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/vr/ - Retro Games

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4298394 No.4298394 [Reply] [Original]

What's a game that /vr/ can collectively agree is actually a DIFFICULT game?

>> No.4298404

Atlantis no nazo

>> No.4298417

Solomon's Key

>> No.4298419

Adventures of Bayou Billy.

>> No.4298491

Ghosts 'n Goblins. I don't think even the most hardcore contrarian shits would claim this series is easy.

>> No.4298496

Fuckin' The Mysterious Murasame Castle my dude.

>> No.4298512

Sword of Kadash

>> No.4298513

What exactly makes something considered difficult? I see posts all the time saying "it's not difficult all you have to do is memorize these patterns", but I feel like that is what makes it hard in the first place

>> No.4298517
File: 58 KB, 736x562, ea877896beba555604295ab4291d4521--dwarf-fortress-meme.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Dwarf Fortress

>> No.4298520

execution is the difficult part

>> No.4298521

Impossible because there will always be that one guy who claims it's easy to feel good about themselves. Also all the games listed in this thread are a joke.

>> No.4298527

>there will always be that one guy
>all the games listed in this thread are a joke.

Great job asshole.

>> No.4298528


>> No.4298535
File: 69 KB, 430x429, IMG_0840.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

is there a remake of that game which isnt ugly, i wanna try it

>> No.4298587

Anything you have to put time into overcoming is difficult.

This includes just not knowing what to do and having to figure it out, which most veterans of whatever game we're talking about would probably disagree with.

Things like execution or adaptation on the fly (eg having to quickly react to rng events) is not the only sign of difficulty.

The trick is coming up with a level of difficulty that fits a general definition, because there's going to be that one retard who can't do what most people can. You can try to make a line a game has to cross before it can be considered difficult, such as "90% of people will give up on this challenge rather than put in the effort to overcome it". Problem with that is there's no statistics, so this is objectively subjective.

>> No.4299182

Just in case you are not joking, there are tilesets that do make it more visually appealing. Slightly.

>> No.4299191

Alex the Kidd

>> No.4299390

>Anything you have to put time into overcoming is difficult.

That's not true at all. Final Fantasy IV is an easy game. The fact that it takes a number of hours to overcome doesn't make it challenging, it just makes it time consuming.

>> No.4299413
File: 35 KB, 256x222, dsfsdf.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

The snes versions difficulty is okay.

BATTLETOADS on the other hand is not easy nes and snes :]

>> No.4299418

Nah it's easier than most classic games solely because you don't have to start the entire game from the beginning if you get hit three times.

>> No.4299423

Is there a way I can shove my dick in Haruhi's mouth IRL?

>> No.4299427

if you find a way please tell me
also >>>/a/

>> No.4299434
File: 62 KB, 300x830, Yuki_Nagato_2____by_Notaku_by_haruhi_madness.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Would rather fuck Nagato

>> No.4299456

Agreed. I'm surprised nobody has jumped on the NES port's "glitchiness" making it harder than the arcade version

That's Super Ghouls n Ghosts

I suppose that technically any golden age arcade game with progressive difficulty and no crash screen "ending" could be considered maximum difficulty

>> No.4299465

The Battletoads is hard meme needs to die, it's hard if you're under 12 but as you get older you realize that it's really easy aside from 3-4 bullshit unavoidable obstacles the first time through. 5/10 on the difficulty scale at best, it's no harder than a game like Crash Bandicoot or Spyro. Though I guess for Nintenyearolds a 5/10 is still way more than they'd be use to.

>> No.4299501

I would say the main reason Crash and Spyro aren't considered harder is because they have unlimited continues. Nothing sends normies into a rage like a "Game Over" screen.

>> No.4299535

Length has nothing to do with difficulty. You're going on about semantics.

>> No.4299548

Roguelikes in general are one of the most difficult genres because the player gas ro combine a large knowledge pool with a lot of strategic planning. And even then it's possible to find yourself in an unwinnable position.

For instance, you come across a long corridor and you are low on food. Do you follow it to the end and see if something is there, or leave it and continue towards the exit?

Going down that path could lead to something amazing or it could lead to nothing and contribute to you dying. Winning these games means not only knowing how everything works, but balancing odds and taking risks in a what few other kinds do.

>> No.4299551

It's his definition, not mine. We seem to agree it's bad though. Length indeed has no relation to difficulty.

>> No.4299556

He just didn't make himself entirely clear: I'm sure all three of us are in agreement on what difficulty means and how game length relates to it. There's little need at pedantry.

>> No.4299560

Maybe it's easy for you because you've played it to death you piece of shit.

>> No.4299594

No he made a statement so unclear it was straight up wrong. Time investment is an extremely poor gauge fir difficulty.

>> No.4299621

Actually the jap version of ff4 is the hardest rpg youll ever play

>> No.4299623

I could see "length as difficulty" if we were talking about some MMORPG-tier poopsocking. I don't think there's a lot of retro games that require that kind of investment though (and that's not even getting into whether or not it's good game design).

>> No.4299629


>> No.4299759


>> No.4299764

silver surfer is difficult, but feels rewarding to progress though I haven't completely beaten any stage I'd still enjoy attempting it

>> No.4299789

Ninja Gaiden series for NES should definitely be up there on any list of hard retro games.

>> No.4299821
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Classic cRPGs. Why? Because I suck at them and that's the only standard that really matters in the end.
Different people find different things difficult, amazingly. Some people hype up the difficulty of old platformers, and I'm sure those games are kicking their ass. For me, platformers are much easier to overcome than most genres, enough times throwing yourself at the level and memorizing some patterns usually works. On the other hand, you can say that for shmups, which I suck at, so whatever. I'm not saying that there isn't some kind of consensus that can form for generally hard games, but it's not unusual to find someone struggling through something you can't comprehend someone would find difficult.

>> No.4299857

Holy Diver

>> No.4299901

Use a tile set,unfortunately nobody can fix that shitty UI yet, the dev wants to focus more on features and bug fixes

>> No.4299976

Ascii is beauty

>> No.4300137
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Iter Vehemens ad Necem is both one of the hardest and one of the most delightful games ever made.

>> No.4300146

Super Mario 2 Lost Levels

>> No.4300457

Nothing. Never met a game that was so hard I had to write out difficult in underage case.

Whatever a cantgitgud says. Artificial difficulty, bad design, not hand holding, not catering to spastic ADHD kids etc. There's an endless list of excuses and when they run out they invent new terms to justify their sucktitude.

>> No.4300465

>underage case
>a cantgitgud

I'm not agreeing or disagree with you, but you sound like a goddamn retard.

>> No.4300493
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>> No.4300649


You're not overcoming anything by navigating menus. "Overcoming" is exclusive to game mechanics. So for a game like FF4 it would mean rationing items, getting good equipment in time, leveling well enough to beat the boss, all of which are done without overcoming anything. You'll always have enough potions, good enough charactes, etc.

If you honestly needed me to explicitly say that I'm talking about "any video game mechanics" when I say "anything" then this isn't board for you. Video game mechanics are the medium in the first place. You may as well have made a stupid "this movie is longer so it's harder" argument.

>> No.4300678

Dunno man you seem to be fine with ugliness.

>> No.4300695


>> No.4300704

DoDonPachi DaiOuJou, OP.

The UI is a pain to learn, but beyond that Dwarf Fortress is easy to the point where you almost have to deliberately endanger yourself to lose.

>> No.4300754

well, yes. There's no game that can't get a no hit run by a dedicated player. There's more to the question than that.
Difficult is not, for example, blind hits or hidden secrets you'd have no way to know outside memorization. Nor is it simply twitch-speed reflexes. Difficulty is something where skill matters, where getting good requires learning strategies and tactics more than enemy placement (although that can also be a factor)
A fighting game with a robust enough AI to not just easily cheese would be an example of a truly difficult game. A run and gun shooter in the vein of Contra (but not Contra specifically, which is pretty easy) with both elements to memorize and strategies for dealing with the boss rush represents a difficult game.

Battletoads is one that is often called one, but specifically is not. There's little challenge aside from rote memorization.

>> No.4300776


Wizardry IV: The Return of Werdna

>> No.4300872

The fact remains that you have to put time into overcoming FFIV, but it's not difficult. Your opening statement was stupid.

>> No.4300883

King's Field.

>> No.4300897


>> No.4301067

Takeshi's Challenge for the Famicom

>> No.4301108

>my age triggers me
Good. Good. Let the butthurt flow through you.

There are no retro fighting games that have good AI. There are only retro fighting games that "cheat". The only difficulty with these is coming to understand that's whats happening and taking a different approach.
All the "hard" retro games are only called that by kids with ADHD, early onset alzheimer's and poor problem solving skills. I honestly can't think of a game that can't be easily beaten if you don't have any of those.

>> No.4301138

>I honestly can't think of a game that can't be easily beaten if you don't have any of those.

>> No.4301158

Zelda 2
SMB Lost Levels

>> No.4301228


>> No.4301239

>Zelda 2
>SMB1 & SMB3
Semi-easy and easy

Mike Tyson's Punch-Out. Most of the game is easy but the last two fights are brutal.

>> No.4301256

Ninja Gaiden was a pain in the ass with flying enemies fucking your shit up by every bottomless pit.

Bubble Bobble is also really hard, I have never beaten the game solo.

>> No.4301330

Why do people say Battletoads on NES (NTSC) is hard? Only took me a few days with a few play throughs without warping, and it's not like I'm amazing at videogames.

>> No.4301334

I beat Bubble Bobble one player when I was in kindergarten

>> No.4301345

Well in that case the nes version is not difficult, because its pure luck and near impossible to play.

Battletoads on the otherhand isn'T impossible and luck based. its just fucking nuts hard

>> No.4301349

The difference is that crash and spyro are garbage games. And battle toads is much harder than crash bandicoot. BAndicoot is so fucking bad, psx fans are so ununderstanding of what good games are... psx fanboys ruined the games market, and are in the long run to blame for trash bombs like candy crush.
Okay listen kid, crash bandi coot:
1. Shitty jumping physics
2. shitty controls
3. awful hit detection
4. even more awful cheap design errors like enemies killing you after the main attack animation part
5. its on psx
6. no, you got no taste
7. go home

>> No.4301353

Does that not count as hard? If an hour-long game takes me days to complete then I'd consider it to be difficult.

>> No.4301368

Well, you might be talking about the wrong version then or your nes runs in slomo. There is an 'easy' battle toads like battletoads doubldragon and battletoads arcade.

I played only the snes battletoads in battlemaniacs, and never got beyond the turbo tunnel. So many years later I played through it with emulator and save states, and fucking shit, even if I ever would have beat the turbo tunnel, everything after that is insane. Like the snakes, good luck of not running out of lives there. And then the weird unicycle race...

IF anyone says that stuff is easy, he played that shit in slowmotion or something. Still nothing in battletoads is badly designed except maybe the snake part as you have to guess some stuff or got insane controls and reflexes I guess.

>> No.4301378
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Air Fortress

>I can make it, I know I can make it!
>Oh god I hope I can make it!
>uh oh
>no nonono!

>> No.4301389

Trojan for the NES. It was an arcade port. That game is brutal. I never knew anyone to have beaten that back in the 80s.

>> No.4301397


Brandish 2.

>> No.4301410

all easy

>> No.4301414



>> No.4301424
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>> No.4301448

Bezerk (1980)
E.T The extra Terrestrial (1982)

>> No.4301530

Sword of the Berserk: Guts' Rage.

>> No.4301540

Dude, I own the US release of NES Battletoads and there's no slowdown and it's harder than most games but I don't really see why it's hailed as one of the hardest games, that's all. Though it's one of my favorite games due to not being easy at first and have varied and unique level design with good music and graphics.

It's relatively hard, I guess, but it really isn't too challenging.

>> No.4301597

My bad.
For not redundantly pointing out that the game must be retro as per the rules of this board.
For expecting better of neo /v/

>> No.4301943

Read the rules friendo, IVAN is plenty fair fane for this board. Nethack, Tome or even Rogue would fit the bill for you as well though.

>> No.4301972

The problem with this is that you're obviously going to get the typical contrarians pretending that dificult games are pissy easy just to inexplicably look like a tough guy on a taiwanese boat building forum.

Another main problem though is that there are lots of people here that are unable to tell the difference between a game that was designed to be easy and a game that's only 'easy' to them because they spent their entire childhood playing the thing religiously until they knew it inside and out. Basically, they're too stupid to differentiate the difficulty of a game from their own level of experience with the game. Probably the most obnoxious variant of this kind of poster are the guys who played Castlevania 2 as kids and either had a friend tell them how to get past the cryptic bullshit or just went out and bought a guide. They'll act like the game is babby tier and the "puzzles" (for lack of a better term) just required a little bittle of perseverence and brain power that a low IQ underage kiddy like you could never possibly be capable of.

>> No.4301991

>Probably the most obnoxious variant of this kind of poster are the guys who played Castlevania 2 as kids and either had a friend tell them how to get past the cryptic bullshit

I'm the guy who usually mentions this when CV2 comes up and I never call it easy. Just say that I liked it.

>> No.4303145


You don't overcome FF4, you navigate menus.

Just because you think you found a contrarian gotcha doesn't mean it sticks.

Time spent doing is not the same thing as time spent overcoming.

>> No.4303148

>He only played the shitty SNES version
Play the DS version and your asshole will bleed

>> No.4303152


No I haven't, but if what you say is true, I don't think the guy I'm talking to has either.

>> No.4303339

I did read the rules kiddo. Nethack, Tome or even Rogue would not fit the bill for me so I'm guessing your non-retro game wouldn't either.

>> No.4303350

Not him but win9x games are in the rules.

>> No.4303391
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>> No.4303476

not /vr/ and not difficult. Pain in the ass to learn, sure. But it's not difficult at all.

>> No.4303531

Grinding =/= difficulty

>> No.4303556
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>> No.4303616

Until you reach level 8 and then you're screwed. You practically need cheats or a saved state to finish it.

When it comes to the very last levels, neither are easy.

>> No.4303674

The first Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles for NES

>> No.4303681

Level 8 on SMB so hard you need save states? You are not good at classic video games at all. Heck, there's a secret Super Player's Mode that you'll never unlock in there. Part of the unlock involves beating the game without a scratch or shortcuts. SMB3 is even easier, but nothing but time and patience will help anyone with Tyson in Punch Out.

Damn kids these days..

>> No.4303684


Zelda 2 is not easy but Mario? The fuck? I beat that on the can.

>> No.4303694

Commander keen the end levels in the one where you can pick your stages. For rpgs id say phantasy star and ultima

>> No.4303696

They're even easier for me. You've really made a fool of yourself today.

>> No.4303743

SMB1's last level is a bitch.

>> No.4303748

How? It's one of the easiest final levels in any game on the NES.

>> No.4304030

The NES port isn't glitchy, it's just poorly written. Big difference.

>> No.4304260

>win9x games
lol. Your mean minesweeper, hearts and that shitty pinball game?

>> No.4304342

Are you honestly that stupid? This is an 18+ board.

>> No.4304458

Crusader Kings 2

>> No.4304507

The NES port of Ghosts n Goblins is fine. In fact it was one of my favorite games when I was about 11. Maybe that explains something about my taste in games. There's really only one place with those two Red Arremers at the top of that ladder that's pure bullshit after your time is going to be pretty short from navigating there in the first place.

Games that can just be memorized are simply not as hard as games with crucial RNG. The point where any given player begins claiming "artificial difficulty" on these type of games is really just saying "this is too hard for me". I don't know why people can't just say that.

Like, with classic never ending arcade games. Back in the day, I used to enjoy gitting gud and setting high scores on local machines but now that I see the world record holders literally playing the same basic mechanics for HOURS I just would get bored I guess because I don't love getting into that kind of a "zone". That level of play is too hard for me.

I like for games to have a goal that can be completed, that you can say "I did it and I'm done" and feel satisfied with overcoming a real challenge. These days speedrunners even like to turn those type of games into a worldwide dick measuring contest but a game like Ghosts n Goblins resists even that because not only is it fundamentally balls hard enough to require serious skill just to tackle, no matter HOW good you are the amount of time it's going to take to beat it will always fall down to "luck".

To me, that makes it a good game. An anachronism.

>> No.4304550

>no matter HOW good you are the amount of time it's going to take to beat it will always fall down to "luck".

Not a lot of experience with it but why is it so for GnG different from other games that people speedrun?

>> No.4304565

Like your mom ;)

No seriously, go back to your room, son.

>> No.4304604

>taking the bait this hard
Please grow up /vr

>> No.4304681

>Projecting: The Post
Just because a game can run on Windows 9x doesn't make it retro champ.

>> No.4304746

There are a lot of enemies with fairly random behavior (and even spawns) that's also really aggressive so there are always times you just have to wait for an opportunity or die and even sometimes you just end up dead through no fault of your own. It's sometimes unwinnable (or perceived unwinnable) circumstances that I think trigger the "artificial difficulty" ree, especially with the continue option being secret.

>> No.4304886

Earliest public release I can find is from 2001, which isn't quite within the rules.

>> No.4304907

Games I can think of:
>Super Star Wars
>Legend of the Seven Paladins

>> No.4304908

kaizo mario

>> No.4304946

Not OP but what game?

>> No.4304959

Funniest response I have seen to one of those mass-replying cunts

>> No.4304965

not an argument

>> No.4304980


he's a playstation kid that never played battletoads

he thinks Crash Bandicoot was hard

>> No.4305250

Re-read the rules then if you still don't understand. Nothing here goes by the release date of the game itself, it goes by what system it runs on. That's why a genesis game released in 2017 is still 'retro' according to the board rules.

Any game that runs on Windows 95-98 is well within the rules of the board.

>> No.4305303


Again, I beat that while on the can.

And I don't mean I have beaten it on the can, I mean I still do.

>> No.4305339

There is a point there even if he doesn't fully grasp it, it would be possible for a game to be time consuming to master but have less depth of strategy. Like puzzle games can and often do get to absurd levels of difficulty that would take an incredible amount of practice to beat but I would consider it less of a challenge to perfect that kind of gameplay than master something with multiple layers and different kinds of problems to solve

>> No.4305341

Platinum relics were objectively hard

>> No.4305345


I don't think that's true. What you're describing is similar to learning to play an instrument perfectly. If you can't play it perfectly then there is room for improvement. The point where the wall truly sits is when human improvement is logically impossible, for instance Tetris becomes impossible to play once the blocks are simply moving faster than human reaction time permits.

>> No.4305361

There's a lot more variation and a higher skill ceiling to learning something like pinao or violin than Tetris though.

>> No.4305416

Tetris, violin, and piano all have essentially infinite skill ceilings. The best it's conceptually possible to be at tetris (or musical instruments) is higher than the best it's humanly possible to be at those things.

>> No.4305419

Violin and piano are magnitudes more complex than Tetrus though, that's the important point.

>> No.4305431

According to your illogic if a game runs on Windows 10 it's not retro then. lol.

>> No.4305439

Not him or his logic, but the rules here are completely retarded.

>> No.4305440


Not only is that not important at all, it's not true.

There is literally no connection whatsoever to difficulty and complexity. Those are separate concepts that don't relate to one another.


You might want to go take a logic class, they offer those. You'd be laughed down by the instructor/professor for not understanding logic so simple it's taught as an elementary logic gate in programming classes.

He said if a game runs on Win9x then it's retro. Whether or not the game runs on Win10 doesn't affect the outcome of that logic in the slightest.

>> No.4305460

That's funny, the rules specifically said PC games released on or before Dec 31st 1999.

It's right up in the sticky. You can go read it yourself. Unless you don't understand how clauses work and I'd be happy to explain it.

>> No.4305468

well of course if you can use an emulator with the save state, it turns totally easy, now try to do it without it. You could master it of course, but it is in fact, a hard and annoying game.

>> No.4305471

naaaah just the same shit

>> No.4305479

>That's funny, the rules specifically said PC games released on or before Dec 31st 1999.

Go ahead and quote the sentence from the sticky you think says that so I can have a hearty laugh.

>> No.4305491

They're both superhumanly, incalculably difficult to master. One might be a type of skill you respect more, but in terms of actual difficulty they're both as far outside of the human grasp as something completely impossible. They are, for all intents, infinitely difficult.

Go is another game that attains superhuman levels of depth and it's really simple. Dwarf Fortress is extremely complex, but it's pretty easy to succeed in. Complexity and difficulty are separate concepts and don't really correlate.

>> No.4305497
File: 14 KB, 1307x123, retro pc gaming.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]


There you go, that should clear things up.

Now I expect you're going to try to use the "no windows 98 is a platform" despite computer gaming specifically being named as a clause to the condition of release date, which is of course nonsense.

>> No.4305504


>> No.4305509

Nothing superhuman about it. Plenty of humans have mastered one ir more of them. I have a degree of skill with each. It takes a lot more work, practice and ultimately skill to reach the top 5% best piano or violin players than it does the best Tetris players though.

>> No.4305520

Yes operating system is a platform according to the rules here. This has been long established. I'm sorry you wasted so much time based on a misunderstanding. But it's not surprsing considering how all this started with super weak trolling in the first place.

>> No.4305537

You're wrong. Here's an example:

You move into a new apartment. You sign a lease that says "No smoking, pets, or guests after 11pm." Do you correctly interpret that to means no smoking is allowed, no pets are allowed, and no guests are allowed after 11pm, or do you follow your idiotic logic and argue that you are allowed to smoke, have pets and guests as long as it isn't after 11pm?

Do you see how clauses in a sentence work now? The "platforms" clause in the sticky isn't referring to PC gaming because PC gaming was already addressed in the second clause.

>> No.4305556

It's conceivable that someone could achieve, say, a speedrun of Super Mario Bros so fast that it would be impossible to ever improve upon it. No one has done this, but it's not quite outside the realm of conceivable human possibility. To master tetris or a musical instrument to the point where there's absolutely no room for improvement is absolutely beyond the realm of human possibility.

>> No.4305583

Ghosts n' Goblins is the Dark Souls of retro difficulty.

>> No.4305584

super mario 3 and the original zelda.
couldn't finish either one

>> No.4305617

>Now I expect you're going to try to use the "no windows 98 is a platform" despite computer gaming specifically being named as a clause to the condition of release date

No it isn't, retard, it says computer games, not computer gaming.

I'm 90% sure you're the troll bitching about online yesterday.

>> No.4305628


No, nobody has ever mastered any of the things we're talking about.

You're still trying to conflate complexity with difficulty.

>> No.4305632
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>> No.4305640

Not him, but you do know we have threads for Deus Ex and other games past 2000 because they run on Win 9x, and the mods completely allow it, right?

Ergo, you lose this argument because the mods accept it. It's also nice to see that we have some veterans still around here who don't nit-pick the rules because they're being annoying cunts like yourself. Get the fuck over it. You only nit-picked his game because you couldn't battle him on it.

>> No.4305654

Don't entirely disagree but you can't please everyone.

>he said something the rules don't say and claims thems the rules
>that makes him right
>there's a 74xx part for that
Thanks for the keks kiddo

>> No.4305663


Hmm, no, now you're trying to stuff words into the mouths of two people at once.

You're welcome for the keks, we all know you're really grumbling and upset.

>> No.4305686

Special Operations 2. That fucking Double-Fralthra mission.

>> No.4306104


Love this game. Not hard. You need to get all the energy you can during the space flights. Don't miss shooting anything.
Use your rockets VERY sparingly inside the fortresses. Don't forget to use bombs on the reactors or you'll be there all day.

>> No.4306161


>> No.4306191

Some more:
>Green Beret
>Earthworm Jim

>> No.4307657

Now you're just being pedantic and there is absolutely a correlation between complexity and difficulty. It's not 1 to 1 and there are many ither factors, but pretending the two aren't related is ridiculous.

>> No.4307705

No I'm not, there is no real master of any of the things we're talking about. That's not pedantic in the slightest.

There is no correlation between complexity and difficulty, this is easily proven by the fact that you can make a game simpler and it can just as easily become more difficult than it is to become less difficult. Tetris for instance is more difficult if you simplify it by removing the brick saving feature found in many versions of it.

In fact most games that people consider difficult are the simplest.

I once played Street Fighter against a guy who enters tournaments under the name Brolylegs. He was born disabled and can barely use his hands, which are barely formed. In order to play he has to put the controller up to his cheek and press the buttons with his tongue. He has to play with a different button configuration which means that he can't viably play several characters no matter what he does, so he can only pick characters that his button config allows. The game is substantially simpler and less complex for him because he isn't able to access all of the game, it's super fucking hard for him and he's ridiculously good at the game considered his limitation.

>> No.4307789

Saying there is no real master is the height of the pedantry. I didn't even read past there, there's no point. You're just being obtuse for the sake of it.

>> No.4307809


You're the guy claiming without an argument that complexity is inherently difficult and can't accept the objective fact that there is no one that cannot further improve at any of the examples you listed.

I bet you read the post in full.

>> No.4307816

>You're the guy claiming without an argument that complexity is inherently difficult a

0/10 reading comprehension
2/10 for baiting another response but you've shown your hand now

>> No.4307818


I have 10/10 reading comprehension which is why I have seen that your "argument" has been to just accept your conclusion as a given and stop there. You're also conveniently ignoring two counter-examples and repeating pedantry over and over again in the face of real arguments.

>> No.4307825


>> No.4307906

This, game is fucking brutal even if you are used to arcade.

>> No.4308085

Even the TG16 version isn't much easier

>> No.4308163

You are completely wrong of course, but it's now It's become interesting because at this point I now can't tell if you're still trolling (remember how this all started) or if this is now genuine upset rearing it's head. On the off chance you really are that dense though, do some actual reading on the uses of commas in English.

>> No.4308559

Pretty much any Chinese bootleg since the controls and hit detection are so fucked they're borderline impossible.

>> No.4309102

>To me, that makes it a good game. An anachronism.

Did he just say that? OHH SNAP!!

>> No.4309921

>tfw beat Comix Zone and got the good ending

One of my favorite retro vidya memories.

>> No.4309936

>willfully ignores basic rules of English
>but the other guy is the troll

Anything to save face on an anonymous board. What a weird habit.

>> No.4309960

Go start a thread about your shiity ass game then. Put your money where your mouth is if all you can say is "nuh uh you dumb troll!"

>> No.4310068

It wasn't even my game, I was just shoving a sock down your weak ass "hur duur every game us easy if you don't have adhd" for the fun of it and you flailed like a goddamn retard over it.

You never answered though, was that rules shit still your trolling or were you really that stupid? Either way is great.

>> No.4310074

Try reading up on the various uses of commas in English and maybe you'll grasp why you look so idiotic over the whole thing. Hint not everything is a clause

>> No.4310385

Ohh fuck that game.

>> No.4311229

ITT: people who play with savestates.

>> No.4311882

>There is literally no connection whatsoever to difficulty and complexity

But humans can only concentrate on a finite number of things at a time and multitasking either physically or mentally lowers performance. Effectively it makes each activity more difficult.

It's relatively easy to do a number of activities separately,say read a book, tap your feet right to the rhythm of a drum or do multiplication problems in your head. But it's much harder to do all three at once, and all that's been added is complexity.

>> No.4312907
File: 127 KB, 256x192, 1437476633618.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

PS1 is pretty hard with that level cap and those dungeons.

>> No.4313769

Not even close to a real dungeon crawler though.

>> No.4313780


Again, wrong, you can make the toe tapping frame perfect as a requirement as it's too hard for even a professional drummer.

No correlation. It's just as simple to make something simple difficult, meaning there is no correlation.

You cannot claim playing an instrument is "harder" than playing Tetris because "it's more complicated". It's trivial to make Tetris difficult. There are versions made that are so fast that just as many people just give up as compared to people learning to play Flight of the Bumblebee.

>> No.4313861

>You cannot claim playing an instrument is "harder" than playing Tetris because "it's more complicated". It's trivial to make Tetris difficult. There are versions made that are so fast that just as many people just give up as compared to people learning to play Flight of the Bumblebee.

Except that learning to play an instrument us harder and mostly because of it's complexity. Adding speed makes things harder but applies to both equally.

It also gets harder abd harder to play a specific song at a faster tempo, the same way Tetris does. The other guy was right it's not the only thing but it's definitely a factor.

>> No.4313938 [SPOILER] 
File: 459 KB, 757x678, 1507477304478.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

final fantasy 7

>> No.4314208
File: 1.85 MB, 302x215, kofa_6058092.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]


Like I said, it's not the only thing but the two are unquestionably linked. His point wasn't that tapping your toe is hard. It's that tapping your toe in time is much harder if you're also trying to do other shit like answer math riddles, whistle a different tune and play a fighting game at the same time.

The first level of Super Mario 1 is dead easy. Reading a paragraph and then reciting it word for word is also relatively easy. However playing the first level of Super Mario 1 while a line of text scrolls past and being able to beat the level and then recite the text is a much, harder task than doing one or either separately.

>> No.4315543
File: 691 KB, 320x200, budokan 1.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Budokan is actually quite difficult to complete.

>> No.4315552


You still don't get it.

You haven't proven anything, any example you can make to prove how you made the game harder doesn't matter, you have to prove that it's impossible to make a simple game just as much harder. Otherwise saying complex games are harder than simple games means nothing.

Your initial statement was this self-contradictory nonsense:
>Like puzzle games can and often do get to absurd levels of difficulty that would take an incredible amount of practice to beat but I would consider it less of a challenge to perfect that kind of gameplay than master something with multiple layers and different kinds of problems to solve

>absurd levels of difficulty
>less of a challenge to perfect that kind of gameplay than master something with multiple layers and different kinds of problems to solve

All of the "complex" games you're talking about are easy shit, the hardest games are puzzle games, shoot em ups, really just the oldest, simplest games. You're not validating your claim, you're trying to defend the hole easily poked in it over and over again.

>> No.4315563

Memorizing is part of the equation.

'execution' is quite literally muscle memory.

>> No.4315575


Muscle memory is difficult. Especially when it's difficult to know when to doing that fancy finger pressing.

In ST, Ken's throw loops are obnoxious to get out of because the person being looped has to do a frame perfect shoryuken when Ken tries to throw. You can make this easier by doing a piano technique (press all three punch buttons one after the other) but that's hard because the Ken player can fuck with the timing. The technique to make it easier is still totally necessary but becomes really awkward to use.

>> No.4315580

Nothing you just said comes close to discounting the point that compexity and difficulty are linked. Because it's self evident.

The only thing that makes something like Tetris get truly difficult is when it's moving do fast you can barely react.

Same with shumps, they only really get difficult when they're moving fast or there's a ton of bullets and enemies on screen, which is back to complexity.

And again, making something fast makes everything harder. Take a truly difficult game like a traditional roguelike. They're all turn based for a good reason. The games are so complex and challenging that you often need to carefully consider your options and what the next best move will be. Adding real world time pressure would make them far more difficult.

So with Tetris, when it's starting to get challenging you have maybe a second from your block appearing to when it will land and that's why it's starting to get hard.

Nethack where you had to make a move literally every second would be virtually unbeatable.

Sorry, there is most deffinitely a relationship between the two.

>> No.4315584


You still haven't justified a blanket statement like "complex games are more difficult".

Saying Tetris being so fast that it's basically too fast for human reactions isn't any different from taking anything else and making it too difficult for human reactions. If you are going to do that, then the complexity of the game means nothing. It's going to be so fast that your human brain will be boggled.

You're aiming for an argument based on some nuance that, for all practical purposes, doesn't mean anything.

And this still is not accounting for instances of games where simplicity makes the game harder, such as the example of removing the block saving feature from Tetris.

>> No.4315605

Because I wasn't making that blanket statement. I was saying the two are related.

Something like Tetris can be difficult, but only when something like speed is increased. You could easily play level 1 Tetris for as long as you could stay awake. It's hard because it gets fast, and that's something that's universal.

> you are going to do that, then the complexity of the game means nothing

It basically doesn't. Tetris is very simple, without time pressure it's extremely easy to arrange the blocks so you keep your level low. Speed makes it hard.

Again if you added that to Nethack the game would be so hard it would be nearly unplayable. That's why it's turn based.

Compexity isn't the only thing that makes something difficult, but can most certainly be a contributing factor.

>> No.4316194

Jet Force Gemini?

>> No.4316205

Every game posted in this thread, by any definition either objective, subjective, individual, etc. is easy for me to beat in one try. Even the ones I never played until I tried them because I saw them in this thread were easy.

>> No.4316317


>> No.4316472

Comix Zone with the good ending

>> No.4316649
File: 126 KB, 640x1066, 304-Enemy_Zero_Disc_1_of_4_(U)-1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Surprised nobody said Enemy Zero.

>> No.4316658

the thing that pisses me off is that this game would have been passable if the sound locator thing had FUCKING STEREO. trying to find an invisible monster in a 3D space based on the pings in ONE FUCKING EAR is a nightmare

>> No.4316668

I just thought of this. I can do fine, until I hit the fight with Zod, or whatever that huge fucker's name is.

I can get a handle on the mechanics and timing. I know just how much the healing items restore, and how much the side weapons take off. I can get the timing of the berserk rages. what I can't do is put it all together in a perfectly coordinated performance. I keep slipping up, somewhere, and losing just enough health that I don't make it.

that fight is a goddamned high-wire act. you have to do a million things PERFECTLY to get through it.

>> No.4316674

can we add to this the kind of Rain Man autism kids who dial into pattern recognition and reflexes that most people don't have? nothing is worse than some idiot savant bragging about how the one thing he is good at is super easy and he can't understand why no one else can get on his level.

>> No.4316676

>pain in the ass =/= difficult

not even trying to start a fight... seriously, can you explain this?

>> No.4316683

This game can't be beaten without cheating. It also is two years too new to be retro.

>> No.4316780
File: 23 KB, 278x358, NBA_2K2_Cover.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

It can actually, and that's disputed.

>> No.4316965

>reflexes that most people don't have
stop playing on that laggy LCD you dummy

>> No.4316970

Nigga please. Like it's so hard to learn not to go all the way up or down on that last section.

>> No.4316973

When hurdles are stacked demanding you be uber precise.

>> No.4317001

I find shooters absurdly difficult and I can't into them for shit. Between the single hit deaths and trying to shift focus from my ship to the enemies on the screen just slays me.

Also given up on ever being good at RTS.

>> No.4317270

What games are you good at?

>> No.4317274

Everything not rts or shooter. Ikaruga is the only shooter I can play competently but I'm sure it's considered casual shit.

>> No.4317374

Can you play fighters or puzzle games like Puyo well?

>> No.4317378

Shit yeah fighters are my favorite genre. Puzzlers not so much they get a little tedious for me.

>> No.4317390

Weeeird, I wonder why. Cool though, everyone's brain is different.

>> No.4317408

I've tried so, so hard to get gud at Starcraft. I just suck hard at the micromanagement. I'm okay with shmups that rely on patterns they just seem really unforgiving if you don't play conservatively enough.

>> No.4318216

The controls and interface are not sensibly designed at all and it makes learning the commands take much longer than it should. The game is also quite bloated with lots of unclear and redundant items, features, etc. However, once you do know the controls and the basic rules, it is trivial to keep your dwarves alive and lead them to great wealth and power.

>> No.4318220

>they just seem really unforgiving if you don't play conservatively enough.
That's the natural process of learning a shmup. First you learn to play as defensively as possible and rely heavily on bombs until you're good enough to reliably 1cc. That in and of itself can be a long process. Then once you've got that foundation, you build on it by playing for score, going for no-miss clears, and those sorts of things.

>> No.4318229

ikaruga is average difficulty. it's actually pretty hard for a non-looping shooter.

>> No.4318534

Ephemeral Phantasia.

Fucking impossible without a guide, and the limits for how long a "day" is is way too short to give you time to level up.

>> No.4318637

That sounds so fucking boring to me

>> No.4319910

Makes no difference.

>> No.4319941

Dear Esther
Kirby's Epic Yarn
Klonoa Wiimake

All games that are both definitely older than 1999 and make Dark Souls Player's look like fucking pussies.

>> No.4319981

I played the final fantasy chronicles version. Yeah it was hard by final fantasy standards, but the part of that experience I'll always remember is grinding like 20-30 levels at the last savepoint. It's one of the grindiest jrpg's I've ever played, and the most difficult part by far was not quitting during that final stretch out of boredom

>> No.4319986

>Kirby's Epic Yarn
Is there some secret mode I am unaware of? Last I checked, you literally couldn't die.

>> No.4319990


>> No.4320045

I was unfamiliar with the other two titles. My bad.

>> No.4320136

What does? Playing defensively until you're good enough to play aggressively? That's going to be true for any difficult game. Gotta learn to walk before you can run. You could always pick an easy shmup and play aggressively right from the start.

If you don't want to play for score or go for the second loop or whatever then that's fine. Single loop 1CCs are still plenty satisfying to work towards.

>> No.4320143

Makes sense. I do good enough against bosses but I always end up doing something stupid on the stages. I do way better on ones where you ship is slow it's like the fast and loose shooters always get me killed from overdoing it.

I really got in the groove with it. I think screen distance and the fact that it's vertical has a lot to do with it though. Also the reverse coloring becomes instinct really quick.

>> No.4320319

I think it's usually harder to tell what you're doing wrong in stages. Like, if you're on the wrong part of the screen when enemies spawn or if you prioritize the wrong target things can become much harder than they need to be. Bosses are simpler (not necessarily easier) because you generally just need to dodge the patterns for long enough to deplete their hp.

>> No.4320327

just yes

>> No.4320521

I can get to the last level without too much trouble, but that level is impossible.

>> No.4321974

Vertical vs horizontal makes a huge difference.