/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.4495936]

>rpg
>any character can learn any skill

[Anonymous No.4495957]

>>4495936
> role playing game... play any role or a combination of whatever. Its the players choice to limit the role you want to play.

But i see your point. A good rpg would have self imposed limits as to not over power the character.

Todd "it just works" howard said it best. People want to have a power fantasy experience. Overpowered gods that can reak havoc or someshit. Mainstream gaming was a mistake.

[Anonymous No.4495965]

I don't think video games are a good medium for real role playing in the first place.

You're telling a computer to "use some imagination" as a DM.

[Anonymous No.4495975]

>>4495936
This is indeed bullshit and one of the main reasons the latter Final Fantasies (and some of the earlier ones though to a lesser degree) aren't good games.

[Anonymous No.4495981]

>>4495936
>>4495975
>FFV circlejerking for WEEKS
>suddenly this thread

oh /vr/

[Anonymous No.4495982]

>>4495981
I'm not a FFV fanboy, in fact FFV itself is on of the earlier entries to suffer from this by the end due to the Freelancer class shenanigans (also Mimic).

[babbage's gramps !RATGzMALLY No.4495996]

>>4495965
From this perspective, generic characters are better. I remember a few years ago playing a modern western RPG where one of my characters had too high a stealth for another character to see them and it would cause cinemas to hang because the game actually ran the spotting check when a speaking character needed to change who it was looking at. That was a pain in the ass but funny because before long we'll have AI learning from human behavior in online games in order to improvise in single player games. Won't that be great and/or worrisome?

[Anonymous No.4496007]

>>4495975
>>4495982
Yet what bores me is locked roles ala FFIV or IX. Where is the fun if everything is set up for you already?

[Anonymous No.4496018]

>>4495996
Ohh god why

[Anonymous No.4496021]

The only character I can think of that can learn any moves is Mew.

[Anonymous No.4496023]

>>4496007
Indeed, there needs to be a balance. FFIX had a bit of a better idea but it still came up short.

In order for there to be balance and strategy in a party-based game characters must have distinct roles with strengths and weaknesses unique to their class, but also let you customize said characters with some limitations. Some games let you do this like the post-/vr/ Etrian Odyssey series, it's just that Final Fantasy for instance never seemed to get this right, going from one extreme to another.

[Anonymous No.4496026]

>>4496021
>it’s a “babby hasn’t played an rpg other than pokemon” episode

[Anonymous No.4496027]

>>4496021
He actually can't learn any move, just any TM/HM. Smeargle is closer to what you say, but he pays with shitty stats so he can only use supportive movesets (can't attack nor tank).

[Anonymous No.4496029]

>>4496021
You sound like a mental challenged person.

[Anonymous No.4496030]

>>4496007
The fun comes from the game throwing challenges at you in the form of having to make it through an area with a given party assembly. Specializing in a character’s given skillset, etc.

[Anonymous No.4496032]

>>4496030
>challenges
Pfft we've played different games, it seems.

[Anonymous No.4496034]

>>4496030
Yes, this is why, if you have to choose, a fixed class system is better than a free for all "everyone is the same" deal. Still, the best way to make these is like I mentioned here >>4496023

[Anonymous No.4496036]

>>4496032
It's still a challenge even if not a great one. Also, if you never grind these are increased (it's the true way to play these games unless it's mandatory, you waste less time and you actually get some challenge: you need long-term thinking, managing resources...)

[babbage's gramps !RATGzMALLY No.4496039]

>>4496018
How do YOU think characters should progress in rpgs?

[Anonymous No.4496040]

>>4496029
I love to customize characters, it's fun as sin, but when you go and master every single attack or spell it feels like whatever game your are playing gets somewhat boring, take DQVII or FFV for example, i have been playing FFVI and the game has some gimmick moments here and there that makes the overpower characters have some troubles.

[Anonymous No.4496045]

>>4495981
>vee are is one person

[Anonymous No.4496048]

>>4496026
I played wizardry, dragon quest, shin megami tensei, homm, and other series and they all have classes, not characters that can learn any type of move.
>>4496027
Well, I mean Mew acts as a broken "all type/class" pokemon. I only played G/S once and that was a long time ago, I don't remember much about Smeargle.
>>4496029
why?

[Anonymous No.4496080]

>>4496048
Smeargle only learns one move, Sketch, which copies whatever the enemy did the previous turn permanently. This way he can learn (almost) any move. But again, due to his bad stats you can't expect this guy to do damage nor tank hits, so the best you can do is teach him status moves such as Spore and Buff+Baton Pass so you can buff your partners.

[Anonymous No.4496102]

>>4495957
>Mainstream gaming was a mistake
This is the single stupidest comment I have read all week. Congratulations.

[Anonymous No.4496105]

>>4495936
Frogposter, I damn thee to the pit.

[Anonymous No.4496110]

>>4496102
Its true. Look at whats happening now that nerd culture is a mainstream commodity. Shits weak af, son. Dont be a sheeple, fucking look at whats happening to anything that is becoming mainstream. It fucking sucks. From the music, art, fashion, videogames, tv, movies. What the fuck kinda of retard do you have to be to not see the creative decline of things lately.

[Anonymous No.4496118]

>>4496110
Maybe he's one of the ones that enjoy the mainstream versions of all of those.

[Anonymous No.4496152]

>>4495936
yo what do you have against dungeon master you faggot

[Anonymous No.4496170]

>>4495936
There's nothing wrong with an open-ended skill system, but there is something wrong when there's no point in picking skills synergistically or when one subset blows everything else right the fuck out.

[Anonymous No.4496309]

>>4496110
But annon we have the exact opposite of a creative decline. There's a much greater variety of genres and sub-genres than at any other point in history.

But alas let's make fun your wild sweeping statements

>From the music, art, fashion, videogames, tv, movies.

Tell me when the hell fashion wasn't "mainstream" and was thus more "creative. Than do the same for music, tv, movies, and art.

I'm dying to know when these things were niche.

[Anonymous No.4496542]

>>4496309
i think hes talking about how in the last 20 years or so alot of things have become really horrible.

art and fashion started to decline in the 60's. followed by music in the late 90s early 2000s. i think tv has always been shit. movies have also had a weird decline, even though there are still great movies that are mainstream.

i would have to say mainstream music and gaming have degraded pretty nicely in the past 20 years. there are always exception, but that seems to be the trend. fashion and art these days are quite atrocious. i honestly think /ic/ has better artists than some of these "modern artists". fashion is fucking strange and not in a good way. its like back to the future mixed with trailer park clothes. music is a half and half thing for me. i dont usually like new music i hear on the radio, but searching for music seems to bring me some nice newer bands and musicians.

this is just my opinion and im not really trying to defend the argument, it just seems pretty true from a mainstream perspective.

[Anonymous No.4496569]

>>4496542
Saying that these things were once niche and than went mainstream is not the same thing as saying that they have become shitty. He's a fucking idiot and there's no point in trying to make sense of a guy who thinks that movies were once not 'mainstream'.

Saying that all these different things become "really horrible" at a certain decade is incredibly vague and communicates nothing other than you stopped liking it. It's just whining.

[Anonymous No.4496575]

>>4496569
Judging by the Frank crap he posted he's probably just trolling, buddy.

[Anonymous No.4496579]

>>4496569
like i said its my opinion. if you dont think mainstream music is bad. thats your fuckin choice guy. I think alot of people would agree with me on my opinions of how horrible things are becoming.

[Anonymous No.4496594]

>>4496579
>I think alot of people would agree with me on my opinions of how horrible things are becoming.


"Everything with was great during (insert decade I was a child)....now everything is bad. We had (insert thing I grew up with) but now all we have is (insert well known thing here)"

You know what? Music became shit in about 1910....fucking mainstream music.

[Anonymous No.4496621]

>>4496594
wtf are you talking about, i think (my opinion, which ive stated many times over, you retard.) fashion started seriously degrading in the 60's, i wasnt alive, its just my fucking opinion. are you saying people can't have opinions on things in retrospect?

that guy was inferring that mainstream culture has gone to shit, not that certain things were once niche (which they were at certain points in time, like when the tech was first developing.) and now are mainstream. its fucking implied you dunce fucker.

if you really think music became shit in 1910, thats your choice. most mainstream music these days have less intelligent lyrics than nursery rhymes. fashion has become a garble of mixed ideas that seems to not know what it wants to be or where its going. art gets mistaken for trash by janitors. all AAA videogames are becoming the same game with the same control scheme and the same mechanics. if you really think there hasn't been a decline mainstream creativity, you must be living under a rock.

[Anonymous No.4496628]

The answer to all you guys are talking is very easy. Humanity through its technological advancements (which have accelerated the last few decades) has increasingly become more able to tell what to offer to its demand.
Before, markets weren't as figured out, things were more trial and error. Now you've got stuff like big data, newer psychological discoveries, focus testings and a big etc.
This is why lately everything feels more sterile: mainstream stuff is carefully made following a formula that is the most assured to reap the biggest benefit. It's certainly a thing for gaming and one of the key distinctions as of why retro gaming feels different.

[Anonymous No.4496634]

>>4496621
>all AAA videogames are becoming the same game with the same control scheme and the same mechanics. if you really think there hasn't been a decline mainstream creativity, you must be living under a rock.

Explain how Witcher 3, Nier Automota, Crysis and Age of Empires 4 have all the same controls. You're saying utterly retarded shit.

As for creativity. There are more games out now than before by a factor of mulitutdes and with more genres types than before. There's also more potential for variety in visuals just because the tech is so much better. You couldn't have advanced particles, cell shading, dynamic lighting, or a million and one texture tricks in the past. Whether you like any of that is a matter of opinio but by sheer quantity there's simply a lot more things being created than before.

It's easy to look at the past and think it had a lot of great games that were innovative in one or another but they were spread out over decades and ultimatly they could only do what the tech allowed them to do.

[Anonymous No.4496637]

>>4496628
yes this is very true. there are less risks being taken in well developed areas such as videogames, music, movies. so, corporations looking for profits are going to go with the well known and tested method for whatever they sell, over something that could put off customers or potentially offend a large portion of their market share.

[Anonymous No.4496640]

>>4496634
>Explain how Witcher 3, Nier Automota, Crysis and Age of Empires 4 have all the same controls. You're saying utterly retarded shit.

It's probably the same guy who described Stardew Valley and Fallout 4 as Minecraft clones lol.

[Anonymous No.4496642]

>>4496628
It's the reverse dude. Because the means of destribution have become so cheap there's more vareity now. There are niches now that couldn't exist in the past because it wouldn't be worth making the cartirdges/cds and shipping them.

Saying that marketing, play-testing and psychology etc are "new" things is fucking laughable. I remember watching a GCD for Gauntlet, the original Gauntlet, they had focus groups, play tests, trials runs, and marketing teams back THAN. You've just gotten grumpy and created this utopian fiction about how the past was a garden of eden and we're living in a fallen world now.

[Anonymous No.4496643]

>>4496628
>This is why lately everything feels more sterile

The opposite of that is true...

[Anonymous No.4496647]

>>4496637
What risks did old developers take?

You've got companies putting millions of dollars in new tech research. Many of which is cutting edge. How is that NOT risk?

[Anonymous No.4496652]

>>4496634
those examples are outliers and you know it. even though witcher 3 is an open world medieval rpg ( how original). crysis isnt all that knew, and when it came out it was bench mark for graphics, it definitely wasnt the standard. age of empires 4 is part of a series that redifined rts games when they first came out. i would say that rts games are not the most mainstream games and never have been. nier automota is just awesome, but its the exception. none of them were pushed like destiny 2, fallout 4, call of duty, breath of the wild. those are the true AAA titles and they are the games you see advertisements for everywhere.

yes there are a ton of great *indie* games and devs who are just getting famous i.e. cdpr and there are a bunch of mediocre shit games on steam. these things are not "mainstream".

when you look in the past and realize all the innovations it took to get here, maybe you will appreciate them and look at them deeper, with more respect.

[Anonymous No.4496656]

>>4496647
Many sequels to NES popular games were famously different (Castlevania, Zelda, Mario USA) just as an example.

[Anonymous No.4496661]

>>4496647
it was extremely risky for sony to make the playstation and go toe to toe with nintendo, who saved the western video game market. amiga went heads up trying to innovate, but go took out by pc development and innovation. sega didnt last that long in the console market, hell we have a ton of threads on here bickering about why. the ngage, while technically superior at the time was mocked as a taco phone and is now cast into the pit along with nokia. commodore computers were put out by apple, both vying for the game market, both have great games. atari tried to innovate with its controllers on the 5200 but it was just an oddity/mistake that took them out, the jaguar putting the nails in the coffin. these are just a few examples of old companies trying to innovate, spending millions of dollars into tech and failing. only to be talked about here and by youtube ecelebs.

[Anonymous No.4496664]

>>4496661
except sony, sony and nintendo are still going toe to toe.

[Anonymous No.4496665]

>>4496652
Let's talk the NES to prove my point.

You had platforms most of which played very similar. You had a jump button and maybe an attack button, maybe you had different types of attacks.

You had shmups. You had beat em ups. You had RPGs that were basically dungeon crawlers. Maybe a few 1 screen games or puzzle types.

What's gaming got now? Well it still has platformers and there's more variety in them now, having more than 1 button sure helped with that. There's still beat em ups and there's way more flavors. Koei beat em ups are nothing like Platnium ones. You've got RPGs in way more variety of flavors (jrpg, wrpg, dungeon crawler, etc.)

And than there's the open world games, the fps, survival horror and a million other game genres that didn't exist on the NES. As well as genres that did exist but were practically infantile such as RTS, SRPG, metroidvania.

It's an objective fact there is more variety in play now...

[Anonymous No.4496667]

Consider Castlevania as I've mentioned. In the late 90's Konami experimented with both a Metroid-style game and a 3D game different from the competition.

Imagine CoD now suddenly getting two main entries in a row, one being an arcade-style shoot'em up and the other a single player FPS more akin to SS2 or Deus Ex with RPG / simulation elements.

[Anonymous No.4496676]

>>4495936
You're ruined by normies games from recent years.
Congrats. Fuck off from /vr/.

[Anonymous No.4496680]

>>4496661
You didn't mention any actual advancements in innovation.

Here's a fucking innovation that took risk. The development of game engines. Unreal Engine 4 is 10 years in development and took hundreds of millions of dollars. A company worth more than than old Nintendo, old Sony game dev, and old sega COMBINED stopped making games entirly to make one fucking engine with so many features that just documenting them all has started to take dozens of jobs.

That's totally beyond the scope of the past. They literally couldn't fucking do that if they wanted. They wouldn't have the money.

> only to be talked about here and by youtube ecelebs.
Oh you retarded little insect.....

[Anonymous No.4496682]

>>4496665
Most of the "new genres" you mention aren't being created nowadays, they are late retro / early post-retro era at best (when 3D gaming got refined). Of course, NES was limited, but it's been a while since innovation has been a driving force in the industry.

[Anonymous No.4496684]

>>4496667
We already have non-linear and linear games. Saying "why doesn't X franchise do it" is just grasping at straws.

COD's linear games are way more ambitious than fucking Rondo of Blood and Far Cry 5 makes SoTN seem like a student project in comparassion of scope.

But Far Cry and COD are not part of the same franchise so it doesn't count! Also I hate both game series so they also don't count!

[Anonymous No.4496689]

>>4496682
There's more creation of the new genres than there was in teh past (when they made none). And yeah technology is my point dumb ass. More tech+more money=more innovation.

The battle royal genre literally could not exist in the past because no one had the tech or money. That's innovation. And no the fact that you ahte the genre and your'e mad a youtube celebrity talked about it doesn't invalidate that.

Tech and money are the two most importaint things for innovation. And you get NEITHER when you are "not mainstream"

[Anonymous No.4496690]

>>4496684
>COD's linear games are way more ambitious than fucking Rondo of Blood

Ok, I'm out, have fun buddy.

[Anonymous No.4496701]

>>4495936
this is the reason why ff4 and ff9 are the best ff's

[Anonymous No.4496703]

>>4496665
variety doesnt equal quality.

everything youre talking about i think is good, but its also not mainstream. that was the original argument, mainstream things are not as good as they once were in our culture. not that there isnt innovation happening. nobody was ever arguing that.

open world games did exist in that era of gaming, mercenary 1 and 2, arena, star control 2, elite/frontier elite 2,etc... original zelda was an open world game. fps games were out too, wolfenstein was an 80s fps.

survival horror was on the nes, ever play friday the thirteenth? im also pretty sure there was rts games on the nes.

albiet we did get alot of good development in those genres, it took somebody actually creating them for the evolution of them to happen. and there are alot of old games i listed that have a very unique feel not felt by other games. now, there are alot of games that dont feel unique, they arent new, just rehashes of older games with fancy stuff tacked on.
but, im not saying, there isnt any unique and good games being made, cause thier totally is.

[Anonymous No.4496704]

>>4496680
are you that dumb, it took the innovations of the past to get to a point to even make unreal engine. if amiga, apple, and microsoft were not in competition with each other, there never would have been an unreal engine, you fucking dumbass.

[Anonymous No.4496705]

>>4496703
You're right but why bother, this guy is saying that CoD Campaign > Rondo of Blood, he's btfo'd us forever and ever with that impressive stuff.

[Anonymous No.4496706]

>>4496705
yeah ok im done, hes a good troll.

[Anonymous No.4496737]

>>4496703
>variety doesnt equal quality.

everything youre talking about i think is good, but its also not mainstream

Mainstream is a buzzword so I'm just ignoring it and discussing gaming as a whole. As for the quality issue, that's extremly broad and varies by genre. Platformers suck now compared to the 8 and 16 bit era for instance but other genres are stronger.

>survival horror was on the nes, ever play friday the thirteenth?
LOL Even if we accept that ridiculous premise you're basically saying that the system was total shit for the genre.

>pen world games did exist in that era of gaming, mercenary 1 and 2, arena, star control 2, elite/frontier elite 2,etc... original zelda was an open world game

Zelda is not an open world game. It's not big enough nor does it the visual power to present itself as a world. That's like saying Robotron 2084 is open world because you can go anywhere! No one played Zelda 1 and thought "I'm exploring Hyrule!"

>>4496704
Again all you can fucking discuss is the history of competition. You aren't even telling me what apple and amiga DID that was innovative. If the older times were so much more innovative what fucking gaming innovations happened that were on par with UE4?

>>4496705
>this guy is saying that CoD Campaign > Rondo of Blood, he's btfo'd us forever and ever with that impressive stuff

How about you stop lying like a little bitch about what I said. My point was CoD is more ambitious than Rondo which is absolutly true. CoD is monumentally a larger task.

People like you are absolutely disgusting, out-right lying rather than trying to have a discussion.

[Anonymous No.4496741]

>>4496737
What are you smoking, CoD is copy&paste and has been for many years. Rondo of Blood is a fresh experience for the series with spritework that would be reused many times later.

[Anonymous No.4496748]

>>4496741
>CoD is copy&paste and has been for many years

What the hell is this LOL. Comparing a bit of new sprite-work to a campaign mode that took more man hours than all of the 8 and 16 bit vanias combined.

You might not like the end result of CoD but the amount of effort put into dwarfs Rondo by multitudes. Just the fucking networking programming alone would do that and the visuals even more so.

Rondo is the better game but it's ambitions are tiny. It's just a platformer with partciularly nice sprites and good level design.

[Anonymous No.4496751]

>>4496748
Isn't that what matter? They spend a lot of cash on stupid shit for an end result that's still stagnated just because they know it's a formula that sells.
I prefer game mechanic ambition, thank you. (Which Rondo of Blood had).

[Anonymous No.4496761]

>>4496751
Well the debate is about whether or not things were more innovative or creative in the past. They certainly weren't and the central reason is lack of budget and tech (those two are connected, massive money means you can develop new tech). And you only get money and tech when you go "mainstream"

CoD is a fun example to use because it triggers people. As for the state of mechanics it varies by genre. Platformers suck now compared to Rondo for instance.

[Anonymous No.4496789]

>>4496761
That wasnt the debate, you red herring'ed into that, cause you couldnt win the actual debate. Which was about mainstream creativity.

Youre just a dipshit troll crybaby bitch.

[Anonymous No.4496794]

>>4496761
Rondo of Blood is still more creative than all CoD game from this decade combined, and it isn't THAT creative. Yet still CoD is still selling like hotcakes, I believe the latest one is the best selling console game of the year.

What these guys seem to have noticed is that before the more popular games (the mainstream) were still creative. Now mainstream gaming has stagnated beyond belief.

[Anonymous No.4496795]

>>4496761
People like you should be locked in a cell with each other. Then you can all be right all the time, every time.

[Anonymous No.4496798]

>>4496789
I think I already explained it. You want creativity you need money and technology. That's why there's more creativity now because no matter how much you would want to make Crysis or Bayonnetta on an NES it would be completely impossible.

Mainstream is a meaningless buzzword so you can't discuss it.

You have no arguement other than trying to lie about what I'm saying

[Anonymous No.4496803]

>>4496795
But we're right outside the cell too =^)

>>4496794
What the hell are you even using the word "creative" to refer to?

[Anonymous No.4496805]

>>4496798
Imagine if all the money spent on the latest CoD was spent on actually innovative games.
But it doesn't happen because they have the formula VERY figured out and want easy sales. This is the main complaint with modern mainstream gaming compared to older risks (the jump to 3D for instance was risky as fuck and not all the franchises did it successfully).

[Anonymous No.4496808]

>>4496803
Making a game that plays meaningfully different from another one. It's not that hard to understand; Rondo of Blood has quite a few new aspects not found in earlier Castlevania games.

[Anonymous No.4496821]

>>4496805
>Imagine if all the money spent on the latest CoD was spent on actually innovative games.
I suppose they would just fire their game dev team and send the money to some sort of innovation institute.....

>But it doesn't happen because they have the formula VERY figured out and want easy sales.
I'm pretty sure every company since the dawn of time has wanted sales and has had some sort of formula to do it. You're talking in really stupid terms here.

>>4496808
I think you're getting stuck on the idea of franchises here. There's plenty of differences in various AAA shooters. Generally not in the same franchise but across different franchises.

Rondo is a great game because it's the most refined castlevania, it's mostly the same formula but done better than the others. The only things it did that were totally new were the item crash and the backflip. That's really not much, it was the least experimental vania of it's time not counting those shitty GB ones.

[Anonymous No.4496828]

>>4496737
>Zelda is not an open world game. It's not big enough nor does it the visual power to present itself as a world. That's like saying Robotron 2084 is open world because you can go anywhere! No one played Zelda 1 and thought "I'm exploring Hyrule!"

Literally the point of the of the overworld map (which was a huge innovation at the time)was to explore hyrule.

Kek, youre so dumb.

>My point was CoD is more ambitious than Rondo which is absolutly true. CoD is monumentally a larger task.

You know what else was ambitious and took a shit ton of people and money?
Hillary clintons presidential campaign, and that went well right?

Just cause something is "monumental" doesnt make it good or better in any way.
CoD is a good game that was beaten to death for sales. Its the epitome of mainstream games being molked for profit and not doing anything to make it feel new, like actual innovation.

You talk about the unreal engine, which directly comes from doom destroying amiga in processing power on dos machines in the early 90s. When 386 and 486 machines came out they were the most advanced pcs and they were fucking expensive. This new tech gave computers the ability to have more advanced fps games and engines. Because doom was such a big hit other developers started making better fps games to cash in on the market. Hexen, blood, half life, quake were all made to compete for the doom market. Then counter strike and unreal tournament came out. This is how the natural progression of things went in order for unreal to have existed. Amiga was the most powerful computer before 386 machines. They just couldnt keep up with things like sound blaster audio, voodo graffix and direct x, which were huge innovations in computer technology at the time.

[Anonymous No.4496831]

>>4496821
The different way the different path stuff is implemented is new as well

C'mon, we're only saying the formulaic nature of mainstream stuff has gotten worse, not that it wasn't there to begin with and suddenly poppet out of nowhere.

[Anonymous No.4496851]

>>4496828
>Literally the point of the of the overworld map (which was a huge innovation at the time)was to explore hyrule.

It's just the same ground, bush and mountain textures repeated for 90% of the map LOL. You can travel from one end to another in no time at all. There's no sense of scale.

>This new tech gave computers the ability to have more advanced fps games and engines.
This is general tech. Unreal Engine 4 is designed specifically to make games. The visual coding, the gazillion pre-made codes (like the advanced physics, ai path-finding etc), the texture dev progrom, the particle dev program, the networking. All of it is designed specifically for games. It's a super engine that out is quite literally the best in the bussiness for nearly all types of games (the only exception I know of is sprite-based games, which I'm told there are better engines)

It's not a general tech that was adopted to games like amiga. This sort of big tech development specifically for gaming was never as ambitious as it is now.

>You know what else was ambitious and took a shit ton of people and money?
Hillary clintons presidential campaign, and that went well right?

Well good luck getting your big innovations done without money....after all Hillary Clinton lost with money so that means you must win by being broke right!

>Just cause something is "monumental" doesnt make it good or better in any way.
Put that goal post back....

>>4496831
>C'mon, we're only saying the formulaic nature of mainstream stuff has gotten worse
"mainstream games" is not only a meaningless buzzword but any defination that could be ascribed to it would represent an enormously broad selection of games, so broad as to almost render discussion pointless.

[Anonymous No.4496861]

>>4496851
Mainstream games are a thing. They are the best selling ones, the ones that set the trends, the ones marketed everywhere, etc. I know it's hard to say when a game stops being mainstream or not (the line is blurry) but it IS a thing. CoD is mainstream. Super Mario Bros. for the NES was the mainstream of 1985. Air Gallet for example wasn't mainstream.

[Anonymous No.4496871]

>>4496861
> I know it's hard to say when a game stops being mainstream or not (the line is blurry) but it IS a thing

It's also going to change by region. There's plenty of games that were renowned in Japan but had very little fame or were not even released in the west. There's even different taste in similar countries. Games that were a hit in Europe but not in USA or that were only popular in Germany.

And than there is the absurd rate at which trends come in go (even retro games have trends. Some games I used to think were totally obscure are now apparently "known by everyone"

Trying to seriously discuss this is just silly.

[Anonymous No.4496885]

>>4496851
>It's just the same ground, bush and mountain textures repeated for 90% of the map LOL. You can travel from one end to another in no time at all. There's no sense of scale.

Its still an open world game. If you want scope than try elite frontier, arena/daggerfall, mercenary 2 or star control 2. Elite fronteir is gigantic and is only smaller than no mans sky. But elite frontier has space battles, which are better in elite. Both are enourmous in size and are great space sims. If you can get past the graphics there the best and first space sims that are unique to a tee. They are 3d games that use real dimensions.

Daggerfall is also a gigantic game and one of the first open world games. Its size is still one of the biggest open world maps in existence spanning the size of great britain. Even though the npcs are generic you can still talk to them about a myriad of topics, it has the largest working economy in any game, its locational factions can alter game events and there are infinite radiant quests that actually can throw you for a loop once in a while. It has the best character creation screen ever. You get to customize your character to a fault(besides graphics wise, which seams to be the only important thing to customize anout your character these days).

Star control 2 is a space opera open world, space battle, semi space sim game. Its overworld map is huge and has the most creative alien species of any game. Its plot is not lost by its svope, in fact its plot is very in depth and compelling while not taking itself too seriously. I wish games had stories as elic as this one had.

All these games are old, buy they are more unique a innovative than any games coming out now.

[Anonymous No.4496892]

>>4496885
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcZzlPGnKdU

[Anonymous No.4496910]

>>4495981
This

>>4495957
A good rpg gives you tons of customization options and then what you're able to do in the game changes based on how you've built your party. Wasteland 2 is a perfect example of this, you can break certain things right off the bat but there are enough drawbacks where it will hurt you down the road.

[Anonymous No.4496917]

>>4496885
Zelda 1 is not an open world game dude. The world is fucking tiny, you can explore the whole thing in an hour if you're good. You don't want to explore it because it's immersive or visually interesting (in fact if anything it's a little ugly...) and the discovery proccess won't take too long unless you want to go crazy with hunting for secret squares.

Most of your time is going to be spent in dungeons.

Daggerfall is open world though. I can't comment on Elite.

Daggerfall is one of those games that's great in concept but not execution. Advances in storage capacity, better environmental art, and just more budget for unique assets (aka less copy paste environments) did a lot for the open-world genre.

Open-world games were just one example. The point is that most genres that were done in the past are still being done but we also have new genres. We have more stuff now and because there's way more games (thanks to digital destribution and the medium's growth) and way more tech more experimental stuff happens.

Someone that says there's less games right now is just someone that only plays a few genres, genres that are in a slump like platformers (there's actually more platformers being released now than in the past, it's just that they are mediocre at best)

[Anonymous No.4496921]

>>4496910
I like that idea that you can break certain aspects of a game and suffering consequences. I dont think alot of gamers do though, it would be well implemented in a harder difficulty level.

I recall fucking myself over in fallout by just trying to kill everyone, cause you could. It doesnt end well early to mid game.

[Anonymous No.4496925]

There's more variety in games now but games are generally less challenging and less arcade-like, so they're overall worse regardless of if they're innovative.

[Anonymous No.4496926]

>>4496917
Most traditional 2D genres, and arcade philosophy. RIP new shmups.

[Anonymous No.4496934]

>>4496917
Zelda one is an open world game. Its world is just a bit small.

My point was these games were the forefront of innovation for bringing these genres to life in ways that we really couldnt see coming. We know what the newest games are going to have, 4k 60 fps realistic movies with quick time events and stunning visuals. You will play the same plots with different characters and guns baby, ohh yeah lots of guns and space stuff too, lets not forget the ultra high tech plasma rifle or some kinda of glowing energy projectile flying straight from your anus. We got boxes, loot boxes and skins and so much unnecessary shit for you to spend money on. You thought you already bought the game? WRONG! You want an expansion pack? How about a season pass, thats cool right? Youre part of our club and get exclusives.

Gee i cant wait.

When was the last new genre created? With dota a lol?

[Anonymous No.4496936]

>>4496934
This other guy probably thinks PUBG is innovative

[Anonymous No.4496948]

>>4496934
>Zelda one is an open world game. Its world is just a bit small.

Robotron 2084 is an open world game. It's world is just a bit small. (LttP actually has a larger world than Zelda 1 btw...wonder why the fad amoung idiots isn't to claim that's open)

The rest of your post is you ranting about micro-transactions like an autestic retard. The amount of content in games is massive now even if you never buy dlc or microtransactions. While some of it is shady you're still getting way more stuff on disc than before.

The rest of your ranting is even more stupid. Complaing about the existence of guns (you expecting FPS to not have them or something)! Of good graphics (how terrible. games sux). LOL

[Anonymous No.4496958]

>>4496936
Isn't it the first large scale free for all that didn't fucking suck? How is that not an innovation?

[Anonymous No.4496964]

>>4496948
muh content quantity > quality / depth typical modern garbage stuff

[Anonymous No.4496983]

>>4496948
>LttP actually has a larger world than Zelda 1 btw...wonder why the fad amoung idiots isn't to claim that's open

Lttp is not an open world game. You clearly dont know the definition of open world game.

My "autistic ranting" was like you say the actual state of gaming. I would rather have games that innovate in new ways than just trying to be a movie with joysticks. Its not bad, some games make good use of cinematics, but a large portion of popular games, which could have been called different genres at one point are slowly merging into a blob of mush that lacks creativity and uniqueness by trying to be the most all encompassing game possible.

[Anonymous No.4496993]

>>4496983
Indeed, Zelda 3 is not very "open".
>trying to be the most all encompassing game possible.
I hate this shit in particular so much, they try do be everything yet being good at nothing. These games feel like an ocean with the depth of a puddle.

[Anonymous No.4497008]

>>4496983
>>4496993
Like 80% of LttP's light world is open after you clear the first dungeon. And than 90% of the Dark World is open when you get to that.

Each world is at least as big as Zelda 1's.

There's also more reason to explore. Not is the world better to look at but there's simply more secrets to be found. if I recall Zelda 1 really only has about 3 hearts you can find that do not require guesswork about what to bomb or burn. The world is just there to make the travel to the dungeons a bit tougher or as a means to grind with less risk.

[Anonymous No.4497015]

>>4497008
I guess it's about the more nonlinear approach

[Anonymous No.4497075]

>>4496032
There is nothing challenging in FF and i have played every game by mashing A

[Anonymous No.4497080]

>>4497075
If you grind then yeah >>4496036

[Anonymous No.4497745]

>>4495957
>Its the players choice to limit the role you want to play.
This is stupid, though. An RPG should enforce its rules on you so that your playthrough makes sense.

When I see people defending Skyrim's "but no one is forcing your barbarian to join the College of Winterhold!" I have to wonder if they even understand the difference between roleplaying and playing pretend inside a videogame.

[Anonymous No.4498227]

How do you guys feel about games like Breath of Fire III/IV where characters have obvious strengths and weaknesses but the game still allows you to build them any way you like? You can take a character naturally good at magic but make them more physical oriented for example.

[Anonymous No.4498404]

I think FFX, of all things, had some of the best balance in this regard. Each character had a set class and abilities, but you could have them wander to into each others' skill trees if you really wanted to. It was really only useful for giving characters a handful of extra skills they wouldn't normally get, but if you wanted to go all-in and turn Tidus into a white mage or something, the option was there.

[Anonymous No.4498409]

>>4497075
Every one? 1 through 15? And you feel confident enough to say this thinking nobody could prove this completely untrue?

[Anonymous No.4498416]

>>4498409
That was horrific bait you just gave a (you) to.

[Anonymous No.4499728]

>>4495936
I see that as a good thing. Instead of classes being given a rigid toolset and having characters stay within that class, you create your own classes and shape characters according to your creativity. I don't have the former approach, but I prefer the latter. A big reason why I prefer FF5 over the others.

[Anonymous No.4500443]

>>4496021
Can it learn crabhammer?

[Anonymous No.4501619]

>>4496102
>comment
gotta go back

[Anonymous No.4501673]

>>4496080
> Sharingan!

>>4495936
welcome to Fallout

>>4496110
>>4495957
>>4496102
/pol has rubbed off on me a little bit but its true - back in the 90s all the cool kids had console games but they didnt just sit there playing those games all the time. They were cool because of all the other stuff they did, the video game was an embellishment and yet another arrow in their quiver to get/keep friends, and they studied the street fighter moves so that they could kick everyone else's ass without button mashing.

The SNES or Sega or N64 they had was in the downstairs den and their dad had some retarded rules like they could only play it for 1 hour a day unless they had their friends over.

But their life didnt revolve around games, they were focused on all the other stuff they was going to do including banging chicks, and becoming more like chad.

Geek Culture becoming mainstream? The sophistication of geekdom and looking moderately past the mundane world was an Important advancement in society but it was done horribly and it has failed to disastrous effect. Back in the 90s there were two levels of Geek Culture - there was the Power Gamer who had the nintendo glove and was like a sophisticated version of chad, he was a gamer who could actually get chicks because he was just fucking cool all around and had a personality.
> And then there was the Steve Erkel kind who had a computer and never left his room and was perfectly at ease playing Nethack as he was playing SMB.
We got the Latter form of geek culture. And quite simply the awesome type of gamer dude disappeared, or rather anybody who happens to actually be Chad just picked it up on the side to have it in their quiver.

[Anonymous No.4501692]

>>4501673
This is true, back then I was the "Power Gamer" and my best friend that played with me (I still hang out with him) is the Chad one.

[Anonymous No.4501706]

>>4501673
Sounds like a fucking normie who only plays popular console games. I'd rather hang out with the computer nerd.

[Anonymous No.4501754]

>>4501706
The "Chad friend" I mentioned I have has F-Zero GX as one of his favorite games of all time lol

[Anonymous No.4502473]

>>4495975
>Latter FF titles
>Not mentioning FF2

[Anonymous No.4504258]

>>4495936
The actual state of DnD drones, spilling all over 4chan

[Anonymous No.4504269]

>>4496910
Original Wasteland had somewhat similar approach to things, but your characters were rolled, rather than customised, so it took some time and effort to roll half-decent Rangers. But even ignoring that, you could just go anywhere and do anything, assuming you survived in the first place. There was absolutely nothing stopping you other than death and each character could specialise in whatever you felt like, or everything you could possibly cram on that single Ranger.

[Anonymous No.4504287]

>>4501706
>le normie maymay
Sounds like you are extremely insecure about so little being there to define you as a person a random dude playing vidya, but having other activities beyond that endangers your very self-image, you prancing homo la la man.

You know why back when I was still a kid Tim was the best guy to hang with? Because he was the best runner in school, fantastic goalie, know more anime than rest of us combined, could beat the shit out of you (or defend your sorry ass) and played vidya, while being good at all it. And you know why nobody liked Simon? Because all that he had to offer was sperging over Mario Kart 64 and absolutely nothing else.
Somehow you are trying to project entire subculture of spergs like Simon is a great thing and what one should aspire to be.
Go fuck yourself.

[Anonymous No.4504437]

>>4502473
>(and some of the earlier ones though to a lesser degree)
I swear people here don't read the posts.

[Anonymous No.4504487]

>>4496021
Wrong, retard. It can learn any TM but it can't learn anywhere near all moves. Smeargle can though.

>>4496007
Locked roles can be fun if you still have some freedom. IV is awful at this though since your characters just learn spells by leveling up, which makes it pretty boring and makes you feel very much on rails.

In an ideal RPG, for me, you'd have a unique skill tree per character that you can progress in by spending points or that gives you branching options per X levels. I can't actually name any retro games like this though, although I'm sure there are some.

[Anonymous No.4504564]

>>4504437
>Though to a LESSER DEGREE
FF2 is the epitome of this complaint, though, and so is FF5. I didn't play 9 and forward, but come on now.

[Anonymous No.4504597]

>>4504564
By "to a lesser degree" I meant it wasn't something happening all the time earlier. And even then I consider the cases you mention not as homogenized:
II: It's beneficial to focus on a certain kind of weapon and/or spell/s for each character so they become useful in the long run. Sure, you can grind the hell out of the spells, but this is absolutely tedious (outside of the menu cancel exploit) and unnecessary. Typically you'll have your three main dudes with each having a different weapon type (that end up having different effects and spells to them) as well as different type of magic, like damaging spells for one character, healing spells for another, mixing and matching support or misc ones... In the end your characters don't end up exactly the same.
V: This time every character can be the same but they won't be in practice, you'll choose a different class for each when playing. They can't be everything at the same time until the end with Freelancer/Mimic shenanigans and only after some serious grinding.

[Anonymous No.4504607]

>>4504564
The only thing that's good about FF2 is that it gave birth to the SaGa series.

[Anonymous No.4504850]

>>4496039
Shut up ratmolly.