LCD screen

[Anonymous No.3955967]

Hey /vr/

Total retrogaming newfag here.
What's wrong with lcd screen and retrogaming ? I've read a couple of threads and ppl keep mocking lcd screen when it comes to retro.

Genuinely why ? And what would be better ?

[Anonymous No.3955981]

old games are 240p, a non-standard resolution that is actually just a 480i signals but with half the lines drawn over the same 480i screen space, LCDs only support a fixed resolution, are typically widescreen, have backlighting so there is an uneven spread of color making it impossible to achieve true blacks, and when not rendering at a native resolution they are going to be introducing copious amounts of image processing to upscale that image to correctly fit the display. this results in a really, really ugly image.

A lot of old games also relied on things like the shadow mask/slot mask/aperture grille along with the natural bloom of CRTs to generate the image as it was intended to be seen. Sending the same signal to an LCD will result in the image as it was created, but not as it was intended to be displayed giving you a very ugly representation. Many developers used the way CRTs draw image to render things in interesting ways, exploiting a trait of the technology to squeeze more detail that would be lost on an LCD.

Numerous games also require the timing of a CRT as each system sends a sync signal with its video signal, light gun games rely on the exact timing of that signal to read certain types of inputs accurately. LCDs are not fast enough to do this (update time for LCD is measured in milliseconds and CRT is measured in nanoseconds.) This also affects the rate at which you receive new frames of a game, more realistically its about 2-6 frames depending on the type of display, but you will be 2-6 frames behind in things like rhythm games and fighting games, any other games which require precise inputs and timings will be needlessly difficult to play on an LCD for this reason. It'll also make some older platformers a little harder but frankly I think this is the least affected genre.

Also cats can't fit on top of LCDs and wouldn't like those cold lifeless slabs if they could.

[Anonymous No.3955987]

Because they are stuck in the past.

[Anonymous No.3956004]

>>3955981

Thanks, dude

>>3955987

Thanks too, i guess

[Anonymous No.3956019]

>>3956004
yeah, here's an example of how devs would use the display type to create certain types of image. the LCD is representing it exactly as it exists in the game files, but the problem is a lot of the illusion being produced in CRT bloom and the quirks of the mask type are gone when rendered on an LCD. It's chunky, there is extremely visible stepping in the pixels, and what was supposed to be a round image becomes a blocky mess.

This was a common thing done for these types of displays.

[Anonymous No.3956036]

>>3956019

So, what should i pick instead ?

[Anonymous No.3956045]

>>3956036
Do you want to play games or stare at images with a magnification glass?

[Anonymous No.3956072]

>>3956045

Well...number 1

[Anonymous No.3956083]

>>3955981

To summarize, the differences are completely negligible minor details you'll only notice or feel upset about if you're autistic.

[Anonymous No.3956089]

>>3956019

A more effective version of that would also include the whole of the image in question. To give the closeups more context.

Still, not bad. Not bad at all.

[Anonymous No.3956090]

>>3956083
Except about the light gun games part, that can be a dealbreaker to some. >>3955981
I prefer CRTs myself but I played on a modern flatscreen one recently and it wasn't that bad. I didn't notice any lag and even with a RF connection it still looked OK (for a flatscreen). People on this site tend to be dysfemistic or stress minor annoyances.

[Anonymous No.3956093]

>>3956083
>severe input lag is negligible
Yah sure thing buddy

[Anonymous No.3956124]

>>3956083

kek

[Anonymous No.3956136]

>>3955967
1. Fixed resolution - LCD's have a single resolution. Low res games have to be scaled. Scaling introduces artifacts and input lag.
2. Motion blur - LCD's have motion blur that cannot be disabled. It's extremely noticeable when an image is scrolling at a fixed rate, IE nearly all retro games.
3. Picture quality - LCD's are extremely sharp, great for hi-def content.... but sprite based 2d games lose all their depth when displayed on razor sharp displays. They also appear extremely pixellated and ugly.

Those are some of the main problems. LCD's also have poor contrast, poor colour, complete inability to display blacks etc
>And what would be better ?
A CRT if you can find one. Otherwise you're stuck with a flat panel - in that case use emulators and find a shader you like.

[Anonymous No.3956287]

IT'S NOT LIKE THE DEVELOPERS INTENDED IT DESPITE THERE NEVER BEING A COMMON STANDARD IN THE FIRST PLACE

[Anonymous No.3956296]

>>3956287
None of those resemble an LCD though

[Anonymous No.3956297]

CRTs fucking suck, I'm glad they're gone. Looking at one gives me a headache after an hour, whereas I've spent 18 hours gaming on LCDs without any strain.

[Anonymous No.3956321]

>>3956297
You should not be playing for hours, did you even read game manuals?

[Anonymous No.3956325]

>>3956297
Lol

[Anonymous No.3956409]

>>3956297
the average /vr/ kiddie that doesn't even understand basic things like refresh rates right here

[Anonymous No.3956441]

>>3956297
please take a break at least every two hours!

[Anonymous No.3956801]

>>3956136
I agree with you in general, but this following item is false:
> 2. Motion blur - LCD's have motion blur that cannot be disabled. It's extremely noticeable when an image is scrolling at a fixed rate, IE nearly all retro games
There are many monitors/TVs that address this now. My 55 inch TV has an impulse mode that brings the blur to imperceptible levels, if not outright eliminates it. And my monitor/video card support a feature called ULMB (Ultra Low Motion Blur) that does the same thing. I think this general tech had been around for a half decade or so.

[Anonymous No.3957237]

If you use original consoles or 240p emulation (Wii, for example), ie going for the original aesthetic intention; then go for a CRT in the garbage. Games do look much better thanks to it. However, unless you're really dedicated, it's absolutely meaningless.

I personally currently play with a Wii and a PS2 in my tube TV to play games up to 480i, missing the Sega Saturn on the way. For 2D games it is a pretty big deal, while with 3D, specially in the frame of entirely 3D games and subHD resolutions, which is the 6th and 7th gen, I couldn't care less between any of them.

[Anonymous No.3957339]

>>3955967
Nothing. The autistic assholes who tell you otherwise will also tell you emulation sucks because its "only" 99.99999 percent accurite to"le true retro experience".

The reality is that as long as you're not a moron, you can play games on anything. Emulated old games on your pc monitor is just fine, and has no effect on the experience at all.

"Purists" are always morons and assholes. No exceptions.

[Anonymous No.3957351]

>>3955967
Part of the problem is that your "new" -- which is okay

If you didn't grow up playing the games on CRTs, and holding the original controller in your hand -- you'll just never understand and that's okay too

[Anonymous No.3957352]

>>3957339
you don't need to be a purist to enjoy CRTs. plenty of people use them to emulate on instead of using real hardware.

[Anonymous No.3957383]

>>3957352
No, but i was referring fairly specifically to the purists on this board who claim that a crt is the only way to play, or people who talk about the "true retro experience" and shit like that.

The point i tried (and i suppose failed) to get across in my post is: whatever you like will do just fine. Don't listen to purists because they're assholes.

If you like CRTs and aren't a purist asshole, then that's cool with me, lol.

[Anonymous No.3957412]

>>3955967
Nothing I just think pre-sixth gen games look better on a CRT and it's nice to have one for light gun games if you're into those. The only thing that really pisses me off is when something that's meant for 4:3 is played in 16:9.

[Anonymous No.3957576]

>>3955981
>cats
#1 reason for having CRTs

>>3955987
>because they're not underage
FTFYK

>>3956083
>To summarize, I'm angry my mom won't let me put a CRT in my room.

[Anonymous No.3958716]

Many of the things in this thread are based on old information, or myths. In the past few years, LCD's + Line Doubler (OSSC) has become the superior way to play retro games for many people*. But you need to be smart when purchasing.

>LCD Lag
Over the past decade, lag between CRT and LCD has closed in most cases (particularly monitors). With exception to broadcast or early model CRT's (which have near zero, but are smaller), most CRT's have lag comparable to gaming monitors (CRT's can be as high as 25ms!), and it varies by signal (console resolution) on CRTs. Check displaylag.com charts too see what TV's or Monitors perform the best. For proof on CRT lag, see here: https://smashboards com/threads/work-in-progress-perfect-setups-tv-monitor-console-capture-device.355292/page-7#post-21307864

To avoid signal processing lag on LCD you need a device like the OSSC (Open Source Scan Converter) in order to linedouble/linetriple.

>LCD Smearing/blurring
This was a big issue with LCDs, but has been corrected on many types of TV's and monitors over the last decade or so. You now just need to buy a monitor or TV with strobe technology. On TV it's usually called Impulse or Strobe. For emulators+monitors it's usually called Lightboost or ULMB (Ultra Low Motion Blur). Also, if it's a TV you need to put it in a game-mode.

>LCD's are too clear/sharp
This can be 'blurred' with line doublers, and scanlines can even be emulated with the devices. CRT's naturally get more blurry and washed out with time. And with 4K TV's, it's a matter of time until new devices (or firmware updates to OSSC) begin to offer shadowmask emulation. Emulator shaders can offer this today.

* To qualify the superior comment, having sub-frame lag (<16ms) with a 30+ inch screen with clarity is really only achievable with LCDs. For many, this combination is of top importance. Late model CRT's which bring that size add considerable lag due to the features they stuff in them.

[Anonymous No.3958729]

>>3957383
My vhs tapes look a whole lot better on CRT
>checkmate lcd fags

[Anonymous No.3959505]

My main beef with CRT freaks is the gold standard for CRT's is the PVM, and as an owner of a PVM excuse me for saying, it looks like an emulator on a LCD with fake black scanlines on top, it's that sharp and clear. Naturally the color and refresh rate is better but that's true of any CRT. I mean I guess I'm a hypocrite as i own one but I mostly bought it based on the ravings of internet mad men and when I got mine in the mail off ebay before prices went thru the roof, I felt severely underwhelmed.

The other favorite meme I hear is how LCDs don't have the resolution to emulate a shadow mask/aperture grill, which while true, most of the detail is not needed or seen sitting a foot or two away from the screen anyway.

[Anonymous No.3959514]

>>3959505

My iMac 27' plus a light CRT filter and scanlines did just fine. :/

[Anonymous No.3959525]

>>3956287
The developers developed for common 90s TV with AV/S-Video output.

Also, watch this:
https://youtu.be/kILeyo1iv0A?t=1m19s

[Anonymous No.3959534]

>>3957383
But if want to have a true retro experience you NEED a CRT, or it isn't retro at all.

It is a new way of playing. How dumb can you get?

[Anonymous No.3959606]

>>3959534

What defines a "true" retro experince though? How many many of us had a $15k broadcast monitor in their homes growing up to play games on?

[Anonymous No.3959741]

>>3958716
>massive bullshit
Top kek kid

>>3959505
PVMs are a burgerican meme. The rest of the world has large multi system CRTs that do RGB and have a great picture. We use those.

[Anonymous No.3959747]

dude come on, its like comparing the sistine chapel to a photograph of the sistine chapel.

[Anonymous No.3959785]

>>3959606
A true retro experience is defined by playing with retro controllers, consoles and TVs.

If it is not like this, it is modern gaming.

[Anonymous No.3959793]

>>3959606
Also, you just need a simple 90's TV with composite/S-Video to play retro, it is actually for what the developers designed the graphics.

Genesis can't output transparency with RGB cables, as an example.

[Anonymous No.3959868]

>>3958716
>Over the past decade, lag between CRT and LCD has closed in most cases
Closed, but still orders of magnitudes different.


>This was a big issue with LCDs, but has been corrected on many types of TV's and monitors over the last decade or so. You now just need to buy a monitor or TV with strobe technology.
No. Getting that helps but it doesn't eliminate it entirely. It's still pretty bad.

>with a 30+ inch screen with clarity is really only achievable with LCDs
Perhaps you meant CRT because it's still not achievable with LCDs and likely won't be. They'll also look worse even attempting it with shitty colors, pixel geom, and blurry motion. It's likely going to take new tech or newly released old tech to really get great displays in the future.

[Swift S. Lawliet !!VIQsbxF6xwO No.3960992]

>>3958729
Nice, but I prefer LaserDiscs.

[Anonymous No.3960997]

>>3960992
...which also look leagues better on a CRT...

[Swift S. Lawliet !!VIQsbxF6xwO No.3961002]

>>3960997
Correct.

[Anonymous No.3961008]

>>3959868
Yes, the smear is solved with those technologies on LCD: https://www.blurbusters.com/zero-motion-blur/lightboost/

And only LCD's will give a clear image that doesn't bloom/blow out from age.

And 8-10 ms lag really doesn't matter. That's half a display frame. Again, most still-clear CRTs (late 90s, or >30 inches) have that or higher lag. Look at the evidence posted in what you quoted.

[Slayer No.3961113]

>>3956441
Its every 45 mins now lol.

[Anonymous No.3961118]

>>3956297
>CRT induced headaches

Are you underage?

[Kya !kDashing02 No.3963697]

>>3958716
>>3961008
>With exception to broadcast or early model CRT's (which have near zero, but are smaller), most CRT's have lag comparable to gaming monitors (CRT's can be as high as 25ms!), and it varies by signal (console resolution) on CRTs. Check displaylag.com charts too see what TV's or Monitors perform the best. For proof on CRT lag, see here: https://smashboards com/threads/work-in-progress-perfect-setups-tv-monitor-console-capture-device.355292/page-7#post-21307864

Every model listed there that has a reading above the micro-second level is either an 100hz model or an ED/HDCRT, which scale exactly the same sort of ways as LCDs.

Framing only "early model" smaller sets as being the only one's that are lagless is facetious and purposely abusing half truths. Of the two problematic types above, the former only really exist in a large capacity in Europe(and Australia) where the poster is from, and else where the latter are relatively easy to discern from normal SD sets elsewhere.

On the topic of size, there are plenty of SD models available in the 30''+ range that will give a quality picture without introducing any sort of processing of lag, and these are still relatively easy to find in comparison to the smaller sets which have already been snatched up years ago. Admittedly, because they're boat anchors, but still.

People are more than welcome to play their retro stuff on LCDs or what ever they'd like, but don't purposefully go out of your way to try and misinform.

[Anonymous No.3963873]

>>3959514
You mean the one with a 5k screen?
Yeah, that can do shadow mask details just fine.

1080p, however, is only JUST high enough res to do scanlines.