/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.4290989]

Recently, for the past year or two, I've been seeing a fringe group of people coming out of the woodwork asserting that Metroid II is some kind of high art game. They claim that Metroid II is "supposed" to be a dark, horrifying, grim examination of the horrors of genocide that asserts a strong anti-violence message. They claim that it is essentially Shadow of the Colossus over a decade before it came out, how you are supposed to feel guilty for your actions taking out the Metroids, and how the ending is supposed to make you reflect on what you did and represent Samus overcoming her genocidal tendencies and showing signs of pacifism. These people have been vocal opponents of the remakes, both the official and fanmade ones, for being "pro-violence" and "missing the point" of the original themes.

My questions are:

Where the hell is this mindset coming from?

and

Is there any truth to it whatsoever? Any design documents about how you are supposed to feel guilty for killing the Metroids, or that it was intentionally designed to be a horror game, or anything of that nature?

[Anonymous No.4291004]

OP, show documentation of your claims. One or two forum screenshots or article links would be appreciated.

[Anonymous No.4291005]

>>4290989
some of the music gives a pretty big sense of dread

[Anonymous No.4291053]

>>4290989
Sounds like they're reading way too deep into it. I never heard the word genocide thrown around to describe this game until the mid 2000s or so at the earliest.

As a game I'm not a huge fan of this one. I got stuck at the 3rd or 4th lava level when I couldn't find the last metroid in the area. I spiderballed + bombed every single surface and just couldn't find him so I gave up when I was a kid. AM2R is great though

[Anonymous No.4291057]

>>4290989

i could see making the argument that metroid II is the first survival horror game, and it's got some great art design and atmosphere for its time, but i can't really see the whole "anti-genocide" narrative. it's clearly just a dark gritty game about exterminating some fuckin aliens.

[Anonymous No.4291079]

>>4290989
I played the game when it came out and had some similar sensations. I certainly felt sympathy for the other Metroids a litte after seeing how the baby acts. It made other playthroughs a little different.

On top of that though, a new generation if people are playing it now and seeing the game with different perspectives than we did. I think it's really cool to see how perspectives on games change. In art a viewers reaction and interpretation is often considered as valid as the artist's intention so the same could well be true of games.

[Anonymous No.4291081]

>>4290989
>how you are supposed to feel guilty for your actions taking out the Metroids, and how the ending is supposed to make you reflect on what you did and represent Samus overcoming her genocidal tendencies and showing signs of pacifism.

You actually described what the end is. It's a different experience playing as a kid, it took me months to beat the game.

From what I remember, the game is a seemingly endless and systematic extermination of every single metroid in every sector of the planet. You kill every single metroid or so you think, then you kill the metroid mother. Then right before the game ends you make friends with the last living metroid and it helps you escape, you have no way of escaping without its help, plus the music was this kind of bittersweet and perfect to go with the escape scene.

If you don't get it then I guess you had to be there back when this was the best Metroid game out.

[Anonymous No.4291185]

Another strange sentiment I've been hearing recently is that Metroid II is somehow, supposedly, a better game than Metroid 1.

[Anonymous No.4291201]

>>4290989
You're talking about S.R. Horriwell's gamasutra article from 2015 (before either remake), right?
Because that essay she wrote is like leagues better than shit post you'll ever write in your life.

https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/SRHoliwell/20150130/235329/A_Maze_of_Murderscapes_Metroid_II.php

[Anonymous No.4291204]

>>4290989
You're talking about S.R. Horriwell's gamasutra article from 2015 (before either remake), right?
Because that essay she wrote is like leagues better than any shit post you'll ever write in your life.

https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/SRHoliwell/20150130/235329/A_Maze_of_Murderscapes_Metroid_II.php

[Anonymous No.4291235]

>>4291004
Not OP but there were a bunch of people on /vr/ and /v/ when AM2R released saying the original was meant to be a 'horror' game and now that SR is out they're saying the exact same thing.

>>4291185
Yeah this pissed me off, the game's single biggest flaw IMO. Exploration in M2 would be so much easier and more fun if we could see more than the six inches either side of Samus. I get that it's the result of hardware limitations but Metroidvania isn't a genre which works with tiny screens. If M2 had come out on the NES it would've been perfect.

[Anonymous No.4291253]

>>4291235
I'm not saying that M2 is bad game, but it's irritating to see people claim that overall it's far superior to M1. Admittedly, both game shave their flaws.

I would have loved to see what a early 90s, end-of-console-life NES Metroid 2 would have looked like. Just imagine what they could have done. But Nintendo needed to push their new handheld, I guess, I get their reasoning.

[Anonymous No.4291265]

Please don't call it Metroidvania.....how bouts Samuslike or Metroidlike, like Roguelike? something like that. Just not Metroidvania. Creepy Crawlers or something.
Also, if you play it first THEN read into it like no other game in history, it'd probably have made more sense. Damn, all that love out there and Nintendo still doesn't think people like the series.

[Anonymous No.4291270]

>>4291265
The term that crops up every now and again is "Tansaku" which reads as "exploration platformer"

[Anonymous No.4291317]

>>4290989
Op, let me tell you a little story about the Nsider forums. I got an account there to get the Zelda collection 12 years ago, but stayed for the forum.

There was a group of people on that forum with a very odd but incredibly dogmatic belief that the people involved in making Zelda: the Wind waker were murderers.
Paragraph after paragraph, post after post, they would list reason after reason to convince people that everyone in the hyrule of Ocarina of time had been brutally killed for the sake of wind wakers plot, and that this was an unjust thing to happen because they had a right to live.

I don't know where this mindset came from either, OP. But it's been around a long time.

[Anonymous No.4291352]

Undertale fans
Not even kidding

[Anonymous No.4291415]

>>4291270
I hereby propose the term "non-linear dungeon-platformer".

It may sound cumbersome, but if you break it down, it describes the genre quite nicely. Non-linearity is a key element (backtracking), maps usually feature a convoluted, branching, dungeon-like layout (instead of simple, straight corridors) while the side-scrolling 2D platforming physics are another essential hallmark.

[Anonymous No.4291425]

hmmmm, non linear....circle......people who don't like the genre cause it's too hard or something....jerks.....I'd love to call it one big circle jerk but that's unfair to the series. Funny, but unfair and totally uncalled for haha I love Metroid, btw.

[Anonymous No.4291427]

I'm 34, was a kid when Metroid II came out. I really enjoyed the game when it came out, playing it on my game boy with shitty light attachment under the covers in the middle of the night when I was supposed to be asleep. Unfortunately for people who didn't grow up with this game or didn't really spend a lot of time with it then, it's hard to fully grasp the context of when this game came out; there really wasn't an established series quota (think Legend of Zelda I vs. Zelda II: The Adventure of Link), so it wasn't really a crazy thing for it to be different than the previous installment.

That being said, with Gunpei Yokoi et al originally saying that they were inspired by the Alien films, I think that definitely bleeds through in Metroid II in atmosphere, sound effects, and sparsely placed music.

To address OP: High art? Nah. Survival horror? To an extent, you have a lot of equipment at your disposal. Being made to feel guilty about eradicating all the metroids? Not...guilt. I think it's obvious you're supposed to realize that the metroids are only "evil" if manipulated as such.

I know it's cool to shit on Metroid II, but I have a lot of great memories playing it.

[Anonymous No.4291529]

>>4290989
>Where the hell is this mindset coming from?
Triggered underage faggots

[Anonymous No.4291576]

>>4291270
It's official, Tansaku is the best name for the genre so far. We're calling it that now.

[Anonymous No.4291669]

>>4291235
I'm not sure if you was ever told this but "metriodvania" wasn't a genre back then. They just wanted to make a portable metriod for the killer app at the time and did.
It's really no more simple that that.

[Anonymous No.4291674]

>>4291576
We are not calling it that you weeb faggot.
Just call it an action game or something simple like we used to and leave it at that.

[Anonymous No.4291716]

>>4291415
Metroidvania caught on for a reason.

[Anonymous No.4291772]

The parallel between the actions of Samus and Ridley isn't hard to draw. Both are some powerful alien entity who came from the stars and killed everything in its path until it reaches the lone surviving child. In that moment, Samus sees a bit of herself in that baby metroid, so she spares its life. I don't think it's supposed to influence the tone of anything besides the ending though, and there are many more pertinent gameplay related issues I'd worry about before I brought up my own interpretation of the original ending.

And before anyone accuses me of being some hipster doofus riding the latest bandwagon analysis, I've been saying this for years. It's just that nobody cares what I have to say.

[Anonymous No.4291775]

>>4291772
That backstory didn't even exist at the time M2 was released. Just saying.

[Anonymous No.4291784]

>>4291775
But it did exist for more than "the past year or two". Plenty of time to color the interpretation of a previous game.

[Anonymous No.4291883]

>>4291775
Not him but even without any backstory (it was the first Metroid I played) a lot of that sensation came through, at least for me.

I wouldn't call it survival horror at all, but I do think the small pov added to the claustrophobic feeling the game has.

[Anonymous No.4291901]

There isn't a single argument for Metroid 2 being a horror game that doesn't boil down to "bad games feel different from good games".

>Metroid 2 has a darker atmosphere

No, it's literally darker. the game is missing graphics.

>it feels claustrophobic

The FOV is small. Samus' sprite takes up an extreme amount of screen space.

>You're so vulnerable

You can't shoot diagonally and Samus is slow and clunky.

The game, which is about a godlike space warrior wiping out the Metroids, instead makes Samus feel inept, blind, clumsy, and pitiful. It's at odds with the world and with the mechanics. If Super Metroid turned the screen off and just went completely dark for 5 seconds every half minute, it would make Samus feel a lot more vulnerable, sure, but it's only because i'm apparently playing as a person with vision problems. Same with Metroid 2. It's a lot of incompetence that only contributes to an atmosphere of weakness and vulnerability because the game mechanics are too inept to allow the player to play competently and confidently, unlike every other Metroid.

[Anonymous No.4291918]

>>4291901
Ypu could say almost literally the same things abput RE and SH. Also It's semi recent that she's portrayed as a godlike space warrior or that you assume she should be.

It's a game where you're exploring an alien world where almist everything wants to kill you.

I get not loving the game but it really feels like you're grasping at straws to purposefully not get why so many others dud.

[Anonymous No.4291961]

>>4290989
>Where the hell is this mindset coming from?

idiots that think a game can only be justified if it has some 'message' and are insecure about their hobby

>Is there any truth to it whatsoever? Any design documents about how you are supposed to feel guilty for killing the Metroids, or that it was intentionally designed to be a horror game, or anything of that nature?

Would it matter? Would it change a single thing about whether the game was enjoyable?

>asserts a strong anti-violence message
The only way the game can be anti-violence is if you have Samus never leave the starting screen. Same with Shadow of the Collosius.

[Anonymous No.4291971]

>>4291961
M2 is one thing, that's an action game. SotC is most deffinitely anti violence. The game tries to make the player feel as shitty as possible for playing it.

[Anonymous No.4292005]

>>4290989
This is the first time I have seen anyone say something like this, so no to everything.

[Anonymous No.4292035]

>>4291918
Not him, but he is correct about the 3 points he made.
The game is in fact a lot darker because the creators had to leave out a lot of details because the Gameboy, as cool as it was, didn't have color to work with. The rest of the series doesn't feel that dark because the rest of the Metroid games actually have the elements necessary to stay away from that. M1 has always been cool and fun, but it also looks like a toy from Hasbro. The colors are bright and pop against the black background. In M2's case, the grey and more grey doesn't exactly pop from the background. Monochrome doesn't give a very lively feel, hence why it's used in plenty of cheesy horror films.

Also screen space was at a premium, but they decided to go with a 1:1 build of Samus on it, so when you put a 1:1 Samus on a small screen from a big screen, no wonder it's going to feel claustrophobic. She's taking up a shit-ton of space. If they had scaled it somewhat more appropriately, maybe it wouldn't have been so bad. Note that in all of the other installments, you have more screen to work with. Definitely helps. I can see how the small screen adds to the effect, but I can't think of it as intentional because the rest of the Metroid games even after never kept that feel. Super Metroid has some pretty dark moments, but I'll admit the only thing that ever messed with me was when you're fighting that monster with all the eyes, you dump it in Lava, then it's skeleton comes back.

And for feeling vulnerable, part of that is the FOV for M2. I've never felt as vulnerable simply because I wasn't getting screwed by the fact that there was no time to react thanks to placements and screen-size.

Not to mention, but I kind of wonder if you'd noticed this or not, the more memorable tracks from Metroid are found in M1 and SM. Pretty much every other Metroid game has more memorable music. Part of that is hardware limitations, but it's almost like they didn't even try when making the soundtrack for M2.

[Anonymous No.4292063]

>>4292035
>they decided to go with a 1:1 build of Samus on it
This is actually wrong. Neutral standing sprite is 32px tall on NES and 37px on GB. They INCREASED the sprite size on a system that had less than half the total amount of pixels the NES had.

[Anonymous No.4292073]

>>4292035
I don't discount that the game is dark because of it's limited pallete. I just think it helps add to the atmosphere and feeling of the game.

Same with her size on screen. It gives the game a cramped feel which ads to the atmosphere as well. Maybe it was intended, maybe not but I think the effect works.

I don't care about music much.

This is from the perspective of someone who had only played a little Metroid 1 (rented once) and then played Metroid 2. It became one of my favorite games on the gameboy and for many of the reasons you're listing that you didn't like.

And I think that's cool. We all like different things about games which is what makes talking about them interesting.

[Anonymous No.4292092]

>>4292035
Continuing
In M2, the most memorable track for me are The overworld, The part where the Baby Metroid hatches, and then the Credit music. In Metroid 1, The title music got me first thing, but then as I played it, the soundtrack really got me. I think the worst parts of it were the Secret Rooms, but even the music for those was better done than most of the music for Metroid 2. Unless every room in Metroid 2 happens to be a secret room. Or maybe, Norfair's theme. I never really liked that theme, but it had more going on than most of Metroid 2 in the music department.

That being said, I still find Metroid 2 fun to dick around in, but honestly, AM2R is the best version of it so far. I haven't played the 3DS release yet, but even then, I'm not sure I'm going to because Nintendo's M2R is slightly annoying in how it came to be.
>Fans of M2 tell Nintendo they want a Metroid 2 remake so it actually plays right.
>Nintendo never does shit about it because it was a bad game from the start.
>Fans get tired of Nintendo doing nothing and make a good remake of it.
>Nintendo slaps them with a C&D, claiming they totally had this remake planned for a long time (although they never said fucking shit about it) then cobble together a shitty 3D game instead of just hiring the people involved in AM2R/buying AM2R from them and then porting it to the 3DS, because that 3D samus model looks so much better than the Metroid Fusion and Zero Mission sprites.

All that aside, Metroid 2 is a bad game. It doesn't matter how much you like it, it lacks the polish and dedication the rest of the games clearly got and it's easy to see. Everyone talking about how much they loved Metroid 2 is some majorly revisionist history bullshit. Not a lot of people liked Metroid 2.

[Anonymous No.4292106]

>>4292063
Oh well, thanks, that further proves the point then about that piece.

>>4292073
I'm not trying to shit on you, but if you compare it to its original game only, then yeah, you can make a lot of the extrapolation people tend to when making claims about Metroid 2. However, if you decide to compare it to Metroid 1 and any of the other Metroid games set in 2D, it loses all credibility for that explanation really fast. Metroid 1 was a more solid game in general. More work went into the first Metroid than the second. Also, music in a game can be all the difference for making it good or bad. If you took the music from Ecco the Dolphin, the gameplay is good, the game itself looks good, but its a lot harder to enjoy without the ambiance and atmosphere the music creates. Even Warren Spector talks about how important the music for Deus Ex was and why it had to be right. You can decide to be apathetic about music in a game, but it definitely helps make or break a game.

[Anonymous No.4292107]

>>4292073
How do you like the fact that Samus controls slow and sluggish to prevent you from running into enemies all the time because the view distance is so short? How do you frame that in a positive manner?

You have every right to like the game, it is a good game after all. I just don't get people re-framing its shortcomings as strengths.

>>4292092
Don't be so hard on it, it's decent for being a launch title. Also, Norfair music is great. it's dreadful (except for that sweet short melodic section), but that's the whole point.

[Anonymous No.4292108]

>>4291971
>SotC is most deffinitely anti violence
The only way the game can advance is through violence. Either the violence happens to you or the Collosi.

>The game tries to make the player feel as shitty as possible for playing it

Not at all. It tried to make fighting the Collosi feel epic and powerful. That's what the soundtrack is about. And that's the effect it had on me.

Even if the entire creative team on SotC said it was an anti-violence game they are wrong, since the game's outcomes are all decided by violence it is mechanically speaking a pro-violence game. Pretty much all games ever made are by their very nature pro-violence games.

I'm reminded of Roger Ebert's review of the Pokemon movie. Which went something like 'for an hour and half we are entertained by cartoon animals fight. Than in the last few minutes everyone learns that fighting is bad. A lesson which none of the characters will remember if they make a sequal'. That's pretty much sums up all anti-violence messages in games ever.

For 10-20 hours we are entertained by stone giants fighting than we get a few minutes of a cutscene telling us that violence is bad.

[Anonymous No.4292110]

>>4292092
>Metroid 2 is a bad game. It doesn't matter how much you like it

You honestly believe this, don't you? A game with as many fans over the years as it's had who loved it were all objectively wrong for thinking it was good.

[Anonymous No.4292116]

>>4292106
You can say that but I rented once and wasn't in love with Metroid. I rented Metroid 2 and bought it. Part if that is that I've always loved playing games portable but also there was something about the game that grabbed me.

Super Metroid was incredible when it came along though.

[Anonymous No.4292120]

>>4292107
Neither Metroid 1 nor 2 were launch titles. Metroid 1 came out in '86 whereas the NES came out in '83. Metroid 2 came out in '91, and the Gameboy which it was released for was released in '89.
2-3 years away from release is not a launch title.

Also, I get that the Norfair music in M1 was purposefully like that, I don't exactly like listening to it though. It's not something I'd listen to randomly just because, nor do I go look for remixes of it. Not saying it's bad, but its the least involved of all the tracks in metroid 1.

[Anonymous No.4292124]

>>4292107
Claustrophobia. Spelunking. Scary.

I like that lind of thing in games. I'm also the local Ecco and Roguelikes obsessive. Maybe that makes things make more sense?

[Anonymous No.4292125]

Is it meht-roid or meet-roid? I think it's the first but I've heard some say the second.

[Anonymous No.4292132]

>>4292108
>For 10-20 hours we are entertained by stone giants fighting than we get a few minutes of a cutscene telling us that violence is bad.

You can see it that way, but you're one of the few.

[Anonymous No.4292138]

>>4291004
This isn't exactly the same thing, but here's a critical review of AM2R written shortly after it came out told from the perspective of someone who adores Metroid II and possibly reads a bit too deeply into it:

http://www.acriticalhit.com/am2r-depth-critical-review/

I actually like this review a lot but it might be placing Metroid II on a bit too high of a pedestal.

[Anonymous No.4292157]

>>4292132
No dumb ass. That's really how the game pans out. Almost 100% of the game is spent fighting monsters, which is an act of violence. The game quite literally advances through violence.

If you act non-violent you either sit in the fucking field and nothing happens OR you get squashed like a bug and reload your save till you decide to start being violent.

It's no more anti-violent than Metal Slug. Even if they were to change SotC or Metal Slug so character in the cutscene were to monologue about how violence is bad or if he were to wear a t-shirt with Ghandi's face on it it still wouldn't change the fact that the entire locomotion of the plot is advanced by violence.

Same reason that Ebert points out the entire violence message in the Pokemon movie is a joke because Ash and his friends solve all their problems by beating up other pokemon. Anyone who took the message seriously, including the children the movie was made for, are not very bright.

[Anonymous No.4292167]

>>4292138
And she also said about Samur Returns
>It looks like a nice return to form, so I'll give it a shot if I get the opportunity.
And, honestly, SR does not capture the atmosphere at all, AM2R doesn't capture it either but it's MUCH closer to it

[Anonymous No.4292176]

>>4292157
Jesus I already said it. It's not that the game isn't violent, it is. But you're not supposed to (and many many didn't) feel cool and awesome for killing them. The game makes you feel like shit fir it and keeps twisting the knife. It's the whole point if the game.

[Anonymous No.4292185]

>>4292110
Then what makes it a GOOD game? I've listed out and described what kills the quality of the game, based on points already brought up on what people were saying made it good and was intentional.
>But I like
>But people like it
Does not make it a good game. House of the Dead 2 is an incredibly shit game, piss poor voice acting, the music is alright, the game plays pretty good, the boss theme is definitely the most memorable thing from it, literally everyone can say they know it's a bad game but it's so bad that they enjoy it. I'm not shitting on people for liking Metroid 2, I myself like Metroid 2, but it's obvious that it is a bad game. It doesn't matter how many people like it, that isn't what makes it good. It's the weakest of all the installments of 2D Metroid.

Also, Popularity over the years? Don't make me laugh. Metroid 2 was pretty much dropped by the public after its release. It wasn't a popular game. It wasn't so highly talked about. It was well known by word of mouth alone not to buy it. It wasn't until opinions on youtube got sucked up by the masses that people decided to say Metroid 2 was good. Let me put it this way to help out as well, from a timeline point of view.

>Metroid 1 is released in '86
>Huge explosion, everyone loved it
>Metroid 2 comes out for the current hot portable Gameboy in '91
>Game didn't go over as well as it could have
>Game gets dropped, pretty much everyone knows not to buy it
>Super Metroid comes out in '94
>Metroid 2 gets forgotten completely
Not even kidding when I say I saw it in my local game shops back in the late 90's for $2, not to mention that price stayed that way until semi-recently when it shot up to roughly $15. For such a well liked and sought after game, it's still incredibly cheap.
Granted, Gameboy games are still pretty cheap, I haven't seen too many ridiculous prices on those games, aside from Pokemon, Resident Evil and Zelda prices.
People didn't go up to bat for this game until recently.

[Anonymous No.4292187]

>>4292120
Aye, you're right, my brain done gone and messed 'em facts up.

I feel the way you describe about the music in Ridley's lair. It's just repetitive and oppressing. Again, this kinda may have been intentional, but I don't really enjoy it.

[Anonymous No.4292192]

>>4292125
It's the first. That being said, I find it interesting that Mario literally says "It's-a-me, MAH-REE-OH" and yet tons of people says "MARE-EE-OH"

[Anonymous No.4292198]

>>4292157

I'm not that guy and this argument is really dumb and laborious and doesnt belong on /vr/, but the anti-violence thing isn't really hard to pick up. The music that plays during battles is big and brash and exciting but actually killing the colossus produces really sorrowful and solemn music. After every kill the main character starts to look more and more ill and graven like it's eating away at you. It all ends with the revelation that the killing you did was wrong, and not with you slaying one more villain but instead getting sealed away for what you did and what you've become. The actual heroes who save the world are not you, and don't even kill you in the process of saving it.

It's not a particularly strong story at all, but it's pretty easy to grasp the message of it. You spend the whole game being violent, but the prevailing message is anti-violence. You can call that a limitation of games as a medium or whatever you want to do, but it's pretty clear what message was intended.

As far as M2 goes, people really really like that game and I think they want to find some deeper meaning which isn't at all alluded to. Especially because even after it Samus doesn't have a lot of qualms about slaughtering everything

[Anonymous No.4292205]

>>4292167
In my opinion, when comparing Samus Returns to AM2R, SR is the more atmospheric game in terms of feeling spooky and having visual storytelling in the backgrounds. It's nowhere near the same kind of atmosphere as the original Metroid II but it definitely has a distinctive mood whereas AM2R was more upbeat and kind of a hodgepodge of environments. AM2R did some things better though like the ending and keeping the destroyed Chozo statue in the final area, but Samus Returns did other things better like preserving the sudden Metroid spike in a different way. I like both games a lot.

[Anonymous No.4292213]

>>4292185
The things you list that you thi k make it bad are either neutral or good to me. The exploration is awesome, it's creepy, there's lots to discover and fighting was fun.

We have different opinions. It's not the end of the world.

[Anonymous No.4292214]

>>4292198
Not part of that argument, but even in Super Metroid Samus isn't broken up about killing the Metroids.
Also seeing as Metroid is partially based on Alien, I don't think that Samus would ever have issues killing the Metroids, knowing that Ridley had no qualms about killing the Xenomorphs.

[Anonymous No.4292319]

>>4292116
>rented
> a gameboy game

[Anonymous No.4292331]

>>4292319
They let you rent GB/GBC games at my local Blockbuster for a while. Then one day I came back to return something and they told me to just keep it since they weren't stocking handheld games anymore. This is the only good thing that has ever happened to me in my entire life.

[Anonymous No.4292383]

>>4292176
And you don't get you can feel this way about Metal Slug or any other game?

See the last paragraph I write about the other guy I'm responding to as well.

>>4292198
How is this any different from the dudes that made Pokemon the movie saying it has an anti-violence movie, while as Ebert points out the entire movie glorifies violence.

SotC glorifies killing the Collosi, it's pretty much the entire point of the game and the only thing TO DO at all! And the whole point of the Pokemon movie is to see the creatures fight each other. So in both cases the creators say one thing but the game itself goes in the opposite direction.

You can claim you felt sad killing the Collosius but in the end you as the player went right on and killed the next one. You kept doing it till there was nothing left to kill. So your own actions would indicate you yourself liked the violence and didn't really respond to any supposed anti-violence claims. To actually go along with the message you would have to stop killing shit, which would give you nothing to do with the game, and you'd find another game to kill stuff in. So in the end even if there is an anti-violence message it was rejected by everyone that ever played the game in favor of pursuing more violence.

[Anonymous No.4292401]

>>4292383
Sure, I like metal slug as well.

Ebert's comments made perfect sense fir pokemon. SotC is a very different matter. I don't knw how someone could play though it and not get that.

[Anonymous No.4292418]

>>4292401
Point is after you 'got it' what did you do? Did you stop killing the Collosius? Or did you decide you would rather have more fun and stop killing them. In other didn't everyone who played it embrace the exact opposite of the message!! Doesn't the whole game really push for more violence? there isn't a thing to do if you decide to be non-violent except maybe look at the grace a little.

[Anonymous No.4292442]

>>4292418
Why are you overgeneralizing? Do you stop watching a movie once you realize it either glorifies or criticizes violence? By your logic, you are partaking in the act by not averting your eyes!

[Anonymous No.4292446]

>>4292418
Not him but SotC message isn't really received until AFTER you've been locked away for killing.

The first real life example of SotC I can think of is Malcom X. (Sort of, hear me out, it's not a perfect analogy.)

So Malcom X was completely fine with the Black Panthers killing white people. Malcom X himself killed many people. So he later becomes a pacifist. He starts telling people that violence is wrong, that he is sorry about things, he doesn't agree with other stuff, etc etc etc, but the point being, Malcom X started out killing people and by the end he went full on anti-violence. It wasn't until afterwards he realized what he did was wrong. SotC is the same. You go through the game killing the Collosi and then afterwards you understand what you did was bad and you go to prison. What's the message in both of these cases? Killing is wrong. How did we get to the message? Killing. The message still stands though and after all is said and done, only THEN do you understand. It's like a teaching tool. Or was meant to be.

[Anonymous No.4292451]

>>4292418
I like most kept playing despite that which makes the ending so impactfull.

[Anonymous No.4292452]

The same people that claim Majora's Mask and Zelda II: The Adventures of Link are the pinnacles of the franchise.

[Anonymous No.4292456]

>>4292418
You are a stupid brainlet and I really hope anons stop arguing with you because there is NO WAY your braincells could grasp any of what is being said to you

[Anonymous No.4292483]

>>4292451
I'd put that in the same category as the ending to Pokemon the movie. Everyone just dismisses the ending and what they really enjoyed was the violence.

Do you really think someone who plays SotC becomes a less violent person? In other words does the message do anything? Did we start making non-violent games after it?

>>4292442
The point is that no body fucking likes anti-violence messages, even the people that claim they do. However everyone loves violent messages. The message of almost 100% of games is that violence is how you solve problems. There's almost no games at all where you solve problems in non-violent ways, and when games do give people a choice the violent approach is always more popular. So people show by their choices they want violence.

To sum it up. The people that cotninued killing the Collosi/metroids/enemy in any video game like violence and reject anti-violence messages. The people that stopped killing them accepted the anti-violence message.

[Anonymous No.4292489]

>>4292456
Let me guess. You continued killing the Colossus and ignored the anti-violence message.

It's ok. I did too. We all did. Anti-violence is boring.

[Anonymous No.4292495]

>>4292456
Shhhh I find him funny.

[Anonymous No.4292498]

>>4292483
>I'd put that in the same category as the ending to Pokemon the movie

Then you really are stupid.

[Anonymous No.4292509]

>>4290989
>grim examination of the horrors of genocide that asserts a strong anti-violence message
> These people have been vocal opponents of the remakes, both the official and fanmade ones, for being "pro-violence" and "missing the point" of the original themes
> Any design documents about how you are supposed to feel guilty for killing the Metroids

Good lord, is this some kind of trend?

i can't wait to see games like Contra, Metal Slug or Serious Sam being overanalyzed by people saying they have deep anti-violence messages

[Anonymous No.4292519]

>>4292509
Contra and Metal Slug will be called 'parodies of military bravado' and they will insist that it was all sarcastic.

Serious Sam will became a deconstruction of masculinity.

[Anonymous No.4292525]

>>4290989
>Where the hell is this mindset coming from?

A generation of kids growing up with self important 80s and 90s music journalism, and using the same angles of attack on the entertainment medium of their time (games) because music is dead.
Only critical theory is utterly useless at getting to the heart of videogames, so all they end up doing is pushing Marxist nonsense and hating themselves.
"If only you could talk to these creatures, then perhaps you could try and make friends with them, form alliances... Now that would be interesting!"

[Anonymous No.4292570]

>a faux philosophical dissection of Metroid II

Where does OP get this shit? Are you paraphrasing some retarded thing an e-celeb told you?

[Anonymous No.4292580]

Metroid II is a great game, probably one of the top 5 on the original GB. I think what is said in OP is reading into it a bit too much, but a little of it might be there. Metroid has always been about exposition through "showing not telling". The baby Metroid is a strong turn in the game since it's essentially the one creature you didn't kill. But to say this game mirrors SotC is a huge stretch. The Metroids in this game are trying to murder you, there's nothing sorrowful when you take them out.

[Anonymous No.4292582]

>>4292525
People that think story and messages in games matter will eventually go down this path.

If your favorite game has dated or downright shitty mechanics you can always say it's story and message mean it's important!

[Anonymous No.4293187]

>>4292582
>>4292525
You could not possibly be more full of yourself.

[Anonymous No.4293192]

>>4293187
Let me guess you're someone that stories in game seriously?

[Anonymous No.4293302]

>>4293192
Rarely. Even when I theoretically might agree with you, you sound so mentally ill that ir comes out as raving nonsense.

[Anonymous No.4293332]

Assuming my understanding of Metroid's backstory is correct, I don't think there were any negative connotations to committing genocide against the metroid species.

Mother Brain is an artificial lifeform that was created by the chozo to protect sentient life. But somewhere down the line, she went rogue and decreed that the only way to "protect" sentient life was to wipe it out entirely to space it from any future suffering. To achieve this ends, she recruited the Space Pirates and had them seize metroids for their vast potential to cause mass destruction.

If the Federation had just sat back and played pacifist due to the moral implications of committing genocide against metroids, what would have been accomplished? The Space Pirates would have misused - and ultimately destroyed - the metroids to wipe out all life in the universe. So one way or another, the metroids were going to be victims of genocide. There was no sense in allowing the rest of the universe to be destroyed along with them.

Samus does show compassion at the end of the game, but that act of compassion turns around and bites her in the ass as the events of Super Metroid unfold. So what's the real moral of the story? It sure as hell isn't compassion.

[Anonymous No.4293567]

>>4293332
Lol

[Anonymous No.4293612]

>>4290989
That is what we call a stretch. If there was any moment that made the player feel bad for playing the game it is most likely the timing required for the space jump.

[Anonymous No.4293682]

>>4293302
You're replying to different postsers and assuming it's all one person.

>>4293332
The real 'moral' is whatever the game ultimatly glorifies and leads the player to. It's a pro-violence game because that's really what the game is about, solving problems by killing things. Even if the story or cutscene says something else, it's still a game where you kill shit to win and if the player ever started being non-violent they would discover they can't even play the game. Suppose every time you killed a Metroid Samus said it was bad? You'd still keep killing them because that's the point of the game. The cutscenes say one thing but the game says another.

Basically all games have pro-violence messages. You don't talk your way out of situations in games or get the bad guys to stop attacking by doing a sit-in. At best games are non-violent in the way Batman is, you still use violence but it's non-lethal violence. In the very rare cases when games do let you be a pacifist (Fall Out) it's the least popular play method.

tldr: all games have pro-violence messages. The cutscenes say one thing but the game's rules always say 'yes' to violence. Players respond positivly to pro-violence messages and think non-violence is boring.

[Anonymous No.4293765]

>>4292519
are you suggesting that serious sam is not a deconstruction of masculinity?

[Anonymous No.4293778]

>>4293765
I can't tell if this is ironic or not.

[Anonymous No.4294250]

>>4291674
b..but Tansack...alright, action game it is.

[Anonymous No.4294525]

>>4293682
Lol

[Anonymous No.4294595]

>>4291005
I was more into Sega and Sony as a kid and never had an snes.
I played Super Metroid recently and the music struck me as really weird and fucked up, and that the game was explicitly designed to be a horror game.
I haven't played Metroid I or II yet though.

[Anonymous No.4294621]

>>4294595
They're definitely made to be horror influenced. It's basically Nintendo's take on Alien.

[Anonymous No.4294648]

>>4291004
https://youtu.be/8WkEoYvlUF0?t=9m7s
Start watching from 9:07

[Anonymous No.4294725]

>>4290989
Do you have fucking eyes? What the FUCK do you think ending with the metroid baby represents? Why the fuck do you think they put it in?

First Metroid had a regular music that you'd expect in an adventure game, M2 has a discordant bloopy ambiance.

First game is a power fantasy with three bosses total where you mow down hordes of enemies, second is a weird game with a ton of smaller minibosses that will strain your resources to the max and some can be even unbeatable if you're not playing right and not finding missile tanks.

In Metroid 1, when you die, you just respawn at the start with all powerups intact and no loss except for time loss. In Metroid 2, the lower you get on health, you hear a speeding up, weird noise not unlike motion tracker from Aliens - and when you die, you're done. Better hope you saved your game often!


Game is designed to keep player on edge at least a little bit- world map is non-euclidean and doesn't make sense when mapped in 2D; in fact, that's the reason why game doesn't have a map, because it wouldn't make sense. It has the living metroid counter and puts in empty husks of Metroids before the bosses to build up anticipation until the boss battle punctuated with loud and discordant music - tension and release cycle is the bread and butter of horror games, and we can see some inklings of that idea here.

Like, it's not some amazing high art, but being a darker, creepier game that's trying to at least make you somewhat uncomfortable is kinda obvious if you have fucking eyes open.

Most likely they've done that because a) Metroid is heavily inspired by Alien, and b) big epic adventure wouldn't work on a GameBoy.

I swear to fuck, this is like baby entry level art analysis.

[Anonymous No.4294730]

>the reading too deep into video games meme has now infected retro too
RIP lads, it was good while it lasted

[Anonymous No.4294745]

>>4294730
You poor little baby.

[Anonymous No.4294747]

>>4294745
Yeah mate, you're right. Now I'm going to go enjoy some video games. Good bye.

[Anonymous No.4294761]

>>4294725
Actually, let me go on, there's even more stuff!

Game is intentionally obscure, cramped and claustrophobic. Pic for this post is a comparison - on the left, Metroid 2, and on the right - handful of other GB platformers. Notice how HUGE Samus sprite is, and that she's intentionally centered on the screen, rather than standing at the bottom, making even less of the world visible at once.

M2 likes to break its own rules to surprise the player, too.
Remember the husks before bosses I mentioned? At one point, a boss battle occurs without a husk to warn you, making you worry that there might be a Metroid in every next corridor.
More than that, one of the bosses, Arachnus, masquerades as an item and will attack you by surprise.

There are also some creepy environmental choices, like the Chozo statue holding Ice Beam being seemingly broken by Metroids (perhaps they knew it was the only thing that could kill them?), or the lack of enemies on lower levels (perhaps they got killed by Metroids?), or the fact that most of the world are creepy abandoned ruins.

Surprising amount of care goes into designing atmosphere, Metroid 2 has a lot of unique tiles that only show up in one area of the game, when compared to Metroid 1.

Hell, even in manual, story mentions that a research team was sent to SR388 and vanished - and the same happened to a search party they sent after them. Does this sounds like a cool badass power fantasy like Mario or something to you? Because to me, it sounds like it's trying to be closer to a horror movie.

Look, I could go on but it's pretty obvious that Metroid 2 team was trying to make a more unsettling, atmospheric and alien game than the last one. And they succeeded - and said dense, creepy atmosphere would become a trademark of the series.

[Anonymous No.4294780]

>>4294761
Oh, and last but not least - after you kill a boss in M1, you're perfectly fine because even if you die, nothing will be lost.
In M2, you have to make a tense backtracking trip to last save point while low on ammo and health - and if you die then, you have to start the boss all over again. And because game is entirely about fighting bosses, you will be doing that A LOT.

Also, enemies are redesigned so certain enemy type only drops certain pickups, which means you can't get health AND missiles from one grinding spot - and save points don't restore your health and ammo (this was changed in AM2R), only recharge stations do - and most of these are hidden and secret.

[Anonymous No.4294784]

>>4294747
I don't believe you really enjoy anything. Least of all games.

[Anonymous No.4294824]

>>4294780
>>4294761
>>4294725
Almost certain to fall of deaf ears because this was likely purely a troll thread right from the start but these are excellent posts about why Metroid 2 works so well.

[Anonymous No.4294984]

>>4294730

[Anonymous No.4296092]

Is there a way to play AMR2 on PSP?

[Anonymous No.4296112]

>>4290989
>Where the hell is this mindset coming from?
A bunch of idiots who overthink things about a children's game from the 90s

>Is there any truth to it whatsoever?
no

[Anonymous No.4296165]

>>4294725
>>4294761
>>4294780
You're right on all counts but you might want to calm down a little

[Anonymous No.4296271]

>>4296112
>trying this hard

[Anonymous No.4297001]

>>4294761
Am I alone thinking Metroid looks the best out of those games?

[Anonymous No.4297468]

>>4291053
I can't play this one because of how big Samus is yet how small the screen real estate is. I can't find my way because I can never see very far.

[Anonymous No.4297470]

>>4294761
Ohh I never understood this aspect. Now it makes sense finally.

[Anonymous No.4297639]

>>4297468
I tried playing it last night after reading the thread and was surprised. I expected everything to feel cramped and be bashing my head on th ceiling but actually it felt really open.

[Anonymous No.4297923]

>>4297468
Supermetroid is exactly the same in this aspect.

[Anonymous No.4297931]

>>4290989
What? No, whoever's thinking this is literally retarded. Back then it was just a cool robot (lady? if you were in on it) hunting space monsters. None of this nu-game journalism "wow this game expresses the horrors of british imperialism and the genociding of colonial cultures" shit.

[Anonymous No.4297934]

>>4291235
>Metroid is Metroidvania
>Metroid
Can you think about this for 2 seconds please?

[Anonymous No.4298198]

>>4291901
The way the metroid counter flips is obviously intended to feel menacing, and you're just being contrary.

[Anonymous No.4298209]

Yeah OP it was a commentary on racial injustice. Notice that Samus is always shown kneeling in the posters. She supports BLM.

[Anonymous No.4298262]

>>4297639
Yeah that guy is a little nuts. The whole game is designed around it's field of view. It works just fine. And keep playing, it's a good time!

[Anonymous No.4299627]

>Same reason that Ebert points out the entire violence message in the Pokemon movie is a joke because Ash and his friends solve all their problems by beating up other pokemon. Anyone who took the message seriously, including the children the movie was made for, are not very bright.

Who cares what Ebert think because its clear Ebert didn't think much or completely missed the entire point, since the whole "fighting" was bad message had more to do with the fact that Mewtwo was making them fight to the death instead of the friendly competitive nature Pokemon battles are.

[Anonymous No.4299670]

>>4291204
>Because that essay she wrote is like leagues better than any shit post you'll ever write in your life

Oh really?

>Too often games are about endless pleasure loops—the moment we’re frustrated or confused, we’re taught to see this as a flaw because videogame tastemakers of yore sold us the toxic myth that fun is paramount.

>It occurred to me then and later on, when I kept killing for energy and missiles, that the Metroid series’ insistence that players be awarded with items and health pickups for murdering things was an unfortunate leftover from, perhaps, The Legend of Zelda. Enemies sure as hell don’t drop anything when you kill them in Super Mario Bros.—it leaves the game world feeling emptier. (Killing enemies in Super Mario Bros. makes an area feel safer, too, which is uneasy to think about.)

>This is the first and last moment in the Metroid series wherein Samus has a companion who follows her. It was a stroke of brilliance to be ignored in Metroid II’s sequels for the sake of appealing to a wider audience with pleasantly crafted murder mazes. A love letter to the future that no one read.

These interpretations and writing style sound like they came from some elitist academic and I have read too much of that. This is also the first time I've ever seen them take this type of interpretation of Metroid 2. Who wrote this?

>I first played Metroid II: Return of Samus in the women’s wing of a homeless shelter in Providence, Rhode Island. There I endured five months of homelessness; the rest of the time was spent on streets or in psychiatric wards. I screamed a lot and frequently lost my mind. It wasn’t the first time I’d been homeless or nearly died, and it won’t be the last.

Yeah that explains it. Great essay.

[Anonymous No.4299770]

>>4299670
>some elitist academic
Dem dern 'litists wit der darn book lernin'!

[Anonymous No.4299809]

>>4290989
You can over examine anything, build a head cannon and get other simple minded folks to follow easily.

Like how there's still people out there who not only believe that metal gear solid 2 was bad intentionally as a form of art, but people who think that its brilliant and actually a great game. It all started when some retard claimed mgs2 had postmodernist elements and over examined a million things kojima probably thought up on the toilet. The sad reality is that its a really badly designed, rushed game with a few fun parts now and then, and the plot is nonsense. There is and never will be anything more to it than that. Kojima himself has even said that videogames are not art for god sakes. But people love their head cannon.

Same idea with metroid 2. The creator of the game just wanted to push the GBs hardware and make a good sequel. He did it, more or less.
But then some moron noticed a few things,made up his own story and spread it to other morons. The end.

End of the day, metroid 2 is just a game. If you get more out of it than that, fine, but it's YOU who is making all that shit up.

[Anonymous No.4299813]

Maybe this guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WkEoYvlUF0

[Anonymous No.4299825]

>>4299809
>But people love their head cannon

[Anonymous No.4300118]

>>4299809
You will never stop being hilarious.

[Anonymous No.4300145]

>>4291901
when I first played Metroid 1 I felt powerless and uncomfortable most of the way through. I don't thnk the series was ever meant to be a power trip

[Anonymous No.4300291]

>>4299770
Wow, S.R Horriwellt, is that you? You're right, I should be more upfront, this interpretation of a game comes from batshit insane histrionic leftist, she writes like a batshit insane histrionic leftist in academia, which is why she says batshit histrionic leftist things like "fun is toxic" "killing enemies in video game is genocide". The same type of retards that produced anti-white retards like Edward Said. You gonna act like his writings on "orientalism" are worthwhile? They aren't, they're garbage. And so is this, using tons of new vocabulary words does not mask this. So pardon me if I don't take you or your interpretation of this game seriously. Now go back to denying race and IQ.

[Anonymous No.4300297]

>>4300118
Piss off and go back to bitching on twitter that some fag on youtube stole your idea.

[Anonymous No.4300350]

>>4299770
It reads like leftism, like Edward Said "Orientalism". So yeah, this essay is bullshit and so is the interpretation of this game. So no surprise a histrionic women who apparently didn't get the help she needed would write absurd things like "fun is toxic" "killing enemies in video games is genocide", and extremely varied vocabulary to mask a point that isn't very interesting.

This article blows, it doesn't even persuade me.

[Anonymous No.4300354]

>>4300297

[Anonymous No.4300361]

>>4300350
>it's on the wrong side of the political specturm so I dismiss it immediately

Partisan politics have ruined the minds youth. You people look at everything like sports teams, it's bizarre.

[Anonymous No.4301396]

>>4300145
The point is progression. You start out as a pansy and end up able to kill any enemy by jumping.

[Anonymous No.4301505]

>>4292452
Zelda 2 no, but I don't honestly Majora's Mask is the only entry that stuck with me. Wind Waker would have been great if it were finished, and TP could have been great but fucked up a lot in minor areas, I haven't played any since TP.

[Anonymous No.4301948]

>>4301505
Ww is the only zelda game I ever liked.

[Anonymous No.4302243]

>>4290989
>Where the hell is this mindset coming from?
I don't know about the last year, but I can tell you that Mark Brown video from last week has completely dominated all M:SR threads, where he says it missed the point of M2.

[Anonymous No.4302548]

>>4302243
I was disappointed, all this talk has me in the mood to replay it and a remake sounded cool but wow it looks like crap. The fan one looks way better but I don't like playing on a laptop.

[Anonymous No.4303256]

>>4302548
The remake is really good though. It may miss the spirit of the original, but its still great on its own terms.

[Anonymous No.4303286]

>>4302243
Metroid is one of those franchises that has great games and repulsive fandoms. There are many that are worse, of course, I'm just mentioning that Metroid fans are in this category.

[Anonymous No.4303345]

>>4303286
That is such a weird thought to even have.

[Anonymous No.4303436]

Are psuedointellectual video game """"critical analysts"""" the new angry reviewers?

[Anonymous No.4303440]

>>4291265
>>4291270
I've always been partial to the term "platform adventure" but that sounds kinda vague.

[Anonymous No.4305383]

>>4303436
Nah, they're playing games and thinking about then then writing about what they conclude. You're the only one that sounds angry.

[Anonymous No.4305410]

>>4305383
No, I'm referring to "angry reviewers" as in the YouTube trend from the late 00s, and referring to pseuds "analyzing" games as the new YT trend

[Anonymous No.4305417]

>>4305410
Huh. I don't really watch youtube reviews of anything, but you sure sound pretty pissy.

[Anonymous No.4305420]

>>4291265
>>4303440

It's simply an action-adventure game. There's no need for further categorization. What classifies as a "Metroidvania" isn't actually distinct from typical action-adventure fare at all, except that the label goes on to encompass action RPGs like SotN as well.

[Anonymous No.4305447]

real metroid fans thought Metroid II was the weakest of the cannon before other M came out.

[Anonymous No.4306315]

>>4290989
Metroid is becoming the hipster game of choice. Zelda is too common for GIRL GAMER types so they need another special snowflake game. Gameboy metroid fits the bill perfectly.

[Anonymous No.4306318]

>>4300361
No. We look at a video game article and go "why the fuck is she throwing a pity party?" I don't give a fuck that she's a nutbag, so fucked up that she ended up homeless. It's utterly worthless information to me.

Why would any one want to read articles like this? The other guy is right about the leftism. It's the politics of being the victim and wanting sympathy. She's hijacking her own article to say "woe is me, please save me from myself".

Our response is "Fuck you whore, I'm going to play Metroid". Where as yours is "oh, so deep, so insightful, poor lady".

[Anonymous No.4306327]

>>4306318
Leave leftism out of it, that article is trash either way.