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/vr/ - Retro Games


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3602107 No.3602107 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]

I think I hate this game. I used to really love it, but playing it again recently has made me feel really unsatisfied and disappointed.

The pistol is totally useless. The chaingun is unsatisfying and barely ever has ammo. The rocket launcher has horrible hit detection. You're never going to use the shrinker outside of blasting annoying fat commanders and battlelords. The devastator is worthless outside of fighting octobrains. and rarely has ammo. The freezethrower feels annoying and redundant. The only weapon that's really worth anything is the basic shotgun. So basically, one weapon from Doom 1 - except it doesn't even rise to being as good as Doom either. Every enemy outside of the most basic grunt takes multiple shots to kill, meaning most of the gameplay requires awkward strafing at groups of enemies which will inevitably shoot back at you with precise accuracy. While we're on the subject of enemies, this game is a total bore in the enemy department. I already mentioned that almost all of the enemies are annoying bulletsponges, but what's worse is how ugly, boring, and unvaried they are. Any map you play will inevitably boil down to: pig/chaingunner shooting at you. Play any level, official or fanmade and this will always be true. A total joke compared to Quake, Blood, and Shadow Warrior- which are all far superior games in terms of variety, levels, weapons, etc. Those games were released after DN3D? Sure. But again, original Doom is still way better. I cannot stand to fight more groups of bulletsponge pigs and chaingunners, with a shotgun, with no ammo, in an ugly gray environment. I'm going to be sick. I think the reason why everybody likes Duke Carribean so much is because that expansion actually has personality, despite the flaws.

Thanks for reading my stupid rant about a 20 year old game. I hope you understood my complaints. Feel free to nitpick this apart, or tell me I'm bad at the game, but I don't think you can convince me otherwise.

>> No.3602145

>>3602107
Yeah ok.

>> No.3602148

>>3602107

Press the Enter key every once in a while

>> No.3602149

>>3602107
>I think I hate this game.

Sure thing bub.

>> No.3602161

I have to agree with you about Doom 1 being better under all aspects, though u can't rly complain about the environment, it's at least as gray and dull as the Doom's

>> No.3602172

>>3602107
Nice blog but it wasn't really worth reading.

>> No.3602176

RPG. Is so satisfying doe

>> No.3602195

>>3602161
No way. People for some reason don't seem to remember that Doom has tons of vibrant colors, despite a lot of it taking place in hell, caves, factories, etc. It's not a typical gray shooter. There are blues, reds, purples, greens everywhere. Play the first few levels of Doom. It has way more colors and textures than you remember. Far superior environments.

>> No.3602204

>>3602195
I've been playing Doom for 1 month now, and I don't seem to remember such an environment as the one you described... Perhaps I'll pay more attention to the surroundings the next time I'll put my hands on that game

>> No.3602205
File: 1.49 MB, 640x480, 1477004278208.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3602205

>>3602107
bad player
bad opinions

>> No.3602206

>>3602107
>complaining about how any FPS doesn't play like doom
>ever

Yeah, that's right. Duke Nukem is not a god, unlike Doomguy. The weapons and ammo are balanced and you must know how to use it in order to carry on in the game. If you want to play the proper Doom FPS experience go play Doom 64.

>> No.3602248 [DELETED] 
File: 11 KB, 250x260, 1423001794893.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3602248

>It's a "Doombaby dislikes [FPS NAME] because it doesn't play like Doom" episode

>> No.3602250

Never liked Duke - it was the "normie" entrance drug to the genre. Not much power in many weapons and they feel off. Goofy enemies and cheesy lines.
For its time it had some astounding strengths though - some of the architecture combined with the textures made for a memorable ride both in gameplay and looks. the design in some of the maps may be its most redeeming quality. Coop in "Project Manhatten"(or whatever it was called) was the shit back then.

>> No.3602258

>>3602250
Doom or Wolf3D is the "normie" entrance drug to the genre. Both are simple and easy to play and extremely optimized for shit PCs so anyone could play them. If you think they are hardcore obscure gems you are retarded and underage because everyone played Doom at one point or another either in DOS, windows 95, or consoles.

>> No.3602268

>>3602258
Doom is probably the easiest FPS. Even Medal of Honour and Call of Duty are harder. I'm not even joking.

>> No.3602270

>>3602250
>>3602250
>Never liked Duke - it was the "normie" entrance drug to the genre.

The only way this sentence is justifiyable is if you're a try-hardcore FPS player who's all over shits like Alien Breed 3D or Gloom.

>> No.3602271
File: 30 KB, 1023x767, MightyFoot.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3602271

You have been visited by the Mighty Foot. Low quality threads will be saged until they die but only if you put sage in the options field and post "Mighty Foot Engaged!" In this thread

>> No.3602276

>>3602271
Mighty Foot Engaged!

>> No.3602279

I swear to god, if this game silently spawns another fucking Battlelord right behind me...

The biggest problem with Build games is too many hitscan enemies. They're no fun to fight.

>> No.3602309

>>3602270
Duke had a more commercial appeal with enhanced interactivity(some of them gimmicks)... it was lighter on the stomach, thus the "normie" seal of approval. Many folks back then that would not touch Doom were fond of Duke. p.s.: Gloom and Co. suck.

>> No.3602318

The main problem with Duke3D is how shitty Build's movement feels. It also hampers my enjoyment of Blood quite considerably.

>> No.3602319

>>3602318
But Blood and DN3D's movement are nothing alike.

There is no such thing as "Build movement". Perhaps you mean mouse movement.

>> No.3602329

>>3602319
>Perhaps you mean mouse movement.
Yes, pretty much. Even with the mouse patch, it still feels like shit. Kinda reminds me of the Aleph One port for Marathon.

>> No.3602334

>>3602329
I don't see any issues with mouse movement unless you are a source port spoiled babby. Try lowering DPI on your mouse for blood it makes a huge difference.

>>3602279
See >>3602205

>> No.3602335

>>3602107

>The pistol is totally useless. The chaingun is unsatisfying and barely ever has ammo.

That's all I needed to read.

>> No.3602343 [DELETED] 

>>3602206
My complaints aren't specifically that it doesn't play like Doom. My complaints are that the weapons and enemies are boring - which is undeniably true.. I'll repeat myself: every level of DN3D (official or fanmade) ultimately boil down to fighting gangs the same two boring enemies, the pig and chaingunner. Looking past the fact that several of the weapons were a new thing at the time of release, none of them are particularly good, except maybe the pipebomb. It doesn't matter how balanced the shrinker, laser-mines, or freezethrower are because they're boring to use. Blood and Shadow Warrior, which are both harder and superior games, make full use of all weapons + alt fire .

>> No.3602352 [DELETED] 

Duke Nukem 3d is just a poor Doom clone that fails hard in the gameplay department

>> No.3602353 [DELETED] 

>>3602343
>every level of DN3D (official or fanmade) ultimately boil down to fighting gangs the same two boring enemies, the pig and chaingunner.

>every level
"chaingunner" which doesn't even appear in the entire first episode.

>> No.3602356

>>3602271
Mighty Foot Engaged!

>> No.3602363

>>3602271
Mighty Foot Engaged!

>> No.3602375

>>3602343
I actually sort of agree with this, although I like Duke. Duke is more about weapon selection for certain situations - each enemy is best dealt with using this weapon, etc., but Doom mixes and matches enemies and enemy placement along with mixing in what weapons are available for you. It's much more complete range of expression more level design in Doom.

I still like Duke, and Doom's fatal flaw is that it can be too open in its design. Super shotgun works for almost every enemy (save cyberdemon and arachnotron, really, and even that's debatable if you're playing really well) and it's hard in Doom to actually have a mapper-player rapport because of that, because the moron is looking for shotgun shells when the damn point of the level is to see how you deal with large amounts of cannon fodder with only rockets available, or something like that.

>> No.3602387

>>3602353
But pigcop is present in every level of the first episode. I can't really say assault troops are particularly challenging or interesting. As for the octobrains, they are even more tedious because they have higher health.

>>3602375
I don't really dislike Duke as much as I'm sperging out. I'm just sick of it, after playing for several hours and having a bad time. You're totally right about mixing enemy variety too. In Blood you've got several types of cultists, zombies, spiders, gargoyles, hellhounds, reapers, crawling hands, water beasts, etc. In Shadow Warrior you've got basic ninja, advanced ninjas with different weapons, coolies, ghosts, several types of ripper, guardians, female warriors, sumos, etc. Things can get chaotic/different depending on location and enemies that are present. Duke never really has that same effect in terms of enemies or weapons. It's very basic and straight forward.

>> No.3602404

Every time I read an FPS thread on /vr/, I die a little inside. Duke's main competition at the time was Quake and I think both blow Doom out of the water in different ways. Duke's enemy behaviors are way more advanced with enemies that can fly, teleport, go prone, hide and level design that is far more intricate with vents and rooms over rooms in almost a proto half-life kind of way with believably designed areas with a sci-fi spin on them. There's also a good amount of verticality in episode 2 thanks to the advanced engine and I find Duke3D to be far more enjoyable when pistol starting than Doom because of how levels are structured with lots of opportunities to approach enemies in different ways. Quake cranks up the verticality and goes the opposite way of Duke with crazy levels and way more verticality than Doom or Duke. The multiplayer is top tier too.

>> No.3602408
File: 1.37 MB, 200x150, 1362450534918.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3602408

>>3602107
tl:dr

>> No.3602413

>>3602404
Just close your eyes anon. It's what I do every halloween when a "castlevania" thread pop up. The inevitable spiral of shitposting about either "x is the hardest" or "xvania > xvania" just isn't worth it.

>> No.3602435
File: 223 KB, 998x2798, 1463380446570.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3602435

I'm pretty much convinced at this point if somebody doesn't like Duke 3D (or Blood and SW too I guess) that they're just a die hard Doomfag who hates everything that isn't Doom. If you're a fan of retro shooters I can't see how you wouldn't like Duke 3D too. Just to clarify, I'm not shitting on Doom, but some people take their fandom of it way too far sometimes. Just look at the Doom general.

>> No.3602581

>>3602435
I liked Duke3D but that was when I got it on PS+ for free (back when i was a console fan). The motion blur made me feel physically sick. No game has ever done that! Although I should go back to it.

>> No.3602587

>>3602435
>a die hard Doomfag
I'm a huge Doomfag, and Duke 3D is one of my favorite games ever, OP is probably just a mad cuck who's bad at videogames.

>> No.3602605

>>3602435
>>3602587
pretty much, doom and duke are bro games

anybody that likes duke but not doom or doom but not duke is a faggotron

>> No.3602625 [DELETED] 

>>3602605
Don't lump build engine garbage with Carmack's genius. In fact, how dare you.

>> No.3602654

>>3602625
Both engines took a lot of shortcuts obviously. It wasn't until the more complex quake engine where his genius shows. By having a real genius Michael Abrash to help him.

>> No.3602657

>>3602625
Ken Silverman is a Carmack-tier genius. The reason Build is such a clusterfuck of code is because it was started by his 14/15 year old self.

>> No.3602676

>>3602657
What's Ken been up to these days anyway?

>> No.3602684

>>3602676
This, apparently.
http://www.voxiebox.com/

>> No.3602690

It's true, Ken is like a savant, don't slam him for the way Build's code looks.

>> No.3602694

>>3602684
Ah. That's cool I guess.

>> No.3602702

>>3602690
>>3602694
http://advsys.net/ken/voxlap/voxlap05.htm
Some sick voxels right there

>> No.3602709

>>3602625
Build engine was very impressive for its time. I personally think Unreal engine is much more impressive than id tech. The software renderer for Unreal engine is magical.

>> No.3602718

>>3602709
If 90's Prey had materialized, it's engine could have wiped the floor with UE1.

>> No.3602728

>>3602718
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L29DSSQT3Ek

We really lost on this one, what happened that got it delayed for so long?

>3D Realms

Ooooooohhh....

>> No.3602729
File: 130 KB, 800x600, cycloid.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3602729

>>3602107
>ugly gray environment
Sorry but this part of your argument is false on an objective level. Duke has easily some of the most colorful, varied environments in an FPS that I can recall.

>> No.3602730

OP you sound like a massive dick sucker. The pistol is my favorite weapon in the game and you can totally wreck shit with it if you don't suck balls.

>> No.3602732

>>3602728
"When it's Done", said Broussard

>> No.3602742

>>3602732
He ruined that term for everyone. Before him it meant you could still expect in a couple years or so, after him it means several revisions and way more than just a handful few years.

>> No.3602743

>>3602694

Ken is autistic for voxels. He still has the knack for engine coding but not for game design. I tested something voxel based he built that was basically a more sophisticated version of Minecraft with much smaller voxel units 4 years before Minecraft came out.

He is convinced that some day, 3D cards will include voxel acceleration and it will become the preferred basis for 3D graphics. It sounds insane, voxels are a thing of the past. But if somebody in 2010 told you VR was coming back it would sound the same way.

Some dev ought to snap him up and have him program engines desu, that's where his skills are most suited

>> No.3602760 [DELETED] 

>>3602730
It's a lame, boring weapon, regardless of skill. Just like most of this game is.

>> No.3602761

>>3602743
Wasn't that new Everquest game supposed to be voxel based?

>> No.3602767

>>3602718
I think the fact that Prey went through so much development hell is a testament that the engine isn't as good as UE1. What's impressive about UE1 is how feature rich the software renderer is.

>> No.3602769

Cool story bro. You did not mention anything decently positive. For example, the opposite of the shrink ray the blower upper ray thing was cool. Especially in the strip club. You'd blow up them titties and ask them to flash and he'd be like.... yeah shake it baby.

>> No.3602776

>>3602761

I dunno. That'd be cool. I mean if you think about it, reality is voxel (particle) based. Ultimately one way or the other, to get realism totally identical to real life, you need an engine that renders down to the atomic level. So voxels will dominate one day, Ken's just too far ahead of his time.

If you go to /r/simulated you can see how perfectly photorealistic small chunks of simulated reality (the shoreline of a beach for example) can look when made out of imperceptibly small voxels.

But those simulations aren't real time, they're precalculated. And they are just small chunks of an environment. We are as far away from realtime 3D worlds made out of imperceptibly small voxels today as we were from realtime polygon graphics in the 1960s.

>> No.3602787
File: 13 KB, 320x200, Realistic terrain, done entirely in voxels.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3602787

>>3602743
He actually wrote a standard polygon engine called Polytex back in '95. It was a piece of shit in everything except texturing speed, and he's stuck to voxels since.

>>3602767
Prey's development hell had nothing to do with the engine. Most of the Prey devs left, and work shifted towards DNF. if PreyTech had actually come out, it could have been revolutionary.

>>3602776
Pic related; it's a picture of ken's Voxlap engine.

>> No.3602789

Rpg has pretty good aim actually you can easily shoot through the window and break the wall in level 1 as soon as you get it. I don't remember the last time I actually took the back door

>> No.3602812

>>3602676
oversharing on his website: http://advsys.net/ken/

>> No.3602823

>>3602743
Wait can't 3d cards already do voxel acceleration? I mean a voxel is just a cub, and 3d cards can handel cubes just fine. So why don't you just turn your voxels into cube polygons and let the gpu render it with hot greasy speed?

>> No.3602839

>>3602823
Probably because honestly no one that matters cares about voxels anymore

>> No.3602880

>>3602107
>I suck so the game is bad: the post
/vr/ is such a faggot.

>> No.3602898
File: 1.64 MB, 1280x720, beachsim.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3602898

>>3602839

They will when the computing power exists to do stuff like you see here, but on the scale of large game environments.

>> No.3602926
File: 3.00 MB, 640x480, duke hitscan.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3602926

>>3602107
>Every enemy outside of the most basic grunt takes multiple shots to kill, meaning most of the gameplay requires awkward strafing at groups of enemies which will inevitably shoot back at you with precise accuracy.
lol

>> No.3602936

>>3602926
Is that eduke or DOS version?

>> No.3602943 [DELETED] 

>>3602404
>Every time I read an FPS thread on /vr/, I die a little inside.
I agree. There is absolutely no saving /vr/'s FPS community. It's the most faggot infused shithole I've ever experienced. I'd say it's even worse than /v/. I hardly even come to /vr/ anymore it's so fucking horrible. I never go to the doom babby general; it's beyond decrepit.

>>3602936
Can you really not tell you magnificent shitter?

>> No.3602947

>>3602943
I cannot to be honest. eDuke's software renderer looks pretty good but DOSbox version still holds up great and supports high resolutions.

>> No.3602953

>>3602898
Dayum bro, thought that was real, like a diorama

>> No.3602956

>>3602435
Could be this or maybe it's like a pepsi vs. coke thing. Do you like your FPS black metal with demons and satanic stuff, rip and tear? Or do you like your FPS big guns, big explosions and big t&a?

I'm a duke3d guy, Doom just never grabbed me. I can totally see the appeal of the game, it's just yet to win me over. I think a lot of it has to do with growing up on a diet of 80s action movies, which the kid in me still loves and that's duke.

>> No.3602990

>>3602947
well its dos bb x

should be obvious tee bee aitch

>> No.3602994

>>3602926
Pig cop's shooting animation is hilarious. Why does he hit the deck just to get a shot off lol

>> No.3602995

>>3602990
I play eDuke in software at 800x600 and it looks about the same.

>> No.3603012

Duke is better than Doom because it lets you press use to manually operate elevators without having to wait for it to move like in Doom

>> No.3603013

>>3603012
Pretty much this.

>> No.3603035

>>3603012
Decades of bickering, and in the end it all comes down to this. It was that simple.

>> No.3603102

>>3603012
now that you mention it doing that always felt incredibly satisfying

>> No.3603107
File: 5 KB, 256x192, hey zeus.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3603107

>>3603012
>play duke
>go into lift
>stand there waiting until I remember it's manual
Dammit.

>play Doom
>go into lift
>miss an elevator or stand on one waiting for something to happen when I press use, because I was playing Duke earlier
>nothing happens
Shit.

>> No.3603110

>>3603107
kekekek

>> No.3603280

>>3602107
>Duke 3D
>The pistol is totally useless.

This has to be bait

>> No.3603296

>>3602195
If you compare Doom to Quake, then its indeed the more vibrantly colored game. But by itself, Its not as colorful as people make it out to be. While Reds, Blues, and Greens do get used (especially in episode 3), its still mostly Browns and Greys that dominate the art.

>> No.3603348

>>3602107
If you dislike DN3D what do you think of Duke Nukem Time To Kill? I just downloaded it but haven't played it yet.

>> No.3603401

>>3603107
>Dammit.

Really? Elevators in Doom are a MESS. If you tell me you've never had an issue with them, never got up/down when you didn't want to, never had to walk off and back on the elevator because it wouldn't trigger, only to see it activate when you step off making you waste even more time, if you tell me this never happened to you, I know you're lying.

This shit is a direct consequence of Carmack's "make it as simple as possible, even more simple than it should be" philosophy.

>> No.3603470

>>3603348
Decent but the difficulty is really punishing

>> No.3603483

>>3603401
>never got up/down when you didn't want to, never had to walk off and back on the elevator because it wouldn't trigger, only to see it activate when you step off making you waste even more time, if you tell me this never happened to you, I know you're lying.

This is caused by getting on the lift while it is still moving and thereby not triggering the linedef you crossed to enter it. The lift will then trigger as soon as you cross the linedef again - ie: get off the lift.

>> No.3603692
File: 16 KB, 403x169, Dukestips.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3603692

BTW - World Tour got an update.
>true widescreen
>fixed sound quality
>it's not possible to turn off auto-aim (although sometimes it turns itself back on for no reasons)
>mini-bosses no longer kill themselves with their own rockets


Pic is protip for some of the anons ITT.

>> No.3604023

The real reason Duke is worse than Doom is there isn't any monster infighting.

>> No.3604104

>>3603692

When it updates again to take 75% off the price, I'll buy it

>> No.3604112

>>3604023
One of the downsides for sure.

>> No.3604121

>>3604023
As much as I fucking love Duke, this is a very solid point, monster infighting is the tits.

>> No.3604182

>>3604023
It would literally make the game too easy since so many monsters do splash damage.

>> No.3604212

>>3604182
Don't explosions do damage to anyone and anything short of boss monsters, regardless of friend or foe?

I seem to recall a fat commander greasing some pigs and troopers with a volley of rockets.

>> No.3604252
File: 69 KB, 337x425, arnold duke.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3604252

I never liked the pistol either. It's too weak and wimpy. It even has a very weak sound effect and the loading sounds like a can of cola being crushed.

>> No.3604269

The one problem with Duke is that an enemy that explodes when it touches you has more hit points than a pig cop.

>> No.3604334

>people hating on Douk's pistol ITT
What the fuck am I reading? It's an excellent starting weapon as FPSes go, and it remains useful throughout the game. Accurate, decent fire rate/DPS, sounds good, reloading looks cool. People got some weirdass opinions about Build engine games, I don't get it.

>> No.3604341

>>3604334

The Duke pistol is one of my favorite FPS starting pistols, next to Marathon's stupidly strong dual pistols.

>> No.3604374

>>3604023
Blood has monster infighting though.

>> No.3604378

>>3604374
Actually using google I can't find anything about it but I swear I've seen zombies fight eachother.

>> No.3604390
File: 51 KB, 640x400, still the best.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3604390

>>3604334
It's easily the best starting ranged weapon in any classic FPS, not including Hexen of course.

>> No.3604393

>>3604378
blood definitely has monster infighting but it isn't terribly useful. The enemies are challenging enough one-on-one with the player that using them against each other with any sort of efficiency is too difficult and doesn't occur that often in standard gameplay, hence the lack of footage.

>> No.3604452
File: 24 KB, 480x318, HP_45_L_large.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3604452

>>3604252
Bang sounds like a fitting bang.
Magazine going in sounds like a magazine going in.

It vaguely looks like a Hi-Point though, or one of it's progenitors, so maybe that's why it sounds kind of cheap.
The shotgun was actually digitized from a Winchester 1300 shotgun (with some aftermarket parts), which I believe was owned by George Broussard, so I wonder if the pistol was also digitized from a real gun owned by one of the devs, or if they just went the Id Software route (where they just bought a squirt-gun modeled after a Beretta, spraypainted it black, then did some post editing).

>>3604334
>It's an excellent starting weapon as FPSes go
>and it remains useful throughout the game
Agreed. Need to set off some explosives? Rattle off some rounds. Need to go into underwater combat with some sluggish octobrains? Perfect fit, it even sounds deep and meaty underwater too, I love this.

>decent fire rate/DPS,
>sounds good
>reloading looks cool
Yep. I particularly like how the reloading is fast and instant, only briefly interrupting your shooting, and it makes sense too from a gameplay perspective, since this makes it more of a separate weapon from the Ripper Chaingun Cannon, and in a little bit of a world-building kind of way, it shows Duke being experienced and trained, knowing his way around guns very well.

>accurate
Eeh, sort of, switch shooting puzzles can be a bit of a chore/drawn out because it actually doesn't shoot all that straight at any long distance, but for closer quarters it's good enough to hit mansized targets (or larger) and just magdumping.

I definitely think it's the best starting weapon of the 2.5D FPS era, because it's actually pretty useful. The fact that it DOESN'T share it's ammo pool with the machinegun or other weapon also makes it much more useful, because it means you have something to fall back on proper if you're out of belt and shells for your other firearms, especially given how many magazines you can carry.

>> No.3604463

>>3604452
>>3604390
>>3604341
>>3604334
>>3604252
One of my favorite things to do is to use the Freezer Ray to ice a Protector Drone Alien, then quickly swap to the pistol and shatter them into pieces with one shot, a bit like in Terminator 2, complete with a one-liner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bK5yxICtSk

I love the exotic and unconventional weapons in Douk.

>> No.3604470

>>3604463
>I love the exotic and unconventional weapons in Douk.
This. Not to mention they're all viable.

>> No.3604504

>>3604470
That too.

It's easy for people to think
"What? A Shrink Ray? That's so dumb and cartoony!" but it's actually incredibly fucking good, because anything short of a boss monster or a protector drone just needs one ZAP and then you can effortlessly crush them under your heel, even the bothersome fat commanders.
Also it kinda fits the gently comedic tone of the game, it takes something which is basically a children's cartoon, but takes it to it's logical gruesome end.

What's even better is that the effect can be used on the player, either for a hectic and dangerous moment (such as being shrunk by a drone), or for creative level design (having to shrink yourself with a mirror or having to activate a stationary ray).

I love the Shrink Ray.

>> No.3604530
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>>3604504
Anyone know if there's a mod out there that includes the Expander in the base game? I've always loved that gun but you only even get to use it in The Birth and that's a shame; not to mention it only holds 50 which is far too little.

This is one reason I love the N64 version because it has the Expander throughout the game and the ammo is increased to 99.

>> No.3604582

>>3602107

I kind of agree.

Playing Duke Nukem 3D was a rewarding experience, it was a fun game and a fun FPS but the problems it has are overwhelming. Every enemy IS a bulletsponge, even for the shotgun, most of the other weapons have almost no ammo pickups to find, and some weapons are so awkward to use that they often end up killing you instead of the enemy. The bosses are just endurance tests too.

Some episodes are really short. Some are annoyingly drawnout just by having the classic cryptic keycard/key bullshit we know from Doom. Having them is fine, but making me traverse a level for 2 hours because its some kind of annoying key-door-puzzle or an arbitrary trial-and-error switch combination I need to solve annoys me.

It's not that I think it's a bad game. The game is good. But that's kinda just it. The internet has hyped up Duke Nukem 3D as one of the best games in the world, and shat on DNForever, but really comparing the two I'd say it's an okay sequel. The original is not that great to begin with.

Shadow Warrior for example is a way better FPS experience since most of the problems addressed in the OP and here are not present there, although it's the more obscure 3DRealms game.

> become proficient / bait / sage

If you can offer no argument to falsify what has been said, it's best if you don't post at all. Tell me why I'm wrong, why I need to git gud.

>> No.3604608

>>3604582
The only bulletsponges are the Fat Commanders and Mini Battlelords, the latter being a mini-boss so it's okay and the other being Shrinker bait. I honestly can't believe people are whining that it takes two fucking shotgun shots to kill pig cops and enforcers. The only weapons that's awkward to use is the tripmines but that's always been a deathmatch weapon. Other than that every single weapon is useful and there's generally enough ammo to go around, speaking as someone who just finished a pistol start through all 5 episodes.

While FPS bosses are generally shit on the whole, Duke's got the Devastators which are boss killers and are readily available for at least 3 of the 4 bosses.

Duke's level design is pretty spot on and if you're spending two hours in anything other than Smithsonian Terror then I don't think you're playing the right games.

>> No.3604630
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>>3604582
>Every enemy IS a bulletsponge
Not really. Pig cop takes two shotgun shells at most, take a shot, quickly strafe into cover as you're pumping, then peek out again for the second shot.
Octobrains might be a bit hardy, but they generally only need one rocket or bomb to handle, or just circlestrafe them as you hit them repeatedly with the pistol, shotgun or chaingun, they're not fucking smart enemies.

The game also gives you more than enough powerful weapons that this isn't a problem, I never found myself short on pipebombs, rockets and charges for the shrinker and freezer, weapons which people forget about sometimes.

>and some weapons are so awkward to use that they often end up killing you instead of the enemy
Holy fuck, I play Megaton on my PS3 and I don't have this problem, and I don't even have mouselook, you must really suck at videogames or have the worst situational awareness, don't use explosives in close quarters, it's literally that easy.

>The internet has hyped up Duke Nukem 3D as one of the best games in the world, and shat on DNForever, but really comparing the two I'd say it's an okay sequel. The original is not that great to begin with.
I hope you die tbhfam.

>> No.3604656 [DELETED] 

>>3604608
>>3604630
> pig cops not bullet sponges

Well then it's my subjective opinion. It takes too much time to kill them, cover/pumping is an obvious tactic, but against 3-5 massed in one area it just takes too much time, it's not fun, and the shotgun feels weak. That is not something you should do to your shotgun.

> Holy fuck, I play Megaton on my PS3 and I don't have this problem, and I don't even have mouselook, you must really suck at videogames or have the worst situational awareness, don't use explosives in close quarters, it's literally that easy.
> le you suck at video games argument

No, I don't. Using explosives in close quarters is bad. Every schoolkid knows that. Situational awareness is a given. The problem is not using them in specific situations, the problem is that they delivery method is awkward in conjunction to the situation aka level design. You've got a lot of tight corridors and corners to navigate, tossing around pipebombs and detonating them works mostly, but it still feels awkward and not fun to do. You toss a bomb down some corridor with tons of octobrains, shit goes boom and you get to see none of the action. In the worst case you drop a fuckton of pipe bombs down there and there's still some alive. Using the RPG is not an option in those situations either, and they come up way too often for my taste.

It's not that I die and get mad at the game, it's just that the most efficient way to play isn't as fun as it is even in other 3DRealms games. Bunnyhopping around in Shadow Warrior blasting rocket after rocket, grenade after grenade and entire drums of shotgun rounds to blast down everything in sight is fun. Constantly strafing to cover while pumping/detonating/ducking out of RPG blast range sucks. It's half as fun as it could be.

> I hope you die tbhfam
Like I said, if you can't handle statements like that without providing an argument, refrain from posting.

>> No.3604661
File: 44 KB, 1024x768, duke.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3604661

>>3604608
>I honestly can't believe people are whining that it takes two fucking shotgun shots to kill pig cops and enforcers.
People are bad at videogames, nothing new. These threads are good for weeding out the fake retro hipsters.

>> No.3604662

>>3604656
Your mind is made up and your opinions are set in stone, don't ask people to argue with you in vain and then gloat when they can't sway you.

>> No.3604663

>>3604656
SW's Riot Gun is one of the worst shotguns in history and the grenade launcher is a deathtrap unless you only shoot it around corners because the blast radius is insane.

>> No.3604665

>>3604608
>Duke's level design is pretty spot on and if you're spending two hours in anything other than Smithsonian Terror then I don't think you're playing the right games.

It's not like I said it's terrible, but it's hard to deny that that shit can happen, and that it breaks the flow and makes you want to quit the game early. It doesn't happen every level, but when something like Smithsonian Terror rolls around it's such a massive turn off that it robs me of my pleasure.

Personally I think that if the biggest challenge of your FPS is the convoluted keycard/door system, then you're developing the wrong games. If you can't admit that it's a weak point in said FPS, you're defending the wrong game.

>> No.3604672

>>3604656
>but against 3-5 massed in one area it just takes too much time
That's what bombs are for, the game gives you a lot of them.

>and the shotgun feels weak
Except it has a very tight pattern for being a 90's FPS shotgun, you can use it at reasonably long range for reasonably good effect, that's it's strength. The fact that you can keep a good distance with the shotgun is an advantage.

>No, I don't.
Yes, you do.

>>3604663
This, the Shadow Warrior shotgun was the fucking worst.

>> No.3604674
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>>3604665
>Personally I think that if the biggest challenge of your FPS is the convoluted keycard/door system, then you're developing the wrong games. If you can't admit that it's a weak point in said FPS, you're defending the wrong game.

>> No.3604685 [DELETED] 

>>3604662
Projecting, much? In my original post I used no language of "I hope you die tbhfam just because you disagree with my set in stone view that Duke3D is perfect" and "If you get lost in Duke 3D you're playing the wrong game". Instead of arguing you just resort to gloating right away. Is hypocrisy just a long word for you?

Your opinion: Enemies are not bullet sponges
Explanation: Takes 2 shots to kill, just cover before shooting again

My opinion: Enemy is a bullet sponge
Explanation: Tier 2 enemy should not take 2 full hits to the face, the amount of pumping and shooting takes too long to be satisfactory. Especially annoying when enemy appears in large numbers.

It doesn't seem like the unreasonable gripe you try to make it be.

>>3604663
I find blasting a whole drum of Riot Gun into an enemies face a joy. Keeping in the shitposting tradition, did you even find out how to use alt fire?

> grenade launcher is a deathtrap

Well someone must be bad a video games :^) Do you have bad situational awareness?

No, seriously, how is the huge blast radius in Duke3D fine, but when Shadow Warrior does it it's bad all of a sudden?

This is what I meant when I said the internet hyped up Duke3D to be Christ returned. You can't even point out the obvious flaws without getting shit on; it's like Duke's shit don't stink. Same goes for Deus Ex. It's obviously not allowed to like a game and acknowledge that it's not perfect in every aspect.

>> No.3604686

>>3604685
If you get lost in Duke3D you are probably retarded.

>> No.3604689

>>3604672
>That's what bombs are for, the game gives you a lot of them.
Really? I thought they were for blowing yourself up. Enthrall me with your erudite wisdom, great One.

>Except it has a very tight pattern for being a 90's FPS shotgun, you can use it at reasonably long range for reasonably good effect, that's it's strength. The fact that you can keep a good distance with the shotgun is an advantage.

And that makes it less weak how exactly? In that it still takes a lot of shots to kill tier 2+ enemies, but at least you can do it from slightly further away?

>Yes, you do.
No, you do.

> This, the Shadow Warrior shotgun was the fucking worst.

No fun allowed, eh?

>> No.3604690 [DELETED] 

>>3604685
Your obvious flaws aren't actually flaws, they're opinions as you stated yourself. You're not willing to accept anything other than total agreement with your opinions and then needlessly shitpost when people dare to argue back.

>> No.3604691 [DELETED] 

>>3604689
>two shots is a lot

>> No.3604692 [DELETED] 

>>3604686
That convinced me. No, wait, it didn't.

>> No.3604705 [DELETED] 

>>3604690
Again, projection much? The need of you and most posters in this thread to consolidate the impeccable view of Duke3D leads you to insult people who think differently right away.

Don't like the level design? You must be retarded.

Think the weapons are awkward? You're just bad at video games.

I accept your opinion. If you enjoy Duke3D as a 11/10 I'm fully with you, more power to you. But if you call me retarded for pointing out the weaknesses in a classic game, then you are the one who craves unity of opinion more than I do.

>>3604691

In Doom you can kill Imps with one shotgun hit, and it's extremely satisfying to blow tons of them away with it.
Pig Cops are either equal to the Shotgun Sergeant or Imp, and they take two shots, and to me it feels less satisfying and more like bulletsponge-busywork. I don't think making that comparison or statement is that unreasonable.

>> No.3604739

>>3602107
The monsters in Duke3D are really lame.

>> No.3604784
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3604784

>>3604689
>Really? *sarcastic snivel*
If you're facing a crowd without explosives or special weapon, you only have yourself to blame for doing badly.

>but at least you can do it from slightly further away?
You're farther away from them, it's harder for them to hit you, you don't have to get up closer to them which is more dangerous. It also helps not standing still.

>No, you do.
Besides the fact that I'm admonishing you for complaining about things which aren't actually difficult? You're basically saying NO U

>No fun allowed, eh?
No fun allowed? That's what the SW shotgun is, it feels weak, it IS weak, the altfire is kind of useless, it's just incredibly unsatisfying. It looks cool but it doesn't live up to it's looks.

>>3604705
>In Doom you can kill Imps with one shotgun hit
You're comparing it with Doom, but Duke Nukem 3D is kind of different as a game, with different philosophies.

Thinking of the pig cop as equivalent to the shotgun guy in Doom is flawed, it's a big and meaty monster, it's more like the pinkie demon if it had a shotgun instead of a biting attack. They also have armor, which you can sometimes loot from them, meaning they can be an opportunity.

>> No.3604789

>>3604705
>If you can offer no argument to falsify what has been said, it's best if you don't post at all. Tell me why I'm wrong, why I need to git gud.
You're the one challenging people to change your unchanging opinions. Then you deflect any statements that go against yours as projecting or people attacking you for not praising Duke as the greatest thing ever, which, by the way, no one claimed.

You're also making comparisions that don't work. Doom and Duke have vastly different enemy rosters and don't really have a whole lot of equivalents, mainly due to enemy variety and health numbers. Doom enemies have vastly more HP than Duke enemies and there's roughly double the enemy types in Doom. Assault Troopers and Captains are sort of like Zombiemen and Seagents, and that's pretty much where the comparisons stop.

>> No.3604803

>>3604789
>Doom and Duke have vastly different enemy rosters
On top of completely different philosophy for level design, I want to add.

>> No.3604930

>>3604705
>Pig Cops are either equal to the Shotgun Sergeant or Imp, and they take two shots
But they aren't equal, because they take two shots, as you said. Trying to argue with "well, in Doom it's like THIS, so it should match enemy slot #6" is really dumb.

>> No.3605079

>>3604663
>>3604672
Plebs, swerve. The riot gun is fantastic. It can kill weak enemies with one shot and tougher enemies with quad shot. Very satisfying to use and clever design. As for the grenade launcher, I won't deny that I like the rocket launcher more, but grenades have their own use because of the bounciness of the projectile. And why is the greater blast radius a downside? Stop getting so close.

>> No.3605204

>>3605079
The SW shotgun just feels so weak, the boom is paltry and I recall always being frustrated with it's performance.

It's been really long, but did it have different spread compared to the Duke shotgun?

>> No.3605228
File: 46 KB, 800x600, duke3d.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3605228

Started playing Duke3D again because of this thread and I can confirm OP is just a pleb. Pistol is strong as fuck and pistol starting every level is much easier than doom simply because of how strong it is. Chaingun cannon is strong and fast firing and is more satisfying than the chaingun in Doom. Pigs and enforcers are easy as fuck to deal with if you're smart enough to strafe and enforcers don't even appear in the first episode. This is a classic case of needing to git gud or baiting for replies. I have trouble believing OP is being serious.

>> No.3605240

>>3605228
if there's one universal truth, it's that OP is always a faggot

>> No.3605318

>>3602107
I agree completely. I realised the only reason I liked Duke3D when I was younger was because of the gimmicks. The gameplay is weak. The other Build Engine games easily surpass it.

>> No.3605340
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3605340

Given OP's and that other guy's rant, if it really is another guy, I think the main issue with them is that they try to play DN3D like they Doom, and when it doesn't work (which obviously is always, like in Blood threads) they blame the game for it.

In other words, they spend 90% of the game sticking to the shotgun because it works in Doom. When it doesn't work, instead of you know, trying to play the game like it can be played, they blame the game for not being like Doom.

Seriously, who the fuck sticks to a shotgun against an entire horde of pigcops grouped together ? Besides, this situation rarely happens in the original game (although it does a bit more in the add-ons); but still, who the fuck kills EVERY Pigcop using 2 shotgun blasts?
If anything I like to use 1 shotgun blast, and then switch to the pistol or chaingun to finish them off, and it saves ammo too since technically a Pigcop only needs 1 shotgun blast + 1/3rd of a 2nd shotgun blast to die.
Or hell, switch to the chaingun and circle strafe in the right direction to avoid their shotguns (your angryness at "too many hitscan enemies" suggests you haven't even TRIED to dodge their bullets, which you can easily do so), or spam the pistol while using the quick kick up close to stun lock them.
etc etc, even in the first episode, there are plenty of ways to get rid of enemies, which are all fun in different ways, and many which are FASTER; and unlike in Doom, the game is more balanced and sticking to the shotgun most of the time is not a good idea.
The game's enemies and situational design promotes weapon switching.

>> No.3605348
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>>3604665
>Personally I think that if the biggest challenge of your FPS is the convoluted keycard/door system, then you're developing the wrong games. If you can't admit that it's a weak point in said FPS, you're defending the wrong game.

How exactly is level design convoluted in DN3D?
I'm asking this because behind that statement, the real problem isn't the doors or keycards themeselves, as those are only a consequence, a tool, of the level design.

If you're so keen on comparing it to Doom, if anything Duke's layout are less convoluted, a lot less "pure conceptual maze like" design. Especially compared to Doom's episode 2, which can be a mess of optional and senseless mazes.

In Duke, in the vast majority of cases you'll find the locked door before finding the key. So you only have to remember where the door is, or check the auto map if you suck at drawing a mental picture of the level (which you shouldn't suck at if you really play retro FPS).
Then once you find the key, quite often you'll find an optional or secondary path leading you on the right track of finding (back) the locked door.
Outside of some exceptions, which can be the occasional puzzle or hidden thing to break the pace a little on purpose, it's all very intuitive.

That's without mentionning the times when you're given several ways to reach the next area; the times when the next locked areas has two locked doors from two different sides for instance, meaning that EVEN if you don't remember where to go, it doesn't boil down to finding that one spot earlier in the level, but instead are more likely to stumble upon a way to advance.

I'm honestly baffled by your claim, as DN3D is the epitome of classic FPS level design and many issues of Doom like maze like design are overcome, to the point that I'm inclined to think that if you don't like DN3D level design, you don't like pre-HL level design.

>> No.3605364 [DELETED] 

Worst thing about Douk is the enemies. They're all so uninspired and in most levels enemy placement feels like it was done by a random generator.

Level design was also pretty bad, but at least it looks great. The realistic city environments were unlike anything else I had seen at the time.

>> No.3605387

>>3605340
cool picture

>> No.3605739 [DELETED] 

>>3605348
>How exactly is level design convoluted in DN3D?
It's not. He's simply a retard '90s babby gamer.

We're simply a higher breed of gamer than he is and we shall always be. Feels good being master race and growing on games like Doom, Blood, Quake, Duke, etc. That faggot was raised on Halo and COD. What chance does he have?

>> No.3605751

>>3605739
Your post is giving me mixed messages.

>> No.3605759

>>3605364
>People unironically calling douk's level design bad
Is this the FPS equivalent of "sonic was never good"?

>> No.3605795 [DELETED] 

>Shadow Warrior, which are both harder and superior games, make full use of all weapons + alt fire .
Shadow Warrior was fucking derivative garbage, and you know it. The game had an awesome multiplayer, but single player was a hot mess.

>make full use of all weapons
You probably don't remember that 90% of the weapons are entirely situational, the uzis eat ammo too fast to be useful, and you'll spend 99% of your playtime with that horrible shotgun.
One thing I really dislike about Shadow Warrior (aside from the retarded stuff like ladder inside fireplace) is how there's no balance at all in the enemies - they're either too weak (ninja, ninja chick) or too fucking strong (that fucking gorilla that makes an horrible screech).

>> No.3605804

>>3605795

>you'll spend 99% of your playtime with that horrible shotgun.
>too fucking strong (that fucking gorilla that makes an horrible screech).

All I needed to read

>> No.3605826 [DELETED] 

>>3605340
>I think the main issue with them is that they try to play DN3D like they Doom
Op here. Again, my complaints aren't that DN3D isn't just Doom. I've played Duke a fuckton. Probably more than most people in this thread, making all these lame git gud posts completely worthless. See >>3602387

>>3605795
>Single player was a hot mess
Elaborate. Most of the levels were fantastic.

>uzis eat ammo too fast to be useful
There is a ton of uzi ammo in almost ever level. What the fuck are you smoking?

>you'll spend 99% of your playtime with that horrible shotgun
see >>3605079

>there's no balance at all in the enemies - they're either too weak (ninja, ninja chick) or too fucking strong (that fucking gorilla that makes an horrible screech)
Basic ninjas aren't always particularly challenging out in the open, but at least they're fun to kill, and give some variety depending on their location/other enemies. As for the rippers, they deal plenty of damage, but you are never disadvantaged. You can kill them with the sword without taking any damage.

>> No.3605837
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3605837

>>3605795
>and you'll spend 99% of your playtime with that horrible shotgun.

>there's no balance at all in the enemies

Jesus fucking christ, I swear to god all of you, you should just mod Doom's shotgun into every retro FPS and be content with it since all you really want is Doom.
Or better yet, stick to Doom if you can't accept any game that doesn't play exactly like it.

If you think enemies HP balance is wrong and that you spend most of your time with the shotgun, I'm sorry but you don't get SW. It's got a different kind of balance, it's all about fast reflexes and higher stakes. You can die easy, but you can kill easy too. If anything the weapons have great situational balance, and the shotgun is meant for tight places with corners or cover, EXACTLY so that you can see it to "1 shot" mode and quickly sneak and get up close or Ninjas and girls to 1 shot them. The point is, they can fuck you up royally just as quickly.
I wouldn't be surprised if the same people who complain "Pigcops have too much HP" also say "SW enemies have too little HP". I wouldn't be surprised either if you spend all your time using the multi-shots shotgun fire against weak enemies at long range.

The only enemies which I think are too "weak" are the grey baby rippers (pic), they either should have a stronger attack or more hp.
The big versions of Rippers are fine. They don't even have THAT much HP unless you're trying to kill them with stars. Although the point IS for them to break the pace.

You have a point for multiplayer though. SW's multiplayer is very underrated, AFAIK it also has the first 'official' (non mod) CTF in a FPS.

>> No.3605847

>>3605826
>Again, my complaints aren't that DN3D isn't just Doom.

And yet you spend all your blog rant comparing it to Doom and explaning how this or that is bad because it's not like Doom.

>> No.3605859

>>3605837
>fast reflexes
I don't know where you got that from, because from my point of view, SW is more strategic than other games. You won't be jumping head-first into a bunch of enemies, because the areas aren't as big as Doom's.

I've played Doom, DN3D, Blood, Hexen and Shadow Warrior, and SW is definitely the one I disliked the most from the lot. Even with Hexen's mind-boggling pUzZleS oF dOoM. I had to play SW more strategically, so I used the grenade launcher and spike bomb more than probably everyone who played the game. I loved throwing grenades around corners, but not much aside that. I liked the submarine the most of the stages, because it brings most of the strengths of SW to light.

This thread just reminded me of SW's platforming sections (very few, but annoying) and random environmental kills (very annoying, specially in the final stage).

>> No.3605861

>>3605847
My complaints aren't specific to Doom, though. The only direct comparison I made to Doom is that the shotgun from DN3D (the most useful weapon in the game) is basically the same as the standard shotgun from the first Doom - not rising up to anything more interest. My other comparison was that DN3D has a pathetic enemy selection in contrast to Doom. I also mentioned Blood and Shadow Warrior, too. Shall I go on, though? I can think of way more games that have better enemies - both FPS, and not. Doom, Blood, Shadow Warrior are just the easiest comparison to make. Don't try and pretend my only complaint is that "it's not Doom".

>> No.3605862 [DELETED] 

>>3605826
>As for the rippers, they deal plenty of damage, but you are never disadvantaged.
Except when you fall into a room with 4 of them and a giant one. It happens 2 or 3 times in the game.

Given this thread was mostly trolling at the start, the thing I really dislike about shooters are enemies appearing from out of a hidden wall or something, just behind you. Those old games don't do a lot of it, but Doom 3 (not retro) really fucking overdoes it.

>> No.3605865

>>3605862
You're whining about rippers being too hard, and you accuse me of trolling? There is a million ways you can kill those things. I normally don't say this, but you simply need to play better.

>> No.3605867

>>3605861
Not him, but now that you said it, I kind of agree with the enemy selection in those games. I looked on the 3D Realms website, and indeed SW doesn't have that many enemies to speak of. Ninja, Coolie, Ghost, Ninja Chick, Gorilla, Green Warrior. And that's it.
I can't even remember DN3D's enemies, aside from Pig Cop and chaingunner. Guess every series has its own few memorable enemies, while in Doom, it's almost all of them.

>> No.3605870 [DELETED] 

>>3605865
I'm not saying they're too hard. I'M SAYING THEY'RE MUCH STRONGER THAN ANYTHING ELSE. THERE'S NO ENEMY PROGRESSION. There's no middle-level enemy. It's either ninja that gets rekt in two shots, or Gorilla that takes a quad shot to die, all while doing that horrible screech.

I usually just threw spike bombs or launched grenades at them, since you could see SW's enemies way before you needed to engage them.

>> No.3605871

>>3605867
Disagreed. Shadow Warrior's enemy selection is fantastic. As for Doom, a lot of it is decent but I'm sick to death of the annoying lost souls and chaingun fuckers.

>> No.3605879

>>3605871
There's at least 5 ninja palette swaps. And even a Noob Saibot version.
Chinese worker with explosives box.
Ghost from said worker.
Ninja chick with crossbow.
FUCKING GORILLA.
Green Guy.
Annoying stuff like bees and piranhas.

>> No.3605886

>>3605870
>There's no middle-level enemy

Except guardians
Except the four different harder ninjas
Except the wizard dudes.
Except the serpents
Except the sumos

>> No.3605997

>>3604504

Some "hardcore" players talk shit about the Freezer but it's such a fun weapon I always use it.

>> No.3606553

>>3605997
I sometimes forget I have it, because you have so many other weapons, but I often find myself using it against he xenomorphs in The Birth, because even if you miss directly, it can deflect around the place and either have a chance to hit him, or hit someone else.

>> No.3606694

>>3605861
>the shotgun from DN3D (the most useful weapon in the game)

No it isn't, every weapon has its own purpose:

>Pistol: accurate shots, good for sniping
>Shotgun: alien troops (instakill) and enforcers (better ratio of damage/sec)
>Chaingun: pigcops (you cockblock their shotgun by doing fast hits) and octabrains (sorta the same)
>RPG: blow shit up
>Pipebombs: blow shit up commando style
>Shrinker: gimmick but also useful to unlock secrets and instakilling organic enemies, the expander is nice and as accurate as the Pistol
>Devastator: high damage at a fast rate, save this for minibosses or tough enemies you need to dispose of quick
>Tripbombs: you'll rarely use them, but they can do some heavy damage in desperate situations
>Freezethrower: gimmicky, but also recoiling shots

>> No.3606828 [DELETED] 
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3606828

>>3605795
I'll never understand this 'Shadow Warrior is bad' meme. It's just as good as Blood or Duke, which one you like more simply boils down to personal preference. The reasons these shitters give for why it's bad is always kekworthy. It always boils down to them simply being total shite at the game and mistaking their own gameplay deficiencies as bad video game design. Typical shitter doom babbies.

>> No.3607158

>>3605861
The thing is, your complains show that you expect it to be Doom (thinking the shotgun is the best weapon and saying enemies like Pigcop or Enforcer have too much HP) and are not satisfied when it's not Doom. Btw if you ask me, RPG would be the most "useful" weapon.

Even the fact that you sum up the environments as "grey" and don't understand what makes them so great, shows that you have this mentality where all that matters in your FPS is the shotgun and nothing more.

For instance, saying this is being oblivious to the level design progresses DN3D is responsable of. For one thing, pre-DN3D FPS games were still stuck in the Wolfenstein maze-like style, even Doom to a great extent was. If you ask me DN3D even influenced the Doom community in that regard, as the Wolf3D mazes like moments of Doom are nowhere to be found in Doom usermaps, and that the general idea people have of "classic style FPS design" is a bastard vision of what both games do, and that the Wolf3D influences are gone from that vision.

In terms of level design there is also the use of Room over Room and in general, the will to create the feel of a true 3D environment, and they didn't have to wait to have a true 3D engine to do that.
Also the architecture, most notably the use of slopes which were new and a revolution at the time.

Then there is also how the levels constantly keep challenging the player and finding new ways to awe him; either through a series of sector or visual effects or through new things to interact with. Calling that "gimmicks" is reducing: people often easily claim Quake "won" at least as far technical advancements go, but Quake had none of that; and for instance HL1 is just as much inspired by Quake (the engine) than by DN3D (the effects, interactions, the 'realism' and the will to have strong set pieces events like a rocket flying off)

My point is you're looking at the game through Doom blinkers where all that matters is the shotgun

>> No.3607159
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3607159

>>3605997
>>3606694
Then those players aren't so "hardcore" because they clearly have never played the game in Damn I'm Good, for which the freezer is one of your greatest ally. If you're good, you can virtually freeze each enemy with one or two freeze shots (if you weaken them first with other weapons) and therefore they won't respawn, and it has twice as much ammo as the shrinker and the shots never fail like the shrinker's do.
Also combining the freezer with the pistol mean it's useful even against packs of enemies, as you can shatter frozen ones from far away.
In DM it's also a great ally because any shattered Duke will leave an atomic health, giving you the upper hand for the next encounter. Just make sure someone else doesn't pick it up first....

> the expander is nice and as accurate as the Pistol
I think it's even more accurate. Also the expander is good against groups of enemies, either to weaken them or even kill them: if there is a pack of Liztroop you only need to expand one so the explosions kills all the ones around. Plus, the expander is one extra very useful weapon to use in Damn I'm Good.

>> No.3607470
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3607470

>>3607158
I don't have a problem too much with the level design, actually. Some aspects aren't always perfect, but they did a very good job with the new technology they had, and it's easy to see the influence it had when they attempted to re-work the more maze-y designs of the past, to create something more organic. The official levels of the game, by the way, are so much better than 99% of user level, which are all just so boring, and barely even begin to take advantage of what the engine is capable of. It definitely makes you appreciate the effort they went through to make everything as grand and interesting as possible. I guess my point is that Duke doesn't hold up as much when it's taken to the barebones. Of course, you can say this for almost every game, but I've played plenty of unfinished works online, and still enjoyed them somewhat. Perhaps I'm just burnt out on this game, but I really feel that the weapons, enemies, and assets in this game aren't that interesting. As for Quake, that entire game is very barebones itself, looking past the new technology. Not every map is particularly interesting (the entire episode 4 is awful, in my opinion), but the weapons and enemies make up for it. Now's your chance to reassure yourself that I'm a Doom fanboy who only cares about the shotgun, since that, apparently, was my ultimate point.

>> No.3607495

>>3602204
Episodes 2-4 get pretty colorful depending on the level. Any hell set usually has pretty vibrant colors, even if they're reds, purples, blues, etc.

>> No.3607498

>>3607470
>Perhaps I'm just burnt out on this game, but I really feel that the weapons, enemies, and assets in this game aren't that interesting.

I actually sort of agree with that in a way, although not to the same extent as you.
I got burnt on the game too a while ago, but only because I think enemies AI aren't that good (Doom enemies are better in several aspects, like tracking down the player, or shooting at him from odd angles and places), but that was only after 15 years on the game and mastering it.
By your description I feel like you have barely scratched the surface of the game's gameplay possibilities.
However - my love for pure level design is what makes me come back to Duke.

But burning out on it was also the opportunity for me to dive into other Build games and retro FPS, all I can saye is "play Redneck Rampage, its add-on and Rides Again", play the DOS version of Powerslave, and then the Saturn (or PS1) version. Then come back to Duke.

> The official levels of the game, by the way, are so much better than 99% of user level, which are all just so boring, and barely even begin to take advantage of what the engine is capable of.

I agree but not for the same reasons. Most mappers in the DN3D community are more interested in coming up with crazy new effects or crazy new texture/sprite combinaisons and use, therefore exploiting the possibilities of the game as much as possible (the irony being that most of them are all using features that are sourceport only, so they might as well use new code since it already goes beyond the vanilla possibilities).
The issue I have with DN3D usermaps is that most don't care so much about things like level layouts and enemy placement. It's not the main interest and I think most have a low understanding of 'classic' DN3D level design.

>> No.3607998

>>3602107
Good! You see the game for its flaws!
It also has a lot of good stuff - even if weapons are overly gimmicky, enemies design is interesting. Game has a lot of humour in it, really cool artstyle, and amazing level design, and more interactivity than 99% of games done today that aren't trying to be simulations (i.e. Hitman and Deus Ex, really).

THAT is why people waited and hoped for Duke Nukem Forever - they hoped for a game that will have the same good sides of personality, humour, art design, and level design - but will fix all the problems, like a sequel should.

Instead, we got a turd.

>> No.3608025

>>3607998
What exactly makes Duke's guns gimmicky? I assume we're talking about the Shrinker/Expander, Freezethrower, and Tripmines. The first three, despite going against the norm, are very useful even amongst the standard shotgun/machinegun/explosive weapons.

When I think gimmicky I see examples like the Cerebral Bore or the Gravity Gun: fun concept but there's no reason to ever use either over the competing arsenal.

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