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/vr/ - Retro Games

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4524486 No.4524486 [Reply] [Original]

What were they thinking with this game?!

The level design is a convoluted mess
Game is WAY TOO HARD (the PSX version)
The graphic is worst than TR2

It's a miracle the series hasn't ended with this crap

>> No.4524492

>>4524486
The levels are huge and challenging, but it's not THAT bad, definitely far worse than 1 and 2 but still ok. I like that they at least returned to TR1's philosophy of using enemies more sparingly so as to focus more on exploration and the element of surprise.

>> No.4524494

>>4524492
>I like that they at least returned to TR1's philosophy
>TR3
Are you kidding?

That was Last revelation

>> No.4524501

>>4524486
I beat the game without knowing you could sprint. Some parts were extremely hard without sprinting.

>> No.4524520

>>4524486
I really like it. The ''convoluted'' design works well for the temple and outdoor levels. I also like the nightmarish urban labyrinth that London is turned into.

>> No.4524539

Tomb Raider 3 feels like a game that was never playtested by anyone outside of the dev team.

>> No.4524576

>>4524494
>t. can't read more than half of a sentence

>> No.4524598

>>4524486
Funny, I don't remember it being hard. I also don't remember it being all that great either. Or close to how good 1 was, but it was at least a step up from 2.

>> No.4524601

>>4524598
>Funny, I don't remember it being hard
You probably played the PC version and savescumming like hell

>> No.4524610

>>4524486
>The level design is a convoluted mess
They are fucking perfect, with truly massive areas to search around and figure out on your own. As long as we are not discussing London (where it's the theme that fails, not level design as such), it's fine. India, South Pacific, first two levels of Nevada and Antarctica are rock-solid.
>Game is WAY TOO HARD (the PSX version)
You mean the small amount of checkpoints? Yeah, that kind of sucks, especially in London and levels 2 & 3 of Nevada. But you can always play the PC version and enjoy the game in full glory
>The graphic is worst than TR2
Are you fucking blind or something?
>It's a miracle the series hasn't ended with this crap
Oh, so you just came from /v/, how fitting.

>>4524520
London is just meh in general. Don't get me wrong, it has its moments, but in general it just feels weird. Aldwych is simply tedious, rather than entertaining or challenging.

>>4524539
... which applies to all TRs beteen 1 and Chronicles, so?

>>4524598
I think he means the fact there were barely any checkpoints, making certain levels just plain nasty on PSX

>> No.4524615

it took me months to beat temple ruins as a kid
also I didn't know what to do in antartica and quit, definitely the hardest TR for me

>> No.4524618

>>4524610
>They are fucking perfect
KEK
So the level design in TR1, 2 and LR are.. what.. DOUBLE perfect?
>Oh, so you just came from /v/, how fitting.
??
This is really stupid and you know it

>> No.4524621

>>4524610
>I think he means the fact there were barely any checkpoints, making certain levels just plain nasty on PSX

Weird I guess I never noticed that either. But being the third game in a fairly short time I was pretty used to how they worked. It was so long ago now though.

>> No.4524626

>>4524618
>DOUBLE perfect
... no?
TR3 simply has even, good level design throughout the entire game. Even if a "bad" level happens, the layout and design itself is still solid, meaning the levels are, well, perfect. I might hate London for being "urban raider", but levels themselves are still well-made.
Then comes your retarded "if X then Y" notion. Ever heard about possibility of having more than just dichotomous choice? Especially if the dichotomy in question is a fake one.
Meaning that TR1, 2 and LR can be also good (even if I wouldn't call TR2's levels perfect, considering how fucking bad is the layout and design for oil rig and then the shipwreck) without making TR3 bad and vice versa.

>> No.4524628

>>4524486
This is scary
This morning when I was commuting to work I was thinking
"Maan, tomb raider 3 was too damn hard"

>> No.4524631

>>4524621
I don't think any other TR had this issue. But seriously, the whole "HURRR TR3 is too hard!" comes entirely from people playing it on PSX and PSX only.
On the other end of the scale is Japanese release, where numerous secrets are made obvious thanks to removal of foliage, outright adding platforms or removing walls for easier access, all while enemies have half their normal health, so even with lack of checkpoint there is barely any challenge left, even when playing blind for the first time.

>> No.4524635

>>4524631
Huh I don't know what to say, but it was the PS1 version I played. But after the first one I found the orher games fairly disappointing until Underworld. Most of my memory of 3 was rushing through hoping it would get better so maybe that's why it didn't feel that way.

>> No.4524639

>>4524610
First level of nevada is p bad imo. The climb along the cliffs to the waterfalls is tedious, the base at the end is goofy and too action focused. The rest of the nevada levels have some good ideas which are completely out of place in TR.

India and South pacific are among the best levels in the series.

London is strange in a good way. It's creepy, oppressive and confusing, almost feeling like a horror game at times. It's the best attempt at moving the game into a modern surrounding after the venice levels in TR3.

>> No.4524645

>>4524626
>.. no?
Oh i get it, you're a "contrarian"
You know why Last revelation was a return to the spirit of TR1? Because TR3 was HORRIBLE and everyone back then hates that game

>> No.4524650

>>4524635
I highly advise playing through India, South Pacific and Antarctica. Nevada and London are rather skippable and India has rather disappointing 3rd level, as it's designed fully for quad ride, but rest of the game scratches nicely all the possible TR itches one can have.
Hell, just get yourself South Pacific save stat and play it, one of the best things that Core ever made

>>4524639
>the base at the end is goofy and too action focused.
You mean the outpost you ride by the end of the level, or Nevada as a whole?

>>4524645
>Talks about contrarians
>While being contrarian
(You)
Apply yourself and get back to /v/

>> No.4524657

>>4524645
>Because TR3 was HORRIBLE and everyone back then hates that game
Seriously though the game got great reviews at the time and if anything last revelation had even bigger and more confusing levels with the hub areas and all.
The ''return to the spirit of tr1'' was just a marketing ploy. None of the games from the original series strayed far from the first game.

>> No.4524661

>>4524645
>everyone back then hates that game
Everyone back then hated LR for being uninspired and boring repetition of all cliches and set pieces the series had in past three games, just so you know. Because apparently you weren't even around in '99 and now have a special brand of nostalgia toward the game that was shot dead on arrival back in the day.
Meanwhile, TR3 was the last Core game to receive good reviews and good reception from playerbase, even if complains started to crop up already due to aging engine and lacking innovation.
>You know why Last revelation was a return to the spirit of TR1
Only that it wasn't. It was a game milking a chance for "Millenial plot" and Egypt was imposed by Eidos marketing department.

>> No.4524662

>>4524486
>What were they thinking
>Game is WAY TOO HARD
ASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

>> No.4524673

>>4524661
>a special brand of nostalgia toward the game that was shot dead on arrival back in the day

TLR was praised by a small handful of publications who saw it as the last great TR game, and it's a strong fan favorite in spite of the mainstream reception it got. It's was a very uncompromising game, but rewarding for those who appreciated what it was doing.

>> No.4524675

>>4524673
>and it's a strong fan favorite in spite of the mainstream reception it got
... today.
Back when it came out, it was universally booed for almost no improvement over previous three, extremely dated at that point engine and taking itself dead-serious with its cheesy plot (the first TR to get this complain). Then there was also the issue with ending, naturally, but the fact Core announced another game only intensified the already poor reception.
>It's was a very uncompromising game, but rewarding for those who appreciated what it was doing.
You are on /vr/. Why you are trying to sound like a pretentious hipster e-celeb then? You are literally making your opinion sound even weaker than it actually is. I get it, you like the game, but why are you trying to convince me toward it in the first place, not to mention the style you are using for that or the open ignorance toward how things played out in '99.

>> No.4524703

>>4524675
>... today.

There was always an undercurrent of fans who considered it the strongest in the series next to the original, and the core online fanbase tends to hold it up as a highlight of the series, and have done so for years.

It has its problems, is very glitchy, and can be a slog at times, but it has the tightest level design next to the original.

>> No.4524713

>>4524650
>I highly advise playing through India, South Pacific and Antarctica.

Are you really advising me to replay a game I already said I didn't like a ton? I rarely replay games, but if I was going to play an old TR again the first is the only one I'd consider.

>> No.4524726

Are TR fans the most autistic?

>> No.4524729

>>4524726
In what way?

>> No.4524736
File: 264 KB, 1600x1200, lara_and_rotweiler_by_ashka_marauder.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4524736

>>4524729
In a way that they can't admit that these games are full of flaws. Basically like nuLara fans who disregard old games but with the opposite polarity.
>Even if a "bad" level happens, the layout and design itself is still solid, meaning the levels are, well, perfect
>bad level
>perfect
Just look at this level of mental gymnastics.

>> No.4524739

>>4524736
Fascinating.

>> No.4524745

>>4524492
This plus the franchise had way too much momentum to fail. 3 and 4 could have both been Angel of Darkness mechanics and there still would've been a film.

>> No.4524835
File: 6 KB, 235x206, miss the point.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4524835

>>4524703
Here, a graphic cue, so you can finally grasp what the hell you are doing.

>>4524713
Yup. I used to absolutely hate TR2 when I've played it for the first time in '00. Then I've learned to just ignore first half of the game and start from Tibet onward. BAM! Masterpiece.

>>4524736
Assuming that by "bad" he means "urban raider", I can roll with it without any gymnastics.

>> No.4525327

TR1 is a masterpiece.
TR2 could have been great if it had less shooting.
TR3 is a very uneven experience. Some great levels, some terrible ones. And the save system was awful on PS1.
TR4 is the second best TR. Incredible underrated.

>> No.4525328

>>4524486
This game gave me my quicksand fetish

>> No.4525398

Nevada and South Pacific Isles were God Tier. Everything else was meh to shit. Definitely the most inconsistent TR

>> No.4525757

>>4525327
I couldn't agree more with this.

>> No.4525834
File: 81 KB, 586x591, shoolraider.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4525834

Umm, have you played the refined version?

>> No.4526175

>>4525327
>>4525757
And I still say TR1 gets too much of a free pass, solely because it's the first one. For me it's 4 that is the ultimate TR game, overcoming first game due to sheer size, complexity and full realisation of own potential, rather than being still a "trial" game (remember all those remarks from Gard toward level design in TR1?). Sure, it does benefit of the experience of previous three games, BUT it was done by completely different people, sharing only a handful of guys that were doing tertiary and secondary stuff for previous games at best, so it's more of "ok, look on what they've did in previous games" rather than "people, this is our 4th TR in this team, let's make the most of it".
Which, if you think about it, is amazing on its own right.

But other than the 4 vs 1, I couldn't agree more with you. The franchise should have really ended and/or skip directly to AoD after Last Revelation.

>> No.4526198

>>4525398
Navada itself was inconsistent as fuck. First level is really nice, even if consists predominately of back-tracking. Prison is one of the most divisive levels of entire game due to robbing you blind of all your medpacks and ammo, but by itself it's pretty fun. Area 51 is... it's just too long for own good, with so much random shit going in it it's just not fun. Also, how the fuck Lara get out of there?
Antarctica is also very inconsistent. First level, due to few oversights, can be rushed to very brief jog and close-to-death hypothermia experience, the mines are on one hand nice to explore, on the other very easy to get stuck for no real reason other than design oversight, but then comes Lost City of Tinnos and holy shit, that was one of the better levels ever made. Meteorite Cave is just, dunno... meh? It's neither good nor bad, but has similar issue to ending of TR2 - you have this boring "afterboss" part of the level that drags for more than the fight itself, despite the level being obviously evisioned as boss arena.
So yeah, TR3 level quality is all over the place.

>> No.4526214

>>4525398
>India and South Pacific Isles were God Tier
Here, ftfy
As far as I'm concerned, London section of the game could cease to exist

>> No.4526497

>>4524628
Happens to me all the time.
The two games I'm playing right now are TR3 and Spyro the Dragon. I get on /vr/ and there's a TR3 thread and a Spyro thread. Go figure.

>> No.4526508

>>4526175
It doesn't need a free pass, on every level it does everything wonderfully. Perfect level size, perfect amount of enemies per level, great puzzles, interesting worlds, it doesn't need a "pass" from anybody.

>> No.4526528

I like the savegame crystals in the ps version. Being able to save at any time ruins the tension in this kind of game.

>> No.4526539

>>4526528
That's Stockholm syndrome.

>> No.4526782

>>4526528
Yeah, I love that too, having to repeat whole sections of a game over and over again because of bullshit deaths and you can't save. Beautiful.

>> No.4526790

>>4526528
I like them better in the first game, they seem to have been better placed there

>> No.4526801

>>4526782
There's just no sense of peril when you know you can save at any time, and it makes the game less of an adventure than it could be. What's the point of death traps if you don't have to be on your toes? Plus you have a good reason to track down all the secrets and explore more.

>> No.4526808

>>4524736
I love angel of darkness :3 My fav TR

>> No.4527747

>>4526508
Tell that to Cistern. Or Obelisk of Khamoon.
And let's not pretend the set of moves wasn't very, very limited, in turn greatly simplifying the level design, since not even some of the most obvious moves were in.

>> No.4529053

>>4527747
Yeah I really miss the sprinting and mid jump flips in TR1.

>> No.4529062

>>4524486
How was this a good series anyway?

1.Characters and story nonexistent.
2.Almost no music.
3.No gratification of exploration, since handguns killl anything anyway.
4.Shit console version.
5.Shit controls and gameplay artificially revolving around it.
6.Bad interface.

This series played like a DOS game, but with no actual substance.

>> No.4529073

>>4529062
7. Tedious "puzzles"(more like chores and filler)

>> No.4529081

>>4529062
The music is great tho and used exactly the right way.

>> No.4529083

>>4529073
>>4529062
The puzzles aren't filler, they're the meat of the game. If you don't like that, it's never been a series that was made to appeal to you.

>> No.4529115

>>4524486
This game was awful. Chaotic and unfair level design, bizarre save system, too dark, bizarre puzzle logic. Easily the worst of the original four games.

>> No.4529116

>>4529062
I know this is bait but still
>Characters and story nonexistent.
didn't need them
>Almost no music.
It was used sparingly to create a sense of atmosphere
>No gratification of exploration, since handguns killl anything anyway.
you can get supplies, ammo, weapons and even access to new levels if you collect all secrets, not to mention that exploration is needed to progress through the levels
>Shit console version.
How? Certain games like TR2 crash on the PC if you destroy petrified enemies before they wake up, now that's shitty
>Shit controls and gameplay artificially revolving around it.
git gud and stop having the spatial coordination of a woman
>Bad interface.
Nope
>>4529073
>Tedious "puzzles"(more like chores and filler)
yeah, the game definitely isn't for brainlets, stick to collectathons like spyro or banjo

>> No.4529118

>>4529115
>Chaotic and unfair level design
>bizarre puzzle logic

Ohh god lol please elaborate

>> No.4529138

>>4529116
>yeah, the game definitely isn't for brainlets, stick to collectathons like spyro or banjo
By this I meant that they are not really engaging puzzles, just things to do like arrange blocks properly. That's why "puzzles" and not puzzles. It didn't require any thinking.

>> No.4529140

>>4529138
This is what happens when people watch YouTube vids and then try to act like they played the game.

>> No.4529145

>>4529116
>didn't need them
ok, but I was pointing this out as sometimes it is somewhat a saving grace, like in Deus ex
>It was used sparingly to create a sense of atmosphere
ok, agreed
>you can get supplies, ammo, weapons and even access to new levels if you collect all secrets, not to mention that exploration is needed to progress through the levels
you don't need that ammo, supplies. Which I just pointed out...
>How? Certain games like TR2 crash on the PC if you destroy petrified enemies before they wake up, now that's shitty
And how is that proving your point game being not shit? FYI PS1 had long loading times, that made the game unplayable. Also worse graphics if I remember corectly.
>git gud and stop having the spatial coordination of a woman
you start to shitpost a little bit here...
>Nope
and there..
>yeah, the game definitely isn't for brainlets, stick to collectathons like spyro or banjo
yeah, definitely a shitpost, started strong but the urge to shitpost was too strong with this one

>> No.4529147

>>4529140
literal chads could solve those puzzles. I think you have some problems and now seek confirmation bias

>> No.4529150

>>4529147
Nice reading comprehension.

>> No.4529151

>>4529145
shit posts get shit replies, shitposter

>> No.4529157

>>4529145
>definitely a shitpost,

I'm pretty sure he was just making fun of that list of complaints. It was pretty shitposty but the original post was asking for it.

>> No.4529172

>>4529151
I expressed my opinion, afterwards you immediately turned to ad hominem atacks, projections and being overally buthurt.

>> No.4529181

>>4529172
boo hoo, if you don't like getting called out stop having shit opinions

>> No.4529182

>>4529172
Well you expressed it so poorly that you looked at best like a tryhard troll, and more likely someone who barely even played it and just likes to bitch. Even an idiot shouldn't be surprised at the reaction you got.

>> No.4529191

>>4529157
>but the original post was asking for it.
How? This was just an opinion, nobody was atacked. We can discuss elements of games in subjective opinions or we can take everything personally and throw shit at each other.

>> No.4529205

>>4529191
Maybe if you learn to express yourself and your ideas intelligently instead of just saying shit over and over you wouldn't leave yourself as open to ridicule.

>> No.4529215

>>4529205
Thanks for suggestion. But nobody ridiculed those statements, aside from some kid that would likely turn to "your mom" insults.

>> No.4529220

>>4529215
You poor thing.

>> No.4529252

>>4529062
Will elaborate on what I meant, based on tomb raider 3:
Combat is running around and shooting handguns until enemy drops dead, unless it has ranged weapon, which hapens rearely if I remember correctly. Healing is plentifull. Therefore there is actually no prompt to explore secrets and take risks. Aside from secret level but only if you collected all of them.

PSone version can load a save up to 3 minutes. This is really bad for a game when you happen to die. Aside from that glitches and bugs as somebody already mentioned.

Controls could be done better. When you push back lara does this weird move back. Grabing ledges is a pain. Lara controls like tank, which was ok for resident evil, but is bad for actual 3D game. There is a large overhead in what controls you need to input to achieve desired effect. You get the idea if you played and thinked about it for a minute. Shortcuts could be made for selecting flares or healing or whatever instead of having to go to inventory.

Puzzles are really, really easy, and in no way taking time to push all those blocks sparkle interest into already dullish game.

Those blatant flaws make it worse as an exploration action/adventure game, because those points actually matter in this genre. The game adds nothing in terms of story/characters/ aside from replacing regular brown short haired guy with pair of tits.

>> No.4529370

>>4529252
> because those points actually matter in this genre
There are no other games in this genre. As in fully exploration minimum combat non rpg 3D game. I think that explains everything, case closed.

>> No.4529382

>>4529370
>There are no other games in this genre.
PoP3D and Shadow Man are basically the same formula (soul reaver less so), however both are less polished than any classic TR.

>> No.4529392

>>4529382
I think soul reaver was made by the same company, Crystal dynamics. So they hardly got any competion in the niche. Perhaps if somebode else competed at that time, many things would have improved. Probably developers thought it's a risky move or unprofitable. Tits were already taken, and making a dude would just make it too generic and indiana jonesy.

>> No.4529395

>>4529382
>PoP3D and Shadow Man are basically the same formula (soul reaver less so),
Nah, POP3D had more combat. Also came generation later. Shadow man looks like Akuji the heartless lol, bad shovelware.

>> No.4529396

>>4529392
not that guy but Core made TR (well the first 6 anyway), CD made the three after I think

>> No.4529404

>>4529395
Nah man PoP3D had like five or six enemies per level and you could skip a lot of the fights.

>> No.4529414

>>4529404
Oh yeah now I see, sorry, I thought you meant sands in time prince of percia. Didnt know Prince of persia 3D even existed.

>> No.4529478

>>4524486
>The graphic is worst than TR2
wat

>> No.4529487

It was the only TR I owned as a kid after missing out on 1 & renting 2. I remember the advances in graphics like better shadows and new vehicles were cool but also that I needed cheats to finish it.

Biggest problem I had was them changing the save game function making this retarded mix of 1&2 where you had limited use save crystals but you could use them wherever you wanted. TR2s "save wherever" was perfect, if you were having trouble you could save as much as you wanted & if you wanted more of a challenge then you just wouldn't save as often. Don't know why they changed it

>> No.4529495

>>4529116
>git gud and stop having the spatial coordination of a woman
I've seen female let's players who rekt these games. This guy have the coordination of an autistic child.

>> No.4530410
File: 99 KB, 620x349, gb-amputee-footballers---article.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4530410

>>4529116
>>4529495
Yeah, there can't be a better way to control Lara for sure. Do you play football with crutches too? Or you are literally worse than disabled people?

>> No.4530437

>>4530410
get good casual scrub

>> No.4530450

>>4530410
if football was designed with crutches in mind the same way tomb raider was designed with tank controls in mind you'd have a point

>> No.4530531

>>4529145
>PS1 had long loading times, that made the game unplayable
Bull-shit

>> No.4531035

>>4524486
When I played TR3 PSX version I though it was impossible to beat without a guide, now I that I'm playing in PC I'm having a much better run. Save system in the PSX version is absolute crap and also the lightning man...I have a guide from 1998 for PSX version and all the scans of London levels are completely pitch black, you couldn't see shit if you're playing on the Playstation.

>> No.4531039

>>4531035
if you were playing*

>> No.4532153

Fired up the game again for the first time in years because of this thread and wow the first level is brutal and the second one is just insane. Really lets you know right away that it's no cakewalk. It might be the most "serious" 3D platformer in terms of challenge and mechanics.

>> No.4534681

>>4524486
Wrong
Gameplay wise tr3 is the best of the series
As a whole only slightly behind tr1

>>4524494
Wrong, tr4 is the worst, most boring in the series
It's good until you get to Alexandria, then it's a boring drag

>> No.4534682

>>4524645
>everyone back then hates this game
Bull fucking shit, I was around back then, the TR brand hadn't run its course yet , it wasn't until the next one until people started getting bored with it. Everybody in school treated this as just another TR game in an era where TR games were a very hot thing.

>> No.4534686

>>4524494
Funny, I always thought that Revelation had way too linear and easy levels.

>> No.4534946

>>4534681
What even was after Alexandria? I remember climbing a pyramid, going inside a sphinx with some bullshit puzzle, climbing across a hole in the middle of a city street. Then there was the blue beam coming out of a pyramid and a lackluster ending.

>> No.4536032

I was never a huge fan of these games, but I did like them. I played 1 until the 2nd atlantis level, where I really hated the boring levels with too many enemies with too much health. I beat 2; liked it the best though I didn't like some of the modern aspects and too many human enemies. I barely played 3. I found it to be much harder and some of the levels are way too huge while being very boring and weird. Even watching those people on youtube who do everything perfectly (like tartancroft), it's boring to watch them play 3, except for a handful of levels.

>> No.4536868

>>4529370
>As in fully exploration minimum combat non rpg 3D game

How are most of the 3D Zelda's not exactly this? You'd be right that it's fairly rare in general, but it's not as unique as you make it out to be.

>> No.4536871

>>4529487
The proper solution should be to have save crystals in specific locations that you can use however many times you want. Save anywhere is retarded, both because it kills tension and because it lets you save it places where you're guaranteed to die.

>> No.4536896

>>4536032
Yeah, third is weaker even than its addon.