/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.4578987]

Is playing Goldeneye/Perfect Dark with the mouse+keyboard and the 60fps hack the best way to play them?
I don't mind playing on the console with low framerate and the n64 control (in fact, I like the n64 controller for fps).

[Anonymous No.4578994]

For me it's the only way to play it, but I never played it back in the day. The game aged horribly, the fps dips into single digits at times and the controls are barely usable after you played a modern fps. The game itself is no longer very good, most mechanics feel old. I think most people play it for the nostalgic factor, it might have been a very important game back in its day, but its been completely surpassed.

[Anonymous No.4579004]

>>4578994
>the controls are barely usable after you played a modern fps
1.2 solitaire is no different than twin stick or wasd movement

[Anonymous No.4579008]

>>4578987
The 60fps makes it a lot more fun. The downside is mouse movement allows for a level of prescion, escpially while moving which would have been extremly difficult if not impossible on the n64.

The enemy ai, level lay out lay out, and gun stats was simply not designed to fight a player capable of having 100% accuracy from all distances while also being able to move freely.

[Anonymous No.4579019]

>>4579004
The n64 only has one stick, c button movement isn't as precise and has more awkward uses of diagonal. So it's inferior to a twin stick. A mouse however has so much precision that it outclasses the twin stick

So mouse+keyboard>twinstick>single stick

[Anonymous No.4579029]

>>4579019
I'm not saying is better, but I think "barely usable" is an exaggeration.
The N64 stick is surprisingly precise in terms of aiming and moving the camera (and considering the enemies give you time to aim, is not that huge of a deal to aim), the C-Buttons works just like WASD-movement imo.

[Anonymous No.4579030]

>>4578987
No. Just like RE4 wasn't made to be played with Wiimote. It goes against the design of the game and breaks it.

[Anonymous No.4579079]

>>4579030
RE4 Wii was still great fun

[Anonymous No.4579361]

I've never understood how anyone can play a shooter with a mouse. You really enjoy just pointing and clicking? Especially when people act like it's more challenging and makes them accomplished somehow.

[Anonymous No.4579402]

>>4578987
Yes

[Anonymous No.4579432]

No, it makes it too easy. It's nice what they've done but for me N64 all the way.

[Anonymous No.4579504]

>>4579361
Once you're good with a mouse it becomes an extension of your body. The ability to pick out spots and aim with high prescion, than instantly switch to another spot is a lot more fun than sluggishly moving the cursor with an analog.

And because mouse movement is so much stronger they make the opposition very fast or make you have to deal with more recoil.

A Console FPS is a joke.

[Anonymous No.4579507]

>>4579361
the challenge has to meet what you're capable of. in a game like goldeneye that's built around auto-aim it doesn't make a difference anyway, you're just going to hit your shots regardless of whether you're using the auto-aim or pointing and clicking with a mouse, especially since none of the targets make themselves challenging to hit in any way. go play any random public server on quake live, and you'll immediately understand why a mouse is essential for any game that takes advantage of what's possible in the genre. When you see how little you're capable of even with a mouse you'll understand how infinite the skill ceiling is.

[Anonymous No.4579510]

>>4579504
You must be real fun at parties

[Anonymous No.4579538]

I thought the sniper rifle was a metal rod with a camping sack rolled on top

[Anonymous No.4579539]

>>4579538
i thought the kf7 soviet was a pencil and I called it the pencil gun when I was a kid

[Anonymous No.4579558]

>>4578987
how do you play it like that?

[Anonymous No.4579629]

>>4579558
There's a 1964 emulator-built that allow both games to run at 60fps that also has a built-in plugin that enables mouse aiming and keyboard binding.
I really hope the plugin is later compatible with all n64 games, i think TWINE or even Conker's bfd would play nice with that setup.

[Anonymous No.4579637]

>>4579629
holy shit, i would love to replay goldeneye like this

[Anonymous No.4579646]

>>4579539
I thought the Klobb was a staple gun based on it’s looks and sounds.

[Anonymous No.4580124]

Can't believe all the faggots who don't know that tapping down C a few times will make every shot a headshot.
Then C-strafe speed run the game like a fuckin' pro.

[Anonymous No.4580128]

>>4579019
I do not fucking understand retards who use the c-button setup. Just use the fucking dpad to move, holy fuck.

[Anonymous No.4580174]

>>4579030
Wasn't originally designed for a Wiimote, cuz they didn't exist yet, yeah I guess. It's definitely the best way to play RE4, though. I played a crapload of GC RE4 extensively then Wii RE4 after. The ability to 'aim' while running makes it so much better. Going back to GC RE4 after felt awkward as hell.

[Anonymous No.4580310]

>>4579361
>I've never understood how anyone can play a shooter with a mouse. You really enjoy just pointing and clicking?
"You really enjoy just pushing the joystick and pressing a button?"
If the game is fun to begin with, having fluid controls enhances the gameplay experience
>Especially when people act like it's more challenging and makes them accomplished somehow.
The controls themselves aren't more challenging but they open up gameplay possibilities. It's why Goldeneye looks like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6l6_WKxRck#t=5m30s
While Quake looks like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHo4l-qmGHI

[Anonymous No.4581147]

>>4580128
How the hell do you use the A and B buttons if you're using dpad and analog stick?

[Anonymous No.4581154]

>>4581147
Uh with your right thumb retard. How tiny are your hands?

[Anonymous No.4581175]

>>4579646

Considering the damage output it might as well be

[Anonymous No.4581190]

>naming the worst gun in the game after a fellow employee
What did Rare mean by this?

[Anonymous No.4581208]

>>4581190
>Ken Lobb is known as a boisterous, opinionated man, and many believe that the gun's inaccuracy and ineffectiveness is part of the reason he got the honor of having the gun named after him.

[Anonymous No.4581213]

>>4581154
You control the analog stick with your index finger instead of your thumb?

[Anonymous No.4582014]

i hated the HD version of perfect dark on 360 that ran really smoothly and had dual analog control, it just felt wrong and way too easy. n64 or nothing imo.

[Anonymous No.4582078]

>>4578987
No, because that's not what the game is designed for and it significantly decreases the challenge. Although there's nothing wrong with playing it that way as a novelty/new experience after playing it the original way.
>>4579361
It doesn't feel like "point and click", it's not like playing an adventure game.

[Anonymous No.4582428]

>>4582014
>i hated the HD version of perfect dark on 360 that ran really smoothly and had dual analog control

[Anonymous No.4582439]

>>4578987
No that's the worst way to play. The game is intended and designed around the limitations of one stick. Playing with a mouse just trivializes the whole game.

>>4578994
So because it doesn't have garbage aim down sights or a fuck awful cover system its "aged horribly"? Get the fuck out of here with your brainlet views, kiddo. Not even going to bother to mention how you are blatantly trolling with the "dips into single digits" shit as that is a blatant lie spewed on here.

[Anonymous No.4582446]

>>4582014
This. It makes the game fell like a totally different experience. It's like playing a Wii game with motion controls to a port on a 360 pad.

>>4582428
Not an argument.

[Anonymous No.4582449]

>>4582446
I'm not arguing, I'm insulting
>hurrr the game is better at a slideshow framerate that's difficult to control
why don't you fucking kill yourself

[Anonymous No.4582505]

>>4578987
The mouse injector is a backdoor trojan don't use it.

[Anonymous No.4582547]

>>4579019
>>4579004
you can always use 2 controllers so you have 2 analog sticks, there is a controller layout just for that

[Anonymous No.4582623]

The best way to play is the one you're most comfortable with, but it's baffling how people claim to have so much trouble with these two.

>>4582449
>difficult to control

Children were able to figure this out 20 years ago. The fucking game even aims for you by default. If anything, it should be even simpler than using two sticks

[Anonymous No.4582627]

>>4579539

[Anonymous No.4582818]

>>4578994
Retarded post

[Anonymous No.4582847]

>>4582623
And yet you, presumably an adult, haven't figured out that FPS players prefer precision to having control wrested from them. Or even that a game's difficulty and it's controls aren't interdependent on each other.

[Anonymous No.4582869]

might as well post this here instead of starting a new thread. Haven't emulated Goldeneye in a while, but recently stumbled upon this mod

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSYaUv0vXMU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6pypQ45iHw&t=201s

These levels look like pure sex. When I was a kid I always assumed that when technology got good enough every single bond movie would have it's own videogame. This is about as close as I've seen to realizing that. I fucking need to play this.

The thing is....I have no idea how.

I downloaded the mod, and it's an .xdelta file which I've never seen before in my life. Some googling showed me that it's some sort of patch file that I need to patch the rom with using the command line or an app. But after that is there anything I need to do, or can I just run the rom and it will be the mod?

Never Romhacked before in my life, never had a reason to until now.

[Anonymous No.4582874]

[Anonymous No.4582951]

>>4578987
Playing it on real hardware is the best way to play it. I don't get why you faggots need mouse look for EVERY. FUCKING. GAME.

[Anonymous No.4582957]

>>4582869
I have the Rom on my laptop at home when I get back from work will upload

[Anonymous No.4583003]

>>4582847
Goldeneye’s entire game design is based around having s controller. Even the developers said this. That’s why the game isn’t simply Duke3D with James Bond but designed to be a slower and more tactical kind of shooter.

[Anonymous No.4584769]

>>4582869
this is fucking amazing

[Anonymous No.4585053]

>>4582869
>not just cutting out the middleman and calling it Gold Bond 64

[Anonymous No.4585202]

>>4582951
analog sticks are simply, literally, unusable as pointing devices
if you think goldeneye performs fine then lock your monitor to 20hz and use an n64 controller as a mouse replacement to browse the web. you wouldn't consider that satisfactory in a non-competitive scenario. I don't know why you think it should be ok for a game scenario where the timeliness, accuracy, and precision of your input is the most importand part of the experience

[Anonymous No.4585226]

>>4585202
>the timeliness, accuracy, and precision of your input is the most importand part of the experience
No, the most important part of the experience is good game design, which is better in Goldeneye than almost every PC shooter.

You’re like one of those mustards who spends all day benchmarking their PC instead o playing games, because you know deep down that your games are shit.

[Anonymous No.4585236]

>>4579030
damn RE4 on the wii was a great experience

[Anonymous No.4585242]

>re4wii best way to play
i cant believe the amount of casual in this thread

[Anonymous No.4585338]

>>4585226
>No, the most important part of the experience is good game design, which is better in Goldeneye than almost every PC shooter.

[Anonymous No.4585339]

>>4585242
it objectivey is, faggot

[Anonymous No.4585373]

>>4585226
Controls are part of game design.

[Anonymous No.4585406]

>>4580310
>Seriously making a comparison based on some faggot playthough on agent against a montage of pro shots

Goldeneye is supposed to be a slow paced, stealthy spy game with shooting that emulates the light gun steady aim style of arcade games. Theyr'e aiming at being different things and neither would be better if they were more like the other.

[Anonymous No.4585410]

>>4585373
And Goldeneye is designed around the controls it has.

[Anonymous No.4585995]

>>4578987
>>4579008

you can adjust the behavior of the enemy by completing the game on 00 agent difficulty

I'm amazed at how many people don't know this

[Anonymous No.4586003]

where was that thread where someone was talking about a goldeney romhack with goldfinger levels

[Anonymous No.4586012]

>>4586003
this thread lmao>>4582869

[Anonymous No.4586013]

>>4586003

I wonder

[Anonymous No.4586016]

>>4586012
>>4586013
thanks boys

[Anonymous No.4586021]

>>4578987
>the best way to play

Why don't you try thinking of it as a different way to play and just let yourself have fun for once?

[Anonymous No.4586052]

>>4582869

>The "zoom" issue with zoom-less guns when using higher FOV than default has been fixed on the latest mouse injector patch, along Camspy and Slayer support for Perfect Dark!

[Anonymous No.4586062]

>>4586052
wew lad

[Anonymous No.4586520]

>>4585410
That doesn't make it automatically good though. Trying to make a game around a shit control scheme can just turn into a shit game.

[Anonymous No.4586525]

>>4585406
The point is the top video would be possible in Quake, the bottom video would not be possible in Goldeneye. Better controls = more gameplay options and more potential for skill.

[Anonymous No.4586537]

>>4586525
If it wasn't for Goldeneye we would still be playing Doom clones (though that might be a good thing for some people). Limitations breed creativity.

[Anonymous No.4586720]

>>4578994
fuck off you millenial cunt, go back to dribbling pop tarts on your gunt and soy tits.

[Anonymous No.4586725]

>>4579504
>A Console FPS is a joke.
no its more impressive whilst you need ultra easy "extension of self" pleb mouse others master the pad and over come its shortcomings, you're a pleb basically who likes no challenge.

[Anonymous No.4586760]

>>4586725
>implying harder controls are a valid or rewarding form of difficulty

[Anonymous No.4586761]

>>4586720
>soy tits

[Anonymous No.4587524]

>>4586537
Goldeneye didn't influence anything except other James Bond games. Don't try to use the "even though it sucked, it was unique, so therefore it didn't suck" argument.

[Anonymous No.4587527]

>>4586725
>no its more impressive
It's only more impressive if you could pull off the same things with a controller. Slow, aim-assisted gameplay is not more impressive than fast, twitch aim gameplay just because it involves a controller.

[Anonymous No.4587804]

>>4587524
>Goldeneye didn't influence anything except other James Bond games
Yeah, only the entire FPS industry started making realistic style shooters after Goldeneye came out. Didn't influence 'nothin.

[Anonymous No.4587904]

>>4587804
>implying Half-Life wasn't in development beforehand and wasn't a bigger influence

[Anonymous No.4587909]

>>4581208
you don't shit talk Ken Lobb
dude did more for gaming than you ever will

[Anonymous No.4587916]

>>4587904
It "coincidentally" got a 12 month delay announced around the time of Goldeneye's release. Also Goldeneye was in development longer. It started in 1995, Half-Life in 1996.

In those 12 months they made Half-Life less 'Quake-like' than the earlier versions. I wonder why.

[Anonymous No.4588330]

>>4587804
>>4587916
Half-life became the formula most FPS used afterwards. The only other games like Goldeneye are other James Bond games. There's nothing in Half-life that is like Goldeneye either.

[Anonymous No.4588665]

>>4582874
You Brosnan burgered MY little sister, motherfucker?

[Anonymous No.4588729]

>>4582869
>Xdelta3: target window checksum mismatch: XD3_Invalid_Input
when I try to apply the patch

[Anonymous No.4589284]

>>4588330
>There's nothing in Half-life that is like Goldeneye either.
In-engine storytelling
Weapon reloading
Body part sensitive target locations
A focus on completing objectives, not collecting keycards
AI that uses animation for evasion
NPC escorts

[Anonymous No.4589381]

>>4589284
>In-engine storytelling
Most of the storytelling comes from the pre-mission briefings. Goldeneye still has individual levels that you select, more like DOOM than modern FPS design.
>Weapon reloading
An FPS with weapon reloading... yeah, Half-life ripped that right out of Goldeneye. You might as well list "has guns"
>Body part sensitive target locations
Existed before Goldeneye too.
>A focus on completing objectives, not collecting keycards
Also existed before Goldeneye.
>AI that uses animation for evasion
Existed before Goldeneye.
>NPC escorts
Existed before Goldeneye.

[Anonymous No.4589482]

>>4589381
>>Body part sensitive target locations
>Existed before Goldeneye too.
>>A focus on completing objectives, not collecting keycards
>Also existed before Goldeneye.
>>AI that uses animation for evasion
>Existed before Goldeneye.
>>NPC escorts
>Existed before Goldeneye.
which FPS games had these?
don't list non-FPS games or games that only have a single one of these features
if you list an FPS with two of these four features you win the argument

[Anonymous No.4589509]

>>4589482
>which FPS games had these?
>don't list non-FPS games or games that only have a single one of these features
Goalpost moving. Regardless,
>if you list an FPS with two of these four features you win the argument
One of my favorite FPS of the 90s, Strife.
Featured a hub world similar to Half-life's, the story was mostly told through voice acting by a partner who communicated with you by radio throughout the game, and the gameplay had you complete objectives that usually had multiple ways to accomplish (some of which give different endings), and even incorporated stealth elements like alarms that summon guards and silent weapons to avoid detection.

[Anonymous No.4589531]

>>4589509
Ok, I'm legitimately surprised, because I've never heard of this game before and what you're saying seems to not be bullshit. Why have I never seen this brought up?

[Anonymous No.4589539]

>>4578994
Shoe me a recent game that did PD's level design based on difficulty.

[Anonymous No.4589541]

>>4589531
Strife didn't have a lot of mainstream success. It came out around the time Duke 3D and Quake did but still used the DOOM engine, so it was overlooked. It's a pretty awesome game though, and very different from other FPS of the time. There's a special edition out on Steam
http://store.steampowered.com/app/317040/The_Original_Strife_Veteran_Edition/

[Anonymous No.4589542]

>>4579029
The secret behind the N64 stick's precision is exponential directional input, where everyone else used linear.

[Anonymous No.4589546]

>>4585995
Because it is inconvenient to their pea-sized brains.

[Anonymous No.4589585]

>>4589509
While Strife had a lot of cool features, it wasn’t a pure FPS, but more of an FPS/RPG hybrid.

Also you can’t influence games when you sell like shit. There wasn’t a single *popular* FPS that had those above listed features before Goldeneye.

[Anonymous No.4589596]

>>4589585
>it wasn’t a pure FPS, but more of an FPS/RPG hybrid.
It was mechanically an FPS that had an inventory system and gold you could spend on ammo/armor, and you could talk to NPCs. "FPS with rpg elements" is as far as you could stretch it, as it would never be considered an RPG.
>Also you can’t influence games when you sell like shit. There wasn’t a single *popular* FPS that had those above listed features before Goldeneye.
Again, Goldeneye didn't really influence anything outside of other James Bond games. Strife you could at least argue influenced Deus Ex, a different game series. Half-life was by far more influential than either.

[Anonymous No.4589602]

>>4589596
>Goldeneye didn't really influence anything outside of other James Bond games.
You can keep saying this but it's pure bullshit. After Goldeneye came out developers started making realistic shooters on-mass, and those games all had the features which I listed above. Saying "hurrr durrr reloading a gun is obvious" is a dumb argument, because if it was so obvious, Goldeneye wouldn't have been the first commercially released shooter to have a button dedicated to reloading your gun.

When you say that later shooters followed Half-Life's model, this is true but only limited to an extent. They followed Half-Life's LEVEL DESIGN model, which is where you have a continuous based linear level design of one set-piece to the next. But in a broader, more general sense, they followed the innovations Goldeneye made to making a realistic shooter that didn't have menus/inventories/NPC dialogue screens, but was as 'pure' as Doom.

You're not seeing the goddamn forest for the trees.

[Anonymous No.4589606]

>>4589596
>Again, Goldeneye didn't really influence anything outside of other James Bond games.


Ok, you're being reasonable otherwise, but you're really downplaying the influence Goldeneye did have. Thief and Counterstrike were directly influenced by Goldeneye, and you'd be hard pressed to deny either this or the relevance they did have to PC gaming.

[Anonymous No.4589610]

>>4589602
>After Goldeneye came out developers started making realistic shooters on-mass
When would you say "realistic shooters" began popping up? After Half-life's release by chance? Can you give me some examples of these that you think are like Goldeneye?
>When you say that later shooters followed Half-Life's model, this is true but only limited to an extent. They followed Half-Life's LEVEL DESIGN model, which is where you have a continuous based linear level design of one set-piece to the next.
The narrative-driven, continuous level design with lots of scripts are what we associate with modern FPS design. That's a very big distinction that blew people away at the time. Having a dedicated reload button, even if it was the first game that did it (and I'm not even sure it did), is just one of those things that would have happened inevitably and isn't necessarily influential. It's like claiming the first FPS where you could jump was hugely influential for its jumping feature, when that's just a feature that would have come about at some point anyway. It's not particularly creative to where that game had to exist for anyone else to do it later on.
>>4589606
>Thief and Counterstrike were directly influenced by Goldeneye
Source on that? Counter-strike especially I can't see any resemblence to, unless you mean the headshot-based gunplay, which was already around in even earlier Quake mods.

[Anonymous No.4589620]

>>4589610
>When would you say "realistic shooters" began popping up? After Half-life's release by chance?
Half-Life itself was part of the storm. But before that was also SiN and Rainbow Six.

>The narrative-driven, continuous level design with lots of scripts are what we associate with modern FPS design
Goldeneye also has scripted set-pieces, but it doesn't have the continuous level design. Quake 2 had the continuous level design but without the set-pieces. Half-Life's innovation to the genre was combining the two. It was a big influence, true. But it innovated absolutely nothing else.

> just one of those things that would have happened inevitably
Not an argument

>Source on that? Counter-strike especially I can't see any resemblence to
Counter-Strike started out as an attempt to bring the Goldeneye experience to the Half-Life engine. That's why earlier versions of the game had Goldeneye sound effects, and even came with Goldeneye maps.

http://counterstrike.wikia.com/wiki/Facility

>unless you mean the headshot-based gunplay, which was already around in even earlier Quake mods.
There were many experiments done to FPS gameplay in Quake mods (like with Doom mods), but Goldeneye was the first actual completed product FPS to have headshots and other targeted body locations.

[Anonymous No.4589652]

>>4589620
>Half-Life itself was part of the storm. But before that was also SiN and Rainbow Six.
It sounds like you're trying to say any FPS game that isn't like DOOM must have been based on Goldeneye.
>Half-Life's innovation to the genre was combining the two. It was a big influence, true. But it innovated absolutely nothing else.
The way Half-life's levels and narration were done basically invented the modern FPS genre. It didn't have a bunch of smaller innovative features but it laid the framework for how to make that kind of game, still used today.
>Not an argument
Just not one you can respond to.
>Counter-Strike started out as an attempt to bring the Goldeneye experience to the Half-Life engine. That's why earlier versions of the game had Goldeneye sound effects, and even came with Goldeneye maps.
Even though it plays nothing whatsoever like Goldeneye. Counter-strike also has Simpsons maps and sound-effects from Spongebob.
>There were many experiments done to FPS gameplay in Quake mods (like with Doom mods), but Goldeneye was the first actual completed product FPS to have headshots and other targeted body locations.
See two points up, the thing you didn't want to respond to. You want to give credit to Goldeneye for influencing every game that came after, even when its "innovations" were already thought up and implemented before it came out. You can see that it didn't require Goldeneye to exist for the feature to exist, it's just an inevitable gameplay mechanic that would come about after the era of DOOM-like games, especially as graphics moved towards true 3D.

[Anonymous No.4589690]

>>4589652
>you're trying to say any FPS game that isn't like DOOM must have been based on Goldeneye.
You seem to be unaware of the old 'Doom-clone' mentality. The game industry is highly fad-driven. Once a big hit comes out, everybody immediately rushes to clone that game and only that game with only minor innovations. Doom was that big hit which set the trend for FPS for the few years after that. Goldeneye was the first popular FPS to break the Doom trend. It was proof to the industry that the time for cloning Doom had ended and it was now commercially safe to follow a different trend. So yes, I am saying that.

>The way Half-life's levels and narration were done basically invented the modern FPS genre
The levels, yes. The narration, no. Goldeneye had exactly the same kind of narration as Half-Life, albeit without voice acting and some mission briefings before levels (which were necessary as the levels weren't continuous).

>Just not one you can respond to.
No, because it's a really REALLY dumb argument. You could boil down any innovation, in retrospect, to "it was obvious". It wasn't obvious to FPS developers at the time because Doom didn't do it. Goldeneye had different inspirations (Virtua Cop) so that's why it did have it.

>Even though it plays nothing whatsoever like Goldeneye.
-You have a similar amount of life in both games (e.g. headshots are instant kill)
-There's no way to recover health, but you can get armor
-Recoil works in a similar way. Realistic weapons.
-Skill isn't based on jumping physics but aiming and positioning tactics
-Hostage rescue/bomb defusal scenarios resemble a few single player levels in Goldeneye

The fact is that at the time, the multiplayer it most closely resembled was Goldeneye. There was also some Rainbow Six inspiration, but that game was also influenced by Goldeneye.

>Counter-strike also has Simpsons maps
Yeah, but unofficial.

>even when its "innovations" were already thought up
Not in commercially successful games though.

[Anonymous No.4589730]

>>4589690
> Goldeneye was the first popular FPS to break the Doom trend.
You'd just as well say System Shock did that 3 years before. Would you say Goldeneye and every non-DOOMlike FPS is based on System Shock instead? Or do you think several groups of people can independently decide to make an FPS not like DOOM?
>The levels, yes. The narration, no.
They go hand in hand. Goldeneye didn't invent NPCs, Half-life didn't invent continous levels, but Half-life did make what became the template for FPS design. Goldeneye made the template for what became other games in the 007 series.
>You could boil down any innovation, in retrospect, to "it was obvious". It wasn't obvious to FPS developers at the time because Doom didn't do it.
>>Not in commercially successful games though.
So you agree that people had already done it, just not in "commercial succesful games." So then yes, it was obvious and had been done. Maybe the first FPS engine using sprite-based enemies didn't do it, but eventually, particular as the genre moved towards 3D, it was independently developed.
>Goldeneye is like Half-life because Goldeneye invented the concept of hostages and bombs.
This is what I mean by giving Goldeneye undue credit for every game that came out after it. Is it not reasonable to assume that someone came up with the idea of terrorist/counter-terrorist FPS gameplay without being influenced by some vague mission in Goldeneye that used a bomb gadget?
>Yeah, but unofficial.
Okay,
http://counterstrike.wikia.com/wiki/Zoption
There, counter-strike must have been an attempt by the devs to bring the experience of Fallout to the Half-life engine. Makes sense, right? There's even a map with Vault 13 on it.

[Anonymous No.4589754]

>>4589730
>You'd just as well say System Shock did that 3 years before
Except System Shock (famously) sold like shit, which means, by definition, it wasn't very influential. The people behind System Shock did go on to make similar games to it, though. Also System Shock was not a pure shooter in the same sense that Doom was. It was a menu driven experience as much as a kinetic one.

>Half-life did make what became the template for FPS design. Goldeneye made the template for what became other games in the 007 series.
Goldeneye became the template for realistic 'post-Doom' shooters in terms of general shooter mechanics. While Half-Life's level design / scripting combination became a more specialized template. Fixed that for you.

>So you agree that people had already done it, just not in "commercial succesful games."
Individual elements had been done before in various games, but they had never been done in the particular combination that was influential. Also, those mechanics had not been done in successful and thus influential games. But besides, it's always been an argument to grasp at straws when some obscure game did X before the more widely known games.

>Is it not reasonable to assume that someone came up with the idea of terrorist/counter-terrorist FPS gameplay without being influenced by some vague mission in Goldeneye
It's hard to know what was in the mind of the designer, but Goldeneye was such a big hit that it's hard to believe anybody could have come up with the ideas independently. A bit like saying that 'it is not unreasonable' Sega came up with the Sonic platforming concept without the influence of Super Mario Bros. It's just not possible because of the big hit that was SMB.

>There, counter-strike must have been an attempt by the devs to bring the experience of Fallout
That's a straw man argument because 1) The gameplay mechanics are nothing alike (unlike Goldeneye) and 2) There was more to the CS-Goldeneye connection than just a map.

[Anonymous No.4590371]

>>4589754
>Individual elements had been done before in various games
>it's hard to believe anybody could have come up with the ideas independently

[Anonymous No.4590843]

>>4589754
System Shock sold well, it was just expensive to make so the profit wasn't great. Not that commercial success determine how influential something is anyway (Van Gogh was a failed artist in his lifetime but still had a major influence on art), but it was very influential
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Shock
>>GameSpy argued that the game "is the progenitor of today's story-based action games, a group with titles as diverse as Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil, and even Half-Life."[3] Eurogamer called the System Shock series "the benchmark for intelligent first-person gaming", and noted that it "kick-start[ed] the revolution which ... has influenced the design of countless other games."

>Goldeneye became the template for realistic 'post-Doom' shooters in terms of general shooter mechanics
Specifically, the reload button, which may have first been used in Goldeneye, and headshot damage, which had already been done, but you say doesn't count. That's hardly a template.
>those mechanics had not been done in successful and thus influential games
> it's always been an argument to grasp at straws when some obscure game did X before the more widely known games
You know that old "halo invented FPS" meme? This is the kind of reasoning that leads to that.
>It's hard to know what was in the mind of the designer, but Goldeneye was such a big hit that it's hard to believe anybody could have come up with the ideas independently.
Your argument keeps jumping between two points here. First you say Goldeneye came up with these things and any game that came after must have copied it from Goldeneye because you think it's unlikely that another game dev would have thought of doing that, then when you see that the feature was in an older game, you say it doesn't count because the game didn't have Nintendo-published level of commercial success, therefore Goldeneye still invented it and still nobody else could have thought of it independently?

[Anonymous No.4590879]

All these tldr posts. Goldeneye was renowned for it's 4player local play. Kids went apeshit over this and arcades died further.

[Anonymous No.4590963]

>>4590879
This. Everyone I know had or at the very least played goldeneye at someone elses house and loved it. The game was fun as shit, get over it nerds.

[Anonymous No.4591384]

>>4578987
Yes, and the same goes for every FPS game. Some console fag can say otherwise implying that every console game was designed for controllers. Like Phone fags saying the same about screen touching FPS's. But they forgetting that FPS is a genre originally intended for mouses, in the same way platform is intended for controllers, fighting intended for joysticks.

[Anonymous No.4591419]

>>4590843
nah. team fortress had reload and headshot

[Anonymous No.4591426]

>>4590879
I'm imagining some weiner kid in the 90s ranting about frames per second and industry influence while his friends stick him with the shitty controller

[Anonymous No.4591668]

I just played through Goldeneye with the 60fps m+kb emulator and to my surprise the game is still actually a challenge on 00 Agent difficulty. The 60fps makes the enemies' animations run faster so it kinda balances itself out (along with having auto-aim off, no crosshair outside of aiming mode and the mouselook being generally slow to use because it still acts like the analog stick and not like Quake or something). Guns also shoot a lot faster so if an enemy is already attacking you and you don't have time to dodge to cover you take a shitload of damage, it also means you run through your ammo supply really quickly if you're spraying and not just tapping/doing very short bursts. I found myself using the leaning function way more than when I played on N64 and also pre-firing certain corners.

Depot, Train, Control, Caverns and Aztec were all still fucking retardedly difficult because of this (with Train & Aztec being the hardest out of these by far). On the other hand Jungle was a lot easier than it is on console because it had like 10-15fps on n64, though I ran out of ammo on Jungle twice and had to restart because of it (couldn't get past the last room because of it).

So yeah, for the people that haven't played it with 60fps kb+m. It's a different way of playing the game for sure but it definitely doesn't make it an easy mode cakewalk like some people seem to think. Was definitely interesting to play it this way, purists need to actually try it before talking shit.

[Anonymous No.4591681]

>>4590963
While PC gamers were playing 16 or 32 player games where everyone got their own dedicated screens, no crutch radar that showed you where everyone else was, and played at 30 or 60 fps depending on game.
There's no objective reason you can give that GoldenEye is a better experience than this.
Now imagine going from 16 player Quake or 32 player Linewars to GoldenEye years after those games came out; it tends to colour your opinion of the multiplayer aspect.

[Anonymous No.4591682]

>>4582014
Nostalgia fags really are the worst.

N64 pd and ge64 are trash. Time to move on

[Anonymous No.4591691]

>>4587804
Other fps games ran at 7 fps?

[Anonymous No.4591702]

Why does this place hates goldeneye so much

[Anonymous No.4591729]

>>4591702
Goldeneye fags are the Brutal Doom fags of consoles.

[Anonymous No.4591737]

>>4591702
Because it was popular and on the N64. That's the beginning and end of it.

[Anonymous No.4591786]

>>4590843
>System Shock sold well,
For a niche PC games, it did fine. But there were almost 80 copies of Goldeneye sold for every 1 System Shock. Its sales were also incredibly unremarkable compared to Doom.

>Not that commercial success determine how influential something is anyway (Van Gogh was a failed artist in his lifetime but still had a major influence on art)
Van Gogh is a decent example, but the distinction is that he was not influential during his lifetime, much like System Shock was not during its lifetime. Arguably its sequel and spiritual successors were what influenced later games, rather than the original (because with games, unlike art, older works are easily forgotten). It’s better to say that it was simply ahead of its time. It innovated certain things quietly, while Goldeneye made similar innovations independently of it at a later date.

But in any case, these discussions of System Shock are weary. SS carries the legacy of Ultima Underground 2, an aRPG, while Goldeneye followed more of the Doom path. Which is why they both play so differently and were going for different things.

>headshot damage, which had already been don
You’re constantly confusing between who did what first, and who was influential.

>First you say Goldeneye came up with these things and any game that came after must have copied it from Goldeneye because you think it's unlikely that another game dev would have thought of doing that, then when you see that the feature was in an older game
Because you’re confusing my point. Goldeneye both created and influenced the modern realistic FPS template in terms of general mechanics (not so much level design). By template I mean a particular collection (or omission) of FPS mechanics that are now considered standard.

However, it also was responsible for bringing certain mechanics to the FPS genre for the first time (e.g. reloading) or simply bring the first major influencer of these mechanics (e.g. headshots).

[Anonymous No.4591802]

Half Life does far more to move FPS away from Doom than Golden Eye did.

Furthermore it was released on the platform that was actually relevant for FPS games.

The only thing you can say about Golden Eye is that it came out about 6 months earlier.

The most importaint shooters -for the single player player mode-

Wolfenstein: Arguable created it
Doom: Created a template that would last for years
Quake: Important innovations in 3D
Half Life: Created a new template, a hybrid inbetween the old doom style and the soon to be half life 2 style.
Half life 2: Created the cinematic experience
Far Cry 1: First to break out of the corridor style of level design
Far Cry 2: Open world in the FPS format.

[Anonymous No.4591807]

>>4591802
The goldencucks try to get around that by saying "goldeneye invented half-life"

[Anonymous No.4591812]

>>4591802
It’s genuinely hard to think of what Half-Life brought to the FPS table other than combining scripted set-pieces (Goldeneye) with continuous levels (Quake 2).

If Goldeneye’s influence is overrated, then what does that make Half-Life?

[Anonymous No.4591817]

>>4591812
Golden Eye is still heavily in the Doom format. You run through corridors and shoot waves of enemies stopping occasionally to activate a something or pick up an item. There are very few set pieces and they aren' that great. Half Life made much greater sense of being an actual world instead of simply being a shooting gallery. It's obvious Half Life is many steps more removed from Doom than Golden Eye.
>If Goldeneye’s influence is overrated,
It is. Very few developers outside of console's cited GE as an influence. That's literally what influence means.

>then what does that make Half-Life?
One of the most importaint FPS in history, far above a flavor of the month console shooter evangelized by children who barely even knew games outside of consoles fucking existed. I still remember how people swore upon and down on it's greatness because of the fucking multi-player. You're talking about a game with horribly ugly environments, hideious character models, and a simple shooting gallery that doesn't an interesting arsneal of weapons, with gimped enemy ai to compensate for the gimped input that the controller enables. To put it bluntly it's a decent game that got blown up to religious status by it's cultists. Not only is it not very influential it's not even very good. If got a PC release, and not a console release, and the license from it was removed no one would even remember the game exists after 5 years.

[Anonymous No.4591821]

>>4591817
Brainlet console war nonsense.

[Anonymous No.4591823]

>>4591821
I said nothing about "console wars", you retard.

Christ do you even think or do you just type out random words onto the keyboard?

[Anonymous No.4591826]

>>4591823
Mustard bullshit is still console warring.

[Anonymous No.4591827]

>>4591812
>scripted set-pieces (Goldeneye)
Goldeneye invented scripted set pieces now?

[Anonymous No.4591828]

>>4591827
haha i thought the same thing when i read that.

[Anonymous No.4591829]

>>4591827
In FPS it did. Best known example is in the Control level. See 4:55.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJVc5uO3B7w

[Anonymous No.4591832]

Actually scrap that. This is probably more famous See 3:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pievGAP444

[Anonymous No.4591834]

>>4591826
So your brain just looks at the word "PC" and you instantly ignore the point and start blathering on about memes. Fucking autism at work.

The point is that Golden Eye was worshiped by an audience that had very little exposure to PC shooters, which in the 90s is like 99% of the fucking FPS library. So it gets evangelized by people that have absolutely no standards for FPS, for most of it's advocates it was probably their first FPS period. Golden Eye's cult-like status has almost entirely to do with it being a console game, to a lesser extent it being one of the better movie games also helped.

[Anonymous No.4591836]

>>4591829
This is more doom-like than Duke 3D.

[Anonymous No.4591837]

>>4591832
What is this? He shoots a guard, avoids shooting the hostage, and shoots some fucking locks off a box.

That's a 'set piece' apparently. Maybe the game also invented boxes.

[Anonymous No.4591843]

>>4591837
He kind of did it all in 3 seconds, but here's what it is boiled down into a form your little brain can understand

>Hostage situation
>Bomb timer
>Have to cut the floor with your laser before the time goes off
>Story sequence of Natalya working out where Boris and co are going.
>Tension of having to wait for Natalya to finish what she is doing vs timer rapidly ticking down
>Have to quickly exit train before it blows up

It's like a goddamn movie you fuckhead. I suppose the beginning sequence of Half-Life with the physics experiment wasn't a set piece because all you do is climb a ladder, push a button, and then push a trolley.

[Anonymous No.4591846]

>>4591843
I've got your time limits, cutscenes, and hostage situation right here.

This whole fucking game is a set piece!

[Anonymous No.4591849]

>>4591846
Wow, what a surprise that a game which was inspired by Virtua Cop is similar to another light gun game!

[Anonymous No.4591850]

>>4591837
>Maybe the game also invented boxes.
Older games had boxes in them but Goldeneye was more successful than them and thus more influentual, so for all intents and purposes it did in fact invent boxes.

[Anonymous No.4591851]

>>4591850
>he's resorting to full-on strawmanning now

[Anonymous No.4591852]

>>4591849
A hostage is not a setpiece, neither is a time limit or NPC dialogue. The point is that Time Crisis has those in spades so by your twisted and deceptive use of the word 'set piece' they most set-piece filled games ever made! You're just another Golden Eye cultist speweing out whatever words you think will make the game seem important. You don't actually think about what the words you use mean.

[Anonymous No.4591853]

>2007
Halo invented FPS

>2017
Golden Eye invented FPS

[Anonymous No.4591856]

>>4591852
A set piece simply means a scripted gameplay event that is structured around a story event that is distinct from 'normal' play.

It's not really that hard to understand.

[Anonymous No.4591857]

>>4591829
>In FPS it did.
lol

[Anonymous No.4591858]

>>4591853
No, that's a strawman argument. Goldeneye didn't invent FPS, it just invented FPS after the year 1997. Every FPS that was made after 1997 began development as a Goldeneye clone and then branched off from there. In fact, FPS before 1997 can't even really be called FPS due to how much Goldeneye revolutionized the whole genre. In fact, yes, Goldeneye did invent FPS.

[Anonymous No.4591860]

>>4591857
>no counter-example
>just 'no'
worthless post

[Anonymous No.4591861]

>>4591858
Holy shit, you are mad.

[Anonymous No.4591863]

>>4591856
It's the same basic sequence as a hostage situation in time crisis with the except of that the story is far more elaborate. The difference is the girl is a character with a lot of background and a lot more cutscenes.

When people use the word 'set pieces' they are usually talking about big impressive things like fighting an enemy airship with a special weapon. Not a mundane situation such as 'kill this guard and don't shoot the hostage'.

[Anonymous No.4591868]

>>4591863
Nobody is saying Time Crisis didn't do it before Goldeneye dude. Goldeneye itself was highly inspired by Virtua Cop which is where it got a lot of its ideas from. And Time Crisis is just a more movie version of Virtua Cop.

But neither are FPS. They are lightgun games. It's funny how most anti-Goldeneye people follow the same predictable points in pic related. You just went for #4.

>Not a mundane situation such as 'kill this guard and don't shoot the hostage'.
lmao, way to undersell what actually happens in the game

[Anonymous No.4591869]

>>4591863
To add to this. The little hostage segment takes about 3 seconds in your video. Sure it's a speedrun but a normal play wouldn't take much longer on the sequence.

It's silly to compare a 3 or 5 second hostage moment it to real set pieces as seen in games such as Half Life 2. The Tentacle monster in Half life 1 even. Fuck the hostage moment in Golden Eye isn't even as good as the moments in House of the Dead which featured far better use of cinematography and more unique animations. Now THAT is saying something. We'd be better including House of the Dead in the history of 'set pieces than Golden Eye.

[Anonymous No.4591870]

>>4591817
>I still remember how people swore upon and down on it's greatness because of the fucking multi-player.

You'd be right to knock down these people. It's single player campaign was always the heart of the game and that remains rock solid though.

[Anonymous No.4591872]

>>4591868
>But neither are FPS. They are lightgun games.
Lightgun shooters are a sub-subgenre of FPS.

[Anonymous No.4591873]

>>4591869
>it wasn't innovative because a game in another genre did it better or an FPS that came out later did it better
Just stop dude, please. You're making PC gamers look like closed minded fools who refuse to concede any ground to consoles even if it makes them look ridiculous

[Anonymous No.4591875]

>>4591868
You aren't making a counter point. I don't care what "#4" is because I'm not going to read your retarded little image.

You have essentially made a reply which addresses no points what so ever. Maybe you should do that instead of reaching for some meme reaction image. You know, have a discussion?

"underselling" LOL if anything I was giving that shitty video way more respect than it deserved. The sequence is so minor and easily overlooked it needed to be explained what the hell is even supposed to count as a 'set piece'. The whole thing was over in about 2 seconds. You would have missed it if you blinked.

[Anonymous No.4591879]

>>4591875
Here you go then buddy. From a run that isn't a speedrun. See 5:25

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh59bY3vKVk

And it doesn't matter if it's over in 3 seconds or whatever. It's still in the fucking game. You're just doing a lot of special pleading.
>it doesn't count because it's too short
>it doesn't count because light gun games did it better
>it doesn't count because FPS that came out after the game improved on it

But we know where your argument is really heading
>it doesn't count because it's a console FPS which is a forbidden category that we dare not speak of

[Anonymous No.4591880]

>>4591872
>Lightgun shooters are a sub-subgenre of FPS

you can't reason with this guy. he keeps getting his points refuted and then comes up with reason why earlier games "don't count" because they "weren't as popular" or because "they had rpg elements" lol

[Anonymous No.4591881]

>>4591873
That's not what I said at all. By discussing House of the Dead and Time Crisis I'm saying there is a small point to concede, but it's a point that the GE advocates inflate to absurd levels.

If you wanted to talk about set-pieces in Golden Eye the best place to go would probably be the tank in the airport level. That at least isn't some tiny 2 second little hostage scene and was actually cool.

[Anonymous No.4591890]

>>4591880
Are you actually trying to say light gun games = FPS. The goal posts keep getting shifted haha.

>Why earlier games "don't count" because they "weren't as popular"
Stop the presses! Popularity and influence have NOTHING to do with each other. The guy that invented the practical lightbulb in his basement but told nobody about it was just as influential as Edison because he did it before Edison!

[Anonymous No.4591894]

>>4591879
God. You're really retarded. At least you tried to address some points, the problem is you aren't even aware of what the points.

The point with Time Crisis isn't that it makes Golden Eye "not count" (that's your learning disability reading in things that aren't there. The point is what you are showing is that this is not a 'set-piece'. A time limit is also not a set piece. I don't even know if you remember it but you made the arguement that Golden Eye invented set-pieces and that the shitty little thing in your video proves it (you've probably forgotten you said that by now).

I gave you examples of real set pieces such as those from Half Life 2, which you either by intending to lie or having some fucking brain-disorder intrperetted it to mean that (GE doesn't count because there are better games). I also mentioned even if we include such mundane things in the discussion of set-pieces they were done better in light-gun games (which you failed to understand and started rambling on about genres)

You're barely making any counter points. Mostly because you can't even figure out what the points being discussed are and just vomit out absolute dreck onto your keyboard and hit send. It's like English is your second language and you are just guessing at what sentences mean and becoming increasingly more angry.

>>4591880
If you're going to completely make shit up about my points why not just go full throttle and say that I believe Golden Eye came out the same year as Crysis and have been comparing them non-stop. Fucking retard.

[Anonymous No.4591896]

>>4591873

>You're making PC gamers look like closed minded fools who refuse to concede any ground to consoles even if it makes them look ridiculous

is this the guy that earlier was claiming that counterstrike was originally intended as a fan remake of goldeneye?

[Anonymous No.4591902]

>>4591890
Justin Bieber was more influential in music than Muddy Waters because he's more popular

[Anonymous No.4591908]

>>4591894
>I gave you examples of real set pieces such as those from Half Life 2
Uh huh, so a "real" set piece vs a "not-real" set piece is based on how long they are (can you specify the minimum length in seconds?) and how good they are (can you specify a metric for quality, please?).

>>4591896
>counterstrike was originally intended as a fan remake of goldeneye?
Here come the strawmans again, lmao. It was influenced by Goldeneye to the extent that they borrowed some mechanical elements, used a Goldeneye map, and even sound effects, but it was never intended to be a remake of Goldeneye and nobody ever stated that in this thread.

[Anonymous No.4591913]

>>4591908
>Uh huh, so a "real" set piece vs a "not-real" set piece is based on how long they are (can you specify the minimum length in seconds?) and how good they are (can you specify a metric for quality, please?).

I think everyone on here has a different definition of what a "set-piece" means, it started off as someone claiming that goldeneye "invented" set-pieces, somehow, and then it just keeps getting redefined anytime someone gives an example of the many, many games that did all those things before goldeneye, so i'm not sure what argument is being made other than console fanboys desperately grasping for straws to defend the only fps they got to play when they were kids. hell, most of the videos being shown are things that could be easily scripted in the duke nukem engine

[Anonymous No.4591915]

I'm the anti-GE dude that's been talking. I think I'll use this to articulate some points and some concessions.

*GE did move the concept of story more. It's objectives and NPCs are far above most FPS for the time
*It's still ultimately a shooting gallery game and is very Doomish. Lots of corridors and waves of enemies. It's objectives are more often than not just story-significant switches or keycards.
*GE was not very influential. It was popular though. This isn't to say it had no influence bu the big game that everyone copied was Half Life, the consoles though had a much bigger influence of Golden Eye because it's controls were so good for the time.
*It's cult like status exists because for many people that grew up only with consoles it was their first FPS experience. It's multiplayer was celebrated just as much if not more than it's single player in it's own time. So it's popularity is the result of it being a child-hood memory from people that had no other FPS to compare it to. This created a generation of Zealots that religiously advocated for it's greatness working hard to pile on undeserved fame and honors.

[Anonymous No.4591916]

>>4591915
>It's still ultimately a shooting gallery game and is very Doomish. Lots of corridors and waves of enemies. It's objectives are more often than not just story-significant switches or keycards.
See, the fact that you are saying this just makes me believe you don't have much experience with Goldeneye. Nobody that has played the game extensively on 00 Agent mode would say this.

When you are on Agent mode (otherwise known as easy mode), the game is very much about mowing down enemies before they can shoot you, and completing easy objectives like getting from A to B.

But once you get on 00 Agent, you are essentially forced to become more stealth-aware, quietly take down enemies with heatshots, use gadgets like mines creatively, etc. Also, the objectives become much more extensive and complicated.

I think the real issue here is that you don't know that much about Goldeneye but are arguing based on your surface level impressions of it.

[Anonymous No.4591923]

>>4591916
I'll admit I'm rusty on my experience of it. I have played it but I havn't done a big play through in a very long time: I have no intention either because for it me is far too dated. That said I'd like to discuss the points rather than turning this into a character attack.

Now if I remember correctly the overwhelming majority of objectives are a simple 'collect this' 'activate this' (basically keycard hunts but with more story-rich keycards). There are some objectives that are dynamic and have multiple or more engaging ways of copletetion: for instance on the airport you can either destroy the turrets with a mine or shoot them with the tank, the tank itself is completly optional. Protecting NPCs is also dynamic.

There's such objectives are a minority, so at best we can say they are budding. It's big feat was making objectives story-relevant.

As for 00 all I remember is it made combat tougher and there be a few more objectives. It definitely made you have to think more. So did playing on a harder mode for Duke 3D. If I recall it didn't turn it into a full stealth game. It was certainly more advanced stealth than Duke 3D or Quake. That's a point you can give it. It was still ultimatly about shooting through waves, you couldn't even stealth in many areas or engagements (I think the majority of them).

[Anonymous No.4591940]

>>4591923
>all I remember is it made combat tougher and there be a few more objectives
The changes it makes totally transforms how you play the game. Not only are enemies tougher, more plentiful, have better reaction time, but you also lose auto-aim. This means you have to be quiet and careful how you shoot. Headshots are generally required for quick takedowns. Not every level requires full stealthing around, but some do like the Bunker levels.

>It was still ultimatly about shooting through waves
Trying to shoot through waves will just get you killed on 00 Agent. That's why the Natalya event on Control is one of the hardest parts of the whole game, because it forces you to shoot through waves without any stealth option. Generally speaking on 00 Agent, if you are caught facing a wave of guards, your best bet is to fire a shot on all of the guards to stunlock them and quickly strafe behind a corner.

[Anonymous No.4591953]

>>4591940

so now your argument is that goldeneye invented difficulty levels? "woah, you have to plan your attacks. this is so revolutionary and innovative. every game from now on will be a clone of this"

[Anonymous No.4591957]

>>4591953
Close but no cigar. It invented meaningful difficulty levels in first person games that changes things other than bullet sponging the fuck out of everything.

[Anonymous No.4591961]

>>4591940
Since you mentioned Control, I watched this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVYP1xb26JA

Nothing in this video would be considered stealth. It's just moving cautiously and trying to engage enemies one at a time or at the right angle. You did this in Quake or Duke 3D. It's still a basic aspect of the shoot gallery type games and does not represent anything new. Your claim that 00 represents a different experience entirely doesn't seem to hold up.

[Anonymous No.4591963]

>>4591957
I'll concede that it ups the number of objectives. But since most of these objectives are just key-hunts, key-hunts for very story rich keys, it's not much of an accomplishment.

I also think this statement >that changes things other than bullet sponging the fuck out of everything.
Is a terrible point. Most FPS made there be more enemies, sometimes even more aggressive ones.

Also it's terrible that you had to 'disable auto-aim' to pad out what the difficulty settings do. Auto-aiming on shooters is a console thing made to compensate for it's shitty controller.

[Anonymous No.4591970]

>>4591961
There's hardly any stealth in Control. It's a pure shooting / enemy management level. Once the Natalya event begins, all the enemies know where you are anyway.

A better level is Control 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbOsLAxTDBE

The thing that confuses Gen-Z most about Goldeneye is that its stealth system isn't formally announced to the player. There's no "shadow meter" or "alarm stages" on the HUD (though alarms can go off). It's built into the fabric of the shooting mechanics. To avoid that you either need to use silent weapons, or not fire burst shots (one bullet at a time with the K7 Soviet doesn't make much noise).

If you make too much noise, the game will throw endlessly respawning guards at you. Here's a good example. The guy botched his stealth run straight away and had to be holled up in the one room for 5 minutes until there was a gap in the respawns and he could get away. However, that meant he was essentially chased the whole mission by guards so had to do it fast. It would have been much easier just to be quiet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pP1LAqPZas

As for engaging enemies one at a time, or at the right angle, that's just a technique of gaming the AI which works in every FPS pretty much ever created.

[Anonymous No.4591982]

>>4591970
I watched about 2 minutes and did not see anyhting that would be remotly considered stealth. This is simply playing around around with enemies line of site. We had this in Wolfenstein 3D dude. You could avoid detection from mooks in Duke and Quake also or engage them when they hadn't seen the player to get the first hit in.

This is slightly more advanced than Duke 3D, but nothing new.

>The thing that confuses Gen-Z most about Goldeneye is that its stealth system isn't formally announced to the player. There's no "shadow meter" or "alarm stages" on the HUD (though alarms can go off). It's built into the fabric of the shooting mechanics.

This is boarding on being cringey.
In short I think you have done nothing to show us this isn't basically just shooting gallery game with extra cutscenes and story-relevant keycards. You have been making mountains out of mole-hills: minor increments to pre-existing mechanics.

[Anonymous No.4591985]

>>4591982
Are you actually trying to deny the existence of stealth mechanics in Goldeneye?

We've hit peak mustard.

[Anonymous No.4591989]

>>4591985
My point is if we're going to call Golden Eye a stealth game you might as well fucking call every FPS ever made a stealth a game. All of them had some sort of line-sight mechanic and enemy awareness that allowed you to control when you and where you engaged the enemies at.

Are you that same idiot that was telling us Golden Eye invented set-pieces? You have same habit of being completely unable to process the actual points of a discussion and just spouting whatever memes happen to pop into your head at the moment.

[Anonymous No.4591996]

>>4591989
>All of them had some sort of line-sight mechanic and enemy awareness that allowed you to control when you and where you engaged the enemies at.
Except unlike other FPS of the time (with the exception of the FPS/RPG Strife) weapons have an audio radius which alerts guards, and there punishments for not playing stealthily (alarms, infinite spawning guards, etc).

You're being the dumbest shit on the planet if you think he's simply trying to kill enemies by engaging their line of sight. What he's actually trying to do is kill them with silent weapons before they can fire off their shots.

[Anonymous No.4592008]

>>4591996
from the perspective of a lurker, i think you're the one acting dumb. you're acting like a gay at this point. you're argument has essentialy devolved into "oh noes, he's using certain weapons to kill certain monsters because line of sight. so revolutionary, this changes everything" and you keep refuting/ignoring the laundry list of games people mention that had these mechaincals first but you say they "don't count" because there not the exact some genre or they didn't sell as many copies as goldenaxe and then you call everyone who disagrees with you a "strawman" as if you think that makes you sound smart. your making me slit my wrists over here....

[Anonymous No.4592010]

>>4591996
If you want to say it has some primitive stealth, sure that's fine no problem, as long as we also agree Wolfenstein had stealth in it's own primitive way.

Golden Eye has incremental increase to the basic concept of approaching enemies well. There's a noise variable to detection, that's certainly an upgrade in technology which is respectable enough. This isn't what would be considered a stealth game at all. . Every once in awhile getting to running down a corridor and throwing a knife instead of shooting an ak47 is not like Metal Gear Solid, it's not even Far Cry. You don't even have a silenced weapon in majority of levels if I recall.

This is a shooting gallery game.


.

[Anonymous No.4592015]

>>4592008
>from the perspective of a lurker,
Doesn't matter who you are but what your arguments are. And I don't see any arguments other than

>you're acting like a gay
Top-tier bants my lad.

[Anonymous No.4592023]

>>4592010
> as long as we also agree Wolfenstein had stealth in it's own primitive way.
Can you articulate what are Wolfenstein's stealth mechanics?

>>4592010
>Every once in awhile getting to running down a corridor and throwing a knife instead of shooting an ak47 is not like Metal Gear Solid, it's not even Far Cry
Can you please explain the mechanical differences between Goldeneye and these games?

>You don't even have a silenced weapon in majority of levels if I recall.
You only have it in levels where the designers thought stealth was sufficiently important. And perhaps even not then. The game has a "smart" audio radius where firing one shot with intervals between them doesn't produce very much noise.

[Anonymous No.4592025]

>>4592015
>Top-tier bants my lad.
guess i struck a nerve. now your going all black on me, so you think it matters who 'you' are, just not who 'i' am. got it. very advanced, no wander you like goldenaxe so much....

[Anonymous No.4592031]

>>4592023
>Can you articulate what are Wolfenstein's stealth mechanics?

line of sight, sneaking up on ememies from behind, if you shoot a gun while unactivated emines are facing away from you, it will alert them, so there's the stealth of getting behind the closed doors and opening and closing them when fighting bosses. also corners serve as cover, and in some levels you have to sneak around guards who are on patrol paths, and the dogs

[Anonymous No.4592048]

>>4592023
>Can you articulate what are Wolfenstein's stealth mechanics?

Enemies do not see you sometimes which lets you get the drop on them. The first level starts with you facing an enemy that has it's back turned. This is of course highly primitive. I mean to establish that there was a incremental growth to this type of 'stealth'. Duke 3D had more sophisticated detection than Wolfenstein, Quake more than that, Golden Eye more than that.

>Can you please explain the mechanical differences between Goldeneye and these games?
In Metal Gear Solid you can avoid nearly every enemy and if you can't it's really important to get the drop on them. Stealth is your first consideration 95% of the time.

In Far Cry you engage the vast majority of enemies but you want to always get the drop on them. The LEAST stealthy parts of Far Cry are the bunker levels which from what I've seen are comparable to the MOST stealthy parts of Golden Eye.

In both games, rushing will probably get you killed 95% of the time. They also feature very dynamic and advanced detection and have many actions that interact with stealth things such as crouching (crouching hardly matters for stealth in GE while in the other games it's required even in the tutorial). Stealth is not a something that sometimes happens in certain sections of certain levels, it is not 'in addition' it's the main thing. You won't make it out of the tutorial without stealth. And unless it's a boss fight there won't be a single section where it isn't something you are always trying to do.

[Anonymous No.4592056]

You guys are so clueless.
Golden eye was the first FPS game ever to feature Karate Chops and a watch that can melt steel and attract metallic objects.

First FPS game ever to feature electromagnetism and change of the physical state of matter.

[Anonymous No.4592057]

>>4592056
Did the watch operate off jet-fuel?

[Anonymous No.4592061]

>>4592057
Now you're being nitpicky.

[Anonymous No.4592073]

>>4592061
If you don't draw a line between when stealth is is the primary focus and a constant thing and when stealth is secondary and only on occasion: you would have to classify all FPS as stealth games since every one of them has featured some form of enemy detection that could be used to your advantage.

This isn't denying that FPS games can make improvements in technology and mechanics relevant for stealth, but they do not earn the title of 'stealth game' if they don't emphasize the mechanic very much.

[Anonymous No.4592082]

>>4592031
I asked because I was curious what you were going to say about Wolfenstein. It's certainly true that it does have some stealth like elements (after all, the older Wolfenstein games had them). But there's also some extra context which you omitted.

The game lacks reaction times for enemies which is essential for a 3D stealth game. That means that it's impossible to check for a patrol except to risk being seen yourself, as a line of sight is immediate detection if you're unlucky enough to be facing the patrol. The game simply relies far too much on 'hitscan' line of sight as a basis for stealth. This, and the lack of other stealth mechanics like the sort Goldeneye brought to the table meant that the game is not balanced for stealth play. John Carmack said that much.

I remember a Wolf3D stealth-based map released some time ago had to fiddle around with the game settings to make some enemies invincible because there was no other way to make them threatening.

Strife took the concept further and Goldeneye even further. But it's wrong to say these two games made no genuine improvements and that Wolf3D is really in the same category as them.

[Anonymous No.4592091]

>>4592073
Why you talking to me about stealth, I need no stinking stealth. That's the path of cowardice.

[Anonymous No.4592096]

>>4592048
>In Metal Gear Solid you can avoid nearly every enemy and if you can't it's really important to get the drop on them. Stealth is your first consideration 95% of the time.
It's theoretically possible to beat many Goldeneye levels without being seen, because the AI cannot see through windows.

>In Far Cry you engage the vast majority of enemies but you want to always get the drop on them.
This is very vague.

>In both games, rushing will probably get you killed 95% of the time
It's exactly the same in Goldeneye on 00 Agent (and Secret Agent to some extent).

> They also feature very dynamic and advanced detection and have many actions that interact with stealth things such as crouching (crouching hardly matters for stealth in GE while in the other games it's required even in the tutorial).
Do you mean hiding behind boxes while crouched? Is that actually necessary to beat the game, or is just a mechanic that helps? Because I'm pretty sure Goldeneye also works the same way.

>Stealth is not a something that sometimes happens in certain sections of certain levels, it is not 'in addition' it's the main thing
There are also parts of MGS and Far Cry where stealth is disregarded for combat. Stealth is valuable throughout every level in Goldeneye to at least some extent. You just need to play the game to know this.

You're setting up some kind of false contrast that doesn't exist, probably because you haven't played enough Goldeneye (particularly on 00 Agent).

[Anonymous No.4592097]

>>4592082
I used Wolf 3D as an extreme example. My goal was to show that all FPS games have some form of stealth. It just started out super primitive and got deeper and deeper. However the label of 'stealth game' must be reserved or games that greatly emphasize these mechanics. Golden Eye cannot be considered a stealth game like Far Cry can because it's simply not as big a feature in the game.

The emergence of "stealth FPS" came when they started emphasizing the line of sight and detection that had existed since Wolfenstein. It's about emphasis rather than a certain level of technology.

[Anonymous No.4592102]

>>4592097
>However the label of 'stealth game' must be reserved or games that greatly emphasize these mechanics. Golden Eye cannot be considered a stealth game like Far Cry can because it's simply not as big a feature in the game.
Compare the number of times the word "stealth" appears on the Wikipedia pages for Goldeneye and Far Cry.

[Anonymous No.4592148]

>>4592096
>It's theoretically possible to beat many Goldeneye levels without being seen, because the AI cannot see through windows.

Theortical and "part of the normal play" are very different. It is theortically possible to beat Contra with almost no kills and avoiding the enemies, but we wouldn't say it's a game about running away from enemies.

>Stealth
What I am talking about here is emphasis. Stealth is simply the main thing you do in the game. It's not something you do only on certain missions or only when certain guns are available. It's not optional. It's not "a mechanic that helps". Guards in Far Cry have an insane line of sight. If you are standing in plain view, not crouched, obscured, or hidden they WILL see you. They have absurd vision and can often see you before you can see them: if this happens you will instantly die before you can react. If briefly run out of cover and dive back in they will alert every guard within a 2 mile radius and will begin trying to flush you out. If they suspect you are in an area, say through hearing gun fire, getting a glimpse of you, or using some trick like throwing rock to make them investigate than they will began search for you.

Half the time it's better to just avoid engaging the guards entirly which might mean taking a 10 minute long trek through a more wooded area just to avoid having 30 dudes at the base decide hunt you down to the ends of the earth.

It's not about just approaching the guards from the right angle with the right weapon. It's about if the guard see's you: you are already dead.

[Anonymous No.4592151]

>>4592102
Since when has wikipedia's sections on games been anything but laughable.

[Anonymous No.4592193]

>>4592148
>Theortical and "part of the normal play" are very different. It is theortically possible to beat Contra with almost no kills and avoiding the enemies, but we wouldn't say it's a game about running away from enemies.
What's the point of saying this when it's also the case for MGS and Far Cry?

> It's not something you do only on certain missions or only when certain guns are available. It's not optional. It's not "a mechanic that helps".
It's not optional in Goldeneye either unless you are absurdly good at exploiting the game mechanics. Which I suspect is the case in pretty much every stealth game.

>Guards in Far Cry have an insane line of sight. If you are standing in plain view, not crouched, obscured, or hidden they WILL see you. They have absurd vision and can often see you before you can see them: if this happens you will instantly die before you can react. If briefly run out of cover and dive back in they will alert every guard within a 2 mile radius and will begin trying to flush you out.
Now I will admit that I haven't played Far Cry 1 since I completed it in 2004, but I don't remember there being too much focus on stealth. I thought you could just gun down people for the most part and lean on Quick Save if there's trouble.

>It's about if the guard see's you: you are already dead.
I definitely don't remember this.

>>4592151
It's just that if it were as important to the game as the guy is making it, it should have got one mention in the gameplay section. But my memory is admittedly rusty when it comes to the game. Though I did beat it at one point.

[Anonymous No.4592219]

>>4592193
>I thought you could just gun down people for the most part and lean on Quick Save if there's trouble.

There is no quicksave.

My experiences with Far Cry are on it's realistic settting.

>It's not optional in Goldeneye either unless you are absurdly good at exploiting the game mechanics.
I played GE recently, pretty sure on the highest difficulty. I don't think stealth even exists in the first mission, except the very crude 'engaging an enemy from the right direction' stealth that's in Wolfenstein.

In contrast with Far Cry the first level cannot be completed without heavy use of stealth. This is a difference between a stealth game a game that merely has it on the side.

Treating wikipedia as a source for anything authoritative on games other than very empirical details, such as the release date is just horrible.

[Anonymous No.4592261]

>>4592219
>My experiences with Far Cry are on it's realistic settting.
I'm struggling to see where the stealth is in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zHZDHmyBag

Only thing I see that remotely resembles it is using the binoculars to ensure you aren't ambushed by guards. But that's not really stealth, per se. I mean you'd have to be using the knife to stealth, otherwise enemies would be hearing you going guns blazing. But I don't see that in here either.

> I don't think stealth even exists in the first mission
The first level involves less stealth than the second, but you can't say that I mean there are alarm triggering guards in that level. Hell, one of the objectives is to destroy the alarms. How did you not remember that?

>except the very crude 'engaging an enemy from the right direction' stealth that's in Wolfenstein.
We've been over this. In Goldeneye if you go guns blazing, you'll 10 guards on you in a few seconds. Not a problem on Agent. But a big problem on 00 Agent.

From what I've seen of the Far Cry footage, it's that game which has the Wolf 3D line of sight problem. The stealth from that game on realistic comes from the fact that enemies will hitscan kill you from their crazy high difficulty damage if you don't shoot them out of their range, or LOS them.

But I think this is all besides the point about what is or isn't required to beat the game. You need to articulate what kind of stealth mechanical enhancements are in Far Cry as compared to Goldeneye.

[Anonymous No.4592263]

Also, here's a comment from that Youtube video on Far Cry.

>Doing a realistic run is, more than anything, a test of patience. I started a realistic run a while ago, but I just couldn't be bothered to finish it on that setting. You're pretty much forced to crawl through the entire game and abuse the visibility mechanics (bushes) to pick off the guards. If you want a challenging setting that still allows you to actually play the game, try "veteran" (2nd highest), that's what I usually do.

>abuse the visibility mechanics
Talk about the kettle calling the pot black.

[Anonymous No.4592307]

>>4592261
Far Cry, played very well is about finding the right spot where you can shoot at the guards but they won't find you: even once they notice the dead bodies or hear the gun fire their search efforts will find no trace of you. In short it's stealth because the object is to not be seen.

Sometimes it's faster and safer to just sneak by them. There's monster enemies which are about direct engagements, they are like quake enemies where they are very fast, have no hitscan, and a ton of hp. There's a few corridor levels which is like Golden Eye levels but without infinite spawns. These are points where the 'stealth' is really just about engaging them from the right angle and at the right time.


>>4592263
Playing with the enemie's visibility (and hearing) mechanics is pretty much what stealth mechanics are all about. Golden Eye guards this is less importaint because
a) since the game is nothing but corridors it's not like you actually have to worry about getting spotted or scouting things out. The fact that guars are never very far out of range basically means 'stealth' is basically just about approach.
b) guards have a delay before they shoot and always miss their first shot so you have a linency even if the guard knows you are there. Far Cry guards rarely miss and respond instantly.

So it makes sense to call Far Cry a stealth game because you simply can't survive being seen. While in Golden Eye you can, in fact it's going to be your approach to most enemies. These are totally different designs.

The guy is right about Realistic being nuts. It's the most brutal non-shooting gallery FPS ever made.

[Anonymous No.4592326]

>>4592307
>In short it's stealth because the object is to not be seen.
In one sense, yes. But not in another. It's just the old line-of-sight thing taken to absurdity by giving enemies god-like accuracy and damage. There aren't any actual special stealth mechanics from what I'm gleaming from you. It's just you can't survive being shot at.

I think when talking about first person stealth games, it's best to compare them to Thief, since that is THE prototypical first person stealth game. If a game's stealth resembles Thief, then it's a stealthy game. In my view, Goldeneye easily wins this comparison.

>a) since the game is nothing but corridors
You haven't been lying about playing the game, have you?

>b) guards have a delay before they shoot and always miss their first shot
They don't always miss their first shot. What they do is their first shot is slightly aimless. This means that an encounter with one guard isn't too bad, but an encounter with several (like in a stealth failure) is potentially fatal because somebody's going to hit something, and they never all shoot toward the same place.

The difference here is that Goldeneye has actual stealth mechanics that become more and more important as you slide the difficulty scale up. Far Cry doesn't have any focus on stealth mechanics, but as the difficulty goes up, you just need to get better at the Wolf3D style LOS business.

If I'm to be honest, I kind of think it's a bit shitty you dragged in a non-/vr/ game into this, but whatever.

[Anonymous No.4592365]

>>4592326
From what I have replayed of the game Surface is the only non-corridor level. So it stands that the game is basically almost entirly corridors. Don't do this retard shit where you pull up one exception and go 'gatcha'.

>The difference here is that Goldeneye has actual stealth mechanics that become more and more important as you slide the difficulty scale up. Far Cry doesn't have any focus on stealth mechanics,

Stealth mechanics in Far Cry:
*crouching
*going prone
*being able to throw a rock which creates a sound enemies will want to investigate
*night vision
*enemies with actual cameflauge and terrain that makes it easy for both you and them to blind in
*enemies have variable levels of alertness (patrol, investigate, chase)
*variable noise and vision that alerts enemies (much more advanced than golden eye. Cover is more dynamic and so is sound. Can use shadow, dive under water )
*alarms

Stealth mechanics in golden eye
*crouching (which almost never matters so it hardly counts)
*variable noise and vision, primitive
*two alert levels: patrol and chase
*alarms

stealth mechanics in wolfenstein
*variable noise and vision, even more primitive
*two alert levels: stand completly motionless and chase

Do you see how fucking little of a stealth game Golden Eye actually is? In majority of stages the stealth is barely above Wolfenstein. If we're going to say Golden Eye is a stealth game than every FPS ever made is a stealth game.

But you're such a fucking evangelist you want to say the game is some sort of special stealth innovator, or invented the set piece, or some other stupid fucking nonse. A decade or so ago Golden Eye evangelists were trying to say it was some important, innovative multiplayer experience. That's the root of all your arguing to try to give a relatively minor all the laurels you can manage. And to that you're willing to say the most retarded shit possible and downright LIE.

It's late. I need to sleep.

[Anonymous No.4592390]

>>4592365
Forget to mention.

Approaching an enemy and throwing a knife or using the silenced pistol is a hell of a let less stealthy or waiting a few second for the enemy patrol to reach favorable position before engaging than.

>treking 10 minutes through the jungle to avoid the line of sight of enemy watch tower
>slowly crawling forward to the ideal sniping point and taking out the whole camp without them noticing
>swimming up the creep and sneaking through the camp without alerting the guards

[Anonymous No.4592434]

>>4592365
>From what I have replayed of the game Surface is the only non-corridor level.
There's also Runway, and that one comes up in the game before Surface but whatever :)


>*crouching
>*going prone
>*night vision
>*enemies with actual cameflauge and terrain that makes it easy for both you and them to blind in
Talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel when coming up with stealth mechanics to list.

>*being able to throw a rock which creates a sound enemies will want to investigate
How is this different from shooting a bullet from a stealth gun into a metal surface?

>*enemies have variable levels of alertness (patrol, investigate, chase)
Goldeneye guards also do investigations of sorts. You can see it at the end of this webm. Conveniently not listed by you.

There's no denying the enemies in Far Cry are smarter, but a good stealth game has both the player and the enemies as gimped (though the enemies are greater in number). A game where both player and enemies are overpowered isn't a stealth game, despite the fact that you have to do a lot of hiding. It's just a shittier version of ARMA.

>>4592390
Honestly, who would do this for fun? You turn any game into a stealth game by ramping up player vulnerability to max.

That isn't a stealth game. It's forced hiding through absurd hitscan bullshit. I thought this Far Cry argument was going somewhere at one stage, but it's actually pathetic that you presented this as an argument. And your strawman comparisons between Wolf3D and Goldeneye don't help either.

[Anonymous No.4592448]

Goldeneye is fun, dunno why people here try so hard to deny it is a good game.

[Anonymous No.4592484]

>>4592448
Mustards. Because FPS is one of the few genres which is typically much better on PC, they get very defensive when an actual good console FPS shows up. It disrupts their hierarchical thinking. Not only are PC shooters supposed to be the best, but they are also supposed to be the most influential. Always. They then get themselves into contortions trying to 'explain away' challengers to this thinking.

[Anonymous No.4592546]

>>4592484
>when an actual good console FPS
Still waiting for that day.

[Anonymous No.4592569]

>>4592546

[Anonymous No.4592638]

>>4591908
>Here come the strawmans again, lmao
Exact quote
"Counter-Strike started out as an attempt to bring the Goldeneye experience to the Half-Life engine."

[Anonymous No.4592664]

>>4592448
mainly because it's not, and it was shit compared to almost any fps on pc at the time, and these confused tryhards think that goldeneye somehow invented the fps or something, and every single point they've tried to make about how "innovative" it was got shot down by people who actually know something about the history of gaming, so they move the goalposts, redefine every term they tried to use, and then call anyone who disagrees with them a "strawman" as if that makes them sound smart somehow

[Anonymous No.4592703]

>>4592664
It's ok you hate goldeneye, but there's a lot of people that love the game.
I prefer doom-style FPS, but Goldeneye (and Perfect Dark) are damn good.

[Anonymous No.4593035]

>>4592703

i'm not saying i hate the game, it's just sad to see so many people trying to give it undue credit and claiming it "invented" the fps genre, when literally every feature they mentioned to back up their arguments had been done in previous games, so they started the straw-grasping with acrobatic feats such as "GE invented set pieces" or "GE invented difficulty levels" or "GE invented stealth" or "half-life was totally remade from scratch after they saw how amazing GE was"... it's hard to understand what point they're even trying to make when they get that far removed from reality

[Anonymous No.4593401]

The game was originally intended to look like Virtua Cop so it could be easy to play with a joystick
>GoldenEye 007: Game Design Document (By Martin Hollis - April 1995)
>Control of the gun is crucial, so the joystick will be used to aim the gun, the joy-pad trhigger or a key-pad button will be used to fire, and movement will be on the remaining controls. It may be possible to have movement partly automatic, or on the keypad, or perhaps controled together with the gun. Similarly the view may be controlled by the user, or it may be possible to enhace this control automatically. Virtua Cop is good in this respect, having very natural, totally automatic camera panning and rooming. The view should normally include all threatening characters, to avoid being unexpectedly shot in the back. The exact control system cannot be chosen until the joy-pad shape is finalized.

[Anonymous No.4593452]

Dear OP,

Anon here,

I'm pushing 30, was alive when this came out, and had a N64 at launch. Don't let anyone on /vr/ or /v/ fool you into thinking this game is good or important. The most groundbreaking and influential feature of this game is, get this, mission objectives other than just beating the level.

Just play Thief and Thief 2 on PC instead, the objectives are better, the levels are better, the controls are better, and you don't have to play a game on one of the shittiest misguided pieces of fucking terrible gaming hardware to ever be released.

Seriously though, we're talking about a system that had a texture memory limit of 4kb in 1996, it's objectively fucking bad at game's that utilize textures, to the point that every part of a characters body gets its own cartoon-stamp textures in all the good games on the console that you should actually play. Goldeneye isn't one of them. Faces look worse than MGS1. You can't move and shoot despite it being a staple feature of even FPS games on SNES and Mega Drive.

[Anonymous No.4593527]

>>4593452
Goldeneye was the best compared to games at that time. Try naming one game launched before Goldeneye that was better. The only game I could ever compare to Goldeneye at that time was Turok, it had better lighting effects, guns to choose, artificial intelligence, more enemies designs (some got invisibility), and it was still underrated. At least Turok got remastered to play on PC and better adapted to play with a mouse and kb

Thief was released one year after. Half-Life two years after and it was better than both. The PC had better games each year due to hardware upgrades not game designing.

[Anonymous No.4593541]

>>4593452
>You can't move and shoot

Yes you can, rebind the controls

[Anonymous No.4593569]

>>4593035
>it's hard to understand what point they're even trying to make when they get that far removed from reality

I'll agree it's kind of overrated now, but do you remember how epic it was to play multiplayer with 3-4 people when it came out? My cousins and I probably put 500 hours into multiplayer. The mines were an art in and of themselves. Yeah, there was multiplayer and fps and pretty much everything at that point, but this was on a console, not a pc. It was revolutionary at the time, even though it didn't invent the genre or the conventions of the genre it still was crazy fun.

I don't argue that it's so overblown now, but at the time there wasn't really any experience like it on any console.

[Anonymous No.4593571]

>>4593452
This post nails it. The fact that it's innovations were minor. The absolute hideously ugly nature of the game. The it isn't even a very good game.

Than you've got retards that just want to nitpick like this >>4593541 who probably religiously worship this 6/10 game

[Anonymous No.4593580]

>>4593527
Turok was the first game I remember having dramatic multiple death animations too

[Anonymous No.4593586]

>>4593569
This kind of gets it. Golden Eye was engaging from the perspective of console players who simply had never experienced anything like it. Holding it up as big FPS from a historical point of view would be as silly as saying Jazz Jack Rabbit is one of the best platformers ever made, simply because for someone who only owned a PC and never played console platformers it probably was.

[Anonymous No.4593591]

Every fucking time with GE/PD threads... The N64 and its library is the most divisive subject on this board and I just can't understand why. Why is it not acceptable to enjoy the N64 and its games at the same time as enjoying Quake or the Playstation?

[Anonymous No.4593598]

>>4593591
No one is saying you can't enjoy games, that's something you made up.

[Anonymous No.4593604]

>>4593586
>olding it up as big FPS from a historical point of view would be as silly

It came a year before HL and was more sophisticated than quake

checkmate atheists

[Anonymous No.4593609]

>>4593604
It had a more advanced objective system. That's really it's most impressive feature, hardly a mile stone. It's also not a very good game on account of everything on the screen being hideous and involving the use of a horrible controller. It's a game that was very beloved by console players who simply had no other experiences like it.

[Anonymous No.4593613]

>>4593591
Because these threads are never about how much people enjoyed the game, it's always about whether it's the innovator of stealth or the proto-Thief or pre-emptive justifications from jerks who weren't alive at the time as to why it's some super influential FPS despite there being objectively better games in terms of design or multiplayer.
Plus some people really hate the N64 for reasons that range from logical to stupid.

[Anonymous No.4593638]

>>4593571
Saying "You can't move and shoot" more or less immediately disqualifies any opinions he may have of it.

[Anonymous No.4593643]

>>4593638
So the guy comes up with points you cannot and do not want to challenge (for instance there is no way you can deny the game is hideous). Than you nitpick out one thing he got wrong and use that as excuse to just ignore everything else and tell everyone else to follow suit.

You have no regard for actual discussion of the points and don't want to concede to any points that would diminish the game, even if the points are true. So you resort to this sewage like way of responding.

[Anonymous No.4593669]

>>4591802
>Half Life
Yeah, half life truly invented first person storytelling. You stumble through scenes that look like they came out of a storyboard.

[Anonymous No.4593672]

>>4589482
>>4589509
>>4589531
>"if you list an FPS with two of these four features you win the argument"
>is given an FPS with examples of several similar features
>accepts answer
>takes it back and continues to type up another 40 posts worth of arguments

[Anonymous No.4593742]

>>4593672
I'm 'surprised' guy, but I'm actually not the dude who's super hardline autistic about Goldeneye being this radical departure from everything before.

I do feel that Goldeneye's merits are unfairly downplayed by the mustard crowd, and that it was a genuinely innovative game in its design and execution that holds up well, but I've seen conversations like this before and in none of them was Strife brought up. Instead, the best I saw was "enemies had line of sight and there were invisibility powerups that sort of counted as stealth", ignoring that nothing mentioned resulted in the relatively involved stealth gameplay that Goldeneye developed.

>>4592365
>>4592434
To further up the discussion here, Goldeneye's enemies do actually react to a sound from an unknown source by specifically investigating the spot that the sound originated from, and this is a crucial strategic element when playing on 007 Agent difficulties (the special ones that let you make enemies into instakill death machines) that meaningfully changes how many levels can be run. The total combination of things like this, the need to setup headshots, sneak up behind enemies and melee them, etc. really makes the game's combination of stealth and run and gun elements significant and it's hardly a leap to conjecture that other specific developers were influenced by this.

However, I really was not aware of Strife, and I have no idea why I'd never heard it mentioned before in this context.

[Anonymous No.4593765]

Why are people arguing about Goldeneye being revolutionary or not? I just asked if the mouse+keyboard config was good for the game because I thought the game would become too easy thanks to mouse aiming, but some anon said about the 007 mode (which I forgoy) to increase the difficulty if the game feels too easy. Hell I was playing PD and I was impressed I still had a tough time with some levels.
I like old-school FPS (Doom, Duke3D, Quake, etc..) more for their movement and crazy action, but I think both GE and PD are fantastic games too.

[Anonymous No.4593775]

>>4593765
Perfect Dark and 007 feel like adventure games at times. The laptop gun was so cool, seeing through walls was cool, and so on. The mechanics of these games go beyond just the shooting and I love that.

[Anonymous No.4593780]

>>4593775
[...]
I guess what I like about these games is that they really make you feel like a secret agent, providing you with all sorts of gadgets like remote bombs and so on, or making you point a gun at someone to intimidate them into giving you a code, that stuff is all really cool. It's not just shooting. It's an adventure.

[Anonymous No.4593785]

>>4593742
>The total combination of things like this, the need to setup headshots, sneak up behind enemies and melee them, etc.
I remember once I was playing going trough the air ducts till I get to a restroom right above a soldier while he was shitting and got the silenced pistol aimed at his head and the bullet got in his hat and flies away while the soldier hardly noticed. The PS fan friend I had at the time was impressed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcfZUDkyH1w

[Anonymous No.4594061]

>>4593765
I gave you an actual response here amidst all the autism and sperging:
>>4591668

[Anonymous No.4594191]

>>4593569

i couldn't stand multiplayer split screen on consoles, i was spoiled when i was a kid because my father was a computer engineer and i was lucky enough to have multiple gaming PCs and a LAN set up in my home in the mid 90's, so i was playing much better games in a much better multiplayer environment long before goldenaxe came out. hell my friends would bring their N64's over and not even want to hook them up to the tv once they saw me playing 32 player games on quakeworld.

if your argument is that goldenaxe was an important step forward for consoles, then yeah maybe, but the OP was attempting to suggest that somehow it revolutionized the fps and was somehow influencial on PC games and invented a bunch of gameplay features that didn't exist before it, which this thread has repeatedly proven is not the case

[Anonymous No.4594195]

>>4593604
>It came a year before HL and was more sophisticated than quake

6 months actually, nowhere even remotely close to a dev cycle. in what way was it more "sophisticated" than quake? worse graphics, lower skill ceiling, worse controls, extremely limited multiplayer.... "but muh mission objectives" yeah wow so you're given a "reason" for collecting items (keys) and pushing buttons (pushing buttons) as if those things didn't already exist in literally every fps at the time

[Anonymous No.4594198]

>>4594195
yeah but shit like pointing your gun at civilians prevents them from tripping security

[Anonymous No.4594225]

>>4594198

ok yeah that was probably a first for the fps genre, but was yet another feature originally found in Out Of This World (1991) which of course was hugely influencial on a wide variety of genres and games, especially MGS and half life. i remember being stuck for over a month at the part where you have to point your gun at the guard but not shoot him. i couldn't figure out where to go after that haha

[Anonymous No.4594381]

>>4594061
Thanks for this, I started playing GE now after testing PD, and I'm really enjoying the game.
btw, the latest build of 1964 doesn't require the mouse injector since it's now build with the control plugin, wish this works later with the other games (TWINE, Turok3, etc..)

[Anonymous No.4594406]

>>4592448

I dunno if you've noticed, but overbearing tryhard contrarianism is pretty big on the internet

[Anonymous No.4594415]

>>4579539

[Anonymous No.4594785]

>>4580128
I do not fucking understand retards who use the dpad setup. Just use the fucking c-buttons to move, holy fuck.

[Anonymous No.4596196]

>>4591681
32 players, all alone.

[Anonymous No.4596208]

>>4591681
Is much better to play N64 with friends at your home than PC online with anonymous fags. The only way we could get a better experience than 4 players sharing the same screen was playing in a Cyber Cafe.

[Anonymous No.4596242]

[Tutorial] How to run goldfinger 64 on emu with 60 fps mouse look - EXTRA PATCH IN DESC FOR 00 AGENT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gzI-P_8ToY

[Anonymous No.4596641]

Is there any hack to play other FPS's besides GE and PD. I want to play other 64 FPS games with the mouse. Is N-Rage the only way to do it?

[Anonymous No.4596652]

>>4591681
You fucking idiot, only filthy casual players running around like headless chickens liked quake with 16-32 players. 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4 are the standard way to play TDM or other team games in Quake. Nobody plays FFA seriously.

>There's no objective reason you can give that GoldenEye is a better experience than this.

How retarded are you? Of course there's no "objective" reason you can give for it, there's no "objective" reason for saying Super Mario 64 is better than ET but everyone believes it is.

>>4591681
>Now imagine going from 16 player Quake or 32 player Linewars to GoldenEye years after those games came out; it tends to colour your opinion of the multiplayer aspect.

Again, you are showing how little clue you have of any of these games. 16-32 players is a gimmick for pub servers, nobody takes that shit seriously. You were the only person there thinking "oh man, 24 players so cool, I can't even spawn without getting killed". Duel is the most respected game format in Quake and only two players play.

I have played tons of games with lots of players in them and keep going back to Goldeneye every time.

[Anonymous No.4596704]

>>4593541
You don't have to rebind the controls. You can move and shoot with any control scheme. Either that guy is trolling or there's something wrong with him.

[Anonymous No.4596716]

>>4596704
You can't use cross hair to aim while you move but can move and shoot with no cross hair if you are close enough from the target

[Anonymous No.4596721]

>>4596641
for what it's worth, almost all of the other good ones have PC ports

[Anonymous No.4596735]

>>4596716
Sure but cross hair isn't that useful, it doesn't help very much. You can shoot on cradle and aztec from really far away and hit them without the crosshair. I've heard of the occasional speedrunner putting a tiny piece of plasticine on their tvs as a crosshair, but that's for competitive play and even then it's not that valuable. You do need to stop and use the crosshair however to zoom in, which is obviously intentional and imo a fair mechanic.

[Anonymous No.4597901]

>>4578987
goldeneye is a shitty singleplayer game regardless of control

[Anonymous No.4598989]

>>4596652
>I have played tons of games with lots of players in them and keep going back to Goldeneye every time.
How are you playing it?

[Anonymous No.4599039]

>>4598989
Mostly actual hardware.

[Anonymous No.4599049]

>>4582874
pierced the buns?