/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.4125162]

Getting into retro gaming, what are the advantages of playing on the console vs playing on another emulator ?

[Anonymous No.4125163]

>>4125162
let me rephrase your question for more productive discussion:

"what are the tradeoffs between emulators and consoles?"

[Anonymous No.4125173]

>>4125162
emulators:
+ cheap
+ portable
+ compact
+ no need for extra stuff in your life, you can use your laptop if you want to
+ every fucking game you want
- input lag
- doesn't look as good

consoles:
+ no input lag
+ if you play em on a crt you get the best visual quality
+ looks cool in your living room
- expensive
- it's stuff
- need to buy (expensive) games
- not portable

[Anonymous No.4125175]

>>4125162
Seeing as youre seriously asking this I'd recommend just going with an emulator

[Anonymous No.4125180]

>>4125173
oh and
console:
+ it's the real deal

forgot that one.

[Anonymous No.4125186]

>>4125173
>>4125180
now my advice:
if you've never owned the original consoles and you're not driven by nostalgia, start with an emulator because you won't know the difference they're honestly not that.

one thing that's essential though is playing with a controller. if you go down the laptop route do yourself a favor and buy a controller or an adapter for one you have. it really makes a huge difference.

[Anonymous No.4125189]

>>4125186
>you won't know the difference they're honestly not that.
you won't know the difference and they're honestly not that bad.*

don't know what happened there.

[Anonymous No.4125193]

>>4125162

Emulators are for people who like to play games. Consoles are for people who think they like games but actually like the collecting/hoarding.

[Anonymous No.4125196]

>>4125193
I'm mostly an emulatorfag and I do hoarding too.
>he doesn't download whole no-intro sets and carefully curate and organize them
>he doesn't use an eyecandy frontend and test different shaders to see what's best for a given console

[Anonymous No.4125202]

>>4125196
>>he doesn't download whole no-intro sets and carefully curate and organize them

Is there a version with NDS roms?

[Anonymous No.4125207]

>>4125186
Absolutely get a controller. The Buffalo one everyone talks about is fine.

Anything PSX or below, emulate with a controller. If you're doing it for the gameplay, you'll never notice a difference.

If you have a few bucks to toss at the hobby, spend it on usability improvements like wireless controllers instead of throwing down a hundred bucks on Earhtbound only to find out that it's a repro cartridge.

[Anonymous No.4125213]

>>4125193
What about people who were born before emulators existed and still keep their systems and games from back then?

[Anonymous No.4125214]

>>4125202
Yeah, but it's split up into a few packs on Archive. Past retro I just download what people recommend to me.

[Anonymous No.4125227]

>>4125213
I was born before the NES and have my childhood originals of many of the retro vidya machines and a respectable library. The maintenance and the space issues get to be a bummer. I have a flawless SNES with original copies of all the main titles (with cleaned contacts and new batteries) and I still play on an rpi3 w/ 8bitdo contollers.

It's fun to bust out the real deal with a multitap to play Super Bomberman and Mario Kart at parties, but other than that it's just a pain.

[Anonymous No.4125246]

How can I beat one of those hard as fuck or bad programmed old shit without save states?
I'm gaming just for fun, not for pissing me off.

[Anonymous No.4125267]

>>4125173
everything has input lag, even crts. Also how does CRT have the best visual quality. Sounds like you don't know what you're talking about

[Anonymous No.4125270]

>>4125246
If you are playing just for fun, don't play "badly programmed shit".

You don't watch arthouse movies "for fun", do you?

[Anonymous No.4125278]

>>4125246
If everyone else that it back in days could do it when they were 7, I guess you could too. Too bad you suck at video games.

[Anonymous No.4125281]

>>4125267
hello newfriend

[Anonymous No.4125285]

>>4125173
"Best visual quality" depends entirely on your display device.
Most emulators will look better on a modern flat-panel than hooking a console to its legacy inputs
(this is because most flat-panels today flat out SUCK at processing analog inputs)

[Anonymous No.4125301]

>>4125246

If you don't find fun in challenge, don't play hard as fuck games.

And don't play "bad programmed" games period, though what you mean by "bad programmed" could be anyone's guess since kids these days like to blame every death on "bad game design" instead of a lack of skill.

[Anonymous No.4125303]

>>4125173
>>4125180
>>4125186
>>4125189
Seconded. I'm a hardwarefag but emulation is definitely convenient, even if it's to try out games you never had or played before before paying much for something that might probably be disappointing. Even if most consoles/handhelds/computers still aren't insanely expensive or hard to find they have climbed up in price and peaked down in availability significantly. This is especially an issue with the NES, SNES and the Gamecube so if you still wanna collect those I hope you've got a huge wallet or some roms and a flashcart. Others like Neo-Geo have always been expensive so definitely try out emulation before that.

It's true that there are still a few differences if you're really into retro gaming like input lag, CRT blur and having stuff physically but unless you're into hoarding or speedrunning you won't have to think about that too much for now.

[Anonymous No.4125305]

>>4125267
but just to spell it out
>everything has input lag
https://byuu.org/articles/latency/
console + crt is lowest lag you'll get. maybe I should have said 'no extra input lag' instead of 'no input lag'.

>Also how does CRT have the best visual quality.
best colors. image is not as harsh and jagged. but ultimately this is a matter of taste.

now stop being a pedantic little shit.

>>4125285
and I said console + crt not emulator + crt or console + flat-panel

[Anonymous No.4125334]

Emulated games will always have some input lag, because they're not running on the bare metal. Rather, the metal is simulated in software, which then has to share hardware resources as just one part of a large and very complex operating system. There are many layers of indirection that simply don't exist on the original hardware.

Also, due to insufficient single-core CPU performance, it's basically impossible to emulate newer (post-16 bit) systems with low-level accuracy, so there's a good chance the games won't run quite like they're supposed to. Problems could range from graphical / audio bugs to broken AI, but it will never be equal to actual hardware.

Playing on old consoles isn't perfect either; if you hook up your NES directly to your HDTV's composite input, the TV will have to automatically scale the 240p signal up to 1080p (or whatever), which will introduce its own input lag. To avoid this, there are external scalers like the Framemeister and OSSC that perform much better than internal scalers. Bottom line is that the best way to experience these pre-HD consoles is by hooking them up to a good CRT.

There's a third option, which is to buy a quality multi-console FPGA simulator system like the Analogue NT mini, which allows you to plug in an SD card with ROMs and play pretty much any 8-bit console in 1080p with total accuracy, no input lag, and tons of customizable settings. (There are also RGB, S-video, and composite outputs if you prefer any of those) It's not cheap, but it sits favorably when compared to the cost of original hardware with a flash cart and possibly an external scaler.

[Anonymous No.4125425]

Once i got real consoles i cant go back
Fuck emulators

[Anonymous No.4125505]

I do lots of both. If you have to ask, just emulate, because the important thing is the games.

[Anonymous No.4125568]

I emulate whenever I can, consoles feel like a gimped experience. Can't even take a screenshot or save whenever I want, much less use any controller I want or remap the controls.

[Anonymous No.4125595]

>>4125162
Consoles are better for nostalgia. That's it.

[Anonymous No.4125701]

I've played emulators for twenty years, having only owned a Sega Master System my whole life (I was kind of poor). I have played a lot of games on especially Super Nintendo emulator. Though I have bought a great deal stuff lately, as you really can't get that nostalgic feel when playing emulators.

[Anonymous No.4125738]

>>4125173
is input lag a meme?

wouldn't consoles have more input lag because the signal has to travel all the way through the wire to the system,

whereas modern computers are way quicker?

[Anonymous No.4125749]

>>4125173
Input lag is a meme.

[Anonymous No.4125784]

>>4125738
>>4125749
https://byuu.org/articles/latency/

it's real but is it noticeable? dunno, I mostly play emulators with my wireless 8bitdo controller and I don't notice anything. but I'm not a pro gamer or a speedrunner either.

[Anonymous No.4126730]

>>4125784
Doesn't matter unless you are autistic about authenticity. I've got all my old hardware in storage and use higan with a ps4 controller because I can't be assed cluttering up my loungeroom. Can still beat SF2 turbo with this setup, so zero fucks given.

[Anonymous No.4128063]

>>4125784
>He is STILL buying the input lag argument

DUDE, if you're not competitively playing a fighting game, which you don't do on an emulator, anyway, then the few ms you missed out on don't make any difference.

[Anonymous No.4128070]

>>4125784
Get an idea of how small one millisecond is.
https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime

[Anonymous No.4128075]

>>4125173
>if you play em on a crt you get the best visual quality

Was I doing it wrong then, because when I still had an old CRT and played my Genesis on it, it looked pretty blurry and crappy, whereas on an emulator, everything looked really sharp and crisp. Compared with the same game.

Model 2 genesis, if that makes any difference.

[Anonymous No.4128079]

>>4125749
It's not a meme, but it's definitely overblown in most cases.

Most games are perfectly playable with the lag, but then others that require split second timing like punch-Out's later characters, not so much.

Then you have the N64, which, even virtual console releases, will give you full second delays when you hit the button.

[Anonymous No.4128085]

>>4128075
If you're using composite then it'll look shitty. It also depends on the TV.

I bought one of those component cables for my genesis and it looks glorious. But I still emulate most of the time.

[Anonymous No.4128087]

>>4128085
Does the model 2 even have a composite cable? I was using coaxial.

[Anonymous No.4128091]

>>4128087
Yes it does.
Coaxial is even worse.

[Anonymous No.4128095]

>>4128079
>Then you have the N64, which, even virtual console releases, will give you full second delays when you hit the button.

Yeah, I'll need a source for that.

Which emulator and which game are you referring to?

SM64 for P64 I have never once experienced input lag.

[Anonymous No.4128096]

>>4128091
I guess that was the issue, then. I was playing YS III and it just looked awful compared to the emulator.

[Anonymous No.4128102]

>>4128095
Same, I've got N64 VC games on my Wii and they never had any lag; also never have any lag when playing on Project64.

[Anonymous No.4128108]

>>4125162
If you grew up playing the games in question, the answer is "maybe".

If you didn't grow up playing the games in question, I'd be inclined towards "no".

Personally, I grew up playing the games in question and even I eventually decided on emulation. Hardware breaks and has to be repaired, plus CRT's are fucking heavy and scanlines look horrible to my eyes. I'm willing to put up with some input lag if that means I can play games on my nice 26 inch IPS monitor.

Your mileage may vary, this advice does not create a client-attorney relationship, et cetera.

[Anonymous No.4128138]

>>4128063
what the fuck did I write then?
>is it noticeable?
>I don't notice anything.

input lag exists, that's fact, but I also said I don't notice it so fuck off you retard and learn to read.

>>4128070
as I said, it exists, it's a thing but I don't notice it. you lot crying about how insignificant it is doesn't change the fact that it exists. now I included it to be complete but as I said, again, I don't notice it and I play with a wireless controller even.

reading comprehension is a nice thing.

[Anonymous No.4128153]

>>4128095
>>4128102

To be clear, I meant on a modern TV.
You'll be good hooked up to a CRT.

I don't notice the input lag on hdmi emulation unless I do N64.

[Anonymous No.4128170]

>>4125334
good post

[Anonymous No.4128173]

>>4128138
uhm, no sweetie.
my post was not meant as a personal attack against you.

pro gamers and speedrunners wont notice any input lag when emulating on a PC

[Anonymous No.4128174]

Emulate. If you are going for the console you can use flash carts for NES, Genesis, and N64. Don't bother with flash carts for the SNES because a lot of carts had chips so it would have the emulate hardware just to try to run the game properly.

[Anonymous No.4128181]

>>4128173
I didn't treat any of them as a personal attack. I responded to what both em said.
>my post
and as you can see I responded to two posts so how the fuck am I supposed to know which one you're talking about?

[Anonymous No.4128189]

>>4125162
A combo between the 2 is the best method. try games out on an emulator than buy the ones you like. Nothing beats playing on retro hardware with a crt.

[Anonymous No.4128198]

>>4128181
lol

I am the one you wrote
>fuck off you retard and learn to read
to, I think you should have been able to strain your brain cells to get to that conclusion based on how I replied afterwards.

[Anonymous No.4128206]

>>4128198
then you're contradicting yourself you retard.
>if you're not competitively playing a fighting game, ..., then the few ms you missed out on don't make any difference.
>pro gamers and speedrunners wont notice any input lag when emulating on a PC

which also means I shouldn't have come to that conclusion. anyways this entire conversation is retarded.

>you could consider input lag
>OMG IT'S A MEME
>it's real but I don't notice it
>YOU DON'T NOTICE IT
>yeah I said I don't notice it
>YOU DON'T NOTICE IT ANON

[Anonymous No.4128213]

>>4128206
I agree, this conversation is useless, especially with someone as idiotic as yourself.

The fighting game bit was a little bit of an exaggeration.
Most pro fighting gamers loathe playing online, because the tiniest delay can be the difference of succeeding with a combo or not.

Speedruns, shooters, etc. should work fine.

[Anonymous No.4128226]

>>4128213
hey man, you're incapable of comprehensive reading or making a coherent point but sure, call others idiotic.

bye

[Anonymous No.4128294]

>>4128213

You are dumb. Stop coming here.

>>4128226

You are right, but that idiot posted a bunch of times because of you, so you also suck.

[Mr.B No.4128313]

>>4128213
LIGHT GUN games are shit with that input lag.

[Anonymous No.4129578]

>>4128313
Don't LCD TVs have a hard time detecting shots too?

[Anonymous No.4129668]

>>4129578

Hard time? As in "don't work for shit AT ALL" because they don't have scan lines, the same refresh rate, etc etc etc...?

[Anonymous No.4129738]

>>4125334
>There's a third option, which is to buy a quality multi-console FPGA simulator system like the Analogue NT mini, which allows you to plug in an SD card with ROMs and play pretty much any 8-bit console in 1080p with total accuracy, no input lag, and tons of customizable settings.
That's not really distinct from an emulator.

Also
>Emulated games will always have some input lag, because they're not running on the bare metal.
is an incorrect statement. A powerful enough system and proper real time processing using accurate emulation would be indistinguishable from real hardware.If you had a multicore processor that emulated every single chip and the bus system in conjunction at THz speed for example you could easily match the emulated timing to produce identical output to the systems, as an extreme example. Conceptually the question is how powerful and fast of a machine would you realistically need and how long until that's possible, rather than identifying THz as the requirement, it's merely overkill to make the point.

In very much the way you would say, producing the same sounds as an instrument with a limited range that could be replicated with a speaker could be played back by a computer of some sort, but good luck doing it well with something like an Intel 4004. But you already know shit like WAV/MP3's can already get you to that point today, even if they weren't before.

[Anonymous No.4129760]

Real hardware is best and those who disagree are probably savescum that use the speed-up feature when they're walking around in RPGs
That said, emulation is ok if you don't have the real stuff. Try to at least invest in a controller though

[Anonymous No.4129783]

>>4128070
> Get an idea of how small one millisecond is.

Lag is additive to reaction time and games are balanced with reaction time in mind. So if a game is balanced around a half second window or action, reducing it by .1 to .3 seconds poses a real problem.

By the way, humans have an average of .25 seconds reaction time. So, your reaction time in that image is pretty bad.

[Anonymous No.4129791]

>>4129760
I save savescum RPGs so I don't have to fucking wait through bullshit menus to load, when I can hit one button and be playing already rather wait five minutes to shit out out title screens and check shit and take forever to load. Either at save points or in 'leave on' points. I'll load a leave on point but I won't restore a death there. They go back to save points.

Functionally I don't recognize any suggestion that saving and dropping a game and reloading is any different than leaving a paused machine running effectively so you can pick up immediately where you left off.

[Anonymous No.4129807]

>>4129783
>By the way, humans have an average of .25 seconds reaction time.
On average humans have. Less ambiguous because humans on average have exactly their own individual average reaction time. Similarly 0.25 is pretty bad compared to individuals who on average get 0.1-0.15. The distance from the top reaction speeds to average is greater the distance from average to his.
Albeit, you don't know what system configuration and how it might affect his total additive latency just as you noted. Also, that reaction test is so/so and not strictly indicative for in game response times based on trained reactions based on audio, visuals, awareness. I for example get worse response times on the test than I actually play many games at by a significant amount.

[Anonymous No.4129816]

>>4129791
That's not savescumming, savescumming is using a savestate before jumping over a large pit or in the middle of a boss fight.
Using savestates like you do is perfectly acceptable.

[Anonymous No.4129820]

>>4128070
>334ms

[Anonymous No.4129868]

>>4129783
The most sensitive game towards lag IMO is pretty much every game of the Fire Pro Wrestling series (and since it uses the same game mechanics King of Colosseum too). It's gameplay is completely based on exact timing. When playing on an CRT and then on an LCD this might fuck up your timing most of the time.

[Anonymous No.4130004]

>>4125162
Honestly, if you want to play SNES stuff then just buy a New 3DS and get homebrew. Not only do you get a fairly authentic experience with buttons and all, but if you get a large SD card you're basically set
The 3DS is the best emulation device hands down

[Anonymous No.4130161]

>>4129738
>That's not really distinct from an emulator.

But it is.

An FPGA-based solution can achieve 1:1 accuracy and zero lag with far fewer hardware resources than a software emulator equivalent, whose access to the underlying x86 / ARM ASIC is being constantly mediated by a multitasking, memory-managed desktop OS.

You said as much in the rest of your post.

[Anonymous No.4130165]

>>4125784
You dont notice anything because youre garbage

[Anonymous No.4130169]

>>4130161
This.

Also, general emulators rely on hardware/device interface logic from the drivers and operating system, which are on polling cycles. This often adds a considerable lag range. FPGA solutions usually have direct device state checking, which makes the time accurate like original consoles.

tldr; FPGA can match ASIC (console) 1:1 operationally. Software emulators are subjected to operating environment constraints.

[Anonymous No.4130171]

>>4125334
I failed to mention here that using an HDTV is also not ideal because digital displays natively use square pixels. Analog CRTs don't use pixels at all; they just take the image they're sent and blast it across the whole screen. Ergo, old games are meant to be displayed with non-square pixels, and HDTVs distort their expected aspect ratio.

[Anonymous No.4130318]

>>4130004
This is an awesome alternative to a SNES and a CRT. You can have all of the games pixel perfect and almost all of them run great in snes9x or as virtual console injects. there are only a couple of games for which i haven't found a good way to play (star fox and kirby's dreamland 3). I've gotten everything else I've tried to run at full speed.

[Anonymous No.4130320]

>>4130318
To clarify, KDL3 runs at full speed as an inject, but graphical issues with the foreground make it impossible to play underwater levels.
3DS is really great overall though, can emulate almost every 8 and 16 bit console and a few 32 bit consoles as well.

[Anonymous No.4130335]

I think the biggest advantage is that with a console there is zero set up, you just put the disc in the console and press play. With emulation, depending on the game there is either no set up or you could be adjusting minuscule settings for hours on end.

[Anonymous No.4130342]

>>4130165
this

[Anonymous No.4130349]

>>4130335
This is assuming that with the console you have all the original hardware, including the console, game, controllers, CRT, and preferred cables. If you are missing a single variable from that equation then it's not going to work out.

[Anonymous No.4130392]

>>4125162
just emulate

i have a ton of shit laying around the house and i often think about getting rid of the clutter and throwing that money towards the bank

[Anonymous No.4130396]

>>4128173
I speed run Super Metroid and playing on my PC always ducks with various strays due to frame requirements. All of the high end runners in the scene agree it's just not really feasible to be competitive via emulation.

[Anonymous No.4130773]

just emulate

[Anonymous No.4130775]

>>4130773

[Anonymous No.4130787]

[Anonymous No.4130789]

>>4130396
Yeah agreed if you're serious about speedrunning you really need to play on the real thing

[Anonymous No.4130791]

A E S T H E T I C

[Anonymous No.4130798]

>>4130773
>>4130787
>>4130791
You gonna develop eye cancer, anon

[Anonymous No.4130803]

[Anonymous No.4131071]

I like collecting stuff and trust me, even for me, just owning games for the sake of just owning them isn't really worth it. It's just TOO EXPENSIVE nowadays. It's a luxury.

I'd recommend emulators to anyone, in the end what you want is to play games and you achieve the same result either way.
If you have to spend on something, spend on a controller.

[Anonymous No.4131079]

>>4125202
https://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5376244

[Anonymous No.4131139]

>>4128226
i see that im wrong, sorry

[Anonymous No.4131153]

>>4125186
Does a steam controller count?

[Anonymous No.4131160]

>>4125173
>emulators:
>- doesn't look as good

I'm sitting here outputting a native resolution, RGB signal from my PC to a CRT, and you seriously think it's gonna look worse than a console?
Something don't add up.

[Anonymous No.4131218]

>>4130161
>An FPGA-based solution can achieve 1:1 accuracy and zero lag with far fewer hardware resources than a software emulator equivalent
Which is irrelevant. What you're looking at is cost and efficiency. Which we're not discussing. We're discussing that it's a specialized hardware form of emulation. The cost and efficiency of well designed specialized hardware for a task, supposing production is inexpensive enough to reasonably make will almost always end up the less resource hungry of the two. General computing principles do not care about the efficiency outside of extending modularity.
No one in this discussion gave a shit about the sane comparison of wattage ratios for performance.

And as you noted >a software emulator equivalent
is my point, it not only is still an emulator but your point about software always having lag is negated by even having a software equivalent.

I said as much in my post. The difference here is that you're not disagreeing with me, you're deflecting to save face that you made a misstatement about the facts of what emulation is.

>>4130169
> Software emulators are subjected to operating environment constraints.
A constraint bounded well above specification is not a concern.

[Anonymous No.4131367]

>>4131218
> A constraint bounded well above specification is not a concern.
The statement is correct in isolation, but not true for any software emulator.

Emulators wrapped by a general operating system are not above specification, at least today. Cycle timing is not perfectly controlled because it's subjected to kernel time slice delegation which will not match or exceed specifications of original hardware (nor will cycles of thr emulated chips align on the nanosecond) due to the cycles highest precision being subjected to the lowest cycle divisor. And the component state checking (like input polling) is below original console performance as noted above in posts and links with evidence. This is extremely well documented and observable by measurable input lag beyond the display technology, lag due to fixed losses and the aggregate cycle misalignment aggregation. Again, any logic-introduced lag or execution inaccuracies is evidence of being below specification.

FPGA can bypass this because the logic patterns can achieve 1:1 timing and order because it can be structured in a logical indistinguishable pattern with the right structure and pcb+component makeup , compared to the ASIC counterpart. If you want to be a pedantic, then the logic structure of the FPGA gate pattern does 'emulate' the ASIC gate pattern, but that's nothing more than a manufacturing difference since ASIC patterns do differ in some console revisions, but since the inputs+outputs+timings don't differ between chips, specifications are met and no one even talks about it. I'm not even going to go on about how general purpose CPU's need caches and other components vs single chip FPGA, which is a whole different dimension of difference.

This all can be proven because any ASIC can be removed on a console board and replaced with a FPGA (in specification) without any operational differences. Companies do this all the time as they now develop ASIC prototypes in FPGA and swap only in final production.

[Anonymous No.4131379]

>>4125334
>but it will never be equal to actual hardware.
When you say "never", do you mean currently, or in the near future, or really never?

[Anonymous No.4131381]

>>4131367
One further point that I couldn't make above due post length:

No one in the shop would refer to a FPGA implementation of a ASIC as "emulation". Prototype, perhaps, but not emulation. The biggest reason is that the solution schematic is equilevant between component FPGA vs ASIC. A general CPU running a software version of a full virtual circuit board and all of its components is entirely different, if for no other reason than the logic map won't literally map to the schematic.

[Anonymous No.4131485]

>>4131160
>that's the typical use case of an emulator

[Anonymous No.4131496]

>>4131153
Jesus Christ no.
I used that thing once and could not understand who the fuck the target userbase was. That shit could only possibly be used for games like Civilization and even then I'd imagine most people would just rather use a mouse and keyboard at that point

[Anonymous No.4132232]

>>4125334
>Emulated games will always have some input lag
wrong

[Anonymous No.4132265]

>>4125162
I play on console because an everdrive was cheaper than fixing my laptop.

[Anonymous No.4132297]

>>4131218
You are trying to compare an actual real-world 1:1 logically identical FPGA implementation of console hardware that exists today to a nonexistent software implementation of the same console hardware running through a purely hypothetical future general-purpose CPU and OS that, through sheer brute force, manage to overcome their well-known inherent shortcomings to achieve comparable accuracy *and* performance.

The bottom line is that there is no form of software emulation, today and in the near future, that will match actual console hardware (or a good FPGA implementation which is indistinguishable).