/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.4265624]

>most powerful 2d console ever
>can't do transparencies
pick one

[Anonymous No.4265634]

>>4265624
>most powerful 2d console ever
Nobody actually believes this meme anyway. N64 actually had better 2D capabilities. Good luck getting visual fidelity like pic related on Saturn.

[Anonymous No.4267229]

>>4265634
why do you think it couldn't?

[Anonymous No.4267302]

>>4265634

[Anonymous No.4267305]

>>4265624
>can't do transparencies
OH WOW AMAZING POST, I'VE TOTALLY NEVER READ THIS BEFORE

you can poke some dots in the sprites and let the tv do the rest of the work, no harm done, who cares

[Anonymous No.4267337]

[Anonymous No.4268857]

>>4267305
>>4267337
really fires the neurons

[Anonymous No.4268875]

Finally going to pull the trigger on a saturn.

Do I import a JP one? or do I go with a standard NTSC-UC?

I'll probably mod it with a chip (or if there are some action replay shenanigans I can do or SD card mods I'd prefer that)

[Anonymous No.4268878]

>>4267337
Shopped.

[Anonymous No.4268892]

>faggot doesn't know about the neo geo

[Anonymous No.4269253]

>>4268878
You're either a retard or bad at trolling, which is also retarded.

[Anonymous No.4269269]

>>4265624
>Saturn doesn't have hardware transparency

What drives a person to just go on the internet and spread lies?

[Anonymous No.4269303]

>>4265624
Of course the Saturn can do transparencies you dunce, unfortunately it goes about it in an arse about way and you're limited on where those transparencies happen.

[Anonymous No.4269464]

Got your transparencies right here OP.

[Anonymous No.4269471]

>>4265634
Good luck getting anything that isn't a dithered mess out of the N64, period...

[Anonymous No.4269547]

>>4265624
Any console that can do 3d can do 2d, so technically the xbox one x is the most powerful 2d console ever. If we're staying retro then it's the PC or the Dreamcast.

[Anonymous No.4269605]

>>4265624
As a game dev I gotta say you don't really need transparency in a game. In anyway look at guardian heroes, the cape of the girl is perfect transparent.

There are many way of calculating or faking transparency. Method a would be to draw the area with transparency pixel by pixel in realtime and calculate the alpha mix of colors in order of their z index. Second method is dithering. THird method and I think best is if you got a high framerate like 30fps or better 60fps you can flicker the sprite on and off and thus fake transparency cleaner than with dithering. You of course can also combine dithering and flickering by switching the missing pixel position of the checkerboard. Thought I like full flickering better, as dithering always looks grainy. Both workarounds get troubles with multiple layers of transparency overlaying.

[Anonymous No.4269607]

>>4269605
HEre is a video to confirm super perfect transparency on saturn:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJE2qXtH7lE

(3min 20sec) The pink cape of the girl is transparent

[Anonymous No.4269681]

>>4269269
Underrated.

[Anonymous No.4270385]

>>4265634
I don't see how hard it would be. Seems pretty easy actually.

[Anonymous No.4270540]

>>4269471
developers could disable that filter. With a gameshark you could in many n64 games too.

[Anonymous No.4270596]

>>4269605
>As a game dev
kek, no one asked you for you "AMA" or whatever you people call it

[Anonymous No.4271073]

>>4269605
>high framerate
>like 30fps
>or better 60fps
30 is WAY low, and 60 is just standard. You should be shooting for 120-144

[Anonymous No.4271082]

>>4270596
so what's the problem? is it that he's passionate about what he likes or do you find it annoying that he stated his occupation first and then spat some knowledge he learned from studying the craft?

cause either way he's still right, and it looks like you're pissed about him being a game dev

[Anonymous No.4271375]

>>4265624

[Anonymous No.4271401]

>>4265624
>>most powerful 2d console ever
PFFFFFFFFFFF
Not even close

[Anonymous No.4271404]

>>4271401
Only in RAM and load times. Dragon Force sprite count alone completely rapes the Neo Geo.

[Anonymous No.4271407]

>>4271404
then why did every 32 bit console struggle so much with good neo ports? the neo allowed expansive chips in the carts aswell.

[Anonymous No.4271409]

>>4271404
Wrong picture?
Dragon force is ass

[Anonymous No.4271412]

>>4271407
Because of RAM and load times. The Geo could stream graphics immediately from any point in the fuckhuge (for the 90s) C rom.
>>4271409
I'm talking about sprite count not game design. The CPS1 also has the Geo beaten in sprite count due to having a background layer

[Anonymous No.4271413]

>>4271409
There's always, I don't know, Dodonpachi and Battle Garegga if you want a better game with large sprite counts.

[Anonymous No.4271417]

>>4271413
Don't
It's a fact Neogeo is superior with 2D graphic
It's useless to rewrite history

[Anonymous No.4271421]

>>4271417
You see, beat'em ups on the Neo Geo like Mutant Nation or Sengoku for example could only handle 4 enemy sprites not counting the two players on screen at once due to the background layer costing sprite slots. Capcom's CPS1 had dedicated background hardware which allowed them to go comfortably WELL over that limit. Shmups on the Geo were also crippled because of this.

[Anonymous No.4271426]

>>4271417
Backgrounds on the Neo Geo had to be composed entirely out of sprites which on one hand allowed cool tricks like animation and zoom effects but on the other cost CPU power and sprite slots.

[Anonymous No.4271429]

>>4271417
You can try this out, load Blazing Star in 2 player mode, get both players at max power and button mash to full power, enemies will simply REFUSE to spawn because there are so many bullets on screen there aren't any more available sprites to render the enemies.
My point is that the sprite count on the Neo Geo is limited.

[Anonymous No.4271472]

>>4271375
quads were a mistake

[Anonymous No.4271675]

>>4265624
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_OchOV_WDg

[Anonymous No.4271683]

>>4271417
Neogeo isn't superior for 2d graphics, it only had more ROM space for animations. Saturn has way more features and is only limited by memory.

It really would've needed additional VRAM. Not just a generic ram cart that acts as a 3rd bank of main memory, but specifically VRAM expansion.

[Anonymous No.4271715]

Sorry for changing the subject, but when does Deep Fear get good? So far I'm walking around corridors that look almost identical, loads of cut scenes, and the map is utter garbage. Only thing I like are the controls.

[Anonymous No.4271720]

>>4265624


>average /vr/ hipster
>doesn't require higher brain functions

[Anonymous No.4271730]

>>4271683
>Saturn has way more features and is only limited by memory.
>is only limited by memory.
And that's why NG is superior, case closed

[Anonymous No.4271741]

>>4271720
Saturn fanboy on pic?

[Anonymous No.4271752]

>>4271730

[Anonymous No.4271765]

>>4271752
>The same reason PSX is considered inferior to Saturn is not the reason Saturn is inferior to NG

AYYYYYYYYYY

[Anonymous No.4271998]

>>4271401
Squandered on sub par fighters though.

[Anonymous No.4273017]

>>4265624
>most powerful 2D console ever
nah
it's pretty good at it, with some very flexible sprite and background hardware, but it's not the most powerful

>can't do transparencies
Saturn can! It can either...
>a: each graphics layer can be transparently blended, this is done when the screen gets drawn by VDP2, this doesn't hit the framebuffer
this has an issue -- it's done on a per layer basis, and since it never hits the framebuffer, using this on VDP1 stuff means that you have a set of pixels that are drawn opaquely like normal, and then transparency is set
>or b: VDP1 can do a 50% blend or shadow transparency effect to anything on the framebuffer. This has issues though -- due to overdraw, opaque lines appear on downscaled/skewed sprites, and because it only affects the framebuffer, this doesn't propagate to anything drawn on VDP2
if you only use VDP1 (read: draw like you would on the PS1), you can do this and get away with it fully

there's also
>c: fuck real transparency, the 50% mesh pattern looks just like an actual 50% blend over composite -- and it's even better in hi-res mode

would have been nice if add blending was a color calculation mode for VDP1
you probably could just read+write to the framebuffer yourself to do it in small doses, but that has the same issue as actual VDP1 blending -- it doesn't affect VDP2, it's only for stuff on the framebuffer

Overall, it's not good at it for 3D stuff, but it's fairly useful for 2D stuff. VDP1 transparency isn't great, but it's useful for shadows. VDP2 transparency is ace, and Burning Rangers uses it to maximum effect, even in 3D (whoever wrote the Burning Rangers polygon sort should be hit though, that game flickers like a motherfucker).

>>4265634
>posts fucking Yoshi's Story
admittedly there's a couple of things it does that are pretty damn impressive, but you could reasonably do all of it on Saturn

[Anonymous No.4273027]

>>4271407
Incompetent developers, and not taking advantage of 4mb carts on the Saturn.

[Anonymous No.4273057]

>>4273017
>would have been nice if add blending was a color calculation mode for VDP1

Technically, that was exactly what it was.

>you probably could just read+write to the framebuffer yourself to do it in small doses

iirc you can DMA read from framebuffer, not sure if you can write too though - could be that only the VDP1 can write to it.

The big problem with VDP1 wasn't the pixel rewrite, it was that
- the VDP1 was stupid fucking slow
- VDP1 blending was opaque on top of VDP2 layers
- it handled palettes in a way that made it impossible to blend anything other than VDP2, and difficult to do gouraud shading
- if you used VDP1 blending, then you couldn't position any sprite behind or above a VDP2 layer. Entire framebuffer had to be in the same position.
You could also do VDP1 blending and VDP2 blending simultaneously, on the same pixel, but then again the entire framebuffer had to be set transparent.

Basically the VDP2 was the real powerful chip in the console, but using it meant you had to gimp your sprites into a format that specifically caters for the VDP2. And THIS is what made it complex to program for, not the twin SH2s, and not the quads. This is why SOTN looks like ass on the Saturn too.

Would've been easy to solve too, though. Give the VDP1 2kb palette ram, and make it write everything to framebuffer in 12bit RGB, with the remaining bits are used for priority and transparency enable. This would've solved every single problem, except for speed, but now you can intermix all VDP2 layers freely and make it easier to offload graphics to it.

[Anonymous No.4273080]

>>4273057
What would a SOTN built to take advantage of VDP2 look like in terms of graphics decisions and world construction?

[Anonymous No.4273093]

>>4273057
>Technically, that was exactly what it was.
could have swore the only VDP1 color calculation modes were gouraud, shadow, and 50% blend (basically, average), I'm pretty sure it doesn't do straight additive blending
reading the VDP1 manual gives me the biggest headache, so maybe I'm just missing something

>- the VDP1 was stupid fucking slow
it's really not that bad, particularly for 2D purposes
>- it handled palettes in a way that made it impossible to blend anything other than VDP2, and difficult to do gouraud shading
shit, I didn't even know you could do gouraud shading to paletted sprites

>Give the VDP1 2kb palette ram, and make it write everything to framebuffer in 12bit RGB, with the remaining bits are used for priority and transparency enable. This would've solved every single problem, except for speed, but now you can intermix all VDP2 layers freely and make it easier to offload graphics to it.
12bit rgb isn't that great -- that's 4096 colors
you know, like on the Game Gear

honestly, the whole transparency mess is probably sheer inexperience and it being an afterthought (shit, the Model 2 doesn't have any transparency support at all)

[Anonymous No.4273128]

>>4273080
>What would a SOTN built to take advantage of VDP2 look like in terms of graphics decisions and world construction?

Look at the backgrounds in Cotton Boomerang, Radiant Silvergun, Silhouette Mirage. Something like that.

The clouds over the moon could've used the rotating zoom layer to look much better either way. Maybe even the cathedral too, though there it would look different.

[Anonymous No.4273151]

>>4273093
>could have swore the only VDP1 color calculation modes were

Oh, sorry, you are right. I confused it with the Gouraud mode, which is additive/subtractive.

>it's really not that bad, particularly for 2D purposes

No, even for those, it is bad. It's just that the VDP2 helps out a lot for 2d, especially for blending. Taito games got superb ports because they blended the same way.

>I didn't even know you could do gouraud shading to paletted sprites

You could, and then it would increase the framebuffer value as if it was RGB, screwing up your palette index and priority/transparency bits.
There was one trick however. If you used red colour shading only, then it only affected the first 5 bits of your pixel, which in most sprite modes was the palette bank/index. So you prepare your shade as extra palette entries and voila.

The cubes in the cd player are in fact using that. Pretty sure that all the Lobotomy games do that too.

>12bit rgb isn't that great -- that's 4096 colors

Saturn games very often used palette sprites to save on texture memory, limiting them to max 4096 sprite colours plus background transparency. If they used palette shading, then the precomputed lightning removes entries from that (plus it is difficult to set up).

So really, games would've had the same colour depth. Except then they could do lightning MUCH easier, freely intermix backgrounds and sprites including all transparency modes, do sprite+sprite+background blending on a per sprite basis, etc.... And the VDP2 computes final colour, so you could still put, say, a truecolor background behind everything. And blend it together. Selectively.

SOTN could look identical to the PSX version that way, effects wise (Saturn would still need a 256px wide mode for it to be pixel perfect).

>shit, the Model 2 doesn't have any transparency support at all

Yeah but it used medium res, so meshes looked good enough. And the Model 2 was a Model 1 plus textures anyway.

[Anonymous No.4273213]

>>4273151
please remove your spacing

[Anonymous No.4273224]

>>4273213
>could have swore the only VDP1 color calculation modes were Oh, sorry, you are right. I confused it with the Gouraud mode, which is additive/subtractive. >it's really not that bad, particularly for 2D purposes No, even for those, it is bad. It's just that the VDP2 helps out a lot for 2d, especially for blending. Taito games got superb ports because they blended the same way. >I didn't even know you could do gouraud shading to paletted sprites You could, and then it would increase the framebuffer value as if it was RGB, screwing up your palette index and priority/transparency bits. There was one trick however. If you used red colour shading only, then it only affected the first 5 bits of your pixel, which in most sprite modes was the palette bank/index. So you prepare your shade as extra palette entries and voila. The cubes in the cd player are in fact using that. Pretty sure that all the Lobotomy games do that too. >12bit rgb isn't that great -- that's 4096 colors Saturn games very often used palette sprites to save on texture memory, limiting them to max 4096 sprite colours plus background transparency. If they used palette shading, then the precomputed lightning removes entries from that (plus it is difficult to set up). So really, games would've had the same colour depth. Except then they could do lightning MUCH easier, freely intermix backgrounds and sprites including all transparency modes, do sprite+sprite+background blending on a per sprite basis, etc.... And the VDP2 computes final colour, so you could still put, say, a truecolor background behind everything. And blend it together. Selectively. SOTN could look identical to the PSX version that way, effects wise (Saturn would still need a 256px wide mode for it to be pixel perfect). >shit, the Model 2 doesn't have any transparency support at all Yeah but it used medium res, so meshes looked good enough. And the Model 2 was a Model 1 plus textures anyway.

[Anonymous No.4273225]

>>4273224
>>4273213
>couldhavesworetheonlyVDP1colorcalculationmodeswereOh,sorry,youareright.IconfuseditwiththeGouraudmode,whichisadditive/subtractive.>it'sreallynotthatbad,particularlyfor2DpurposesNo,evenforthose,itisbad.It'sjustthattheVDP2helpsoutalotfor2d,especiallyforblending.Taitogamesgotsuperbportsbecausetheyblendedthesameway.>Ididn'tevenknowyoucoulddogouraudshadingtopalettedspritesYoucould,andthenitwouldincreasetheframebuffervalueasifitwasRGB,screwingupyourpaletteindexandpriority/transparencybits.Therewasonetrickhowever.Ifyouusedredcolourshadingonly,thenitonlyaffectedthefirst5bitsofyourpixel,whichinmostspritemodeswasthepalettebank/index.Soyouprepareyourshadeasextrapaletteentriesandvoila.Thecubesinthecdplayerareinfactusingthat.PrettysurethatalltheLobotomygamesdothattoo.>12bitrgbisn'tthatgreat--that's4096colorsSaturngamesveryoftenusedpalettespritestosaveontexturememory,limitingthemtomax4096spritecoloursplusbackgroundtransparency.Iftheyusedpaletteshading,thentheprecomputedlightningremovesentriesfromthat(plusitisdifficulttosetup).Soreally,gameswould'vehadthesamecolourdepth.ExceptthentheycoulddolightningMUCHeasier,freelyintermixbackgroundsandspritesincludingalltransparencymodes,dosprite+sprite+backgroundblendingonaperspritebasis,etc....AndtheVDP2computesfinalcolour,soyoucouldstillput,say,atruecolorbackgroundbehindeverything.Andblendittogether.Selectively.SOTNcouldlookidenticaltothePSXversionthatway,effectswise(Saturnwouldstillneeda256pxwidemodeforittobepixelperfect).>shit,theModel2doesn'thaveanytransparencysupportatallYeahbutitusedmediumres,somesheslookedgoodenough.AndtheModel2wasaModel1plustexturesanyway.

[Anonymous No.4273250]

>>4273017
was 3do fz10 a more powerful 2d console?

[Anonymous No.4273279]

>>4273213 HEYLOOKITSTHEFUCKINGPARAGRAPHPOLICEIBETITWOULDBEWISEOFUSETOIGNOREALLRULESOFGRAMMARANDPRESENTATIONTOAVOIDWALLSOFTEXTSOHEDOESNTGETTRANNYTRIGGEREDLIKEALITTLEBITCH

[Anonymous No.4273313]

>>4269471
>Good luck getting anything that isn't a dithered mess out of the N64, period...
What the fuck are you even talking about? N64 games looked great.

[Anonymous No.4273314]

>>4273250
>was 3do fz10 a more powerful 2d console?

Wasn't 3do pure framebuffer? If so, it is weaker than the PSX at 2d.

[Anonymous No.4273327]

>>4267229
>>4273017
You are fucking kidding yourselves if you think the Saturn could handle a game like Yoshi's Story. 60fps, incredibly fluid animations, tons of sprites on-screen, highly detailed backgrounds/textures, transparency (as mentioned in the OP), great effects, the works. Saturn would absolutely keel over trying to run this shit. Not one single 2D game on the Saturn looks half as good as Yoshi's Story. Tell me more about "haha dude Saturn had hidden power, devs just never got the chance to use it haha xD". The Saturn was a piece of shit and you know it.

[Anonymous No.4274520]

>>4273327
>. 60fps, incredibly fluid animations, tons of sprites on-screen, highly detailed backgrounds/textures, transparency (as mentioned in the OP), great effects, the works

Cotton Boomerang has all of that.

[Anonymous No.4274525]

>>4274520
>Cotton Boomerang has all of that.
>GBA-tier graphics
Lmao.

[Anonymous No.4274530]

>>4274520
Yeah Cotton 2 even constructed sprites out of multiple objects for each limb, etc. Right in the first boss you can see that in action.

[Anonymous No.4274532]

>>4274530
Too bad both games look like complete shit.

[Anonymous No.4274538]

>>4274520
Or for that matter, Guardian Heroes or Silhouette Mirage.

[Anonymous No.4274539]

>>4274532
I've seen a lot worse. I hate how Cotton 2 forces you to grind combo bubbles for health while Cotton Boomerang does not give you any extends, ever.

[Anonymous No.4274540]

>>4274538
>Guardian Heroes
Good game but doesn't look anything close to as good as YS.
>Silhouette Mirage.
Yeah, no.

[Anonymous No.4274543]

>>4274540
Yoshi Story had silky smooth animation, I'll give you that. It's pretty great.

[Anonymous No.4274546]

>>4274540
You've never seen Silhouette Mirage if you think it has worse sprite work than Yoshi's Story.

The game is a visual cacophony, it's so full of details.

[Anonymous No.4274548]

>>4274546
The sprite work isn't bad but collectively the game looks like ass.

[Anonymous No.4274550]

>>4274540
Thing about Yoshi Story is that they constructed character sprites by grouping and motion tweening a bunch of tinier "limb" sprites together. And it looks amazingly natural in motion, you can barely tell yoshi is made of smaller parts at all.

[Anonymous No.4274554]

>>4274550
That's pretty awesome actually. That's some insanely detailed sprite work.

[Anonymous No.4274557]

>>4274548
Treasure had a unique style. It's an acquired taste

[Anonymous No.4274560]

>>4273327
>60fps, incredibly fluid animations, tons of sprites on-screen, highly detailed backgrounds/textures, transparency

dude, launch games on the Saturn had that.

[Anonymous No.4274562]

The Treasure art style was fucking weird. I like it, it's a mix of grotesque and cute

[Anonymous No.4274563]

>>4274557
Treasure has some great looking games, Silhouette just isn't one of them.
>>4274560
Except that looks pretty shit. Rayman looks better than that.

[Anonymous No.4274564]

[Anonymous No.4274572]

>>4274563
>that looks pretty shit
Said every gaming mag ever in 90s when reviewing 2D games.

[Anonymous No.4274593]

>>4274563
>Except that looks pretty shit.

It's a boss fight where the camera zooms out. It happens often, to catch all action on screen, for example when you pick up a giant boulder.

>Rayman looks better than that.

Rayman also looks better than Yoshi's Story.

>>4274554
>>4274550
That's not really impressive considering that it's all CGI. There's almost no effort in generating large sprite sheets like that when all they do is make a lot of screenshots of 3d models. Toy Story on the SNES and Genesis had tons of animation too but nobody in their right mind would say that that game looks better than, I dunno, Metal Slug 3.

[Anonymous No.4274616]

>>4274593
They made special good use of the zoom feature in the frozen cave section of the Glacial Rift level.

[Anonymous No.4274619]

>>4274616