/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.3997515]

How is the nt

[Anonymous No.3997543]

What is that thing, for starters

[Anonymous No.3997660]

If you're not going for original hardware you're better off just emulating.

[Anonymous No.3997745]

>>3997543
> www. analogue. co/pages/nt-mini

[Anonymous No.3997749]

>>3997515
A waste of money.

[Anonymous No.3997762]

>>3997660
this

wii is the best nes

[Anonymous No.3997907]

>>3997515
I want one because it has all those 8-bit cores. They say the FPGA cores are pretty accurate to a real NES with added bonuses too like increased sprite limit on a line. The system supports both analog and digital outputs too which is perfect for me. Also the mini can play games off an SD-card.

I just wish I had the money to get one. I still have most of my NES cartridges from my youth, and would love to play them again. I will have to get new custom cables for its analog output alongside controllers for the NT mini which increases the cost and puts it further away from me.

[Anonymous No.3997916]

>>3997660
FPGA is more original then emulation will ever be, just additional enhancements like built in upscaling or scandoubler, etc so you don't need an aditional Framemeister.

[Anonymous No.3997958]

>>3997916
>emulating on an arm processor is better than emulating on an Intel processor

[Anonymous No.3998024]

>>3997958
What do you mean?
Do you think FPGAs are ARM processors?

No, they are just ICs with programmable gates, you can fabricate a real chip out of a FPGA core and it would just work like a real chip, without need for any software or any type of emulation.

[Anonymous No.3998028]

>>3998024
>Do you think FPGAs are ARM processors?
The ones you'r talking about are, dumbass.

[Anonymous No.3998036]

>>3998028
No FPGA is a ARM processor.
Are you technologically literate?

[Anonymous No.3998040]

>>3998028
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field-programmable_gate_array

FPGAs only use ARM chips as a interface for programming them, running anything on a FPGA directly is non-related to the ARM core it has. There is no emulation, it's direct hardware representation of what you are making it to do.

[Anonymous No.3998041]

>>3998024

>> Thinks FPGA and ARM are the same thing

[Anonymous No.3998048]

>>3998036
>>3998040
>>3998041


http://www.mouser.com/Intel-Altera/Semiconductors/Programmable-Logic-ICs/_/N-3oh8v?P=1yz1kl1&Keyword=fpga&FS=True

I really don't get why you retarded kids open your dumb ignorant mouths about shit you know absolutely nothing about.

[Anonymous No.3998053]

>>3998041
ment for >>3997958

[Anonymous No.3998058]

>>3998048
What do you mean? >>3998040 is correct.
I have worked with FPGAs for years as a hobby, recreated several 8-bit machines.

[Anonymous No.3998074]

>>3998058
The biggest selling point of the Cyclone V (which I assume they're using since that's what they're saying in the Atariage thread) is that it's an ARM based processor.

Why does this need to be explained? Oh wait emulatortards.

[Swift S. Lawliet !!VIQsbxF6xwO No.3998081]

>>3997515
The Analogue NT Mini is really great, in my opinion.

Even if I have my original Famicom and NES, I still love the Analogue NT Mini but it wouldn't beat the feeling of playing on actual hardware, even with all it's enhancements.

Also, I didn't mod my NES or Famicom for RGB (though I did mod my original Famicom for composite AV) since RGB mods for the NES/Famicom is just a meme and I love the quality of RGB on the Analogue NT Mini.

I play on the Analogue NT Mini when I want to play with RGB video.

[babbage's gramps !RATGzMALLY No.3998101]

>>3998074
You should probably double check your facts on that one, Anon. There are variants of the Cyclone V with integrated ARM processors, I presume for applications where people want to use the FPGA for custom I/O or something but not all Cyclone Vs have ARM SoCs. They are all FPGAs though.

[Anonymous No.3998106]

>>3998101
There's no reason to use a Cyclone 5 unless you want the ARM processor for something in this application.

[Anonymous No.3998120]

>>3998106
The ARM CPU is just included as a interface for common tasks like on screen displays, no game code is being run on the ARM chip.

[Anonymous No.3998124]

>>3998081
>since RGB mods for the NES/Famicom is just a meme
How come I keep hearing this though?
I don't think any of it's games used composite artifacting like the Apple II and PC CGA graphics did?
Also all they use is CRT dithering, something that also stays with RGB.
So the only reason they used composite is because it was popular interface for the time, there's no reason not to want RGB output if possible as composite is just lower quality without any benefits.

[Anonymous No.3998139]

>>3998120
So lets break your logic down here emulatortard.

Dickhead who designed this put in an insanely overpowered FPGA. One that is marketed for it's ARM designed.
Said chip costs $40 to over$800 for just the chip.
Said chip is fully capable of emulating NESshit.

BUT! According to you and your extensive background in EE they are only using it for the FPGA specs.

Ok.... Also that's ignoring the incorrect statements that FGPA emulation isn't emulation.

[Anonymous No.3998148]

Shit.

[Anonymous No.3998150]

>>3998139
>So lets break your logic down here emulatortard.
Where did I say I like emulation? I think it's pretty straight forward that FPGA is non-emulation as explained

>Dickhead who designed this put in an insanely overpowered FPGA. One that is marketed for it's ARM designed.
But that console enables you a lot of enhancements and extras if you wish to use them, I'm sure they knew why to have a ARM core with it if they designed it that way

>Also that's ignoring the incorrect statements that FGPA emulation isn't emulation
There is no emulation involved when running native code straight on a FPGA, what are you talking about? You can make a transistor/gate exact copy of the whole NES chipset on a FPGA without it being any different than the real thing

[Anonymous No.3998154]

>>3998139
>BUT! According to you and your extensive background in EE they are only using it for the FPGA specs.
Nobody said that, did you even read >>3998040 >>3998101 >>3998120, if you would have read those posts you could have seen that some tasks can be used with the ARM chip while the FPGA is fully running native NES code without needing the FPGA or disturb the FPGA for functions like on screen displays, save states, upscaling, options menus, etc

[Anonymous No.3998159]

>>3998150
>You can make a transistor/gate exact copy of the whole NES chipset on a FPGA without it being any different than the real thing
Even in theory that is false.

[Anonymous No.3998165]

>>3998154
What the fuck are they using it for then?

[Anonymous No.3998170]

>>3998159
Except it's not, chips are very precise and always function the same way, for example, you can't have a NOR logic gate that works differently than another NOR gate.
Most chips fabricated today use a FPGA design for prototyping.

As long you place every gate and the connections between them exactly the same way, there is no way for the software on it to know it's running on anything else then the real deal nor will it run any differently because it's just pure math and you can't have something in this universe where 2+2=5.

There are exceptions like the SID chip in the C64, it's analog part used the quirks of the fabrication technology used for it's specific sounds, but this is analog and not related to the general idea how you run code on a FPGA.

[Anonymous No.3998176]

>>3998165
On-Screen Display, Configuration menus? All the ARM chip can be used for and many other things.

For example.
The Wii U is a PowerPC based machine, all games run on the PowerPC chip, the games never touch the ARM chip the Wii U has, but all the menus of the system, like the one where you launch your games, move save files, etc, run on the ARM chip. Something like this can also be used with a FPGA clone console like the one we are talking about in this thread.

[Anonymous No.3998179]

>>3998170
Chips have tolerances like anything. And we aren't just talking about a chip. Were talking about a whole circuit. It's simply not possible to accurately emulate.

[Anonymous No.3998184]

>>3998179
There is no emulation and tolerances do not play a role in executing code, they would play a role on something like analog audio reproduction in DACs and OP AMPs.
There is nothing stopping you from the XX number of transistors from all the chips of the NES onto the XXXXX number of free transistors on the FPGA. All the rest of the circuit can be left outside if needed and every pin on the FPGA can represent a pin of an actual chip on the NES.

[Anonymous No.3998190]

>>3998176
A cyclone 5 still isn't needed for that. Like not at all. You're turning it into a PC at that point with an os.
>>3998184
>tolerances do not play a role in executing code
One of the dumber statements I've seen this year. You display a clear ignorance of this topic.

[babbage's gramps !RATGzMALLY No.3998197]

Okay I did some googling and I couldn't find any actual pics of the mini's pcb but according to multiple sources on AA the model is 5CEBA4F17C8N which is a Cyclone V E, the most base model of the V series FPGA which would make sense to keep costs down. Presumably, the mini has its own processor that handles the "dashboard" or whatever you want to call the mini's own interface that lets you select video modes, flash cores and generally how to tell the chips on board how to behave.

Endless arguments over the true definition of "emulation" aside, FPGAs simulate real chips with much greater accuracy than software emulation does.

[babbage's gramps !RATGzMALLY No.3998207]

The E variant does NOT have an integrated ARM processor. Should have probably included that.

[Anonymous No.3998208]

>>3998190
Thank you Mr.EE expert. I'm sure your years of education made you so smart.

How about you fuck off about things you have no idea about and stop bitching because something you don't like?

[Anonymous No.3998226]

>>3998207
Good, this will shut the idiots up

[Anonymous No.3998229]

>>3998197
>>3998207
b-but it's not real hardware so it must be e-emulation! my little brain can't comprehend the idea of FPGAs a-anon-kun

[Anonymous No.3998398]

>>3998229
It is emulation but it's just really accurate. It may not be like emulators on a PC, but is still trying to be something that it isn't, which is emulation.

[Anonymous No.3998454]

>>3998398
It has nothing to do with emulation.
It's running actual code without modification on actual hardware without any use of software.

It literally is what it's made to be, it's not "trying" to be something.
Also, simulation =! emulation, some people seem to be having difficulties understanding that.

[babbage's gramps !RATGzMALLY No.3998456]

>>3998398
See that's the meat of the thing. What is the true meaning of emulation? Are slim consoles just emulating their fat counterparts? Is a 1chip SNES just emulating the first run SNES?

[Anonymous No.3998460]

>>3998398
Wrong

[Anonymous No.3998467]

>>3998456
The meaning of emulation is not confusing or obscure. Emulation is when you use software to simulate one type of hardware on different hardware. Simple, really.

[Anonymous No.3998481]

>>3998467
Yup and code running on FPGAs have nothing to do with that

[Anonymous No.3998485]

>>3998074
>i have no idea what i'm talking about and can't admit i was wrong
y tho?

[Anonymous No.3998487]

>>3998170
>chips are very precise and always function the same way,
Please just stop.

[Anonymous No.3998570]

>>3998454
>Without any use of software
Software is something that tells hardware what to do. The firmware running on the fpga is basically telling the hardware what to do.

[Anonymous No.3998575]

>>3998487
>Implying all Intel i7 work differently
Are you mentally challenged? Do you understand how retarded that sounds?

[Anonymous No.3998583]

>>3998570
Firmware has nothing to do with it, once a FPGA is configured, it will work as the chip it's made to be, you don't need extra software then.

You must understand, if we are talking about the NES, it's software was very basic and ran directly on the metal without any kernels or layers.
Connecting a ROM chip from a NES cartridge directly to a FPGA that has been made to work like a NES on a chip will function like an actual NES without any additional software.

[Anonymous No.3999110]

>>3998124
It's because the Famicom doesn't generate RGB at all, only composite, so a Famicom RGB mod involves replacing the video generation with a new chip that reads the graphics data and creates its own video output with its own color palette, attempting to mimic what the Famicom colors would be.
This is different from RGB modding something like a PC Engine or SNES Jr which do generate RGB internally but just don't have the wires hooked up.
So a Famicom RGB mod leaves some people feeling they're looking at fake colors invented decades later by modders rather than colors generated by the Famicom.
The punchline is that composite colors never look the same on different TVs anyway.

[Anonymous No.3999119]

>>3998456
In the context of computer hardware, "emulation" is usually meant as an abbreviation for "software emulation," which is a more specific concept than the dictionary definition of the word "emulation" itself.

This specific usage can be seen not just in video games but also in other fields, for example designing and prototyping new microchips.

[Anonymous No.3999169]

>>3999110
thanks for typing this out so I didn't have to. you're a smart guy.

[Anonymous No.3999184]

>>3997515
my wife prefers the retro5 since you can play snezz games on it.

[Anonymous No.3999196]

>>3999184
How does her son like it?

[Anonymous No.3999202]

>>3999196
he also likes the retron5 since it has sega genesis and hes black.

[Anonymous No.3999836]

>>3997515
I'm all for FPGA shit when it comes to flash carts, but what benefit does an FPGA system actually have if it's cheaper to just get the actual system itself instead? I"m not shitposting here, I'm legit curious.

[Anonymous No.3999973]

>>3999110
> they're looking at fake colors invented decades later by modders rather than colors generated by the Famicom

oh my god, have we really reached this kind of autism regarding retro gaming? The mod is displaying "fake colors", and modders "invented" such colors? I guess you can apply that paranoia to any tv that doesn't display the same color as the next one, not to mention color adjustments (remember, not all crt's displayed the same results), and most importantly your own memory and interpretation of each color.

And also, be careful! Don't trust your old analog pictures, as the film used also affects the colors displayed! Oh! And don't forget about the flash! And those ol' reliable gaming magazines with their screenshots? Better not go for that! Who knows what criteria they've used to bring you all you need to know on those top notch magazines!

You're reaching for something that isn't there, dude. In the end, all you're doing is settling yourself with whatever solution convinces your own mind and reason. If a "fake", 2017 rgb mod gives me the cleanest, most beautiful color/picture display and balance i can get, i guess i'll stick to the perfect matrix, then.

Have fun playing aboard the nebuchadnezzar!

>>3998124
Anon, don't mind them, mod your shit and eat your delicious steak.

[Anonymous No.3999986]

>>3999836
>I'm all for FPGA shit when it comes to flash carts, but what benefit does an FPGA system actually have if it's cheaper to just get the actual system itself instead?
Not only is the NES simulation crazy accurate, it handles spacial audio chips & mappers flawlessly, something both flashcarts continue to struggle with and probably still will. It also supports a large chunk of older systems too and you don't need flashcarts to load roms either.

[Anonymous No.3999992]

>>3999986
flashcart with FPGA and system with FPGA = best of both worlds.

[Swift S. Lawliet !!VIQsbxF6xwO No.4000170]

>>3999992
You don't even need a flashcart for the Analogue NT Mini, the jailbreak firmware (which is official and made by Kevtris, mind you) does the job really well.

[Anonymous No.4000192]

>>3998229
>>3998398
>>3998454
The problem with emulating using an FPGA is that it requires gate-accurate data on the chip you wish to emulate.

Unless it's a 100% gate accurate clone, it's still using emulation tricks to "emulate" the real thing.

While the 6502 CPU, CIC, and Rabbit CIC were decapped, the NES PPU has NEVER been decapped.

So, while you can get an accurate clone of the CPU in FPGA, you cannot clone the PPU, only emulate it.

[Anonymous No.4000202]

>>3999110
>So a Famicom RGB mod leaves some people feeling they're looking at fake colors invented decades later by modders rather than colors generated by the Famicom.

The PPU mod attempts to emulate the NES Vs. Acade setup's RGB capable PPU palette.

It does this fairly accurately, and I trust that the arcade version is close to what the creators intended, since each unit was displaying via RGB to a single type of monitor configured in the same way across every unit.

[Anonymous No.4000457]

>>3999110
Not that a human being could tell the difference

[Anonymous No.4000464]

>>4000192
No. There is no emulation. It's fully hardware.
The code runs natively and it does not have to use any tricks for it to run.

Also no, no PPU "emulation", just a clone, even if it's not 100% accurate, but this does not play a role in running system code itself. The PPU is just a video generator. If you want the best output over RGB or HDMI like that system offers natively, you don't want the original PPU anyways.

[Anonymous No.4000512]

>>3999973
You're flat out wrong. The NES doesn't have an RGB palette, period. If you want to use Playchoice-10 colors for accuracy, by all means do, but don't pretend anything else isn't made up bullshit.

[Anonymous No.4000517]

>>4000202
pic related, the singular accurate RGB NES/Famicom palette.

[Anonymous No.4000521]

>>4000517
If it really emulate the palette it'd also emulate the way the emphasize bits worked, rendering a couple of games unplayable so stop being so autistic about it.

[Anonymous No.4000527]

>>4000521
I will not. If you RGB mod a Famicom or NES you're an asshat, and you're doing no better than emulating. The console is literally incapable of outputting that signal, and pretending that that is nostalgic for you is the biggest circlejerk of all time. If you don't have a PC-10 cabinet, you can deal with the already quite good composite output of the NES, or, emulate on a Wii. Way cheaper, and you're not sticking a PPU 'simulator' inside your console, so you can pretend that it was supposed to look that way. Fuck RGB mods for the FC/NES and fuck the people who think they're neccesary. Play a different comsole if you hate the NES so much that you would rather make your hardware look like an emulator than play it correctly.

[Anonymous No.4000534]

>>4000527
Woah. Tune down the autism a bit please.
What about this then?

[Anonymous No.4000546]

>>4000534
Ugh, is that a PC-10 PPU? Because that's just fucking gore. I hope to god you didn't actually do that.

[Anonymous No.4000551]

>>4000527
I've modded Famicoms with NESRGB before. It's not emulation and the people that think that have some failed logic.

The palette isn't emulated. It taken from the NTSC to RGB conversion. It's accurate these days.

[Anonymous No.4000552]

>>4000546
Yeah it is but how is it gore?
The chip isn't hurt, is socketed and easily removable and nothing has been soldered to it whatsoever.
No reason why you can't put it back onto the arcadeboard in under a minute.
You seem to always find something to sperg about mate.

[Anonymous No.4000565]

>>4000551
It's not emulation obviously, but this 'NTSC to RGB' conversion you're talking about is literally a meaningless meme. It literally cannot be done, there is no palette with which to create one. FirebrandX is lying to you, man.
>>4000552
Fair enough, I didn't notice it was socketed. I'm actually OK with those mods when done reversibly. I'd like one myself if I could find a PPU and have it done as well as it is in your pic. I only sperg about people like >>4000551 claiming that the NESRGB board is the be all end all and the colors are 'literally perfect color conversions'. It's all complete bullshit, and everyone seems to fall for it.

[Anonymous No.4000752]

>hurr you can't copy NES color palette
>implying you can't write homebrew programs to spew out all the colors and exactly copy them
is /vr/, may I say, tech illiterate?

[Anonymous No.4000782]

>Getting a fancy expensive famiclone
Just get an emulator box thing

[Anonymous No.4000839]

Analogue NT Genesis fucking when? SNES one would be nice too, but Genesis would be the one I'd go for.

[Anonymous No.4000853]

>>4000752
No, retard. The NES doesn't output the same color for every tv set. If you spewed them out on screen then creating an "accurate" palette would depend on the screen they used. The best option is to allow a custom palette editor or something so the user can define their own color scheme.
That's also why everyone refers to the RGB mod on the NES to be a meme, as the palette is not how they remember it being on their CRT.

>>4000839
FPGAs that fast are too expensive right now. Give it 4 or 5 years.

>>4000782
My wife's son, Tyrone, loves his!

[Anonymous No.4001597]

>ITT: FPGA ignorance and misinformation
If every thread discussing hardware is going to degenerate into a shitpostfest like this we're going to need a containment thread

[Anonymous No.4001619]

>>3997515
>still playing nes

[Anonymous No.4001627]

>>4001619
you must have gotten lost, this is /vr/, not /v/

[Anonymous No.4001636]

>>4000853
>No, retard. The NES doesn't output the same color for every tv set.
You don't need a TV to copy the colors, you can literary display a single color and copy it off with a oscilloscope from the signal.

[babbage's gramps !RATGzMALLY No.4002140]

>>4000839
MiST has a Mega Drive core. No sound currently though.

[babbage's gramps !RATGzMALLY No.4002142]

>>4002140
Just checked and I guess it does have (buggy) sound now.

[Anonymous No.4002150]

>>3997515
>$450

[Anonymous No.4002801]

>>4002142
So sound the developers originally intended for Brazil? Bear in mind that fart noises in hueland sound different than the rest of the world where 99% of the population aren't loose assed trannies.

[babbage's gramps !RATGzMALLY No.4002820]

>>4002801
The bugs appear to be more implementation than fidelity but I appreciate your butthole joke none the less

https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=ExTjT9bR3_U

[Anonymous No.4002828]

>>3997660
I don't think you understand what this is.

[Anonymous No.4002836]

>>4002801
Was that supposed to be a joke? Because I'm not laughing.

[Anonymous No.4002902]

>>4001636
Not the same anon replying but reading the composite signal with an oscilloscope won't help you.
There is no standardized way to directly convert an NTSC video signal and it's values into RGB color values.
Guess why television engineers back then coined NTSC to stand for "Never the same color".
That's because every freaking device you'll get your hands at interprets the NTSC signal differently.
Not that I give a fuck about palettes anyways since I'm fine as long as it remotely looks correct but even though the guy you replied to is an asshat, he is correct.

[Anonymous No.4002938]

>>4002828
theres the nt and the nt mini and both have been mentioned within the first few posts

[Anonymous No.4003053]

>>4002902
He said to copy off a TV, which is stupid.
Reading it with a oscilloscope and then taking most of the averages of every read you can get a pretty good color representation.
NTSC sucks for color reproduction, it's true, NeverTheSameColor is a nice way to bully Amerifags.

[Anonymous No.4003738]

>>4002836
But everyone else is laughing. At a triggered faggot.

>>4002902
>Guess why
Because they were assmad palfags who weren't television engineers.