/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.4383723]

If you save the game multiple times per level in Doom... you're cheating.

You should only save at the START of a level, so that you can come back to the game later, if you have to go do other things. Otherwise, you should beat each level in one sitting.

Proof that it's cheating is the fact that you lose your guns if you die, and each level of Doom has guns in the beginning for you to pick up. Why would they make you lose your guns if they intended for you to be able to save a bunch of times and load back up where you were?

You're support to say, "Okay, I died and lost my guns. I need to play this level better," not "Whatever. I will just load where I saved."

Saving multiple times per level on Doom makes you a damn CHEATER.

[Anonymous No.4383737]

i don't give a shit

[Anonymous No.4383739]

Okay, but I'm still gonna go it.

What now?

[Anonymous No.4383741]

>>4383723
>You should only save at the START of a level
No, that's wrong you fucking cheater
Would the devs have you lose your weapons when you die if they knew you were just gonna reload the start of the level? No, they would have you restart the level WITH the guns you had. Saving at the start of a level is cheating, and you should be ashamed of yourself for being a filthy cheater.
You should only save when you have to exit the game, and you should only use 1 save slot. That's the only situation where saving is acceptable.

[Anonymous No.4383742]

>>4383723
I don't think anyone cares if you cheat in Doom

[Anonymous No.4383746]

>>4383739

Then you:

A) Lowered your enjoyment of the game. Instead of finishing it and feeling rewarded you will shrug and be like, "Whatever."

B) Didn't truly beat the game. You saved multiple times like some emulation-using, save-state-abusing cheater.

Seriously why even play the game unless you want payoff in the end? All, "Ahhh I managed to beat that game using my skill. That was fun" What's even the point?

[Anonymous No.4383748]

[Anonymous No.4383754]

>>4383748

/thread

[Anonymous No.4383756]

I save scummed the first time
Then i realized my wrong ways and played it in UV + Start pistol

It was the same shit.

[Anonymous No.4383762]

I actually didn't realize that you could quicksave in Doom 1 and by the middle of Doom 2 I was too prideful to fall back on it. However I played on HMP mode and not UV that apparently 90% of players do. So I guess I'll do that when I revisit them.

[Anonymous No.4383769]

The game used to have a lives system which was removed. If you simply use features which are included by the developers, then it isn't cheating. Sure, you can up your challenge by not savescumming and starting over the level with pistol if you die, or even doing every level from a pistol start, but those are just different ways to play.

[Anonymous No.4383782]

>>4383741
>You should only save when you have to exit the game
you're not supposed to exit the game dumbass, why do you think the devs put in those messages taunting you? get a dedicated doom machine and leave it running, jesus fuck

[Anonymous No.4383793]

The developers intended you to save, otherwise they wouldn't have included the ability to save anywhere.

[Anonymous No.4383896]

>caring this much over how others play

I don't know if you're making a joke thread or actually autistic.
I want to think the former.

[Anonymous No.4383906]

When I gave Doom a whirl, I only saved under the following conditions:

1. Level start.

2. Key pickup.

3. Secret discovered.

Anything else was a restart or a load from last save affair. I play BUILD games the same way.

[Anonymous No.4384009]

>>4383723
Then why does the game allow you to save at any point?

[Anonymous No.4384015]

>>4383746
>whats fun for me must be fun for everyone

ive done both dawg. just playing through the game is more fun for me.

[Anonymous No.4384027]

>>4384009
design oversight

[Anonymous No.4384034]

>>4383746

>What's fun for me must be what's fun for everyone else

>>4383748
oh shit pretty sure that was my post

>>4384009
the devs didnt intend for you to use that feature though but if you're not playing this on a crt holy shit you might as well not play the game at all because the devs intended scan lines but dont ask me for a quote of them saying that lol

[Anonymous No.4384036]

>>4383756
>it's the same shit
Very strongly agree. It wasn't until I played through the IWADs pistol-starting each map that I fell in love with Doom. Pistol starting really helps you appreciate the level design and the careful positioning of health, weapons, and monsters. It also makes secret areas much more rewarding. I don't yell at people telling them how to play, but I do encourage people to at least give it a try. There's a lot of creativity in the combat setups you won't even notice if you start maps with 200/200 and tons of ammo.

[Anonymous No.4384038]

>>4384009
The feature was there for bugtesting during development but then they left it in by mistake.

[Anonymous No.4384040]

But op, what if I play it this way:
http://users.zoominternet.net/~tain/ManDoom/

[Anonymous No.4384042]

>>4384036
>Very strongly agree
Herp derp, I meant disagree.

[Anonymous No.4384093]

>>4383723
>Proof that it's cheating is the fact that you lose your guns if you die

Really? It never happens to me when I play it on gzdoom. Is it maybe because I have autosaves turned on?

[Anonymous No.4384173]

I don't lose guns when I die because I'm using Zdoom and mostly just playing user maps and there's no way in hell I'm not saving before opening every door in these bullshit levels.

[Anonymous No.4384253]

OP should play Sunlust on UV without saving manually.

[Anonymous No.4384260]

>>4384034
>oh shit pretty sure that was my post
start a reddit account and you'll know for sure next time

[Anonymous No.4384487]

If you're not supposed to save, why is there a save option ?

[Anonymous No.4384490]

>>4384093
That is exactly why. Standard DOOM is pistol starts if you die.

[Anonymous No.4384495]

>>4384487

Tide comes in, tide goes out. Can't explain it.

[Anonymous No.4384505]

>>4383748
this

[Anonymous No.4384517]

Man, /vr/ falls for everything.
Then they go boasting around how they are grown adults and how smart they are, yet they eat shit left and right.

[Anonymous No.4384561]

>>4383723
If you need to save for Doom or Doom 2 for UV you're certifiably retarded.

[Anonymous No.4384562]

>>4384173
Youre a pansy, you might as well just get a Leapfrog and play those games, it seems more befitting someone of your cuckery.

[Anonymous No.4384580]

>>4383741
I agree with this in theory, but not a lot of levels in the original Doom games and practically none in Plutonia and TNT are actually reasonably beatable from a pistol start. After you die once without saving, you have to have memorized all the weapon drops in a level and even then you'll get a super shotgun at best in a level when you are expected to fight like 12 revenants and 5 barons of hell. Unfortunately, Doom isn't really balanced for that sort of playstyle.

[Anonymous No.4385808]

Think of Doom like a shmup, you play it with the intention of 1ccing it eventually.

[Anonymous No.4385837]

>>4383723
I like cheating, it feels good and makes me happy, i don't feel the reward of beating a hard level if i don't cheat to beat it, am i messed up?

[Anonymous No.4385883]

>>4383723
if that was the case you wouldn't be able to save whenever you wanted, it was clearly a conscious design choice. you were supposed to be playing it at work, being able to save anywhere meant you could pick up where you left off when your boss left the room.

[Anonymous No.4385912]

>just got done playing a few maps with a gameplay mod that autosaves
>see this thread

[Red terminator !!yHpL5ds/PfD No.4386031]

If it's cheating, why do the devs allow it?

[Anonymous No.4386392]

>>4383746
A) What constitutes my enjoyment is none of your business.
B) 1v1 me, bitch cakes.

[Anonymous No.4386397]

>>4383723
>yfw even the devs recommended saving often cause you were going to get your ass handed to you
>yfw saving often and having multiple saves is a good habit to maintain anyway

[Anonymous No.4386470]

>>4384562
I wonder if you can play Doom on a Leapfrog?

[Anonymous No.4386868]

>>4383741
>>4383723
>>4383746


This entire thread is made by a fucking moron.

If it's 'cheating' WHY DO DEVELOPERS ALLOW YOU TO DO THAT?!
In most games where devs don't want you to save anytime, they simply USE CHECKPOINTS INSTEAD. God.

Are you seriously saying that tech geniuses at id who managed to create a 3D texture-mapped engine that runs on average home PC in 1993 with no hardware acceleration - somehow couldn't fucking figure out how to make a checkpoint system? In an age where most games used checkpoint systems?
Don't make me fucking laugh.

And if you're 'only supposed to save at the beginning' WHY DOOM HAS A QUICKSAVE OPTION?!

In fact, HERE'S PROOF THAT DEVS INTENDED YOU TO SAVE THE GAME, YOU IDIOTS.
And that being back to pistol-only was PUNISHMENT FOR NOT SAVING.

http://www.wolfensteingoodies.com/archives/olddoom/manuals/Ultimate_Doom_-_Manual_-_PC.pdf

God, bunch of fucking retards in this thread.

[Anonymous No.4386887]

>>4384490
>>4384093
I will tell you why GZDoom doesn't do the 'return-to-pistol-start' thing, coming from a wannabe game designer. So listen up.

Doom was made in the age where saving during gameplay was extremely rare and basically unheard of, most games run on automatic continues.
Even in games where you could save, you usually saved at end of session before tuning out, or whenever you ran by a dedicated savepoint. So people at id, who were brilliant designers, had to teach a generation of players how to save whenever they please.

So, people at id had to find a way to teach player to save often.
Easiest way to do that?

Simple, by punishing player for not saving.

It's game design 101, punish player for behaviour you don't want, and reward them for good behaviour. Classic, but works everytime.

So Doom reminds you to save by having player be constantly scared that they might retrun to the beginning of the level while losing all their precious guns.
And that is enough to remind the player to save often. And it worked, and it taught us all to be scared of not having your game saved. And thus, a new style of gameplay with quicksaves etc was born.

And the reason why GZDoom doesn't do that anymore is obvious - because it's a modern sourceport meant for modern audiences.
Nowadays, in our modern age we're all used to saving the game for ourselves, so that incentive is not needed anymore.
So, GZDoom doesn't do that because it's obsolete.

You can use the pistol thing as some self-imposed challenge, but that is all that is - self imposed challenge, kinda like trying to low% Metroid or something like that. You're intentionally hindering yourself to make game more difficult.


The truth is, Doom was never a particularly 'hardcore' game. Id wanted us to have fun, not to prove how BADASS we are by overcoming quarter-muncher like odds. Instead, Doom games aspire for longevity because of exploration, secrets, speedrunning potential, multiplayer etc.

[Anonymous No.4386914]

>>4384487
>>4386031
Because OP is a moron, that's why.

[Anonymous No.4386940]

>>4384580
This is 100% wrong. All IWAD maps are balanced for a pistol start on UV. This is obvious from their designs (shotguns frequently right at the start, etc.) but was explicitly confirmed by Petersen. I'm at work or I'd find the quote.

[Anonymous No.4386969]

>>4386868
They didn't implement it because it's so obviously cheating that you can do it if you want but it's.. you know... cheating. The thought never even crossed my mind it wasn't cheating until I found out online that some tards think doing it that way is legit.

I honestly can't fathom how dumb someone would have to be to think that literally scumsaving, where you can do it every few seconds and practically rewind, was not cheating in any game,

[Anonymous No.4386983]

>>4383723
If the devs only intended for you to save at the start if a level, why did they make the game so you can save and reload anywhere?

[Anonymous No.4387025]

>>4386983
>>4385883
>>4384487
>>4384009
>If I'm not supposed to cheat in the game, why does the game have cheat codes?
What u sound like rn

[Anonymous No.4387028]

>>4383723
reminder pistol restarting is a design oversight and limitation of the game devs couldnt figure out

[Anonymous No.4387108]

Carmack - So what did you guys work on today?
Romero - oh god we're still trying to figure out this damn pistol start glitch where you lose all your weapons and shit at the start of a level.
Carmack - Screw it, let's release it anyway.

[Anonymous No.4387110]

Carmack - So what did you guys work on today?
Romero - oh god we're still trying to figure out this damn pistol start glitch where you lose all your weapons and shit when you die and are put back at the start of the level. Almost as if it were some kind of punishment for dying.
Carmack - Screw it, let's release it anyway.

[Anonymous No.4387117]

>>4387025

cheat codes require specific input and/or a password that enables said cheats.

doom has saves on the menu.

give it a rest man. you're a waterhead.

[Anonymous No.4387149]

>>4387117
You're using literal save states you can just reload after you die... it's hard to mistake that for anything other than cheating. How far are you willing to take it, save ever five seconds? It's not under cheats true, that's because you had to still actually save. Honestly it never even crossed my mind that it wouldn't be cheating until I came on the internet, same with Quake or any other game you're put back in the beginning. Admittedly I never beat this game on a hard difficulty so it might make sense.

[Anonymous No.4387158]

Saving does not save whether or not enemies have already spotted you so it can very easily be used to cheese enemies. An enemy that was previously tailing you now has no idea where you are.

[Anonymous No.4387160]

>>4387149

it's not cheating, but it's trivializing the game yes.

i don't see why it matters either way. video games are not a right of passage. it's not some kind of life affirming, soul enriching medium (bar very few exceptions.) doom is an old game where you go to hell and shoot baddies. i don't give a shit if someone cheats or just abuses save states to beat it. what's the big deal?

[Anonymous No.4387162]

>>4383746
A) You have Autism
B) You have severe Autism

[Anonymous No.4387192]

>>4383723
It's none of your fucking business how anyone else plays a single player game.

[Anonymous No.4387196]

>>4383746

Who gives a shit how someone plays a single player game you fucking sped.