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/vr/ - Retro Games


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4564168 No.4564168 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]

Just wanted to say I dislike the term "bullet hell" a lot, it stinks as if it was a name made up by outsiders (people that don't play these games) that consider these impossible meme games that only masochists would enjoy or something.
I mean, games like arcade beat'em ups are also hard to beat but aren't called "nightmarish crowds" or other similarly silly, almost pejorative names.

>> No.4564170

>>4564168
Disregard that I suck cocks.

>> No.4564172
File: 50 KB, 874x686, DTKhRDoXkAA59z1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4564172

>>4564170
FPBP!

>> No.4564186
File: 15 KB, 256x240, gfs_58218_2_9.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4564186

>Not playing block hells

>> No.4564195
File: 129 KB, 640x480, dr-robotniks-mean-bean-machine-07.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4564195

>>4564186
Mean Bean Machine is way better than Tetris.

>> No.4564196

>>4564186
Man, the game is impossible to beat, what bs artificial difficulty is that. Old games surely have aged.

/LARPing as a /v/tard

>> No.4564201

>>4564196
If you replied to the Mean Bean Machine post it would be more believable.

>> No.4564203

I'd still rather use it than "danmaku" like a filthy weeb

>> No.4564209

>>4564168
Go play mars matrix

>> No.4564213

>>4564168

Mars Matrix is pretty fuckin hellish if I do say so myself. But okay, since the term bullet hell displeases you, WHAT would you suggest calling it?

>inb4 shmup

Let's be creative.

>> No.4564215

>>4564213
Not op but vertical belt scroller

>> No.4564216

>>4564201
I was posting it before your post was posted. Also, redundancy.
>>4564203
OP here. Yeah, danmaku stinks a lot as well. I mean, if you google that shit the first results are 2hu shit ffs.
>>4564209
Classy.

>> No.4564220

>>4564216
Because you recognized the reference
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRhFYV4-pBQ

>> No.4564221

>>4564203
They both mean "STG with lot of bullets on the screen".
You can use "manic shooter" if you're too autistic to use those terms, but it doesn't work for slow-paced games.

>> No.4564223
File: 25 KB, 320x240, tgm3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4564223

>>4564186
That's not block hell.

>> No.4564225

>>4564215

Can't say I like that term. Too many syllables. Sounds kind of exhausting in description

>> No.4564234

>>4564215
This

>> No.4564236

>>4564223
>SRS
Fuck TGM3. TGM2+ for life.

>> No.4564238

>>4564213
It's not as if 80's shooters were easy or anything.
Anyway, I don't know which name would be best. I guess we could start by bringing the differences these games have compared to older shooters:
1. Small hitbox, smaller than your sprite.
2. A lot more static bullet patterns (rather than mostly aimed), in more quantity but less speed.
3. Older games were mostly about macrododging with some micrododging to mix the challenge up. These are the reverse: mostly micrododging with some macrododing needed to throw you off.
4. More emphasis on scoring. More complex scoring systems.
5. More forgiving, as in easier to get into, but with a higher skill cap as well.
6. They are more prone to have anime girls. This is more due to aesthetic trends of a different era, though.

>> No.4564241

>>4564220
Indeed.

>> No.4564245
File: 439 KB, 1024x719, ClffTI5VEAEyiqp.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4564245

>>4564236
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghppdCYKEnA
>There are actually people who deny this is the best Tetris

>> No.4564246

>>4564238

I'm guessing you're not a fan of the game Radirgy then?

>> No.4564256

>>4564238
What rubs me the wrong way is hidden and not document scoring systems like in Blazing Star.
Thats my only issue with shmups in general.

>> No.4564283

>>4564256
Have fun studying the rank systems of the Shinobu Yagawa games btw (I like them but if Blazing Star annoys you then oh boy)
>>4564246
All the stuff I listed are not elements I dislike, just what makes this particular subset of shooters stand out from older ones. I slightly prefer older games (my favorites are from Toaplan) but I'm absolutely fine with these as well, including the one you mentioned.

>> No.4564287
File: 55 KB, 500x395, 693-dark-shadows-curtains-burning.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4564287

>>4564168
UM EXCUSE ME SIR IT'S CALLED "DANMAKU" (WHICH LITERALLY TRANSLATES TO "CURTAIN FIRE") NOT "BULLET HELL" I MEAN WHAT EVEN IS THAT

>> No.4564292

>>4564283

Alright. It was a little hard to discern where you were coming from at first.

>> No.4564308

>>4564283
>Have fun studying the rank systems
Im trying to avoid overly complex/autistic shooting games.
There is only so much time in one day and I want to do other things besides dodging pixels in specific order.

>> No.4564317

>>4564308
Play the Toaplan shooters if you haven't, then. For me they are the sweet spot of the genre.
>>4564287
Here: >>4564216

>> No.4564330
File: 113 KB, 640x400, 116090,O.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4564330

>>4564168
i know the feelin, i love multitasking hell games, but the genre could have a better name

>> No.4564345

>>4564330
Yeah, I'm a King of Fighters fan but this "hitting mess" name just pissed me off.

>> No.4564414

>>4564345
>hitting mess
Pretty sure those are called "single screen belt scrollers."

>> No.4564417

>>4564414
As a fan of those too I'd actually prefer something like that to replace "fighting game" to the shit we have to deal with us fans of more recent shooting games. We don't even have an acceptable term for these.

>> No.4564420

>>4564168
gotta keep it seperated from shoot em ups

>> No.4564423

i think the term exists because they're kind of for genre enthusiasts and distinct from shooters that don't require you to learn a specific route to clear a stage

>> No.4564424

>>4564420
Sure, but why does it have to be such a shitty and almost pejorative term.

>> No.4564426

>>4564423
Don't know, I've seen people call stuff like R-Type "memorizers" and that's from the 80's.

>> No.4564428

>>4564424
Does it even matter, the genre is dead now. I hate terminology police.

>> No.4564432

>>4564428
It matters because when people hear of this shitty name they are scared of even trying them. It probably contributed to kill them faster.
It sucks because these are more noob friendly than older arcade shooters.

>> No.4564452

>>4564432
Surely it's the name that's scaring people off. Not your gatekeeping attitude.

>> No.4564454

>>4564432
Well, you probably should play a shmup before a bullet hell anyways.

>> No.4564456

>>4564452
>gatekeeping attitude
>praising them for being more noob friendly (while not sacrificing skill cap and in fact increasing it compared to older shooters)
I hope you're talking about guys other than me.

>> No.4564457

>>4564432
I seriously doubt it's the name that's scaring people off
just because they might not be as hard doesn't mean they're as fun as older shooters. at least when older shooters kill you it's (most of the time) your fault even when it's your first time seeing the stage

>> No.4564460

>>4564454
I've found that noobies get into these "bullet hells" much more easily (I've had experience with this). They tend to be more lenient and IMO work better to start with.
Having more advanced graphics and more hi-fi music also helps grab some of them. This is mostly just them being newer, however.

>> No.4564461

>>4564457
>might not be as hard
That is bullshit because a 2all in DOJ WL or Ketsui Ura Loop are probably the two hardest clears ever made.

>> No.4564464

>>4564457
I guess you're thinking about made for console 4th gen shooters or something. Older arcade shooters are unforgiving as fuck (Gradius III, Image Fight, R-Type, Truxton II...)

>> No.4564467

>>4564461
That's the skill cap aspect to them (these are probably the two hardest ones though, not an accurate representation of the average bullet hell). The first stages on these are pretty chill to let new players ease in, and they'll probably feel satisfied with a 1-ALL as well.

>> No.4564468

>>4564464
R-Type 1 is easy to medium difficulty.
R-Type 2 is pretty hard.

>> No.4564470

>>4564468
Sure, they aren't AS bad when memorized. But throwing a noob at these will be a pretty miserable experience most of the time.

>> No.4564472
File: 182 KB, 334x656, Screenshot-2018-2-4 Hidden Star in Four Seasons - .png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4564472

I see shitposters blaming little-girl-maniac-shooters or whatever you want to call them for killing the industry, now let's see how well they are performing.

Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu - 20,000 sales
https://steamspy.com/app/464450
Mushihimesama - 37,000 sales
https://steamspy.com/app/377860
The Almighty Touhou, destroyer of genres - 36,000 sales
https://steamspy.com/app/745880

Those are pathetic numbers.
These are the biggest names in the genre right now and as you can see, these games simply do not sell very well.

>> No.4564476

>>4564472
People ITT aren't trashing these games as far as I can see.
Though yeah, arcade shooters or arcade style games in general are very out of style nowadays. Cave stopped making these in 2012 and it was the biggest dev left.

>> No.4564479

>>4564472
Not everything has to sell millions

>> No.4564480

>>4564479
Unfortunately these sales meant Cave isn't making these anymore. Shit's dying.

>> No.4564487

>>4564476
At least Satazius did pretty well but then again it was sold at 5 dollar price
https://steamspy.com/app/203990

>> No.4564492

>>4564472
>hard
>casual
These tags are retarded. (Not a 2hutard, just in case).

>> No.4564493

>>4564492
Meant to say difficult, not hard.

>> No.4564509

>>4564480
I don't think Cave actually did any of those ports. It was probably Degica. Your concern should be them doing bad enough that Degica didn't bother getting more of their games

>> No.4564513

>>4564509
Devs like Cave quitting the genre is a big deal. You can't live on ports forever. Well, I guess you as a person can, but the genre would be dead by virtue of no actually new releases.

>> No.4564524

>>4564480
Good. Cave was the master of unoriginality and rehashing. We need more Treasures and less Caves in the field.

>> No.4564530

>>4564524
you're not allowed to make posts this good

>> No.4564536

>>4564524
Too bad Treasure quit in /vr/ times (2004 if you count the made for console Gradius V which is one of the better "for console modern" games, to be honest).
And sure, Cave got samey (particularly for survival) after a while.

>> No.4564575

>>4564168
call it "curtain fire" if you want to sound like a touhou tard

>> No.4564580

>>4564575
This was already addressed here >>4564216

>> No.4564584

I like the term bullet hell. Aside from it just being nice to have a specifier for what kind of shooter the game is, I just think it’s fun to say. Bullet hell. It sounds fucking cool. It feels fitting for such a fun genre to have such a cool, fun name.

>> No.4564587

>>4564584
>hell
>fun

>> No.4564602 [DELETED] 

>>4564587
Hell is a more appropriate name because shmups are never any fucking fun.

>> No.4564603

>>4564602
>I need to win to have fun
Laaame

>> No.4564604

>>4564602
You're really late to the party this time, anti-arcade shitposter.

>> No.4564609

>>4564603
exactly. if the journey itself is fun, you don't need to reach the destination, but it feels good when you do.

>> No.4564614 [DELETED] 

>>4564609
BUT MUH SCORES
No fuck off, it's all about proving who has the biggest penis, nobody cares about the journey if you used more than one credit your entire run is worthless.

>> No.4564620

Guys, ignore this asshole that always comes to these threads. Please, it's just way too obvious when this exact same person comes. We all know it's about the destination, intrinsic motivation and all that stuff, no need to reply to baits, he only wants attention. Just take the bumps and move on.

>> No.4564624

>>4564620
*about the journey
Sorry

>> No.4564629

So I have an honest question, what is it about touhou that makes other shmup fans hate it?

>> No.4564631

>>4564620
It's still true though, competitive videogames inherently attracts toxic people filled with jealousy and big egos.

>> No.4564632

>>4564629
probably just the large amount of waifufags who barely actually play the game if at all. same reason FE fans are butthurt about the new games

>> No.4564634

>>4564629
For one, it's horrendously paced. Lots of long stretches with absolutely nothing happening on the screen. Besides it showers you with extra lives and bombs. It's literally a console game.

>> No.4564635

>>4564631
i think you're one has the problem. seems like competition makes you insecure and you seem pretty bitter. also most people who play shooters aren't even competitive they just play for themselves. the people posting their scores and 1ccs and shit are a vocal minority.

>> No.4564637

>>4564170
I actually do suck cocks, I would appreciate if you didn’t say things like that

>> No.4564639

>>4564635
>seems like competition makes you insecure and you seem pretty bitter.
Yes that is true. Actually I haven't even boothed a shmup game in over 10 months, these days I mostly watch people playing them on twitch and call it a day. You see, I like the IDEA of shooting games more than the act of playing them.

>> No.4564645

>>4564639
This, why even play games when I can just watch them on youtube and feel just as fulfilled? I consider myself a videogame cuckold, it's the thinking man's fetish.

>> No.4564648

>>4564631
Where are they ITT (and on /vr/ in general), though?
>>4564629
I personally think these games are OK at best. The hate comes from these not really being up to arcade standards (they're made by a single guy) but for some stupid reason they've gathered the biggest fanbase of the genre just due to them featuring anime girls. The fanbase is so huge, probably most of it doesn't even touch the games and just engages with the fan made content.
The series probably would be very obscure PC-98 games if it wasn't for the anime stuff.
Also, the "LOL THEY'RE SO HARD" meme really kicks arcade shooter fans in the balls since they are substantially easier than the average arcade shooter and just goes to show how they haven't even touched them (yet they are praising Touhou).

>> No.4564652

>>4564648
>and on /vr/ in general
Surely you know about Cee?

>> No.4564653

>>4564652
That's just one notorious guy.

Forgot to mention 2hu overshadows much better doujin shooters like Cho Ren Sha.

And please, ignore the anti-arcade shitposer. I can still smell his shitty posting style here.

>> No.4564659

>>4564653
It's not just one elitist guy just like how it's not just one anti-arcade shitposter.

>> No.4564660

>>4564653
I now understand he's not even an anti-arcade shitposter. He's just really offended by competitive and/or skill-intensive things and the people who engage in them. I've seen lots of these people interacting with other competitive scenes. Not shmups though cause I suck at them personally and only play them casually, but I've seen this guy's equivalents in other kinds of games.

>> No.4564668

>>4564660
He said he's from Reddit and constantly mentions toxic masculinity, apparently he's a turbo feminist trying to subvert another male dominated subculture, I've seen plenty of these people before.

>> No.4564670

>>4564629
boring stage desgins

>> No.4564679

>>4564168
I thought the bullet curtain term came from Japan?

>> No.4564680

>>4564659
I haven't encountered much elitism at all on /vr/ outside from Cee. At least lately.
>>4564660
As >>4564668 says, it's one notorious guy with a very distinct posting style. He says the same shit all the time.
He's also said he's a /v/ crossposter and a Gen Z guy.

>> No.4564683

>>4564679
>bullet curtain
WAT

>> No.4564692

>>4564680
What information do we have on him? We know he's American, he's 19 years old, he posts on /v/ and Reddit and apparently he's never actually been on an arcade before.

>> No.4564707

>>4564692
Who cares, just shut up about him, don't reply to him, etc.

>> No.4564719

>>4564707
Well you're doing a horrible job at that.

>> No.4564720

>>4564683
Do you know what Danmaku is?

>> No.4564734

>>4564720
Apparently it's a term that originated in Touhou EoSD loading screen which is why most of the results you see when googling 弾幕 come from that game. And that's why you shouldn't use it.

>> No.4564735

>>4564720
There's bullet hell (a western term) and then there's danmaku / curtain fire (a Japanese one). No such thing as bullet curtain afaik.
I don't know where the danmaku crap came from though, it's way too associated with Touhou. I could be wrong but I think the Japanese just call STG the entire genre.

>> No.4564738

>>4564734
Fuck, I forgot it came from that. Thanks for reminding me why I never call these games danmaku.

>> No.4564751

>>4564213

Bulletvania

>> No.4564753

>>4564751
Bulletsouls

>> No.4564779 [DELETED] 

>>4564213
Just call them trash.

>> No.4564801

>>4564629
The first games are PC-98 shmups and they're okay for something on that hardware. Once it moved to PC in part 6 it's little tiny sprites on a crappy 3d effect that's supposed to be the "background". Every regular enemy is a stupid little angel or a pinwheel. The main focus of the game is drawn out boss battles with a small poorly animated sprite of an anime girl where you dodge multiple patterns of slow-moving rainbow bullets that fill up the entire screen.

>> No.4564806

>>4564801
Yeah that does suck, ZUN had this awesome Japanese and Asian mythology to drawn inspiration for monsters from but every enemy is a little girl in a dress.

>> No.4564853

>>4564629
I like Touhou. It got me into bullet hell. I don't really play em any more though.

I think part of it is resentment of normies who see one youtube video and think Perfect Cherry Blossom is the hardest game ever made. And in Japan, on the doujin scene it gets an absurd amount of attention compared to what people in this thread would argue are much better games.

Shoot the Bullet is worth a play at least, I'd argue. None of the pacing issues other anons alluded to, and the camera mechanic is really interesting.

>> No.4564896

>>4564801
>dodge multiple patterns of slow-moving rainbow bullets that fill up the entire screen

I think this is why I like touhou more than most shmups. I just like the slower pace, and if I’m being honest I think the bullet patterns are prettier than in most shmups.

I’m admittedly new to the genre, so far the other games I’ve played have been Mushihimesama, DonPachi, Ikaruga and Cho Ren Sha. Maybe that list is kinda baby’s first shmups, but like I said I’m new to the genre. A lot of these games seem very, very fast. Ikaruga in particular sort of feels more like you have to know what is coming and already know how to get around it. With touhou I really don’t need to have anything memorized, it’s possible to just wing it and actually do alright as long as you can recognize patterns. That’s my experience on Normal and Hard at any rate. To be honest I like it more this way, it makes it easier for the game to just be something I have fun with.

I totally get not liking the cheap production, but I like the simple backgrounds. Everything is always very clear (except Remilia fuck her and her red bullets and red background). Makes it easier not to get hit by some errant shot you don’t notice.

Call my taste shit if you want but I like what I like.

>> No.4565020

>>4564536
>Treasure quit
wat

They made Sin and Punishment 2 in 2009 and some licensed games on the 3DS five years ago, moreover Maegawa (Treasure's CEO) also teased an announcement for this year on Twitter

>> No.4565053

>>4564896
Try to download everything and check everything out. Try to not mind what the "community" finds good or else you'll be playing only Gradius 3 and Battle Garegga for the rest of your life.

>> No.4565208

>>4564896
Try Eden's Aegis and Blue Wish Resurrection Plus, they're good freeware shmups for Windows. http://www004.upp.so-net.ne.jp/x_xgameroom/Works/works.html

>> No.4565242

>>4564457
Bullet hell games are very fair. The bullets are usually slow, patterns have easy introductions, you have bombs if things get hairy, a single death means nothing for survival. Compare that to R Type which is full of beginner traps, memorization heavy level design and deaths which are so punishing you might as well reset. You can start up a CAVE game and get to like stage 4 in most of their games only with reactions.

>> No.4565307

>>4564853
>I like Touhou. It got me into bullet hell. I don't really play em any more though.
This is actually pretty common and the best thing Touhou has done for the community: easing players into the better arcade games.
>>4564896
It's OK, you're just still used to easier games. If at one point Touhou begins to bore you, try the harder arcade classics. Take it easy. What I take issue is with people that call Touhou the hardest shit ever or dismiss arcade shooters as easier because they have less bullets or stupid stuff like that.
>>4565020
What I meant is that they quit doing arcade STGs. S&P 2 is a cool game but not exactly the kind of game we're talking about, and the rest they've done has nothing to do. Even if you want to count S&P 2 then they quit 3 years earlier than Cave, which was my point.
>>4565053
I didn't think Gradius III was particularly praised, it's a derivative entry with some bullshirt parts and hitboxes. Garegga is and indeed it's not noob friendly at all. Your advice is cool, though.
>>4565242
This is true (which is why I said I consider these better for noobies than older games) except when you get to the final bosses they throw all of this out the window. Cave is bad for this.

>> No.4565318

>>4564168

90% of stg are actually impossible meme games that only masochists would enjoy

>it's not REALLY impossible!

It is if you're a somewhat regular person that doesn't want to sit in front of the same game, screens, patterns, levels, etc. for 12 hours every day

because if you're not doing that then you have no chance to actually full clear it

>> No.4565324

>>4565318
This meme again. You are completely wrong. Even good players don't practice that much, especially because it has massive diminishing returns after a while. If all you want is a clear, playing for an hour each day will net you most 1-alls in a matter of weeks. I like the genre because it's very good for short sessions. Playing for more than 2 hours wears me down and kills my concentration.

>> No.4565348

>>4564168
Don't play meme games if you can't handle meme names.

>> No.4565360

>>4564168

I'm actually ok with it as it makes me feel like I went thru hell and back.

>> No.4565412

Call it a top down third person shooter

>> No.4565417

>>4565324
Not a turbo autist sorry

>> No.4565425

>>4565324
DON'T reply to that guy, please. He only wants attention.

>> No.4565428

>>4565324
I just don't get why you have to bully people who use credits so much. What's wrong with using a few credits (not credit feeding)?

>> No.4565430

>>4565425
I'm gonna reply to him just to piss you off, see
>>4565318
I absolutely agree.

>> No.4565440

>>4564196
Ironic shitposting is still shitposting.

>> No.4565447

It's interesting how spaceships look distinctively phallic while penetrating a bullet barrage like an uterus. If you think about it a hiscore is like your penis size.

>> No.4565491

>>4565428
Not him, but most credit feeders waste dozens of credits. If you can beat games in under say 5 credits it's not that bad, I guess.
But credit feeding has given these games a very bad name and image over the years. Also, by continuing you are ignoring the scoring.

>> No.4565498

>>4565491
Dangun Feveron is the only score system that doesn't make me want to kill myself.

>> No.4565502

>>4565498
Dangun Feveron is amazing so it doesn't surprise me.
May I ask, what games have you tried playing for score?

>> No.4565516

>>4565502
Ketsui and Mushihime Original are fun, everything else is memorizing cancer with Psykyo medal chaining the exact moment when they are blinking being the absolute worse.

>> No.4565519

>>4565516
Every scoring system in these is memorization based in the end, if you dislike that try playing arcade puzzle games like Columns. Nothing against them, just saying.
For instance, in Dangun Feveron you have to memorize enemy formations so you can kill them faster and thus drop more disco guys to grab.

>> No.4565525

>>4565519
While it's true, at least it doesn't horribly punishes you for not memorizing every single hidden bee locations, enemy formation or gem heads spawn points. I like having a bit of leeway.

>> No.4565527

>>4565519
I don't get why people lash out at Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga for being memorizers when every single shmup scoring does the exact same shit.

>> No.4565531

>>4565525
Sure, but in the end it's the same, you have to memorize. The fact that you feel less punished by how its scoring is presented doesn't make it less memorization based, if you try to top the highest scores every one of these is memorization.
>>4565527
I haven't played those but yes, exactly. Scoring by nature is memorization based unless the game is RNG based as the puzzle genre I just mentioned.
I wouldn't call it shit, though. It's impossible to avoid, and if memorization is not needed for survival then for me it's OK, scoring is there for replay value.

>> No.4565537

I'll further explain:
You may feel bad when missing bees because it's presented in an obvious way.
In Dangun Feveron it's not that easy to tell if you are maximizing the disco guy count.
But in the end, when you see the results it's all the same.

>> No.4565540

>>4565537
Also, chain medals are the same. It may feel terrible to drop them to some, but again, even if the scoring is not that obviously represented when you care about getting a WR or PB every game (shooters) is the same kind of memory test (with execution, of course).

>> No.4565541

>>4565531
You see, I don't care about the numbers, Yagawa games trained me to ignore medals as they fall off the screen. But in Dangun the way the little guys bounce back up off the bottom of the screen and they play a deliciously addictive sound upon collection actually makes me want to collect them even though I couldn't care less about my final score. Collecting little guys just feels good, man.

>> No.4565547

>>4565541
I feel the same way about being able to enjoy the scoring systems while playing without needing to even check the number of the score.
However, in that case, you could argue you could just ignore the bees in DoDonPachi and just try to chain the enemies as much as you can if you enjoy that aspect. This was an example but there could be many more.
Just focus on what you personally enjoy, if bees are an element you dislike then fuck them.

>> No.4565570

And before some come complaining: DDP is designed around the chaining so it can be possible and fun. You could try chaining other games that aren't based around this but it wouldn't be the same (maybe even impossible), and you wouldn't have a UI that tells you when you're breaking the chain.
So it's valid to play just for the chaining while ignoring the rest of the scoring elements (like the bees). I don't do this myself but I just wanted to help this other anon to have fun with more games in their own ways.

>> No.4565572

>>4565570
I mean, you could just work on trying to beat your max chain PB or even the WR while ignoring the rest of the scoring.

>> No.4565579

>>4565572
>or even the WR
No, fuck that. I have a life outside of stupid children's games.

>> No.4565589
File: 30 KB, 499x404, Erthem~1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4565589

>>4564168
say the Faggots Hell lord

>> No.4565597

>>4565579
Sure, I don't bother with that myself either, but some are.

This stuff is like when people say they like to beat 100% some non-arcade games except for a tedious optional part which ruins their experience and makes them not want to replay the whole thing. Well, duh, why not just play a game for the stuff you enjoy about it and ignore the optional parts that aren't appealing to you? I've never understood this mentality.

>> No.4565598

>>4565597
*some are into that.

>> No.4565627

>>4564168

What would a bullet heaven game be like?

>> No.4565631

>>4565627
I think that would be a more appropriate term for the sub-genre if anything.

>> No.4565651

>>4565516
>everything else is memorizing cancer
Completely wrong. Even Psikyo have Dragon Blaze which is all about maximizing the amount of coins you collect and missing a few won't destroy your score. From the other CAVE games, there's Esprade, Espgaluda, Progear, and Deathsmiles all of which allow you to make mistakes without severe punishment. It's only Dodonpachi that is particularly brutal with its chaining. Mushihimesama Original scoring is nearly non existent, it's about never dying/bombing and doing a little bit of milking, primarily on stage 2. Furthermore, you can get solid scores in Dodonpachi's first loop without memorizing the bees.

>> No.4565658

>>4565651
If anything medal chaining is less memory based since you've got to react to when they drop and stuff unless you have a VERY tight route of enemies killed.

>> No.4565670

>>4565597
It's just an empty excuse. In reality there are countless ways to play for score that do NOT need WR-level optimizations that these people always bring up. Even DDP-style chaining, which is a pretty extreme system, allows you to simply focus on small improvements in your chaining instead of restarting the game every time you break it.

>> No.4565684

>>4565670
Reset syndrome is cancer indeed, I never do stuff like that myself. I also don't save state practice even if I see the benefits to that.

>> No.4565695

>>4565684
Yeah, it's a shit thing to deal with and being too focused on a scoring goal makes it so much worse. I think a good feature shmups could have is a long-term performance graph, so players can see their average scores/survival stats and see how they improve over time, that would help give people some perspective I think.

>> No.4565701

>>4565695
Some may get anxious when having a bad streak, I guess. And it's not like you can't track this stuff down yourself easily if you so desire.

>> No.4566649

>>4565651
Are you saying spawning gem heads locations in gunbird totally NOT memorizing based? Did you even play the games, bro?
That's precisely the reason why I like Mushihime Original, you just collect gems. That's it.

Score = garbage.

>> No.4566658

>>4565651
>Deathsmiles
I rather save my special shot as a make-shift bomb than use it for score. Not that I need it anyway because Deathsmiles is easy casual lolicon shit.

>> No.4566704

I don't think you infantile grandpas understand the main criticism about score systems, after the whole Todd Rodgers and Twin Galaxies scandal World Records can easily be faked and essentially mean nothing. You're not actually competing against the world, you're competing with a dozen other guys on an extremely specific niche hobby nobody else cares about.

>> No.4566838

>>4566649
>Are you saying spawning gem heads locations in gunbird totally NOT memorizing based?
No, never said anything about Gunbird at all. But don't worry, you can get decent scores without ever bothering with gem heads.
>That's precisely the reason why I like Mushihime Original, you just collect gems. That's it.
Yes a simple scoring system for a simple mind, almost cute really

>> No.4566842

>>4566838
I don't think you understood my main point, I find hard to find a reason to score high, large numbers alone aren't enough to keep my interest and nobody outside of an extremely small community cares about world records.
Ehh, what's the point of scores if you can easily reach both extends by just no dying and scoring is actually detrimental for survival anyway.

>> No.4566846
File: 91 KB, 640x360, snapshot.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4566846

>> No.4566851

>>4566838
I mean sure point blanking in Ketsui for value 5 chips feels satisfying but by the point you reach stage 5 you'll feel overwhelmed and survival takes priority anyway. And if you continue your score is meaningless either way so survival is always most important. At least mushihime original doesn't do that shit.

>> No.4566857

>>4566842
>>4566851
It's called fun. Whatever happened to playing for fun instead of in-game rewards or attention from others?

>> No.4566860

>>4566857
100% agreed which is exactly what I've been saying all this time. What about Dragon Blaze though what makes it not memorization based?

>> No.4566863

>>4566860
It doesn't have multipliers or anything else you can drop from small mistakes, the score comes almost entirely from how well you time your dragon shots, pick up the coins and get tech bonuses. There is a gem head like system but again, its entirely possible to get a good score without it.

>> No.4566869

>>4566863
>There is a gem head like system but again,
Oh, so it IS memorization after all. It's also possible to get a good score by using continues but you ruled that out, you little bitch.

>> No.4566873

>>4566658
>Deathsmiles is easy casual lolicon shit
Level 3 + Canyon will be more than enough to leave you with a sore asshole, though there's level 999 mode too. It's only casual if you play easy mode.

>> No.4566875

>>4566869
>It's also possible to get a good score by using continues
No it isn't, continuing resets your score.

>> No.4566893

>>4565447
and what's more interesting is that these hiscore penises are actually inversely proportional to the actual penises of the players

>> No.4566897

>>4566893
no wonder asians are the best players lenny face

>> No.4566929

>>4566704
>>4566842
Nah, most here are just into PB stuff or just the intrinsic enjoyment of how the scoring works in some games (see: the Dangun Feveron poster).
>>4566649
Memorizing for a better score is not for you; that's OK. As I said, if you dislike that try arcade puzzle games for score.
>>4566851
Sure, scoring is there for when the time comes and you are no longer overwhelmed even in that staged due to having memorized it. It's just for lasting appeal.
>>4566869
C'mon, really, stop complaining that these are memorization based, it's inevitable in shooters. Even the simplest "kill enemies for a flat score" just means you have to memorize enemy formations so you never miss an enemy to get the best score possible. Play RNG based arcades like puzzles or just accept how these have to be by design.

>> No.4566938
File: 577 KB, 600x580, 2ec.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4566938

>>4566929
You're such a gem, keep it up.

>> No.4566951

>>4566897
>lenny face
how did it feel to type that out

>> No.4566962

>>4566951
good. I enjoy lenny faces unironically

>> No.4566982

>>4566929
>it's inevitable in shooters
More like it's inevitable in anything that demands skill, even rng based action-puzzle games involve memorization, see Puyo Puyo patterns

>> No.4567030

>>4566929
>>4566982
is there any shooter that is less memorization-based than Zanac?

>> No.4567272

>>4567030
credit feeding is less memorization based, since the stakes are so low

>> No.4567281

>>4567272
assuming you're not credit feeding though. Zanac has no continues

>> No.4567287

>>4567281
Are you talking of the Playstation remake?

>> No.4567293

>>4567287
the playstation remake does let you continue, you can't on FDS or NES though. I guess it's acceptable to continue on Zanac NEO since it's a new game and may have been designed around it. But I was thinking of the FDS/NES versions, not the PS1 version.

>> No.4567295

>>4567293
I thought the best version was on MSX.

>> No.4567298

>>4567295
I haven't played it

>> No.4567308

>>4564168
Personally I love ASSFAGGOTS, and I'm glad there's nothing pejorative about the name.

>> No.4567316

>>4567308
Aeon of Strife Styled Fortress Assault Game Going On Two Sides

>> No.4567473

>>4566938
I don't get what you're trying to say, buddy.
>>4567272
You only need to memorize what each button does so you can keep continuing and beat the bosses (don't forget where the fire button is on your keyboard!). If the game features time out for the bosses like Mars Matrix then the only thing you need to do is insert coins and press continue every few seconds. I know your post was ironic but I thought writing this down would be fun.
>>4567308
It's better than the usual VERY generic name they give those shitty games.

>> No.4567504

>>4567473
Don't most shmups feature time outs? It's the only way I can beat most bosses in Gradius 3.

>> No.4567638

>>4567504
Some very popular ones like from Cave don't IIRC.

>> No.4567748

>>4564213
cinematic spaceship shooter

>> No.4567764

>>4567748
I know this is ironic but that's interestingly more appropiate for stuff like Freespace, even if I like the games.

>> No.4567780

What should we call them instead?
Firework Shooters?
Bullet Weavers?
Busy Shmups (Bshmups)?
Falling Petals?
Don't Blinkers?

>> No.4567782

>>4567780
Bullet Weaver is MUCH better, actually. It's pretty nice. It's what you mostly do in these, maneuver through seas of bullets (micrododging).

>> No.4567783

>>4564213
Protect My Tiny Precious Heart

>> No.4567787

>>4567782
That just goes to show how pathetic these modern games are, you do a lot of dodging and very little actual shooting

>> No.4567806

>>4567787
For survival, sure, particularly if you pick a ship that covers the screen with the shorts. These games are however more built around scoring, and that's where knowing how and where to shoot come into play (like the DDP chaining stuff).
However, prioritizing targets to kill faster before they spit too many bullets also helps.

>> No.4567858

>>4567787
You're shooting all the time, though. When it comes to aiming then shmups can't match fps and rail/cabal shooters anyway, better focus on what they are the best at which is completely free unrestricted movement.

>> No.4567865

>>4567858
Very nice point. The movement is the most appealing thing to me, though I prefer moving very fast while avoiding not as many but faster bullets (think Truxton and Dangun Feveron).

>> No.4567886

>>4567858
>You're shooting all the time, though.
Sure but you don't even have to aim your shots. Your spread wipes out half the screen and boss sprites take over 95% of the playfield, you'd actually have to TRY HARD to miss your shots. Trash games.

>> No.4567887

>>4567865
The whole "aiming" thing is exaggerated by idiots anyway. In Gradius you have a small army of options covering the whole screen with bullets/lasers including above, below and even behind you. R-Type has the DNA shot which covers a third of the screen or the laser which bounces all over the place. The games have always been about movement over shooting. Even the most popular mechanic, point blanking, has to do with movement more than shooting.

>> No.4567892

>>4567887
But you realize Gradius has an alien ship that takes away your options after a while. You probably know that already, I'm just being a hungry bitch.

>> No.4567898

>>4567886
And? If you want challenging aiming you can go play rail shooters, these games are all about movement with shooting being a matter of prioritizing targets and maximizing damage output rather than just aiming precisely.

>> No.4567906

>>4567892
Yeah but that's something you plan your run around

>> No.4567910

>>4567898
>And? If you want challenging aiming you can go play rail shooters,
Or you can play classic shooters. You know, like 1943 and Galaxian.

>> No.4567917

>>4567910
Ah yes, 1943 and Galaxian, the absolute peak of vertical shooters. 1943 isn't even far off from Psikyo games anyway, and both of those have far less complex aiming than rail/cabal shooters or even twin sticks.

>> No.4567939

>>4567887
>In Gradius you have a small army of options covering the whole screen with bullets/lasers including above, below and even behind you
And to use it properly you need to aim and place them properly, way to prove you haven't played Gradius.

>> No.4567947

>>4567939
Positioning your options preemptively isn't the same as "aiming" especially with how damn sloppy you can be with it thanks to the sheer firepower available to you, and focusing their fire for powerful enemies isn't really aiming either

>> No.4567952

>>4567947
Just because aiming is related to movement doesn't mean it's less important, retard. One thing is moving just to dodge, another thing is moving for offensive purpose.

>> No.4567953

>>4564168
>getting this autistic over a simple name
Get a grip

>> No.4567959

>>4567952
By those standards point blanking and focus shot mechanics are "aiming" too, but those are very low standards to go by

>> No.4567971

>>4567959
Nah you just are too retarded to realize that both are just as important

>> No.4567986

>>4567971
What a vapid post. Yes to some degree both are important (though you could make a very deep game solely about dodging if you wished), the degree is under discussion here. Point blanking for instance could technically be considered "aiming" but it's more about damage output maximization, same as focusing your options. Maximizing your damage output is extremely important in bullet hells, especially more routing intensive ones like Psikyo.

>> No.4567994

>>4567986
Point blanking isn't all there is to shmups you stupid fuck, if you aim wrong and leave one tiny enemy lying around then you can be fucked no matter how good you are at dodging. Or take DDP for example, if you aim wrong and kill one more or less enemy than intended your chain can be pretty much ruined, movement in these games isn't just for dodging but for aiming as well.

>> No.4568020

>>4567994
Oh ok so I gave the wrong impression. That's my point. The context of the discussion is about people who say old school shooters have "aiming" while bullet hell ones don't. What I've been trying to demonstrate is that bullet hell shooters have plenty of what they call "aiming". To consider the options in Gradius aiming but positioning your ship for point blanking not aiming is a clear double standard.

>> No.4568026

>>4568020
>To consider the options in Gradius aiming but positioning your ship for point blanking not aiming is a clear double standard.
It's both honestly, take Gradius III's Moai boss for example, if you don't position the options correctly you will not damage the boss at all, it's not a damage problem it's an aiming problem.
Generally games with narrow shot have more focus on aiming than games with narrow shot, but Gradius style options requires very detailed aiming by movement as well

>> No.4568030

>>4568026
than games with wide shot*

>> No.4568039

>>4567994
MUH CHAIN
Nobody cares about your (cheated) hiscores you fag.

>> No.4568041

>>4568026
Yeah, considering both aiming is something I can agree with despite a previous post. I think it really comes down to how punishing the games are. Psikyo games which I've mentioned don't quite have weak points like the moais, but due to how fast and dangerous some of the enemies are leaving them alive is pretty much a guaranteed death and in that way they're even more dangerous than moai enemies. CAVE-style bullet hell games might seem to not have aiming to a newbie because they allow for a wider variety of playstyles, but the aiming elements really become prominent as the games get harder or you play for score.

>> No.4568062

You fags sure spend a lot of time mentally masturbating over shit nobody cares about, you know that? LMAO now if only you were as good at games as you are at talking B U L L S H I T

>> No.4568147

>>4567886
I feel you since my favorite shooters are Toaplan shooters from roughly 87-92. But these are games mostly focused on tighter dodging, nothing wrong with that, you have plenty of shooters where you need to be more careful with your shots such as Flying Shark, it's nice to have some variety.
>>4567887
Yes, movement and avoiding stuff is the name of the game in these. In a lot of these, however, spreading your shots so you can focus mostly on dodging means sacrificing power. I'll explain:
In Gradius, the laser is much more powerful and better against most bosses than the doubles.
In Toaplan style shooters where you can switch between a number of shots on the fly by catching colored power-ups, again, you usually have the option between choosing focused and strong and spread yet weaker. Mahou Daisakusen even has three archetipes: straight, spread and homing.
Quite a few later bullet hells also feature a straight laser by holding the fire button. If you use the spread shot by tapping you're dealing a LOT less damage to the boss and thus have to endure a lot more dodging, you have to try to get to the center and not get cornered to deal more damage per second. Also, in DDP you score by lasering the boss constantly without ever using the wider shot (you can get extra lives with this).
Some non-retro bullet hells ditch this balance a bit but it's there.
>>4567917
You can only move in 2 directions and shoot a bullet at a time in Galaxian, like no shit lol It's a similar concept but sacrificing the nice movement with very simple enemies and having to very carefully shoot.
>>4567953
Chill, it's just a thought and to open some interesting discussion. At least it isn't a thread you see repeated every weak or stuff like that.
>>4568062
Speak for yourself, we clearly care about this. This "it's not popular so who cares" mentality is just cancer.

>> No.4568835

>>4564236
Only a small minority of people playing TGM3 use SRS. The ARS community is much larger and much more competitive.

>>
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