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/vr/ - Retro Games

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3374404 No.3374404 [Reply] [Original]

is N64 emulation really that bad?

>> No.3374453

>>3374404
No, I played and finished the zelda games and Conker aeons ago on an emulator and I had zero problems with them. It's just a meme like that "snes is more powerful than the genesis" bullshit people like to repeat around here.

>> No.3374458
File: 65 KB, 396x382, we just had this thread.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3374458

Aside from the staples (Mario 64, Zeldas, Mario Kart, DK/Goldeneye/other Rare stuff), yes.

>> No.3374479

>>3374458
This
Try playing Snowboard Kids 2 and come back at me

>> No.3374487

>>3374404

1.6 will let you play pretty much everything in a "playable" state. Question is if that is enough for you.
The more standard the game (like OoT, Banjo, Mario etc.) the better it will work.
Played through DK with it with just a few graphical glitches.

>> No.3374491

>>3374404
it's way better than your face 2bh OP

>> No.3374494

>>3374453
Dude, you played games that the emulators are specifically designed to play. OoT and other really popular games only work as well as they do because the emulator has loads of game specific cludges.

Games like Pokemon Snap which use video buffer tricks were impossible to emulate about a year ago, and many still run terribly.

>> No.3374503

>>3374487
It's not the same game, it's patched up in a way to make it feel similar. Why'd you think the standard games work better? It's because every time they feel a problem they patch it to make it look like the real thing. This is more like making clone games rather than emulating.

>> No.3374510
File: 1.46 MB, 1920x1080, Project64 2013-04-17 22-23-08-73.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3374510

>>3374404
Yes and no. As >>3374458 says, if you're looking to play the N64 "staples", most of them work with few to no major problems on most emulators (the biggest names here in modern times being Project64 and Mupen64Plus). However, even among that crop of games, the plugins you use can have a big impact on your experience. For instance, on Project64, the default plugin (and what most people will probably use without knowing any better) is Jabo's plugin, while in Mupen64Plus, it's Rice Video. Both plugins have spotty compatibility and are riddled with issues, and should only be used on toasters. Using Glide64 leads to a generally good experience on most games, though it's not without its own issues.

Cont.

>> No.3374521

>>3374503

As I said, the question is if that is enough.
Personally I don't give a monkey's.

>> No.3374527
File: 1.44 MB, 1920x1080, Project64 2013-04-17 23-56-17-76.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3374527

>>3374510
Where it gets hairy is when you step away from the "staples" into more obscure titles, some cult classics, and the more advanced games released late into the N64's lifespan. Some of these games do weird shit or used the hardware in esoteric ways that most plugins do not emulate properly or at all. Some games even used custom microcode that prevents 90% of plugins from playing the games at all due to the way they work (they approximate the hardware calls rather than actually emulating how the hardware works). There exist a few plugins that are accurate enough to bypass these problems, but they tend to be extremely slow.

Adding to the frustration, the emulators themselves all have individual core issues of some kind which prevents them from playing some games properly or at all, so a game might work like shit or not run at all in one, while working just peachy on another even with identical plugins. Emulator-specific games are rare these days, but it is a reality nonetheless.

>> No.3374540

>>3374404
n64 is really that bad

>> No.3374552
File: 1.57 MB, 1920x1080, Project64 2013-04-18 00-28-24-01.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3374552

>>3374527
However, once again, all things considered, you can emulate the majority of games in a playable state with no major glitches pretty comfortably these days. If you're on Windows, use Project64 2.3 (grab a build from EmuCR; Project64 1.6 is very outdated and not recommended). For other OSes, use Mupen64Plus, preferably RetroArch's fork, as it has a lot of improvements and additions over the standalone releases (unless you loathe its interface, then standalone will do). For plugins, use Glide64. It's not perfect, is riddled with hacks, and may not properly emulate some fancy effects in some of the latter games, but if you wants something that just werks, it'll do the job for 80% of the library, particularly the "staples". If you want ultra accuracy, you'll want a variant of Angrylion's plugin, but few people can run it at full speed (though RetroArch's mupen fork promises to change this soon).

>> No.3374556

>>3374453
Play Mario tennis with the new pj64

>> No.3374562

>>3374479
Snowboard Kids 2 barely functioned on the actual hardware though...

>> No.3374616
File: 270 KB, 300x400, 1444672266602.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3374616

its still impossible to emulate Infernal machine

>> No.3374649

N64 emulation accuracy hasn't improved in 15 years. The authors just implement specific hacks and workarounds to get popular games running.

Also, component plugin systems need to fucking die.

>> No.3374651

>>3374616
IIRC there is a special build of Project64 that improves emulation enough to get this game running almost flawlessly, but the necessary change breaks a lot of other games. Pretty crappy to have to have a specific build of a specific emulator to play a single game.

>> No.3374660
File: 120 KB, 646x564, impossible.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3374660

>>3374616

It is?

>> No.3374692

>>3374404
It's not that bad. It's worse.

>> No.3374706

Retroarch's ParaLLEI core is in pre-alpha but it seems like it's made high level N64 emulation finally good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJGwDZ8etLs
Indiana Jones (mild visual issues still)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62lTJJHgQ1U
Body Harvest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZPgOmss-PI
Mario Kart 64 (working framebuffer on the tunnel)

>> No.3374721

>>3374706
Adding onto this, CEN64 now runs at 60 VI/s with audio on multiple games (although the Smash intro is audio lagged)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy8IOxcj8r4

N64 emulation being shit may finally be a thing of the past soon

>> No.3374732

>>3374404
No, They work fine except on shit obscure games.

>> No.3374743

>>3374706
Looks neat. Shame my retroarch just fucking crashes on startup when Vulkan video mode is turned on, I really want to mess with this.

>> No.3374747

>>3374494
All this bullshit could be circumvented it emulators did what they were supposed to do - recreate the architecture without stupid shortcuts.

If modern computers can't do that then it's time to accept that N64 emulation isn't a realistic prospect for now.

>> No.3374748

What makes N64 so hard to emulate, aren't there more complicated systems that are running fine on an emulator? I find this kind of technical thing interesting even though I know next to nothing about it all.

>> No.3374845

>>3374748
It pretty much comes down to the RDP and RSP components. Emulating them properly is not only tricky, but potentially very expensive speed-wise. As such, most emulators and plugins have opted for a high level approach, which is much faster, but carries a ton more issues.

Keep in mind, of course, most of these emulators and plugins were developed in the early 2000's, when most people had Pentium 4 hardware or worse, so everything was made to run on that tier of hardware. Unfortunately, getting everything running accurately today requires an extremely powerful modern PC, although some people are working on solutions that would lessen those requirements considerably.

>> No.3374847

Also, everyone in this thread really ought to read through these pages:

http://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Nintendo_64_emulators

http://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Recommended_N64_Plugins

>> No.3374849

>>3374706
>it's made high level N64 emulation finally good
It's low level emulation, that's what the LLE in ParaLLEI stands for.

>> No.3374913

>>3374747

Funny you say that when Project64 has hardly changed code-wise in over ten years. The only reason it got 'so good' so fast was cheap shortcuts, had it been developed as a legit emulator of the hardware from the start it probably would've would up a lot better. That or something else would have eclipsed it, which again hasn't really happened because PJ64 is 'good enough' for most so why bother?

>> No.3374941

>>3374453
I managed to finish Ocarina of Time on Nemu 64. I didn't manage to install PJ64 at that point for some reason. I played it with a keyboard by the way.

>> No.3375151

Does anyone know a good way to fix the joystick?
I have a USB N64 controller and whenever I try to move with it, it works but doesn't function as it would with a control.

>> No.3375154

>>3375151
*console rather

>> No.3375209

>>3374510
>Rice Video
Keep your Ricegum youtuber shit off this board this is retro games only!!!!!

>> No.3375492

>>3374747
This is more because the N64's hardware is largely undocumented. We have block diagrams of how the components interact, but the real important part, the RCP is very poorly documented. Any approach to cycle accurate emulation has to either look at the decaped RCP and work backwards from the transistor level or look at microcode an how the RCP responds and work out the details.

Most simply stop at finding out what each microcode instruction does and translate that to a computer instruction which leaves any undocumented or not currently added microcode not being emulated, causing errors.

>> No.3375519

>>3375492
Yeah, except that's not actually true. Someone years ago leaked an archive with almost full documentation of the RCP, including a verilog dump and even a crude OpenGL emulator. Much of what constitutes modern N64 emulation comes from that archive, which is one of the scene's dirty little secrets. Very little actual reverse engineering was done, other than perhaps on the RDP in terms of getting it pixel-accurate.

There already exist low-level, extremely accurate RDP and RSP cores, although I believe only Cen64 has anything resembling cycle-accuracy on that front, and even then only on the RSP side.

>> No.3375531

>>3375151
The joystick isn't analog in replacement joysticks or usb controllers. This means that you'll always be pushing full force on the stick with little movement.

>> No.3375551

>>3374479
Just played it with my kid and it was fine. I generally think N64 emulation is a mess though. Many games don't work or only conditionally.

>> No.3375624

>>3374453
>a meme like that "snes is more powerful than the genesis" bullshit people like to repeat around here.
But it is you fucking retard.

Also N64 emulation sucks.

>> No.3375705

If I saved a penny everyday I would be able to buy an ever drive, an n64, and a new in box n64 controller before a perfect n64 emulator was even on the horizon. The main part of that would be that I would have the means and motivation to do so. Some games emulate very well, some are passable, some can work well with tweaks, but overall I doubt there will be an n64 emulator that will work perfectly for every game in the next 2 decades. I fully believe when it comes it'll be from some college computer programming student who was always fascinated with an n64 his grandfather had or something, someone completely separate from anyone working on current emulators. We're just now getting near perfect snes emulation, and it's very demanding on current systems. I can't run it without slowdown, and my system isn't weak. I believe we'll see a lot more progress in the coming years, but compatability and bugs will still be apparent. The fix for one games frame rate will disable another games background layers, proper scaling in one game will cause a flickering image in another.

It'll get better though, but it'll be many years before it's as solid as other emulators for older systems.

>> No.3375821

>>3375151

Mayflash N64 -> USB adapter and an OEM controller

The USB controllers are not actually analog and the D-pad and 'analog' stick are mapped together.

The third party N64 controllers are *almost* usable, but have an incorrect dead zone that makes small movements (aiming the bow, tiptoeing etc) difficult.

Pay out the ass for a good functioning N64 controller (or get incredibly lucky), then take it apart and use lithium grease on the internal mechanism.

>> No.3375843
File: 20 KB, 540x540, 1468886704283.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3375843

>>3374706
> ParaLLEI
>LLE
>Low Level Emulation

Hey guys, High Level Emulation is finally getting good.

>> No.3376413

>>3375519
Huh, I never heard bout that.

>> No.3376479

>>3375519
>RDP and RSP
>>3374845
>RDP and RSP
For the benefit of those of us who don't know what they are?

>> No.3376531

>>3374404
Ill just stick to my actual 64.

>> No.3376713

>>3376479
>For the benefit of those of us who don't know what they are?

N64's GPU (called RCP - Reality Co-Processor) consists of two halves - RSP (Reality Signal Processor) and RDP (Reality Display Processor).

RSP does triangle set up, polygon transform and lighting (T&L). Basically comprised of a scalar unit and a vector unit and crunches lots of matrix maths. It's actually very unusual for GPUs of this era to have something like RSP built in - usually T&L was done on the CPU. What makes it even more unusual is that it's fully programmable with microcode, almost analogous to a modern vertex shader, but makes it particularly tricky for HLE-style emulation.

Then there's RDP which is basically a 3D accelerator that draws the actually pixels that you get on the screen. What makes it a little tricky is that it's very feature packed for the time and that it does certain aspects of 3D rendering in an unusual way. Its bilinear texture filtering for example is triangulated while usual implementations have it as a box. Its edge anti-aliasing method needs coverage values stored in RAM's 9th parity bit - the thing is that typical RAM doesn't have 9 bits, typical RAM is 8 bits. etc etc it has its quirks. It came out before there were any real standards to these things.

>> No.3376717

>>3374404
Nope. Most people forget the actual games usually had the "issues" that they are noticing on the emulator. Even the lesser known games run fine. Bunch of mook idiots that can't figure out how emulators work.

>> No.3376719

>>3374494
lmfao. Snap has been emulator capable and perfect for 10 years, kid. GTFO.

>> No.3376723

>>3374404
Emulation in general is not an authentic experience.

But it's still good enough for most people to play the game and enjoy it.

It's like the difference between watching a shitty 480p stream and going to the movie theater. Sure it'll be better in the movie theater, but you can get the stream off the internet right now and not even have to get dressed.

>> No.3376726

>>3376717
ehhhh ive noticed even on not particularly demanding games like mario golf pj1.7 will just crash randomly. that patched 1.6 some guy made is actually more stable lol

>> No.3376957

>>3376719
No it wasn't.

The 3rd area would crash the game, photographs showed up black, meaning you couldn't select which one to give to Oak, and several special effects wouldn't render properly.

About 2-4 years ago that got fixed though, but you need to use some processor intensive features to do so.

>> No.3377025

>>3376719
I can tell you've never played Pokemon Snap on real hardware. No emulator plugin until the last couple of years could get Pokemon detection to work when pointing the camera at them (should manifest as a red dot in the middle with a corresponding sound effect) and upon taking a picture (should briefly display the Pokemon's name on the bottom).

>> No.3378172

>>3374404
Well don't get me wrong—I play N64 games mostly casually, but people make TAS videos with the emulators it so I guess it's not THAT bad.

>> No.3378179

Just as a question to those recommending N64 emulators in here, didn't one the last releases for Project 64, or maybe it was Mupen, have malware bundled with it?

I'm just curious since I remember reading about it and never following up on investigating it

>> No.3378185

>>3378179
That's true but the malware was removed, although I'd still give it a scan if you download it.

>> No.3378232

>>3378179

Yes, one of those
"If you don't not untick this box this unwanted crap will be installed too. Whoops, you clicked and ticked it! Are you sure to not not remove the option to install the main program only?"
things in the installer.

>> No.3378243

>>3378172
typical european shit poster

>> No.3378251

>>3378185

>>3378232

That was Project 64 right? I would definitely scan it or use the retroarch core instead after something like that. I'm pretty sure there's a Retroarch core anyway.

>> No.3378261

>>3378251

Yes, one of the newer PJ64s.

>> No.3379051

Is there a real difference between the Everdrive and a cheap chinese one, outside 100 bucks?

>> No.3379075

>>3379051
posible fw update

>> No.3379109

>>3378172
Sure, that's why they usually only make TAS videos of N64 games that are "well emulated". Come back when you've seen those Mario Golf 64 TAS videos on youtube.

Speaking of which, how does that game run on CEN64 or paraLLEl, if it runs at all?

>> No.3379119

>>3379051

v3 everdrive (~$200) lets you turn the console off (and keep your save) without having to press reset first.

Apparently the ~$70 ish "ED64" or whatever clone works just as well as the older variants of legit everdrive, and you have to remember to reset or you won't update the save.

>> No.3379194

>>3379075
>>3379119
Any game worth something that won't go on it?

>> No.3380112

>>3374404
Not anymore.

http://gliden64.blogspot.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqZcBcsHjys

>> No.3380153

>>3380112
GLideN64 is a false prophet. Sure, it fixes numerous bugs with HLE, but it still carries a lot of regressions compared to Glide64, and though it has an LLE mode, it is very broken and very slow, and there's no plans to fix it at present. All for $10,000.

Mupen64Plus-libretro's ParaLLEl renderer is much more promising if you ask me, and they're planning on also making a unified HLE renderer that combines the best of all the HLE plugins, including GLideN64.

>> No.3380231
File: 72 KB, 640x467, 5564_front.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3380231

Someone please give me the specifics on why NBA Showtime: NBA on NBC runs so horribly via N64 emulation

NFL Blitz doesn't seem to have the same problems ;-;

>> No.3380280

>>3380231
Who knows.

Most of the popular games only work as well as they do because they have hundreds of game specific patches coded into the emulator.