/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.3359579]

Why doesn't Duke Nukem have as many fanmade mods and maps as Doom? What are some good sites for DN3D maps anyway?

[Anonymous No.3359609]

>>3359579
Doom bathes with street cred.

By the way:

maps:

http://dnr.duke4.net/, even though it's outdated
http://msdn.duke4.net/
http://www.scent-88.com/

There are more but I'll be damned if I can remember the names.

mods:
http://fissile.duke4.net/
http://hrp.duke4.net/
http://www.moddb.com/mods/duke-hard

Duke4.net is a general crossroad to all of Duke3D's content.

[Anonymous No.3359627]

Doom hipsters don’t like sexist Duke

[Anonymous No.3359634]

Because Duke3D only lives of its humor. The actual gameplay is terrible.

[Anonymous No.3359652]

>>3359579
It's not as easy to mod for, there's a greater learning curve. On the flip side, it can do a lot of things with just a bit of work and imagination.

>>3359627
Most people who like Doom tend to like Duke in my experience.

>>3359634
The gameplay is good though.

[Anonymous No.3359696]

>>3359634
>Because Duke3D only lives of its humor

That's what doombabbies actually believe. The humor is fairly scarce compared to modern games and the game wouldn't have nearly had the same success weren't for a gameplay capable of competing with Quake, which in many ways trumps.

[Anonymous No.3359848]

Build engine isn't as simple to use as the Doom engine. Just about anybody can install Doombuilder and create a level in less than 30 minutes. Build is a bit more complex.

>>3359634
(You)

[Anonymous No.3359893]

>>3359634
>the actual gameplay is terrible
2/10

[Anonymous No.3359905]

because doom babbies

[Anonymous No.3359939]

>>3359634
That's silly, the gameplay is great, it has some really phenomenal levels.

Look at Derelict and tell me it isn't a great level.

[Anonymous No.3360089]

would the autistic doom babby janitor kindly just fuck off

[Anonymous No.3360129]

D3D single maps are completely shit. Damn shame, since the levels in the original game are great.

[Anonymous No.3360213]

>>3360089
I don't even think I stirred up as much crap as >>3359634 did, and even elaborated on why I think Duke had great gameplay. Doom dudes can't handle the bant.

[Anonymous No.3360361]

Please stop using offensive terms like "Doomb*bby", thanks.

[Anonymous No.3360372]

>>3360129
Yeah, there's pretty few mapsets.
I heard Duke Hard was supposed to be a collection of maps which were pretty good, but I haven't tried it.

[Anonymous No.3360424]

The Rock Series is pretty good.

[Anonymous No.3360426]

>>3360424
Roch*

[NESfag No.3361474]

Also more complexity and more freedom means that it's more time taking.

In door for shading it's sector based, but in Duke it's surface based, so technically it takes 4x more times to shade a similar surface.

In Doom for a door you just have to put one tag in. In Duke you have to use at least two (door and sound), and that's only for the most simple door because depending on which door it is you may have to place and angle the tag properly, add another tag for speed, another tag for return time, another tag if it's locked, etc

The more you can do, the more you have to learn and the more time it takes to make a map, which is DN3D has less maps than Doom and SW less maps than DN3D.

A good Doom mapper would probably have the time to make 2 Doom maps while a good Duke mapper makes one Duke map.

>>3360129
Few usermaps try to be like the original game, especially these days, but that doesn't mean they can't be good in their own ways.

But if you're looking for a map that's great and that's like the original game, try Insurance Overload. It's the best of its kind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGMezsfr4VQ

[Anonymous No.3361493]

>>3359634
I personally think people overstate its focus on humour. Most of it is just one liners, and pop-culture references. More feels like its a tribute to 80's action movies, rather than being a comedy.

[Anonymous No.3361497]

>>3360424
>Its also worth noting that unlike Doom, you can't mix and match mods in Duke.

I kinda envy the Duke community in this regard, for some reason.

[NESfag No.3361524]

>>3361497
That... depends on what kind of mods you want to mix. You can't mix two different gameplay or weapon mods, but technically speaking you could very well mix a weapons mod with an enemies mod with a music mod with an art mod.

>>3361493
Yes, if you're playing v1.3, the first three episodes, there really isn't that much humour. It's really not omni-present, it's just the one liners and a reference here and there.

Atomic Edition is where they went full parody with most levels being a parody of something and having several jokes/references in each level.

Atomic Edition has not only re-shaped the vision people had of DN3D, but also of the character and the entire franchise.

[Anonymous No.3361969]

>>3361524
I have mixed feelings about Atomic Edition because of that.

It also has very mixed quality of maps.
I really hate the convenience store, Duke Burger and Babe Land, but I fucking love the postal office, nuclear powerplant and the derelict ship, the final boss map is great also.

While I appreciate the added humor to some degree, and I love Duke Caribbean (great level set and has an amazing, fun and cheerful atmosphere), I kind wish there'd be more stuff like L.A Meltdown, Lunar Apocalypse and Shrapnel City

[NESfag No.3361991]

>>3361969
Caribbean is the greatest thing ever done for DN3D, all things considered.

There isn't much like Lunar Apocalypse, even in terms of usermaps. That episode is generally considered the worst and generic. I think it's underrated personally, the fact that it's not rooted in realism made them go wild with layouts, architecture and effects. For instance they went CRAZY with slopes.

Played Duke It Out in DC?

[Anonymous No.3362038]

doom has more need for mods than build engine games.

[Anonymous No.3362051]

>>3361991
Yeah, it felt pretty mediocre if I'm going to be perfectly honest.

I liked the submarine map, but everything else felt kind of like a less good Shrapnel City

[Anonymous No.3362190]

>>3361991
Duke it Out in DC is pretty bad compared to Caribbean.

[Anonymous No.3362213]

>>3362190
It's 'passable' but it just makes me think "I could be playing any of the other episodes instead."

At least it's not Nuclear Winter.

[NESfag No.3362314]

Gearbox's new episode, when? I'm actually intrigued about it.

[Anonymous No.3362339]

>>3362314
No matter how TerminX said he was okay and Gearbox is run by supposed saints and all, I still won't buy that bazinga ridden crap, even though this means I won't get to play the outsourced maps which are apparently good.

I'm much more looking forward to Bombshell's build game.

[Anonymous No.3362408]

>>3362314
I have zero confidence in Gearbox at all.
I genuinely hope they crash and burn to sell off the IP to someone else.

[Anonymous No.3362870]

>>3360424
I played Roch, Red and few other maps and they are mediocre at best and shit at worst if that's the best DN3D community has to offer then it's veteran mappers are on the same tier as Doom beginners.

[Anonymous No.3362871]

>>3362314
>Gearbox
>anything but absolute shit
kill yourself, namecuck

[NESfag No.3363753]

>>3362870
Doom and DN3D usermaps have completely different center of interests.

I supposed due to Doom's limits, Doom mappers are more interested in map layouts and pure gameplay. On the other hand, due to the amount of freedom DN3D offers, people are more interested in what they can come up with when only using the original game assets and effects. The maps you mentioned are very creative because they used never seen been effects by using or combining the base game's effects in creative ways, and also used textures in smart ways to come up with new visuals. If you're creative, you can create about any kind of setting with DN3D's base texture sets, while in Doom people will use exterior assets.

The problem with this system is that, while it's easy to appreciate creative layout and gameplay, you need to know how DN3D really works to fully appreciate a map like It Lives.

This being said, I don't know if these are the bests. I'm more about a layout and gameplay guy myself and I'd rather play a map like Insurance Overload or ACB Studios, or an episode like Daikarin, than Roch or Red.

>>3362408
>>3362339
Oh I don't intend to buy it nor do I support Gearbox in any way. I'm just very intrigued, word I said, about what will come out of it. Like Megaton did, it could reshape the DN3D community in a way or another.
TerminX didn't say Gearbox was run by saints, he said they weren't the devil. But honestly if you read between the lines it's kind of obvious he said that to compensate for what he said in the past, and which got deleted, because as of now there is a very small chance they could work together.

[Anonymous No.3363761]

>>3363753
Doom's base gameplay is a lot more...organised than Duke's. It's enemy AI and their general behaviour is a lot more robust than Duke. That's why slaughter maps work in Doom and don't in Duke (Every attempt has ALWAYS been fucking awful, Duke enemies just have zero awareness of each other at all times)

Duke's enemy AI I realized a while back was designed to be flashy and LOOK cool, even if they do have little practical value in gameplay. The liztroops have the most detailed AI by far, in general each enemy has at least one cool looking ability or gimmick to them. Doom's enemy AI is a lot more plain - they move towards the player and attack basically. Duke's AI has them do shit like dynamically fly up and down, moving backwards to gain some distance to the player, crouching or even jumping towards them .etc it's a lot cooler but it falls apart since they can't navigate levels for shit and they die very quickly.

You can do a lot more with Doom's enemies than you can Duke's enemy set, but in return Duke is more cinematic and really should be used sparingly rather than throwing a whole bunch of them together.

[NESfag No.3363772]

Also back to OP's question, another reason why Doom has more maps than Duke is because Doomworld is still there, Dukeworld died 15 years ago. I heard it took a big toll on the game and many people just left.

>>3363761
Yes, I really enjoy Doom enemy AI. They really push the action and a mistake can really fuck you up.

I still believe you can do a lot more with DN3D's enemies than what has been done, but the problem is that pretty much nobody has ever been interested in digging into it. At best, enemy placement in DN3D usermaps is "classic good". At worst it's completely random or the idea of challenge is to throw a thousand enemies in a cramped environment. Most Duke mappers don't install a tight and clean "environment = gameplay" relation when creating a map, while I see many Doom maps which have this or that structure built just so they can put this or that enemy there. But then again, Doom mapping being faster, it helps in that regard. You can quickly delete or add something that serves gameplay.

[Anonymous No.3364085]

>>3363772
The other problem is that Duke is very squishy compared to Doom guy; armour in Duke is a joke which protects a random amount of damage every hit (apparently between 20%-50% each hit) Doom guy's armour always protects a specific amount which makes it much more reliable. if Duke's armour was made to protect a static amount, even say just 30% it would make it more useful in general than a random amount.

>thousands of enemies
Yeah I hate this a thousand times. Most of the time the enemies kill each other by accident; there's no infighting so enemies will just blow each other to pieces. Not to mention Duke's explosives do such a big amount of damage and have a relatively huge radius that 'slaughter' battles consists of either shooting a couple of RPGs or having to slog it out with one of the bullet weapons which takes ages.

[Anonymous No.3364109]

Any more horror maps aside from It Lives and Red?

[Anonymous No.3364110]

>>3359634
Duke3D is a good game, but it needed a more powerful machine than Doom, and by the time it came out everyone was getting hyped about Quake. So it didn't get as much attention as it could have.

[NESfag No.3364117]

>>3364109
Rural Nightmare
Dark Place series

There is a map based on The Thing, called The Thing, but it has no enemies. It's just wandering around pressing switches.

>>3364110
Not really, both Quake and DN3D each got as much "attention". Let's not forget that DN3D came out 6 months before Quake and that it demanded lower specs.

[Anonymous No.3364136]

Duke is great, and arguably it's original singleplayer campaign can be considered better than Doom's.

My guess is that since Duke is more of a "character", making custom stuff for it is difficult without breaking him. And i guess Doom's engine is more accesible.

[Anonymous No.3364195]

>>3363761
>Duke enemies just have zero awareness of each other at all times
That sounds like it's fucking hilarious to look at though.

I mean, one of the best parts about Doom is when the infighting starts
>Whoops that imp hit that chaingunner who retaliated and the entire room turned into a batshit melee, stand back and watch them bicker and brawl

[Anonymous No.3364198]

>>3364136
Making a bunch of city maps and putting aliens in it won't break Duke anymore than putting Doomguy in yet another UAC base.

[Anonymous No.3364525]

Favorite map from each episode, GO;

L.A Meltdown - Hollywood Holocaust
Lunar Apocalypse - Lunar Reactor
Shrapnel City - Freeway
The Birth - Derelict

[Anonymous No.3364572]

>>3363753
>>3363761
>>3363772
>>3364085
>>3364195

If you are talking about the gameplay of the community maps, those have been pretty shit and badly executed overall.

To give an example, it is not uncommon for mappers to throw an imp in the mid of nowhere with nothing to give cover to it. Sometimes there are areas with enemies in towers or upper corridors trying hit you from there, but there is nothing to nag you to distract you from those enemies. Or even throw you into a corridor and fill that up with enemies and call that "awesome gameplay". BTSX is glorified for its looks, but its gameplay is pretty shit in the same way of the "classics" the community venerate so much (alien vendetta, hell revealed, memento mori, the list goes on), there is a circlejerk that will try to defend it though (fan crowd).

They criticize slaughter maps, but they create maps and slap monsters at random places and call it a day. At least killing hundreds of monsters at once has some fun for the sake of it.

[Anonymous No.3364591]

>>3364572
>At least killing hundreds of monsters at once has some fun for the sake of it.
I think it's a chore because that shit never ends and you're not really given the best weapons to deal with that shit.

I never cared much for Hell Revealed or Alien Vendetta for that matter, or Scythe 2

[Anonymous No.3364724]

Why is Duke Nukem 3D's music so good?

[Anonymous No.3364782]

>>3364724
Lunar Reactor is still the best track.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhAjmKkrADM

[Anonymous No.3365009]

>>3364782
I love that shit.

[Anonymous No.3365036]

>>3364782
Too bad it was used in the worst episode.

[Anonymous No.3365053]

>>3365036
You shut your whore mouth.

[Anonymous No.3365130]

>>3365053
Lunar Apocalypse seems like a Duke prototype or something I mean lmao one of the reasons why DN3D was popular is because it was set in a city instead of some space base if the whole game was like Lunar Apocalypse it would be forgotten in a week. Fuck E2.

[Anonymous No.3365252]

>>3365036
The worst levels in Duke 3d are still better than most shooters. Even the Lunar episode.

[Anonymous No.3365259]

>>3365036
The Birth is worse for having such wildly varying quality, it has a few of the best maps in the game but also some of the worst.

Lunar Apocalypse never has a truly terrible map, at most Occupied Territory is a bitch on pistol start because three battlelords and less ammo to work with, but it's not a bad map.

I love the atmosphere and environments in Lunar Apocalypse

[Anonymous No.3365274]

Because the engine's harder to work with, and at this point, doesn't really have any major capabilities that doom doesn't.

It's a shame I guess, but as Duke would say, "Shit Happens".

[Anonymous No.3365317]

>>3365274
Duke is capable of a lot more stuff than Zdoom is (at least I'm assuming until that new scripting language or whatever is done)

Take a look at mods like the AMC TC or WGR2 for one example. The biggest 'issue' is that you get a TC release every few years now compared to Doom's number, but Eduke32 is capable of so much more than Zdoom. Its biggest flaw is that decorate has built in shit for stuff like friendly AI and whatever that Duke doesn't, but Eduke's con code gives you a massive amount of control over the entire game.

[Anonymous No.3365356]

>>3365274
>and at this point, doesn't really have any major capabilities that doom doesn't.

I've seen the "how do I make ceilings on outside buildings without screwing up the sky" question about a hundred times in Doom threads, when it's the simplest thing in Build. Please know what you're talking about.

[Anonymous No.3365373]

>>3365274
Can you stack sectors in Doom yet? I don't follow the various versions of Doom builder.

[Anonymous No.3365404]

>>3365373
GZDoom can make 3D objects so you can make rooms over rooms and ledges and what not.

It's not the most efficient renderer, because Grafh Zaahl is a retard, but it works well enough, just use it sparingly and don't go nuts with it.

[Anonymous No.3365448]

>>3365404
>3D objects

So it's Doom except it's Quake.

I assume different sectors cannot occupy the same 3D space without the engine going nuts or being a bitch to render. This gives Build some edge for sector based 3D maps, it's in the tech and always has been.

[Anonymous No.3365463]

I used to make maps and mods until around the time Eduke was released. I was making some in depth maps but suddenly everyone was playing Eduke and the feedback posted was "what are you trying to go for retro?" as if that was a bad thing. Some of my favorite mods not mentioned before in the thread were;
Platoon
Sota (Shadows of the acropolis)
MiB (Men in black)
An AVP based mod (I forgot the name)

There was some editor which worked for duke 3d, dark forces and one other game but I forgot the name. Importing graphics from shadow warrior or blood also worked. I remember the enemies turned in a mirrored direction from duke 3d so it looked pretty odd to see them turn. I also changed the code to make a golden gun which killed the enemies in one hit. Furthering the power values even more sent them flying.

[Anonymous No.3365481]

>>3365448
Well I guess?

I mean two sectors can't occupy the same space, but you can make a room over a room and make it look seamless.

It can do better underwater though.

[Anonymous No.3365494]

>>3365481
>It can do better underwater though.

If you mean transparent water without resorting to tricks eduke32 got that figured out a long time ago.

And if we talk about true room over room then eduke32 took care of that as well by writing a new renderer, which however might just as well be in the condition GZDoom's one is.

[Anonymous No.3365527]

>>3365463
>suddenly everyone was playing Eduke and the feedback posted was "what are you trying to go for retro?"

I take it you're referring to the hardware rendering mode basically? yeah it's always looked bad compared to the original, that's still present somewhat just with the polymer renderer now. Some of the contributors to the HRP accuse people who prefer classic as being luddites and can't understand that the HRP looks fucking terrible - it looks worse than Unity shit.

basically any person with taste prefers classic mode so don't feel too bad about ignoring the other guys.

>>3365494
TROR works in classic mode as well, but not as robustly as Polymer's implementation (it's still good enough to use effectively in 99% of circumstances so long as you don't try to do weird shapes and shit)

[Anonymous No.3365559]

>>3365527
>TROR works in classic mode as well

No it doesn't? Unless the implementation was recent, in which case isn't that gonna tank performance? What about Polymost?

[Anonymous No.3365580]

>>3365527
>Some of the contributors to the HRP accuse people who prefer classic as being luddites and can't understand that the HRP looks fucking terrible
But the HRP models are fucking atrocious, they look TERRIBLE in the DN3D gameworld, and the HD textures look out of place as shit on the relatively simple geometry and architecture of the levels.

I think what I hate the most about the HRP models is that the animations all look slow and chunky and floaty

[Anonymous No.3366000]

>>3364782
I love the final level track in The Birth, Departure

[Anonymous No.3366035]

>>3359579
Because Duke Nukem wasn't as popular as Doom, and therefore, less people were making mods. I mean, we're talking about Doom, the game that at one point had been installed on more computers than Microsoft fucking Windows was.

[Anonymous No.3366097]

>>3359579

why it isn't in steam anymore?

[Anonymous No.3366279]

>>3366097
Because Gearbox sucks worse than 3D Realms.

[NESfag No.3366506]

>>3366035
>the game that at one point had been installed on more computers than Microsoft fucking Windows was.

Oh boy, how surprising considering the game got released barely a year after windows 3.1 !

In 1998 tons of people were still using DOS.

>>3366097
The rights changed to Gearbox, so they took down every version, and instead of re-working the rights of those, have decided to make their own version of the game instead because they'd rather have 100% of the money for themselves rather than sharing a small percentage even if it means earning more.

>>3365463
What maps and mods did the make?
The community gradually took a one dimensional turn in the middle of the years 2000's, that was all about insane amount of detailing, and bullshit things like "making it compete with modern games".
This has calmed down nowadays though.

[Anonymous No.3366572]

>>3365559
Yes it does. I can most enthustiastically tell you that TROR works in classic mode and it works well - we might be talking about different things, you might be thinking of SoS or something but TROR is the term used by helixhorned, the guy who coded it in, for being able to have true room over rooms in Duke. Like I said it's not perfect in classic mode with overly ambitious shit, but for the most part you can have levels like this:

https://youtu.be/8xuDKx2IWBo?t=20m00s

TROR doesn't work in Polymost though, you are right there. It works perfectly in Polymer and in the majority of cases in classic mode.

>>3365580
Yeah, that's one of my problems with it. I just think there's a lot of people in the community with horrible artistic sense or style (they have the technical skills to make stuff at least)

[Anonymous No.3366925]

>>3359634

[Anonymous No.3366960]

>>3366925
No, he's not.

[Anonymous No.3367117]

>>3364572
What are examples of good doom maps to you?

[Anonymous No.3367493]

>>3366925
Nice samefag.

[Anonymous No.3367576]

I think Doom is the better game overall but Duke Nukem's level design was a revelation when I first player. The levels were actual places which made playing it so enjoyable.

[Anonymous No.3367587]

>>3359939
I think Hotel Hell is best in game

[Anonymous No.3367818]

>>3367576
I'd say Blood and Duke are better shooters than Doom, but I can jump into Doom at any time and enjoy the levels. Blood and Duke (and Shadow Warrior I guess) levels are much more complex and takes a bit more effort to play them I think.

[Anonymous No.3367931]

>>3367818
Yeah, I definitely feel that Blood is a game you kind of have to commit yourself a bit to play, Doom is easier to just drop into.

Duke kind of falls somewhere inbetween.

[Anonymous No.3368121]

>>3359634
Someone here doesn't like to abuse explosions

[Anonymous No.3368836]

>>3364572
Quite a big claim to say all popular mapsets for Doom "slap monsters at random places and call it a day."

[NESfag No.3369035]

>>3363753
>I'd rather play a map like Insurance Overload or ACB Studios, or an episode like Daikarin

More good classic style maps:
Sewers & Strippers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcH3dAx3egQ

FBSP002
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZouS7ZO59wA

FBSP003
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJUJKjLFE1Q

Back Alley
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAsFsQnGY4c

Legal Joint (part of Duke Hard episode)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mabGonT2hc

Meatball Sub' Making (part of Metropolitan Mayhem episode)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtufvxTcfUU

Foul Odour:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlQ-XQf5W0o

[Anonymous No.3369051]

I've never played Duke, what's a good way to experience vanilla gameplay? Can eduke32 be configured for faithfulness or is it more like Zdoom?
It always bothets me with these games that you never know if freelook, jumping etc. was part of the original or added in engines. /autism

[Anonymous No.3369145]

>>3369051
Duke3D was basically Quake (except you could actually look around without having to press any buttons) as far as controls went, so you'll be fine. EDuke32 can be set in any way the original game ran.

[Anonymous No.3369146]

>>3369051
Eduke32 is extremely close to vanilla, mouselook is slightly better than original game and of course weapon switching via mouse wheel is possible but it's otherwise the same as the original. You can even run it in a tiny resolution if you so desire.

[NESfag No.3369185]

>>3369051
Make sure to play in classic 8-bit video mode and it will be just like the original game. Yes you could jump in the original, you could crouch, fly, swim, look around with the mouse, set controls to anything you like ,etc

You can disable widescreen support in EDuke32 if you desire.

By default the original game could only go as far as a resolution as 800*600, but back then a simple patch existed to allow greater resolutions. However, in Build games, the difference between 800*600 and above is negligeable.

You can also set controls to the default ones but I see no reason to do so. Back in the days, a LOT of player used joystick+keyboard (arrow keys) to play DN3D which is extremely similar to modern WASD+Mouse.
The reason they used that config was because, when you move forward/backward while strafing at the same time, you get a 40% speedboost, like in many oldschool FPS, but in DN3D when you use a joystick, you get that speed boost even if you're not strafing.

Of course for a true classic experience you could play it in DOSbox, find the GOG version for instance, but EDuke32 is very close to classic. The only thing you can't get in EDuke32 are behaviours of the original 1.3 version of the game, as instead it only supports 1.5 even if you're running the 1.3 version. So if you want to play 1.3 with its original behaviours you'll have to play in DOSbox.

Main difference between original 1.3 and 1.5 (Atomic Edition):
- 1.5 has an extra episode, The Birth, with a new weapon, new enemies, etc but which only appear in that new episode
- in 1.3 you can use both mighty boots kicks at the same time
- in 1.3 Slimers can't be killed with the boot kick. This can make a huge difference in some situations, I actually like it better that way because it makes the Slimer an actual enemy

[Anonymous No.3369280]

>>3369051
You could freelook, jump and crouch in the original .exe

Which still runs great on Windows 7 by the way, I think that's funny.

>>3369145
Quake had freelook I'm pretty sure

[Anonymous No.3369303]

>>3369185
Pig-cops also had double health in V1.3D if you gave them a spritepal of 13/14...they briefly re-added this in Eduke but took it out again for obvious reasons. There were some v1.3D maps that took advantage of this (one was called Army base or some shit)

[NESfag No.3369364]

>>3369303
Yes, I didn't mention it because pigcops with custom palettes don't appear in the original game.

Once I suggested to the EDuke32 devs to add options in the menu, to add the possibility to revert back the kick, slimer and custom palette pigcops to their original 1.3 behaviour. The answer was no, because for them those are things that got "fixed" in the next versions and it's like bringing back a glitch; and also that their idea of a sourceport isn't to do like zdoom and have a zillion different settings in the menu.

Personally I don't think it's fair to call these behaviours glitches or omissions, I have a hard time to believe they are that, even the double kick; plus a single option called "1.3 behaviours: yes/no" would be enough, but whatever.
Kind of a much you have to use DOSbox to play 1.3. Although I think that the sourcecode release of the game was for 1.5, which might make it somewhat harder to port 1.3 behaviours like that faithfully.

This being said I was one of the loud voices begging them to take back the custom palette pigcops behaviours, because it didn't fit in modern maps; but I still believe it would be nice to have a triggerable option.

If Blood ever gets a sourceport I kind of hope it would be possible to switch different version behaviours, since there are so many to play with, though I'm sure that's asking for too much.

[Anonymous No.3369375]

>>3359634
>yfw he's right
Weapons like the shrinker and freeze gun are not effective to use
The build engine is about as stable as a house of cards causing all sorts of nonsense
Lunar Apocalypse is boring and quite a few levels from other chapters are dull as well.
I feel like I could ramble for hours
Duke 3D isn't awful but compared to Doom its no contest

[Anonymous No.3369391]

>>3369375
>Weapons like the shrinker and freeze gun are not effective to use
The shrinker is useful as fuck, one ray on a fat commander and he's ready to be pulp under your boot, it's near instakill, I fucking love the shrinker.

The freezer is a bit trickier to use but it can deflect and bounce around corners, the trick is to not use it against enemies who shoot at you with guns.

I found the freezer was great against the Alien Protector Drones, since they're immune to the shrinker, and you'll just blast them until they stop moving, swap to the pistol and BANG they're scattered all over.

>The build engine is about as stable as a house of cards causing all sorts of nonsense
I'll give you that, it's held together with chewed gum, but that doesn't matter as much because the style and gameplay is so good.

>Lunar Apocalypse is boring and quite a few levels from other chapters are dull as well.
I like a lot of Lunar Apocalypse, the worst levels are in The Birth, but even then, The Birth has a few of the best levels in the game.

Duke It Out in D.C was way more dull than any of the original episodes, and only Nuclear Winter was outright awful.

>I feel like I could ramble for hours
Please do.

[NESfag No.3369456]

>>3369375
You must be kidding. The shrinker is OP as fuck, as it can kill about any enemy in one shot. It even works against mini-Blord when used at the right angle.
The freezer is super useful as well, especially when there are many enemies against you and in tight environments, because for one a missed shot might bounce back and hit someone anyway, and two chances are a frozen enemy might get shattered by a stray enemy bullet. Use the pistol as a combo for max effectiveness and shatter enemies from a distance. Against most enemies it's about the fastest to kill weapon if you exclude the explosive ones.

Besides you clearly have never played the game in Damn I'm Good. On that difficulty those 2 weapons are your BEST FRIENDS, because an enemy killed with those will not respawn. It's useful to the point that I'd save freezer ammo to the max, weaken enemies with other weapons, count the number of bullets, and the last hit will be with the freezer so that I only use one ammo for it and shatter the enemy anyway.

>The build engine is about as stable as a house of cards causing all sorts of nonsense
Have you been playing Megaton? Also which Build engine? Almost every Build game is pretty much a different engine, as only a common base is shared for all games, from which each dev added things to in order to make everything that makes "an engine". Which makes it kind of hard to make claims on "the" Build engine under such an angle. Read this for an easily understandable explanation on how Build works
http://fabiensanglard.net/duke3d/index.php

[NESfag No.3369467]

>>3369375
>>3369456

Also that depends on your point of comparison. If you compare it to Doom or Quake, then yes, I agree. But obviously, the more complicated it is, the harder it will be to keep it glitch free. The development of Build started before Doom came out. Silverman probably could have released something like Doom, or just like Doom but with only a little more, which would have been a lot easier to keep glitch free, but instead he kept adding stuff to make it more and more awesome.
Build games can have a LOT, LOT more than Doom, even the most simple ones like Powerslave.
In comparison Doom and Quake are extremely barebones, as simple as they could have it to make a game, there is barely any feature or effect to use. Just compare something as simple as a door, see what you can do with doors in Doom or Quake, then look at what you can do in DN3D. To phrase you, there is no contest.
Of course Doom, and Quake, are more stable, because there is literaly nothing to make them glitch.

>Lunar Apocalypse is boring and quite a few levels from other chapters are dull as well.
As for that, well like I said most people say it's the weakest episode. Perhaps I think it has tighter gameplay than ep3 and its random enemey placement. Also the fact that Lunar Apocalypse isn't rooted in realistic environments, made them go WILD with level design as a result. Lunar Apocalypse has the SICKEST effects, the SICKESTS use of slopes (which at the time, were quite THE thing) and some of the sickests layouts involving tons of Sector over Sector making for some unique Y axis gameplay for early 1996. Some of these levels like Fusion Station have more verticality than most Quake levels, which came out 6 months later with a true 3D engine.

[Anonymous No.3370439]

Bump

[Anonymous No.3372090]

>>3364572
You sound like a contrarian hipster.

[Anonymous No.3372174]

Well, now that you brought it up, /vr/ should make Duke3D maps

[Anonymous No.3372253]

>>3372174
>tfw my maps are unfinished gimmicky concept clusterfucks or copies of areas in other games

Sometimes I'll have to make a doom like map with only emphasis on gameplay/environment/nicely placed enemies and post it here. Older maps were pretty good at that. Maybe we can even start our own "WADs" (it's simple enough to do with EDuke32, else you would have to drop too many files on the main dir and stuff) like the doom peep do.

[Anonymous No.3373571]

>>3367493
>>3366960

[NESfag No.3373747]

>>3372174
Well I'm not the only one in this thread who already has.

Go on then, I'll catch up if something substantial is on the track. Don't hesitate to ask if you have any mapping/modding question.

Use Mapster32. These sites should help:
http://infosuite.duke4.net/
http://wiki.eduke32.com/wiki/Level_editing

[Anonymous No.3373958]

>>3372090
>>3364591
>>3367117
>>3368836
Not contrarian, play E1M8b. I mean PLAY it, not watch it because then you would focus on looks, and the community delivers enough good looking maps already, those just happen to have shitty gameplay because the mappers does not give a shit about the game anymore, or think that replicating IWADs gameplay is good enough, it is not.

ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pc/games/idgames/levels/doom/Ports/d-f/e1m8b.zip

[NESfag No.3374104]

>>3373958
>E1M8b

I don't know. Some enemy design choices seem prettty random; and an area can very easily get overwhelmed if you're somewhere else, leading in a whole mess that will end up with in fighting.

[Anonymous No.3374126]

>>3373958
It was cool to see Romero making a map after all these years, but it was just ok.

I'd rather see him make a completely new Ep1 replacement from scratch with more consistency.

[Anonymous No.3374129]

>>3373958
Regarding community content, how would you rate Double Impact? I think that's a very good Doom episode personally.

[Anonymous No.3374134]

>>3369375
Lol shrinker is the most OP weapon in the game u retarded doom babby

[Anonymous No.3374150]

>>3374134
MOODS

[Anonymous No.3374249]

I played E1M8b when it came out, and to be perfectly honest with you, I enjoyed the gameplay in the wads you claim to be shit far more than the gameplay E1M8b.

[Anonymous No.3374253]

>>3373958
I played E1M8b when it came out, and to be perfectly honest with you, I enjoyed the gameplay in the wads you claim to be shit far more than the gameplay E1M8b.

[Anonymous No.3374343]

>>3373958
Nihility is way better, and it isn't even finished.

[Anonymous No.3374409]

Besides slopes, what exactly can the Build engine do that the Doom engine can't?

[NESfag No.3374431]

>>3374409
This all depends what you're comparing, what games you're talking about, but if we're talking about base stuff:

- textured automap
- transparency, with different levels. That includes sprites, maskwalls.
- shading per surfrace, rather than per texture
- sprite use for texturing or even structures
- a lot more freedom with texturing: use anything you want on any surface, even sprites as textures or vice versa, stretch or shrink texture
- support for multiple palettes

I'm probably forgetting a lot. Others will help.

Then comes all the per-game effects, for instance all sorts of crazy sector or lighting effects, developed by each game devs, but Build made them possible to happen.

Now of course, you can go down the road and say "Doom can do most of these nowadays", and then we could start comparing with what Build can do nowadays, but that's an entirely different debate.

[NESfag No.3374435]

>>3374409
This all depends what you're comparing, what games you're talking about, but if we're talking about base stuff:

- textured automap
- transparency, with different levels. That includes sprites, maskwalls.
- shading per surface, rather than per sector
- sprite use for texturing or even structures
- a lot more freedom with texturing: use anything you want on any surface, even sprites as textures or vice versa, stretch or shrink texture
- support for multiple palettes

I'm probably forgetting a lot. Others will help.

Then comes all the per-game effects, for instance all sorts of crazy sector or lighting effects, developed by each game's devs, but Build made that possible to happen.

Now of course, you can go down the road and say "Doom can do most of these nowadays", and then we could start comparing with what Build can do nowadays, but that's an entirely different debate.

[NESfag No.3374457]

>>3374435
Also

- voxel support (before DN3D was released)
- ability to have as many sectors as you want on the same plane, as long as you don't see several of them at once. This allows for rooms to be virtually on on top of each others (different floors etc) or even on the exact same X+Y+Z place

[Anonymous No.3374575]

>>3374457
>voxel support
Still has Doom beat on that, GZDoom literally renders EVERY individual voxel as a separate 1x1x1 3D model, I can't imagine a less efficient method, I hate Grafh so much sometimes.

[Anonymous No.3374645]

>>3374575
To this day I still don't understand why he thought limiting GZdoom to shader model 3 cards was a good idea. Apart from the odd autist a lot of people play these games because they're still running toasters.

[Anonymous No.3374650]

>>3374435
As far as code stuff goes, even the basic CON code that the original game came with allowed you to do a LOT of shit. You still had to have some work arounds like in Doom but you could code really dynamic reactive AI with just the base game's features. The only thing Doom AI has over Duke's is the ability to infight and better pathfinding.

Eduke on the other hand gives you access to nearly everything. You have to code it yourself but that means you can get it to do what you want. You could completely scrap the game's weapon system and code your own one if you so choose.

[NESfag No.3374778]

>>3374650
>As far as code stuff goes, even the basic CON code that the original game came with allowed you to do a LOT of shit.

That's the thing, in my comparison I've tried to only Doom to base Build stuff, things that are shared among every Build game (or almost, Powerslave and Tekwar don't have a textured automap and Tekwar can't handle slopes beacuse they're using an older version of the engine).

This is why the comparison is hard because each main Build game is vastly different while sharing that common base I'm talking about.
Of course if you want to start comparing games, you could have a look at the possibilities DN3D, Blood and Shadow Warrior offer, and compare that to Strife and Hexen (which, I think, are the most advanced Doom engine games). The list of "what more can it do" would then be much longer, and even then you wouldn't have touched all the possibilities of all Build games since even Powerslave can do (a few) things which can't be done in DN3D/Blood/SW.

I don't know enough about Doom sourceports to compare them to EDuke32 though. I don't have truely in depth knowledge of EDuke32 possibilities either for that matter.

[NESfag No.3374780]

>>3374650
>As far as code stuff goes, even the basic CON code that the original game came with allowed you to do a LOT of shit.

That's the thing, in my comparison I've tried to only compare Doom to base Build stuff, things that are shared among every Build game (or almost, Powerslave and Tekwar don't have a textured automap and Tekwar can't handle slopes beacuse they're using an older version of the engine).

This is why the comparison is hard because each main Build game is vastly different while sharing that common base I'm talking about.
Of course if you want to start comparing games, you could have a look at the possibilities DN3D, Blood and Shadow Warrior offer, and compare that to Strife and Hexen (which, I think, are the most advanced Doom engine games). The list of "what more can it do" would then be much longer, and even then you wouldn't have touched all the possibilities of all Build games since even Powerslave can do (a few) things which can't be done in DN3D/Blood/SW.

I don't know enough about Doom sourceports to compare them to EDuke32 though. I don't have truely in depth knowledge of EDuke32 possibilities either for that matter.

[Anonymous No.3374864]

>>3374780
That's a fair point but CON editing doesn't require external programs like Dehacked does so I always considered it part of the package when comparing base Duke modding to Doom's (but of course we can agree to disagree here)

That reminds me actually; vanilla Duke can also support new custom art compared to Doom where I'm 99% sure you had to replace existing artwork first.

Also we completely forgot ambient sounds as well as being able to use almost any ingame sound inside Build. IMO this is probably the biggest bonus and part of why I preferred Duke; apart from monsters and crushers Doom is completely silent. Having sounds adds such a massive amount to a level's ambience.

[Anonymous No.3375826]

>>3374864
>Doom where I'm 99% sure you had to replace existing artwork first.

Textures, Patches and Flats had no limit in vanilla doom. There is a limit to how many can be animated, though.

[Anonymous No.3375880]

>>3375826
That's pretty cool - if it's unlimited than that's one thing it does have over Duke since it had a limited number of tiles in the base game.

[NESfag No.3375917]

>>3374864
Yeah CON editing is part of the base DN3D package.

But I was talking about base Build stuff, the stuff that is shared among every Build game.

Each Build game shares the same common base and then each dev programs their own part and all of it together creates everything that makes an engine.

DN3D isn't base Build, it's base Build plus what the DN3D devs added to it. That's why I was only talking about base stuff, which CON editing isn't part of as that's a DN3D thing.

Of course you can compare what Build games can do with what Doom games can do, I wasn't getting into that because then the list is very, very long; and I'm not sure it's fair to say "Build has CON coding and Room over Room" when both things appear in different games. (well actually, pretty sure Redneck Rampage Rides Again has both, but you get my point).

Even just the base Build that is shared among every Build game can offer more than Doom in many aspects.

as for freedom of sound use, I'm pretty sure it's there because each dev wanted it.
I'm saying this because I know of one Build game in which there is little freedom for sound use: sounds work like in Doom, they come with each effect (doors, elevators etc) and can't be changed, and that game only has 2 ambient sounds one of which also comes with a specific effect. Then again I'm talking about a game which came with no modding/mapping support, but for me it shows that sound use isn't part of the base Build package, unless the devs of that game decided to change it to make their mapping faster.

[Anonymous No.3375942]

>>3365130
i think you're actually right about that

i think a lot of the maps in lameduke were early versions of lunar apocalypse maps

[NESfag No.3375981]

>>3375942
I've seen just as much stuff from Lameduke that was early versions of other episodes maps as well.

However the ep2 Lameduke ones were the ones which changed the least between Lameduke and release.

[Anonymous No.3376204]

>>3375826
>Textures, Patches and Flats had no limit in vanilla doom

I don't really know what a patch is, but does this mean a map specifically looks for each texture with a specific filename which remains even when compiled? If not I can't really see how it could be unlimited.

>>3375880
C'mon, 65535 individual tiles are more than you would ever need. Or did vanilla Duke3D support less? I don't think so.

[Anonymous No.3376512]

>>3376204
http://zdoom.org/wiki/Patch

[Anonymous No.3376985]

>>3376204
>65535
Yeah it's nowhere near that high - I think the limit now is 128 art tiles so about 32640 tiles. That's still more than most people will need (although my TC is up to 89 tiles, that's without the new per map tiles either)

Original v1.3D could only support up to 16 tile sets, Atomic was a bit higher I think around 30? Maybe a bit less actually. Eduke raised the limits and then I asked to raise it to the highest possible. I also got them to raise the sound limit several times, but even 4096 isn't enough for what I want to do really.

[NESfag No.3378040]

>>3376985
Honestly the EDuke32 limits are pretty high, I think it's only a problem to you because you have a thousand different weapons, characters, enemies and environments.

Ever thought releasing the next episode separate, standalone, or would that kill off the entire thing?

[Anonymous No.3378248]

>>3378040
>>3376985
What are you even doing with all this content, I want to know what this project is

[Anonymous No.3378886]

>>3378040
Nah I consider it one of the TC's strengths that the whole thing will be self-contained in 1 mod. One of the things I want for the TC is being able to go back through old levels with the newer content and stuff, it gives it a bit more replay value (that and I go back and tweak the older levels where suitable to use new features and tech so it feels more cohesive)

The whole thing is my mad swan song for Duke though which is why I've gone mad with the amount of stuff in it.

>>3378248
http://www.moddb.com/games/the-amc-tc

[Anonymous No.3381378]

>>3364572
>>3373958
>Some nobody who thinks he knows shit about good gameplay

[Anonymous No.3381380]

>>3378886
My autism gets going when looking at AMC because the guns are inexplicably mirrored

[Anonymous No.3383319]

>>3364572
>They criticize slaughter maps, but they create maps and slap monsters at random places and call it a day

....But thats precicely what slaughtermaps do. Most of them employ heavy use of copy+paste for crying out loud.

[Anonymous No.3383367]

>>3383319
>LOL FIDDY BARONS AND TWENDY MANCUBI ENJOY YOUR CHAINGUN
A lot of slaughter is just not well designed.
I much more prefer a mapset which is simply designed for difficulty in an interesting way, like Plutonia styled ones.

Also I frequently see people defend slaughter in /doom/, so opinions are clearly mixed.

[Anonymous No.3383826]

>>3381380
Yeah I know, one thing I want to fix but it's on the backburner.

[Anonymous No.3385218]

Original Doom = history.
Original Duke 3D = fun.
Build >>>>>>>>> DoomEd.
Choose your destiny.

>>3364110
>and by the time it came out everyone was getting hyped about Quake. So it didn't get as much attention as it could have.
Stop it, nigga... Duke got tons of magazine coverns and GOTYs... Jesus. TCP-IP of Id Tech 2 killed Duke 2-3 years after it. But during 96-97, both were extremely popular.

>>3359634
Nice bait. Try harder.

>>3369391
>Weapons like the shrinker and freeze gun are not effective to use
WTF am I reading?

[Anonymous No.3385570]

>>3385218
>WTF am I reading?
Yeah, that was my point, the shrinker and freezer are REALLY good weapons.

[NESfag No.3385668]

There is one thing I'd like to know.
Did DN3D have online play at launch, or did it come only through TEN with Atomic Edition?

IIRC the advert for TEN when exiting the game would only appear in Atomic Edition.

What about countries where TEN was not available?

I know DN3D was all over internet-coffee places over here, even after Quake's release. It was just more laid back and fun to play randomly with friends than Quake.

[Anonymous No.3385676]

>>3385668
probably worked on IPX like doom

[Anonymous No.3385967]

>>3385668
I'm stunned that you above anyone would ask.

Yes it did have online play, why the heck would they advertise multiplayer capabilities then? Ken also took care of the netplay code and it had quite the few improvements over doom.

You just had to setup a connection to the people you wanted to play with (ipx/modem/phone), not unlike modern ports that operate on P2P. You did that from setup.exe, not duke3d.exe, so you could conveniently choose a user map if you wanted.

TEN was probably a network guider with chat lobbies on top of being a provider service? I never tried it.

[NESfag No.3386096]

>>3385967
I didn't have an internet connection back then. I was very positive it had online from the start, but with everyone praising Quake for it, I was a little confused.

[Anonymous No.3386604]

>>3386096
You didn't need an internet connection, but I guess every game had its cost in the phone bill.

[Anonymous No.3386631]

>>3386096
im pretty sure quake is praised because it used TCP/IP first instead

[Anonymous No.3388072]

>>3385218
Original Doom is pretty fun too though, not just history, with modern ports and user content, I like it more than Duke even, but Duke stands out, it's very different from Doom and the gameplay is very fun, the levels are very different from Doom (and I'd argue that Duke had some of the best FPS level design of the 90s, along with Half-Life, Duke had amazing non-linear design, and Half-Life had very good linear design)

[Anonymous No.3389898]

Where is it?

[Anonymous No.3389929]

>>3359579
Why do doom babbies make this thread every week?

[Anonymous No.3390583]

>>3359634
The gameplay was quite good actually. Yeah, sure, as a FPS it might have been slightly average, but staying true to it's roots, as a Jump and Run with guns, it was quite awesome.

Same with the death matches: Doom and Quake might have been more adrenalin-filled, but Duke Nukem 3d was just so absurdly fun on so many levels.

[Anonymous No.3390586]

>>3385668
Worked well on our LAN parties with BNC connectors IIRC, all we had was IPX back in the day (we might have had more, we just didn't know how to set it up) .

[Anonymous No.3390621]

>>3390586
LANing Duke must have been fun.

>>3390583
I do like that Duke is very different from Doom.

One of the things I really like is how the pistol is actually pretty good, it shoots fast, has it's own ammo pool and the fact that it has a reload but it's really fast and no nonsense, allowing you to keep shooting with only a tiny pause (this is how reloading should be done for a fantastical shooter).

You can also scroll from it directly to the freezer so you can always finish enemies like that scene in Terminator 2, "Hasta LaVista"

[Anonymous No.3390875]

>>3390621
It was, especially with 12 players, jumping and gunning through all the levels, before we had 4 at max.

[NESfag No.3391969]

>>3390875
I'm pretty sure the limit is 8. Unless there is some kind of hack that allows for more, which would also mean editing the spawn points in the maps.

[Anonymous No.3392809]

>>3391969
Could have been 8 very well, Multiplayer with more than 4 players was just such a huge difference it blew our minds away and damaged my memory :)

[Anonymous No.3394851]

bumping