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/vr/ - Retro Games


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4456178 No.4456178 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]

>graphical powerhouse
>can’t do transparencies
pick one and only one

>> No.4456181
File: 2.85 MB, 720x540, 1513039407736.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4456181

>>4456178
rainbow banding infested flickering pseudo-transparencies don’t count

>> No.4456348

>>4456181
>no rainbow banding or flickering
what did he mean by this

>> No.4456360
File: 103 KB, 1280x720, maxresdefault.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4456360

Lack of proper T&L shading made everything looks bright as fuck which gave the saturn games a distinct blue skies colorful saturated cartoonish 3D look. Daytona wouldn't look as cool with proper lighting imo

>> No.4456368
File: 2.93 MB, 1000x563, 1508052661949.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4456368

>>4456360
Not quite, NiGHTS and quake made extensive use of gouraud shading, which extensively taxed the system. Pic related.

>> No.4456394

As I recall, the Genesis and PlayStation do things similarly, with dithering effects used which don't look smooth on component but which do look smooth on RF and Composite.

I seriously doubt this was a major concern given what most NTSC consumer TVs had as available video inputs.

>> No.4456434

Another anti-Saturn thread?
Damn sony fans.

>> No.4456438

Polygons’ characters on SS looked like dolls made by sands. Very grainy.

>> No.4456441

>>4456178
Super Nintendo can do transparencies and NEO•GEO can’t. Guess that means Super Nintendo is more powerful? Because that’s the most important measure of a system, right?

>> No.4456442

>>4456368
There's a bit of a problem when using something as simple as gouraud shading taxes a 5th gen system, heh.

>>4456394
Every console before 7th gen had at least some games which took advantage of dithering. It's a symptom of low color depth framebuffers. Even the original Xbox had a couple of 16-bit color games.

>> No.4456458
File: 165 KB, 480x480, 1508739596997.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4456458

>not playing games
>cherry picking things that look fine
lol this board

>> No.4456589

>>4456178
It's a graphical powerhouse when the VDP2 can work its magic on 2D games.

>> No.4456596

>>4456178
>>graphical powerhouse

It wasn't one, really.

>>4456360
>Lack of proper T&L shading made everything looks bright as fuck

Everything was bright because nearly all Saturn games used a limited palette due to memory limitations.

>>4456368
>NiGHTS and quake made extensive use of gouraud shading

They had all the lightning pre-baked, not dynamic. As in, they didn't pre-bake the lit textures, but they had to compute the lit colour of every single palette pixel on each texture.

They could do actual dynamic gouraud shading if they wanted, without those silly limitations, but then they had to use 15-bit texture mode which cuts your texture space to half. Oh and then you can't use background shading, oops.

>> No.4456601

not only is it not a graphical powerhouse, it also didn't do 2D games better, despite the popular belief that it did.

Pretty much every 2D game that was on both saturn and ps1, was better on ps1.

>> No.4456610

>>4456601
>Pretty much every 2D game that was on both saturn and ps1, was better on ps1.
Not true at all.

>> No.4456613

>>4456601
>Pretty much every 2D game that was on both saturn and ps1, was better on ps1.

Donpachi and SOTN, and nothing more, really.

Compare Metal Slug or X-men vs Street Fighter between the two consoles. Or even Darius Gaiden or Soukyugurentai.

>> No.4456616

>>4456601
>Pretty much every 2D game that was on both saturn and ps1, was better on ps1.
lol

>> No.4456618

>>4456613
>Metal Slug or X-men vs Street Fighter
Ram Expansion Card.
>Darius Gaiden or Soukyugurentai.
Nothing wrong with those two.

>> No.4456619
File: 2.69 MB, 320x240, segarally_2.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4456619

>>4456178
Could you just fucking calm your tits and enjoy the games?

>> No.4456620

>>4456601
Sony fanboys everyone

>> No.4456624

>>4456178
Something something VDP1 something VDP2.

>> No.4456629
File: 2.17 MB, 320x240, psx_gems.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4456629

>>4456178
psx games didn't look much better man. Its the first mainstream console generation of 3d games.

>> No.4456631

>>4456629
Holy shit that's awful.
That's some net yaroze shit, right? Looks like one of those shitty freeware PC games.

>> No.4456632

>>4456629
That looks like some kind of Net Yaroze homebrew.

>> No.4456634
File: 171 KB, 688x1385, 1509927656337.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4456634

>>4456596
>Everything was bright because nearly all Saturn games used a limited palette due to memory limitations.
It wasn't just that, didn't the Saturn only support a single light source?

>> No.4456639

>>4456178
There's transparency in the HUD though.

>> No.4456640

>>4456634
>perpendicular
I'd have thought the brightest light would be when the normal is parallel to the light, and facing toward it.

>> No.4456642
File: 10 KB, 507x401, baitzone.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4456642

>>4456601

>> No.4456643

>>4456640
OP BTFOd with his own evidence.

>> No.4456648

>>4456643
Meant for>>4456639

>> No.4456658

>>4456178
What game?

>> No.4456660

>>4456658
virtual on

>> No.4456664

>>4456660
is it as good as the ps1 armored core games

>> No.4456669
File: 870 KB, 614x374, hmetalgeomx.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4456669

>>4456664
its more like a arcade fighting game. It can be fun. Depends on how skilled the players are. THere is also a better version on dreamcast called heavy metal geomatrix. Look at my webm to see what I mean by better.

>> No.4456671

>>4456664
Not really, it's a 1on1 fighter.
This is more of a clone on PSX.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P4zLhlAxLw

>> No.4456672

>>4456664
it's better

ac didn't get good gameplay until like the 3rd game on ps2

>> No.4456680

>>4456178
Why is everyone so enamored with that Shenmue tech demo? Sure it’s impressive for the hardware, but was it more impressive than the competition could provide?

>> No.4456682

>>4456680
I still don't think that was Saturn hardware.

>> No.4456686

>>4456682
Why would Sega make a throughly anti-arcade game for one of their arcade boards?

>> No.4456696

>>4456686
Ionno, could have been Dreamcast prototype or something. Why did Shenmue Saturn look so much better than everything else on the console?

>> No.4456741

>>4456696
To be fair, if you look carefully at that footage, you see just how jittery and low framerate it really is in most places. Everybody is enamored by those high polygon characters, but the Saturn is literally throwing all of its power to render those cinematics with nothing else happening in the background except a bit of VDP2 shit.

>> No.4456764

>>4456741
>cinematics
there is gameplay too

>> No.4456773

>>4456764
Yeah but it looks way less impressive.

>> No.4456776

>>4456686
RPGs were popular. Virtua Fighter was popular. Made sense to do a VF RPG.

>> No.4456780

>>4456776
I wish Shenmue was more like that. Actually they did eventually end up making a Virtua Fighter RPG for Game Cube but it looked really bad.

>> No.4456870
File: 23 KB, 500x327, n64-hybrid-heaven-envio-gratis_MLM-O-15008266_9308.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4456870

>>4456776
Someone should hack Hybrid Heaven and make it VF-related. It's closer to a VF RPG than Shenmue is, gameplay-wise.

>> No.4456928

>>4456181
I kinda like it. It's got such a retro feel.

>> No.4456930

>>4456368
except that's a fucking emulator

>> No.4456939

>>4456930
how stupid are you? why are you so desperate to fit in?

>> No.4456941

>>4456939
literally not at all to both questions, I am just a person who cares a lot about videogames

>> No.4456947

>>4456941
explain to me how being recorded from an emulator changes anything about my post? i can literally make another webm using real hardware like in the OPs and they will be identical

>> No.4456959

>>4456947
it's disgusting on principle to any enthusiast who looks at it, you advance the discussion while being lazy and complacent about representation which negatively impacts the culture of gaming even if it's factually accurate

tl;dr: I was criticizing you rather than refuting you, you neurotic piece of shit.

>> No.4456962

>>4456959
i literally recorded the webms in OP off of real hardware

>> No.4456973

>>4456962
I wasn't talking about the webms in the OP.

>> No.4457084 [DELETED] 
File: 2.97 MB, 720x480, nights_svideo.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4457084

>>4456973
you have severe mental autism

>> No.4457094

>>4457084
>720x480
That's the Saturn resolution?

>> No.4457097

>>4457094
I swear I'm gonna hunt you

>> No.4457104

>>4457097
Not the same guy you were arguing with, I'm genuinely curious.
I can say that I have a Saturn, and Nights doesn't look like that, but then again I'm comparing it with what I see on my CRT, and here I'm looking on my PC monitor so obviously it will look different.

>> No.4457107

>>4457104
shit transfer, give me five minutes

>> No.4457113
File: 2.94 MB, 720x480, nights1_svideo.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4457113

>>4457104
>>4457094

>> No.4457119

>>4457113
Much better, I can still see some sort of ghosting effects that are probably due to the video encoding, but this one looks closer to how it actually looks, the other webm looked too dark, and had too much of that ghosting effect.

>> No.4457121
File: 2.94 MB, 720x480, nights_composite.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4457121

>>4457119
if you use composite it'll look more like this

>> No.4457129

>>4457113
>>4457121
If only you had done this from the beginning. I'll accept that you've learned your lesson this time.

>> No.4457169

>>4457129
Fuck you.

>> No.4457172

>>4457169
not me, disregard

>> No.4457174

>>4457172
Don't be a little bitch

>> No.4457178

>>4457174
kill yourself

>> No.4457180

>>4457178
Yes you should. Jesus you actually took the time to record a webm to some dickhole and you even apologized for it. Don't be someone's bitch.

>> No.4457182

>>4457178
And you recorded multiple versions of the webm too. Holy shit.

>> No.4457183

>>4456672
homo spotted

>> No.4457189

>>4457180
>for someone
I was gonna do it anyway
>apologized
where, specifically?

>> No.4457204 [SPOILER] 
File: 1.36 MB, 1192x932, 1513125825511.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4457204

>>4457183
I mean, yeah

>> No.4457254

>>4457204
kill yourself

>> No.4457715

>>4456973
>>4457129
I want you guys to know that these were my two last posts and a completely separate individual took up the argument while I was gone and OP still sperged out like he knows who anonymous is

>> No.4458224

>>4456178
okay, I thought about this, and came to a conclusion. The devs wanted the possibility of explosions filling the whole screen. But they also wanted the players always to be able to see everything, so they can react because it is a competetive 2 player fighting game.

So they needed transparent effects that can fill the whole screen. But because of 2 two player competetiveness and expertize in that area they knew they also needed a high and stable framerate.

So if they had used alpha transparency and one or more effects filled the full screen they would have to redraw the whole screen. It doesn't exactly would cut your framerate in half, but it does have a critical impact on how you design your code. You can either kick out alot of details from your game to make it run faster so you CAN redraw the full screen for some effect. Or you have more polygones and colors and even boost the framerate, by filling every second pixel with the effect with a simple color. And draw every other pixel with the actual image.

The question is do you want a good game or transparency?
Transparency is always possible because you can coding it is super easy, but it is slow as fuck. For each alpha layer you have to redraw the affected pixels. For each transparent sprite you have to redraw a portion of the screen even when they overlay.

If you 10 transparent fullscreen sprites in a resolution of 640x480, you have to do this:
newpixelcolor = oldpixelcolor*(1-overlay_alpha) +overlaypixelcolor*(overlay_alpha);

3072000 times.


And because we aren't some stupid kids from some stupid country, we know plus and minus are the only operators that exist. Multiplying and dividing doesnt exist. Those are just names for a certain way of adding or subtracting numbers. And that means the processor has to do not 3072000 cycles... Multiplying is a loop.
If we calculate with two decimals you get 307200000 processor cycles only for the transparency not including colorswaps.

>> No.4458229

>>4458224
I forgot we have to multiply twice (old and new color) so add another 2 zeros to the cycles. Or calculate just with one decimal. Of course a compuetr doesnt calc in decimal, but in byte, so it wouldnt be 100 (for 2 decimals), but 256 or 64.

>> No.4458316

>>4458224
Dude, transparency is handled in the graphics hardware, it doesn't consume CPU cycles.

>> No.4458346

>>4456601
You fucking idiot. Look at kof, Samurai Shodown 3, and other 2d fighting games.

>> No.4458379

>>4458316
You are of course right, but not in every case. People say the saturn has no (graphic cpu) -transparency. I am just saying transparency is always possible and a very simple concept. Just very taxing (for the graphic cpu too).

>> No.4458561

>>4456619
this

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