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/vr/ - Retro Games

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453174 No.453174 [Reply] [Original]

Why the Japanase computer market isolated itself?

>> No.453205

What do you mean isolated itself?

>> No.453206

>>453174
Think about your grammar then remake your thread

>> No.453223

>>453174
Computers have historically been isolated markets. With a few exceptions, most machines used by Euros were Euro brands like Amstrad and most used by Japanese were Japanese brands and most used by Americans were American brands.

>> No.453238

Because of their writing system. No support for Japanese text on Western computers back then.

>> No.453243

In the US, there was already competition between Apple, Atari, Commodore, and IBM.

We didn't need and could not afford to have NEC, Sharp, Fujitsu, Panasonic, Sony machines fuck everything up.

>> No.453254

>>453243
The computer market actually crashed in the mid-80s due to too many competing architectures.

>> No.453264

>>453174
I wuld simply assume the national power grid standards would automatically isolate certain electronic markets

>> No.453271

>>453264
That didn't stop Commodore (an American company) from selling millions of computers in Europe

>> No.453696

>>453206
It can still be understood what is said. what problem is?

>> No.454669
File: 182 KB, 520x600, fm towns.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
454669

I like the look of old computers.

>> No.454713

>>453271
Europe was kind of a weird middle ground

it got stuff from America (C64) and stuff from Japan (MSX, incidentally designed by Microsoft).

Yurop didn't really have any major computer players besides Acorn and Sinclair

>> No.454717
File: 162 KB, 1200x1600, TeraDrive.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
454717

>> No.454765

some episode of computer chronicles explained why japan's computer market never came to the us. dont remember which one.

>> No.454821

Computer games are still stigmatized in Japan, and these are the people that have Wii Us on their Trains.

>> No.454837

I just started playing around XM6 (sharp X68000 emulator) and have run into a few issues with playing some games and I'm pretty sure it's the controls, it'll load just fine but I can't move or select items.

On my laptop I used PPJoy, parallel port joystick driver and it worked with no problems but on our windows 7 machine PPJoy refuses to work.

Anyone use this shit before or do I have no choice but to use a virtual joystick, any that are Windows 7 compatible.

>> No.454843

>>454821
Well aren't most of the japaneses computer games hentai or dating sims?

>> No.454865

>>454843
There's certainly a lot.

>> No.454871

>>454843
And those early ports of Ultima and Wizardry from the 80s

Japan has always been primarily about console games while Europe is mostly computer games and the US is a little of both.

>> No.454873

>>454713
>Yurop didn't really have any major computer players besides Acorn and Sinclair

And Amstrad

>> No.456627

>>454843
There's lots of adventure games on these too.

>> No.456687

>>453264
Disproved by the fact that Japan has a split power grid with both 50Hz and 60Hz.

>> No.456769

>>453223
Commodore and Atari computers did great in Euroland.

>> No.456994

You're all forgetting one little detail, japanese society has been free of usage of desktop computes to use the internet for like more than a decade ago. The west has been using PC for social interest until no more than 5 years ago max. Now most people just access Facebook through their cellphone. Well, that's what Japan has been doing ever since the late 90s, using their keitais to send mail, browse the internet and even buy things.
This alone lowers the percentage of destkop computer users in big quantities.

>> No.457017

>>456994
Desktop computer user = neet nerd

>> No.457028

>>457017

Pretty much.
And there's still offices in Japan that do all their work and store all their files in the old way, no computers.

>> No.457049

>>457028
I heard the japanese almost never use debit or credit cards. They pay with cash. Strange for such a tech-savvy society, they seem almost technophobic.

>> No.457056

>>454843

There's also Touhou.

>> No.457058

>>457049

Because credit cards are a scam.

>> No.457371
File: 182 KB, 1280x960, 1280px-Robotron-KC87-2[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
457371

East German master race here.

>> No.457385

>>457371
no gaems

>> No.457395

>>457385
>>>/v/

>> No.457403

>>457058
Credit cards are only scamlike if you overuse them.

Maxing it out every time just because its there is not how you use them. If you only spend within your income and pay them back on time, you'll never have to deal with excessive fees.

>> No.457406

>>457058
Debit cards aren't.

>> No.457415

>>457371
>the y and z keys

why

>> No.457426

>>457385
It's technically Sinclair clone, so it plays majority Sinclair games alright.

>> No.457472

>>457049
You underestimate old people.

I'll say that much.

>> No.457561 [DELETED] 

>>457371

Can you play Robotron on it?

[Spoiler]I'm sorry ;_;[/spoiler]

>> No.457573

>>453238
This is likely a big part of it. Unicode didn't exist until the 90s. Converting between character sets was a pain in the ass.

>> No.457575

>>457028
Most offices are still run like that in Japan.

>>456994
Japan had the problem that after a great wave of innovation they pretty much stagnated.

>> No.457576

>>457415
In Germany, they use QWERTZ. Deal with it.

>> No.457579

>>457371
Can you play Robotron on the Robotron?

>> No.457581
File: 428 KB, 640x480, pc gaming.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
457581

>>457017

>> No.457586

>>457415
Z is a very common letter in the German language, while Y is hardly ever used.

>> No.457594

>>457415

Has something to do with tz being a very common combination of letters in German so they switched the Z with the Y (which is rarely used) for convenience's sake.

>> No.457591

>>457581

>Gunbuster poster on the background

This man have taste.

>> No.457835

I generally find it weird that to this day there are devices(mobile phones, certain ultraportable notebooks) that are only sold in Japan.

You'd think that it were common sense to make those available internationally.

>> No.457871

>>457835
b-but muh "different" markets

>> No.457882

>>454717
>Sega CRT monitor

If I can get one of those without getting the computer(assuming the computer would be expensive as a collector's item) too my dick will explode.

>> No.457885

>>457415
QWERTZ is pretty common in Europe actually and I fucking hate it. Especially since a plenty of games and programs like emulators can't seem to uniformly decide whether it'll recognize it as it is or just set the keys according to the standard QWERTY. It's just stupid as fuck.

>> No.457905

>>457871

Kill yourself.

>> No.457902

>>457371
>Robotron

That has got to be the best name for a computer ever.

>> No.457909

>>457885

Why the fuck do Flash game programmers keep using X and Y instead of some thing like A and S anyway?

>> No.457927

>>457909
Rather why are QWERTZ keyboard still even being made in this day and age. In my book it's the second most frustrating archaic convention that needs to go ASAP ever, right after daylight savings.

>> No.457986

>>457927

Because of this >>457594
Germans never need to use the letter Y unless they want to write their country's name in English.

>> No.458017
File: 112 KB, 1200x442, french__90297_zoom.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
458017

>>457909
>Why the fuck do Flash game programmers keep using X and Y instead of some thing like A and S anyway?

Not even that is helping. The French layout changes the position of A, among other keys.

It's really a requirement to make your keymapping configurable.

>> No.458081

>>458017
The only flash games I've ever seen with azerty options was porn. http://onehandgames.newgrounds.com/<wbr>

>> No.458123

>>458017
>playing a FPS with non-remappable WASD

>> No.458129

>>458123

I alway play FPS with the arrow keys.

>> No.458130

>>457902
That's the manufacturers name.
>>457415
Because Europe. I like it.

>> No.458207

>>457371
Which is the spacebar?

>> No.458863

>>458207

Probably both.

>> No.459515

>>457591
Well seeing as he made it...

>> No.459924

>>459515

It's not a problem, a Gunbuster poster is a Gunbuster poster, and I like it, even if it's not official.

Anyway, I love the FM synthesis produced by PC-88 computers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mt3tci7SsK4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNjxV6EkiQs

>> No.459930

>>459924
I think you missed the point. That's a parody of a NEET lifestyle, from Otaku no Video - a GAINAX production.

>> No.459954

>>459930

Eww... I feel kinda stupid...
I don't remember this scene...

>> No.459986

>>459930
GAINAX sounds like a /fit/ tripfag

>> No.460012
File: 12 KB, 304x326, Sharp_X68000.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
460012

>>454669

i know, X68000 looked pretty ballin'

>> No.460043
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460043

>>460012

How can we get Japanese computers out of Japan? With the exception of few MSX systems, I haven't seen any in Europe.

>> No.460058

I'd love to get my hands on a X68000 and an FM Towns


to bad shipping from Japan is so expensive

>> No.460086

>>460012

I wish they still made keyboards with twisted cables.

>> No.460090

>>460043


there are a lot of FM Towns/X68000 enthusiasts in Europe.

so you either get your stuff from then OR

proxy bidders for Yahoo Auction Japan

>> No.460101

>>460086

this. I don't know why, it have a special feeling...

>>460090

>FM Towns/X68000 enthusiasts in Europe.

Wow, I knew that some people were into MSX computers, but I gad no idea about the FM Towns/X68000 owners.. Thanks for the info.

>> No.460145

>>453174
>Why do the Japanase isolate themselves?

It goes much deeper than computers.

>> No.460164

>>460145

Autism: the country

>> No.460267

>>460012
Wow, I had no idea it looked like that. Badass.

>> No.460389

After some researches, I found that some X68000 computers were given to 3 French universities, (Paris 1, Grenoble 3 and Lille 3) as I'm living between the first and the last one (and not so far from them), I think I'll check there one day to see if I can get one or 2 machines...

>> No.460439

>>460389

Actually, x68000 are not that hard to find, you can get one for 300usd, of course the games are rally expensive

>> No.460451

>>460101
For those who don't know:

MSX was a standardized design for home computers (Z80+TMS 9918/19) that several manufacturers agreed on. They were never sold in the US except for a short-lived Spectravideo model, but proved highly successful in Japan and to a somewhat lesser extent Europe.

One reason Japanese companies shied away from the North American computer market was Commodore's price wars during 1982-84.

>> No.460471

>>460451
One reason the MSX was not as popular in Europe was the already strong competition from Commodore, Amstrad, and Sinclair.

>> No.460481

>>460451

I heard the Soviets even had some MSX models too.

Also here in France, you can get one for 40 bucks.

>> No.460494
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460494

>>460451

>> No.460496
File: 103 KB, 640x466, top-ten-sega-master-system_1281161680.png.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
460496

>>460451
>Z80
>TMS 9918/19

w-wait a minute...

>> No.460512

>>460481
In Poland and rest of commie bloc we had tons of Sinclair and MSX clones mostly made in DDR. 1985 Polish census showed that more people own home computer than color TVs. it was pretty much because COMECON made decision to promote computer literacy. one of the benefit of planned economy.

>> No.460520
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460520

>>460496
Oh and...

>> No.460543

>>460496
The Master System used an advanced subset of the original TMS 9918/19 that retained backwards compatibility so you could run SG-1000 games.

>> No.460562
File: 57 KB, 650x353, sg-1000.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
460562

>>460520
As SG-1000, Colecovision, and MSX are all the same chipset under the hood, you can easily convert games between them with only a few programming modifications (primarily to adjust for their different memory maps and control inputs)

>> No.460561

>>460543
They removed the 9918 modes in the Genesis VDP, though. What a shame.

>> No.460576

>>460101
google Tokugawa forums.

I have been planning on buying a PC9821Ce2 for a while now. What's the best way of getting files onto it though? Obviously can't use USB sticks, and I don't think its floppies work in western floppy drives.

>> No.460581

Texas Instruments had originally developed the 9918/19 for the TI-99/4A (which however uses a completely different CPU) but also offered them as off-the-shelf parts.

>> No.460586

>>460581
>All those Japanese systems
>Texas Instruments, Zilog, Motorola...

>> No.460616

>>460576

Well you can still find a way to recreate your own floppies? If they're 3"1/2 it won't be difficult to find new ones. Also it seems that the PC-98 line is very close to IBM compatibles compared to the PC-88 line, without being completely one.

>> No.460619

>>460576
>>460616
Isn't this more of a /g/ question?

>> No.460628

>>460586
To be fair, Nintendo did use Japanese-sourced parts since the Famicom's chipset was made by Ricoh although when they first designed it, 6502 CPUs weren't even sold in Japan.

>> No.460631

>>460619

Well we won't create a new thread on /g/ just for this question.

>> No.460643

PC9821Ce2 is an IBM compatible and uses standard 1.44MB floppies as far as I can figure out

>> No.460650

>>460643
yeah, I think so, but I remember reading as well that PC98 2HD floppies don't fit in IBM drives. Might be wrong though, thanks

>> No.460660

>>460643
>>460650

It's not 100% compatible, and only had standard 5"1/4 and 3"1/2 floppies. They would fit in IBM drives, but they would require the original PC-98 OS to launch.

>> No.460672
File: 67 KB, 427x166, NEC_pc-9821_Ra40.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
460672

>>460643
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEC_PC-9801

They're not IBM compatible although they run proprietary versions of DOS/Windows. The drive certainly looks like an ordinary 3.5" type.

>> No.460675

>mfw Microsoft's MSX was pretty much Jap exclusive

>> No.460680

>>460660
I was thinking I could use Anex86 to create blank floppy images, then Disk Explorer to put files into the image and then maybe do a binary copy of the image to the physical floppy, might work.

>> No.460689

>>460675
See >>460481

>> No.460691

>>460680

Don't forget to format them with your PC-98 first.

>> No.460693

>>460512

So that's why a lot of crack scenes groups are eastern europe.

>> No.460702

>>460691
good point, though I have formatted floppy images using MS-DOS on a virtual hard drive in np2 before, should be the same thing.

>> No.460706

>>460693
obviously yes since all software was pirated. there was no way average person in Eastern Europe could afford to buy it.

>> No.460725
File: 63 KB, 658x460, installer.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
460725

>>460702
screw it, while I'm here, a guide I wrote myself as I figured out how to install Policenauts onto a virtual PC98. Someone might like it. http://pastebin.com/qLLqcUGM

>> No.460727

>>460451
>One reason Japanese companies shied away from the North American computer market was Commodore's price wars during 1982-84.

Good point. In fact, IIRC that was exactly what Jack Tramiel intended, having seen the Japanese take over American markets for calculators and other electronics in the 70s and being paranoid that the same thing could happen with computers.

>> No.460774

>>460451
>>460727
Now these price wars came about because Commodore owned a chip fab (MOS) and thus didn't have to pay for anything except the manufacturing cost of their ICs. They could sell computers for way cheaper than everyone else and succeeded in totally devastating the low-end market.

During 1985-86, there was a huge collapse in North American computer sales that occurred parallel to the video game crash and was partially connected to it:

>Commodore's price wars
>market oversaturation - too many competing brands and architectures
>computer sales had been steadily rising over the last four years and set a new record in 1984 - because of this, everybody who wanted a computer already had one and they couldn't sell any more for a while
>people found out that a lot of the lofty promises about the amazing things that could be done with computers proved untrue
>finally the video game crash - gaming had been a major factor in home computer sales and it suddenly was uncool and passe

>> No.460801

>>460774
After it was over, there wasn't anything left of consequence but Apple and PC clones.

>> No.460821

>>460725

Eww, I'm keeping the link, for "another day"...

Also, it have been nice to talk with you about this subject, but I have to go. I hope this thread won't die tonight.
Goodnight anons!

>> No.462446

>>457049

fwiw, japanese do use plastic but almost never go into debt with them. the payment system is quite different here (no checks) and most people pay off their credit cards in full every month by automatic withdrawal from their bank accounts.

there is also no "minimum payment" each month... instead, you can elect to pay for each item on an installment plan at the point of sale. this in turn generally creates a different atmosphere for the way debt is thought of and planned for as opposed to the american way of "charge now, deal with later" approach.

>> No.465262

>>460801
Amiga and Atari weren't even popular yet....

>> No.465286

>>465262
Atari was already passe here by the late 80s

>> No.465601

>>460725
Huh, I wasn't aware you need to install some PC98 games. That looks fairly complicated.

>> No.465606

>>465601
PC-98 used standard JP versions of DOS/Windows, of course you have to install some games.

>> No.466478

>>465606

The only standard version of any Microsoft OSes the PC-98 had was Win95, and that's what killed the platform. The DOS of the PC-98 was the only one able to run PC-98 programs.

>> No.466494

>>465601

It isnt hard at all, the hardest part is sometimes finding drivers and installing them, that can be a real pain in the ass. Specially for Policenauts which requires a special driver even on real hardware to have good audio synchro.

>> No.466936
File: 761 KB, 940x596, ninjaiq.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
466936

>>466494
yeah, it's not difficult, helps if you read japanese obviously(I don't). You're better off just getting a premade boot disk if you can.

Like you say, Policenauts unfortunately requires a specific version of a sound driver. I have more info on this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1WvIMJ2c3E (warning, ear rape).

I'm not sure where you would get all the drivers for Policenauts organically though. MSDOS disks? I got most of mine from a pre made user disk that I got with the rest of the game. The standard stuff like HIMEM was in my MS-DOS install, but things like the NECCD CD driver, no idea.

>> No.468242

>>466936
If I was a cyborg. I would want to remove the logo from my head.

>> No.469227

>>468242
he can't see it he doesn't know it's there

>> No.469292

>>458129
...how?

>> No.469404

>>469292
It's possible, I certainly used to do it when I was younger.You have to make use of all of the buttons near the arrow keys for other actions.

It's just a stupid way to go about things.

>> No.472059

>>469227
He never looked into a mirror or reflective surface?

>> No.472220
File: 54 KB, 750x560, Gamer+Girl.+Don+t+look+at+the+tags_355407_3436665.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
472220

>>469404

>> No.473098

>>457371
>product of the eastern bloc
>the (English speaking) west is the capitalist devil
>some keys labeled in English
why?

>> No.473206

>>469292
>>469404
>>472220

I use them because they were the default key in Wolfenstein and Doom. Then I became used to them. It's not stupid at all, it's just a different way to play.

And I wont listen to some stupid ass telling me to use WASD while I beat the crap out of them in Doom and Quake 3 Arena.

Polite sage because it's not the subject of the thread.

>> No.474490
File: 266 KB, 1600x1045, Pn-pravez-class-4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
474490

An interesting fact about computers in the Eastern bloc. The Soviet trading association COMECON, which determined the 'socialist international division of labour', focused on Bulgaria as the emerging centre of the electronics industry in the late 70s. Despite being a heavily rural country Bulgaria became the heart of the magnetic-disk and computer industries. It even produced the first "socialist" home computer called the Pravets-82, though most people regard it as nothing more than an Apple II clone.

>> No.474534

>>472220
I've played with pro FPS players (top 10 in country) who use this weird ass setup. It's harder but not impossible to play like that.

>> No.474560

>>474534

Like I said here >>473206 , it's not because you don't use WASD that you don't know how to play. I have no idea who said this was the best way to play, 'cause that's very objective...

Polite sage 'cause off-topic

>> No.474687

>>462446
>charge now, deal with later
Does the average American seriously think like that?
I'm not Japanese, and I always off what relatively little credit (Master Card) I use.
Generally I use debit cards, in which draw money directly from the main account.

>> No.474734

>>474687

Same here. I didn't knew that credit cards worked otherwise on some countries...

>> No.474746

>>474490
cool story bro, where can i find more info about soviet computing.

>> No.474805

>>474746
Couldn't really direct you to a more informative source. The information I posted was from a brief paragraph in a book about the growth of Capitalism in post-Soviet republics. It would be more ideal if there were an anon here who could provide us with anecdotal information.

>> No.474846

>>472059
Too busy killing people.

>> No.474892

>>474746
Most sites that deal with the topic are in some form of slavspeak, so you really have to use Google Translate and hope to get something that will make sense (not guaranteed, automatic Russian/other slavspeak to English translation is notoriously horrendous).

There's at least one German site that deals with Robotron computers (http://robotron-net.de/ I believe), although Robotrons were typical "office" computers that ran CP/M and didn't have much going for them outside of word processors and spreadsheets. Not surprising considering that the company was the main produced of typewriters in Eastern Europe. You will probably have more luck on /g/ with such questions, they have a good share of Amigafags and slavs that used those things in school.

>> No.474924

>>474687

i'm not sure about the 'average' american, but i definitely know from personal experience a lot of americans who use their credit cards in this fashion... and they basically get themselves into fairly big financial holes and paying crazy interest to the greedy as fuck banks as a result.

speaking in broad generalizations, i do think americans on average do view debt very differently than other cultures. while i believe that being too debt-adverse is also an issue in some countries, the problem americans have is that most people don't have a firm understanding of good vs bad debt (even if they think they do).

>> No.478684

>>474534
>>472220
It's only "harder" if you're used to the other setup.
It also depends on the shape of your keyboard.

>> No.478842

>>478684
The keys are more spread out. So yes I would say it's harder. But play however you want man.

>> No.478864

>>478684
You have to move your hands much more for very basic actions that require one finger to shift slightly normally.

It's a fucking awful setup.

>> No.479510

To answer your question in a sentence, OP:

While Japan was competing with the US, it also had a lot of competition from within, so most of the models were oriented around beating what was popular in Japan, not necessarily what was best for the west.

In Japan the competition was between:

NEC
Sony
Sharp
Fujitsu
Matsushita (Now Panasonic)
and Sanyo

This was in the 80s/early 90s

NEC's PC98 only really ended up becoming a big seller because of the erogames that were on it, basically (It was ideal for these), which obviously mean that it wasn't going to get to the west.

I think it was only Fujitsu's FM TOWNS series which did anything particularly shocking which was to have an internal CD-ROM drive as standard which everyone else followed.

>> No.479593

>>474846
Ah. That will cut into your freetime.