/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.4570315]

what's a JRPG that a 30 years old can like?

[Anonymous No.4570320]

Wizardry IV it's very comfy.

[Anonymous No.4570332]

>>4570320
it looks a bit too comfy desu

[Anonymous No.4570337]

probably a western jrpg like anachronox. that's not retro though.

[Anonymous No.4570339]

>>4570332
Don't worry. Hell be fine.

[Anonymous No.4571613]

>>4570339

[Anonymous No.4571653]

Dragon Quest 3 release date in Japan is 1988 2 10 so it will be 30 in 3 days.

[Anonymous No.4571657]

>>4571653
30 years of ruining the industry. Thanks a lot, Dragon Quest.

[Anonymous No.4571707]

>>4571657
>games I don't like are popular so they ruined things

30 year old children everywhere

[Anonymous No.4571749]

>>4571657
Dragon Quest did ruin the industry but in a more indirect way. The games that you truly want to blame for fucking up the industry are some later ones that were inspired by it, like FFVII.
If none of those was created and we were left with only the Dragon Quest series then nothing would have been ruined worldwide really.

[Anonymous No.4571750]

>>4571707
>casual as fuck mash A to win RPG with cringe worthy anime story
>not ruining the industry

[Anonymous No.4571754]

>>4570315
The ones on the right side

[Anonymous No.4571785]

>>4571754
>BOF

[Anonymous No.4571791]

>>4571754
>literally redd it

[Anonymous No.4571951]

>>4571754
>/v/
>not liking .hack
obviously satire

[Anonymous No.4572052]

>>4571951
.hack is boring.

[Anonymous No.4572058]

>>4571754
Why is FF entry level but not DQ?

[Anonymous No.4572113]

>>4572058
Not as popular in the west. It's a silly pic anyway

[Anonymous No.4572118]

Final Fantasy 2

[Anonymous No.4572147]

>>4570339
I just want to say this, FUCK YOU HAWKWIND YOU PIECE OF SHIT SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE AND FUCK YOUR DRAGONS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
And don't even try to mention dinks becouse I'll fucking kill myself.

[Anonymous No.4572149]

>>4570315
Go with the Front Mission series. It's a great war story.

[Anonymous No.4572210]

the star ocean games that are /vr/ happen to be the only good ones, so maybe that

well, the PSP port of 2/remake of 1 are also p good too

[Anonymous No.4572340]

>>4571754
>made this years ago to piss off /v/ and /vg/'s JRPG General
>people are still posting it and taking it seriously

Warms my heart.

[Anonymous No.4572451]

>>4570315

Vandal Hearts 1 & 2.

[Anonymous No.4572503]

>>4572340
which ones do you actually like

[Anonymous No.4572548]

>>4572340
Keep up the good work

[Anonymous No.4572560]

>>4572548
>JRPG
>No phantasy star
>Under dangerously Otaku
wtf...

[Anonymous No.4572573]

>>4572548
wrpgfag here
why dark souls in jrpg ?

[Anonymous No.4572583]

>>4572548
Why is drakengard weeabo, it's anti weebo if anything

[Anonymous No.4572590]

>>4572548
Over the years I played almost everything from this list with the exception of the trash ranked games minus a few of the Atelier games(which shoudn't be trash btw as some of the games are really good)

[Anonymous No.4572754]

>>4571750
So again, an industry is only good if it caters to your tastes. The attitude of a spoiled child.

[Anonymous No.4573845]

>>4572548
>panzer dragoon
mhh

[Anonymous No.4573847]

>>4570315
boku no pico

[Anonymous No.4573849]

>>4570315
The more they try to not be serious or teen drama the better a mature person can have fun.

Dragon Quest 4-6 or 5 if you want the best of the bunch on DS are pretty much perfect.

Specially 5 it's short and fun.

8 is good but if you stumble on distributing points to the wrong weapons you going to have a seriously bad time against dhoulmagus segment and will make the game really long with excruciating grinding sections.

9 is a bizarre game.

[Anonymous No.4573850]

>>4571754
Disgaea being rulled as simple weaboo shit is cringe.

[Anonymous No.4573863]

>>4573849
what about 7

[Anonymous No.4573927]

>>4573863
7 is pretty good on the 3ds, don't know why it wasn't cited

[Anonymous No.4574692]

>>4570315
Shin megami tensai: Lucifers call

[Anonymous No.4574703]

>>4570315
if you like jrpgs probably any. you're not so young that you can't understand the mechanics and dialogue nor you're a teen trying to overcompensate not being an adult with blood, gore and edgyness

[Anonymous No.4574718]

>>4574692
Megumi, anon

[Karakasa-Obake !!bwTnifX4END No.4574846]

If you want comfy nostalgia of being a kid the obvious answer is earthbound.

If you want strategy shining force 3 (all 3 scenarios have been translated). It has a decently involved story. Other strategy, tactics ogre, FFT.

Jrpg isn't really my thing but the above are pretty fun.

>>4572451
I'll second this.

[Anonymous No.4574856]

>>4570315
.hack infection
suikoden 2

[Anonymous No.4574883]

All pre-Persona 3 SMT games. Bonus points if they're flat out first person dungeon crawl. Fun morality and not for bitches.
Lufia 2 is an rpg about marriage and men being men. Low on teenage fuccbois and fun as hell dungeoning/Ancient Cave.
Bahamut Lagoon surprised me that the hero's motivation and belief he's doing the right thing is fucking crushed, several times. Very FF6-feeling and does a tragic love story without overromanticising it.
7th Saga/Mystic Ark cus they don't take you for an idiot and will kick your ass.
Brandish/2 are definitely the thinking man's ARPGs, as is Brain Lord.
Front Mission has a very hardboiled real robot atmosphere without bright colors and animeness, and lots of customisation. Gun Hazard keeps this up too but it's not half as rpg.
Mech show nostalgics might like SRW games, as well as the numerous SNES Gundam SRPGs based in the classic timeline.

[Anonymous No.4574925]

>>4571754
All of the games on the weeaboo list are Japanese i.e. not weeaboo. And no they aren't made for weeaboos either.

The weeaboo mass psychosis on 4chan is probably never goin away.

[Anonymous No.4575374]

>>4572548
This is b8. Not even a SaGa game on there.

Plus, Golden Sun is the most casual jRPG ever. Everyone had that shit on GBA.

[Anonymous No.4575537]

>>4574883
Persona 3 is a far better game than 2.

[Anonymous No.4575550]

>>4575374
Why are saga fans so dumb that they reply to every single obvious bait image? Or is it just the same person every time?

[Anonymous No.4576138]

>>4575537
I thought that was a light novel in digital format

[Anonymous No.4576153]

>>4575550
>Why are saga fans so dumb that they reply to every single obvious bait image?
I think it's just one anon who keeps sperging out. Although there does seem to be something about the series that attracts autists.

[Anonymous No.4576185]

>>4576138
Better than offending demons with motorcycle noises and breaking contracts because tits RNG fuck you.

Not only offer a better challenge but it also has a better battle system by default as it isn't a poor man exploitable dragon quest like Persona 2.

Persona 1 is the only old persona that worth a shit.

[Anonymous No.4576192]

>>4570315
JRPG ARE FOR FAGgOT WEEBS I OnLY PlAY TRUE GAMEr GAMeS MaDE FOR TRUE GAMEr LIKE vERtICAL SHOOTEr YOU FUcKiNG KEK SOy BoY nUMaLe

[Anonymous No.4576194]

>>4576185
Oh, so that light novel has some game parts where you only get to control the main character in battle? Cool, I guess.

[Anonymous No.4576197]

4576192
Try harder to falseflag next time, anti-arcade shitposter.

[Anonymous No.4576241]

>>4576194
If you want direct commands play Portable.

And you can narrow down the party commands with orders not to mention you can always override their action with attack using triangle.

Not to mention the MC is all that matters on fights the allies are just to give a small help.

IS is more light novel than P3 as difficulty in combat is inexistent and this is a plus over EP as the combat mechanics are garbage.

[Anonymous No.4576256]

>>4576197
WAHT DAIARHEA DODSIHT COWABINGA SIT GAMER GaME HRADCORE XEBIOUS LE NiMAlE

[Anonymous No.4576259]

>>4576256
Go back to your shitty muh secrets with rewards waifu pic thread

[Anonymous No.4576281]

>>4576259
GO BACK FAGGOD BATSUGAN THREAD DOGSHIT TURD BURGLING SHMUP GAMER FAGGOT

[Anonymous No.4577030]

is the mother series really not a waste of time?

[Anonymous No.4577039]

>>4577030
the 3rd one is okay, the first two are nothing special

[Anonymous No.4577049]

>>4570339
Every time I read this it's a fucking nightmare.

[Anonymous No.4577115]

>>4577039
what about chrono trigger?

[Anonymous No.4577125]

>>4574883
>as well as the numerous SNES Gundam SRPGs based in the classic timeline.
http://www.romhacking.net/?page=translations&genre=&platform=&status=&languageid=12&perpage=20&title=gundam&author=&transsearch=Go

I didn't realize a bunch of these had translation patches. Shit looks sick

[Anonymous No.4577807]

>>4577115
Chrono Trigger is great. Great atmosphere and sound design. Solid story considering the competition within the genre.

[Anonymous No.4577858]

>>4571754
>>4572548
How many people that praise Dark Cloud to the skies actually played it? Because it's an objectively dog shit game with terrible controls and camera. I'm not saying that to be contrarian either, I literally mean it does nothing well besides the town building and weapon crafting. That being said I haven't played the sequel.

[Anonymous No.4577882]

>>4572548
Here I fixed that for you.

[Anonymous No.4578039]

>>4577030
The first one's not worth playing, (does have a few good moments though) Earthbound/Mother 3 are both pretty cool but for different reasons. Try 'em out. Earthbound's a bit rough until you get your second party member though.

[Anonymous No.4578045]

>>4572058
Normies don't have time to grind

[Anonymous No.4578198]

>>4578045
But normies are progressfags, anon.
Maybe they don't have time to waste hours on the same day, but it's all they do when they play games. Either that or cinematic stuff.

[Anonymous No.4578201]

>>4578198
Oh it's the progress systems retard

[Anonymous No.4578209]

>>4570315
Persona 2 Innocent Sin/Eternal Punishment
especially EP.

[Anonymous No.4578936]

>>4571750
buzzwords everywhere

[Anonymous No.4578950]

Super Robot Wars series appeals mainly to people who are 30 or older.
The thing is, not many of them are translated.

[Anonymous No.4578958]

>>4578209
is EP the one where the characters are all weird adults?

[Anonymous No.4579036]

>>4578201
Oh it's the easily triggered progressfag

[Anonymous No.4579073]

>>4578209
NO.

P1 PSP or P3 onwards or PS2/3/DS library of SMT.

The gameplay of 2 is total trash, compared to every single SMT and JRPGs in general.

[Anonymous No.4579224]

>>4572548
>game made by an american is a "japanese game"

[Anonymous No.4579380]

>>4573849
>DS
No. No. No. No. The translations on the DS ports are utterly abhorrent.

[Anonymous No.4579418]

>>4577858
You're not wrong, but remember that Dark Cloud was a very early PS2 title from a newly-formed and inexperienced studio. The basic gameplay systems are solid, but everything else--controls, camera, graphics, pacing--are rough.

Dark Chronicle was a huuuge step up, and demonstrated that Level-5 had a very bright future ahead.

[Anonymous No.4580747]

>>4571754
Not a jrpg specialist here, but how are Dragon quest(the repetetive grindfest) and suikoden(nothing to do) the best games?

[Anonymous No.4580754]

>>4580747
>suikoden(nothing to do)
did you somehow miss the 108 characters and expanding your castle?

[Anonymous No.4580792]

>>4580754
>did you somehow miss the 108 characters and expanding your castle?
No, I completed it 100% with resurecting respective characters, but it was boring. I played Suikoden 1 and 2 some time ago. 2 was good, but wouldnt say the gameplay was engaging.

[Anonymous No.4581135]

>>4580792
>2 was good, but wouldnt say the gameplay was engaging.

>the game was good, but wouldn't say the game was good

[Anonymous No.4581158]

>>4579380
Far better than machine translations with setences outright removed as they are untranslatable.

And you will be giving up the best mechanically games that faster and better to play all arround because "muh text DQ Translations S2".

[Anonymous No.4581180]

>>4581135
what can I say, I liked the tear jerking story

[Anonymous No.4581242]

>>4581180
>>>/v/
>>>/lit/
>>>/tv/
>>>/co/
>>>/a/
Choose

[Anonymous No.4581254]

>>4571750
>cringy anime story
>first 3 games are "kill this bad dude please"
what the fuck

[Anonymous No.4581278]

>>4581135

Why are gameplayfags such brainlets? A game can have lackluster controls or bad level design or baffling enemy placement and still be a good game for other reasons.

>durr if your favorite aspect of the game is aesthetic you should just watch a movie instead!

If the game wasn't a game, but a movie, the experience would be completely different, and not necessarily better.

>I liked the movie's writing, not so much the art direction
>WELL WHY NOT JUST READ A BOOK THEN

[Anonymous No.4581294]

>>4581278
>gameplayfags
>Playing games for the game aspect
Wow, what an insult. If you really consider this pejorative then: >>4581242
>A game can have lackluster controls or bad level design or baffling enemy placement and still be a good game for other reasons.
Yes, please: >>4581242
>bringing up movies at all
So you're one of those /tv/ crossposters, huh. Makes sense.
>>>/tv/

[Anonymous No.4581298]

>>4581278
books actually are always better than movies though, the only reason to ever make a movie is if it's a musical. musicals are awesome. but if it's not a musical it would be much better as a book.

[Anonymous No.4581310]

>>4581278
i agree bad level design can sometimes be charming, but only if the game mechanics are good enough to carry it, like in Doom 2. There's no way lackluster controls are ever tolerable unless it's a turn-based game

[Anonymous No.4581318]

>>4581310
Unless you're a storyfag like that guy.

[Anonymous No.4581768]

>>4581294
>>4581298

What a retarded mentality. I assume you believe all narrative art should be reduced to a flowchart of events on a piece of paper, because everything else is fluff, and all games should be Space Invaders, because any more context or story than that is also fluff. It's such a childishly purist point of view that I assume you believe is very clever.

[Anonymous No.4581842]

>>4581768
>all games should be Space Invaders
Holy shit, you're retarded. Do you really think that games based on pure game mechanics peaked at SI?

THIS is our point:
Video games are a game mechanic-based medium, therefore what ultimately matters when determining if a game is good or is the quality of the game mechanics.
All the "fluff" you're mentioning can improve your experience in an already good game, but to say it can make the difference between a worse game with better aesthetics and a better game with worse aesthetics is just your typical modern gaymer crap.

And yes, playing a JRPG you don't like for dozens of hours just for muh story is indeed a mark of being a storyfag.

[Anonymous No.4581890]

>>4581842

>Video games are a game mechanic-based medium, therefore what ultimately matters when determining if a game is good or is the quality of the game mechanics.
>All the "fluff" you're mentioning can improve your experience in an already good game, but to say it can make the difference between a worse game with better aesthetics and a better game with worse aesthetics is just your typical modern gaymer crap.

A game's different elements interact to create a distinct whole, and what you're basically proposing is a consumer review-style approach to game criticism, where you rate aspects such as "graphics", "music", and "fun factor" on separate scales out of 10. I've always thought this was retarded, because these elements are not isolated from one another, and some games give much greater importance to one element than another. Sorry to bring up films again, but it would be like giving a film's writing, direction, soundtrack, acting, etc. separate scores.

Gameplay itself is a nebulous term that can split into a thousand different things. A game can have the tightest controls in the world but extremely tedious progression. A game can have an innovative progression system but sloppy controls. A game can have generally good design but random unwarranted difficulty spikes. None of this is modern "gaymer" crap, it's just how games are. And games like Silent Hill have controls and mechanics that directly interact with its aesthetic aspects because if Silent Hill weren't an atmospheric horror game many of its mechanics would come off as very different.

This is why treating gameplay like it's a scientifically accurate term that defines the quality of games beyond all doubt is stupid. Aesthetic considerations can also improve, enhance or change the experience of playing the game.

[Anonymous No.4581952]

>>4581890
>what you're basically proposing is a consumer review-style approach to game criticism, where you rate aspects such as "graphics", "music", and "fun factor" on separate scales out of 10

No. What I'm proposing is that game mechanics are the ONLY thing that really matter when determining the quality of a game. All the rest is just a tiny bonus that can never compensate worse mechanics compared to a better game that maybe had worse aesthetics.

And yes, they are isolated. In most cases the plot, visual aesthetics and soundtrack have absolutely nothing to do with the game mechanics. There are exceptions like rhythm games where the soundtracks matters, but you get me.
You can have an amazing game with crappy visuals, sound and plot. You can't have an amazing game with excellent plot, visuals and sound but crappy game mechanics.

Stop bringing up films, they are a passive non interactive medium and as such they can't be compared.

The fact that "game mechanics" are not just one thing doesn't mean they aren't the most important aspect. Player control and enemy design are two different things altogether, sure, but they are all inside the "game mechanics" general pool, and improving each would improve the game. No matter how much you improve the, say, soundtrack, the game mechanics will not improve.

The question people should ask when reviewing games is "Does it play well?". That's it, the rest is just either negligible stuff or modern gaymer crap.

[Anonymous No.4582007]

>>4581952
>The question people should ask when reviewing games is "Does it play well?". That's it, the rest is just either negligible stuff or modern gaymer crap.

This is a stupid, exaggerated reaction to the current wave of academic video game critique. Imagine a review of virtually any "classic" game that focuses 100% on the gameplay and doesn't even mention anything else. Said review also doesn't consider how the gameplay converses with other aspects of the game. "Your character's stiff and slow movement creates a mounting sense of tension and anxiety thanks to the horror atmosphere and sound design." You would not be able to say even something like that. "Your character controls stiffly and slowly because... they do, and this is good gameplay, according to me."

Again, your philosophy works for extremely simple games with highly abstracted presentations and virtually nothing else.

Not to mention that there really is no agreed-upon definition on what it means to "play well". Sure we all more or less agree on tight controls, reasonable difficulty curves, etc., but a lot of design philosophies that were popular 20 years ago are considered relics of technological limitations now. Few people would say that a password system is "better" than saves, who knows what we might be saying is "better" than our current trends 20 years from now.

[Anonymous No.4582037]

>>4582007
Well, it's not my fault that games journalism both sucks and has sucked. Weak argument here, buddy.
>Again, your philosophy works for extremely simple games with highly abstracted presentations and virtually nothing else.
So most old games? lol

Anyway, of course it's not something objective, reviews have a subjective component to them (the same happens when aesthetics and plot are reviewed btw, I don't know why you even bring this up). However, I just wish that they were focused on the game mechanics and whether the reviewers finds them good or not. That's it.

A summarized example:
Truxton. This game features sound enemy pattern design, with a unique emphasis on mid bosses. It's designed around going very fast and macrododging successfully. The blue powerup is an interesting and innovative shooting mechanic which works both as a spreading shot and a homing one. Instantaneous smart bombs are also groundbreaking.
Overall, one of the finest games.

Also, it features a nice soundtrack and the enemies are cool looking.


See what I mean?
Your typical review of an aestheticsfag / storyfag or whatever would be something more akin to this.
Truxton. While the game looks and sounds cool, it lacks a plot and therefore there's no motivation to see the ending. You also can't unlock stuff by playing so it has aged.

Also, the game has fun gameplay.

[Anonymous No.4582087]

>>4582037

I think the issue with your example is that Truxton is obviously a gameplay-focused game. You wouldn't be able to review a visual novel or even a survival horror game in the same manner. And even if you think strictly narrative genres like visual novels or whatever are trash, lots of games straddle the line between "narrative adventures" and "interactive playgrounds" or however you wanna call them.

In the end I don't think we're that different, and I agree that video game journalism is garbage, but I don't think a 100% purist approach where gameplay is the only thing that matters for every game, is the way to go. I just think some video game genres aren't for you.

[Anonymous No.4582236]

>>4577030
The first game is too rough around the edges to suggest someone play it. At most, I'd say that you should cheat your way through it. The second game has its charms, with the start being the toughest part, up until the end. The game was originally designed around you having two party members early on, but they cut one for data space purposes. If you get into it, I'd give the suggestion of filling your inventory with teddy bears fairly often, in order to avoid getting hit with bad status effects and to make standard combat easier.

[Anonymous No.4582475]

>>4570315
Tactics Ogre
Ogre Battle
Ogre Battle 64

[Anonymous No.4582881]

>>4582087
>I think the issue with your example is that Truxton is obviously a game
That's why I say stuff like that doesn't work for le modern gayming non-games crap. Not my fault those games are more like very lightly interactive movies or a progress system simulator.
For a visual novel, you'd review it like a book, not a game. Because that's what it mainly is, literature. CYOA. I think these are usually not very good, but by book standards, not game standards (because there isn't a game, really).
Survival horror is a game genre that focuses more on aesthetics, and one of the few examples when you can link aesthetics to game mechanics. However, stuff like Silent Hill (from 1999 btw) is very clearly an exception and definitely feels more into the modern gaming spectrum. I guess the fact that these games don't scare me at all makes me not get what you're saying and only judge how their mechanics work as a game, however.
For most old games (so what's legal here) judging them mainly by their mechanics is the best. If a "game" can't be judged that way then it's a sure way to know it's more like a barely interactive software for entertainment or something.

[Anonymous No.4582887]

>>4582881
Also, the stuff I hate the most is when games like Truxton get the modern perspective treatment.
"You can't explore, therefore it sucks / has aged."
"It's too challenging, where's the easy mode?"
"It doesn't make sense that just a ship could defeat such an army. It's too gamey."
If anything we need MORE emphasis on game mechanics while judging games. But I'm aware people don't play for that these days.

[Anonymous No.4582971]

>>4582475
i never understood how to play these kinds of games. didn't like FFT nor shining force 3. they don't seem to be really strategic

[Anonymous No.4583395]

>>4582971
Try the Nintendo Wars series. Their AI is pretty exploitable but they are entirely based around strategy, no progress systems here and limited RNG. Super Famicom Wars was recently translated.
If you want a campaign you'll have to play the GBA and DS ones.

[Anonymous No.4583407]

>>4583395
What do I mean by "limited RNG", just in case:
Your units have 10HP, and each attack can only do whole integers of damage.
However, the damage formula isn't as simple, so your result isn't exactly, say, 3 or 4 damage, it may be 3,67 or something like that.
What the game does here is turn that into chance: you'll either deal 3 or 4 damage based on luck, and the percentage depends on the decimals; so in that case it would be a 67% for 4 damage and 33% for 3 damage.
Other than some other minor stuff (mostly CO power related that can be disabled) that's all there is to it IIRC.

[Anonymous No.4583487]

>>4572573
it's a japanese franchise

[Anonymous No.4583539]

>>4572548
>legend of mana
Why? Game that started the down hill of the mana series.

[Anonymous No.4583582]

>>4581952
>No. What I'm proposing is that game mechanics are the ONLY thing that really matter when determining the quality of a game
>Your typical review of an aestheticsfag / storyfag or whatever would be something more akin to this.
>Truxton. While the game looks and sounds cool
>looks cool
>sounds cool

Another anon here. Just my two cents. I think you contradict yourself.

Aesthetics mattered in video games, almost always. Imagine mario or contra badly drawn in paint and with crappy music - albeit the same tight gameplay experience.

I for once am glad that video games evolved, sometimes in bad, sometimes in good direction. We would be stuck with pac-man, chess and centipede with pure gameplay. Without aesthetics and additions like music, various data and story, we wouldn't have games like Bioshock infinite or Half-life, we would be stuck with WW2 shooters and clones of DOOM ad nauseam. Also in sim/strategy games like transport tycoon or whatever aesthetics are crucial.

[Anonymous No.4583602]

>>4583582
I wouldn't care. For instance. Cho Ren Sha has the same exact background over and over for the entire game. Doesn't make the game any less good for me.
I've played and enjoyed many old PC games that didn't have any music nor graphical interface other than the most bare-bones stuff so you can understand what's going on.
>We would be stuck with pac-man, chess and centipede with pure gameplay.
Absolutely wrong, games that are pretty much only focused on game mechanics exist and improved a lot on that, just like the example I gave: Truxton. Sure, it had a soundtrack, but that's just fluff and not the point of the experience.
>Bioshock infinite or Half-life
What if I told you I heavily dislike those games and not appreciate that direction to games at all?
I'm not a big fan, but the Serious Sam series is an example of how FPS could have developed in modern times instead of corridor storyfag games.
And, again, sims are the exception (just like survival horror), not the rule. These are less games and more just... that, an aesthetic virtual simulation. Most don't even have mechanics, just "click this stuff and menu and watch cool stuff happen."

[Anonymous No.4583681]

>>4583602
> Most don't even have mechanics, just "click this stuff and menu and watch cool stuff happen."
Just avoid bullets and watch less cool stuff happen?

What about strategy games then? Another exception to the rule? How many exceptions do we have?

I say people always gave weight to aesthetics , cool stuff to do, music as much, if not more than to "mechanics". That's why even on old consoles/PC. Mario, Zelda, Sonic, Contra, Warcraft outsold shmups. This has less to do with modern times, but with desires of people. They want to see cool stuff happen, to hear good music, to experiment. They don't want to run their brain on a treadmill avoiding bullets, running fast through corridors or whatever.

[Anonymous No.4583721]

>>4583681
I would also add that early games had to focus on mechanics and less on cool stuff to show, because they were arcade scams when you had insert lots of coins to learn how to beat the game.

[Anonymous No.4583745]

>>4583681
>Just avoid bullets
Avoiding is a mechanic that requires execution. Just clicking and seeing stuff happen isn't.
Strategy games are game mechanic based, they are no exception. They are in fact a video game versions of war board games.
There are exceptions but they are mostly modern "games" when the industry began to cater less and less to those playing for game mechanics.
The fact that people don't value game mechanics as the number one aspect in games IS the reason video games have declined in modern times. I don't care about popularity or sales, that argument just leads to considering FIFA 18 the GOAT.
>arcade scams
Sure, modern gaymer. Take that ignorant opinion to /v/, please.

[Anonymous No.4583776]

>>4581298
Musicals are without a doubt the lowest form of entertainment.

[Anonymous No.4583786]

>>4583776
Nah, progress systems simulators are (think Cookie Clicker)

[Anonymous No.4583787]

>>4583745
>Sure, modern gaymer. Take that ignorant opinion to /v/, please.
I didn't resort to ad hominem atacks. FYI I lived through all eras of gaming and experienced all the flavours.

>Strategy games are game mechanic based, they are no exception. They are in fact a video game versions of war board games.
OK, but they base off aesthethics. Unless you think that people stopped on Panzer General.

>There are exceptions but they are mostly modern "games" when the industry began to cater less and less to those playing for game mechanics.
Not really. They just went into decline mostly, won't derail into details. There were more and less mechanically engaging strategy games, I would say this genre was least concerned with what was going on. Unless you are speaking about MOBA games, that I do not regard as strategy games.

>The fact that people don't value game mechanics as the number one aspect in games IS the reason video games have declined in modern times.
Fighter games didn't disappear anywhere. Nintendo games are still present.
Strategy/sim/puzzle/economic are around.
Sports and racers based on gameplay are existent.
There were more party games based on gameplay in last years than in the 80's.
What decline?

[Anonymous No.4583791]

>>4583786
Alright, you got me there. I wasn't even serious, i just hate musicals.

[Anonymous No.4583809]

>I didn't resort to ad hominem atacks.
The fact that you consider calling someone a "modern gamer" pejorative just means you're admitting most modern games suck.
>FYI I lived through all eras of gaming and experienced all the flavours.
And you stuck to the modern gaming mentality in the end.
>OK, but they base off aesthethics.
Dude, a game featuring good aesthetics doesn't mean it is BASED around aesthetics. They made aesthetics appealing to grab some aetheticsfags into the games, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a game mechanic foundation there and that's the main focus. It's like saying Chess is based on aesthetics just because some people may enjoy the shape of the pieces.

I'm not talking about strategy games in particular when generalizing modern games, I'm including everything, like the movies with lightly interactive parts (IIRC MGS4 was like 8 hours of cutscenes and 3 of game, and of course a very simple game so no storyfag can miss any of the cutscenes)

>Fighter games didn't disappear anywhere.
Fighters have become less complex, with stuff like cheap comeback mechanics and heavier input buffers. They are morphing to cater to stream audiences.
>Nintendo games are still present.
They became even simpler than in retro times.
>Strategy/sim/puzzle/economic
Yes, though in lesser numbers afaik (unless you count the mountains of Steam crap, I'm only considering the good stuff here)
>Sports and racers based on gameplay are existent.
Sure, but on the decline compared to sim-like games with progress systems.
>There were more party games based on gameplay in last years than in the 80's.
This one is understandable since in the 80's technology wasn't there for multiplayer stuff with multiple people at the same time. However, couch multiplayer is on the decline since the 90's and early 00's.
>What decline?
The decline is in how each year that passes there are less games released based on pure and demanding game mechanics.

[Anonymous No.4583817]

>>4583809
>The fact that you consider calling someone a "modern gamer" pejorative just means you're admitting most modern games suck.
That backpedaling wouldn't help much in real life. You're just an asshole.

[Anonymous No.4583837]

>>4583817
Not back pedaling. What, do you want me to write an essay on how your argument about arcade games is wrong? I don't think you'd care to read that at all anyway, those are boring "gameplay games" for you guys anyway. If you are interested, then tell me and I will explain it to you, but I thought this was well known stuff on /vr/ and a bit tired to begin with (like the DIDJA KNOW, MARIO 2 IS DOKI DOKI PANIC?), to the point that you calling arcades scams pretty much seemed to not be an argument and an attack by itself; why argue against something that isn't an argument?

[Anonymous No.4583838]

>>4583809
>The decline is in how each year that passes there are less games released based on pure and demanding game mechanics.
Why would games need to mantain arcade machines difficulty(those games catered to specific buissness of paying for gaming in arcade saloons.
>The decline is in how each year that passes there are less games released based on pure and demanding game mechanics.
You are speaking in absolute numbers, or relative to total number of games released?

> They made aesthetics appealing to grab some aetheticsfags into the games, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a game mechanic foundation there and that's the main focus
So you are saying that the focus wasn't there, even if it was existent? Nice.

[Anonymous No.4583842]

>>4583837
>What, do you want me to write an essay on how your argument about arcade games is wrong?
yes
>I don't think you'd care to read that at all anyway,
I would read. Thats why I visited.
> to the point that you calling arcades scams
Letting people hook up and pay to play is not scam?

[Anonymous No.4583853]

>>4583838
Absolute and relative, they are disappearing.
>So you are saying that the focus wasn't there, even if it was existent? Nice.
You have a hard time differentiating the "main focus" from "other focuses".

>>4583842
>Letting people hook up and pay to play is not scam?
This is not an argument and just for fun, but remember the F2P / lootbox craze we are living in right now lol
>Why would games need to mantain arcade machines difficulty(those games catered to specific buissness of paying for gaming in arcade saloons.
>yes
OK, I'll write the post for you guys, wait for a bit. Sorry of other anons find this too tired.

[Anonymous No.4583864]

>Get into JRPG thread
>Get Icycalm tier shitposting
Jesus christ, what happened to this board?

[Anonymous No.4583870]

Arcades have to respond to two demands.
1. Operators, owners. These demand that the games are brief and hard to beat / to survive so most people put in more than 1 quarter before never touching the game again, and the same person isn't on the same machine forever.
2. The players. They demand that the games are fun and engaging, while feeling fair; a player is much more prone to replay your game if him losing felt justified. And you want that.
As a result, arcade devs decided / found that for their games to be profitable in this environment, the games had to be very demanding so that the average casual player couldn't beat them mindlessly (like your average modern home "game"), but they also had to be very fair (i.e. mostly based on execution and not rote memorization) and very engaging, particularly with a strong replay value.
This pressure, along with how harsh the environment is (there's limited space so not profitable games, i.e. bad games, are changed quickly; a crappy game is quickly exposed by a quarter or watching the demo / other ones play it) made it so the average arcade game is MUCH better than in any other environment, particularly in Japan.
The brevity and challenge requirements didn't allow games not based around game mechanics. It's the only place where challenging games thrived, and the trend was to make games with an ever higher skill ceiling over time, as opposed to the home market that became more and more about lowering the skill floor AND ceiling.
You may think the profit system is unfair, but the fact is that this environment created probably the best games of all time, not only on average. Particularly today when playing these on ports or emulated (or new games that follow this style like Nex Machina, my 2017's GOTY) they are such a blast.
And before you come "challenge isn't everything", yes, quality takes priority. However, a good game's quality is amplified with a nice challenge that demands that you learn and appreciate its mechanics.

[Anonymous No.4583874]

>>4583853
>You have a hard time differentiating the "main focus" from "other focuses".
I say that both good gameplay and good aesthethics are important. You say that only gameplay, and aesthethics are addition, as far as I can tell. Without aesthethics, first mario would look like Atari game, warcraft/ age of empires would look like animated panzer general with poor music and sounds, and there would be no playing around with art convention, just generic fantasy and space.

>This is not an argument and just for fun, but remember the F2P / lootbox craze we are living in right now lol
And I say this is also a scam.

Just saying that each eras of gaming had its cons and pros, and I wouldn't return to making myself a Pavlov dog playing Battletoads 1 or Ninja gaiden or some shmups.

[Anonymous No.4583875]

>>4583864
For the record, I dislike Icycalm and enjoy some JRPGs from time to time. I just dislike storyfagging and the like.

[Anonymous No.4583876]

>>4583864
>Icycalm
Whats Icycalm?
Besides this board is mostly poor shitposting and shitflinging, I prefer some facts for once.

[Anonymous No.4583879]

>>4583874
Who cares what a game looks like, would you play a game that looks nice but plays like shit? If so, there's a word for guys like you: aestheticsfag.
Graphics can only enhance an already good game.

[Anonymous No.4583882]

>>4583876
A notorious guy that likes arcade games but is otherwise an idiot. He doesn't deserve any more detail.

[Anonymous No.4583890]

>>4583870
Hmm I guess you are right. So how is newer Tekken games worse than Tekken 3?

[Anonymous No.4583894]

>>4583890
I'm not into 3D fighting games in particular, sorry. Though from what I've heard from fans, the favored entry is 5, which is pretty old now. I may be wrong, though.
However, the newer Tekken games are still releases in the arcades first afaik. Why bring them up?

[Anonymous No.4583898]

>>4583879
I said I want both graphics and gameplay.

Anyway, JRPGS have shit gameplay, btw. Now that I remembered in waht thread I am. FF7 was cool because had tons of things to do like growing chocobos or motorcycling, and good aesthethics. rest is repetetive boredomfeast like breath of fire with its encounter rates and pushing one button to defeat enemies. How can you play this and not get bored?

[Anonymous No.4583909]

>>4583894
> Why bring them up?
I want to see if the whole decline thing is true.

[Anonymous No.4583910]

>>4570315
>30 years old
Weren't you kids really into pokemon back in the day?

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[Anonymous No.4583914]

>>4583898
>I said I want both graphics and gameplay.
Sure! But when choosing between these, if you don't pick gameplay you're an aestheticsfag. Gameplay is what makes video games special.

And yeah, JRPGs aren't very good. When I play them I appreciate their strategic and exploration elements, and try to beat them with the least grind possible, which improves the experience.
This is why I get mad when storyfags claim these are all about the story; there's a nice, even if basic and easily breakable by progress systems if you so desire gameplay foundation.

I used to play them more in my teens. Nowadays I beat maybe 1 or 2 a year at best, and remember, in a quick manner and I also tend to gravitate to older ones (pre-5th gen) which are shorter as well.

[Anonymous No.4583918]

>>4583876
Some asshole like those two fags replying to each other in this thread.

[Anonymous No.4583923]

>>4583909
The decline is mostly about the decline of the arcade influence in home games over time; if Tekken is still an arcade franchise then it's not what I was talking about.
To be fair, I don't necessarily want these to be mainstream, just for them to not disappear. I was happy with the number of releases we got in the 5th, 6th and even to some extent 7th gen; however, they are almost gone now, which is a shame.

[Anonymous No.4583932]

>>4583914
>This is why I get mad when storyfags claim these are all about the story
Looking at how they evolved, one cannot say they are wrong.

As the other anon said, the problem with jrpg is that combat, the base gameplay element of jrpg, is just shit. Jumping over mushrooms in Mario is entertaining, killing stuff in zelda is good enough to keep you going. Combat in jrpg becomes very tedious: not fast enough, not enough strategy, too many encounters with no novelty.

They were always better at providing a big and rich world that you could dive in. Ironically, learning about the plot and the world through small conversations with npcs is more entertaining that fighting against goblins for the nth time.

[Anonymous No.4583935]

>>4583918
Still better than 99% of this board, like N64 guy fighting holy crusade against sony and other autismos.

[Anonymous No.4583940]

>>4571754
>Dragon Quest
>SMT
>not in entry level shit
The person who made this image is a faggot

[Anonymous No.4583949]

>>4583940
I don't know, I'm a Chad and I preferred FF, dropped dragon quest and SMT after 2 hours of repetetive gameplay.

[Anonymous No.4583961]

>>4583935
>Still better than 99% of this board
Oh yeah, two Icycalm expies talking about how bad JRPGs are when they evidently played nothing but a few pieces of trash, in a JRPG thread, are better than 99% of the board.

No wonder I've been browsing this board less and less, it has become another shithole full of pretentious shitposters just like all the other videogame boards.

[Anonymous No.4583971]

>>4583961
> how bad JRPGs are when they evidently played nothing but a few pieces of trash
But the concept is a disaster. This can't bring gameplay values unless:

1)game derails into adventure/minigames to avoid repetetivness
2)game is hyper on strategy AND innovation without resorting to grinding

Now which JRPG did you have in mind?

[Anonymous No.4583995]

It depends on what you want out of a JRPG. When I was 18 all I wanted to play were 60-hour RPGs with dense stories and flashy presentation. Now that I'm 31 all I wanna play are dungeon crawlers and roguelikes. I'm no longer interested in story because the stories of JRPGs are usually pretty bad, and I don't have time for 60-hour games. But I do enjoy the gameplay, challenge, and customizabilty of dungeon crawlers.

If you want to play a story-driven JRPG that won't feel insulting to your intelligence, I recommend the Front Mission series, the Tactics Ogre/Ogre Battle series, the Valkyrie Profile series, the Shin Megami Tensei series (not the spin-offs), and Phantasy Star I-IV. If you want something more out-there in terms of story, consider the Drakengard or SaGa games.

If you want gameplay-focused JRPGs, I recommend the Mystery Dungeon/Shiren the Wanderer and Etrian Odyssey series, which are my current favorites (along with Soulsborne and Monster Hunter, but those are action-RPGs).

And if you want a sort of enjoyably mindless action/grindfest, try Phantasy Star Online, the Ys series, Dark Cloud 2, and the Shining action-RPGs.

I recommend staying away from extremely long, anime JRPGs in general, which tend to be very overrated. Wild ARMs, Breath of Fire, Legend of Legaia, Persona, Suikoden, Skies of Arcadia, Chrono Trigger/Cross, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Mana, Tales, etc. Some of these are fine if you know what you're getting into, especially the earlier shorter ones, but many of them get really tedious and are really not worth the time investment. I do recommend the SaGa series if you're up for something more experimental.

[Anonymous No.4584010]

>>4583932
Older JRPGs or precursors to that (like Wizardry) can still be decently engaging in small doses. SRPGs have better combat as well, while sacrificing exploration.
Of course, I have a hard time stomaching games with long and unskippable cutscenes like FFX.
And yes, I enjoy how getting clues on how to advance via NPCs can be flavored without sacrificing the game (unlike the forced cutscenes which are just plot).
>>4583940
It's a troll pick, anon.
>>4583961
Fuck Icycalm. And as you're seeing, I also enjoy JRPGs, I'm not an arcadefag.
>>4583995
This guy knows what's up. It's typical that you shift from time+quality/price to quality/time as you get older, and also as you get to appreciate better stories in books and stuff.
>especially the earlier shorter ones
Nailed it here, which is why, from those more simple and linear ones, I'm only fine with SFC era and not later.
These games just feel the need to be long for the sake of being long. Look no further than Digimon World 3, holy shit, that game is not a Role Playing Game, it's a Really Padded Game.

[Anonymous No.4584046]

>>4583995
Thank you, will need to dig deeper.

>When I play them I appreciate their strategic and exploration elements,
But isn't exploration aesthethics and story? If so, then a game can be enjoyable, without resorting to arcade gameplay, as long as it plays it s role as a medium in exploration, and not being a passive observer.

[Anonymous No.4584047]

>>4583995
>Front Mission
>Valkyrie Profile
>SMT
>"not insulting to your intelligence"

Are you underage?

[Anonymous No.4584049]

>>4583971
>1)game derails into adventure/minigames to avoid repetetivness
All games are by nature repetitive, your precious arcade games even more so, but of course you're gonna say that shit like Gradius, Metal Slug or Raiden are totally not repetitive at all.
Or things like all the various iterations of Space Invaders, or Pac-Man, totally not repetitive.
The problem isn't repetition, it never was.
>2)game is hyper on strategy AND innovation without resorting to grinding
And this points out how trash you are at RPGs.
Not that I'm surprised though, just like the usual conceited faggot of your kind it turns out you don't even actually know how to play shit and you think all there is to it is grinding, just because you've played a handful of casual games.
And you even act like arcade games are any better when EVERYONE grinds the shit out of stages, and you better thank god stuff like MAME is a thing or by now your kind would be living in the streets.
You know what makes you really good at things? REPETITION, the more you do a thing the better you are at it, the more you grind stages the better you get, the more you practice with your guitar the better you get at it.
RPGs are the same, but given their abstract nature, most of them give you to option to either grind for hours or actually use your head, which you evidently can't do, grinding in RPGs is pretty much like selecting easy mode in any arcade game or other games that have the option.

Read this>>4583995, and try to learn from this anon since he's immensely more sensible than you'll ever be, maybe one day you'll even be able to do low level solo runs and boast about it just like you lot like to fellate on high scores or NCCs.

[Anonymous No.4584054]

>>4584046
>But isn't exploration aesthethics and story?
Nah, by exploration I mean figuring out how to get through a dungeon, the game mechanic part. In some super linear RPGs this doesn't happen, but I enjoy stuff like mapping dungeon crawlers.
This isn't arcade gameplay, nor does it need to. It just needs to be based on gameplay first and foremost for it to be enjoyable for me.

[Anonymous No.4584059]

>>4584047

I'd love to hear how those games' stories insulted your intelligence, I'm sure you're going to say something like "they are no match for the greatest works of classical literature!", as if that was a clever thing to say.

For fantasy/sci-fi adventure stories, I think they're pretty good.

[Anonymous No.4584068]

>>4583995
So you basically admitted that JRPGs gameplay is kinda crappy besides those nintendo 3DS tittles that are more of a homage to roguelikes than JRPGs?

[Anonymous No.4584074]

>>4584049
>All games are by nature repetitive, your precious arcade games even more so, but of course you're gonna say that shit like Gradius, Metal Slug or Raiden are totally not repetitive at all.
Or things like all the various iterations of Space Invaders, or Pac-Man, totally not repetitive.
The problem isn't repetition, it never was.
You misttok be for the other guy that liked arcade. I'm the one that said that we need both gameplay aesthethics and novelty.

>some underage rage
somebody find that pasta about a kid being in navy seals, I forgot the name of that meme

[Anonymous No.4584078]

>>4584049
>your precious arcade games even more so
You are not replying to the same guy here, btw. I'm the one that made the arcade post, but not the guy you're quoting.
Arcade games are repetitive, but that's why they don't overstay their welcome with lengths ranging from 15-60 minutes in most cases. When a game expects you to do the same stuff over and over for dozens of hours, particularly without a challenge, that's when there's a problem, and why I said these games are fine but only in small doses.
And yeah, I disagree with that guy, there are some JRPGs that are about strategy and innovation. I specifically said I avoid the grind to waste less time and enjoy their challenge more. I'm not the only arcade lover here, and as you see we're all different.
However, you can't compare getting better yourself by "grinding" games rather than improving your avatar's skills by getting experience points or whatever, it's a very different thing. One requires you to get good and appreciate the game, the other just that you waste enough time without even needing to think.
I don't think JRPGs suck because they're too easy when you grind; however, the progress systems (that are there to grab some people that get addicted to them) make the games less balanced than what they could've been, it's hard to avoid this.
I do the low level stuff and the like, again, it's how I play these games. Don't generalize arcade lovers, fellow anon.

[Anonymous No.4584086]

>>4584059
They are no match for Harry Potter.

[Anonymous No.4584096]

>>4583995

Some other series/games I forgot to mention:

Rudra no Hihou for the SNES (fan translated) is a good Final Fantasy-esque game, the story is split into different scenarios with different protagonists, which makes it more digestible. Other similar SNES RPGs worth trying include Dark Half and Live-A-Live, and for the NES, Sweet Home and Dream Master.

The Shadow Hearts and Mother games are pretty bloated, but enjoyably kooky and weird.

The Japanese Wizardry (Wizardry Busin) games are amazing. Some action dungeon crawlers, such as King's Field, Baroque, and Shadow Tower, are also cool.

If you enjoy Etrian Odyssey you might also like the 7th Dragon games, though personally they were too anime for me. If you want less anime, try The Dark Spire.

>>4584068
I think story-driven JRPGs that last for 60 hours are a lot of fun for teenagers with lots of time on their hands. As people grow, their tastes and priorities change.

>>4584086
Harry Potter is such shit, good god. It's like DBZ for girls.

Anyway, have fun! That's all the recommendations I can think of.

[Anonymous No.4584102]

>>4584078
>the progress systems (that are there to grab some people that get addicted to them)
What do you mean by that?

[Anonymous No.4584132]

>>4584102
There are people that play games just to see numbers going up or getting permanent rewards, they get addicted to that. The market for this is huge if you've payed attention to how modern games are built.
To see my point, compare the Nintendo Wars series with Fire Emblem. The first one lacks leveling up mechanics and story (only light story in the post-retro entries), but as a result it has a tighter strategic element, aside from bad AI. Over-leveling in FE can make the games too trivial sometimes, considering you can beat them without experience stat gains at all (I've played them with patches that make it so that when you level up you gain nothing).

[Anonymous No.4584141]

>>4583995
How should one approach SagA series? This is so overwhelming.

[Anonymous No.4584163]

>>4584096

Okay, I lied. Just a couple more.

The Lunar, Grandia, and Star Ocean games are all pretty generic and easy, but have fun semi-real time combat systems. The same goes for Final Fantasy XII The Zodiac Age, though I know that's an unpopular opinion.

If you want something that straddles the line between RPG and life sim, I've found the Rune Factory games surprisingly enjoyable. I've also been told Recettear is similar, but I haven't tried it.

>>4584141

If you're coming from a retro RPG or WRPG background, I recommend Romancing SaGa 3 on the SNES (fan translated) or Minstrel Song on the PS2 if you wanna jump into the deep end.

If you come from a modern JRPG background, the SaGa Frontier games on PS1 are probably the easiest entry point.

If you come from a non-RPG background, then definitely the Final Fantasy Adventure games on Gameboy.

[Anonymous No.4584167]

>>4584163
*Final Fantasy Legend, not Adventure.

[Anonymous No.4584174]

>>4584078
>One requires you to get good and appreciate the game
So does the other one.
>the other just that you waste enough time without even needing to think.
You're seriously telling me that you need to "think" in shmups like Raycrisis or arcade puzzle games like Mr Driller?

They're twitch based action games, there is no little to no thinking involved.
I sure as hell don't think how Susumu, Ataru or Taizo play when I'm doing a 1999M run in Mr Driller G, their gimmicks and gameplan are so straightforward I don't need to, nor do I stop to think how I can deal with bosses while using the Hammer Duke in ZanacNeo, my only worry is that it's a slower ship compared to Knife-Edge, that stuff doesn't require thinking, it requires muscle memory and reflexes, which you acquire and get better at through repetition.

In RPGs I have no muscle memory to help me out, unless it's action based stuff like TES(which is usually terrible).
When I play a RPG I am forced to stop and think because they're games almost completely focused on mechanical knowledge, the more you know about mechanics the better you get at them, which requires a completely different mindset and skillset from arcade games.

Whereas in arcade games you get a performance check based on your difficulty setting and score in RPGs you get it through completing the games with the lowest requirements possible, there is zero difference between requirement levels between games, if you bitch about RPGs not requiring any skill because you can grind then I can easily moan about arcade games being overrated because you can finish them on easy or just coast through with continues even on the hardest setting, and the only argument against it would be that I didn't "truly" beat them.
>>4584141
Just don't be afraid of getting your ass kicked, they're complex and unusual but also pretty intuitive and mechanically tight, the more you play the better you get, some of the best stuff around if you're a gameplay kind of guy.

[Anonymous No.4584230]

>>4584174
>So does the other one.
Absolutely not, by grinding on trivial enemies to make the rest of the game just as trivial you are actively avoiding the game mechanics. Using the strongest attack without thinking and demolishing anything without opposition doesn't make you appreciate any game mechanic there may be there, while not grinding lets you see how the game is actually designed.
>You're seriously telling me that you need to "think" in shmups like Raycrisis or arcade puzzle games like Mr Driller?
Yes, much more than selecting Attack on enemies that die from it in one hit, rinse and repeat and then do the same for the entire game just for the plot, aesthetics or whatever. They are pretty much destroying the game (and wasting their time as well), it's akin to credit feeders in arcades, only more time consuming.
I know, man, I play these without grinding, but saying grinding in RPGs is as mindless as playing challenging action arcades is just LOL.

[Anonymous No.4584342]

>>4583995
Disgaea has more strategy than any version of Tactics Ogre.

And only lasts long if you want.

[Anonymous No.4584347]

>>4584342
Disgaea is a series that illustrates a lot what I was saying here >>4584132
You don't have to grind, but the fact that you CAN grind a fucking lot just attracts some turbo progressfags to those games and have given the series a bad name.

[Anonymous No.4584360]

>>4584347
What's the problem you are playing to show for the others or to enjoy yourself?

[Anonymous No.4584370]

>>4584360
I play to enjoy myself, of course. However, an excessive pandering to aestheticsfags, storyfags and progressfags has made it that there are few releases that interest me these days since the point to most games these days isn't the game mechanics and thus they are basic, easy and/or buried under hours of cutscenes or whatever.
I only care about what others like because their bigger number means games for us are disappearing.

[Anonymous No.4584468]

>>4584347

I'm sure you can do low-level runs on Disgaea for a challenge, but it requires a level of mastery of the game that you usually get after playing it for a very long time, and the game itself clearly encourages you to grind your life out. You can't really access a lot of the game's content, like prestige classes and monster recruits and so on, without lots of grinding. Features like the Item World are built for grinding.

This isn't really a good or bad thing, just giving my impressions of the series. I feel like the average player spends a lot of time on a Disgaea game, and that's how they're designed to be played.

>>4584370

The indie market is sort of filling that void. Darkest Dungeon is really good. So is Labyrinth of Touhou. A lot of new takes on the roguelike genre are also coming out, and even if they're not super good, it's nice that they're experimenting. Series like Etrian Odyssey and Mystery Dungeon are going strong in Japan, though they aren't always localized. Japan has a permanent hard-on for Wizardry clones. Also, Artifact Adventure is a cool, retro-style, open-ended pseudo-JRPG.

In general JRPGs are not as popular today as they were ten years ago, not even close. I do think that waifufags have ruined series like Fire Emblem and Persona, but that's not really going to affect the amount of dungeon crawlers, roguelikes, or open-ended JRPGs coming out, because they're meant for different audiences.

[Anonymous No.4584485]

>>4584468
>sort of
That's the point.

[Anonymous No.4584514]

>>4584342
>>4584468
I played disgaea 1 once and I didn't do any item world aside from that tiny mandatory sequence at the start and I didn't ever replay fights. I tried to find the optimal solution to each map just like I play most trpgs. What I experienced was a repetitive with terrible balance, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone aiming to play this way. I get the impression that people like the series because they like grinding and crushing the enemy in whatever way they choose.

>>4584468
If you're a gameplayfag then you should be able to recognize that FE Conquest is easily the best game in the series.

[Anonymous No.4584540]

>>4584514

Is it? I played halfway through Birthright and thought it was hot garbage.

[Anonymous No.4584542]

>gameplayfag
This has to stop, I mean, how on Earth could you be a "fag" for playing video games for the... game part?

[Anonymous No.4584551]

>>4584542

That's just how 4chan categorizes people anon, don't take it as an insult.

[Anonymous No.4584583]

>>4584514
Optimal Disgaea plays like a no grinding Fire Emblem with less RNG which makes the game fun.

And the lift/throw mechanic adds a LOT to the game.

Not to mention stuff you can pull off low levelled like Geo Change, or Poison on D2 onwards.

And even the post game you will need to grind but your playthroughs will usually end on 2x hours if are good, any more than that you are grinding for grinding sake because you can take out Strongest Uber Prinny Baal or Unleashed Pringer X.

[Anonymous No.4584594]

>>4584540
Birthright has terrible, gutted maps because IS wanted to appeal to the same audience that loved Awakening, i.e. people who like winning and levelling up but don't want to have to exert brainpower on a video game. Conquest takes a very different approach. The battles in Conquest involve a high degree of tactical depth relative to the other games in the series as there are many interesting game mechanics and top-tier level design to make use of them. Almost every map has some sort of unique challenge that encourages you to use different tactics to achieve victory. Also worth noting that it's possibly the only game in the series that gets harder towards the end instead of peaking in the middle.
However you better be prepared to mash start through any cutscene because the writing is beyond awful.

>>4584583
What do you mean by 'optimal disgaea'?
FE doesn't really rely on RNG to determine the outcome, it's more about finding tactics where success is guaranteed regardless of RNG. Though I also appreciate games where RNG is unavoidable and adapting and making contingency plans is essential.

[Anonymous No.4584596]

>>4584551
I think you're right, at least in this case it didn't seem like it. But I'm sick of reading stuff like "too gamey" used as a pejorative, for instance. Not on /vr/, but on more mainstream stuff.

[Anonymous No.4584598]

>>4578950
Though many do have pretty in-depth plot guides all by the same guy.

[Anonymous No.4584607]

>>4584596

That is true, but that is mostly because video game news media is populated by people who want video games to be interactive movies.

[Anonymous No.4584608]

>>4584594
I meant on the sense of leaving the damage and EXP to the best unit while the other units buff or support in any way (walling, lifting, baiting).

[Anonymous No.4584641]

>>4584608
That's mainly how I played it, I'd pass a 3x exp bill, stack up the enemies, then kill with laharl. I also gave some exp to other characters for buffs.

It did involve tactics to some degree but I think TRPGs where you are encouraged to train a more balanced party are much more interesting and fun to play.

[Anonymous No.4584823]

>>4584641
3xp bill even with Rogue exploit doesn't worth it, stacking bosses was faster it you could cheese you way to the Neko map then either start the post-game from there or just get enough resources to beat the game.

[Anonymous No.4585307]

>>4584823
Please explain in English

[Anonymous No.4585727]

>>4585307
I was wondering what effects a bit of numbness after playing competitive 1v1 games on keyboard would have... wow.

A boss takes priority on every enemy so a enemy fusion using lift/throw will always result on a boss more powerfull.

If you use a glass cannon type of build with Laharl (axes, belts and emblems if stronger) killing the boss with higher level will give you a fuckington of EXP doing it with 3XP does not even work if you are playing underleveled because the EXP goes to the first kill even if it is the enemy who kills and as you will need to sacrifice allies to protect yourself and fuse enemies you essentially wasted time passing the bill.

The focus on bosses is that they by default give have an absurd high EXP yield value normally five times more than a normal mob of the same level.

And EXP you get on Disgaea is based on how much EXP the target need to the next level so it's simply the higher the level the higher the EXP.

In short Midboss and Hoggmeiser are husbandos.

[Anonymous No.4585782]

>>4584542
Maybe if you value so much the gameplay aspect that you would downplay the story aspect when it clearly is superior to its gameplay counterpart. This is specially true in jrpgs that usually feature repetitive and easy encounters, to the point that following the plot and exploring towns becomes more interesting (and anyway, is like half of the game usually)

[Anonymous No.4585796]

>>4585727
I see, thanks for explaining. I assumed the bill would apply for whatever character passed it but I guess I had wasted my time.
I did notice that bosses gave a lot of exp but boss fights are relatively rare so it makes more sense to me to stack up enemies in every map; otherwise it's a waste of resources.

Are other NIS games designed similarly to disgaea in that you're encouraged to focus your exp on one character and having a high level is far more important than the way you approach the chapter? In particular I'm interested in Soul Nomad.

[Anonymous No.4585820]

>>4585782
As a gameplayfag I can't imagine a game being good if it half the game is "repetitive and easy encounters". JRPGs with good stories are extremely rare and I've never played one good enough to justify 15+ hours of tedium.

[Anonymous No.4585943]

>>4585782
I'm the guy you quoted and... almost exactly this >>4585820
If the gameplay is bad, the game is bad. No amount of storyfaggotry can compensate, unless you are a storyfag that has no problem wasting hours in a shitty game just to watch some cutscenes of what only amounts to be juvenile stories.

[Anonymous No.4586446]

>>4585796
Not so rare, Midboss is a has a boss tag.

And while combining and killing for every map is a good idea, the boss thing is crucial.

It's Metal Slime tier of EXP.

[Anonymous No.4586470]

>>4585796
Imo i think most of them are like that, if the reverse idea pick your interest try La Pucelle PSP it's a reversal Disgaea on how you advance.

[Anonymous No.4586478]

>>4585820
>As a gameplayfag I can't imagine a game being good if it half the game is "repetitive and easy encounters". JRPGs with good stories are extremely rare and I've never played one good enough to justify 15+ hours of tedium.

You are right, the majority of jrpgs are bad, as the open world genre, they took advantage of the market demaning more rpgs.

Combat in jrpgs is like coins or boxes in Mario. They are the low hanging fruit of game design. Sometimes it actually works but most of the times is there because fills the void.

I like jrpgs as the sum of different aspects: exploration, plot and combat. I don't expect each of these aspects to be good, but in conjuntion you get a different experience, being the story the most attractive one because not many games develop a big epic through a whole world spanning several adventures and characters.

Given that the only new information that a jrpg provides is the plot (everything else is the same) and how mediocre and easy combat usually is, i'd rather play Shining Force, Fire Emblem, Tactics Ogre or virtually any other better designed genre if i thought the story in jrpgs is dispensable.

[Anonymous No.4586797]

>>4583940
It's /v/, they've never been right about anything.

[Anonymous No.4587432]

>>4583940
>SMT
>entry level
Persona 3-5 sure but how is shit like mainline entry level?

[Anonymous No.4587510]

>>4571754
>legend of heroes
>etrian
>rance
>atelier
>lunar
>valkyria chronicles
>phantasy star
>not all weeaboo shit
ff, ct, gs, mother, and mario rpgs may be entry level, but they're better than weeaboo shit

[Anonymous No.4587610]

>>4587432
Kyuuyaku, SMT1 and 2 are particularly not very appealing to FFVII normies from what I've seen.

[Anonymous No.4589529]

Is the PC version of FF8 worth bothering with, or should I just emulate?

[Anonymous No.4589552]

>>4577125
>all these literal who gundam games have full translations and yet not a single Gihren's Greed has been translated
What the fuck are Rune-readers doing?

[Anonymous No.4589692]

>>4589529
Emulate, PS1 FF7 and 9 are few FFs that function similar o better on PC.

[Anonymous No.4591724]

>>4570315
Lufia 2 has surprisingly human writing. Like, the characters act like people instead of like anime/game protagonists so much it's actually hard to get used to. Sometimes the dialogue is awkward and you're like "this game has awkward dialog" but in fact the characters are responding to an awkward situation. Or someone is ridiculously over the top and you think "this game expects me to think this guy is cool" but then you realize he's trying too hard and the game knows this.

Also great puzzles and really good music everywhere there isn't plot.

[Anonymous No.4593345]

>>4591724

Yeah forgot this one specially because for a mature person it's a game that deals with adult fear in a interesting way without being super 2deepforU.

Also this track:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wWHZE14hP8