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/vr/ - Retro Games


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4559881 No.4559881 [Reply] [Original]

Which was the superior genre: vertical, or horizontal shooters?

>> No.4559902

>>4559881
Vertical. It's just easier to read and understand the screen that way.

>> No.4559907

>>4559902
Vertical 'tate

>> No.4559916

I don't know what's supposed to be the best, but I usually prefer horizontal shooters.

>> No.4559920

>>4559881
diagonal like dem levels between levels in vanguard

>> No.4559924

Horizontal shooters tend to have better/more varied and intricate stage design. Most vertical shooters, especially post Cave, are all barren stages with similar geometric bullet patterns between games. Where as look at something like Gradius V or the Parodius games and look at all of the level gimmicks and such

That's more my thing

>> No.4559958

>>4559881
This is way too broad. Just within verts alone we have all these eras:
Single screen / No scrolling era
Toaplan era
Post-Toaplan Manic era
Danmaku era

Not to mention there are plenty of games that break traditions such as the Treasure shooters which implement elements of both general styles into either the horizontal or vertical perspective.

If we only speak about the general idea of a vertical and a horizontal shooter then it's entirely based on personal taste.
Horizontal games are usually more interesting to play just for survival with all the stage design.
While vertical ones tend to have a longer lasting appeal for those who want to stick to the game thanks to more focus on complex scoring.
Even then, you see it's hard to generalize.

>> No.4559974
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4559974

>>4559881
3D shooters desu

>> No.4560094

>>4559881
horizontal. they have better level design and can use gravity for projectiles

>> No.4560101

>>4559881
Horizontal shooter implies asymmetrical hitbox and the presence of gravity, which implies parabolic trajectories for some of the projectiles. Both make the game more complex than it would be otherwise (as in vertical shooters).

>> No.4560104

>>4560094
>can use gravity for projectiles
What are verts with attacks that shoot ground enemies (who will avoid your aerial shots)? Or those that have travelling time to their bombs? Also, check out Terra Diver for a vert with background depth in the mechanics. Dat stage 3.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09VldlQIilw

>> No.4560106

I prefer horizontal, I don't want to have to rotate my TV

>> No.4560107

>>4560101
On the other hand, not only are vertical dimensions shorter than horizontal ones for the most part, but asymmetry in projectile patterns due to presence of gravity give the top of the screen tactical advantage over the bottom of the screen, making it the way to go. This results in very restricted movement on the part of the player.
Vertical shooters use screen space much more evenly in general.

>> No.4560115

What are the horizontal shooters which use the gravity (in relation to projectiles and whatnot) the most?

>> No.4560136

>>4560106
You don't HAVE to, man.
>>4560107
That's a nice point. This is assuming the typical hori though, not stuff like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxtFfEdjsHc
which is essentially your typical vert bullet hell but in an horizontal perspective.
>>4560115
The Gradius and Parodius series features a lot of different missiles.

>> No.4560138

>>4559881

I'm better at vertical, though arguably horizontal has better games.

>> No.4560141

>>4560115
I recall there being a character in Sexy Parodius that has an arcing projectile

>> No.4560145

Is it me or shmup threads on /vr/ are always fucking cringy? You fags don't even pretend you know what you're talking about.

>> No.4560149

>>4560145
There's always a bit of trolling in arcade threads, some of the cringy stuff may be the anti-arcade shitposter falseflagging.
/vr/ is not huge into these games however, so I see your point.

>> No.4560154

>>4560145
>>4560149
What are you talking about? We have the greatest superplayers in the world here, such as cee and icycalm.

>> No.4560156

>>4560145
Enlighten us then.

>> No.4560158

>>4560154
I'm the second guy. I was saying that the board in general is not very big into shooters. There are a bunch of guys that are, but not everyone. So it's not so strange to see some less informed posts here, this community is broader.

>> No.4560161

>>4560149
>/vr/ is not huge into these games however,
That isn't true, arcade threads are more successful than individual game threads. You want to be recognized by gen Z kids while at the same time actively tries to keep them out of your lawn, you clearly suffer from small penis syndrome.

>> No.4560164

>>4560161
The few arcade fans are quite dedicated, that's what you're seeing. But in sheer number of threads and posters it's not a majority.
Also, shooters aren't the only arcades. We're talking about shooters here. Don't count stuff like the Fightcade thread for this, it's not the same community (even if I post in both since I like most arcade games).

>> No.4560190

Almost all my favourites are vertical so I'll go with that. The level design in horizontal shooters is pretty underwhelming. Straightforward memorization focused levels with simple gimmicks here and there. More developers should have followed the Gradius IV idea of making everything interactive. That's actually awesome and something you won't ever get in games without levels.

>> No.4560194

>>4560190
Gradius IV came very late into the show, in 1999. By this point the older hori style had become phased out by the more popular bullet hell verts. They enjoyed much more development during that time so it's easy to see why they tend to be more advanced or polished on average.

>> No.4560225

>>4560194
I guess what I'm saying is that I wish they developed this sooner before dying off. It's very natural too, lots of early games had interactive elements like the re-appearing walls and shit.

>> No.4560229

>>4560225
Cool gimmicks aren't as good at grabbing repeating players, which is what the shooter genre evolved to cater just to survive: complex scoring systems so that experts would replay the games over and over.
Players only interested in beating them were getting rare, mostly playing other genres or home games.

>> No.4560232

Horizontal shooters always have physical obstacles and static scrolling environments. In vert shooters the actual land and structures tend to be on a different plane than the plane, the environment you move through is actually the formations of enemies and their bullets that you encounter, which scroll along with you at carefully designed ratio differences of velocity. Those horizontal ones would have moments where the environment would lock in place and the game becomes a claustrophobia simulator while you fight something that's only difficult because of the environmental advantage it has over you and the fact that if the two of you touch ships the enemy will always destroy yours. This is also why Ikaruga is shit and I don't like it.

Rail-shooters might be the best, it's impossible to get stuck in place and get crushed or something in a rail shooter, so how could you feel claustrophobic? It's nothing but pure combat and evasion all the way.

>> No.4560236

>>4560232
>always
Dude... I even posted a game that wasn't like that here (Progear).

>> No.4560243

>>4560229
I don't mean cool gimmicks. What I'm talking about is the bits of level design that change depending on your actions, like the bubbles or those stretchy veins in Gradius IV. They're complex and very dynamic, with a lot of possible scenarios resulting from minor changes in how you play. Then you add a great rank system, options which already offer quite a lot of depth by themselves, and some cool special weapons like the bomb you can fling with movement and you've got some really awesome stuff. Don't even need complex scoring when the base game is that interesting.

>> No.4560250

>>4560243
>Don't even need complex scoring when the base game is that interesting.
You're probably right but I guess it just wasn't as profitable anymore, the remaining shooting players were there for scoring.

>> No.4560254

Horizontal, vertical is usually just garbage with scenery scrolling under it.

>> No.4560258

>>4560254
I don't agree but you reminded me of Cho Ren Sha, which is a cool game but has the same exact background all the time

>> No.4560283

>>4560258
Anybody who doesn't like ChoRenSha or Judgement Silversword needs to stop playing videogames forever.

>> No.4560286

>>4560283
I like the game, though. Just pointing that out.

>> No.4560289
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4560289

>>4560283
silversword is too hard

>> No.4560295

>>4560289
It's actually too hard for me to beat too, I could only make it to stage 27 on one credit even on normal mode, until my gamepad wore out completely and I had to stop and lost my skill.

But it was one of the greatest games of my life while I played it. Every time I died, I understood; I was the one who had failed this beautiful game. The game never did anything wrong, and I loved the perfect minimalism of it's math and graphics.

but Dicing Knight is more comfy

>> No.4560296

None because shmups absolute suck.

>> No.4560304

>>4560289
Mashing the buttons is harder than the challenges

>> No.4560305

>>4560296
This. People who use videogames as a substitute for real life accomplishments are sad and pathetic.

>> No.4560309

>>4560305
Everyone does, it's either that or escapism which is equally as sad. That's the entire point of video games, they stimulate you in the same ways real accomplishments do, just in a less severe way most of the time.

>> No.4560312

>>4560305
projecting pretty hard buddy, did anyone even bring that stuff up

personally I feel more positively abut my gaming achievements than my real life achievements, probably because they're things that I chose by myself and for myself and I'm the only one who cares about them, and I did them and I had fun doing them and was proud of myself.

doing things in real life for other people and achieving shit just to prove yourself sucks man, it's like a job

>> No.4560317

Guys, daily reminder to ignore the anti-arcade shitposter.

>> No.4560324

>>4560317
I'm gonna give him all my (You)s and there's nothing you can do about it !!!

>>4560296
>>4560296
>>4560296
>>4560296
>>4560296
>>4560296

>> No.4560326

>>4560324
He's already admitted he does this stuff for attention. Just enjoy his bumps and ignore him.

>> No.4560329

>>4560232
>Those horizontal ones would have moments where the environment would lock in place and the game becomes a claustrophobia simulator while you fight something that's only difficult because of the environmental advantage it has over you

But that's the best part and why I prefer horizontal shooters. Gradius V is my favorite shmup for this very reason. I mean you have a level with liquid physics, in a structure that tilts and turns while you have to find cover from flowing water. You have an asteroid field stage with meteors that dynamically collide and bounce off one another. There's the classic bio level where the walls pulse and contract and you have to shoot through respawning flesh

Makes every level feel fresh and unique and tense and it's not something I've found most vertical shooters even come close to

>> No.4560332

>>4560329
Gradius V, as with the other Treasure games, tries to combine the terrain elements of horis with the patterns and hitboxes of bullet hell verts (also the scoring, though not as much in GV since it's a made for console game). I guess this is part of why they have a big following in the fanbase.
Some players, however, hate the terrain as you've seen ITT and surely in other places. Others are bored with just enemy formation and bullet patterns and don't find scoring motivating.

>> No.4560386

>>4560332
well yeah, I don't like bondage, I like being able to breath

>> No.4560451

>>4560250
Yeah, it's too little too late. What I like about the basic gameplay of bullet hells is that the sense player agency when dodging. There are lots of patterns that are complex, aimed and slow enough to have overlap. So depending on how you move, the attacks can open up into a smooth clear path, become a wall you can't pass or anything in between. Most horis can't quite capture that aspect because the levels aren't interactive, the bullet patterns are simple and misdirection/streaming is simplified by things like walls. In the end I feel like I'm at the mercy of a prebuilt route more than in bullet hells, even though in the end it's just an illusion either way. I don't know how important this feeling is to most players, but it's definitely one of the most enjoyable aspects of their design outside of scoring.

>> No.4560621
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4560621

>>4559881
They're both awesome. Though, I might be biased because I'm playing Salamander right now.

>> No.4560773

>>4559881
Horizontal shooters are better suited for televisions so they tend to be more playable, but an arcade cabinet with a portrait screen makes it a non-issue.

>> No.4561068

>>4560386
Bullet hell verts can be as claustrophobic. Stuff like the later half and second loop in DDP limit your movement a lot by having to maneuver in a sea of bullets. Micrododging is not that different feeling from squeezing through terrain.
I prefer Toaplan games myself though where this isn't an issue and it's mostly pure macrododging fun.
>>4560451
Have you played Progear? Essentially a horizontally oriented bullet hell style game.
>>4560621
My boy. Except for the last stretch (the speed memorization part) this game is balling.
>>4560773
I've never had a big issue with playing verts with black bars or stuff like that on the sides.

>> No.4561364

>>4561068
>Have you played Progear? Essentially a horizontally oriented bullet hell style game.

Yes, it's good in theory, but something about it put me off. Maybe it's what Ikeda said about those types of patterns being harder to dodge horizontally. Deathsmiles feels more natural, and I really like the familliar that eats up death bullets, it's almost like an evolution of R-Type.

But to be clear, when I mentioned horizontal shooters, I meant the terrain-based ones rather than horizontal bullet hell games. People should really have used the same distinction japs did and called them "terrain shooters" instead of just horizontal shooters.

>> No.4561391

The best shmup is Darius Gaiden so therfore vertical is the best

>> No.4561428
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4561428

>>4559881
well one of the best ones got both

>> No.4561473

>>4561364
What do you call the verts from Treasure, then?
>>4561428
Axelay has the typical hori feel even in the vertical stages, much like Salamander.

>> No.4561686

>>4561473
>What do you call the verts from Treasure, then?
Exceptions to the rule.

>> No.4561697

>>4561686
Big exceptions, then. Just a thought: I've noticed that made for console shooters were a bit more "experimental" in terms of mixing up vert/hori conventions from what I've seen, such as some of the Compile games or Blast Wind.

>> No.4561737

Vertical is typically more challenging.

Horizontal is typically more fun.

A matter of taste, honestly.

Horizontal shooters have become rare because the sort of player who'd choose them over vertical ones is now most likely just going to be playing a first or third person shooter instead.

>> No.4561741

>>4561737
Challenge can also be fun so I don't get your point.
Instead of saying "Horizontal is typically more fun" as a buzzword here, I'd say it'd be better to specify some more.
Horizontal is typically more varied and gimmicky, which is fun for more casual audiences (as you're alluding), those who didn't care about scoring that much.
However, it's not like Gradius III is easy at ALL and this game belongs to one of the biggest hori franchises. The R-Type series, even if easier when memorized, is also very hard. Darius Gaiden has some pretty unforgiving patterns as well.

>> No.4561970

I prefer overhead shooters. Take that you tate shmup lumber sexual hipster retards.

>> No.4561972

>>4561970
Why insult, overhead shooters are awesome as well, like OutZone and FixEight. They can be "tate" too, so I don't get where you're coming from.

>> No.4561998

>>4561972

sometimes i don't remember where i am coming from either, then i just walk into a random direction and hope the villagers speak my language :s

>> No.4562042

OH!

>> No.4562319

>>4562042
Yes?

>> No.4562342

>>4561428
Which reminds me how much better the game would be as full hori, Konami just isn't that good at vertical

>> No.4562383
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4562383

Vertical and only vertical.
Horizontal shooters feel unnatural to me.
>forward
>backward
>up
>down
>world is being dragged back while you float
That's some eldritch shit.

>> No.4562606

Are there any vertical shmups with a focus on stage design/terrain ala Gradius? I've played the Final Boss demo and it's pretty much what I'm looking for, but it's just a demo and left me wanting more

>> No.4562664

>>4559881
Horizontal, no fucking contest. Play some Thunderforce III and IV and accept forever that horizontal shits sideways into vertical's throat.

>> No.4562715

>>4562664
both those games not only are extremely casual but have terrible scoring

>> No.4562723

>>4562715
Mania mode is pretty hard, brah.

>> No.4562724

>>4562715
all horizontals have terrible scoring

>> No.4562727

>>4562724
not deathsmiles

>> No.4562729

>>4562606
The Image Fight games are the closest I know of, but they also have a lot of stages without terrain.

>> No.4562739
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4562739

Vertical.

>> No.4562743

>>4562715
>scoring
Sometimes I forget this board is infested with tryhards looking for sense of genuine accomplishment and (pfft) bragging rights. They're great games if you're not trying to use them to boost your ego

>> No.4562768

>>4562743
scoring adds a whole new layer of complexity and depth to a shmup

i couldn't care less what other fags thought of my scores, what matters is my satisfaction of getting a new personal high score, something no-skill tards like yourself will never understand

>> No.4562769

>>4562768
Joke's on you I have a world record.

>> No.4562983

>>4562606
I've mentioned a few ITT.
Ikaruga, Radiant Silvergun, Blast Wind, MUSHA Aleste.
>>4562664
I like them but they don't "shit" on verticals in any way, they have a different appeal.

>> No.4562989

I was going to say they are equal to me but I realized I finished way more horizontal ones.

>> No.4563005

>>4559881
>>4559902
I prefer horizontal as I love the Gradius/R-Type games but faster paced shooters work better as vertical imo

>> No.4563017

>>4562724
>all horizontals have terrible scoring
battle traverse.

>>4562727
>not deathsmiles
the only cave hori that doesn't have shit scoring is progear.

>> No.4563629

>>4563005
>faster paced shooters
Can you feel it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ-D6kaQlFo

>> No.4563641

I probably prefer verts but horizontals have more interesting levels. When vertical shooters try to do terrain it's terrible

>> No.4563652

>>4563641
>Image fight
>terrible
nah

>> No.4563660

>>4563017
Battle Traverse is just a vert that's been rotated.

>> No.4563661

>>4563641
As I've said here before, they just a different appeal. They're both very good.

>> No.4563716

Philosoma for ps1 has vertical, horizontal, and 3d starfox-like segments. It's a pretty interesting game. It's not the hardest or most original shmup out there, but it's pretty fun.

>> No.4563724

>>4563716
I vastly prefer, say, Gradius Gaiden in the made for console PS1 shooter library.
Though Philosoma isn't that bad.

>> No.4563729
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4563729

>>4559881
voting "omnidirectional" just to be an obnoxious contrarian fuck

>> No.4563736

>>4563729
Nah, physics-based shmups like Asteroids and Sub-Terrania.

If you truly wanted to be contrarian you could have said euroshmups > everything, though.

>> No.4563756

>>4563736
>Nah, physics-based shmups like Asteroids and Sub-Terrania.

Solar Jetman on NES is a pretty good physics based ordeal. It's kind of amazing how good the game and physics feel being on NES.

>> No.4563761

>>4563756
>Jetman
You reminded me of this cool sounding stuff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqjWQwUPcIc

>> No.4563895
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4563895

>>4559974
My nigga.

>> No.4563914

I prefer backwards scrollers (at 18:33) https://youtu.be/ZDNCqb7QRwQ?t=18m33s

>> No.4563941

>>4563914
>no 40:20
step it up

>> No.4563945

>>4563941
Yeah, I haven't reached that part myself. Not like it's an easy task at all, mind you.

>> No.4565975

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETiGBbZeKiU

dimahoo forever

>> No.4565981

>>4565975
The game is very cool though it's definitely hard to get used to how it works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtChFOH8opk
One of the few tate CPS-2 games, right?

>> No.4565989

Also, it has one of the most hilariously named tracks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwU-24sWZTY