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/vr/ - Retro Games

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File: 92 KB, 637x768, 20171210_223634.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4453078 No.4453078 [Reply] [Original]

Why was the Saturn such a fuckup lads?

>> No.4453086

Because the creators were fucking retarded and the faggot fanboys on this board jerk off with their tears as lube because their daddies beat the shit out of them because they'll never be as good as a sonyfag

>> No.4453089
File: 112 KB, 304x400, tumblr_p01c0nSGnj1wjoloco3_400.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

No Yakuza games

>> No.4453090

but it has le funny japanese karate man

>> No.4453097

Crash > some piece of shit memelord.

>> No.4453103 [DELETED] 


>> No.4453106
File: 35 KB, 275x319, 1512849852679.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Why does /vr/ jerkoff the Saturn despite knowing the PS1 is superior in every way lads? Contrarian hipsters for the sake of it, or did all the PS1 Chads steal their Jennies?

>> No.4453110
File: 373 KB, 1024x682, image.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

tbf, memelord implies he's actually a meme, and not a forced literally who mascot

>> No.4453114
File: 20 KB, 263x321, commander-keen-is-T-800.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>announcement goofiness that didn't allow hype to build
>no solid Sonic game to help push it
>kind of crummy at 2d sometimes like OP

>> No.4453119

>let Namco, Squaresoft and Capcom release their top titles as PS1 exclusives

>> No.4453130
File: 63 KB, 640x480, sotn1.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

One of the few things that can be fixed in an emulator (sometimes).

>> No.4453134

Saturn has:
better disc drive
shorter loading times
actual good 1st party titles
This is what gen Z actually believes

>> No.4453138
File: 68 KB, 640x480, sotn2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]


>> No.4453139

Thread isn't about emulating the Saturn, which is just to play shittier versilns of games, unless for some reason you'd want to play it's 3 asstacular exclusives, it's about why it was such a piece of shit console.

>> No.4453141

I was born in the 80s, so IDK what shit you're on about mate.
It had shit first party games.

>> No.4453149

Such a shit console.

>> No.4453150

I like my saturn better for a number of reasons

>God tier controller
>unbeatable shmup and fighting library
>many personal favorite games of mine are saturn exclusive, like Shining Force III, Radiant Silvergun, and Dragon Force
>snk and capcom ports are near arcade perfect
>collecting imports is fprobably like the saturn because it flopped and ps

but yeah you do have a point. Most probably like the saturn because it flopped and ps1s are common as fuck. Id probably like the playstation better if I didn't already own 40 saturn games from when they were cheap. (and I don't like final fantasy)

>> No.4453152
File: 325 KB, 419x233, YFhbmpb.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>God-tier controller

>> No.4453153

>>unbeatable shmup and fighting library
Honestly think the Dreamcast was better

>> No.4453154
File: 15 KB, 325x229, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

explain how this is not perfection

>> No.4453156
File: 72 KB, 353x439, 1503370320640.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>god-tier controller
>that shitty d pad
>uncomfortably obese shape
You insane?

>> No.4453159

Are you thinking of the Model 1 america controller? If so I don't blame you it's a piece of shit.

>> No.4453162

>Shitty D-Pad
>Shape made specifically for fat fucks

>> No.4453163

No sticks
Only 2 shoulder buttons

>> No.4453169
File: 122 KB, 1500x1176, 71d+mlMDLgL._SL1500_.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

An actual god tier controller.
>comfy shape
>natural grip
>easily identifiable buttons
>godlike d-pad
>responsive yet firm analogue sticks
>perfect shoulder buttons
>inspired all controllers after it

>> No.4453173

Yet ANOTHER 5th gen console war, /vr/? What's this, /v/'s place to do their shitty console wars but with their nostalgic consoles from their childhood (that happen to be the last gen fully allowed on /vr/)?

>> No.4453202
File: 759 KB, 1170x658, 1512458566764.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Real answer: the entire Japanese game industry has been a long, patient confucian plot to culturally infiltrate and memetically cultivate the West. There's a reason all the big names have/had headquarters within spitting distance of the old imperial palace in Kyoto and have known yakuza ties.

Sega had served its purpose as the Pepsi to Nintendo's Coke and it was time to retire them to make way for phase 3, with Sony bridging the rest of the market (you don't really believe that "Nintendo Playstation" story is how it really went down, do you? It was just clever marketing to give them a sense of legitimate parity with the market leader).

So Sega took a dive.

>> No.4453208

that might have worked on 90s kids but millennial kids don't give a shit about anime and tumblrina kids born after 2010 don't even know a single japanese game besides Nintendo

>> No.4453215

It's /v/'s way to vent their frustration for DC being allowed but not their precious PS2.

>> No.4453216
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>godlike d-pad
The delusions of the sonyggers.

>> No.4453217

Oh look it's this thread again
If you're looking at a Saturn for a few games it didn't do the best at, you're always going to be disappointed.
If you look at the Saturn as a personal Arcade machine for home entertainment, you'll have the best time in the world, because that's pretty much what it and the Neo-Geo were.
So yeah, cool, Sega didn't do Megaman as well as Sony did. Good job.
I'll note PS1's arcade ports were pretty shit in general, so it goes both ways.

take your console wars elsewhere, they stopped being fun over a decade ago. Stop being a fucking faggot and find something semi-original to say.

>> No.4453223

>actual good 1st party titles

There are plenty of those on PS1.

>> No.4453225

Ape Escape and Legend of Dragoon are not 'plenty'.

>> No.4453232

>godlike d-pad

I don't wanna say the d-pad is bad, but you don't want to be doing half circles on that thing for a long time, unless you like getting calluses.

>> No.4453238
File: 81 KB, 560x467, 1510376620905.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Hmm yes but 80s/90s kids are the ones on the verge of entering politics and other positions of cultural power you fucking moron. Yeah man there's absolutely no value in controlling all of their favourite game and cartoon and comic book franchises whatsoever. Idiot.

Also, the Sega Saturn thing we're talking about happened in like 1995 and has nothing whatsoever to do with 2010 tumbloids so even if they'd shut down the whole industry in 1999 you'd still be a fucking moron.

>don't even know a single japanese game besides Nintendo
Ah well good thing SONY HAS A GIANT SPRAWLING MUSIC, FILM AND GAME MONOPOLY. Everything is Japanese, cyberpunk was right.

>phase 3, with Sony bridging the rest of the market
Oh hey I said that already, you triple retard.

>> No.4453240

>90's kids
>Not Millenials
You do realize the Millenial generation is from roughly as far back as 1984, right?
And on the subject of no one watching anime, it's quite literally one of the highest grossing entertainment industries in the world. There's more demand for it here in the USA than there ever was previously, hence why we continually see more shows getting English dubs, even though people who actually watch anime tend to watch subbed. There are huge fandoms for plenty of anime shows that have sprung up in the last 10 years, the fandom for Evangelion alone proves you wrong seeing as pretty much everyone has seen it.

On the jap games though, you are correct. No one gives a shit about them as much these days. Back in the 90's and mid 00's people were fucking insane about Jap games, that's just not a thing anymore, really. I knew guys who were importing left and right so they could play the games before they got released in the USA. You never hear about that anymore.

>> No.4453241
File: 54 KB, 600x337, y0re-1-600x337.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>tfw no one has argued against your point because your point is >>4453089

>> No.4453248

Medievil 1 and 2, C-12 Final Resistance, Gran Turismo 1 and 2, Everybody's Golf, Wipeout 3 (1 and 2097/XL were also first party, but were ported to other systems), Parappa the Rapper, Blasto, and probably many other non-shovelware tier titles.

Screw half circles, even pressing a single button really strong is enough to leave you an arrow shaped mark on your thumb.

>> No.4453252

>uncomfortably obese shape
Can't handle the THICC, lad?

>> No.4453265

It's a SNES pad with handles and analogue sticks.

>> No.4453268

Pretty much none of those were actually developd by Sony themselves though.


>> No.4453270

Except that all Japanese games are yakuza games, anon. None of these companies even try to hide their ties to gambling and sex.

>> No.4453273

>millennial kids don't give a shit about anime
Millennials pretty much drove the whole fucking anime boom in America

>> No.4453279

Gambling, sex and underage porn. Being a nerd in Japan is so based.

>> No.4453281

1. they botched up VDP1 -> VDP2 interaction.
2. VDP1 was slow.

That's about it in a nutshell.

There are some other small problems like the cart port being too dense, main ram being split in two halves at different speeds, sound chip not having adpcm support, and the DSP being too difficult and only a little faster (if it ran at full clockspeed, it could've been ridiculously powerful).

Also a 256px/512px wide framebuffer mode would've been really useful, and if they do that they also should've uncoupled the system clock from the video system, so the main cpu can run at full speed no matter the video mode.

>> No.4453284

>weeabos holding positions of power
LMAO Who's the idiot now?

>> No.4453290

Yes and the USA fans are the ones demanding they tone down the fanservice, violence, japanese culture, high school girls, include more minorities and dub everything in English. Basically the USA fans are destroying the very essence of Anime and turning it into another Hollywood cinematic Marvel universe. Well job.

>> No.4453295

>Pretty much none of those were actually developd by Sony themselves though.

I admit some of them like Everybody's Golf and Parappa weren't exactly first party, but for the rest, please fuck off.


That's like saying STI weren't first party.

>> No.4453296

Why was the PSX such a fuckup lads?


>> No.4453301

>If you look at the Saturn as a personal Arcade machine for home entertainment, you'll have the best time in the world
What advertisement did you regurgitate this from, faggot

>> No.4453306

Not only the backgrounds look much better on Saturn, but the music sounds like shit. What the fuck?

I also have this comparison, "Genocide Machine" from Super Robot Wars F on Saturn:
Now the same track on PS1, also known as "Banjocide Machine"

>> No.4453307

yeah you're definitely gonna win by denigrating anime nerds on an anime nerd forum, sweet strategy.

the thing is, there ARE no non-weeaboos of that particular generation. You know the Pokemon tagline, "gotta catch em all"? They weren't talking about pokemon, they were talking about Western kids.
Meanwhile, Dragon Ball Z (which like evangelion is a buddhist trojan horse) was translated into every Western language and broadcast on TV every day before school (and with a clock on the screen so adults couldn't tell kids they can't watch it or they wouldn't get ready which is a smooth fucking move) for like a decade.

Even if you somehow managed to grow up at that time without watching anime or playing an anime game, there's no way you were doing so without playing games at all, and they controlled the ENTIRE games industry from the beginning. Meanwhile Sony had been conquering music at least since like the 70s.

Look up what the word "Atari" means.

>> No.4453308

Cool, I've always heard of the much lauded Saturn infinite background plane capability but I've never actually seen it in action.

>> No.4453313

>anime nerd forum,
Pfft, Reddit is actually more of an Anime forum than here.

>> No.4453317

Yes anon, we all watched the Chimpokomon south park episode.

>> No.4453318

Atari derived from 当り屋 which means jumping in front of cars to extort insurance money.

>> No.4453321

He's right.

>> No.4453323

So what you're saying is, when someone makes a political satire, they invent it out of whole cloth and the thing they're satirising isn't actually real.

Well that's a relief.

>> No.4453325

Psygnosis and Guerilla count as second-party, as they were independent of Sony and only acquired later (like Rare with Nintendo).

I'll concede the GT's and Blasto are Sony games however.

>> No.4453326

That's correct. And when sci-fi in the 70s predicted we'd all be speaking Japanese and using Yen by the year 2000, they weren't basing that on any actual cultural trends they were percieving. It's just a funny joke.

That Vapors song never really meant anything either.

>> No.4453328

If you're gonna get worried about other countries trying to expand their culture into the west, OR control the whole western culture, there's other countries you should be worried before Japan.
Japan doesn't really care about the west as much as you think.

>> No.4453329

Which is which?

>> No.4453330
File: 1.09 MB, 1920x1080, 1512451710754.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Yeah, Japan has absolutely no motivation to pursue a cultural victory over the West.

>> No.4453332

>That Vapors song never really meant anything either.
I heard it was about wanking.

>> No.4453334
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Japs literally kiss white people's ass so fucking much. They literally hate their own race and make every single character in their Animes blue eyed, blonde and with caucassian features.

>> No.4453335

>(like Rare with Nintendo)

Wasn't Rare's affiliation with Nintendo sort of like Naughty Dog's before the PS3 era or Insomniac pre-Fuse? Like "we're third party, but we may as be second-party because we're committed to your console"?

>> No.4453336

I'd be surprised if the west openly accepts japanese culture. Thing is, Japan doesn't want/need to change their own culture to be likeable to the west.
For some reason, the west likes some japanese stuff, but a lot of it is also left in Japan because it's too "problematic" for the west.
Korean pop is a lot more western-friendly, and the south korean government actually studied, funded and implemented a plan to inculcate Kpop into the western youth. Check /mu/'s page 0 if you don't believe me.

>> No.4453337

If you have to guess then you weren't paying attention.

>> No.4453339

Blasto and Medi2 were fucking trash, are you trying to make Sony's first-party line-up look good or bad?

>> No.4453343
File: 34 KB, 303x475, is6.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

anime characters look like anime, they look neither asian or white.
Although Katsura can draw some nice japanese girls.
but yeah, japanese aren't interested in being like the west. Else they'd be implementing western SJW politics, and they're one of the capitalist countries that do it less, they don't care.

>> No.4453346

Well the second one looks better, so I'd say that was the Saturn. But you'd think they'd have put some captions on the vid.

>> No.4453351

I think /mu/ is full of shit and what they call indoctrination is just a fucking marketing strategy.
That's like saying Hollywood wants to take over the Chinese youth ohmaigad

>> No.4453352

While we're at it, let's talk about why the PS1 was such a piece of shit too. The only good console of the entire gen was the Nintendo 64. Revolutionary games and control method that set the standard for everything to comes, games that still hold up to this day, the best graphics, the best hardware, no load times. Both the Saturn and PS1 were trash cans with terrible graphics, terrible build quality and nothing but gay anime games. Anyone who says otherwise is literally retarded.

>> No.4453353

white people definitely =/= western culture at this point in history. where's the cultural enrichment in that privileged statement of yours?

>> No.4453354

I heard that had something to do with prisoners on American internment camps mastering Western animation (for some reason a lot of cartoonists get started in concentration camps, who knows) and bringing it back with them. It makes sense that their skills would be capitalised upon to reach a broader market. And at a certain point that aesthetic just becomes conventional, particularly when it's also reinforced by imported entertainment.

That's a straw man though. Nobody said Japan is trying to implement Japanese culture in the west, just that they have been actively infiltrating and manipulating our culture.

I mean look at where we're having this discussion.

>> No.4453358

You didn't understand shit, what I mean is that the Kpop general thread is ALWAYS on page 0 on /mu/, it's literally the most popular thread.
Kpop has broken the barrier of language and became mainstream in the west. Part of it is because the music is putrid shit that low IQ americans like to consume, but still.

>> No.4453360
File: 294 KB, 1746x861, Currently Funding 30 Original Anime Productions.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>Else they'd be implementing western SJW politics,
Dohohoho you pathetic little naive weeb.

>> No.4453362

>just that they have been actively infiltrating and manipulating our culture.
Isn't that Israel?

>> No.4453365

>Kpop general thread is ALWAYS on page 0 on /mu/, it's literally the most popular thread.
So you're saying the Korean government wants to take over the Western youth by shitposting on /mu/. YOU'RE A FUCKING RETARD

>> No.4453368

It's still far better than your country and my country as far as SJW goes, though.

>> No.4453371

Shhh, it's ok when (((they))) do it.

>> No.4453372

It's called an example, /mu/ is the general music board on 4chan, one of the most visited websites on the internet.
And yeah the fact the south korean gov funded a campaign to spread Kpop in the west is real, look it up retard.

>> No.4453374

Thankfully Netflix and the Tumblr anime fans won't allow that for long. Dog bless America.

>> No.4453375

ohh I get it, sorry!
Dem evil japs! they're corrupting children with pokemon! D:

>> No.4453378

I think it's a mistake to treat Japan and Korea dichotomically like they're different places.

The ancient Confucian capital was Pyongyang, and the Confucian "empire" was all over China, Japan and Korea. All three use Hanzi/Kanji/Hanja. All three got fucking raped by the West. We're supposed to think they all hate each other, but that's clearly bullshit.

Basically all East Asian politics since the 1860s is a fucking smokeshow for the West's benefit.

>> No.4453379

The government funds a lot of media by giving out tax exemptions. It's called economy. I don't think you're old enough to understand how society works.

>> No.4453382

Actually no, you've got that shit backwards. Both the US and Israel are puppets of older European power structures. Jews aren't even real.

>> No.4453383
File: 53 KB, 699x677, 8fmCrX2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I mean can you really browse 4chan and say with a serious face that weeb culture did not have a negative culture on youth?

>> No.4453385

Well, you may be right, but there's a fact specifically talking about music. Japan produces its own pop with its own distinct sound, that doesn't care about catering to the west.
Korean pop is made to be as western as possible, they try to imitate whatever is trendy in USA and Canada.

The funny thing is that korea has never produced any significant musical act, there's only trashy modern Kpop and some old popular music that nobody remembers.
Japan have us YMO, which greatly influenced techno, house, hip hop, etc.

I think Japan and Korea are significantly different, yes.

>> No.4453386

>Not only the backgrounds look much better on Saturn, but the music sounds like shit. What the fuck?

The music sounds "worse" because the volume is turned down. You can change the music / SE volumes in the options though, so you can just pump up the music volume and have it sound the same.

The backgrounds look worse because the PSX has less memory. But in return, the PSX doesn't have super heavy frame skipping. Try holding down fire with the Hunter weapon as soon as you get it on stage 1, when the large purple robot jumps out of the sea the Saturn version will have an epileptic fit.
The second to last boss (Guardian's Womb) is nearly impossible to beat without getting hit on the Saturn because the graphics DISAPPEAR mid-fight.

Of course, you won't see either of those problems on youtube since they all just record emulators, and Saturn emulators run the game at higher speeds without the slowdowns.

>> No.4453387

Koreans haven't used that anymore for 2 centuries.

>> No.4453389

Why would I blame eastern cartoons for the stupidity of western society? If it wasn't anime, it would be football or music or whatever.

>> No.4453390

>Pfft, Reddit is actually more of an Anime forum than here.

That's because userbase while, reddit is closer to what 4chan was in the 00s, while 4chan today is a tumblr tier bitchfest in most boards.

>> No.4453391

I don't know, would you look at yourself and admit you're a loser? Easier to just pretend there is not a problem.

>> No.4453394


>> No.4453396

I mean, were they corrupting us or were they making us better?

Remember shitlordes were getting up in arms about the game containing the word "evolution", yet nobody got mad about Jinx for like a decade.
Meanwhile there's this whole ticking time bomb of Zen philosophy in Pokemon that hasn't gone off yet.

It'd be crazy to use these technological tools simply to perpetuate the same cycles of animosity and revenge.

Nah, it's still in common use. It's just the "formal" mode for like fancy/official stuff. Everyone can read it.

>> No.4453397

ad hominem isn't a nice way to have a discussion anon.

>> No.4453401

Yeah but kpop was a direct development of jpop, right?

>> No.4453402

Fuck you too you little weebo bitch.

>> No.4453403

Maybe in the 90s, but since the 2000s they've only been copying USA and Canada radio music and trends.

>> No.4453404

I forgot Omega Boost, which was from the GT guys, and Syphon Filter even though it's technically second-party according to >>4453325.

Anyway this first-party thing is nonsense, it's only worth talking for SEGA and Nintendo because

1)They were given total and utter specs of the hardware, and they knew exactly what to do and how to do it, something third party studios had to guess and lose time figuring out, Saturn and N64 being sadly the prime examples.

2)They are made from the console manufactors so you expect them to be good and try to experiment new stuff that sets apart their console from competitors, go through heaps of QA and push the console as much as they can.

3)Publishing is very wide-spread and there are less collateral costs devs have to think about.

Sony had all three of them in the bag, since the PSY-Q toolset was used internally by Sony and every developer bar none, because of this all games pushed the hardware as hard as the developer wanted, they didn't nope out creative ideas every game had to be 3D or some crap, and Sony literally owned CD manufacturing facilities and had very good deals for mass production. It was third party heaven.

>> No.4453405


>> No.4453408

Just because I don't think Japan is worse than, say, Korea or Israel, doesn't mean I'm a weeb.

>> No.4453412
File: 222 KB, 720x577, rapidash.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Do you know what Son Goku's name means?

>> No.4453413

Dumb talking monkey who flew on a nimbus and wielded an extending cane from Journey to West.
Btw this has NOTHING to do with pokémon.

>> No.4453414

That is Chinese culture you fucking retard. Back in my time weeabos used to be smart, Jesus Christ.

>> No.4453415

>not realizing he's baiting

>> No.4453416

>trojan horse
Holy Fucking Fuck. And yes I know the three legendary dogs and Arceus were based on Shinto mythology, not even the Japanese actually give a fuck about Shinto and that has nothing to do with Zen phylosophy.

>> No.4453418

If he's merely pretending to be retarded then that's a really convincing prank.

>> No.4453428

That's a description of Son Wukong, not the meaning of his name, Einstein.

>That is Chinese culture
You realise "China" didn't exist back then, right? It's buddhist culture. And spoiler: there's a clue in the title.

I'm not talking about what pokemon are based on you fucking moron. What exactly would be "philosophical" about a disposeable cultural reference?

You guys seem really triggered for some reason. Could it be a symptom of confronting your ignorance? Learn a lesson from Goku and accept your confusion, lest you hurt yourself in it.

>> No.4453430

Anime hasn't negatively influenced this generation any more than video games, comic books, general movies and tv shows etc

escapism is escapism, you're bound to find losers gravitating towards it.

>> No.4453435

Doesn't Goku mean grandson of heaven or some shit
>Not only is Goku loosely based on Sun Wukong, the main protagonist in the Chinese legend Journey to the West, but their names are in a way, exactly the same; Son Goku (孫悟空) is a Buddhist name that means “The Child Aware of Emptiness” or "Grandson that Perceives Air" and comes from his character development based on Sun Wukong (in Chinese and Japanese: 孫悟空; Sūn means "grandchild" in both languages and implies his origin as a monkey, and Wùkōng means "Aware of Emptiness"). The Wu syllable means "Enlightenment", and the Kong syllable means "Sky, Air or Emptiness". Sun (孫) is also a common Chinese surname. From there, the name Son Goku is simply the name Sun Wukong converted into the Japanese on'yomi reading, albeit even with the same exact Asian characters used between both "Wukongs/Gokus" (孫 悟空), due to the similar writing systems both Chinese and Japanese happen to share with hanzi/kanji.

>> No.4453437

Not that guy but I'm interested, what Zen philosophy is in Pokémon?

>> No.4453446

Government supports the American TV, Radio, Movies and Music industry too through tax exemptions. In fact, every government does it. Of course they want their domestic product to be as successful as possible, there's no big conspiracy behind that.

>> No.4453450

Nah, it's really multi-layered. That greentext covers it.

"Accept nothingness, monkey" is the best translation I've heard. But it's written like a regular name, so it's a pun.

Before that "dragonball isn't pokemon" fag comes back, I posted this as an allegorical response to the idea that Pokemon couldn't possible contain philosophy.

This path is long and you must walk it alone, anon.

>> No.4453453

I never said there's a conspiracy, it's official. Korean government invests into expanding Kpop in the west.
Other countries' governments don't really do that.

>> No.4453460

Meanwhile the entire South Korean economy is a giant conspiracy.
What's really the difference between communism and total chaebolism?

>> No.4453464

This thread right now in a nutshell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9McGKrxOnB8

>> No.4453465

Except they do, man. It's basic import economy. You can make sure the Brit, French and Polish gobermint gave tax exemptions to Rare, Team17, Ubisoft and CD Projekt Red too.

>> No.4453468

Later in the stage, there's a translucent tube that proves the Saturn CAN do transparencies. The Saturn is just a very quirky piece of hardware, so using meshes achieves the same end result over a composite connection (which pretty much everyone used back then) while VDP1 and 2 do other things.

>> No.4453470


Oh. So there's really nothing and you're just bullshitting. Carry on, then.

>> No.4453471

So this one time I was in LA for the Phantom Pain ARG and they put me in this room and told me to wait and at the other end of the room there was Will Smith, staring at me wordlessly for about five minutes.

True story.

>> No.4453473

There's that Japanese youtuber that explains it in detail. I *think* in this video:
It wasn't so much a problem of not being able to do it, more like it made objects disappear behind it and was complicated and slow as fuck.

>> No.4453478

Cool, did you rap to the opening of Fresh Prince of Bel Air to him?

>> No.4453479

Anon declares victory, recieves medal.

>> No.4453483

I had fun. It was a fair fight, kid. *seethes katana*

>> No.4453489

Shit, was I supposed to?

>> No.4453497

This isn't just "tax exemptions", the korean government is invested into actively spreading the Kpop virus in the west.

>> No.4453502

That's exactly what America has been doing all along with Rap and Hip Hop isn't it? Maybe you deserve to take a taste of your own medicine.

>> No.4453505

I'm not American though. But yeah, good call, South korea tries to imitate USA a lot.

>> No.4453509

Street Fighter Alpha 3 alternating pixel dithering indistinguishable from actual transparency on CRT screens. Every other frame the transparent and solid pixels swapped positions. I wonder why more games didn't use it.

>> No.4453521

Because that would require the game to run at stable 60fps, it's not something that is easily achievable with the hardware at the time (esp. with everyone going 3D).

>> No.4453523

Yeah, that's exactly it. The Korean music industry is set up like a bioweapons development programme, and nobody can say shit because it's "just business".

>> No.4453526

You're right, I'm dumb. Still, at least more 2D games could have used it.

>> No.4453532

Dude, how is K-pop more degenerate than Miley Cyrus or fucking XXXTentacion .

>> No.4453539

They're getting there, slowly but surely.
After all, they have to follow the steps of papa Sam.

>> No.4453542

I'be more worried as a Korean dad who caught his children listening to American pop than the other way around.

>> No.4453546

Miley Cyrus's career has been running for ten years at this point.

In kpop unless you're wildly popular you get a few months and are then thrown in a woodchipper after your fluids have been harvested for analysis to breed the next memes

>> No.4453557

And everybody thought k-pop would be the next big thing after gangnam style but nobody gave a shit.

Only lonely weeabos and yaoi fangirls care about idolshit and boybands.

>> No.4453569

Very cool video, thank you for posting.

>> No.4453571

Because standard console connections used composite, and normal dithering already looked fine enough that way.

From the top of my head, alternating dithering was used in SvC Chaos, Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3, Super Mario World, and Vampire Savior on Saturn with a cheat code.

The Saturn transparency quirk is simple. You either do per-polygon transparencies or you do per-background transparencies. You can't mix both, since one requires RGB framebuffer and the other requires Palette based framebuffer.

In practice, people used palettes because with palettes you can also specify per-pixel z-index regarding the backgrounds. ie. you can make one sprite appear behind a background, and another in front of it. It's way more flexible.

This was the biggest fuckup of the VDP1.

>> No.4453575
File: 85 KB, 1280x720, maxresdefault.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>Super Mario World,
Oh yeah that's true, the scrolling water effect. Good call.

>> No.4453583

While the effect was prettier with composite, the dotclock (256px wide) of the SNES didn't allow the same blending efficiency as the MD/Saturn. Now, the 512px dotclock was made for semi-transparencies among other things.

>> No.4453594
File: 26 KB, 480x360, hqdefault.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>Now, the 512px dotclock was made for semi-transparencies among other things.
What's that, the 480i HUD in Fighting Vipers?

>> No.4453601

I was still talking about the SNES. 480i doesn't give any kind of blur/transparency aid due to the nature of analog raster video.

>> No.4453602

the dithering on Vampire savior was alternating the "RGB" and "S-video" option, right? Which one is supposed to look better on a CRT? I couldn't tell honestly.

>> No.4453604
File: 174 KB, 960x720, ea660-av-vs-s-video.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Dither is supposed to blend

>> No.4453607

B-but muh superior 2D powerhouse

>> No.4453610

I think supply side economics had a hell of a lot worse effect, but you go ahead and keep crusading against cartoons.

>> No.4453614

Gotta go fast.

>> No.4453616

90s kids are millennials you dumb f*ck.

>> No.4453617

Those are types of cables, dude. What are you talking about?

>> No.4453619

I can't tie this statement to that post. What are you trying to communicate, anon?

>> No.4453620

I think he might be ironic. Oh wait you're being ironic too, right.

>> No.4453621

That's why I put them on quotes and said option.
The secret menu on VS Saturn has an option to switch between an "RGB" and "S-Video" mode. It's meant to change the dithering effects and how they display, I think.

>> No.4453626

That was really neat. I think the guy's Chinese and not Japanese, based on the way he speaks, though.

>> No.4453629

You're correct, he's Chinese. I remembered his channel wrong.

>> No.4453630

I thought I heard him say he was Korean but he was pretty hard to understand. I thought he was Chinese at first.

>> No.4453632

He's American, he just does the accent to be obnoxious.

>> No.4453648

what a weeabo

>> No.4453692

I have no argument, and I must scream

>> No.4453715

>Most of the game library is arcade ports that are near perfect
>What ad did you copy

>> No.4453719

>Says x isn't a thing
>Gets called on bullshit
>Agrees then says the fans are ruining it
Pick a side and stay on it. Own up to the fact that you were talking out of your ass (And frankly still are, because the fandom that's demanding more minority roles is pretty small and relegated mostly to Tumblr and a few subreddits) or stop talking about things you really don't know much about.

>> No.4453727

I like Saturn, but I like Playstation more. Dithering doesn't bother me.

>> No.4453748

You're dithering by not picking one, and only one, console.

>> No.4453785

>no Sonic
>dev tools got rushed out the door like everything else

that's it, really
transparency wasn't a big deal, and even the Saturn's comparative lack of performance wasn't the utter nail in the coffin people think of it as (otherwise, the PS2 wouldn't have survived its competition, the Genesis wouldn't have survived the SNES, etc)

as someone who routinely uses this controller -- the d-pad is just okay and the original DualShock's sticks are way too loose, and that's right out of the factory, let alone after years of use

Thunder Force 5 sucks on Saturn because it framedrops so much. Slightly nicer backgrounds aren't worth it.

>> No.4453807


>> No.4453821

I swear we must have had this kind of thread every day for the past few months on this board. What the hell is this vendetta against the Saturn? We get it they lost. I figured it is common knowledge by now why it failed.

>> No.4453826

playstation fans don't like other 5th gen systems getting any love. /vr/ also has times with lots of anti-N64 shitposting.
Also I assume the sort of "cult status" the Saturn has, and how it and its games may be more expensive than the others is what triggers some people.
We have also people like the bernieposter, who is probably behind some of these anti-Saturn threads.

>> No.4453831

Goddamn man the childishness of this site is really starting to piss me off so much in the past months. I think I'm probably getting too old for this place and need to just 86 myself off this site for good or just only browse for a tiny bit and stay a lurker.

>> No.4453834

The d-pad is certainly not shit.

you want shit, x360 is shit.

>> No.4453843

You've never held one you stupid shit. Its the best retro controller there is. Only Genesis controller comes behind it. Sega knew how to design great controllers. Dreamcast one sucked but the overall layout of it was good and Microsoft and Nintendo eventually copied its layout. The buttons and dpad just sucked for that Dreamcast controller is all. Its too bad that Saturn controller can't be used for all consoles and PC for retro games. It really was the perfect controller.

>> No.4453845

>They were given total and utter specs of the hardware, and they knew exactly what to do and how to do it, something third party studios had to guess and lose time figuring out,

Problem is that they have to figure shit out in the first place. With developer kits often being handed out while the console is still in pre-production, third parties aren't at a terrible disadvantage, unless they are not allowed to have low-level access to the hardware to begin with (which was the case with the N64).

For the Saturn, the reason why Sega "figured out" more of the hardware was because they were the only ones who actually released major big-budget EXCLUSIVE titles late in its life. Transparency was for example detailed in dev docs by 1996 and so was the DSP, full with example code. But most companies just didn't give a fuck, they wanted to port their multiplatform titles quickly as possible, or they built games which didn't push the hardware or used existing engines.

>They are made from the console manufactors so you expect them to be good and try to experiment new stuff that sets apart their console from competitors

Not necessarily - they have to make development libraries too, which are suitable for other devs. They can't push the system 100% this way, because for that you'd often need to base your gameplay around some hardware feature. Mode 7 being one example, both on the SNES and on the Saturn (Panzer Dragoon started out as the dragon floating above a mode 7 field with nothing else on screen, they later had to get around adding 3d objects).

Also, it is not uncommon for third parties to push the hardware more. Treasure and Travellers Tales on Saturn, Rare on the N64, Naughty Dog on the PSX, just from the top of my head, did games that looked better than anything else including first party titles. Naughty Dog was accused of using secret Sony devkits that utilized the hardware better, when the truth was the opposite.

>> No.4453847

One mode uses normal dithering, the other uses alternating dither patterns, but I don't remember which is which. I'm gonna guess that RGB used the alternating dither because that's the mode where you could see the pattern better.

It was only used on the lifebar and the winning screen (incidentally both could've used native transparency easily but that wouldn't look pixel perfect to the arcade...).

>> No.4453850

>I figured it is common knowledge by now why it failed.

It can never be common knowledge since the reason is literally >>4453202

>> No.4453857

>that's it, really

Those only mattered in America, really, and the main reason it sold like shit there had nothing to do with either of those reasons. Stores simply refused to carry the console. Partially because they were sick of Sega introducing new hardware every half year, partially because they thought Sega shafted them at the surprise launch by prioritizing other stores (when they just didn't have enough units to launch in every store).

That, and that alone destroyed the Saturn in America. Nothing could've saved it after that. Even if the PSX didn't exist, the Saturn still would've done like shit since you couldn't buy one anywhere.

>(otherwise, the PS2 wouldn't have survived its competition, the Genesis wouldn't have survived the SNES, etc)

PS2 and Genesis both had monstrous advantages in that they could do draw a lot of shit on screen, as much as the competition (maybe even more), just not in the same quality.

Saturn was the opposite. It had enough computational power but the video chip was incredibly poor.

>> No.4453882

Well that is a pretty interesting conspiracy theory right there. I also read the chain of replies. Many of those guys were right. I wish Sega didn't have to go though. We would be better off if Microsoft never got into gaming and instead the three were Sega vs Nintendo vs Sony.

>> No.4453894 [DELETED] 

So it was the Japs all along. Not the Jews. Does /pol/ know about this yet?

>> No.4453907

Do you really think memetic warfare is the domain of only one side? Do you think the Japanese would do this entirely unopposed?
And do you think there wouldn't be plenty of Westerners who wouldn't help out?

It's only "Japan vs the West" because we're talking about animu and video games. It's probably more like "Philosophers vs Imperialists" (imperialists in the ideological sense, not the vague colloquial sense).

>> No.4453917


>> No.4453918

Japs are LE HONORARY ARYANS, so they'll ignore it.

>> No.4453931


>> No.4453960

>the PS2 wouldn't have survived its competition, the Genesis wouldn't have survived
Both consoles were also released around two years before their competition (rather than the small differences in time between PS1 and Saturn) and their hardware still had advantages over their newer rivals. PS2 was faster than GameCube and Genesis was faster than SNES in terms of pixel throughput, it’s just that they drew less sophisticated pixels.

Saturn was less powerful than PS1 in every way except where the 2D tile mapper chip VDP2 could be properly exploited. Hell, the Saturn doesn’t even draw sprites as fast as the PS1 thanks to garbage VDP1 and slower memory.

Saturn was flawed hardware, and Sega’s engineers were just out of their depth at designing a 3D capable 5th gen console. Simple as that. Both Sony and Nintendo were wise enough to outsource at least some of the chip design.

>> No.4453976

It's just an easy new shitposting topic. We cycle through them every few months.

>> No.4453991

Sonyfags hate Segafags because you can discuss the DC here but not PS2. They can't get their way so they attack random people and shit the place up. Frankly everyone in this thread should get fucking permabanned.

>> No.4454052

Or maybe they were perfectly equivalent and it was some kind of parallel vs single core tournament.

When people say they think programming on this stuff was hard I kinda suspect they baby programmers.


>> No.4454054

You sound really angry about people having a different opinion than you, perhaps you have autism, Butthurt N64fag trying to pass off as a Sonyfag?

>> No.4454056
File: 118 KB, 678x1021, Capture.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>> No.4454070
File: 194 KB, 1024x689, 8IPwnebh.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

If the difference between first and third party is basically whether or not they work directly with the hardware engineering department

and if sega were taking a dive

then isn't that the way you'd do it if you wanted the minimum number of innocent developers to burn themselves?

>> No.4454074

The Japanese Saturn was great. But the western Saturn sucked because of lack of games.

>> No.4454114 [DELETED] 
File: 102 KB, 343x500, bernie stolar.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

It was shit regardless of region. Your gay weeb games wouldn't have saved it.

>> No.4454136

How could the Saturn have been saved?

>> No.4454150
File: 47 KB, 640x480, 1500462591636.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Ah, I knew this was a bait thread from the get go, but now you lads are just embarassing yourselves

>> No.4454152


console sales at the time were driven by parents for their kids and saturn cost a lot when regular ass parents were just getting used to the fact they had to rebuy this toy and all its expensive ass accessories for their kids every 5 years and they felt like they were getting buttfucked.

then from the kids perspective by the time saturn dropped enough to get it for x-mas you'd rather get playstation or n64.

it also had literally 0 games.

>> No.4454153

Sanic 4 on launch.

>> No.4454157
File: 2.71 MB, 350x300, nonononono.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

It might increased the framerate. On the first generation of 3d consoles you can't expect too much. The spotlight fills alot of pixels. THe more pixels transparency has to be drawn the more it slows the game down.

And before you try to tell me snes and genesis had more transparency. The resolution of the saturn is much higher as the res of snes and genesis.

>> No.4454161

3D Sonic would have been awful for Saturn though. Not enough power for such a game.

>> No.4454181

>Or maybe they were perfectly equivalent and it was some kind of parallel vs single core tournament.
They were not. The secret parallel power myth thing on Saturn just obscures its weakness. Ultimately virtually all of the graphics on Saturn except tile map backgrounds have to be drawn by VDP1, which is a single chip, and it is a piece of shit compared to PS1’s GPU. The choke point is right there.

>> No.4454189
File: 76 KB, 1280x720, Seha01-01.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>This thread

You're all bullies.

>> No.4454235

Of course it's a choke point if you're designing games the same way as you would on another platform, or porting them from another platform, or intend to port them to another platform at some point.

But a truly well-crafted hentai mahjonggs on this thing could be perfectly p-p-p-packed with power.

(But I'm legit mostly inclined to think they did it this way to scare people off because Sega was deliberately throwing the towel to make way for Sony. I believe it)

>> No.4454249

>if you're designing games the same way as you would on another platform
There literally is no other way. Either VDP1 draws the graphics or the CPU does it, and believe me, as bad as VDP1 is you don’t want the CPU taking over its job.

>> No.4454260

This thread is just stupid. I love both my PS1 and (Japanese) Saturn equally. If I'm going to play 2D fighters, arcade conversions, or superior ports of Mega Man 8 & X4 then I'll play my Saturn. Thats what I have it for and its perfect for that.

>> No.4454261

Which is plausible because I can totally believe that they were taking an intentional dive and making unusable hardware is a good way to do it.

But I don't believe you just because you say it. You're acting like VDP2 doesn't exist now, when my whole point was creative use of the two (three) may actually have been feasible except for the exceptions I mentioned, which are near-total.

>> No.4454628

Sega was doomed to always playing catch up. Why in the fuck they designed a 2d system when their arcade games were at the forefront of 3d at the time nobody will ever know.

>> No.4454637

>he still thinks Sega tried to make Saturn primarily a 2D system and not just fucked up the attempt to make a 3D system

>> No.4454643

>Sega’s engineers were just out of their depth at designing a 3D capable 5th gen console

Saturn was 3d capable, just not as much as the PSX since that was never what it was meant to be. They were doing a consolized System 32 that can out do everything the SNES (the most popular home console at the time).

>> No.4454648

A 2.5D Sanic game in 1995 would've been heralded as the greatest videogame of the '90s. Mario 64 hadn't come out and killed the platforming genre with collectathon bullshit yet, after all.

>> No.4454650

>and believe me, as bad as VDP1 is you don’t want the CPU taking over its job.

Travellers Tales managed to draw an enviromental mapped metal sonic entirely in software, and had it running in-game before scrapping the idea.

>> No.4454652
File: 102 KB, 343x500, bernie stolar.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Good. The Saturn deserves it for being such a fucking disaster of a console.

>> No.4454670

as other anons have said, the d-pad is not good, but I think the dualshock is the most comforable/ergonomic controller I've used.

>> No.4454672

>and had it running in-game before scrapping the idea.
Probably because running it in-game harmed the framerate too severely.

>> No.4454705

>nobody who likes the thing I like is a tool! If somebody obnoxious says they like the thing I like they m-must be a false f-flagger..
When did /vr/ become /sp/?

>> No.4454721

>radiant silvergun
>saturn exclusive

>> No.4454765

Remember, /vr/ is a homefag board

>> No.4454801

>this dude sucks so much ass to mouth cock that he swallows enough lube that his tears are comprised of lube and he just assumes that that is the case for everyone else
roflmao at yr life my dude

>> No.4454805

It was exclusive in retro times.

Also Treasure planned a port and showed the prototype to Sony but they shot it down because it looked and ran terribly and would've just been more fuel for Sega to use against Sony to prove that Saturn has the actual superior hardware (for 2D games, at least).

>> No.4454834

>hey, a thread about the Saturns technical limitations. this could be interesting!
>100 replies of geocitites 1998 tier conspiracy theorizing
I swear to fuck, it was like the internet got too hard for the boomers to use for about a decade and other than the FB/Mobile influx that was still a pretty nice time. FUCKING DIE ALREADY BOOMERS

>> No.4454884
File: 69 KB, 328x407, 1509762147183.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>ay le thread of /v/

>> No.4454982
File: 40 KB, 512x512, bigger mario.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Actually it is a premium-grade triple-S rank conspiracy from 2018

>> No.4454992
File: 36 KB, 600x610, segatasanshiro.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]


>> No.4455001

Uhhh.... what

>> No.4455264
File: 2.93 MB, 720x540, on_svideo.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]


>> No.4455268
File: 2.85 MB, 720x540, on_composite.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

the flickering didn't transfer

>> No.4455289

>complains about conspiracies
>goes on to rant conspiracy theories
Don't worry, boomers will eventually die. You will die eventually, too. Maybe sooner than later, who knows?

>> No.4455296

You're one of the worst /vr/ users man.
You alone make this board a ton worse.
I mean, I bet it's your plan, but eh.

>> No.4455373

God Tier:

High Tier:

Mid Tier:

Low Tier:

Shovelware Tier:
PlayStation X

>> No.4455442

hopefully we'll all die really soon

>> No.4455447

if i buy a saturn will i become happy

>> No.4455449

I played Yakuza 1 for PS2 the other day.

Had to stop 30 minutes later. How did this trash game got a million sequels and spinoffs?

>> No.4455452

DS2 is better, you're otherwise 100% correct.

>> No.4455462

yes you will be happy but you will also be poor because the good saturn games are almost as expensive as nintendo shit and you wont be able to find saturn games at garage sales.

>> No.4455471

>*seethes katana*
Did you mean "sheathes" you stupid fuck?

>> No.4455476

>And before you try to tell me snes and genesis had more transparency
>thinks SNES and Genesis were capable of real transparency

>> No.4455478

If his kung fu were strong we wouldn't have had that conversation in the first place.

so you're saying i should get money and then i'll be happy

>> No.4455494

Well it didn't really harm the framerate at all in the prototype version found by the guy who made the game.

>> No.4455509

The SNES was capable of making transparent backgrounds and foregrounds, just nothing on a per-sprite basis. Kind of the same as the Saturn when drawing palette sprites.

Genesis had shadow and highlight modes, plus a command where you could draw a sprite in a way so it didn't draw any graphics, but set the shadow/highlight bit instead. This effectively allowed transparency, although you were limited to silhouettes of sprites in two colours only.
It sounds silly when written down like that, but play Vectorman or Ex-Ranza a bit and you'll see just how much it can add to the gameplay (you can cast spotlights onto the screen, or cover an area with shadows, etc).

>> No.4455513

None of that is real transparency.

>> No.4455525

You mean alpha blending, right? Those things anon is describing are all kinds of transparency too though. Palette- and mask-based stuff are legit. Alternating dithering is also "real" as far as I'm concerned even though it's a persistence or even phosphor effect. If it's indistinguishable to the player from transparency then it's transparency even if the effect isn't as versatile.
It's also not a linear progression of capability either because a lot of those effects are actually kinda annoying to do with modern graphics even though blending is trivial.

I get what you're saying but it's been bugging me that people are saying stuff like "real transparency" in this thread without being more specific.

>> No.4455656

appallingly dumb shit about VDP1: drawing mesh pattern sprites isn't faster than drawing normally, even though it's quite literally filling half the pixels
the chip is a slapped together mess and overdraws all the time

the fact that pixel overdraw causes artifacting with the Saturn's transparent blend mode when drawing 4 point quads (ninpen manmaru's shadow is a very visible example, since it uses actual shadow mode instead of 50% blend) is a clear testament to the fact that they didn't really think things through at all

>> No.4455664

This same bait thread gets posted every month and you faggots never fail to take it to bumplock. Topkek.

>> No.4455665

is there anything they did right?

because it's not implausible to me that they deliberately designed it to suck

>> No.4455668

Yeah, you don't need an alpha channel for transparency to be a thing, despite what some people imply. All the alpha channel achieves is that blending can vary per-pixel instead of a fixed percentage (e.g. 50/50).

At best it just means the transparency is more visually pleasing and natural than 'fixed' blending methods. A well chosen texture to apply transparency to can almost look as good. For that reason, even though N64 has real alpha channel support and PS1 doesn't, if developers are very careful on PS1 they can still produce transparencies that look as good.

>> No.4455674

a fixed or mask-based percentage is just a fixed alpha--it doesn't really have anything to do with whether you have an alpha channel in your graphics data, although that's a good place to keep per-pixel alpha if you want

>> No.4455675

They had no experience in making 3D hardware from scratch, so they fell into the common pitfalls.

It's like all of those horrible 3D accelerators made for PC in the mid to late 90s, like the Alliance AT3D and Cirrus Logic Laguna3D. The engineers of those chips simply hadn't worked out how to iron the kinks. Saturn is basically being powered by a similar, wholly flawed and incompetently developed 3D chip, albeit one that doesn't produce completely glitchy visuals.

Meanwhile PS1 and N64 had GPUs that were PC-beating until 3dfx came along.

>> No.4455679

I mean, you could specify that this particular shade of green that a monster's fins use is to be blended by 30%


literally a million ways that don't use the word 'alpha' anywhere

>> No.4455681

Well yeah, without the alpha channel the alpha blending % comes from whatever mode was hardcoded into the GPU itself. All the alpha channel achieves is that the blending % can be different across every pixel.

>> No.4455686

what is a gpu

why would you hardcode a blend mode

oh wait i guess you would, that's what alpha blending is. but it's not the only way to blit pixels to a graphics buffer

>> No.4455695
File: 814 KB, 841x755, 1512724224697.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

dang maybe saturn gave his own life so that consoles would not become pcs for at least... how long?

>> No.4455696

>tfw the guys that made N64's hardware almost worked for Sega to design their console

>> No.4455698

Saturn still did better than those early home-grade 3D accelerators for like a year.
really, for all its flaws, its biggest issue is that the PS1 was so much better
no one else had home market 3D hardware of ANY quality at the time

>why would you hardcode a blend mode
because for ages, most graphics chips weren't shader programmable and did things with a fixed pipeline?
so you'd have specific modes and operations it could do

>> No.4455701

straight-up terrorism against microsoft while sony unsheathe he catana

>> No.4455726

>because for ages, most graphics chips weren't shader programmable and did things with a fixed pipeline?
>so you'd have specific modes and operations it could do
Yeah it was rhetorical. I think we agree, I'm just saying the ways of doing transparency are more extensive and "palette-based" methods can actually do calculations between render channels

>> No.4455734

hardcoded blend modes lets you do transparency with small pixel depths

like 16-bit, where you've got 5-bits each of R,G,B and then just a 1-bit mask.

then the hardcoded blend mode can just do a 50% blend between two 16-bit pixels or even just add their values together (additive blending), etc.

no need for alpha channel, the same mode is used across an entire polygon

>> No.4455752
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>> No.4455786
File: 19 KB, 251x251, 1509565737766.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

drawing a mesh pattern is of course faster even than normal drawing. I am a game dev, and what you say is wrong on so many levels.

Here 2 reasons why the mesh drawing of the spot light is faster than normal drawing and 1 reason why it is much faster than transparency:
1 only every second pixel gets filled, makes it already twice as fast
2 the "mesh" has only 1 color, not changing the color is faster than drawing anything else
3 transparency isn't an overlay, to draw transparency the code has to get the color of each individual pixel of the shape, then calculate the interpolation of the target pixel with the overlay pixel and then redraw the pixel. This is always slow, no matter what engine or system, like trash like html5

>> No.4455804

Saturn’s hardware works very differently than modern GPUs.

I wouldn’t be surprised if VDP1 would attempt a “dividing by 1” blend operation on every second pixel in the mesh pattern, or something stupid like that.

>> No.4455805

golf clap

>> No.4455861

>comparing PS1 and Saturn versions of the game
>not playing the superior PC version

Here is your problem

>> No.4455865

>virtua cop
>panzer dragoon
>countless shmups

Why do people hate this console again?

>> No.4455883

Well, that is the task my R&D team had to unwrap the last 20 years, and that is the result they came up with: alot of people started their gaming career with the psx the most non gamer console ever, aside from some unknown consoles. They got a weird twisted view of gaming, and like to fight on the forefront of girl gaming and and more gays in gaming. They naturally hate good games as it skews their world of psx scam gaming.
My team of researchers is proud of their work and are working already on the next case... thanks alot guys!

>> No.4455885

>Japan have us YMO, which greatly influenced techno

Nope. Kraftwerk was first for that. And it's funny how the first actual "techno" song (really Detroit Techno) sounds nothing like YMO or Kraftwerk.


>> No.4455894

Take that shit to /v/ and leave it there.

>> No.4455901
File: 98 KB, 802x1095, 1413160780800.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

*earth shakes as Saturn SDK manual is dropped onto desk*
>Hey Dave, you'll handle the Saturn port right? HAHAHAHAHAHAH

>> No.4455904

Both Kraftwerk and YMO influenced the rest of electronic music.
Look it up I'm not making it up, many early techno and hip hop producers cited YMO as a major influence.
At any rate, nothing like YMO coming from Korea.

>> No.4455925

My guess is because the ost is so god tier and the heat actions were cool to look at. At least thats how I got through it. Then I played 2 and was in love with every game since.

>> No.4455954

it wasn't a fuck up. it was a very good console for the time, albeit over engineered to the maximum. are you sure you know what you're talking about?

>> No.4455958

> first actual techno song.. really detroit techno

Charanjit Singh beat them to it. detroit bootlegged off of an indian and took credit for it.

check it.. 1982! a few years before yanks started ripping him off:

> be you
> knowing nothing about electronic music

>> No.4455959

Actually even the ancient greeks had techno.

>> No.4455961

> ancient greeks
> techno
poor usa. can't come up with anything original without ripping it off of others.

>> No.4455963

too small

>> No.4455969

t. Xbox Hueg user

>> No.4456287

The SNES actually has half transparency. It also has add with clamp and sub with clamp.
I can't remember what the limitations of using it were though. No idea if they could have used that for the water instead of the mesh for the water.

>> No.4456450

Curiously the N64's alpha blender can't clamp, which means using additive or subtractive blending on that console can be ridiculously risky.

Wonder why the GPU designers didn't include something so simple. Guess they were too drunk on the fact that the GPU could per-pixel alpha blend I guess.

>> No.4456580

Fuck off back to /int/.

>> No.4456607

>Saturn is basically being powered by a similar, wholly flawed and incompetently developed 3D chip, albeit one that doesn't produce completely glitchy visuals.

No, it's being powered by a powerful sprite pusher that descended from late 80s/early 90s super scaler arcade games. The big issue is that
- it was meant to be used in arcade machines where bandwidth isn't a problem since you can double up everything with no regards to cost. This is not the case here.
- they tried too hard to use it for polygons. It was meant to be SNES +1, not a Model 2.

>> No.4456628

VDP1 is by no means similar to SNES or Super Scaler. It's designed for a fucking framebuffer.

It only resembles older 2D chips because the 'geniuses' at Sega literally didn't know how to design anything else when they started making this 3D chipset.

>> No.4456653


And people defend it for its sprite games.

All it has in its favor is its superior RAM, but all it ever came from it was arcade perfect ports (that surely were amazing at the moment, but now you can play those fighting games pretty much everywhere, from official collections on PS2 to emulation).

>> No.4456667

And superior second video chip that was like 5 layers of mode 7 on steroids.

>> No.4456689

Lead programmer of Lobotomy Software said VDP2 was overly specialized and Sega was stupid to have included it.

>> No.4456697

Probably. They didn't expect 2D to just die out and 3D taking over completely.

>> No.4456719
File: 94 KB, 680x754, bait.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>godlike d-pad

>> No.4456734

Funny thing is that Sega themselves started the increasing interest in 3D by making Daytona USA, which was probably the greatest advertisement for making 3D video games ever.

Kind of like how Kodek invented the digital camera.

>> No.4457345

>all that clustered RAM

No wonder SOTN turned out like it did.

>> No.4457734

reading the Saturn VDP1 manual was one of the worst experiences of my life, and reading the VDP2 manual was a close second
maybe if I could read nip and didn't deal with that awful english translation it'd be better, but I doubt it

oh fuck, Altern-8's E Vapor 8 sampled this
absolutely massive sound

>Here 2 reasons why the mesh drawing of the spot light is faster than normal drawing
It's not, and you have absolutely no idea how VDP1 works. Obviously, mesh mode is faster than transparency by quite a bit (not quite the 6x figure in the VDP1 manual), but mesh drawing is not faster than normal drawing on VDP1. It's really that bad.
Like, it should be faster at drawing with 50% mesh mode enabled, since it should just plotting every other pixel to the framebuffer... but it still ends up taking about as much time.

in addition, the Saturn, when doing blend or shadow mode (which is either a 50% blend between target and source pixel or a darkening), due to the fact that it overwrites newly drawn pixels when drawing a transformed polygon, has weird artifacting as it blends pixels that were already blended, a fact which is mentioned in the manual (and actually happens -- very few games bother with VDP1 transparency not just because it's slow, not just because it doesn't blend at all against VDP2 anything because nothing drawn by VDP2 gets on the framebuffer, but also because it looks like ass on 4-point transformed polygons, which are the majority in a 3D game; and IIRC it happens on 2-point downscaled ones too, but I'm too lazy to go waste a blank CD and do a test case, really wish I had some dev cart setup because fuck trying to debug shit that only happens on this god damn piece of shit chip in an emulator so I don't blow through a stack of CDs burning a sub-2MB file repeatedly)

>> No.4457764

Post the good one and not the one with those cancerous sticks fucking up the ergonomics.

>> No.4457785

>Hardware side
What was supposed to be a 2D powerhouse was kludged into a 3D machine at the last minute by people who had no idea where things were going.
>Software side
The aforementioned rushed hardware meant that no matter how much raw power it had nobody could properly utilize it compared to its simpler competition.
>Sales side
The American and Japanese branches of Sega weren't getting along very well, and when the Saturn took off in Japan thanks to the massive popularity of Virtua Fighter in the country SoJ forced SoA to push the release schedule forward with no time to prepare, enraging both developers and retailers alike to the point where some stores (Walmart in particular) refused to stock it out of spite. Not helping matters SoA's boss didn't want to license any game that wasn't impressive (read: 3D) enough, cutting out many of the best titles in Japan.
Sony took what was left of their failed partnership with Nintendo to make something that would make developers happy (ensuring a steady supply of titles) while using their strong brand name and reputation for good electronics to assuage the fears consumers may have regarding what might have looked like another doomed expensive CD system made by some random megacorp.

>> No.4457791

>VDP1 is by no means similar to SNES or Super Scaler. It's designed for a fucking framebuffer.

Super Scaler eventually evolved to System 32, which was framebuffer (but had twice the fill rate). System 24 was already framebuffer based too iirc. The entire Saturn is like a System 32 put into console form, like how the Genesis was a consolized System 16. Hell even the main cpu for the Saturn was meant to be a NEC V60 like System 32, they changed it to Hitachi SH2 once Sony released the PSX specs.

And the Saturn on its own has way too many parallels to the SNES. Extremely similar transparency modes, buttload of expansion options (most which went unused), PCM sound, a DSP to accelerate 3d games like Starfox or Virtua Fighter, and optionally expandable with a CD. This was all there in 1993 leaked specs. They were trying to ape on the SNES CD (a legit threat when design work would've started).

>> No.4457805

Sony themselves decided on a strong 3d hardware because they were inspired by Virtua Fighter and wanted the console to be able to do that.

You have to note though, that the Model 1-2-3 was basically tech they bought from outside, and they started it as an experiment to learn 3d games. Virtua Racing was a complete surprise hit.

>not quite the 6x figure in the VDP1 manual

I think that 6x line in the manual is bullshit. Or it is an absolute worst case scenario, like comparing untextured fills to texture + shading + blending. The latter would make more sense.

>and IIRC it happens on 2-point downscaled ones too

2-point scaled polys are straight squares and do not exhibit this problem because they are written line by line. The VDP1 doesn't fill unnecessary extra lines. It's just that, if a given line of the sprite is diagonal due to a 4-point transform, it can overlap with already written pixels, hence the bug.

Scorcher and Sonic R do vdp1 transparency and they both use 2-point scaled sprites with no artifacts.
Actually this is not entirely true. In Scorcher if a transparent sprite is off-screen, it's left-most pixels (or right-most, depending on which side is off screen) will be written double, for some reason. I don't know why that happens...

I've talked with other devs who mentioned that they would've used VDP1 transparency regardless of the bug, cause it would be barely visible on TVs anyway (remember, most people used RF or composite at the time). But the speed drop was prohibitive.

also dude get a Rhea. You still have to write full isos for your test code, but it's infinitely better than burning discs for everything.

>> No.4457907

what the fuck are you going on about you goddamn sperg? are you really that fucking delusional and dense? i want to read more of your dumbass theories because they are hilarious

>> No.4458159

SotN has such an amazing aesthetic it's a real shame the franchise went to handhelds after that. They never really matched that visual quality ever again.

>> No.4458172

Going by similarity, the PS1 is arguably more similar to the SNES.

There’s literally nothing in the SNES similar to VDP1, even when factoring SuperFX. Background modes on the SNES (e.g. Mode 7) are not independent of the PPU like they are on Saturn. Turning on Mode 7 means other capabilities get affected, while on Saturn they are seperate independent chips.

>> No.4458232

maybe it's all propaganda

>> No.4458238

Had way more good game than the n64

>> No.4458252

>Going by similarity, the PS1 is arguably more similar to the SNES.

Only the controller and the BRR sound compression is similar in it, and it can do 256x240 resolution.

Saturn is more similar.

>There’s literally nothing in the SNES similar to VDP1

No, but there's plenty in the VDP2 and in other parts of the system.

>Background modes on the SNES (e.g. Mode 7) are not independent of the PPU like they are on Saturn.

Saturn has plenty of similar limitations on the VDP2. Using two mode 7 layers for example disables every other background.

>> No.4458274

Maybe the Saturn was intended to test our limits.

Should the future belong to mere apes?

>> No.4458927

Contemporary anime is dogshit anyway thanks to moefags with deep pockets and CGI corner cutting. There's nothing of value left for them to destroy. Look at the new Berserk show. Let anime burn, I welcome it.

>> No.4460478

Otakus have ironically killed that medium

>> No.4460554

So happy its so easy to emulate everything now.

Nothing is more comfy than Saturn and PS1 gaming on a snowy lonely weekend.

>> No.4461957

Is an i5-3570k good for mednafen? It says it recommends a haswell cpu at minimum. . . .

>> No.4461986
File: 1.38 MB, 480x320, huehehehehe.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

there was a time when anime wasnt shit

>> No.4462121

>Basically all East Asian politics since the 1860s is a fucking smokeshow for the West's benefit.
Amazing post.

>> No.4462137

Those style of games were pretty much going out of style. People wanted more story focused games with meaning. Keep in mind though everything that came after PS1 took the concept of story and cinematics in gaming and put it on steroids. Especially modern gaming. A large reason why many PS1 games had multiple discs was thanks to the cutscenes and dialogue.

However people were still willing to like games like that. It wasn't really until the console generation after that much of what modern gaming is like today was taking form. I think what hurt Saturn more was it was difficult for developers to get the most out of it. It should have either been a dedicated 3D machine or a dedicated 2D machine. Sega also shouldn't have released so early nor should they have released the CD and 32x. Finally, Sega management needed to stop being such faggots. If Saturn ended up being a true 2D powerhouse that sold well that gen of console gaming would probably be unmatched in terms of diversity. I know I would have loved it back then if it was like that.

>> No.4462367

Nah, people didn't want more meaningful stories, if they had wanted that you always had books. Storage size increase to fit story fluff and developers realizing games could sell to more people by diluting them with other kinds of mediums (skinner boxes, in this case story rewards) and them removing the challenge since you got them hooked with that.

>> No.4462694

>also dude get a Rhea. You still have to write full isos for your test code
I really, really want to.

>Scorcher and Sonic R do vdp1 transparency and they both use 2-point scaled sprites with no artifacts.
oh shit, you're right

>> No.4463045

>there was a time when anime wasnt shit
We need an /ar/.

>> No.4463098

Whenever I enter /a/ I feel I need to apply some nastily strong eyedrops. That sea of moecrap. I've tried to post some stuff a few times but it just gets ignored and buried.

Maybe more than /ar/ at some point you'll need a board for moe and another one for non-moe stuff. The fanbase is just too huge.

>> No.4463802
File: 209 KB, 800x795, cherry picked.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Why was the ps1 such a fuckup lads?

>> No.4463819

>people didn't want more meaningful stories

So FFVII and MGS1 got popular because...

>> No.4463831

its always really easy to tell when someone doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about yammers on about it anyway. moe's a fad from 10 years ago, and it still upsets you.

>> No.4463881

what about Nintendoggers

>> No.4463912
File: 377 KB, 2000x1149, SFC30_Pro_face.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>It's a SNES pad with handles and analogue sticks.

>> No.4464114


>> No.4464354

Yes, marketing for a console where the greater size of its users played on burned discs. Or maybe because people just wanted an experience that made them feel involved, and think like their involvement mattered in the grand scheme of things of the imaginative setting they were transported to. This wasn't exclusive to disc based consoles.

>> No.4464772


Square spent an unprecedented amount of money on this game

>> No.4464778

where were you during the other 1000 "where did saturn go wrong" threads?

>> No.4465008

don't talk about metal gear unless you want your threads shut down

>> No.4465316

You are in some serious denial about the fact people wanted story games. Sure Square spent a ton marketing that game. Nobody ever argues that fact. To say the people over the years haven't been increasingly wanting story based games though is laughable because that is exactly where this industry went. Just look at any E3 in these past years. The way they reveal games even is interesting. Often you will see a cinematic trailer before you see a gameplay one. Other times when they finally do get to gameplay how is it that they show it to you? Very slow and gradual. They often will want to make the pc look around, this is the developers/publishers saying to the audience look at our shiny pretty graphics guys. Then you will also see what else? Some story shit or characters communicating with each other. This is to try to get their audience to care about the story they are building and to want to know more of it.

You honestly have been living under a fucking rock if you think these games haven't been getting increasingly popular over the past two decades at least. These E3's over the years are absolutely disgusting with this shit. I'm not saying that the developers never want to show gameplay. Of course they do. But story and character focus is such a huge part of how they show their games going on for many years now.

Back in 1990 do you actually think they would have went out of their way like this to tell people about stories? Not even in 1995 they would have. It was increasing by then but it wasn't until PS1 games like FFVII and MGS where people started to desire story games like that. Even to the point where if the story isn't good to people they don't want to play it regardless of how good gameplay is or isn't. The Itigaki Ninja Gaiden games for example have excellent gameplay imo but I wouldn't say they have stories that are memorable or even worth a shit. Especially so with the second game.

>> No.4465361

You don't need to tell me how the industry went to shit thanks to storyfagging, I already now way too well. Never argued against story software (don't want to call them games) being popular.

My point is that they don't really demand MEANINGFUL stories, if they really did they'd get into literature. They just can't get bothered to read and prefer looking at shiny graphics.

>> No.4465780

>My point is that they don't really demand MEANINGFUL stories, if they really did they'd get into literature. They just can't get bothered to read and prefer looking at shiny graphics.

Hence why they want stories in their vidya. Seriously you aren't making a whole lot of sense here. Maybe choose your words better because you pretty much contradicted your own self here. People in 2017 don't like to read. It is probably the reason tldr became a thing.

>> No.4465790

It's fucking 2017. It doesn't need to be a competition anymore. Yeah the Playstation was better, but that doesn't negate the fact that the Saturn is a decent enough console with a library of games worth playing. You don't need to choose between them anymore other than multiplats.

>> No.4465802

>However people were still willing to like games like that.

Well of course they did. They bought the Sega CD, didn't they? Newsflash: the only thing setting apart those FMV trash from popular PS1 titles is the quality of the video.

>> No.4465851

Dude, I am refuting a guy that's saying gamers demanded MEANINGFUL stories and here I'm explaining why they don't want MEANINGFUL stories, just stories in video "games".

>> No.4466013

>they don't really demand MEANINGFUL stories

You're right but I think that's because they've rarely to never had them. You can't know what you're missing when you've never experienced it.

It's not actually really a bad thing because narrative-first design is incredibly demanding while gameplay-first allowes you to be agile and adaptive in a way that has massively benefited those elements which make games distinct from other forms of media. That's given us a rapid evolution of form that has yielded all the tools, tech and conventions that narrative-first games can now take advantage of.
And when they do happen it's a pleasant novelty, and that too is a good thing because those rare games are worth appreciating.

I think since we seem to be at the beginning of a dark age of cloned garbage in which every gameplay innovation leads to a sea of identical bullshit to the point that there's now basically zero thrill in trying a new title, we'll probably see more swing towards narrative experiences (the last few years of walking sim garbage being clumsy first steps in that direction).

>Back in 1990 do you actually think they would have went out of their way like this to tell people about stories? Not even in 1995 they would have.
You seem to be completely forgetting about Interactive Fiction, which has always been huge, and directly lead to a lot of graphical genres. We wouldn't have Adventure on the 2600 without Cave Adventure/whatever. A lot of shit happened in text decades before we had the tech to do it in action form.


>> No.4466046

saturn pad is the best pad ever made, that's why so many shmup players, arcade players etc use it but of course you're to low level to even know anything, probs an rpg player.

>> No.4466425

We agree with each other then, good to know.

I want to buy one of these with an adaptor just for emulation. Best 2D controller ever, only rivaled by arcade sticks.

>> No.4466649

Holly shit can you talk more about this, please ?

>> No.4467425
File: 56 KB, 750x600, p7zu8lims6ez.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Sure, but I think we covered the basics ITT already. It's been leaking into a giant modern cross-media "conspiracy" in the last few years that you probably already know about if you follow modern gaming, but I could probably connect some dots.
What would you like to know?