[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/vr/ - Retro Games


View post   

File: 51 KB, 640x480, doppler4(3).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3751859 No.3751859 [Reply] [Original]

How come western game creators never made good boss fights?

>> No.3751865

>>3751859
Western game devs just aren't very good at making games, in general.

>> No.3751870

Because white people have no sense of rhythm

>> No.3751876

>>3751859

Well, most don't even really want to make boss fights. Typically when a western game has a boss fight it is only because it really wouldn't make sense for the story not to have a boss fight.

>> No.3751912
File: 437 KB, 1024x576, Hag1.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3751912

Rare had some good ones.

>> No.3751930

>>3751859
You see, Asian and Japanese culture in particular have some great myths and other folklore, which inspired their stuff like super sentai and giant robots. On the one hand, they're extremely childish, and are literally fairy tales. But on the other, they are undeniably cool. Like DBZ cool. They have demon castles with lots of traps, warriors with huge swords, giants whose stomps can shatter the earth itself, evil ghosts that will eat your baby, and so on.

And Westerners are the most snobbish, high-brow people in the world. They have a complex which makes them reject this stuff with a great deal of embarrassment. They feel a constant need to look as high-brow and elitist as possible. That's why these faggots write walls of text on how games should ascend to be art—and that's why their games are so awful.

Why are they like this? Because their fairy tales have been cucked. They forgot the nordic myths about gods making literal islands with their mighty punches, or even forest spirits. Instead they went with kiddy "stranger danger" bullshit, like a boy and a girl going to a forest and getting molested by some weirdos.

But Japanese simply don't give a fuck. They feel no embarrassment from this boyish stuff and they never forgot their pagan myths. That's why you can have Mega Man X where a robot boy with a gun for his hand fights Sigma in a huge metal suit.

Americans are better than Euros in this regard though. The '80s cartoons and violence in film/TV brought back the balls to their media. Look at the period from late '70s to '90s: Alien, Jurassic Park, Back to the Future, Terminator… That's when Americans literally btfoed the rotting "high culture" to the gutter. But then Japanese just took it one level further with Contra.

>> No.3751938
File: 29 KB, 320x240, bruiser bros.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3751938

>> No.3751962

>>3751865
That's why the western developers and publishers dominate the current videogame market in terms of quality and quantity right?

>> No.3751972

>>3751962
Dunno anything about that, but I don't own a single western-made game on my PS1, PS2, PS3, or PS4.

>> No.3751973
File: 271 KB, 317x286, 1482112344949.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3751973

>>3751962
>in terms of quality

>> No.3751976

>>3751930
This is the stupidest thing I've ever read

>> No.3751982
File: 26 KB, 400x400, f2ece840cfc33c54878d9b4b22db327f_400x400.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3751982

>>3751865
>Western game devs just aren't very good at making games, in general.

Hi, I'm Richard Garriott. You know those JRPGs you like so much? They're all basically written out of the genetic code of my game, Ultima. All that overworld stuff? That's all me. I did that.

Not the combat parts, of course. I can't take credit for that. Because that's from Wizardry. Andrew Greenberg and Robert Woodhead made that game.

The Japanese put our games together. That was a good look. We like that. But don't get it twisted for a hot second. Because *all* those games you like? All those Dragon Quest games, Final Fantasy games, Phantasy Star games...all of them? That's us. 50% Ultima, 50% Wizardry. We made that. And we're all Westerners.

Just thought you should know.

Have a great day.

>> No.3751983

>>3751976

It's real sad. Anon took one too many redpills and now he can't look at anything except through the lens of culture wars

>> No.3751992

>>3751976
>>3751983
You simply don't get it. The "big boss battle" is a canonical tradition in every king fu movie and in asian culture in general. And Japanese know how to make bosses because they have a whole bestiary of various demons and shit like that.

>> No.3752002

>>3751982
I understand what you're getting at, but they didn't do much besides serving as a platform for better games to be made, honestly. Ultima and Wizardry were not good.

>> No.3752005

>>3751992

Western lore has plenty of demons and monsters as well. The bible even ends in a boss battle (albeit a pretty shitty one...).

It's just a difference in game design, anon.

>> No.3752010

>>3752002
kys weebshit

>> No.3752021

Maybe Japs paid more attention to iterating? As in, play the boss fight, see how it feels, go back to coding and change stuff, rinse and repeat. At that time the Japanese industry was more "professional" and knew how to push their programmers and designers while western developers, as a result of the videogame crash of the 80's, were for the most part amateur bedroom programmers who started in 8-bit computers and so on and weren't used to spending so much time and money polishing stuff, while Japanese gaming was already more "corporative" and had more capital to spend in quality. Things changed as the 90's progressed and by the time Rare got its contract with Nintendo they managed to catch on and copy their design philosophies perfectly.

>> No.3752024

>>3752005
>Western lore has plenty of demons and monsters as well.
True. Greek lore alone is amazing. It alone can make great games which God of War and plenty other titles showed.

But Christianity had fought all of it as paganism. Of course it also gave us angels and all the hell creatures, but the difference was they didn't fight in fairy tales. The myths of old have been purged, instead making way for stories about god-obedient children getting candy from angels. Zero cool stuff like sex and violence.

>> No.3752035

>>3752005
I think he actually has a point, it sort of makes sense when he brings up kung-fu movies. Think of kaiju shit, manga like jojo's bizarre adventure and how the big fights are handled in that, I think you can point to some cultural tendencies that cause that difference in game design.

Building up to the big fight is universal but the japs definitely do have a stronger tradition of once that fight happens it's with a giant monster or guy who throws his armor off after he's hurt and shoots knives out of his ass or something

idk if the analysis that westerners tend to do less spectacular boss fights because of some internalized complex about old pagan myths being childish and stupid is 100% right but it's not a totally unreasonable point to make

>> No.3752037
File: 55 KB, 710x698, .png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3752037

>>3752002
>Ultima and Wizardry were not good.

>> No.3752039

>>3752002
this. Ultima and Wizardry were prototypes, Dragon Quest and its imitators were good games.

>> No.3752040

>>3751972
that's because you're a weeb. nothing wrong with that, but there it is.

>> No.3752041

>>3751962
>in terms of quality
niggas can't make good boss fights even after the 2000s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv5Wmb7Ga7U

>> No.3752049

>>3752039
lmao being this much of a cucked weeboo.

>>m-m-muh Dragon Quest XXXIV! m-m-muh Final Fantasy XXXIIV-2!

>> No.3752058

>>3752035
Yeah, that's what I wanted to say. I didn't really want to make it sound like a redpill story. I was talking only about a sense of boyish excitement about cool fights and so on.

As for "internalized complex", it was just mostly bants.

>> No.3752065

>>3752049
name one good Wizardry or Ultima boss fight then.

Yikes.

>> No.3752071

>>3751912
rare's bossfights are terrible.

>>3752049
did you get lost on the way to /v/ or reddit or something?

>> No.3752076

>>3752071
>rare's bossfights are terrible.

I dunno anon they really nailed them in DCK2

>> No.3752082

>>3752076
Meant DKC2 shit I'm hungry

>> No.3752087

>>3751982
Richard "I took D&D and copypasted it to PC with added graphics" Garriott

Superior WRPGs, aka "Origin is now a name of EA service", aka "roll your character, whoops you rolled wrong faggot!", aka "bruh I like RPGs, like Fallout 4, Skyrim, the list goes on", aka "no plot is for men"

Inferior JRPGs, aka "everyone knows there are just 3 JRPGs in the world, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest and Phantasy Star", aka "West owns RPG like Britain owns America", aka "I never even had a console but I just know JRPGs are garbage"

>> No.3752092
File: 365 KB, 1600x740, cb10216b4721fc46db91a79af4bee55dc90123c13ebcc11a50980d384ca1a4a1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3752092

>>3752065
Just curious, but do you know why the Ultima series took a different direction after Ultima 3? I'm guessing you don't.

>After his own company released Ultima III, Garriott—who attended an interdenominational Christian Sunday School as a teenager—realized (partly from letters of enraged parents) that in the earlier games immoral actions like stealing and murder of peaceful citizens had been necessary or at least very useful actions in order to win the game, and that such features might be objectionable.

>Garriott stated he wanted to become a good storyteller and make certain the story had content, and that 90% of the games out there, including his first three Ultima games, were what he called "go kill the evil bad guy" stories. He said that "Ultima IV was the first one that had ethical overtones in it, and it also was just a better told story.

And sure as shit it was. And U5 was even better. But criticizing Ultima for not having good boss fights is to overlook what is in fact the game's biggest strength and what makes it unique. I'm not saying that this is therefore the reason why "Westerners cannot create good boss fight sequences" - but the whole point of Ultima was to show that you could have a game that did not culminate in that, for reasons that have nothing with their inability to make games well. If the game ended in a Big Boss Showdown the game wouldn't be what it is. The whole point is *not* to have a big boss fight, because that's exactly what becoming the Avatar is about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_IV:_Quest_of_the_Avatar#Development

>> No.3752104

>>3752087
Total nonsense. I love JRPGs to death. That they're descended from Ultima + Wizardry. It doesn't diminish them to me. They're part of the continuation of a wonderful medium and they are an awesome artform. What you're getting salty about has absolutely nothing to do with my post.

Unclench thy sphincter and meditate on the mantra, KEK.

>> No.3752109

Not retro (maybe) but Transformers for the PS2 had some decent boss battles

>> No.3752129

>>3751859

>dis nigga dun turn into a space marine to fight me?!

>> No.3752135

>>3752024
>but the difference was they didn't fight in fairy tales... Zero cool stuff like sex and violence.

how to tell someone hasn't read much literature

Christian lit pre-Reformation was filled with weird strange stories, lurid sex tales, monsters, fighting, blood etc.

>> No.3752203
File: 77 KB, 1280x720, death glare.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3752203

>>3752002
>Ultima was not good

>> No.3752334

>>3751938
the only time up to that point in the game those monsters appear

and they're not a challenge at all, only maybe because of the spectres flanking the player

if they had seeking fireballs like the revenants or summoned more demons they would have been worthy as bosses

> in 1993 this wouldnt have been a problem since in 1994 doom2 came out and did the same thing with other monsters

>> No.3752404
File: 22 KB, 225x348, 105596.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3752404

>>3751859
>X3
>Good Boss Fight

>> No.3752420

>>3752035
The west could drawn influences of something even cooler than kaiju and anime (and that actually greatly influenced anime and japanese games). It's like west forgot their own strengths.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20FhxjCaSEk

Actually western developers, like current western animators, don't really understand what they're doing. They are mostly fans of games and anime and don't care to study the art behind the influences. They just copy the derivative products.

>> No.3752514

>>3751865
agreed

>> No.3752539

>>3751982
To be honest, this is usually fairly typical of the west. It seems like all the new concepts and solutions that push mediums forward come from the west, usually in a raw, unrefined format. The west is more concerned with pushing the envelope on things and discovering the new.

The east however very rarely bothers with revolutionary concepts. Instead, Japan tends to focus on evolutionary development, taking what they have and refining it, improving on various aspects here and there, sometimes with a bit of ingenuity, and sometimes with brute force programming.

Even though this is not always the case for both, it's still something that happens more often than not. And because of that, both sides have games worth playing, just in different ways.

>> No.3752559

>>3751859
X3 is probably my favorite X game for the SNES, but I actually thought it had the worst Sigma fight. Always thought this design was stupid AF.

>> No.3752563

>>3751859
but that boss fight is awful

>> No.3752573
File: 574 KB, 1746x1746, maxresdefault.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3752573

>>3752539
Couldn't agree more.

Ultima and JRPGs are near and dear to me. I love Dragon Quest. I love the fact that they haven't tinkered with the recipe, which means that by the time they get to VIII it's been refined to a masterpiece. I like that conservative approach to things: people like it, so they keep making what people want. In the long run you get all of these little details, and it's because of that that it really *would* be wrong to say that the modern JRPG really "belongs" to anyone in particular.

Then you look at FF. They keep making kind of the same story again and again, but I think there's an evolving process going on there too: the crystal fetishism of FF4, the magitek stuff in 6, the thoroughly steampunk/whateverpunk world of 7...right up until 15, which is basically about the 1% driving around in a big car. DQ sticks with Toriyama, FF has Amano, Nomura...

Ultima kind of remade Britannia in its own way, with the Age of Enlightenment/Guardian story that unfolds from 4-7 (8, whatever). And they created Ultima Online, too, which is...kind of a thing also.

Anyways, I'm fully in agreement. I've always been struck by the Ultima games growing out of what were genuinely an existential question for RG - around this time, there was a kid who died in some steam tunnels LARPing Tunnels and Trolls - and how that sat with him, and he produced U4 as a result.

The Japanese didn't need to do any of that (although they did have their own narrative going on, with the 'Final' part of Final Fantasy and all, so it's not like there wasn't some angst involved there either). And it's a good thing they didn't. And hell, they *put* Wizardry and Ultima together, and produced Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy. Life is only the richer for having all of this stuff.

And as much as I love all things Ultima, those guys have nothing on Uematsu.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1AUNqugOQ0

>> No.3752801

>>3752573
Western games music, while some of it is fairly iconic, always seems to be lacking compared to the east. It's usually atmospheric or orchestral, and while it fits the game pretty well, it usually isn't something you find particularly interesting on its own.

>> No.3752818

No offence, but I really hate it how much people overrate boss fights in general. Spam your best magic and items to win (JRPG). Hit the glowing eye 3 times to win (platformer/adventure). I can't think really think of many final bosses I genuinely enjoy in terms of gameplay. It mostly has to do with atmosphere/visuals/music 99% of the time.


>>3752801
What are your favorite OSTs? I'm guessing most of them are pop/rock oriented with the main focus being on melodies.

>> No.3752837

>>3752818
>I can't think really think of many final bosses I genuinely enjoy in terms of gameplay. It mostly has to do with atmosphere/visuals/music 99% of the time.
I pity you.

>> No.3752847
File: 20 KB, 640x257, u5stones.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3752847

>>3752801

It's a tough call for me. "Stones" is pretty great. It fits that game perfectly, and is another one of the things that makes Ultima what it is. It's the sound of Britannia.

But I'd probably agree. Thinking back on Western RPGs I can't recall off the top of my head a lot of really amazing music to compare with the JRPGs. Like all things Dragon Quest, those pieces by Sugiyama only seem to get more charming (the Intermezzo!) as the games continue to work the same magic over and over. Uematsu has made so many freaking amazing pieces for FF over the years it's utterly ridiculous. The Terra theme from FF9 is amazing. And you can go down the line with him: Decisive Battle, Terra's theme (FF6), Dancing Mad, whatever. And some magnificent bastard has remixed the PSII soundtrack also. I included a Golden Axe cover just for kicks.

I guess that's the thing about JRPGs. They really are my favorite genre. The art, the music, the core mechanics that just keep getting tinkered with and improved (holy fuck, the number of features in Metal Max Returns is insane)...they've done more than just complete something that started earlier, they've taken it all to this new cinematic level.

Stones
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzFsgg_nh0g

Battle Field (cover)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWWrD7rT7Hw

Deadly Mota (remix)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihL6n9s-PzM

I have to apologize at this point because this isn't even remotely connected to the original thread topic. Does taking a chainsaw to John Romero's head in DOOM not count? Not really I guess.

You're right, OP. The West does have a problem with boss design.

>> No.3752916

>>3752818
I'd have to think on a favorite OST, but I do like the electric tones of the original Megamans quite a bit, and there's several tracks throughout the Final Fantasies that I like. SMT always had some nice music too especially Strange Journey, I liked chaos themes had a primal sort of chant and heavy use of drums, neutral/human related music was composed with trumpets and other brass instruments, and law was strong on the "angelic" choruses.

The west has well done stuff too, but the stuff I'd remember is fewer and further inbetween. I think the music played after you get the Highwayman in Fallout 2 will always stick in my head, and a few of ultima's tracks stay with me as well. I was just listening to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n37hfNfSmi8 earlier today.

>> No.3752924

>>3752847
Speaking on sound effects like in DOOM, that's actually something that sticks with me the most. I still know all the death sounds of soldiers in the original C&C, the firing noise of just about every weapon in DOOM, Quake, Half-Life, Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, it doesn't matter, I've heard them all so much they're stuck with me now.

>> No.3752929

>>3752924
DOOM is different. It was s'pose to have ambient shit for themuzak but somewhere along the line they decided to ROCK OUT.

>> No.3752931

>>3752420
Popeye is my favorite anime

>> No.3752936

>>3751938
lol no. not even close. not even trying.

>> No.3752938

>>3752924
Oh, and speaking of C&C, it's got an OST that I find very, very memorable for the west, though it's composition is a bit unique compared to most OSTs.

>> No.3752939

>>3751962
Do you mean 'resemblance to my favorite HBO shit' by quality?

>> No.3752964

>>3752939
still better than "resemblance to my favorite pedo harem anime"

>> No.3752969
File: 112 KB, 1335x714, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3752969

>>3752964
>cuckold fetish soap operas
>better than anything

>> No.3752993
File: 25 KB, 600x597, 1485037319272.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3752993

>>3752002
>Ultima and Wizardry were not good

>>3752039
Nigga how is DQ similar to Wizardry

>> No.3752996

>>3752002
Wizardry was so good it became an honorary Japanese game. They made a fucking anime about it.

>> No.3753038

>>3752818
>with the main focus being on melodies.
Yeah what a pleb. Liking melodic music. Music should have focus on some buzzword we use to defend incompetence and mediocrity. Melodies? Fuck that noise, who needs them anyway?

>> No.3753116

>>3752404
it was a fun fight to figure out, the sequence afterwards is stupid though

>> No.3753117

>>3752993
this your first day here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sglKS-HfZMw

>> No.3753128

>>3751865

This.

>>3751962

Because western devs have higher budgets to work with. They're still as shit at game design and developing interesting game mechanics as ever, but people gravitate towards the fancy graphics and garbage stories like a moth to a flame.

>> No.3753582

>>3752818
Japanese games with boss fights demand you to get skilled, Western games just want you to sink enough time into it. The former is inherently more exciting.

>> No.3753715

>>3753582
What's the difference between getting skilled and sinking enough time in? It sounds like this is merely a joke reply, since you haven't given any examples or explanation.

>> No.3753717

>>3751982
BULLSHIT.
This is lies, and anyone can tell cause -

If it's Persona, Shin Megami Tensei or Etrian Odyssey, then it's 100% Wizardry.

More seriously, if it's a sim RPG like Fire Emblem, then it's instead 30% Ultima and 70% Lazer Squad.

>> No.3753735

>>3753715
in a skill based game the amount of time needed to become skilled is based on the individual and something that truly engages the player, a timesink is just something the dev devised to keep players busy and takes the same amount of time for everyone. Skill based games (Japanese) are like shooting a home run, timesinks (Western games) are like using a lawnmower.

>> No.3753746

>>3751859
Because Western devs never really dominated in genres that involve/rest on good bossfights - west specializes in western RPGs (which have tactical combat and a single enemy will always be easy in a tactical game), adventure games, action adventure games, racing games, strategy and tactics games, and first person shooters (it's hard to have good bossfights in first person shooter since biggest advantage of 3D is enemies being able to assault you from many direction, but with a single strong enemy it vanishes) - i.e, genres that best worked on PCs.

Japanese devs dominated in fighting games, beatemups, shmups, run'n'guns, hack'n'slashes (and derivatives like character action), action RPGs, jRPGs (which thrive on exaggerated spectacle), and platformers - i.e. genres that best worked on consoles and arcade machines.

Like, note that only SOME Japanese companies have good bossfights, like Capcom and Treasure. I don't recall a single Nintendo game that has good bossfights. Bosses in Zelda are either hard and unimaginative or a pathetic joke that's easily killed with the dungeon item, every single Mario boss after SMB1 is a waste of time and their games would be better without them, Metroid bosses suck the least - but they are still endurance borefests where you're supposed to dodge a super simple pattern of 1 to 3 attacks until either you or the boss runs out of health, and they're only an exciting challenge when speedrunning.
Kirby is the only Nintendo series with good (but easy) bosses - but it's not developed in-house, but by HAL.

In comparison, some western creators DO have cool bossfights, like id, Rare or People Can Fly.

>> No.3753756
File: 2.48 MB, 440x440, 1446165934382.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3753756

>>3753746
>west specializes in action adventure games

>> No.3753767

>>3752002
jRPG as a genre is dead. Most popular rpgs in Japan are western-style action RPGs like Dark Souls and Dragon's Dogma, latest Dragon Quest is an action RPG/Minecraft hybrid, latest Final Fantasy is a MMO, Paper Mario was turned into an adventure game two installments ago and it's time to accept it's final.
Kingdom Hearts was always an ARPG since the start, Persona was always a Wizardry-style dungeon crawler and never an actual "jRPG", Fire Emblem is a tactical RPG - - and really, sim RPGs would be only kind of japanese invented RPG that's still kicking around, and with revival of western tactical RPGs like Jagged Alliance, XCOM and nuShadowrun, we'll probably start to see genre blending soon.

So, question - if games of this genre were "better", why are western RPGs like Witcher, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, Tyranny, Pillars of Eternity, Wasteland 2 - still being made - while the 'superior' genre is effectively dead outside of fucking Pokemon?

>> No.3753771

>>3753767
>latest Dragon Quest is an action RPG/Minecraft hybrid

The last main Dragon Quest game was DQ IX and it had traditional turn based combat.
Dragon Quest X is coming up and it has traditional combat.
The remakes of VII and VIII came out for 3DS, and they still have traditional turn based combat.

Shin Megami Tensei IV/Apocalypse also.

>> No.3753773

>>3753767
>Dark Souls
>western-style action RPGs
Thanks for saving time and putting it in the top of your post, you fucking imbecile.

>> No.3753779

>>3753756
I'm talking about modern open world sandboxes. I hate to call them "action adventure" because they are usually 'adventure' in name only (I think only Arkham games would qualify, and even then mostly in parts they rip off from Zelda), but they're most commonly called that, and that's the genre I'm talking about.
(Also, actual action-adventure games are either dead - like Metroid, Metal Gear Solid, Silent Hill, Resident Evil - with sole exception of Zelda - or western, like Dishonored, Hitman and Deus Ex, or indies, so it's not very inaccurate either way).

>> No.3753786

>>3753773
Freeform character creation, focus on stats and classes, roleplaying primarily through interacting with NPCs (including quests/questlines) and world in various ways, including moral choices, free exploration. Demon's Souls even had a karma-like system.
As RPGs, Souls games are western. Sure, combat is obviously based more on Japanese action RPGs rather than western ones (Diablo/Dungeon Siege/Sacred) - but we're not talking about western vs Japanese action RPGs (which Japanese action RPGs obviously won - not that it was hard with underwhelming crap like Space Siege and Diablo 3 on western side), we're talking about western classic RPGs versus jRPGs.

>> No.3753798
File: 234 KB, 668x635, 1425374965215.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3753798

>>3751859
Most of the games with great boss fights I think of right away were japanese.

>Einhander had great bosses

>Bayonetta bosses and enemies in general had really cool designs.

>Not even memeing, but Zelda series and the whole "puzzle format" of most bosses is done really well, both in 2d and 3d zeldas.

>Castlevania series has always had cool boss fights even if the way you approach them is usually the same. Its a player mastery thing.

>Monster Hunter series is really nothing but boss fights and is similar to Castlevania where its all pattern dodging, reactions and response rather than how you tackle it.

When I think of western shit I think of stuff like God of war or Prince of Persia. I'm not really into the former while the latter is more about exploration and environment than bosses. (Though the Dahaka in PoP2 when its chasing you was incredibly cool, though its hardly a boss)

I dunno, are there any other quality western games with bosses to break down? There's surprisingly little in the SNES/Gameboy Era for western games which is where I started.

>> No.3753804

Prince of Persia on SNES was developed by japanese devs, and it added boss fights.

>> No.3753806

>>3753798
Dahaka does fight you at the very end, it's nothing particularly spectacular though.

>> No.3753817

>>3753806
I heard about it, but I played PoP2 on a rental and had to return it. I left off right where the prince finds fhe mask of the wraith? I think. I'm not sure how far from the end I was.

When I heard from a friend that you fight him it seems kind of baffling given how threatening he was. Does the mask somehow protect him or was there a gimmick to it? Or did he just decide he'd had enough and pulled some badassery?

I need to buy a copy sometime, haven't played two thrones either.

>> No.3753831

>>3753817
water hurts him and the Prince gets his hands on a water sword.

>> No.3753836

>>3753831
Ahh, semi gimmick it was then. How easily he grabs you with his chest tentacles during the chase made it seem like going toe to toe even with a weapon would be suicide. Thing was menacing as hell.

>> No.3753850

>>3753735
Give me some examples of skill based bosses.

If it's
-Spam best items/magic to win
-Hit glowing eye 3 times to win
-Trial and error to win
Don't bother replying.

>> No.3753854
File: 79 KB, 300x400, Ikaruga_01.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3753854

>>3753850
What do I win?

>> No.3753859
File: 96 KB, 888x500, Untitled.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3753859

>>3753854
no wait, this is a much better example.

>> No.3753879

>>3753850
Literally any vs puzzle game ever.

>> No.3753903

>>3753717
My original post was about that other anon saying Westerners can't make good games, and how so many Japanese games are built on models and templates derived from them. Saying that a game is 100% derived from Wizardry and not 50% doesn't refute that point, it confirms it.

I'll grant you that the 50/50 split refers to those series I mentioned: DQ, FF, and PS. So I supposed I shouldn't have said *all* of them - okay, you're right about that. Just a very large number, and also the ones that are the most popular and the most successful (and this is not the same as saying, 'the best').

But again, Laser Squad is designed by Julian Gollop, another Western guy whose model is then taken and refined and developed by Japanese developers. It's a pretty consistent pattern.

I will re-iterate: I think this is a *good* thing. Garriott himself is building on D&D, which is building on Tolkien, Howard, etc...influence goes back infinitely in this way. But I think you understand what I'm saying. Japanese games borrow concepts from Western models and refine them and recombine them (or just repeat them in ways that become increasingly awesome). It's not a bad thing. It's just forest > trees.

>> No.3754035

>>3752573
>crystal fetishism

You're missing:

>effeminate male fetishism
>monsters with extreme physical features (a bazillion limbs, a bazillion heads, etc.)
>over-the-top attacks and magic (e.g., summoning gods that aren't even relevant to the game's world, floating Einstein equations)
>extremely bizarre outfits
>global catastrophe plots (e.g., Kefka destroys the world, Sephiroth tries to destroy the world)
>lack of consistency in everything (Asian restaurant in a medieval European town, WTF?)

A lot of Japanese RPGs have zero sense of subtlety. They have to go over-the-top in everything.

>> No.3754226
File: 11 KB, 320x256, Brainpan.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3754226

>>3754035
Yup. No doubt. The Japanese are a different bunch, that's for sure.

The crystal fetishism is only interesting to me because after FF4 things seem to head for a while in this increasingly technological dimension and away from high fantasy. Both FF6 and FF7 deal with disaster motifs and technology in this way, and I kind of feel like the airship armada and the crystals and the moon men and so on were beginning to look into the always-interesting fantasy/technology relationship. Dragon Quest never went in for high-concept worldbuilding the way FF did, and FF settings aren't expressly science fiction in the way Phantasy Star is (these being the JRPGs I have the most familiarity with, so pardon my somewhat limited frame of reference)...but the FF games were always in that weird place in between, with 'espers' and crystals and airships and so on. And now of course FFXV has you being in the 1%. It seems to get less fantastic as things go on. I'm okay with that.

But in general that other stuff is what I like, or partly. DQ is super-conservative by nature, and the big evil in the Phantasy Star games is repeatedly 'Dark Force' - a giant evil libidinal evil thing sealed away in a box. FF is always in this process of trying to figure out what it's all about, which is why it gets into technology, these different settings, and so on. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. Their idea of what constitutes 'fantasy' is pretty far removed from Tolkien and a lot closer to Michael Moorcock.

>tfw Amano-Moorcock tag team fuck yes

But I agree, some of those things are off the charts. These fucking things always seemed incredibly weird. "Brainpan?" "1000 Needles?" These things creeped me out.

>> No.3754236

>>3752087
Don't talk about games you've never played underageb&

>> No.3754305

>>3751982
The only game you inspired was Dragon Quest which made the "interface"
between game and player way better, then other game developers looked
at DQ and copied/modified that to create all the other games you
mentioned, Mr Richard, also you copied all your shit from D&D.
FAGGOT.

>> No.3754307

>>3754305
Not to mention that Dragon Slayer was released before the first Dragon Quest.

>> No.3754315
File: 42 KB, 638x321, 687474703a2f2f7777772e67616d6572616e782e636f6d2f696d616765732f757064617465732f313239343035333236395f7175616b655f6670732e6a7067.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3754315

>>3751865
Shut up faggot.

>> No.3754320

>>3751859
Because the concept of "bosses" is retarded.

>> No.3754323

>>3754320
Found the "nu western developer".

>> No.3754360
File: 25 KB, 425x283, 633604383054117630.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3754360

>>3754305

>> No.3754409
File: 245 KB, 900x851, 1466095329418.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3754409

Because Western games nowadays are so piss easy why bother designing a boss if it'll go down as easily as the rest of the enemies? You might as well just put more trash mobs in.

>> No.3754495

>>3753735
Are you seriously making the claim that there are no skill-based Western games? FUCK OFF.

>> No.3754630

>>3751930
I was poised to disagree with you cause you sounded like a faggot but ultimately ended up agreeing with you at the end.

Europeans are indeed gay and shit up everything

>> No.3754634

>>3752021
>as a result of the videogame crash of the 80's, were for the most part amateur bedroom programmers who started in 8-bit computers and so on and weren't used to spending so much time and money polishing stuff
You're only speaking for the European scene right now, and Europeans are fucking garbage at making video games with the sole exception of Rare. Plenty of American arcade games/RPGs with great design and boss fights. The "bedroom programmer making a shitty game then sending it off to a publisher to reproduce and flood the market with garbage" phenomenon didn't happen here.

>> No.3754638

>>3754409
Maybe you should stop playing shit games, anon.

>> No.3754730

>Ahhhhhhhh.... fresh meat!

>Hello, and welcome to the Aperture test facility

>"has exhausted the resources of a galaxy..."

>YOU'VE MURDERED MY CHILDREN

>Hear me nightelves, the final battle has come

>Did you blink?

>beep-boop (sound of mecha-hitler)

>Say your prayers. toitles

>> No.3754740

>>3754730
>RUN COWARD

>> No.3754797

I blame Lord of the Rings honestly, most of the boss fights there resolve with the characters running away or just barely managing to not die or something. It's really shit.

>> No.3754985

>>3751859
how come weebs are so insecure

>> No.3755072

>>3754740

>brrrrrrrt

>> No.3755486

>>3754315
Any half-decent light gun title is a much better shooting game.

>> No.3756459

Why focus on boss fights? Western developers are shit at action games in general, with only a few exceptions like pre-2007 FPS/TPS

>> No.3756472

>>3756459
Cause if western devs actually do manage to make a decent action game, their bosses tend to be garbage

>> No.3757754

>>3751859
looks great