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4277452 No.4277452 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]

When are PC elitists going to admit that Goldeneye and Perfect Dark aren't bad games?

>> No.4277458

>sub-20fps
>shit controls
>horrible graphics
>boring level design

never

>> No.4277550

Playing them emulated at 60fps and with the mouse injector makes them actually pretty good
If only there was similar mouse support for timesplitters...

>> No.4277551

Doesn't matter how good it is if it runs at like 17fps its pure garbage

>> No.4277574

>>4277452
2/10
You're trying too hard.

>> No.4277576

>>4277550
So turning them into PC games makes them not quite horrible anymore... Okay.

>> No.4277581

>m-muh first person shooters
>i really like the color gray
>muh science fiction
>muh crpgs, you can choose which column on the menu screen has a higher number you know, it's called character customization you weeb
Truly, is there a more pitiable creature than the PC elitist?

>> No.4277585

>shooters on consoles
The problem started at the very origin. Also doesn't Perfect Dark run at atrociously bad FPS?

>> No.4277593

>>4277581
You're taking the cake right now you big baby.

>> No.4277595

>>4277452
Well they arn't bad games they are mediocre games. PD is however a full order of rank better just because the environmental textures were so much better than GE

Here's the real list of reasons they are not all that great

>multiplayer is done in split screen which gives everyone this really aweful micro-view
>both single and multiplayer player gives us very slow character movement, auto aiming, and controls that do not allow for much manual aiming. So both moving and shooting are weak, while all PC games are good in at least one of those areas.

>> No.4277603

>>4277581
>m-muh platformers
>i really like flashy colours, because it reminds me of cartoons and appeals to my manchild sensibilities
>muh wacky drug-inspired themes
>muh jrpgs, you can choose which waifu you want to jack off to later on exhentai, it's called character development you normie
Truly, is there a more pitiable creature than the consolefag?

>> No.4277610

>>4277595
So textures are what's important now?

>> No.4277612

>>4277603
lol you didn't even succeed in making consoles and JRPGs sound bad, except that you threw the word "manchild" in there. You insinuated that they're associated with drugs and masturbation. You know what two things are really fun that lots of people love to do? Drugs and masturbation.

>> No.4277616

>>4277550
This.

Else >>4277458 make's it totally unplayable.

>> No.4277621

>>4277452
As fps games on a console in the 90's went they were about as good as it got. They don't hold a candle to pc games of the type but if it's what you had they wete certainly worth it.

>> No.4277624

>>4277616
So yeah, decent once you make them into pc games

>> No.4277626

>>4277612
Spotted the kissless anime-watching basement-dwelling degenerate.

Stop stealing my oxygen and kill yourself asap.

>> No.4277631

>>4277452

there are people that took time making an emulator, dumping the .roms and programing proper controls for them, so I'd say there is nothing to admit, is implicit

>> No.4277645

These kind of threads are a great way to see who's a real gamer and who isn't. Fact: if you can't handle Perfect Dark's framerate, you are a casual and a faggot. It's perfectly playable 99% of the time and only becomes unplayable if you do something retarded like play multiplayer with 8 bots and set the weapons to nothing but explosives. I have never been playing this awesome game and though to myself "Oh man, my experience is being ruined by this framerate right now". It makes me wonder how fucking shit you must be to actually say that to yourself.

If framerate is a dealbreaker, get yourself the 60fps XBLA version. For me, I have no trouble sniping your head off on the N64 original. Either way you prefer, it still remains one of the best first person shooters ever made.

>> No.4277658

>>4277612
Well, to be fair, you didn't make the PC Elitist sound all that bad either.

>> No.4277660
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4277660

>>4277645

I don't remember the framerate being that bad either, to be honest. Occasionally I'd notice it (never in single player), but it was always brief...

I thought I was going insane the first time I heard someone bitch about framerate drops in OOT.

>> No.4277695

>>4277631
Even if proper controls need to be programmed for them?

>> No.4277703

>>4277645
When I've been playing fps games at 60 fps already what is my incentive to play one at that low a frame rate with a poor control scheme?

I can understand it being good enough if it's all you had access to, but otherwise there's little point.

>> No.4277710
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4277710

>>4277645
>this whole post

>> No.4277731

>>4277452
PC elitist here

Games where fucking awesome, same with the Turok games. Which is why i purchased the remasters for PC. And if a perfect dark remaster ever comes. you bet your fucking ass im gonna buy it too.

IDGAF about framerates on older games. But then again, im not autistic.

>> No.4277738

>>4277731
>PC elitist
>doesn't care or know about frame rates

Hi OP, nice try.

>> No.4277746

>>4277731
Turok on PC runs at a consistent 60fps. The difference between the original and the remaster is night and day.

>> No.4277751

>>4277626
>on the most autistic board next to /mlp/ and /toy/
>has the audacity to post shit like this

>> No.4277754
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4277754

>>4277703
>When I've been playing fps games at 60 fps already what is my incentive to play one at that low a frame rate with a poor control scheme?
You tell me.

>> No.4277758

>>4277746
doesn't mean the games where shit when they first came out. I loved the games as a kid and bought them for pc as a sign of support, not because of the improvements.

>> No.4277761

>>4277452
When they finally get laid aka never ever.

>> No.4277765

>>4277754
How is that a response and what is that meant to imply? PC got tons of shit games too.

>>4277758
They were fine if all you had were consoles

>> No.4277768

>>4277765
>How is that a response and what is that meant to imply?
Deus Ex is one of the greatest RPGs ever released. It ran like shit on PCs back in the day. Its controls were weird. The irony, though, is that there's nothing wrong with PD's controls and they're in fact extremely streamlined and fluid.

>> No.4277769

>>4277758
The improvements make it REALLY hard to go back and play the originals again. I literally could not play Turok 1 on N64 after playing it on PC. It feels like playing the game in slow motion. The PC version feels as fast as a game like Quake.

>> No.4277771

>>4277746
The Turok remasters have some disagreeable design changes. In particular, the new Turok 2 flashlight is fucking awful and looks nothing like the old version, which was blue.

>> No.4277783

>>4277768
So my incentive to play an fps with a bad framerate would be because it's a good rpg? Sorry I'm not really following where you're going with that.

>> No.4277784

>>4277783
Deus Ex is an FPS/RPG. You.. have played it, right? It's often voted the 1# PC game (that also happens to be on PS2) ever made?

>> No.4277794

>>4277610
It's way PD is better than Golden eye. Chicago was a hell of a lot more interesting than say Facility.

I outlined why both the games are only mediocre at best compared to PC games in my previous post.

>> No.4277795

>>4277754
NOT RETRO! NOT RETRO!

MODS!!!!!!!!!

>> No.4277805

>>4277595
>>multiplayer is done in split screen which gives everyone this really aweful micro-view
Multiplayer in GE was literally thrown together in 6 weeks. MP is a nice bonus, not something that is actually important to the FPS genre.
>>both single and multiplayer player gives us very slow character movement
Nothing wrong with that.
>auto aiming
Which is pretty much non-existent on Perfect Agent and optional anyway
>and controls that do not allow for much manual aiming.
Which is untrue. Move with C-buttons, aim with stick. There's a reason GE/PD map very easily to mouse and keyboard.
>So both moving and shooting are weak, while all PC games are good in at least one of those areas.
No, no they are not. Many PC FPS games had absolutely shit shooting and hit reactions, particularly anything based on the Quake engine.

>> No.4277841

>>4277805
> not something that is actually important to the FPS genre
VS modes are VERY importaint to the FPS genre. It's so important there are FPS games that have no single player mode at all. For instance Unreal Tournament.

The post wants to compare PD and GE to PC gaming. That means the vs mode must be compared to Unreal Tournament which smokes the games.

>moving and shooting
These are the defining characteristics of an FPS's combat, it's basically combat itself. If the game is weak in both of them the combat sucks. The aiming aspect in PD is weak, weaker than just about any PC game ever made except for extremely early one's like Doom (which makes up for it by having fantastic movement).

This is why it is so easy to say that GE and GE have shitty single player compared to the PC games. You can build a case for the mission objectives being good so they are not bad games. However with such weak combat they cannot be said to be great games. These are mediocre games.

>> No.4277847

>>4277595
Multiplayer was shit unless you played with people who owned the game, or else they would get bored before learning the shit controls.

>> No.4277849

>>4277841
>The aiming aspect in PD is weak
How, exactly?
>VS modes are VERY importaint to the FPS genre. It's so important there are FPS games that have no single player mode at all. For instance Unreal Tournament.
That doesn't make MP important.

>> No.4277850

>>4277841
Come to think of it even Doom and Wolfenstein have more demanding aiming than GE and PD. These games only auto aim in the vertical plane and you must manually the horizontal one.

So basically the entire PC library has better shooting.

>> No.4277853

>>4277841
>This is why it is so easy to say that GE and GE have shitty single player compared to the PC games. You can build a case for the mission objectives being good so they are not bad games. However with such weak combat they cannot be said to be great games. These are mediocre games.
How the fuck is Perfect Dark's combat "weak"? Half-Life has weak combat. Quake has weak combat. Perfect Dark has absolutely sublime weapon design, sound design, and hit feedback.

>> No.4277859

>>4277850
>Come to think of it even Doom and Wolfenstein have more demanding aiming than GE and PD. These games only auto aim in the vertical plane and you must manually the horizontal one.
Have... Have you ever actually played Perfect Dark? On Perfect Agent? What "auto aim" are you talking about?

>> No.4277875

>>4277849
>That doesn't make MP important.
This thread is about comparing the games to PC FPS. So you have to compare both the multiplayer and campaign.

So the campaign would be compared to campaigns of PC FPs and the VS in compared to the VS of PC FPS.

How hard is that to understand?

>How, exactly?
Lots of auto-aiming, which basically removes the entire aspect from the player.

Even if you disable auto-aiming you're still stuck with aiming with the c-buttons or an analog stick. With a mouse you can aim anywhere you want whenever you want while the analog stick and c-button have delays.

With an analog stick if you set the aim sensitivity high you can't do prescise aiming well, if you set it low you can't make big sweeping motions, if you set in the middle you can do both weakly. With a proper mouse you can make any motion as preciously as you want.

So the game needs to be designed around slow, imprescise aiming. Even if you give it mouse support with an emulator it doesn't solve anything because the levels, enemy formation, and ai them self were designed around the weak aiming. This is the reason that by and large console is going to be inferior for FPS games. Aiming requires a mouse to reach it's full potential as a game mechanic. And than you'd need to populate the game with fast, aggressive enemies that require this presciouse tool. Think of the security drones in HL2 for instance, the enemy is small, difficult to hit and unpredictable. It's an intense encounter designed for a mouth. While the GE and PD guards are slow, immobile targets designed for a controller.

>> No.4277882

>>4277853
Did you even read what I said or did you just skim around?

You arn't addressing the movement and aiming at all. Those are much more importaint than 'sound design'. They are the defining traits of FPS combat

>>4277859
See this post >>4277875 the parts that starts ...Even if you disable auto-aiming for your answer

>> No.4278024

>>4277784
Ahh I see, no I haven't, at least not more than a few minutes. Like Half Life it never interested me. I like and was talking about arena and vs shooters where framerate is very important.

If you're talking just single player or rpg/fps hybrids then it's not as big a deal. I see no point in goldeneye multiplayer unless there was no other option though. That's for sure.

>> No.4278026

>>4277805
>MP is a nice bonus, not something that is actually important to the FPS genre.

I disagree with this 100% Multiplayer is where the genre really shines.

>> No.4278037

>>4277751
>tfw you main /vr/, /toy/, and /sci/

>> No.4278049

>>4277875
>Even if you disable auto-aiming you're still stuck with aiming with the c-buttons or an analog stick. With a mouse you can aim anywhere you want whenever you want while the analog stick and c-button have delays.
You're basically arguing that no FPS game designed for a console, ever can be as "good" as an FPS game designed for a PC.
>Even if you give it mouse support with an emulator it doesn't solve anything because the levels, enemy formation, and ai them self were designed around the weak aiming.
The game plays beautifully with a mouse and keyboard. What on earth are you talking about?
>Aiming requires a mouse to reach it's full potential as a game mechanic. And than you'd need to populate the game with fast, aggressive enemies that require this presciouse tool. Think of the security drones in HL2 for instance, the enemy is small, difficult to hit and unpredictable.
This is a poor example because literally everything about HL2's combat is absolute horse shit. It's a fundamentally poorly designed FPS game that feels bad to play.
>It's an intense encounter designed for a mouth.
Also HL2 was on Xbox.
>While the GE and PD guards are slow, immobile targets designed for a controller.
You seem to be forgetting that GE and PD are not strictly speaking about shooting. The challenge of these games does not come from shooting enemies. Perfect Dark is a game where speedrunners spend most of their time dodging and disarming enemies instead of shooting them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX_QoNfCNKY

This is what's so baffling when people talk about how PC games from the 90s were supposedly better that something like GE or PD. PC FPS games were super twitchy and your entire means of interacting with the environment was shooting things. Some people might like that, but GE/PD are a much more sophisticated breed of FPS that is to FPS what Hitman is to TPS. It's not about shooting people.

>> No.4278059

>>4278026
Cooperative MP maybe. Competitive MP is a cancer.

>> No.4278075

>>4278049
>You're basically arguing that no FPS game designed for a console, ever can be as "good" as an FPS game designed for a PC.

You're starting to sound that you really suck at abstract thinking. The overwhelming majority of good FPS are PC games and it will always be that presciously because the interface of a PC has more potential, a console may have good ones or medicore ones but never as many because it's quit literally an inferior development platform.

>HL2
You have not described a single reason why the shooting in HL2 is better than PD or GE. You compare games by actually discussing their points instead of spewing out insults, which is what you did. As you have not presented a single counter point. You'd have to demonstrate why the shooting and moving in HL2 is inferior to what's in PD or GE.

You also mentioned the Xbox port of HL2. Do you actually think that port is better? If it's inferior that's a point in favor of the PC platform, not against it. I'm not even sure why you brought it up.

>You seem to be forgetting that GE and PD are not strictly speaking about shooting. The challenge of these games does not come from shooting enemies.

I've made the case that an FPS is about shooting and moving. Bringing up speed running is a really stupid arguement because they do not play the game in a normal fashion. It's almost like you just say the first dumb thing that pops into your head and don't even check to see if it presents a counter point.

When people play GE and PD they are not speed running it. They are moving and shooting, very rarely avoiding enemies or disarming them. Movement and shooting is what defines an FPS's combat, so if both suck the combat cannot be said to be very good.

I also notice no one has bothered defending that the movement sucks in PE and GE when I mentioned it, probably because it's true. It's worst than just about any PC FPS in history.

>> No.4278097

'Bad'? No.

But while they may have been revolutionary for consoles at the time, even looking past the frameate, graphics, and inherent console control issues, there was nothing unbelievable going on.

By 1997, what amazed console gamers of the time was already routine for PC players - a pattern that persisted for years and only ended recently.

They're truly exceptional console games, but comparing them to PC games of the same time, they're not nearly so special.

>> No.4278112

>>4278075
>The overwhelming majority of good FPS are PC games
Citation needed.
>You'd have to demonstrate why the shooting and moving in HL2 is inferior to what's in PD or GE.
That's really not hard. Half-Life 2's problem is that everything is a bullet sponge, enemies have barely existent hit reactions, and enemies shoot while moving, which turns every combat encounter into a war of attrition. It's basically impossible to engage in combat in HL2 without getting hit. You shoot at the bullet sponge enemies hoping they'll die before you do. Then you smash some grates for health. That's pretty much the entire gameplay loop.
>Bringing up speed running is a really stupid arguement because they do not play the game in a normal fashion.
Normal fashion? GE/PD are built entirely around completing each level as quickly as possible. That's the core gameplay loop. The player is rewarded for doing this with unlockable cheats. The point of playing these games is to complete the same level over and over and over until you can do it in your sleep. It's a trial and error perfectionist approach to FPS design where the player has to learn the rules of each miniature sandbox.
>I also notice no one has bothered defending that the movement sucks in PE and GE when I mentioned it, probably because it's true. It's worst than just about any PC FPS in history.
Nobody mentioned it because nobody has any idea what you're talking about. What is wrong with the movement in GE/PD?

>>4278097
Name a single PC FPS game released before GE that featured realistic environments where the player was tasked with completing a series of objectives.

>By 1997, what amazed console gamers of the time was already routine for PC players
Routine how? I grew up playing PC FPS games, and they were kinda shit. Everything was stiff and twitchy and all you did was run around shooting unresponsive enemies and collecting keys.

>> No.4278126

>>4278075
I really don't think you understand the subgenre Perfect Dark and Goldeneye occupy. DESU. They play nothing like anything else that was available on consoles or PC at the time, and even to this day, nobody on consoles or PC has managed to reproduce their formula. GoldenEye was the product of a British team, most of whom had never worked on a game before, looking at Doom and Virtua Cop and Mario 64 and creating their own very unique mixture. Comparing PC FPS games of the time to GE/PD is like comparing Crash Bandicoot to Mario 64. There's an entirely different design ethos behind them. Unless you understand that, you'll end up missing the point entirely.

>> No.4278130

>>4278112
>That's really not hard.
Appearently it is. Or maybe it's the reading thing that's hard for you or maybe the whole critical thinking. You have not said a single reason why the moving and shooting (aka the sum of combat) in GE or PD is BETTER than the stuff on the PC. The idea of actually comparing two things seems to totally escape you, which require using that critical thinking you are struggling with. The idea isn't to pick a PC game that I name dropped and try to nitpick it and whine but to say why PD and GE are better, by actually comparing them.

But you also seem to show you don't even have fucking clue what the core aspects of any FPS are when you say crap like this...


>GE/PD are built entirely around completing each level as quickly as possible. That's the core gameplay loop. The player is rewarded for doing this with unlockable cheats

The player can completly ignore these cheat codes even exist and still experience every single level in the game. And that's your idea of a "core gameplay"? Try ignoring that moving and shooting exist and see how much of the game you can experience! That shows what the real "core gamplay" is and that the time-trials are an utterly insignificant aspect that the a few people obsess over.

Seriously dude what do you think the S in FPS stands for? The core mechanic is right there in the fucking name and you're trying to say that it's not the defining characteristic of the genre!!

I think you've basically self-admitted that you're retarded by this point.

>>4278097
This guy says it perfect.

>> No.4278134

PC shooters factually control better and there have been way better releases on PC, but anyone who legitimately thinks they're bad games are dumb retards desu

>> No.4278135

>>4278126
I'm willing to entertain this point. Could you elaborate how PD and GE are different subgenres? I really don't see it at all, all of the mechanics are in many other FPS.

>> No.4278142

>>4278059
On what basis do you call it "cancer"?

>> No.4278145

>>4278130
>You have not said a single reason why the moving and shooting (aka the sum of combat) in GE or PD is BETTER than the stuff on the PC.
Excellent hit reactions. Great gun design. Excellent weapon sound design. When you fire a gun, it feels good. When you wing an enemy, there is an immediate and visceral reaction. There's nothing much to say about GE/PD's movement except that it's very precise and moving diagonally dramatically increases speed, which is one of the defining traits of that engine that the XBLA remaster goofed up. Also, Rareware made the right call removing jumping. They felt jumping in FPS looked stupid, and they were largely right.

>The player can completly ignore these cheat codes even exist and still experience every single level in the game.
Every single level of the game ranks the player on their performance, including time. The game encourages players to play the same level over and over, and improve their performance. This is aided by how higher difficulties increase the complexity of the mission. So you can finish a mission on Agent, and then on Secret Agent and then on Perfect Agent, and get a different experience each time. Plus it is basically impossible to complete many Perfect Dark missions on the first try. You have to explore each level and experiment. This naturally lends itself to speed running because the game naturally teaches you those skills and actively encourages you to develop them.
>Seriously dude what do you think the S in FPS stands for?
Genre purism is bullshit. GoldenEye's lead developer had a distaste for guns and violence in general. Perfect Dark took a different tact, but there's a distinctly unpleasant tone to everything. The enemies are largely depicted as being hard working security guards and soldiers just doing their job, and they beg for mercy and ask, "Why me?" on a regular basis. PD is inherently designed to make you feel bad about shooting people, but with incredibly good feeling shooting mechanics.

>> No.4278148

>>4278097
This guy puts it very well.

>> No.4278150

>>4278142
It bought a sportslike competitive culture into the FPS genre. Look at what competitive MP does to games. I'm old enough to remember when Call of Duty games didn't have a fucking awful multiplayer fanbase hung around their neck like a rotting goose. Competitive MP attracts and encourages a horrible culture.

>> No.4278158

>>4278150
I guess we just see things differently then. Doom and then Quake and Unreal multiplayer is by far how I akways liked the genre best. You're basically calling me and what I like horrible and cancer because I like competition?

>> No.4278159

>>4278158
>You're basically calling me and what I like horrible and cancer because I like competition?
Pretty much. It's a similar culture to people who like and play football, which is equally awful.

>> No.4278161

>>4278159
Oookay then....

>> No.4278175

>>4278145
I really don't see the gun play as more than average. Half Life 2's guns were a lot more engaging, partially because they had recoil and because you could control them smoothly with a mouse. Landing a headshot with the revolver felt great because it was difficult to pull off, stuff like that just won't happen on a console game. The enemies are basically immobile and engaged at very close range, there isn't a great deal of skill to the aiming. The explosions happened without lagging the game too. Not to mention that the low frame rate on PD/GE really kills the sense of smoothness. All of that puts the gun performance below the really cool guns on the PC like Unreal or HL2.

Than there's the gravity gun. People had fun just goofing around with it and it opened up combat options never before seen in an FPS.

The guard reactions in PE/GE were good. And PD had some very imaginative scifi guns like the labtop gun, the skedar weapons, and the hilarious pinball grenade. That also deserves mentioning. PD definitely had far superior guns to GE (especially in regards to having real reload animations)

The shooting is not BAD but it's still limited because it's on a console.

>speed running and scoring autism

You can replay ANY game and "improve your performance" and come up with just about any metric for performance: clear time, accuracy, low enemy kill count, fewest bullets used, how many times you do "an press".

These are not core parts of the game at all because they can be ignored so easily. Imagine if GE/PD had the codes accessed by console commands. Or if they made it not keep track of time at all. It would still be basically the same game. But if you were to tweak how movement worked or how shooting worked it would affect it massively. Not only that but if you changed how moving and shooting worked you could also change the entire enemy and level lay out to better work with the new changes.

>> No.4278178

>>4278135
The core design both share is that the player is placed in a small sandbox environment, given a list of objectives with a short briefing on each objective, and they are then tasked with figuring out how to accomplish that. They are told WHAT to do. They're not told HOW to do it. Missions are complex enough that they can take a good 30-90 minutes to complete on the first attempt, but designed in a way that a speedrunner can complete them in 2-3 minutes.

PD is a significantly better game that refines the basic formula of GE by removing stuff like infinitely spawning enemies, and completely eliminating the "shooting gallery" feel that GE had sometimes because it was a rail shooter for a significant part of its development.

A stark contast to save-scumming prone contemporaries at the time in that when the shit hits the fan, the player is forced to adapt and keep going. In Perfect Dark, you can sometimes fail objectives but still succeed because the developers included a hidden secondary way to complete the objective.

The only games that really resemble GE/PD are TimeSplitters 2, the Hitman series, and Dishonored. But none of them are quite the same, particularly when it comes to PD's enhancements. TS2 largely plays like GE, not PD, unfortunately.

>> No.4278180

>>4277452
N64 was one of the best consoles ever for FPSes. Pretty much the only way for a better FPS experience is to play on PC.

>> No.4278182

>>4278126
So they're secretly great because they're nothing like other games if the genre? Are you for real?

>> No.4278185

>>4278175
Perfect Dark has a 60fps 1080p Xbox port, in case you've forgotten.

>>4278182
They're great in a way some people don't understand because they use the wrong frame of reference. They're like Uncharted fans complaining that Hitman is too slow and confusing.

>> No.4278187

>>4278150
>>4278159
Not him but are you OP? Is this why you don't care about framerate or precise controls, you only care about single player?

>> No.4278191

>>4278185
So in what frame of reference are they great?

>> No.4278192

>>4278175
>Not only that but if you changed how moving and shooting worked you could also change the entire enemy and level lay out to better work with the new changes.
Rareware never, ever designed levels with gameplay in mind. They designed architecturally sound spaces, and then placed objectives in them. They created huge side areas which went unused simply because. Like the Pond Punk club in Chicago.

>> No.4278195

>>4278191
The Hitman series.

>> No.4278202

>>4278178
The objective system is a definitely very refined compare to what was happening on the PC and they definitely deserve some praise for that. I do not see this as a subgenre but a super improvement to something that already exists. You had 'objectives' to find switches, keycards and buttons in doom, half life, quake, and unreal. None of them were as sophisticated as GE or PD though.

However the weak shooting and very limited movement still needs to be considered.

If I were to give a score to the games
GE would get a 2-3/5
PD would get a 3-4/5

Not only did PD have better level and mission design but the environments were a hell of a lot better and the shooting did improve a little with the addition of secondary fires and more interesting gun design

>> No.4278206

>>4278192
Let me give an example.

Suppose GE or PD were given smooth proper aiming like with a mouse and smoother movement, no waiting 4 seconds to do a 180.

Now you can change the guard ai so that they react faster since the player can now aim better. Perhaps give them ai or spawn in them in areas where they can flank better, since the player can now shift his position and aim instantly.

I have no objection to the 'architecturaly sound' level design.

>> No.4278209

>>4278195
So you have no real answer and can't even really articulate what's so great? Makes sense.

>> No.4278215

>>4278206
>Now you can change the guard ai so that they react faster since the player can now aim better.
PD has a Perfect Dark difficulty setting which has AI health, damage, and reaction speed sliders. GE has its own version, which is slightly different.
>Perhaps give them ai or spawn in them in areas where they can flank better, since the player can now shift his position and aim instantly.
Perfect Dark isn't that sort of game, though. You die in a few hits, there are no health pickups, and some enemies, particularly ones with K7 Avengers, can kill you with a single burst of fire. That's what Counter-Op mode is all about. (For those who don't know, Player 2 controls random NPCs and tries to stop Player 1.) NPCs might only have a tiny bit of health, but there are way more of them. Eventually the player will slip up and catch a bullet.

>> No.4278219

A lot of suggested "improvements" for Perfect Dark and GoldenEye basically consist of making the AI super fast and super aggressive and basically royally fucking up non-lethal combat and the player's ability to dodge all incoming fire through effective strafing. Those two things are absolutely integral to what made the game great. PD is all about crowd control and toying with enemies. You can't do that if they react instantly and don't allow you to run circles around them.

>> No.4278225

>>4278215
The shield items were basically that game's health pick ups. I can't remember but I think every single level had at least 1 and a few of them had 2. No One Lives Forever was very similar to PD and GE in health and level design and that one turned out ok.

> the player's ability to dodge all incoming fire through effective strafing.
You'd have to also give the player better movement. For instance a walk mode and a run mode. Alternatively you could just make it the sort of game where you MUST shoot the enemy in the head before you eat their shots.

The way you make a really intense game is to give the player really solid controls and a lot of power than you make his opposition an appropriate match.

>non-lethal combat
Did you mean the disarming? It wasn't a big part of the game. I suppose if you improved controls so that you could instantly switch to unarmed (giving it a hotkey like the crowbar in HL2 had), you might even use it more.

>> No.4278253

>>4278225
>The shield items were basically that game's health pick ups.
In coop when one player dies, the other player's health is slashed in half and shared between the two players.
>No One Lives Forever was very similar to PD and GE in health and level design and that one turned out ok.
NOLF had quick saving. NOLF also a completely different combat model.

>The way you make a really intense game is to give the player really solid controls and a lot of power than you make his opposition an appropriate match.
PD isn't SUPPOSED to be "intense", though. It's the literal opposite of intense. Combat occurs in short, sporadic bursts. You are there to complete objectives, not to fight enemies. Fighting enemies is just a consequence of them trying to stop you. The enemies are not supposed to be your equals. They're security guards. You're a highly trained agent. A huge problem with some singleplayer FPS games is forgetting that the design template associated with MP FPS games does not work in singleplayer. Perfect Dark is a game where shooting an enemy in the hand knocks the gun from their hand. Enemies shooting YOU in the hand doesn't knock the gun from your hand. There's an intentional asymmetry to the combat.
>Did you mean the disarming? It wasn't a big part of the game.
It was a huge part of the game. It's one of the most powerful combat moves, and it plays very nicely into the game's anti-violence tone. You spend significant parts of the game with your weapons holstered. Instead of shooting enemies, you can rush them and start grabbing their weapons.
>I suppose if you improved controls so that you could instantly switch to unarmed (giving it a hotkey like the crowbar in HL2 had), you might even use it more.
PD has a weapon wheel. You can also select weapons from the pause screen. It's not exactly hard to switch to unarmed mode. Also, the Falcon has pistol whip mode for knocking out enemies.

>> No.4278262

>>4277550
You can bind the Gamecube's C-stick controls to the mouse in Dolphin

>> No.4278281

1. PC games back in the day respected GE and PD. The so called elitism is purely an invention of millennial neoMustards

2. Most people on /vr/ who shit on GE and PD have never played it substantially on 00 Agent/Perfect Agent on a real N64, and therefore they don't at all understand the gameplay, or controls, etc and why they are different from PC shooters. This is very obvious in their ignorant posts.

3. Goldeneye was the game that popularised many first person gameplay elements which found their way into classic PC games of 1998 (Thief, Half-Life, Rainbow Six, etc).

>> No.4278282

>>4278253
>You can also select weapons from the pause screen
You could but it was really shitty for immersion and pacing to use the pause menu.

>unarmed
It's been forever since I played it but isn't that once you disarm an enemy they usually just take out a pistol or start punching you in the face. Other times they run away and try to get help. Either way you still need to kill the guard after you disarm him. There's no real 'non-lethal' approach other than making a mad rush to the objectives and a few specialized parts where you are supposed to not alert the patrols.

It's still very much a game about moving and shooting. The only difference is you aren't moving down a linear corridor, or through a maze, but between several different locations that require you to interact with some objective.

>the combat model
Isn't the model typical of later PC games? The Doom, Quake, and Sam models stopped getting popular and everyone was making games like Half-Life with a focus on more intentional, slower combat.

>There's an intentional asymmetry to the combat.
The only games that don't do this are one's that are supposed to military sims. Other than that you're always some sort of super solider or super spy. It's the only thing that makes since with the player character killing hundreds of enemies single-handedly.

>> No.4278286

>>4278281
No one I know who seriously played PC fps back in the thought that Golden Eye was a significant game. And I have never heard any PC developers cite it as an influence.

>> No.4278287

>>4278281
The Deus Ex design documents mention Goldeneye influence, and before it was a commercial product Counter-Strike had a remake of Facility

>> No.4278296
File: 112 KB, 666x275, thief_goldeneye.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4278296

>>4278286
That's more a reflection of your lack of knowledge.

>> No.4278313

>>4278281
>1. PC games back in the day respected GE and PD. The so called elitism is purely an invention of millennial neoMustards
And without Doom, Duke, et al, there would've been no GE. PCMR wins again, fag.

>2. Most people on /vr/ who shit on GE and PD have never played it substantially on 00 Agent/Perfect Agent on a real N64, and therefore they don't at all understand the gameplay, or controls, etc and why they are different from PC shooters. This is very obvious in their ignorant posts.
And who would want to? GE and PD were shit games.

>3. Goldeneye was the game that popularised many first person gameplay elements which found their way into classic PC games of 1998 (Thief, Half-Life, Rainbow Six, etc).
Are you retarded? There's nothing stealthy, puzzly or tactical with GE's gamefeel.

>> No.4278339

>>4278296
This makes me think of GE as something influential but still not very good. In a way it's like Trespasser or Wolfenstein, iot their design innovations were importaint but they were not great games and get overshadowed by later games that took the ideas and made actually great games with them (in that case Half-life and Doom).

The boring auto-aim based shooting, and general ugly look just make it not be a very good game despite the nice objectives system.

I think there is a much better case to made for presenting PD as a good FPS than GE. It isn't as ugly looking, less dependent on auto-aim and is much more refined than GE with it's lay out and objectives.

>>4278313
Your method of argueing is terrible and spiteful. And this is coming from someone that does think PD and GE are inferior to PC fps

>> No.4278341

>>4278339
>auto-aim
Y'see the fact that you keep talking about this sort of brings me back to the point of people who criticize GE/PD having never played it substantially on 00 Agent/Perfect Agent...

>> No.4278352

>>4278341
I have. I played both extensively. Both the single-player mode and it's multiplayer mode. It's been fucking forever so my memory might be off but I remember the auto aim in GE being ludicrous and slightly better in PD.

Either way you also did not address than GE is a really fucking hideous looking game. The environments are not pleasant to look at, at all, the level of realism for the character's faces does not match the low poly count, and the guns have the worst reloading animation ever.

>> No.4278358
File: 2.47 MB, 640x360, goldeneye.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4278358

>>4278352
Every 3D shooter before Unreal was ugly as fuck. What's your point? I personally think Goldeneye looked a lot better than low-res Quake 1.

>> No.4278364

>he think it's pc gamers who are saying those games have aged like milk

>> No.4278370

>>4278358
Quake was great. It went with a monstrous and horror theme which could operate with the low poly count. Golden eye went with a realistic look which is ass with low poly making an ass looking game.

Basically different styles and directions operate better on low poly. And GE made a shitty choice given their level of tech. It was unavoidable though as there was no way you could do anything else with the Bond franchise.

>> No.4278378
File: 2.88 MB, 640x360, quake-2.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4278378

>>4278370
Dude lmao. Even then people made fun of Quake for being pure brown and pixels.

>> No.4278386

>>4278378
So is the conclusion to draw that 3D FPS are ugly up until around the time Unreal came and onward? That would basically mean that all such early 3D fps were not very good.

>> No.4278387

I've never been a fan of Quake. Maybe two was better (never played it), but the first was boring as shit.

>> No.4278392
File: 84 KB, 1079x1079, philosopher.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4278392

>>4278386
Are you trying to say here that a game can't be good if it doesn't have good graphics?

I think you might have taken the wrong turn from Reddit or /v/.

>> No.4278393

>>4278387
The gunplay was improved in the second. However if you thought the first game's ugliness was offputing you'll find it only slightly improved in the second game.

>> No.4278406

>>4278392
You're doing three things wrong. First you're thinking in very binary terms. There's more than just 'good game' and 'shit' there's a middle ground.

Second you're confusing "good graphics" with "not being ugly" these are not the same thing. You can have a game with very high polycount look ugly and a game with low poly count look good.

Third you're extrpulating what I said about one particular genre (FPS) to include all genres (ie you think I'm talking about all games). Having a game not be ugly matters way more in an FPS because it's a very immerseive camera perspective so the affect of ugliness and beauty gets amplified.

So your question is a foul.

>> No.4278407

Back when these games were in their heyday, PC gamers obviously preferred their high-skillcap, reaction time, and coordination shooters, but they still respected the solid gameplay experience that GE/PD brought to the table. The emphasis on narrative, stealth, level architecture, and objectives over a 100% shooting deathmatch was a breath of fresh air simply for the variety. GE/PD were also highly accessible and easy to pick up to the common gamer, which led to a PC shooter being able to have common ground with other kids at school and talk about FPS strategy, etc. even if they ultimately preferred different gameplay. Remember that FPS were still recovering from the social stigma of Columbine that the only people who enjoy them are dark, edgy, sociopaths with no friends, discouraging newcomers from joining the base. Goldeneye was a very 'lighthearted' game (you're the good guy, you save people, no moral complexity, no limbs get blown off, etc.), especially being based on a popular franchise that really warmed up the culture that FPS were acceptable again.

As GE/PD fans hungered for more shooter action and began to learn about PC games, they had respect for the crazy high speed dexterity that PC gamers had, their twitch aiming, rocket jumping, and large amount of decision making they had to do with their games having more complexity and content to manage. It was a mutual respect for the best of what the other world had to offer, and an invitation for the other to join theirs and share the fun they had found. All of this 'PC Master Race' garbage was highly looked down on, and still is now except being obnoxiously contrarian is always popular with teenagers.

>> No.4278413

>>4278407
I've never people that have been playing FPS since Wolfenstein and when I asked about them none of them have said that GE or PD were anything special.

>Remember that FPS were still recovering from the social stigma of Columbine that the only people who enjoy them are dark, edgy, sociopaths with no friends, discouraging newcomers from joining the base

This line really makes me think that you're talking about a bunch of children if you arn't completly making shit up. No gamers took the media sensationalism seriously.

That thing about the majority console gamers "respecting PC game skill" also just sounds like you're pulling shit out of your ass. The majority of the console gaming community did not really know much about PC gaming, especially in the past when PC was far more niche and less user friendly.

>> No.4278417

>>4278407
>>4278413
Actually now that I read it agian I'm convinced you really are just making shit up either that or you get you're information from some really laughable source.

>Goldeneye was a very 'lighthearted' game (you're the good guy, you save people, no moral complexity, no limbs get blown off, etc.)

This line is USSR levels of historical revionism.

>> No.4278425
File: 165 KB, 757x662, golden_troll.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4278425

>> No.4278428

When they stop sucking

>> No.4278549

They are better on pc

>> No.4278794

>>4277452
They're good games with shit controls and a terrible framerate...if you can fix these things, then they become great, as PD 360 proved.

But really, how many good PC games also have shit controls that have to be remapped? The problem with these games is that you're still remapping buttons on a terrible controller, so it's more the console's fault than the game, which can be remedied with emulation anyway.

>> No.4278802
File: 169 KB, 518x291, ss-perfect-dark-xbla-cassandra.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4278802

>>4277731
>if a Perfect Dark Remaster ever comes

Where the fuck have you been?

>> No.4278809

>>4277841
Unreal Tournament does have single player...though you'll move goalposts and say you meant a fleshed out story driven campaign like Unreal.

>> No.4278845

>>4278281
>PC games back in the day respected GE and PD. The so called elitism is purely an invention of millennial neoMustards

You have no clue.

>> No.4278847

>>4278809
What are you even arguing for? That's a serious question. That VS multiplayer games aren't something significant, a ridiculously popular genre? Or that there don't exist FPS games with that are basically there for the VS mode?

Are you just nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking are do you have a point?

>> No.4278852

>>4278845
Why did CS have a remake of Facility in its beta then?

>> No.4278857

>>4278847
He thinks vs modes and competitive play are "cancer" and the only thing worth talking about is single player. Not even joking.

>> No.4278862

>>4278852
Devs making references probably. It's irrelevant to that statement, I knew a lot of elitist pc dudes back in the day and there was very little resprct going around for goldeneye or really any N64 game.

>> No.4278892

>>4277452
they're not bad games. we just better games

>> No.4278959

>>4278862
The only ones I can remember shitting on Goldeneye were those that bought Voodoo 2 SLI, so it would have been more a matter of sunken costs fallacy and graphic whoring more than anything. Your regular PC enthusiast just liked good shooters and so could appreciate Doom 64, Goldeneye, etc.

>> No.4278983

>>4277660

4 players and 8 bots makes the frame rate drop to 8-10 fps

>> No.4278985

>>4278802

to pc

>> No.4279000

>>4278281
This is how delusional Nintendo fanboys are

>> No.4279029

>>4278378
I wonder if the all brown meme came from people who never played it. There are plenty of levels that are blue.

>> No.4279097

>>4278959
In theory yeah, but at least 90% if the dudes gaming on pcs back then were the super elitist douchebag type. I was one of the weirdos who was into both pc and cobsole games and even I didn't have much good to say about goldeneye from the few times I played it. That's the part you did get right in that most never played either of them and certainly not single player campaign. Most people I knew into pcs were only even very aware of n64 unless a younger sibling had one. Things were even more segregated than today.

>>4279029
Most are only talking about multiplayer.

>> No.4279109
File: 359 KB, 1920x1080, I wanna die.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4279109

>>4277452
>When are PC elitists going to admit that Goldeneye and Perfect Dark aren't bad games?
They aren't. Personally I think PD is a damn good game, designed with heart and attention to details (which in my opinion totally compensate simplified level design, dull AI and sluggish controls). Like, seriously, if it was originally a PC game, with better level design, mod support and multiplayer build-in it would probably be the next big thing after HL release.

>> No.4279236

>>4279109
It often seems in these threads that anyone else replying is just a bit player in a long dialogue OP is having with himself.

>> No.4279359

>>4278142
He keeps getting spawncamped and he hasn't figured out how to mute people.

>> No.4279379

Just replied golden eye after the first time in forever and man this was way worst than I remember.

I forget how much of the game took place in these tiny corridors where you didn't even have any real room to step the side. When there are other types of room there is usually nothing in them and rarely more than 1 enemy at a time. Contrast it with Duke 3D which came out a full year before.

The pretty much non-existant enemy variety also makes the game feel samey, it started to get old around the 4th mission. Not only is there only one type of enemy in the whole game but it's ai isn't even very good, contrast it with the guard ai in HL1.

Even the much touted objective system is garbage. Most of the objectives lame and feel like they serve no purpose but to make the game more tedious. For instance every single objective in the silo.

It really makes sense that no one with a PC took this game seriously. Gonna have to replay Perfect Dark again and see how that holds up.

>> No.4279403

>>4279379
>Not only is there only one type of enemy in the whole game

This can't be real can it?

>> No.4279412

>>4279403
Well what is there in it. My memory isn't going to be great, played up until the boat level just now. Last time I played the other missions was probably decade ago.

I think I remember there being a tank enemy at one point. So far it's been the exact same guard with varying pallet swaps and about 3 turrets.

>> No.4279638

>>4279412
>I think I remember there being a tank enemy at one point.
No. But you can drive a tank in multiple missions.
>So far it's been the exact same guard with varying pallet swaps and about 3 turrets.
Exactly how many different kinds of enemies did Bond face in the GoldenEye movie? This is like playing a WWII game and complaining that you just fight the same uniforms with different faces for 10 hours.

>> No.4279652

>>4278857
>He thinks vs modes and competitive play are "cancer"
This is true. Fuck multiplayer. Fuck the hyper aggressive, super competitive "bro" audience it bought into gaming around the 7th generation.

>> No.4279667

>>4278892
>we just better games
Such as? What did PC have that offered a comparable experience in 1997? PC gamers in 1997 thought Quake was amazing. Quake was on the N64, and it was a joke compared to GoldenEye.

>> No.4279675

>>4278281
>3. Goldeneye was the game that popularised many first person gameplay elements which found their way into classic PC games of 1998 (Thief, Half-Life, Rainbow Six, etc)
Such as?

>> No.4279681

>>4279638
That sounds like an entirely valid complaint. Note that we're talking about games and not movies.

>> No.4279683

>>4277576
Mouse and keyboard and 60 FPS does not make the game PC. Those aren't PC exclusive features.

>>4278150
>It bought a sportslike competitive culture into the FPS genre.
Oh God forbid players want to COMPETE with one another!

PS, even if PE or GE didn't have multiplayer, the games would have still been competitive breeding grounds because both games are popular for speedrunning. Hell, speedrunning was encouraged by Rare given that they record your best mission times and lock cheats behind them.

>> No.4279686

>>4278845
Actually, you're the one that has no clue. GE was listed as a direct inspiration for the game Thief.

>> No.4279690

>>4279675
You for real? It incorporated stealth elements, objectives beyond "find the key" (not to say GE was the first to do this), multiple objectives per level, more mission objectives on higher difficulty levels.

Not to mention the devs of thief straight up said GE was an inspiration.

>> No.4279693

>>4278049
>Perfect Dark is a game where speedrunners spend most of their time dodging and disarming enemies instead of shooting them.
Isn't that pretty typical of FPS speedruns? Even in a Quake speedrun you "disarm" enemies by causing them to flinch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxIlK3wycek

>> No.4279697

>>4279681
How is it a valid complaint? How many different kinds of enemies did you fight in Rainbow 6? Or any other "tactical" FPS?

>> No.4279726

>>4279638
>This is like playing a WWII game and complaining that you just fight the same uniforms with different faces for 10 hours

I already addressed that.

>Not only is there only one type of enemy in the whole game but it's ai isn't even very good, contrast it with the guard ai in HL1.

How did you miss that, it was right in the sentence. All those ww2 games also have better ai, so it may be the same enemy but it's doing a lot more. Not to mention the other problems, the poorly implemented objective system and bad stage design.

>>4279690

>multiple objectives per level
Most objectives really are just 'find the thing'. Sometimes you have to throw a gadget at the key or shoot it but it's still basically the same premise as the key or switch hunt.

I think system shock ihad more complicated stuff.

>It incorporated stealth elements,
What? The stealth is no more advanced than anything else that happened before. Guards have a site radious and chase things in it.

>>4279697
I already addresed that. The guards in other games had good ai, so it was at least engageing. The golden eye guards are barely a step above the troopers in doom, while half life and tactical FPS have guards that flank you or even use cover.

>> No.4279737

>>4277452
>split screen
>radar
>s l o w d o w n

They have a lot of demerits, man.

>> No.4279738

>>4277452
I played Goldeneye once. The controls were fucking shit.

Doesn't matter how decent the game is if the control system is a pile of Mexican diarrhea.

>> No.4279743

>hey let's go to my place and play some FPS anon
>it's just goldeneye

It's like going over to play Transformers and all they got are two busted Go-Bots.

>> No.4279761

>>4279726
>Sometimes you have to throw a gadget at the key or shoot it but it's still basically the same premise as the key or switch hunt.

Considering you have objectives where you have to protect NPCs, not alert guards, or to stop something from happening within a time limit, and so on...no, it's not a key hunt.

>> No.4279765

>>4279726
>and bad stage design.
What bad stage design?
>Most objectives really are just 'find the thing'.
Most objectives in every game ever are "find the thing". Perfect Dark's objectives are far more sophisticated, but the principle is the same.
>What? The stealth is no more advanced than anything else that happened before.
GoldenEye literally invented weapon sound propagation and OHK headshots.
>The golden eye guards are barely a step above the troopers in doom, while half life and tactical FPS have guards that flank you or even use cover.
Have you... have you ever actually played Rainbow 6 or the SWAT games? Because they do none of those things.

It sounds like you don't really... "get" what kind of game this is. The combat is not supposed to be challenging. GoldenEye is literally a Virtua Cop clone that was rejigged midway through development to allow free roaming. The AI is supposed to act like an Bond movie. They often deliberately miss the player on their first shot, for example. Perfect Dark's AI is a lot more sophisticated, but it's still designed around a particular stylistic ethos. They're supposed to come across as "human". Very slow, deliberate, and not particularly competent.

>> No.4279768

>>4279738
How were the controls "fucking shit", and which control scheme did you choose?

>> No.4279793

>>4279761
Almost all the objectives are just glorified key hunts with the other things being very uncommon and not even handled way. The escort parts were terrible.

Hell even the key-hunting is bad compared to PC games like Duke 3D! Do you actually think that a single objective in the silo was a good idea?

>>4279765
>What bad stage design?

Caring on a conversation here is difficult. I layed that out and a number of other points in my initial post here.

>>4279379
> "get" what kind of game this is
Please spare me the special-snow flake talk. I can't take you seriously if your going to do that routine.

>GoldenEye is literally a Virtua Cop clone that was rejigged midway through development to allow free roaming
I don't get what you're trying to say here? Are you trying to say it's bad because the development cycle was hellish. That does explain a lot. It feels like I'm playing a shitty fan-mod of a proper game instead of a professionally made project.


>perfect dark
A lot of what you said about it improving GE is very true in the objectives and shooting is very true. I'm not entirly sure about this because it's been 10 years since I touched it. If my memory is right I'd consider PD a good game.

>> No.4279841

>>4279652
That audience was already there. It was just more prominent on PCs. The shift ypu noticed in 7th gen was the PC shooter audience migrating to consoles.

There were plenty of jocks into gaming all along, the notion there weren't is a fallacy. Heck the guy who first showed me what emulators are in like 1998 is now a sports writer.

Also you must have never seen the inside of an arcade from the way You're talking.

>> No.4280073

>>4279379
>When there are other types of room there is usually nothing in them and rarely more than 1 enemy at a time
KEK next we'll hear there are too many enemies cause respawning guards!

lmao at so many people being bad at goldeneye and not playing on 00 agent

>> No.4280167

I skimmed through this thread and all I heard was a bunch of autists screeching about how singleplayer is worthless and multiplayer is always noncancerous.

You gotta be fucking kidding me if you all actally believe thus. Where were you for the past twenty years? Hell, where were you at all during the 90s era of fps???? Outside of Quake III and Unreal Tournament, multiplayer was only there as extra content. It was always the singleplayer content that defined the quality of an fps game. Also, Quake III initially had some mixed reception and was slighly less received than the other Quake games becayse of the fact that ID made it a multiplayer-oriented game.

So all if you fucking hipster children can stop whining about "MP beinG dUh BeSt!!!!!". Also, if you don't think that the competetive atmosphete of modern COD games is shittty....well....you have shit-tier taste then.

>> No.4280171

>>4278392
>Are you trying to say here that a game can't be good if it doesn't have good graphics?
What is minecraft? I don't play it, but I can't get my kids off of it. It looks like total dog shit. Terrarria is also great. I have experience with that. Borderlands looks like shit, but plays great. Everything is brown there too.

Games are more than graphics, however the beauty in the entire offering is subjective. You make that choice.

>> No.4280189

>>4280167
Hi OP

>> No.4280196

>>4280171
How is Borderlands enjoyable. I got bored after the 3rd area because it was the same "follow the arrow, okay now follow this arrow and shot some shit/find some shit, follow the arrow back, mission complete"

>> No.4280207

>>4279793
>it's been 10 years since i touched it
>if my memory is right

See this is the problem is that most of the people here haven't played in over a decade and they remember how they felt when they first played it as opposed to going back to it recently and realizing that it may not be that good, essentially ruining their nostalgic feelings.

>> No.4280210

>>4277452
but they aren't. When people speed run these games they literally look down at the ground because otherwise the fps goes down to zero and they have no chance at a good time.

>> No.4280212

>>4280207
Not that guy but replaying Goldeneye now I actually thought it was better than I remembered it when I last played it in 2007, which is when I thought it was worse than I remembered it in 1997

>> No.4280220
File: 47 KB, 600x808, bond.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4280220

>>4280210
>equating framerate with quality
I guess Quake was complete garbage when I played it on a Pentium 75 and I was just having artificial fun

>> No.4280223

>>4280196
Not him but I liked the environments and finding weird new loot to shoot space desert monsters with. I mostly only followed arrows when bored or feeling lost. I also thought it looked cool.

>> No.4280227

>>4280220
The same forum that loses their shit over emulators causing milliseconds of lag then claims not to care about abysmal framerate drops.

>> No.4280230

>>4280212
Yeah man see that's cool too. I played through a bunch of N64 games early this year and while I didn't like Goldeneye and Perfect Dark as much as I remembered and I loved those game as a kid. That being said they aren't bad games at all and a lot of people want the status of "my shit is better than your shit" which is all these threads come down to, every time.

>> No.4280231

>>4280227
People just like playing on original hardware dude. And framerate isn't the same thing as input lag.

>> No.4280241

>>4280231
Obviously, but I'm sure you get how delicious the irony is. This whole thread is hilarious.

>> No.4280282

>>4280207
Well I just played it now.

Perfect Dark isn't bad...it's not something I'd play or reccomend though. It's amazing compared to Golden Eye which is not saying much. But to think it came out the same year as Unreal. It's not a good game, it's just barely above being unplayable.

>> No.4280331

>>4277452
I have a real soft spot for them, and Perfect Dark is genuinely great under the right circumstances (when you're playing it on anything but the N64), but it simply does not have the depth and staying power of something like DOOM.

>> No.4280361

>>4280331

I fucking hated Doom myself. Honestly don't get where you're coming from.

>> No.4280392
File: 418 KB, 1024x326, Letterboxed.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4280392

>>4280282
>But to think it came out the same year as Unreal. It's not a good game, it's just barely above being unplayable.
You can't even shoot out light sources in Unreal.

It sounds to me like there's a huge demographic gap in the overarching FPS genre where one half values stuff like complex objectives and a slow, methodical pace while the other half values stuff like intense combat where reflexes matter. Look at something as simple as camping. This is frowned up in PC FPS games, but in Perfect Dark multiplayer it's a primary tactic. You plaster your immediate vicinity with mines, place a laptop gun, and then wait, crouched, with a K7 Avenger.

Rareware took influence from FPS contemporaries but also rebelled against trends. This is why Perfect Dark isn't really "dated'. It doesn't fit into any specific design era category. Nothing about its design can be pigeonholed the way the myriad of Quake and Half-Life and Call of Duty clones can be.

Rareware innovated like crazy and put stuff in their games just because they wanted to. Things like the stupidly wide letterbox aspect ratio settings.

>> No.4280395

>>4280282
>But to think it came out the same year as Unreal
It's hard to take you seriously when you can't even get simple facts right

>> No.4280405

People really need to stop lumping GoldenEye and Perfect Dark together. They're very different games. GE was rough and experimental and kinda vague and frustrating. Perfect Dark is a whole other kettle of fish. Many of its most significant design innovations were absent from GE. GE is GOOD, but it's not GREAT. It has nagging design problems. Design problems Perfect Dark went out of its way to address. GoldenEye is more influential. GoldenEye sold way more copies. But Perfect Dark is in a whole other league as a videogame. It does things other games either don't do or don't do as well.

The level design in PD is amazing. There's a really good article exploring how everything is interconnected and all doors lead somewhere. http://www.ultimaratioregum.co.uk/game/2014/07/27/perfect-dark-retrospective-2/

>> No.4280420

>>4280405

I've seen some shit in Perfect Dark Arena levels I can't explain to this day. Areas I was never able to get to (and the sims can't seem to figure out either). I suppose most are just those magical leftover bits that Rare always left sprinkled throughout their finished product- the cutting room floor made briefly visible, so to speak- but at least one I never did remember seeing cataloged for posterity. It actually had pickups in it, too.

>> No.4280429
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4280429

>>4280405
There's an attention to detail, and a sense of place. PD's levels feel like real locations. And the player is encouraged to explore them at length.

Also, the escalators work. I don't think the average person appreciates just how hard it is to make a good looking FPS escalator.

>> No.4280460

>>4280392
>It sounds to me like there's a huge demographic gap in the overarching FPS genre where one half values stuff like complex objectives and a slow methodical combat

More like poorly implimented objectives and brainless combat

The objectives in Perfect Dark essentially revolve round finding some item, sometimes you throw take out a gadget and hover it over the item for a few seconds.

It's the same fucking keycard that's always existed.

And the combat? The enemies have piss-poor reaction time and short enough vision range to make them legally blind. You turn a corner shoot them. If they aren't dead yet you back off, wait for them to stop firing and repeat. Maybe if you are feeling adventerous you can try just strafing instead of backing behind the wall, they tend to suck at hitting moving targets. Basically it's the same shit you do with the troopers in every other FPS but more dumbed down.

>multiplayer
I don't think you could convience anyone to play this game's multiplayer unless they were very high nostalgia. The split-screen alone would ruin any enjoyment now that we're used to everyone having their own screen.

>This is why Perfect Dark isn't really "dated'. It doesn't fit into any specific design era category.

This special-snow flake mentality really is the last line of defense. Please stop, it's basically desecrating the game to try to save face from reality.

After I played Perfect Dark I gave it to my friend who is very experienced with PC FPS, it was his first time playing it. He got to the second level before deciding the game was unplayable. I don't blame him, the only reason I went to the third mission before turning it off was out of nostalgia.

I would literally rather play the worst COD campaign than this game. And I don't even like COD.

>> No.4280467

>>4280460
>And the combat? The enemies have piss-poor reaction time and short enough vision range to make them legally blind. You turn a corner shoot them. If they aren't dead yet you back off, wait for them to stop firing and repeat. Maybe if you are feeling adventerous you can try just strafing instead of backing behind the wall, they tend to suck at hitting moving targets. Basically it's the same shit you do with the troopers in every other FPS but more dumbed down.
you didn't play it on perfect agent

>> No.4280469

>>4280460

I was able to play just fine at 10 years of age. Don't use the default control schema- it's shit.

>> No.4280471

>>4280460
You can't have nostalgia for something you are playing for the first time.

>> No.4280473

>>4280467
The defeatism coming from you is revolting. I did. The game is BARELY playable for the year it came out and by today's standard is something not even worth remembering. I've realized I was really blinded by nostalgia.

Go play on Perfect Agent or whatever than do a match against high-ai bots in Unreal Tournament or do one of the maps on unreal where you fight a bunch of Skeddar. Tell me how it compares. Perfect Dark is 6 months older than Tournament and 2 years older than Unreal! MY god it's so far behind!!

>> No.4280474

>>4280471
>>4280469
I played it when it came out. Just replayed it for the first time in forever.

Man who cares about the controls. It's not even a good game! I couldn't even finish the 3rd mission because I had to quit out of sheer bordem. My friend who has no nostalgia barely could do the first before declaring it unplayable.

>> No.4280476

>>4280460
>The objectives in Perfect Dark essentially revolve round finding some item, sometimes you throw take out a gadget and hover it over the item for a few seconds.
Let's take Chicago for example:

Objective One - Retrieve drop point equipment (Your equipment is in a storm drain. You have to find it without getting blown to bits by the security robot or alerting the car park guards.)

Objective Two - Attatch Tracer to Limousine (You have to find the limo and attach a bug to it without being seen, and without getting blown to pieces by the security bot. One easier option is to go down underneath the street and open a vent below the limo.

Objective Three - Prepare escape route (You have to climb a fire escape and place a proximity mine. The bricked up doorway you choose determines your exit route for the next mission.)

Objective Four - Create vehicular diversion (You have to reprogram the taxi to make it drive to the car park and blow up, killing the guards. If you, or someone else, accidentally blows up the taxi, it is possible to compensate using the bombspy hidden in the alleyway dumpster.)

Objective Five - Gain Entry to G5 building (This requires clearing out the guards somehow, either using the taxi or using a bombspy.)

How exactly would you design the game differently?

>After I played Perfect Dark I gave it to my friend who is very experienced with PC FPS, it was his first time playing it. He got to the second level before deciding the game was unplayable.
You... do understand this says more about your friend than anything else, right? If he couldn't handle a level speed runners can finish in 6 seconds, there's no hope for him.

>> No.4280483

>>4280473
>Go play on Perfect Agent or whatever than do a match against high-ai bots in Unreal Tournament or do one of the maps on unreal where you fight a bunch of Skeddar.
Go play a match against Dark Sims and see how smug you feel afterwards.

You're like someone who whines that Mario 64 doesn't have precision platforming in it. Perfect Dark is a game with no saving during missions. Missions that can take literally hours to complete first try. Perfect Dark is about iterative trial and error. You play the same level over and over and over, failing each time, until you understand its ins and outs.

You seem to want a game where failure is measured in not dying. These are games where success is measured in how fast you managed to complete all the objectives. It sounds to me like you don't place any value on the objective-based gameplay template.

>> No.4280484

>>4280473
>The game is BARELY playable for the year it came out
m8 if the special snowflake game reviewers in 2000 thought it was playable enough to give it 97% then im sure its playable enough

>Go play on Perfect Agent or whatever than do a match against high-ai bots in Unreal Tournament or do one of the maps on unreal where you fight a bunch of Skeddar
wow its almost like the hardware the game plays on hadn't changed since 1996 or something...

you are literally a little bitch

>> No.4280485

>>4280473
The aliens in Unreal are the Skaarj. The aliens in Perfect Dark are the Skedar. You're not helping your case by mixing them up.

>> No.4280487

>>4280484
>m8 if the special snowflake game reviewers in 2000 thought it was playable enough to give it 97% then im sure its playable enough
Also the XBLA remaster got a 79% on Metacritic despite a bunch of critics whining that the game didn't spoon feed objectives to them.

>> No.4280490

>>4280474

None of that says much of anything to me. Who is your friend? What is his background?

As for it not being a "good game", I disagree. I thought it was quite good (though I've never played Unreal 1, so I can't really compare those two).

>> No.4280494

>>4280476
You cherry picked out an objective. Try this. Think of the sum total of ALL the objectives. What % do would you say are more than a key-hunt, a 'kill this dude' or a 'find the exit'? How many can be completed in multiple ways. If you do that I think you'll see the interesting objectives were a minority.

>You... do understand this says more about your friend than anything else, right? If he couldn't handle a level speed runners can finish in 6 seconds, there's no hope for him
Once you have to resort to discussing about speedrunning you've pretty much forfeited the entire arguement. Your'e talking about a community of people that have severe mental problems, many of them being trannies, and you're using that to defend a boring video game. That's levels of stupidity and desperation that lack

Seriously the hell do you think this a point in your favor? That's a legitimate question I'd like to know the know the answer for.

>>4280483
I've went over this in my previous post. I played the game for an insane amount of hours, all the combat simulators, all the perfect agent missions, tons of multiplayer.

I'm revisting the game with my friend (who never played it) after at least 10 years. And I have found the game unplayable and

I already covered the shitty objective thing in like 2 different posts and I'm tired of repeating myself. Fuck I'm repeating myself a 3rd time to the guy above you. I think you should try reading the thread before posting, otherwise it's just goign to keep things going in a circle.

>> No.4280503

>>4280484
> game reviewers
Which reviews? That's the key point. Game journalism was already in decay at that point.

>wow its almost like the hardware the game plays on hadn't changed since 1996 or something
Why are you arguing FOR PC FPS now? Because not being able to keep up with hardware upgrades is a point against the entirety of console gaming.

>>4280485
So instead of comparing the games and addressing my point you're focusing on a fucking typo. No counter points? I'm taking that as a forefeit.

>>4280490
I'm not going to endlessly repeat the same thing. I already explained this at least twice, it's an upper post.

>> No.4280504

>>4280494
>What % do would you say are more than a key-hunt, a 'kill this dude' or a 'find the exit'?
Mission 1: Escort a hostile programmer upstairs to unlock a computer. He'll wipe the files if you don't knock him out as soon as he puts in the password. Get Cassandra's keycode necklace.
Mission 2: Use your camspy to photograph the isotope. Find a way to activate the cleaning robots so they'll patrol through laser grids. Shut down experiments in the laboratories and steal the prototypes, which are actually usable items.

And it goes on and on. What on earth are you expecting from a spy FPS?

>How many can be completed in multiple ways.

Being able to do an objective multiple ways is a great bonus, but there are only so many ways to open a safe and take its contents, you know.

>> No.4280507

>>4280503
>Which reviews? That's the key point.
Literally every review. Perfect Dark is one of the highest rated, most critically acclaimed games in existence.

>> No.4280509

>>4280503
>Because not being able to keep up with hardware upgrades is a point against the entirety of console gaming.
no it just means that good consoles games are designed with the limitations in mind

supposedly the whole reason goldeneye was made as a slower paced spy shooter and not an arena shooter is because the developers understood the former was more conducive to a controller than the latter

that's why going hurrr this console game isn't as xtreme as this pc game is a shit argument

>> No.4280513

>>4280503

Why would I expend the effort reading an entire thread of your moronic drivvel when I'm at least 70% certain you're trolling?

What's in it for me to enable you to keep jerking off into your keyboard, Anon?

>> No.4280515

>>4280503
If Perfect Dark had been released for PC, pretty much nothing about overall its design would have changed. After all, pretty much nothing was changed when the game was remastered for Xbox 360. Games like Unreal were closer to the Turok series. Perfect Dark is an entirely different breed.

>> No.4280516

>>4280509
>supposedly the whole reason goldeneye was made as a slower paced spy shooter and not an arena shooter is because the developers understood the former was more conducive to a controller than the latter
I mean, GoldenEye was literally developed using a modified Sega Saturn controller for much of its development, since they didn't have access to real N64 hardware.

>> No.4280518

>>4280504
Wow after I called you out for cherry picking again...we get more cherry picking.

Answer the question.
>What % do would you say are more than a key-hunt, a 'kill this dude' or a 'find the exit'?

Here I'll help you. In the first mission there's 5 objectives, 1 of them is not just a fucking keycard. That means 80% of the objectives are key-card hunts! And that 20% that isn't consists of an escort mission (everyone loves those right?) so that the guy can give you what is essentially another keycard. So we're actually being generous here.

Now since 80% is a lot more than 20%. We can say that the objective are mostly just keycard hunts.

Is this dumbed down enough for you. I don't like being rude but you're either being kind of slow here or intentionally trying to side-step things that make your position look bad. Like how the subject of the shitty guard ai seems to have disapeared because there's no good counter to it. Perfect Dark's ai IS total garbage compared to the Unreal games that came out way earlier. Dark was dated when it came out.

>> No.4280520

>>4280509
>supposedly the whole reason goldeneye was made as a slower paced spy shooter and not an arena shooter is because the developers understood the former was more conducive to a controller than the latter

More like the devs realized the game drops to 4fps whenever anything explodes.

>> No.4280523
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4280523

>>4280520
>le n64 had bad framerates compared to typical PCs of the era
Not this tired argument again

>> No.4280526

>>4280507
You act like the fact that someone reviewed it in a positive manner means anything. That's sheep-think. Why did they say it was better than say Unreal? You know critical analysis?

>>4280515
I honestly think if Perfect Dark were released for the PC it would have gotten laughed at. The graphics are 5 years dated and shooting mechanics even more so. It was however the best console FPS ever made for it's time. Big fish in a small pound. That's where it's fame comes from.

>> No.4280532

>>4280518
>And that 20% that isn't consists of an escort mission (everyone loves those right?) so that the guy can give you what is essentially another keycard.
He unlocks the computer so you can use your data uplink to download the data.

You're refusing to answer the question. How would you IMPROVE Perfect Dark's objectives? What game does objectives better?

> Like how the subject of the shitty guard ai seems to have disapeared because there's no good counter to it. Perfect Dark's ai IS total garbage compared to the Unreal games that came out way earlier. Dark was dated when it came out.
Perfect Dark's AI was hobbled by the N64's CPU, and is actually the game's biggest performance drain. The good points:

PD NPCs can navigate an entire level. This includes using elevators. How many FPS games from 2000 had NPCs who would call an elevator, wait for the elevator, go up 3 floors, and then make their way to the roof?

Perfect Dark's AI has extremely clever "fear" mechanics. Wounded or scared AI flees and calls for reinforcements. Games like FEAR pretended to do this, but Perfect Dark actually does it. Also, Perfect Dark AI can become scared of the player and voluntarily throw away their weapons. This often happens when the player massacres a group and there's only one or two left.

Perfect Dark's AI can throw grenades. Not very well, but they can do it.

Perfect Dark's AI can switch between shooting and hand-to-hand combat, solving a design problem from GoldenEye. It's basically a more sophisticated version of the Female Assassin from Half-Life.

Perfect Dark's AI will dodge roll to avoid fire. Sometimes NPCs will lay down on the ground, which makes them harder to hit.

Perfect Dark's AI can hear noise, and will investigate noises. They are also partially blinded if the player shoot outs light sources.

Did I mention you can shoot out many list sources in Perfect Dark? Amazing feature missing from most FPS games at the time, and since, DESU.

>> No.4280536

>>4280526
>You act like the fact that someone reviewed it in a positive manner means anything. That's sheep-think
Hmm right in the year 2000 all the game reviewers across the planet all conspired together to give Perfect Dark 97% on average.

>Why did they say it was better than say Unreal?
Unreal is a totally different kind of shooter so it wouldn't have crossed anybody's mind. That being said, Unreal is a good game but it's also pretty tech demo-y. The single player level design isn't even on-par with Quake 1, though it looks beautiful for the time.

>I honestly think if Perfect Dark were released for the PC it would have gotten laughed at
I wonder what drives a 'man' to take this combative dick-waving platform war approach

>> No.4280537

>>4280526
>The graphics are 5 years dated
Name a single FPS game 1995-2000 where you can shoot out pretty much any light source with a corona.

>> No.4280543
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>> No.4280545

>>4280523
Dude, fucking play it. You can literally see the game turn into a slideshow when explosions happen.

Also I'd love to see a source on that bench mark or at least the rest of the specs. Nice try with the attempted redirect but I'm not stupid enough to forget a basic fact about GE/PD. The whole topic is about why PC owners look down their nose at them and single digit framerates is a pretty big concern.

>> No.4280547
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4280547

>>4280545
>Also I'd love to see a source on that bench mark or at least the rest of the specs
http://thandor.net/benchmark/33

>single digit framerates

>> No.4280551

>>4280532
How would you IMPROVE Perfect Dark's objectives?
>What game does objectives better?

Optional objectives for one. Think about how much of Unreal is optional. There's all sorts of areas that exist only to get guns earlier or something like that. WHich brings us to this problem.

Another problem is that PD resets your inventory every fucking level. Let's say you had some sort of hacking or lockpicking item like in Deus Ex and System Shock. Well in those games if you choose to not spend them on one part of the game you get to keep them and maybe spend them another. You can't have that though with your inventory being reset all the time.


>Dark Ai

The dodge rolling, the ability to detect by noise, being wounded, calling for reinforncments, being able to use grenades, guns, or hand to hand at will. All of this was in Unreal EARLIER. Not to mention the Unreal AI can handle jumping, levels with more verticle complexity, dodge non-hit scan projectiles, mix up it's strafing to confuse the player, aim better, handle higher movement speed, SWIMMING, and FLYING, and way more types of weaponry that arn't hitscan.

And it does this while having more than 8 'sims' allowed at once in a game with better graphics that look a generation better, more open areas, and EARLIER.

The ai did pretty much everything Perfect Dark did but better, earlier, and it did more stuff ontop of it.

Oh and here's the real killing blow. Unreal had this in the campaign mode! While PD only had it in the combat simulator and outside of custom matches you won't find many dark sims.

However I will say that the Dark Ai is the best ai on the n64 library. It really does deserve credit for that!

Biggest fish in small pound, thats what Perfect Dark was. The pound is the console library. The n64 would fry if it tried to run unreal.

Back when I played PD we did 4-player combat simulator with 8 dark sims. It was so rough on the console that we had to take breaks to let it cool off! =D

>> No.4280559

>>4280536
Let me explain this because you seem to have no clue what PC FPS are like or even how to compare to things.

This thread is about PCfags vs PD and GE. Well if you want to say these are top-notch games you need to COMPARE them the topnotch PC games. You can't weasel out of it by saying PD is a special snowflake.

Back when these game came out the Kings of the PC were Quake and Unreal. You need to compare the FPS to them if you want to say if it's worthy of getting respect.

So basically if you can't take the best aspects of Quake and Unreal and try to compare them to PD or GE you're withdrawing from the challenge totally.

PC players who played this games know they absolutely smoke all console shooters at the time which is why PD and GE were never taken very seriously.

>> No.4280560

>>4280551
>Think about how much of Unreal is optional. There's all sorts of areas that exist only to get guns earlier or something like that
woah....ammo rooms...are optional objectives....what did he mean by this...

>Another problem is that PD resets your inventory every fucking level.
Lmao, you really don't fucking get it

>The dodge rolling, the ability to detect by noise, being wounded, calling for reinforncments, being able to use grenades, guns, or hand to hand at will. All of this was in Unreal EARLIER.
And everything except hand-to-hand combat was in Goldeneye earlier.

>Unreal had this in the campaign mode! While PD only had it in the combat simulator
??? have you played Perfect Dark

>The n64 would fry if it tried to run unreal.
Except Unreal was in development for N64 at one point

>> No.4280561

>>4280559
>Back when these game came out the Kings of the PC were Quake and Unreal.
Quake was on the N64.

>> No.4280563

>>4280547
I don't like that the amount or type of RAM used isn't given since that's kind of the other half of a two-part equation that determines how well software runs.

If he's using only 8 megs then he's running it at sub-recommended settings and rendering the analysis useless.

And again I'm not impressed that you're continuing to duck the massive and easily verifiable frame rate drop on the N64 games.

>single digit frame rate

Yes single digit frame rate. I didn't stutter and you can see it for yourself if you'd stop being a fool in denial and fucking play the game. You meme arrowing me doesn't alter that fact or convince anyone of anything outside of you desperately needing the last word in an argument you're losing and can't even strawman your way out of.

>> No.4280568

>>4280551
Perfect Dark's singleplayer AI was entirely geared towards creating enemies that seemed human. Unreal's AI was a lot closer to multiplayer bot AI. It was designed to be challenging to fight. There's a completely different underlying design ethos that you're not really appreciating because you judge these games on how challenging they were as straight shooters.

Remember that mission in Unreal where you put on a disguise and infiltrated an enemy base, using your portable computer to put a virus into their computers, with various effects including making the lights to berserk (showing off PD's lighting) or making the doors open and close at random?

No? Of course not. Unreal didn't have anything like that. It was a game primarily about shooting enemies as you moved through each level. It was fundamentally a shinier version of Quake. I have a soft spot for Unreal, but it's basically a different genre to GE/PD.

The closest thing PC gamers had at the time was Project IGI, which was a straight up GoldenEye clone.

>> No.4280570

>>4280563
>I didn't stutter and you can see it for yourself if you'd stop being a fool in denial and fucking play the game

>my feels trump your facts

>> No.4280573

>>4280560
>And everything except hand-to-hand combat was in Goldeneye earlier.

Golden eye didn't even have ai for multiplayer idiot.

And the single player ai is nowhere near what Unreal or even Perfect Dark had. It's pathing, hearing/vision, is still at the level of doom dudes.

>Except Unreal was in development for N64 at one point

Yeah, and they canned it because Unreal eventually reached a point of development where it were put on a n64 it would not be able to run.

the n64 can't even handle very far draw distance to handle the Unreal enviroments.

>> No.4280585
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4280585

>>4280573
>It's pathing, hearing/vision, is still at the level of doom dudes.
Haha no, it's basically a buggier and more exploitable version of what got put into PD. You literally cannot complete 00 Agent in Goldeneye without knowing what the AI can and can't do. The stealth system is a part of that. But please, go on and keep showing everybody how little you know about the game.

>Yeah, and they canned it because Unreal eventually reached a point of development where it were put on a n64 it would not be able to run.
Except it was still announced as in development after the PC version came out. Wasn't canned until ~early 1999. It was being developed for the 64DD, so there's your reason.

>the n64 can't even handle very far draw distance to handle the Unreal enviroments.
really makes you think

>> No.4280586

>>4280561
And did it have the LAN mutliplayer? Did it control as well without a mouse and keyboard.

Once you do that 'compare' thing I mentioned you see the n64 didnt' hold up.

BTW Quake was the lower tech of the 2, coming out earlier. Unreal wasn't on the n64 because the hardware couldn't handle it.

>>4280568
PD does deserve some credit for trying to make objectives into things beyond searching for a red key or a lever to pull. But it's still heavily a game about shooting with the objectives just being something to change up the pace. So you can't ignore the shitty ai and gunplay. The objective stuff is also not as deep as your system shock or deus ex. And I mentioned part of it was resetting your inventory every mission.

>> No.4280591

>>4280585
>that image

Is that camera angle even possible in the game? I think it just happens once during a cutscene.

Not to mention the polycount in that as well as the processing power devoted to enemy ai is way lower than Unreal.

>> No.4280594
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4280594

>>4280586
>The objective stuff is also not as deep as your system shock or deus ex. And I mentioned part of it was resetting your inventory every mission.
GE/PD are not first person RPGs

>>4280591
>I think it just happens once during a cutscene.
you've answered your own question

Think it's also worth posting some benchmarks. Here's how well a "top of the line" graphic card in 1998 played Unreal. The original Voodoo had less than half of the performance. And if you were using software mode? Just forget about approaching 20 frames.

>> No.4280606

>>4280591

OOT used "live" cutscenes, dude. It still had to render nearly every damn bit of that as if you were looking at it in-game. Which you would know, if you knew dick about consoles.

>> No.4280624

>>4280594
I think it's best to compare games at their maximum setting. It's ultimately what everyone eventually gets at one point or another. If someone were to ask whether they should play Unreal or Perfect Dark are you gonna post that image or something?

This is just a weak attempt to try to ignore that PD didn't stack up to the PC FPS of it's time.

>>4280606
So you're ignoring the comment about polycount because it's inconvenient for your argument? If you have less stuff onscreen you can of course increase your view distance!

But when you want to actually have the player shooting at enemies, which in addition to having their own polys have RAM eating ai algorithms you're view distance is going down the tubes.

Seriously what are you even trying to say? That the n64 was equal to or better the PC in graphic power? Where are you even going with this crap?

>> No.4280628

>>4280624
>I think it's best to compare games at their maximum setting
There is no maximum setting for PD on emulator vs Unreal. They can scale their resolutions into the infinity. It only makes sense to make a chronological argument.

>So you're ignoring the comment about polycount because it's inconvenient for your argument? If you have less stuff onscreen you can of course increase your view distance!
The wide open outdoor areas in Unreal are also pretty barren from memory

>RAM eating ai algorithms
You don't really help your arguments when you make mentally-challenged statements you know.

>> No.4280640

>>4280628
>It only makes sense to make a chronological argument.
What purpose would this arguement possible have other than to avoid making consoles look inferior? If you were to play Unreal today you WOULD scale it up. Seriously this just sounds like a pathetic attempt to try avoid addressing weaknesses about PD.

Consoles do only have one setting, their static, that's just a weakness of theirs. Hell the definitive version of Perfect Dark isn't even on the n64 now but on emulators that can increase all sorts features!

Even if we were to do your stupid idea of compare it to a waterd down Unreal what would that accomplish? PD would still be a game with weak ai, worst guns (half the secondary fires for instance are a totally lame), less open levels, worst exploring, more cramped spaces, no dodge roll, less features for VS, split-screen multiplayer, an inferior aiming input and probably half a dozen other things Unreal does better.

The only good thing mentioned in it's favor in this whole damn thread was the objective system! That fact that nothing else, including by you, can be said in the game's favor is ample proof!

>> No.4280642
File: 915 KB, 245x180, 1420582225411.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4280642

>>4280624

>So you're ignoring the comment about polycount because it's inconvenient for your argument? If you have less stuff onscreen you can of course increase your view distance!

...Wat?

>But when you want to actually have the player shooting at enemies, which in addition to having their own polys have RAM eating ai algorithms you're view distance is going down the tubes.

...u wat m80? Imma just let yer own words be my reply:

>Seriously what are you even trying to say?...Where are you even going with this crap?

>> No.4280648
File: 173 KB, 355x362, iwata.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4280648

>>4280640
You keep changing your argument. Bad for its time, wait no bad for a time which wasn't its time but a time shortly after that, wait no it's bad for the current time.

And then you just throw in a random assortment of poorly argued assertions of your own ignorant opinion.

You are the reason people think mustards (as distinct from PC enthusiasts) should be exterminated like the rats they are.

>> No.4280694

>>4278847
Where are you getting all this shit from? You said Unreal Tournament has no single player and I corrected you...I'm not arguing in favor of anything, just pointing out your mistake.

>>4278857
Again, stop seeing what you want to see in my post.

>> No.4280708

You guys should really watch the Martin Hollis GDC postmortem on GoldenEye. He goes into major depth on the game's development process and what led him and the team to make certain decisions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdsDVJwROVU

One thing he mentions is many design ideas were driven by "filmic realism". This is why GE's enemies can't aim for shit. This is why everything explodes when you shoot it.

>> No.4280790
File: 87 KB, 464x391, monstersdoomifj0r[1].gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4280790

>>4280361
Okay, allow me to explain.

DOOM has better level design. Although Goldeneye has pretty good level design, and Perfect has great level design, DOOM, and especially megawads like The Plutonia Experiment, has sublime level design. See, the levels I like the best in Perfect Dark are levels like Crash Site and Skedar Ruins. Those are great, because they're open-ended and somewhat labyrinthine. In DOOM, almost every level is an open-ended labyrinth.

DOOM has better enemies. It's cool that both N64 games have enemies with context sensitive hit points, but the palette-swapped troopers get awfully samey after a while. Perfect Dark mixes it up with the Skedar, which is really cool, but two enemy types still don't hold a candle to the fantastic roster of DOOM enemies. That game has a great variety of enemies, each with their own personality and attack behavior, and their various attack patterns demand different strategies from the player. Also, every weapon in GE and PD are hitscan, while in DOOM, only weak enemies use hitscan. Most the time, you'll be dodging projectiles, and mastering the game is all about footwork.

DOOM has better weapons. Now, Perfect Dark has a massive arsenal of weapons, and the secondary functions on a lot of these are really cool. However, there are just so many fully-automatic assault rifles, that it just becomes redundant, and there's little care for balance. DOOM, on the other hand, has few weapons, but they all serve an individual purpose, except for the pistol. They are wonderfully balanced and adapted for widely differing circumstances. DOOM does more with much less in the weapons department.

All these things make for a game with a much more depth and a much higher skill ceiling. I played Perfect Dark as a kid, and I will always cherish that game. DOOM, on the other hand, I didn't play until I was an adult, and I still think it's probably the greatest game ever made.

>> No.4280815

>>4280790
Not him, but while I appreciate what you're saying, Doom and GE/PD are chalk and cheese. Seriously, one of the core design rules in these games is that all enemies should die from a single shot to the head from any weapon. The entire ideology behind these games is nothing like Doom. Can you imagine if Doom's entire cast of enemies died from a single headshot from the weakest weapon in the game? Because that's the realism-focused design approach of those games.

>> No.4280817

>>4280790
Doom is better than pretty much everything.

On the other hand, GE/PD have better single player games than Quake and Unreal.

>> No.4280881

>>4280694
Sorry, with all your bait talk I must have mixed you up with the other troll.

>>4278159
>>4279652
>>4280167
>>4278150
>>4278059

Apologies if you didn't get any (you)s it all blends together sometimes.

>> No.4280883

>>4280790
Goldeneye and Perfect Dark have way better level design than the abstract autistic maze non-design of Doom. You actually have real locations, sense of progression, actual objectives.

>> No.4280886

>>4280883
>You actually have real locations, sense of progression, actual objectives.
Doom is in Hell, there's totally a sense of progression and there are objectives. If it's not on earth with humans you can't use your imagination?

>> No.4280890

>>4280886
Go play a game with real level design for once. Then you'll see what shit Doom is.

>> No.4280921

>>4280890
Oy vey what is wrong with you people?

>> No.4280923 [DELETED] 

>>4280883
>>4280886
>>4280890

Every level of Doom is the same location. So they're right that PD and GE win in terms of feeling like an actual location

Golden Eye should be compared to Half Life as it came out around the same time. Perfect Dark should be compared to Unreal. Doing so reveals both games are primitive and inferior in just about every feature except their objectives. I am speaking in single player.

If you wanted to compare multi-player Golden Eye would get compared to Quake or Quake 2 and Perfect Dark to unreal tournament. Both console games suck in this department because of the split screen.

>> No.4280925 [DELETED] 

>>4280923
*edit

Golden eye's multiplayer should also be compared to unreal tournament. They came out around the same time while Quake was an early thing.

>> No.4280927

>>4280883
>>4280886
>>4280890

Every level of Doom is the same location. So they're right that PD and GE win in terms of feeling like an actual location

Golden Eye should be compared to Half Life as it came out around the same time. Perfect Dark should be compared to Unreal. Doing so reveals both games are primitive and inferior in just about every feature except their objectives. I am speaking in single player.

If you wanted to compare multi-player Golden Eye and Perfect Dark should be compared to unreal tournament. (lol split screen)

>> No.4280928

>>4280923
I don't think anyone is trying to say GE or PD are good for multiplayer. It's the campaigns they like.

>> No.4280965

>>4280928
I remember years ago before the quality of FPS on consoles improved the multiplayer was talked about as much if not more than the campaign

>> No.4280979

>>4280927
good job still comparing shooters which are nothing alike

>> No.4280994

>>4280979
>D-don't compare my game to stuff on the PC I mean I know the thread is asking them to be treated with respect b-but to compare them. It's not like I'm doing just because the conclusions would say they arn't that great!

>> No.4281004

>>4280994
>super mario bros is trash compared to contra cause you don't rooty toot enemies
this is how stupid you sound

>> No.4281019

>>4280965
Sure, back then when if you didn't have a pc it was the only real option there was. Most of this thread has been talking about single player though.

>> No.4281023

>>4281004
Well what does Perfect Dark and Golden Eye have over Unreal and Half Life other than the objectives?

If someone said Mario had no shooting you could say that it does have better secrets and more complex jump physics.

>> No.4281026
File: 19 KB, 999x1232, latest[2].png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4281026

>>4280883
>level design should accommodate realistic locales rather than gameplay

Nice meme, famm. No level from Goldeneye or Perfect Dark is even close to being as beautifully laid out as Odyssey Of Noises from The Plutonia Experiment. Streets from Goldeneye is rudimentary by comparison, and I say that as someone who likes Goldeneye.

>> No.4281035

>>4281026
Looks like a bunch of shit. And I've played it too so I can say it IS shit. Why don't you go play fucking pong that's an all-gameplay zero-aesthetics game. Practically every genre in the 90s had already figured out level design. Platformers, shooting games, beat em ups, RPGs, adventure games, etc. But not fucking FPS. They were stuck in the dungeon crawler level design.

>> No.4281040

>>4281023
other than objectives, better stealth, gadgets, selection of weaponry, shooting mechanics feel more satisfying (e.g. enemy shot reactions), actual rewards for speedrunning, larger variety of multiplayer modes, and difficulty settings done much better.

you will probably deny some if not all of these thanks to your shit taste and ignorance though :^)

>> No.4281045

>>4281035
Not him but you're into just pure shitposting now.

>> No.4281048
File: 14 KB, 999x590, MasterLevels_TitanManor_map[1].png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4281048

>>4281035
But the dungeon crawler level design of DOOM is a huge part of what makes the game so great in the first place. It turns the map into an actual puzzle to be solved. Too many levels of Perfect Dark are just straight lines to the goal, with copypasted enemies in identical firefights. It's fine for what it is, but DOOM is far more cerebral and varied.

Look at this beauty of a map, Titan Manor. The whole map is one big puzzle, with powerful demons along the way trying to prevent you from solving it. Outside the manor are hordes of demons trying to get in, and you stand no chance fighting them in the darkness. At the end of the level, you find the light switch, and solve a puzzle to get the BFG, and you are finally capable of raining hell down on them. What Perfect Dark level comes even close to matching this level of complexity?

>> No.4281059

>>4281048
Shit. You don't understand what level design is all about. KYS.

>> No.4281061

>>4281040
>selection of weaponry
What do those games have over Unreal? GE has no secondary, a few explosives and a bunch of hit scans. PD has half the secondary fires being lame and still nothing as neat as the goo cannon other neat guns

as for 'gadgets' that's really just an extension of objectives isn't it? same with the thing about difficulty settings.

No dodge roll. Worst enemy variety. less open levels. Just objectives, that's all its got

>actual rewards for speedrunning
Oh man you're a riot

> larger variety of multiplayer modes
If you want to talk multiplayer Unreal Tournament has more stuff than both games COMBINED and thats not even counting the mods the game supported!

>> No.4281076

>>4281059
Weak bait

>> No.4281095

>>4281076
You want a fucking Mensa membership for solving your doom level "puzzle"? Nobel prize? Fields medal?

>> No.4281097

>>4281061
>GE has no secondary, a few explosives and a bunch of hit scans
half life has 14 weapons
unreal has 10 weapons with secondary fire
goldeneye has 28 weapons
perfect dark has 35 weapons with secondary fire

>as for 'gadgets' that's really just an extension of objectives isn't it? same with the thing about difficulty settings.
not really, no

>No dodge roll
it has corner lean though (GE possibly invented it)
>less open levels
hah not at all, the levels in unreal were pretend open with large spaces that all led down the same path, instead of the organic real architecture in GE/PD

>If you want to talk multiplayer Unreal Tournament has more stuff than both games COMBINED
Lmao it's pretty funny how many PC games you have to trot out to defeat the evil GE/PD combo, but that's actually blatantly false as far as PD goes anyway (both PD and UT have pretty similar amount of MP options) particularly once you factor in the co-op and counter-op, not bad for a game which doesn't focus solely on multi

>thats not even counting the mods the game supported!
you do realize there are mods for PD now right

>> No.4281109
File: 21 KB, 1055x535, tnt21[1].gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4281109

>>4281059
Here's an example of what I think of as good level design. In TNT Evilution, there is a level called Administration Center. Immediately at the start, you are presented with this central room consisting of a pit filled with acid. First time playing it, I jumped in and was immediately ambushed by a horde of hellknights. The fight is by no means impossible, but it's brutally punishing, and I died like a bitch. Second attempt, I found a path along the side of the room. Following through the air ducts, I came out on top of the walkway along the perimeter of the acid room. Here, I had a clear vantage point of the horde of hellknights, and I could easily take them out from a distance with rockets. It felt very satisfying, like I had outsmarted the level.

This is what I call good level design, and DOOM excels at this kind of strategic approach to dangerous situations. Perfect Dark simply doesn't have this kind of gameplay. You just shoot palette swapped dudes with machine guns before they shoot you.

>> No.4281116

>>4281109
>You just shoot palette swapped dudes with machine guns before they shoot you.
How many people in this thread are gonna demonstrate to the world that they didn't play Perfect Dark on Perfect Agent?

>> No.4281129

>>4281116
I have, and I beat it as a child. It's still not as deep and complex as DOOM. I'm not saying DOOM is the deepest game ever made, but it's far more complex than Perfect Dark.

>> No.4281164

>>4281129
>I have, and I beat it as a child
Screenshots or it didn't happen

>> No.4281207
File: 23 KB, 500x351, mission17_18[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4281207

>>4281164
Funny. Alright, how's this?

The final level, Skedar Ruins, which I really like btw, is piss easy, even on Perfect Agent. You can freely use the secondary mode of the Callisto NTG from the start of the level, as it obliterates the Skedar, and you will find something equally good once you run out to replace it. You are tasked to plant three beacons on three pillars, which are used as recon for an upcoming air strike. There are five pillars, so you have to use the radar to find the three target pillars. However, if you destroy the two non-target pillars with your devastator, you will be awarded two Phoenix pistols. This uses the same ammo as the Falcon Scope, which essentially renders the Falcon less than useless as a combat weapon for this level, which is good, because it doesn't do much against armored Skedar troopers. This is only to be used as a sacrifice. For the first half of the level, you use the Callisto, for the second half, you use the Phoenix, both with the secondary fire modes, and the rest is a piece of cake. Great level, beautifully evocative and atmospheric, but incredibly easy if you know how it works.

Is that proof enough for you? I probably know more about the game than you, familia. It's great, but DOOM is better.

>> No.4281242

>>4281207
Nice copy paste from walkthrough, but do you know what really gave it away?

>The final level, Skedar Ruins
>final level
If you were trying to say the game was easy, you would have picked a harder level than this one :^)

>> No.4281249

>>4281242
It's my favorite level. The hardest level is probably Maian SOS, due to its sheer length and low starting HP. And please, where is it copypasted from? Should be easy to find with search engines.

>> No.4281252

>>4277452
they can't cuz they jealous
goldeneye / pd have personality and swag

>> No.4281253

>>4281242
And regardless, is it really that hard for you to believe that someone played both Perfect Dark and DOOM, and that they still find DOOM superior?

>> No.4281303
File: 23 KB, 420x321, jo.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4281303

>>4278802

The "upgraded" faces in the remaster are so awful. New Joanna looks like a skank. They needed to keep the superior dyke Joanna.

>> No.4281424

>>4277452
Thief 1&2 are better than Goldeneye and Perfect Dark.

>> No.4281728

>>4280927
>Golden Eye should be compared to Half Life as it came out around the same time.
Half-Life, like Half-Life 2, feels fundamentally shitty to play. There's a reason Nightfire PC is one of the weakest Bond games ever made -- it was built using GoldSrc and inherited that engine's shitty gunfeel and shitty AI and shitty animation.

>> No.4281734

>>4281048
>Too many levels of Perfect Dark are just straight lines to the goal
Name a single level in Perfect Dark that fits this profile.

>> No.4281742

Goldeneye was the first truly cinematic FPS game. You fire a gun and walls literally shower debris. You shoot metal and it sparks just like in a movie. You shoot glass, and it shatters. Enemies shoot at you, and their bullets whizz and whine past. When you fire a gun at a wall, a good 5 or 6 different sound effects are playing, some random, in order to make it feel good and right.

A shitload of work went into making guns feel tactile. Enemy hit responses are part of that.

>> No.4281763
File: 182 KB, 256x364, Perfect_Dark_Zero_Coverart.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4281763

What went wrong?

>> No.4281765

>>4281763
Released post 9/11.

>> No.4281785

>>4277452
it never was a bad game, only nu/v/-/b/ecoming /pol/ and its eternal hateboner against nintendo and anything that isn't obsidian feeds it

though both ips now doesn't belong to nintendo any longer, no one had the courage to remake them, even Goldeneye for Source2 never went forward with SP because they are scared shitless of someone suing them, even a Perfect Dark remake nowadays would be accepted, though a certain redhead jew prefer sinking their money on yearly CoD SJW games.

as for the game, it was revolutionary as fuck, it had its issues but it was the last breath of the N64 before Sony whooped its ass and later Dreamcast.

>>4280790
>Plutonia
>Level Design
>A room FULL of fucking Chaingunners, then next room, A FUCKING ARCHVILLE ON THE HIGHEST OPEN SPOT GIVING YOU THE FINGER, LAST ROOM SURPRISE a CYBERDEMON FOLLOWED BY 2 REVENANTS, Also said 2 revenants are on a high spot so they can spam rockets on you on sight

>> No.4281805

>>4281763
I honestly don't think its as bad as some make it out to be. But definitely not as good as the original.

>> No.4282003

>>4281763
Perfect Dark: Zero was afflicted by creative indecision, extremely troubled development, and Rareware frantically trying to stay contemporary.

I was playing some GE earlier. One design element that struck me was dry firing. When you hold down the trigger, once the magazine is empty, Bond will keep pulling the trigger, making a clicking sound. He won't reload the weapon unless you press B or release the trigger and pull it again. Did any earlier FPS games do this?

>> No.4282018

>>4281097
How's the quality of the weapons. tell me why half life's weapons are worst than GE and Unreals worst thand PD's? Counting weapons proves nothing man.

Every single of the GE guns are just the same hitscan weapons with varrying damage and ammo for instance or an eplosive. Unreal has basically all those functions on just the Flak Cannon alone! Perfect Dark was better but still a far cry.

>it has corner lean though
Fair enough. Now what about aiming in general? What was cooler aiming with the mouse in Unreal or with the shitty controller in Perfect Dark.

>multiplayer
"counter co-op" ok that's a valid point.
Now as for the modes themself. Here's the big killing blow. Split-screen fucking sucks. Even without mentioning that can you seriously say PD or GE had better vs mode than Unreal Tournament?

>you do realize there are mods for PD now right
And they are pitiful compared to what Unreal tournament has. One of the mods adds mouse support...something Unreal CAME with. So now 15 years later it's catching up...

>> No.4282046

>>4282018
>Now as for the modes themself. Here's the big killing blow. Split-screen fucking sucks.
The XBLA version has online multiplayer.

>Every single of the GE guns are just the same hitscan weapons with varrying damage and ammo for instance or an explosive.
When a game is focused on realistic weapons largely based on existing ones, what exactly are you expecting? A lot of your complaints seem to boil down to "They made a realistic FPS games where most guns are pretty much the same and all the enemies are just men and women in uniforms."

>> No.4282883

Blake stone did all of that years before.

>> No.4282946

>>4277458
The graphics are fine (not like oh perfectly clear, but neither is Doom). PD is definitely far superior to GE in every way.

>>4277550
>makes them actually pretty good
No, it makes them more playable not pretty good. They're still mediocre as fuck games with those improvements. It's definitely better than playing them on the consoles. They're better than Halo though I guess so there's that.

>> No.4282963
File: 2.87 MB, 640x480, PD2.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4282963

>>4280392
>but in Perfect Dark multiplayer it's a primary tactic. You plaster your immediate vicinity with mines, place a laptop gun, and then wait, crouched, with a K7 Avenger.

Until everyone is doing it and then no one's doing anything because all the players are just waiting on their sides of the map for the other camper.

It's frowned upon in FPS because it's unfun shit for the exact reasons mentioned. It slows down a game hard. Also, your argument for preferring objectives goes out the window with PD DM because there aren't any. You're discussing two different portions of FPS games multiplayer and singleplayer and thus people will play whichever they feel interested in. But when you hop in a multiplayer match and everyone basically refuses to play the game really, why bother.

>> No.4282972

>>4280523
And what about the always 60+ Duke3D of the era. I sure as fuck didn't play Quake because of it's absymal framerate, but Quake was designed to be extended, which is why it got 3D card support, high resolution support etc...

Though if you wanted to make an argument for framerate in FPS games, Doom was what you want since it was capped at 35 FPS period no matter

>> No.4282994
File: 10 KB, 522x580, image004.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4282994

>>4280594
Unreal was a bad engine for 3D acceleration. Quake is easily excused as it was released before proper OpenGL accelerators were out. Because Quake 3 ditched the software renderer, it could focus entirely on acceleration, and benchmarks really show this.

>> No.4283040
File: 25 KB, 1024x768, dark-perfect-dark-33534917-1024-768.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
4283040

>>4281303
All they did was make her face look like how all her renders back then looked...she always looked like that.

>> No.4283054

>>4282046
Your defense seems to boil down to "they did what they were trying to do, that means it's good", as if the dev's apparent vision for a boring FPS is a good thing.

>> No.4284654

>>4277452

I've played most FPS games that PC elitists praise, and none of them come close to being better than perfect dark.

every single doom, quake, half life, duke nukem, star wars, battlefield, bioshock, alien vs predator, shadow warrior...

the only ones I haven't played yet are system shock 2 and deus ex (the first one)

>> No.4284665

>>4281763

2 weapons limit
weird and buggy physics instead of cool animations
TERRIBLE level design
difficult spikes all over the place
less weapons that are boring and not as creative as in the first game
ugly art style
less options and customization on multiplayer

and yet I did beat it on dark agent because I fucking love the first perfect dark. Zero on the other hand is a train wreck

>> No.4285614

>>4284654
Is talking to yourself all you have in life?

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