlier to another anon; not my fault people play video games for stuff not related to how they play.

[Anonymous No.4612372]

>>4612327
>>4612175
>>4612150
>>4612106
>>4612071
This guy is a colossal moron. I wonder what other posts he made?

[Anonymous No.4612440]

>>4611910
>Please, don't start with this crap. You could make the same style of game as Super Metroid, just without relying on keys to unlock areas, but rather your brain to solve logical puzzles. In fact, Super Metroid already halfway works this way: when you're sequence breaking, you're essentially turning the game more into what I envision. You rely on your skills to explore and not some unlockable.
But it wouldn't be Super Metroid anymore. You don't get it because you keep talking about """keys""" and can't understand the difference between Wizardry and Zelda. Is Punch Out a bad game because I don't get to train at a gym and raise Mac's stats? No, because it's not a goddamned simulator. Some other anon gave you several posts explaining why your theoretical no-upgrades Metroid would be a wash, not because they're bad ideas, but because they don't fit with this type of game. Every single one of your complaints would not be complaints if you stop trying to shoehorn it into a completely different style of game.

Another extremely obvious reason why your weird Metroid would suck is balance. As you gain more ABILITIES, not fucking """keys""", your MOVESET increases and the enemies and layout change accordingly. If you start with everything, the early sections of the game would be even more lame, and since there's no longer a difficulty curve, the game would just keep getting worse as you go on, that's if the player is even willing to get non stop game overs trying to figure out how to use everything he has at the beginning of the goddamned game. The real problem is you as a person having a complete lack of feeling, since you can't sense the difference between a space mercenary exploring an unknown and dangerous world filled with living creatures and lost technology, and a rat lost in a maze.

[Anonymous No.4612449]

>>4612327
*tips fedora in defeat and chuckles*
Clearly you have bested me in this battle of wits which you have won with the most impeccable logic and reason, I henceforth cede that Super Metroid is a deeply flawed game because the game unbalanced due to energy tanks (which you can actually not collect if you wanted to make the game harder but this is neither here nor there) and that the Select button of all ungodly things selects your weapon (which you can change within the options but this is irrelevant). Well met, good sir.

[Anonymous No.4612468]

>>4611762
>what does that say about you?
It says that I'm annoyed by you shitting up literally every /vr/ thread with "I don't like these games so here's why you shouldn't".

[Anonymous No.4612949]

>>4611910
>Think of it this way: when you run into an optional upgrade, that's also a dead end mechanically. It's the same, but worse, since said upgrades unbalance the game's combat.
The fuck do you mean by "dead end mechanically"? The upgrade being there is what makes going off the beaten path worth the effort in the first place. The only way it would be a dead end is if there isn't anything there. Do you not know what a dead end is?
>And yes, I'd prefer a game that worked like that, it's my main point. Those rewards are just a cheap way to get people addicted that in actuality make the game worse.
Metroidvanias aren't skinner boxes you fucking moron. Upgrades exist in these types of games to give incentive to stop and explore the environment instead of high tailing straight to the final boss. They're not part of some manipulative addiction mechanism.
>You could make less dead ends by removing upgrades,
Removing upgrades doesn't get rid of dead ends, it creates them.
>and make exploration a challenge of logical puzzles.
You keep repeating this phrase but you have yet to elaborate on what it actually means. How is exploration even remotely related to logic or puzzles?

[Anonymous No.4612981]

OP, as much as i appreciate you analysing Super Metroid as much as you did, to be frank you're asking that Super Metroid be a very different game that it is.

Now granted many games played with the formula as it is, so you'll find a game you are looking for, super Metroid isn't an action game with a large map, its primarily a game abput exploring and discovering. Now its not my cup of tea but I played it enough to feel that satisfaction when i come across an upgrade. But I'm getting off track. Let's go through point by point:

Upgrades. I don't see what else you can put in the place of them as rewards or as means of progression. You just want a reward for feeling like you overcome an environmental obstacle, super metroid has tricks with wall jumps and to some extent the speed booster (which is optional). Super Metroid has never been about the combat so perhaps something like the more recent strider may be more your thing.

Even if you don't care aboit the upgrades, metroidvanias as a whole pride themselves on potential sequence breaking to see how fast they can go with the least number of items. That is now an intentional design for many metroidvanias with a focus on speedrunning. I fail to see how this is a design flaw.

Upgrades have a point as well, they give players with less skill a chance to power through a game. Look at games like dark souls that more or less runs with that. You could eventually power through that game with baseline skill and the best equipmentbut skilled players can do that without the best weapons and such. Siper Metroid is no different, at the very least, you only need a few upgrades to get to the end.

(To be continued)

[Anonymous No.4612993]

I can't believe this "progression bad" faggot is still shitting up this board. Fuck off forever.

[Anonymous No.4612998]

>>4612981

(Cont)

So you prefer a system without upgrades that require only your skill to progress. Why would you want super metroid to be that? Dozens upon dozens of other games already do that, and not only that think about it. Truely skilled first time players can accidentally find the best route to the end. And once you find the best route, why even explore? There's no upgrades to find, no tangible rewards for exploring the off beaten path? You'll just zip to the end all playthroughs because there's no point in exploration. Even worse, if you're a new player and the path you take leads to a deadend then you'll feel cheated. Unless you design each route with its own unique ending, but then that's not really an interconnected world since there's no reason to back track to go through another path since it'll take you to a different ending or boss. That could be an interesting concept for a metroidvania but that's not Super Metroid.

Super metroid is a game about being like an exploring treasure hunter, you explore, find treasure and feel good when you outsmart the game. And when you finish exploring, you try to find hidden secrets or you fins the quickest route around places. That is the essence of super metroid, to want it to do something else means you just expect it to be a different game.
(To be concluded)

[Anonymous No.4613014]

>>4612998

Now controls, well thats more of a personal issue rather than a game design flaw, i had no trouble with the controls but i heard others do. But controls are customizable to a degree so i suspect its about gettinf used to it.... or not. Sometimes you just don't feel for a control, but i find super metroid works for what its worth.

Combat cutscenes. Well after repeated playthroughs yeah they can be bothersome but come on, many linear games have unskippable cutscenes, at least Super metroid lets you move about in them.

Tldr version. It seems like your complains are that super metroid shouldn't be super metroid. I find that confusing, if you want to critic the game, should you not analtze the game basedoff its intended design and see where it failed? Otherwise it might as well be a whole new game.

Now if you want legitimate criticism, I'd say that theu should've made the ceres station skippable after the first playthrough, its presence serves little purpose after 1 play through and players should be given the option to skip that.

Welp thats it from me. I hope you consider what i say and that you'll reconsider your critique or at least think more about it.

[Anonymous No.4613052]

>>4612993
Yeah, I thought /vr/ would be a little more safe from 5th gen+ babies, but it's getting worse over time. This place is not for me anymore, it's essentially turned into "/v/'s nostalgic childhood". These past few days (a week or so) in particular have been getting pretty bad in that sense, that /v/ feeling (mindless shitposting, modern perspectives, threads about old games that are a lot like modern games...) has increased and threads about stuff I like have been getting very inactive.
So indeed, I'm off and leaving you guys with a place you can enjoy for yourselves (even if, to me, it seems like you just want an echo chamber). I'm clearly not fit for how people here see and enjoy games, or even what games. Hell, I don't even like anime and all that stuff younger guys that grew up with that here adore.
This means I won't be sharing this hobby I love with anyone anymore online since I like other sites even less, but nothing can be done about that. At least I have IRL buddies somewhat into this I get to see regularly.
>>4613014
Just in case, I read what you had to say and appreciated it, but if you also read what I wrote above you'll understand why I won't reply anymore.

[Anonymous No.4613087]

>>4613052
>someone says something you don't like so you make a whining wall of text about how anyone who disagrees with you is younger than you, the entire board is trash, you're out of place and all sorts of other melodramatic slop
You're the biggest fucking baby on the internet.

[Anonymous No.4613857]

>>4613052
BYE! BYE BYE!

[Anonymous No.4613862]

>>4613052
This guy has legit mental problems