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3847379 No.3847379 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]

I've been playing a lot of retro RPGs in the last year or two. Everything from Tales, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Phantasy Star, Mana, etc.

Why do some of them work while others fall flat? Why do we remember Chrono Trigger fondly but rarely talk about Breath of Fire?

>> No.3847387

>>3847379
Breath of Fire III is probably actually a better overall experience as a game than Chrono Trigger.

The answer to your question is hype/marketing. Half of the people who call Chrono Trigger one of the greatest games of all time or Ocarina of Time or whatever probably haven't even played them they're just parroting other people responses.

It's the exact same thing as people who say Citizen Kane is the greatest movie of time without seeing it just because they want to look like cinephiles

>> No.3847394

>>3847379

Chrono Trigger is perfect in these categories:

+ Graphics
+ Gameplay
+ Music
+ Cast
+ Story
+ Pacing

Best retro RPG ever made

>> No.3847409

>>3847379
"JRPG" is an incredibly broad an basically meaningless term. A lot of my favourite games are JRPGs but they're good for different reasons. For example, Fire Emblem 5 is good because of level design that encourages varied tactics. Romancing SaGa 2 is good because of exploration/adventure and the tactics are mostly about building a team for each boss fight. Ys games are good because of boss fights that test your reactions. Dungeon crawlers are good if they have dungeons to crawl and are well balanced or something like that. etc.
You might as well ask what makes a good game in general because JRPGs can be basically anything they want to be.

>chrono trigger
Marketing. And not just because people haven't played them, it's that people are influenced by what they're told about the game. If someone played Chrono Trigger without knowing that it's considered to be a masterpiece they would be far more likely to criticize it for having boring as fuck gameplay, but people are hesitant to do so when their opinions conflict with the common consensus.

>> No.3847425

>>3847409

>If someone played Chrono Trigger without knowing that it's considered to be a masterpiece they would be far more likely to criticize it for having boring as fuck gameplay

Wrong.

Dragon Quest has boring as fuck gameplay yet regarded by many a JRPG masterpiece series.

>> No.3847426

>>3847394
no

>> No.3847440

>>3847425
For the exact same reason. DQ became an iconic franchise after a fuckton of marketing.

>> No.3847451

>>3847379
for me the top priorities are music, character design and atmosphere, not necessarily in that order. jrpgs are so fucking long, those three elements need to be good if a game wants to hold my attention for 80 hours, but after that pretty much anything goes. i'll even tolerate the boring story and gameplay of secret of mana because everything else was done so well.

>> No.3847465
File: 205 KB, 768x1024, frog.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3847465

>>3847426

>> No.3847481

Muh Tori yam a muh dbz
Muh best jrpg of Al times

>> No.3847484
File: 153 KB, 900x576, magus.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3847484

>>3847481

>> No.3847513

>>3847387
>>3847409
the key words were "we" and "remember", not "people" and "parrot".

this is where you say the game is shit and leave it at that instead of making sweeping generalizations that add nothing to the discussion.

>>3847394
>+ Pacing
this is key for me, especially with story. game writing is generally bad, but it can work when it's pithy (or if it's silly banter). scenes should be just long enough for their level of impact. this keeps things moving and focuses on gameplay.

>> No.3847563

>>3847387
This, but I wanna subvert some things.

Chrono Trigger is fun. That's it. People roar about ot because they want status as a hipster retrophile and it was a game in SNES era that featured alternate endings. Sometime around a decade ago Chrono Trigger was one of those games that if you knew about it, you were hot shit. It didn't actually sell through the roof originally as RPG's were a struggling genre in video games at the time. Eventually enough people said "Why hasn't everyone heard about this game?" and it saw revival as a cult classic, making a lot of people's "Top Underrated Games" list. Ironically, this led it to becoming an overrated game but mind you it took several generations of consoles before Chrono Trigger started seeing ports and official download releases.

But the game does not have particularly enthralling character arcs or twists lile today's game may have. It's a simple game with multiple endings. Now it's hard to see games like this in their own rite because it is now held up to an all new standard. You can say the same with Earthbound, FFVI, and Secret of Mana. They got hyped back onto the radar years ago to the point where it seems like a marketing campaign. Even though it's not entirely fair to put them up to the standards people now set for them. Just like how it's not fair people don't even play these games and hype them and by doing that overshadow other classics that would enjoy ports.

The exception here is Secret of Mana. Even back in the day that game was a boring piece of shit.

>> No.3847567

>>3847563
>Chrono Trigger is fun. That's it
Sometimes that's all it takes, mang.

>> No.3847569

>>3847513
I didn't say Chrono Trigger was a bad game overall. I'm just suggesting that a major contributing factor for why "we" "remember" chrono trigger fondly is that it had a substantial marketing campaign.

Sorry I couldn't contribute to the discussion. Have a nice day.

>> No.3847572

>>3847379
>What makes a good JRPG
>Good EXP/Money Curve, basically if you're fighting battles as they come you shouldnt need excessive grinding.
>Passable story with very little fluff
>Not long for the sake of being long, 10-16 hours is plenty of time.

Fuck games like Xenogears who are 40+ hours.
>>3847387
>>3847387
Breath of Fire 3 is so full of useless bullshit, and fucking retarded mandatory minigames that it doesn't even come close to Chrono Trigger.

>> No.3847580

>>3847379
Disregarding the examples, a good JRPG needs to have two things:
>okay combat
>good writing
That's it. The rest is a bonus.
I'd add that generally truly great JRPG's need some side/post-game content, because generally story content is fairly linear and straightforward.
As a model for JRPG's I'd pick Suikoden. It does pretty much everything right.

>> No.3847602

>>3847379
Heart and good characters. Also that the gameplay system isn't a hassle and doesn't get in the way. But mostly heart and good characters.

>>3847387
Good point, but ass-backwards examples in Chrono Trigger and Ocarina of Time.

>> No.3847606

Why do people hate grinding so much? It's one of the funniest aspects of the genre in my opinion.

>> No.3847608

The best JRPGs have:

- A memorable/colorful main cast
- Good, brisk pacing
- Battles that don't take ages
- A reasonable encounter rate
- A good amount of side-content

>> No.3847614

>>3847563

>>Chrono Trigger is fun. That's it

And we all know that fun is just a buzzword.

>> No.3847628

>>3847606
Honestly, instadeath is even funnier LMAO. Dunno why people hate on it

It could be the funniest genre if they added that, grinding, and J-Pop to it, I sweaar

>> No.3847632

>>3847569
the problem is you can't actually have a discussion if everything can be dismissed as being influenced by marketing or cowtowing to popular opinion (or bandwagoning, etc). more importantly, op was obviously getting at what makes a good jrpg - components of the game itself - not outside forces that might influence opinions.

besides, this is 4chan. this isn't the place for folks too timid to speak their mind, so your latter point rings hollow here.

i do apologize for the apparant strawman though. my point was that you should just talk about the game and what makes it good or bad, being blunt if you want. theories about motives, psychology, and so on isn't relevant unless they can be tied to the games themselves. otherwise you're just treating this as another bait thread, reducing everyone to sheeple and tainting every evaluation, at which point there's no point to talking about anything.

>> No.3847638
File: 86 KB, 800x600, suikoden-ii-dragon[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3847638

>>3847394
I'm sure you meant to say Suikoden 2

>> No.3847895

Emotional connection to the characters and story is why you remember chrono trigger. And why you dont remember breath of fire.

>> No.3847908

>>3847895
Nailed it.

>> No.3847923

>>3847387
If many people repeat the same thing there's usually some truth to it.

Regardless of what others say, I found Ocarina to be a total slog compared to other Zelda games, but Chrono Trigger on the other hand was pretty damn excellent in every way. It's the kind of game in which I wouldn't change anything. If it's not the best JRPG, it's definitely close.

>> No.3847926

>>3847394
Short, linear, easy.

CT is not even in the top 5 SNES RPGs.
Not even counting action RPGs.
Not even counting tactics RPGs.

>> No.3847941

>>3847563
>The exception here is Secret of Mana. Even back in the day that game was a boring piece of shit.

As an action game that requires skill and not simply mashing the A button, SoM is less boring than all turn based SNES RPGs except possibly the Wizardry games which have difficult combat.

>> No.3847971

>>3847608
So, Final fantasy VIII

>> No.3847972
File: 42 KB, 600x476, Smug_9d906d_5762907.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3847972

>>3847941
>requires skill

>> No.3848315

>>3847379
So even after playing all those JRPGs, Chrono Trigger is still your number 1?
I find that hard to believe.

>> No.3848318

>>3847409
Nice generalizations there, nigglet. Try to imagine, if your autism will allow it, a world were people enjoy things that you don't, instead of fabricating delusional conspiracy theories about CT's popularity.

>> No.3848327

>>3847379
>Why do some of them work while others fall flat?
Same as other games and any other media, some are too bland or unimpressive while others are too mluch or too niche for the majority of the audience to handle, why do people remember and talk about the Ulysses more than Finnegan's Wake? Why do people remember Taxi Driver more than Carlito's Way? Moreover, the west only got a fraction of the japanese RPG production, so the pool of choices is even more limited for the west.
>Why do we remember Chrono Trigger fondly but rarely talk about Breath of Fire?
>We
4chanisn'toneperson.PDF, also Kattfag.
Squaresoft+Toriyama+high production values is the actual answer, but honestly it depends on where you live, how old you are and so on, the majority of posters in 4chan are american so it's only natural most of them talk about Chrono Trigger.
>>3847394
The only valid point in regards to CT is graphics, all the rest is mediocre for the kind of game it is and the time it came out.
If after all this time you think CT is anywhere near one of the best JRPGs you either haven't played anything else than a handful of games or you have incredibly bad taste.
>>3847409
Almost given up on /vr/ but then this post made my day, you're cool Anon, I'd buy you a beer.

>> No.3848387

>>3847425
I've always felt alone in this. I've never had very much fun playing any dragon quest game, even VIII. The characters, the monster designs, and the combat have always turned me off.

>> No.3848398

>>3847971
I think so. It's my favorite FF by far.

>> No.3848421

>>3847387
>>3847387
>Breath of Fire III is probably actually a better overall experience as a game than Chrono Trigger.
>almost no grinding in CT, very fast narration
>billion of unskippable encounters that do not enrich gameplay in any way in BOF series

????
Not everybody wants to press one button for 60 hours, just to unfold who the fuck is Garr and dragonboi, do you aknowledge that?

>> No.3848436

What original today is banal tomorrow. That is basically the motto for every. single. video. game ever made.

>> No.3848453

>>3848436
That's not true. Some people are content with Call of duty. Breath of fire was always bland. The thing is it had pretty good marketing in USA. In other countries it was ditched in favour of better designed JRPGs on PSX.

>> No.3848568
File: 133 KB, 900x900, 95f2aac115f5627956f99666bf14a76008bf02cd.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3848568

For me just give me a feeling of real progression and decent gameplay. Seeing my party grow feels really cool to me. For jrpgs I think the best are the dragon quest series, mother series, and metal max series. Simple but just light hearted fun.

>> No.3849101

>>3847465
sweaty froeg

>> No.3849115
File: 329 KB, 591x800, Lucca.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3849115

>>3847379

Name 3 JRPS better than Chrono Trigger and explain why they are better. Protip YOU CANT

>> No.3849119
File: 48 KB, 424x650, 15135980_906871152745666_7634069187786516478_n.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3849119

>>3848436
you are very philospihcal man

>> No.3849134

>>3847638
>pacing
Takes 10 minutes to get past the opening sepia-tone credits featuring people marching and playing soccer for some reason

>graphics
Colorform® sticker looking Vaseline® blob-job background. Hilarious.

>> No.3849863

>>3848315
I was just using it as an example. It gets talked about a lot here. Much more than, say, Skies of Arcadia or Super Mario RPG.

I wish I had specified so half this thread wasn't CT arguing.

>> No.3849926

>>3847926
Not that guy, bot none of these 3 things you listed are valid reasons to call Chrono Trigger bad.

The game is fun, it has extremely good use of colors and shading, the soundtrack is undeniably one of the best on retro JRPGs and on the SNES as well, the story is interesting and keeps you immersed, the settings, monsters and bosses all blend together nicely (except maybe in the Undersea Palace and the Black Omen), it has a nice build-up to the final boss and unlike in many other JRPGs, Lavos actually is a decent challenge.

Now, if we talk about the game being overrated, then i'll definitely agree that is very overrated, but which successful thing in this world with a large fanbase isn't overrated? It's just natural.

>> No.3850183

>>3849115
>Name 3 JRPS better than Chrono Trigger and explain why they are better.
FF 7-9
- better characters and existing protagonist
- better customization(aside from 9) and combat(aside from 8)
- hand drawn dungeons, instead of generator
- better minigames( i love CT but minigames are shit)
- FMV that build immersion with your characters and inspire adventure


CT was still a game that used SNES well. in top of my 3 SNES games, beats FF6, BOF to a pulp

>> No.3850193
File: 110 KB, 575x800, tumblr_luat7x1Iei1qginzlo4_1280.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3850193

>>3847387
>Breath of Fire III is probably actually a better overall experience as a game than Chrono Trigger.

You know you could have at least said 4. You'd still be wrong but at least 4 is something special BOF3 is just one of the worst paced games I think Ive seen.

>> No.3850198

>>3850193
>BOF3 is just one of the worst paced games I think Ive seen.
This. By the time kids grow up in BOF3, and some more interesting battles get around(combat is still terrible), you could have finished chrono trigger. BOF is just boring series, OP should give some arguments instead of making shitty threads .

>> No.3850201

>>3847971
>So, Final fantasy VIII

FFVIII's cast was so unremarkable even they couldn't remember each other

>> No.3850205

>>3847379
What do you think, OP?
You've played a lot of them

>> No.3850213

>>3850201
will 8fags ever recover?

>> No.3850216

>>3847409
I played CT some time in 2000 or 2001 and loved it. I didn't know anything about what people thought about it.

>> No.3850219

>>3850216
Same here in Poland. Many people played CT here on emulators. It was just a good game and people invited friends to play it. Marketing was nonexistent. OP sucks dicks.

>> No.3850301

>>3850193
>>3850198

>BOF3 is just one of the worst paced games I think Ive seen.
BoF3 is the most drawn-out RPG I ever played. The game has neat ideas like masters and dragon genes but man, is that pacing awful.

I always thought BoF was an okay series, a way for Capcom to cash-in the RPG popularity, until I loved the non-/vr/ Dragon Quarter for its originality.

>> No.3850321

>>3850301
>The game has neat ideas like masters and dragon genes
I like how the game fucks with you on purpose and 90% of those abilities or dragon splices don't work on any enemy. Furthermore you have to keep tracking masters and learn abilities manually from monsters, enhancing the already existing problem with game pacing.

Whereas chrono trigger is just, well, a good game.

>> No.3850329
File: 133 KB, 640x480, 12-Breath_of_Fire_IV_02547.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3850329

>>3850301

4's a good deal better but not without it's own pacing issues. That said it's at least something different in terms of setting goes being a more Buddhist mythology inspired affair rather than the Medieval Europe stuff and the combat is much MUCH better. Combos alone really make things far more engaging and this was on top of improving the master system as well as having a far more compelling story.

>and dragon genes

I never liked the dragon gene system. It sounds neat on paper but when you put in into practice it's just lame. There's simply not enough variance and a lot of genes are flat out useless. In practical sense there's really no difference between me picking, say ICE Dragon from a skill list and picking ICE GENE + DRAGON GENE. It's honestly just an annoying extra step. There's only a handful of forms and the only thing changing gene combos does is change the color and gives you the same skills.

>until I loved the non-/vr/ Dragon Quarter for its originality.

You and me are nigs. Love Quarter.

>> No.3850412

>>3850329

Changing gene combos actually changes your stats even if you get the same skills.
Some combos will get you the same powers, but varying attack, defense and speed values depending on the combination.

I personally think that was a bad idea though, and the game doesn't even explain this.

>> No.3850425

>>3850301
>most drawn-out RPG

Dragon Quest VII. Christ that game was dull.

>> No.3850429

>>3850425

I agree. Dragon Quest in general sucks. That shit should of stayed in Japan.

>> No.3850481

>>3847379
Story and a decent gameplay
Graphics are a plus tho

>> No.3850664
File: 146 KB, 560x720, chrono-love.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3850664

>>3850216

There's nothing quite like Chrono Trigger.

>> No.3850692

>>3850664
not an argument

>> No.3850694

>>3850692

True, its a fact.

>> No.3850720

>"What makes a good JRPG"
>posts nothing but overrated anime-tier trash and normie shit

Come on. You guys could have at least posted King's Field or something.

>> No.3850745

>>3850694
A game with time travel shenanigans, innovative battle system, and multiple endings?

Radiant Historia.

>> No.3850748

>>3850745
mah nigga!

>> No.3850750

>good
>JRPG

>> No.3850837

>>3850745

Not retro.

>> No.3850863

>>3850745
Chrono Trigger had no innovative battle system.

>> No.3851145

>>3850863
Another anon here, i do not agree that good JRPG has to have innovative battle system.

But to say CT had no innovative battle system?
I could understand that being said about dragon quest, FF 4,6, bof, ocean story, but seriously?

CT didnt add much, but still outshined most of JRPGs so far:
- timing of atacks did matter, in real time, not in turns(position of enemies on screen)
- combos

That was enough to be innovative at that time.

My 5 cents for gay OP and his question of what makes a JRPG good:
It's what makes a game good: not being boring. If the game has problem with delivering adequate gameplay in given period of time, it's boring. If I would want boring repetetiveness, I would go grab MMORPG like WOW. At least you can play those with friends.

>> No.3851447

CT has the following things going for it:

1. A colourful and engaging visual style, and I say this as someone who really dislikes Toriyama's art in general.

2. Really excellent music.

3. Memorable characters with personality, pretty much none of whom were duds. This is usually not true of games with larger casts, of which this was one of the first (See: Cross)

4. A plot that strikes a good balance between goofy lightheartedness, sentimentality, and powerful mythological archetypes (e.g. Zeal as Atlantis).

5. An unusually good localisation - I think this is more important than a lot of fans realise. Much of what made the game charming and memorable for Western players is thanks to Ted Woolsey.

Some of the weak points others point out in this thread can also be seen as strong points:

Short - also means very little padding; very little in the game is superfluous

Easy - keeps the story flowing and grinding/frustration low.

On a more general note, things that I think make for a good JRPG:

Good writing with a healthy mix of serious and lighter elements; world-building that provides a genuine sense of place; memorable characters who have something unique to contribute to the story and (ideally) to gameplay; an engaging plot that presents at least some interesting twist on the usual fantasy tropes; a decent battle system.

Games that hit most or all of these points tend to be the classics/stand-outs of the genre (at least for me). FF4-6-7, Suikoden II (and III and V, though not retro), Earthbound. Even games that only manage to hit most of these (Chrono Cross, FF8-9, Xenogears, Suikoden I, Star Ocean II, BoF4, etc) are still routinely held up as prime examples of the genre.

>> No.3851457

>>3850837
Nobody fucking asked you, faggot, so get raped by a paki

>> No.3851464

>>3847638

I have never played Suikoden 2, nor any game in that franchise (I am not a big JRPGer), but I have to congratulate you for actually supplying your preference along with your disagreement.

It gets tiring seeing people shit on a game while simultaneously being too afraid to put their own preference up for criticism.

>> No.3851471
File: 185 KB, 635x800, bof4-misc01.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3851471

>>3850193
>>3850198
>>3850301
>>3850329
Would you recommend IV to someone who dropped III? I want to like the series since the art seems so beautiful but III just got boring to me.
>>3850425
Eh, VII is my favorite of the entire series personally.
>>3850429
Oh fuck off, it's the king of jrpgs.

>> No.3851498
File: 10 KB, 191x264, fou.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3851498

>>3851471
>Would you recommend IV to someone who dropped III?

Yeah, Id say give it a go. Like I said it's not without some pacing issues of it's own but it's got a much more visually distinct setting, the combat is better and generally there's a lot more going on to drive you as a player.

One cool thing it does is every so often it switches you over to play as the games antagonist as he makes his own journey. It's a bit underused in hindsight but it's pretty neat and really lets you get inside his head.

>> No.3851927

>>3851457

kys you fucking nigger.

>> No.3851930

>>3850745

The DS and that game suck dick like you faggot.

>> No.3852484
File: 289 KB, 619x700, f235decc0a44e2a32ddc1383ab0bc227.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3852484

So why chrono trigger is first JRPG to be recommended?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAlekSiyoSo

>> No.3852623

>>3852484
>So why chrono trigger is first JRPG to be recommended?
You had plenty of answers in this thread.
Also:
>watching gamers on youtube
kys

>> No.3853490

>>3847425
You say that, but it's more involved than most FF entries, sadly. DQ is one of the few JRPG series that actually gives a fuck about buffs and debuffs.

Dragon Quest's triumph is in its design and what it DOESN'T do as well as what it does. The original (well, the less grindy remakes) is a master class on game design.

>> No.3853625

>>3847379
>rarely talk about Breath of Fire?

It just isn't worth the effort to have a BoF thread when you know sooner or later Kattfag will come along and destroy it. Every single time.

>> No.3853652

>>3851464
Like when people shit all over Americans on here and have yet to reveal their country, ever, in any instance?

>> No.3854749
File: 360 KB, 646x913, 14791892f54d5935e47dd4b5d70900e5.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3854749

>>3853625

>> No.3854919

>>3852484
>DS port of chrono trigger
IMO that's the worst thing you can do.
PSP > PSX > SNES > DS > iOS/Android
Also Chrono trigger just took advantage of DB popularity at the time.

>> No.3855818

>>3847379
Different strokes, as >>3847409 said. Personally I like compelling character customization and unusual combat mechanics.

>> No.3855826
File: 1.21 MB, 480x287, wrong.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3855826

>>3847394

>> No.3858138

>>3847387
>Breath of Fire III is probably actually a better overall experience as a game than Chrono Trigger.

And by "probably" you mean "since Chrono Trigger is more popular I will just say it is worse". Opinion discarded.

>> No.3858149

>>3847379
>Why do some of them work while others fall flat? Why do we remember Chrono Trigger fondly but rarely talk about Breath of Fire?

Because Chrono Trigger was an excellent game, especially for its release time. CT is a game so good its best aspects still shine even today. People love the story, the characters, the music and the overall sense of adventure.
Meanwhile Breath of Fire is just your average RPG series, with nothing really captivating about it.

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