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File: 577 KB, 3078x860, Iteration.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3332414 No.3332414 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]

Can it really be considered "iteration" if the controllers were part of the same generation?

Are there any examples of retro game companies just stealing controllers? This would never happen nowadays.

>> No.3332439

Didn't Microsoft have a direct hand in the development of the Dreamcast? Or at least its online functionality?

>> No.3332449

>>3332439
Yes, OP has no idea what he's talking about.

>> No.3332472

>>3332439
>>3332449
I didn't know developing the Windows CE operating system for Dreamcast and then denying all of Sega's requests to work with Microsoft on the Xbox was a direct hand.

>> No.3332476

>>3332414
Did anyone ever even use the Xbox memory card
what the fuck was the point of it

>> No.3332486

>>3332476
Taking save data to a friend's house

>> No.3332490

>>3332476
Xbox Live profiles

>> No.3332497

>>3332486
I guess I never did that. I was too old. The most we did was have LAN parties with the Xbox.
>>3332490
I don't remember that either.

>> No.3332504

>>3332476
very easily turned into USB sticks

>> No.3332550

>>3332472
Then I guess you can't read? We're talking about Microsoft's design influence on Sega, not the other way around.

>> No.3332575

>>3332476
Modding your xbox.

>> No.3332581
File: 122 KB, 721x475, assholes.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3332581

>>3332414
Classic case right here

>> No.3332601

OP is just now discovering the relationship of the OG Xbox to the Dreamcast.

>> No.3332605

>>3332581
And this one was over the whole SNES CD thing

>> No.3332656

>>3332601
>>3332605
>>3332414
>>3332439
>>3332449
>>3332472
Those controllers are built very differently, underage.

>> No.3332673

>>3332581
Now post the image with literally everyone copying the dualshock format.

>> No.3332684

>>3332656
Not really. Plus it's a lot more than just the controllers that tie the Playstation to the SNES and the Xbox to the Dreamcast.

>> No.3332696

>>3332497
Only reason I knew you could carry XBL profiles was from Halo 2 LAN parties, we would sign in with our account and then jump into matches with an 8 player team all playing together in the same room. Good times.

>> No.3332705

>>3332684
>not really.
Why post when it's obvious you're underage?

One uses magnets and the other is using potentiometers.
Same with the triggers. Believe the Xbox has some rubber domes at the end of the travel of the triggers.
XBox also has built in rumble.

The controllers couldn't be much more different.

>> No.3332729

>>3332705
First, literally look with your eyes at the controller layout. Second, Isao Okawa was negotiating directly with Bill Gates for Xbox to be literally compatible with Dreamcast games but he died before the deal could be worked out. Sega and Microsoft were very close at the turn of the century. It doesn't matter that the technology within the controller was revised. It's obvious you have a very limited perspective on gaming.

>> No.3332743

>>3332729
Ask your dad to take the two controllers apart. Or legal guardian.

>> No.3332748

>>3332705
>>3332743
Are you fucking joking?
The similarities have nothing to do with "built in rumble"

They're both circular, they both have giant windows on the front, both have dual inputs on the top for peripherals, both have the same button layout, colors, and analog stick placement, same D-Pad placement, same trigger placement, same handles on the left and right form... And more.

>> No.3332752
File: 417 KB, 637x433, Screen Shot 2016-06-29 at 06.13.15.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3332752

Here are some original Xbox controller concept art.

>> No.3332754

>>3332748
>looks the same so it's the same
Can't argue that logic, champ.

>> No.3332756
File: 439 KB, 631x489, Screen Shot 2016-06-29 at 06.13.25.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3332756

>> No.3332758
File: 436 KB, 635x481, Screen Shot 2016-06-29 at 06.13.38.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3332758

>> No.3332761

>>3332414
>This would never happen nowadays
Really, so what about the Wii-Mote?

>> No.3332762
File: 419 KB, 644x480, Screen Shot 2016-06-29 at 06.13.49.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3332762

>> No.3332772

>>3332752
Any more?

>> No.3332773

>>3332754
I don't think anyone said it's the same. Just that it's a stolen design with barely any iteration.

>>3332761
What's the wii mote iterative of?

>> No.3332775

Um, originally after the Dreamcast failed, Sega and Microsoft were in talks about having Dreamcast games playable on the X-Box.
Things fell through though when neither side could compromise on an idea about online services.

>> No.3332781

>>3332773
>What's the wii mote iterative of?
It isn't, what I was saying is it was copied.
>This would never happen nowadays.
It did happen with the PS3.

>> No.3332784

>>3332773
A lot more goes into electronics then just the looks.

>> No.3332804

>>3332784
I'm fairly certain this was about the design of the controller, not the electronics inside.

>> No.3332807

>>3332752
>>3332756
>>3332758
>>3332762
Are these it? I never knew these existed.
They had a VMU and everything.

>> No.3332810

>>3332804
You think the two are separate?

>> No.3332818

>>3332810
Absolutely.
The round design, face buttons, two peripheral expansion ports, large dome window in the front of the controller, analog stick placement, etc. is crucial to the controllers designs.
The internal electronics are not physically visible.

>> No.3332823

>>3332818
The components limit how a controller can be set up.

>> No.3332827

>>3332581
This is pretty crazy.
It's never mentioned or talked about, either. It's an even more direct rip off than the Xbox controller of the Dreamcast.

>> No.3332830

>>3332823
Not sure what you're arguing about.

>> No.3332873

>>3332414
Yes, the original PlayStation controller is just a SNES controller with 2 extra buttons and handles.

>> No.3333408

>>3332752
>>3332756
>>3332758
>>3332762
My hands are bleeding just from looking at this, holy shit.

>> No.3333427

>>3333408
how so? These designs are pretty ergonomic

>> No.3333447
File: 102 KB, 630x744, Capture.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3333447

>>3333408
Look at the bottom left controller here.

>> No.3333450

>>3333447
the width is good for a more comfortable hand position (same reason the xbox controller is huge), the asymmetric design is because the left side has two playable positions, the right side only has one.

>> No.3333463

>>3333447
Has anyone translated this?

>> No.3333468

>>3333463
it was probably written in Japanese right away

>> No.3333493

>>3332414
>Can it really be considered "iteration" if the controllers were part of the same generation?

Did it come out later? Then yes, it can be considered an iteration. Otherwise the PS1 normal pad, analog pad, rumble pad, and dual shock, are not iterations either, even though they clearly are.

>> No.3333498

>>3333447
There's also a patent that describes how to add things like gyroscope, motion detection, and microphones to the Saturn Analog pad, which had a detachable cord.

>> No.3333519

>>3333493
No. The Dreamcast was discontinued the year the Xbox was launched, so it did not come out later.

>> No.3333540
File: 59 KB, 749x613, great bait approaching fast.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3333540

>>3333519
Nice bait.

>> No.3333543

>>3333540
I don't get how that's bait

>> No.3333590

>>3333447
if it's true ... I don't understand at all why Sega have never put second joystick

>> No.3333595

>>3333447
That top left controller looks like a Genesis controller.

>> No.3333598

>>3333543
He's just dumb and wanted to use his /vr/ related bait macro

>>3332823
>>3332784
>>3332743
>>3332754
This guy is a much more profound kind of idiot - deeply convinced that controllers are designed any other way than from the outside in with the ergonomics taking top priority and then the pleb engineers (which he likely fancies himself) being directed to fit the best available technology inside the design.

>> No.3333625

>>3332581
And yet the PSX pad was 10x better.

>> No.3333742

>>3333598
Yeah, I have no idea what the fuck that guy was talking about. Pulling out "kid" and "legal guardian" shit didn't even have anything to do with anything.

>> No.3333760

>>3333543
>I don't get how that's bait

He said that xbox did not come out later because it was launched when the Dreamcast was discontinued.

>> No.3333762

>>3333760
But that has nothing to do with the discussion of iteration.

If you release a controller that's the same, except with an extra analog stick and the Xbox logo at the same time the other consoles still active, it's not really "later"

Look at these early concepts even
>>3332752
>>3332756
>>3332758
>>3332762

>> No.3333764

>>3333742
>Pulling out "kid" and "legal guardian" shit didn't even have anything to do with anything
it's a tired /vr/ meme where everybody but yourself is 18 years or younger, and clueless

>> No.3333768

>>3333764
That's shit I'd expect from /b/

>> No.3333769

>>3333762
>it's not really "later"
it's "later" if the initial release of that controller happens after the initial release of the other controller. At that point it's possible the design of the latter was inspired or based on the design of and experience with the former

>> No.3333775

>>3333768
it's annoyingly common here, unfortunately. Some kind of elitism thing. Best you can do is overlook it. It's usually not worth the time to counter them, and they'll just accuse you of lying anyway.

>> No.3333785

>>3333769
That's not the point.
It doesn't matter when it occurs if it's released in the same life cycle and is nearly identical aside from basic structure.

>> No.3333787

>>3333785
you're probably on your own with that position. If it makes you feel better though, thumbs up

>> No.3333827

>>3333625
The d-pad was shit. It was shit back in 1994 and it remained shit until at least the DualShock 3, the last one I used.. Also the handles were disliked by some people, myself included. Wide and shallow is meh. Felt like I was holding an old NES Max controller. Other than that is was an SNES controller with an extra set of shoulder buttons. It wasn't until they added analog sticks and rumble in 1997 that it actually got better than a controller released in 1991.

>> No.3333830

>>3333787
Ah, okay. So I'm on my own in believing a console can release a duplicate controller of another console, during that consoles lifespan, with a different logo and it's just an "homage"

>> No.3333832

>>3333787
>Sony: Boy, I really like the N64 controller
>Sony: Let me just take the form of it and put the Playstation logo on it real large, and change the shape of the buttons.

>Sony: I-it's inspired by the N64 Controller, not a rip off.

>> No.3333834

>>3333830
>it's just an "homage"
People are telling you it's an iteration, a design strongly based on an older design, altered to fit changed preferences and experience gathered from the other controllers.

>> No.3333857
File: 45 KB, 524x600, 524px-Sega-Saturn-3D-Controller[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3333857

I'll just leave this here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PThsbn1bCFU

Its from 1996 and is basically the basis of the Dreamcast controller.

>> No.3333858

>>3333832
Uh dude I think you mean the SNES controller.

>> No.3333882

>>3333857
Why does everyone love Classic Game Room so much? It's some old guy trying to sound hip or funny/cool and he never says anything useful. He gets paid 10,000 a month for this shit?

>> No.3333889

>>3333882
It's down to like, 8,500 now. But yeah, for a few months it was over 10,000 dollars.

>> No.3333905

>>3333762
>If you release a controller that's the same, except with an extra analog stick and the Xbox logo at the same time the other consoles still active, it's not really "later"

Dreamcast pad: 1998
Xbox pad: 2001

Are you saying that 2001 did not come later than 1998?

>> No.3333913

>>3333857
but the Saturn was discontinued when the Dreamcast launched in japan, meaning that it happened in the same life cycle! It's the same pad with 2 less buttons and a VMU slot, it can't have happened "later"!!

>> No.3333931

>>3333913
>meaning that it happened in the same life cycle!
What?

>it can't have happened "later"!!
What?

>> No.3333963
File: 16 KB, 500x365, 41jK+TGzztL.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3333963

>>3332414
I know this isn't part of the same generation, but all I see here is a chinese knock off of an Xbox 360 controller. It's almost like Nintendo thought they could get away with switching analog stick positions and symmetry and no one would notice. What's shocking is the "triggers" aren't even triggers. If I recall correctly from the one time I used it, they were just digital shoulder buttons.

>> No.3333974

>>3333963
>get away with
why is everyone treating it like stealing, when any of the manufacturers is taking a design they consider useful, and adjusting it to their needs? Shit's not protected, shouldn't be protected, and we as players end up with good controllers, instead of stuff that's different for the sake of being different

>> No.3334003

>>3332414
of course its an iteration, its a new version of a piece of hardware created by making improvements over the previous version

>> No.3334015

>>3332414
ITT: people that don't know the definition of the word iteration

>> No.3334063

>>3333974
It makes sense to have every modern controller be similar. More games are ported straight to each system. Exclusives are rare.

Nintendo probably learned their lesson and wants to make it easy for devs to port their games to their system.

>> No.3334081

>>3334063
it makes sense to learn from each other. The current grip shape has almost 2 decades of public testing behind it, and people are used to it. It has very little to do with porting and a lot to do with familiarity and the setup simply working well. You'll notice that there are still differences in the layout of the components, the way triggers function, etc. That's because different companies came to different conclusions in their field testing. It contradicts the concept of a standardized layout for portability

>> No.3334085

>>3333931
see
>>3333760

>> No.3334119

>>3334085
How can something from 1996 not predate something from 1999 and 2001?

>> No.3334180

>>3333905
Did you not see this thread
The guys at Xbox were clearly designing controllers in 1998-1999

>> No.3334227

>>3333598
>>3333742
>>3333764
Listen kids. If you honestly think the determining factor for a controller is the looks alone you're just that. Children.

>> No.3334425

>>3334227
No one here said the determining factor for a controller is looks alone.
You're the only one trying to twist what's being said in order to call people kids.

>> No.3334431

>>3334425
Stop
Go look up what "iteration" means.
Don't come back.

>> No.3334473

>>3334431
Okay.
>the repetition of a process or utterance.
>a new version of a piece of computer hardware or software.

>> No.3334475

>>3334431
The Xbox controller is often cited as an iteration or of the Dreamcast controller. An evolutionary step.

The OP is saying that it's not an iteration. It's just a fucking stolen controller layout rebranded with Microsoft.

What the fuck are you going on about?

>> No.3334489

>>3334475
Last I checked Dreamcast had
1 stick
symmetrical dpad
cross shaped dpad
wire at the bottom
... it keeps going. So from a looks perspective you're still young and dumb.

Even the buttons are different colors.

You kids are beyond dumb. Tablet generation I guess.

>> No.3334502
File: 34 KB, 420x297, saturn_dc_controllers.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3334502

it bugs me why they didn't keep the 6 button from the 3D controller.

>> No.3334504

>>3333974
because this is /vr/, where if you don't identify with a larger group established by a corporation your life is meaningless

>> No.3334507

>>3334489
>1 stick
>dpad
>Wire at the bottom

>it keeps going

It keeps going?

Please, keep listing off differences. I'm waiting.

Meanwhile,
>Same analog stick placement
>Same d-pad placement
>Same two expansion ports on the top of the controller
>Same giant window on the front of the controller, on Xbox controller it serves no function, on Dreamcast it shows the VMU logo, which can display the Sega logo
>Same letter buttons
>Same button layout
>Same color of buttons, just in a different combo
>Same start/select location
>Same hand grip shape
>Same round face design
>Same trigger placement
>Similarly recessed triggers

>> No.3334513

>>3334502
They felt the casual audience thought 6 buttons was too many, and 6 buttons was more for hardcore fighting game people.

They incorporated a lot of d-pad directions into fighting games to make up for the lack of the extra two face buttons.

>> No.3334518

>>3334489
>You kids are beyond dumb
You listed 1 difference and then rambled about d-pads, which made no sense.

You're the only one who looks dumb.

>> No.3334540

>>3334518
>>3334507
>Same analog stick placement
Sorry but no kid. Simple fact being the Xbox has twice as many sticks.
>Same d-pad placement
Sorry again kiddo. Simple fact being the dpads are different shapes. I guess if your argument is is the general location. In which case that can be said about virtually any controller.
>Same two expansion ports on the top of the controller
Nope kid. The Dreamcast had very different peripherals for the two expansions
Xbox was pretty much limited to memory cards. And I think the hedset connected to the controller.
>Same giant window on the front of the controller, on Xbox controller it serves no function, on Dreamcast it shows the VMU logo, which can display the Sega logo
There’s no window on an xbox controller. Unless you’re confusing the logo for a window?
>Same letter buttons
Same as Nintendo too. Wow!
>Same button layout
Same as Nintendo too. Wow!
>Same color of buttons, just in a different combo
Same as Nintendo too. Wow! (Super famicom)
>Same start/select location
Dreamcast has no select button, champ.
>Same hand grip shape
Not even close, champ.
>Same round face design
No idea what that means.
>Same trigger placement
Same as every mainstream controller ever.
>Similarly recessed triggers
Same as every mainstream controller ever.

Differences:
1 stick
symmetrical dpad
cross shaped dpad
wire at the bottom
symmetrical 4 buttons
different color scheme
only START button no select
convex stick
no rumble built in

and more kiddos.

>> No.3334565

>>3334540
>kid
>kiddo
>kiddos
>responds to everything with a shitpost and Wow!
I'm so tired of these low quality shitposts.

>> No.3334569

>>3334565

"kid" and "kiddo" need to be instant bans, or at least wordfiltered

>> No.3334579
File: 209 KB, 1340x754, controller.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3334579

>>3334569
Kid, kiddo, champ and the other pet names that these shitposters keep using should at least be word filtered.

If someone using those words legitimately had a good point, I'd ignore it. But this guy has been at it for a while posting nothing but stupid bullshit

>Here's the similarities between the Dreamcast and Xbox controller design

>WOW! JUST LIKE NINTENDO, KIDDO, CHAMP!!!

>Same grip? NOT EVEN CLOSE, KIDDO.

>> No.3334581

>>3334540
Imagine being this guy for the rest of your life

>> No.3334591

>>3334579
>I never held these controllers in my life
>but here's these google pics
Ok kid.

>> No.3334592

>>3334579
Listen kid, I'm insecure about my argument so I'm going to pretend I'm talking to a highschooler to make myself feel bigger.

>> No.3334596
File: 146 KB, 926x500, photo guide.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3334596

>>3334540
>Same round face design
>No idea what that means.

Autism often starts with being unable to comprehend basic shapes.

I've helped you in this photo guide.

>> No.3334606

>>3334591
>I'm unable to refute the fact the grips are molded similarly, so I'll just say something clever to this kid
>I've ruined his argument, haha.

>> No.3334616

>>3334606
Sorry kid. I've owned these controllers since they came out. They aren't similar.

>> No.3334620
File: 159 KB, 926x500, photo guide 2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3334620

>>3334616
>Don't call me or my controller similar ever again.

>> No.3334625

>>3334596
>>3334620
I don't think your Mom would be all to happy with you when I tell her you haven't been taking your autism pills.

>> No.3334868

>>3334513
I thought it was because the VMU slots took so much space they had to rid of two of the buttons.

>> No.3335180

>>3332486
>playing Burnout 3
>unlock every car and track
>'this file cannot be copied'

>playing DOAX
>unlock a bunch of swimsuits
>'this file cannot be copied'

Waste of money.

>> No.3335202
File: 120 KB, 1024x1057, 1024px-Atari-2600-Joystick[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335202

On the one hand, yeah, the Xbox and Dreamcast gamepads are pretty similar. Why MS would copy a design from a failed console maker, I don't know. On the other hand everyone was copying everyone. Outside of a few outliers whose influence is questionable (Fairchild Channel F, Radofin 1292, etc.) there are basically only two branches of the gamepad family tree:

Atari VCS/2600 descendant controllers and NES descendant controllers

The former is a dead branch. Picture related. The mainstream 'controller with a full sized joystick', which borrowed its design from arcades, died out in the 80s. To be clear, I'm not talking thumbsticks. There have been official and 3rd party versions since but I don't know of a single major console that shipped with one as the default since the Atari 7800.*

*The Neo Geo controller is a different beast. It is not a gamepad. You don't hold it in your hands when you play. It is what modern shitheads have labeled a 'fightstick'.

Other controllers, like the Vectrex, never had much influence on the market. No one copied them. There have been many variations of the Atari type of gamepad. Some used joysticks that are held in the hand, others with just the tips of your fingers. They all descended from the VCS controller and its immediate successors. Just look at time lines of console releases from 1976 to about 1986 and you will see its legacy.

>> No.3335205

>>3334868
Nope.

>> No.3335208
File: 3.52 MB, 3721x1870, NES-Controller-Flat[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335208

>>3335202
Then along comes the NES gamepad. Every major system on the market today, even portables, can have its gamepad traced back to this controller. No exceptions.

The NES launched in Japan in 1983 and it brought over the D-pad from the 'Game and Watch' Donkey Kong portable. The D-pad was needed because they had to have full two dimensional control for the game but couldn't fit a joystick inside a clamshell case. Necessity is the mother of invention. Gunpei Yokoi designed it and later the Gameboy, the first successful 'portable console' that could play cartridges. In addition he mentored Miyamoto, helped to design Donkey Kong, co-designed Mario Bros, and designed Metroid. He is basically one of the corner stones of video games.

How influential was the NES gamepad? When the third generation Sega SG-1000 launched in 1983 its controller looked a lot like a lot of other controllers from the second and third generation. Nothing special. By the time its first revision hit the street only a year later the controller was basically the only non-cosmetic change made. They copied the layout of the NES gamepad and ditched the joystick for a primitive thumbstick. Why not copy the D-pad though? Because Nintendo had invented it and had a PATENT on the technology. It took them a few years to figure out a non-infringing way to copy it for the Mark III/Master System (which was just an improved SG-1000). Every major console from the 4th generation except the Neo Geo launched with a D-pad on its controller. Even the portables. Enough said.

>> No.3335214

>>3334625
Is this guy just shitposting/trolling?
I read the chain, and he legitimately just looks like he's either confused or trolling.

>> No.3335218
File: 2.73 MB, 3700x2080, Super-Famicom-Controller[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335218

>>3335208
What was the most influential controller of the fourth generation? The SNES gamepad. It too was a game changer. It forced Sega to redesign their gamepad mid release cycle AGAIN to remain competitive. It was copied by Sony for the Playstation and that has only seen evolutionary changes since on that console. Again, this is a ‘no exceptions’ example and needs no further explanation.

>> No.3335223

>>3335202
>Why MS would copy a design from a failed console maker, I don't know
could have stopped your rambling right there

>everyone was copying everyone
or there

>> No.3335226

>>3335223
>stop discussing something
You can go.

>> No.3335227

>>3333889
>>3333882
I think CGR was at least marginally better before. When that "before" was, I dunno. Back in the early 2000s? Mark's never really been that great at actually reviewing stuff. Maybe showcasing it at best.

>> No.3335231
File: 1.30 MB, 2620x2280, PSX-Original-Controller[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335231

>>3335218
Once we hit the fifth generation though things get more muddied. 1994 was a big year. The PlayStation launches with an SNES knockoff controller, pic related. It put some handles on it and added extra shoulder buttons but it is clearly just an evolution of the SNES gamepad. The Saturn launches with an improved version of the 6 button Genesis controller. It now featured shoulder buttons. Again, it was clearly an evolution of the previous generation. Both are just improved versions of Nintendo originals.

1996 is another big year. The N64 launches and its controller is equal parts genius and madness. It saw some simple changes. A single trigger button replaces the shoulder buttons. The select button is dropped. X and Y are replaced with 4 C buttons. It has an expansion port. It’s different but nothing too revolutionary on paper. The significant changes were the three fat dongs for handles and its thumbstick. The thumbstick was brilliant. The overall shape was lunacy. It was an evolutionary dead end.

A month later the Saturn 3D gamepad launches with NiGHTS. This is probably the most influential controller of its generation. That’s not saying a whole lot though. While it clearly formed the basis of the Dreamcast controller it was ignored by Sony and Nintendo. While the original Xbox controller is influenced by it I think that was more to do with them not wanting to copy Sony’s DualShock or Nintendo’s monstrosity then it being the more superior design.

Sony launches the Dual Analog in early 1997. It’s their first gamepad to feature analog thumbsticks and has a simple rumble feature in the Japanese edition. It’s a clear improvement but is replaced later that same year with the DualShock. The DualShock is the king of controllers from the fifth generation. Improved dual thumbs sticks with buttons, dual rumble motors (because 2 > 1), and slightly improved shoulder buttons all built on top of the SNES controller’s solid foundations.

>> No.3335234

>>3335226
>stop discussing something
more like, don't bother rambling if you know fuckall

>> No.3335240
File: 2.20 MB, 1800x1400, GameCube_controller[1].png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335240

>>3335231
The sixth generation was more of the same. First out of the gate in 1999 was the Dreamcast gamepad. It was the Saturn 3D controller with a different shell and expansion slots cribbed from the N64 controller. The VMU, while an evolutionary dead end, was its major innovation. While the controller had some interesting expansion capabilities with the VMU, rumble packs, microphones, etc., Sega hadn’t learned what Nintendo had; that expansions slots on your controller weren’t that great of an idea.

Then in 2000 along came Sony with the DualShock 2. It was the original DualShock with analog buttons. Nothing more. No surprises but still the best controller of its generation, though that lead was lessening.

Finally Nintendo and Microsoft join the race. Nintendo surprises everyone by releasing a surprising good controller. It has a sensible shell, built in rumble, a good primary thumbstick and well executed analog triggers. The button layout was good, but not as good as the standard diamond layout they pioneered with the SNES gamepad. The second analog ‘c-stick’ was disappointing. The D-pad was almost vestigial and much too small. While the triggers were analog the rest of the buttons were not. That was a lost opportunity.

>> No.3335242

>>3335227
He's not good at anything on Youtube. He just uses some artificially deep voice and makes really cringeworthy comments that aren't funny. His constant pauses and strange diction like a news caster or something are really off, as well. It always hits me like he's trying really hard to be "cool" and "smooth" like he's making jokes and just so sarcastic and laid back/chill. I just couldn't imagine someone making like, Windows Movie Maker tier videos was getting paid 10,000 a month. How stupid can people get.

>> No.3335246
File: 136 KB, 985x438, XboxOriginalController[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335246

>>3335240

The original Xbox controller was a joke. They took the best aspects of Sega’s design but said we’ll also keep the shitty bits too thank you very much. The shell was like a Dreamcast controller that had gotten fat in the off season. It was large but also bloated. The core button layout was not ideal either. They also failed to learn from Nintendo by putting ports on the controller but kicked it up a notch by added two smaller ‘black and white’ buttons below the standard diamond. The 4 small C buttons from the N64 were not a good idea. Having only two of them did not change that. The D-pad was one of the worst to be featured on a major console. The right analog stick was also a dud.

The Xbox S controller was an improvement. They fixed the diamond button layout and placed the black and white buttons in a more sensible position. The D-pad and right analog stick saw upgrades and the size and shape overall were finally useable. It was still not a great controller. Good, sure, but not DualShock 2 good. The black and white buttons were still undersized. For some reason they also moved the start and back buttons to a non-standard location. You could argue that it was better than the GameCube controller but it was also a replacement that superseded the original a year later in non-Japanese territories. They had to call in the Japanese model because the original was so terrible.

I’m not going to cover the seventh and eighth generations. Too many changes, too many different controllers and such. Plus were can all see where the influences come from pretty easily now.

>> No.3335250

>>3335246
>The original Xbox controller was a joke.

I liked it.

>> No.3335259

>>3335250
It was easily the worst controller of the generation but that was also by the standards of that generation. If it had been released in 1994-1996 it probably would have gotten cut more slack. It was usable. That is more than you can say for some controllers of the 2-4th generations.

>> No.3335261
File: 591 KB, 2250x3379, zhsx3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335261

In case you don't want to read that dude posting like, 50 paragraphs, here you go.

>> No.3335271

>>3335261
after the fuckups in the first couple lines it became a perfect tl;dr for me. Just hid the posts so they don't waste space.

By the way, your pic is missing quite a few non-console controllers

>> No.3335275

>>3335202
Vectrex launched the analog stick.
>>3335208
NES was not the first to have a d-pad.
>>3335231
Nothing was really muddied in the 5th gen.
>>3335240
The expansion slots weren't "cribbed" from the N64 controller. The Saturn 3D pad had planned expansions and the cord could be removed to make room for peripherals like the Dreamcast pad.
>>3335246
Microsoft was highly influenced by their sidewinder controllers, which you failed to mention.

>> No.3335276

>>3335275
I love you

>> No.3335281

>>3335276
what

>> No.3335284
File: 18 KB, 360x359, Sidewinder_gamepad.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335284

This is the Xbox S controllers grandfather.
You can see that Microsoft took inspiration from this as well as the Dreamcast controller in it's final controller design.

>> No.3335285

>>3332581
So, how would you have designed a controller differently? All modern controllers have two sticks, four face buttons, select, start, bumpers, triggers, and a d-pad. How did you want all this shit arranged to be different from Nintendo?

Sega had some controllers with a ton of buttons on the face, but other than that, it's all going to be the same fucking thing. The only retards to try and re-invent the wheel were Nintendo themselves, with their N64 abomination, wagglan, and later iPad controllers.

Also, don't pretend that the handles don't make a huge fucking difference in comfort, and that Nintendo had triggers.

>> No.3335287
File: 39 KB, 800x533, 18j1i9otcqgg1jpg.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335287

>>3335285
>So, how would you have designed a controller differently? All modern controllers have two sticks, four face buttons, select, start, bumpers, triggers, and a d-pad. How did you want all this shit arranged to be different from Nintendo?

>> No.3335292
File: 39 KB, 800x533, 18j1i9otdpdh4jpg.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335292

>> No.3335294

>>3334502
Shit, I wish modern controllers packed 6 face buttons. I've always wanted more buttons. 4 is just quite not enough.

>> No.3335296

>>3332581
>putting gaps in the D-pad
Why the FUCK did they do that?

Makes me hate the PS controllers.

>> No.3335297
File: 36 KB, 800x533, 18j1i9otgkzf3jpg.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335297

>> No.3335301

>>3335287
>>3335292
that looks like the most uncomfortable dpad

>> No.3335302
File: 37 KB, 800x533, 18j1i9srbumi2jpg.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335302

>>3335301

>> No.3335303

>>3335246
But the original Xbox controller is more comfortable than any other I've used. I never had a problem using the black and white buttons, or the right stick. The controller S was a downgrade.

>> No.3335305
File: 29 KB, 636x358, 18j1wddgp28cmjpg.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335305

>>3335296

>> No.3335306
File: 49 KB, 500x491, Neat.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335306

>Black Dreamcast controller

>> No.3335308

>>3333540
This image doesn't make sense. The fish isn't the bait, so the Darius ship should be in the fish's place looking at bait.

>> No.3335309

>>3335287
That looks like the same shit though, except jutting out past the handles.

Granted, I wish they'd gone with 6 buttons. 4 buttons is pretty shitty across all controllers.

>> No.3335310

>>3335302
I like this one.

>> No.3335315
File: 3.92 MB, 5940x2660, Nuon-N2000-wController-L.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335315

>>3335284
hey wuts goin on microodsf lol
that is cool fontroller u got there... dont mind if i do... heh heh...
>goes bankrupt

>> No.3335326
File: 73 KB, 1024x721, Z0065073[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335326

>>3335275
>Vectrex launched the analog stick.
Incorrect. 1292 Advanced Programmable Video System had it in 1976. The Atari 5200 also had one and it launched the same month the Vectrex did. Although the Vectrex was a better one.

>NES was not the first to have a d-pad.
It was the first home console it have a D-pad. The Game and Watch had one before it but they were portable.I covered this.

>The expansion slots weren't "cribbed" from the N64 controller.
In the end though none of that stuff was put into the 3D controller. I'm sure if you were just talking about stuff that never left R&D everyone invented everything 10 years before anyone else.

>Microsoft was highly influenced by their sidewinder controllers, which you failed to mention.
Which were influenced by console controllers. The original Sidewinder gamepads looked like late Genesis and Saturn gamepad knock offs. I think the original Xbox controller has more genes in it from Sega than from Microsoft's PC peripheral division.

>> No.3335335
File: 36 KB, 800x450, 18j1wdbhrmkb4jpg.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335335

>>3335326
>Incorrect

During that same year, General Consumer Electronics introduced the Vectrex, a vector graphics based system which used a self-centering analog stick, a precursor to the modern design.

>It was the first home console it have a D-pad.

A precursor to the D-pad also appeared on Entex's short lived "Select A Game" cartridge based handheld system; it featured non-connected raised left, right, up and down buttons aligned to the left of a row of action buttons. A controller similar to the D-pad appeared in 1981 on a handheld game system: Cosmic Hunter on Milton Bradley's Microvision; it was operated using the thumb to manipulate the onscreen character in one of four directions.

>In the end though none of that stuff was put into the 3D controller.

>Controller includes a port for peripherals

>Peripherals aren't released
>Port somehow ceases to exist now

>> No.3335343

>>3335302
Now that just looks even more like SNES controller.

>> No.3335349
File: 41 KB, 629x508, 56467657756.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335349

>>3333857
did it eat a walkman?

>> No.3335361
File: 1.97 MB, 3680x1980, Acetronic-MPU-1000[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335361

>>3335335
>used a self-centering analog stick.
That is true. It was not the first though. I was wrong to say 'incorrect'. But my original statement still stands.

>A precursor to the D-pad also appeared on Entex's short lived "Select A Game" cartridge based handheld system;
A precursor, yes. It was 4 buttons arranged in a cross. Keyboards had stuff like that too back in the 70's. Its not quite a D-pad though. Just like the pad on the SG-1000 Mark II wasn't quite a thumbstick.

>>Controller includes a port for peripherals
>>Peripherals aren't released
>>Port somehow ceases to exist now
Pardon me, but I have never held one in my hands in real life. Consider me corrected. Do you happen to have a picture of the port? I have never seen it.

>> No.3335364
File: 33 KB, 597x396, Original-Nintendo-64.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335364

>>3335343
the N64 took that button layout, and replaced it with the C buttons and the A and B button.

>> No.3335367
File: 296 KB, 616x587, Cosmic Hunter_001.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335367

>>3335361
>Conveniently leaves out the Microvision

>> No.3335369

>>3335259
>It was easily the worst controller of the generation
Yea sorry no. I'm sure you'll try to defend it but the NGC controller was an absolute fucking joke with insane button sizes and shapes for no fucking reason.

>> No.3335373
File: 156 KB, 1249x695, Expansion.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335373

>>3335361
>Pardon me, but I have never held one in my hands in real life. Consider me corrected. Do you happen to have a picture of the port? I have never seen it.

At least you are willing to be corrected and accept that you have a lot to learn about controllers.

>> No.3335382

>>3335367
It was a number pad with an overlay placed on it. Its different technology. Its not a true D-pad. It was awful to boot.

>> No.3335402

>>3335382
I dunno what you define as "not a true d-pad"

>> No.3335426
File: 236 KB, 502x421, control pad back.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335426

>>3335402
This is a D-pad.

https://www.google.com/patents/US4687200

Picture related is the back of Microvision's console pads. They are all the same. Its just that different games had different cutouts to allow the different 'buttons' to be pressed. If I put a plastic cross over a chiclet keyboard it wouldn't make it a D-pad. Thats what this was.

>> No.3335427

>>3335426
Yeah, but that doesn't mean like... It's not a D-Pad.

>> No.3335443
File: 650 KB, 511x785, remote.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335443

>>3335427
It doesn't function like a D-pad. Its 5 buttons (yes, 5, not 4) with a giant cutout and some plastic over it. You can't put your thumb in the middle and rock it up and down, left and right, to 'hit' the buttons. Picture related is basically the same technology and no one sane would call that a D-pad in the middle of it.

>> No.3335446

>>3335443
But you could put your thumb in the middle.

>> No.3335450
File: 7 KB, 236x236, 7e871585c3bfcffd78b50f81abb415c3[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335450

>>3335446

>> No.3335452

>>3335450
How is that bait?

>> No.3335453

>>3335443
>>3335450
First of all dude, you're an idiot who got fucked over on your long rambling controller posts.

Secondly, the "center" not being able to be rocked has nothing to do with what a DIRECTIONAL PAD was about. To qualify as a D-PAD, all you need to be able to do is push up, down, left, and right. If you push down in the middle of a traditional D-PAD, nothing will happen. So quit trying to weasel your way around it.

Cosmic Hunter had the D-Pad. Fuck off with this nonsense.

>> No.3335456
File: 39 KB, 450x438, d-pad.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335456

>>3335443
>>3335450


>>3335453
I just wanted to add to this anon's post and say that means the PlayStation 1 didn't have a D-Pad either.

Your made up and arbitrary descriptions are just making you look stupid at this point.

>> No.3335479

This thread is really special.
There are now multiple examples of shitposters going off on random tangents and ramblings with no idea what they're talking about, and both using bait images inappropriately after moving the goalposts and not even understanding the original argument to begin with.

>> No.3335481

>>3335479
If one was totally clueless about controllers and were to take away anything from this, they might come away with thinking
>The Xbox controller in no way, shape or form, resemble the Dreamcast controller
and
>A D-PAD has to be able to be rocked from the middle or it's not a D-PAD

As well as general misunderstandings about controllers overall.

>> No.3335483

>>3335479
It's not special.
Just people coming in thinking they know everything and being proven wrong quickly, so they post meme images or start calling people kids as responses. You'd think people would want to discuss their ideas and change their thoughts instead of just trying to tell everyone else why they are the only ones who can possibly be right.

>> No.3335513

>>3335369
Everyone will defend the GC controller in "pro" scenes. It is one of the few controllers that for 2d games the joystick is acceptable. The notches for the stick made joystick movements more accurate.

Otherwise you are left with a SNES controller or X1 controller (since the X1 is the only dpad with actual tactical feedback).

>> No.3335515
File: 2.31 MB, 5184x3456, 6yPnsSa[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335515

>>3335456
The PlayStation controller's D-pad is connected under the shell, just like a normal D-pad. It also, like other D-pads, sits on a rubber mat with contacts in it to complete the circuits of each direction when pressed. While the exterior looks different from other D-pads of the era it is still a standard D-pad inside. Picture related.

Cosmic Hunter did not have a D-pad. The main unit had a control grid that was 3 columns by four rows. It was like the number pad on a telephone. Inside the machine is a pressure sensitive pad, like a chiclet keyboard. Over the top of this the the different games would place a grid of 'keys'. See >>3335426. This grid was the same for all games. Some would just be fixed and unusable while others would be mobile. That part varied from game to game.

All Cosmic Hunter did was put a large overlay on the bottom 3x3 area of the control grid. Under that overlay there were still 9 buttons. The corners were fixed so they wouldn't move while the ones in the center were mobile. It is literally no different then putting a scrap of plastic over your keyboards numpad and calling it a D-pad. There is no rubber mat, no contacts, nothing of the standard D-pad technology. Believe it. If Cosmic Hunter would have been any kind of useful prior art you know Sega or Atari would have been all over it like white on rice to get Nintendo's patent overturned.

>> No.3335597

>>3332414
You can consider it whatever word you want in your made up autist world where words mean whatever you want instead of what the dictionary says.

>> No.3335604

>>3335335
>>3335373
Detachable cable =/= port

The underage is real.

>> No.3335606

>>3332476
We bought one with the console when the system launched and I saved all my data to it.

That was before I had any real concept of how big the internal drive was. It was just a thing you did around that time, it was the expected norm to use memory cards. Hard habit to break.

Now ask me the same thing about the 360 memory cards and I would change my tune.

>> No.3335617

>>3335261
I think that just about says it all.

Just as an aside, the Wii-Mote kinda reminded me of the Sega Bass Fishing rod/controller form the Dreamcast.

>> No.3335624

>>3335369
The NGC controller shits all over the OG Xbox controller in terms of functionality and ergonomics. Claiming anything else is just fanboyism.

>> No.3335661
File: 70 KB, 400x388, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3335661

>>3335624
>NGC

>> No.3337025

>>3335624
What's an NGC?

>> No.3337148

>>3337025
Neo Geo (pocket) Color

>> No.3337246

>>3335604
The 3D Control Pad is one of Sega's most significant video game controllers, with Sega filing a patent covering a number of possible extensions to the design, achieved through the port at the top of the controller.

Covered ideas include wireless connections to the console (and light gun-style support), extra joysticks and trackballs, memory cards, a second display, clocks, a curious rotatable stand, and motion control.

Vibration feedback is also considered which may pre-date attempts by Nintendo.

>> No.3337579

>>3335246
Confirmed for shit tastes.

Doesn't like the super-comfortable Duke. Thinks the S controller isn't good. Doesn't think Gamecube is top-tier. And worst of all thinks Dualshock is anything better than garbage.

>> No.3337647

>>3337579
That guy got BTFO'd last night.

>> No.3337664

>>3337246
I was going to jump down that guy's throat earlier but it slipped my mind. Obviously a detachable cable requires a port to be plugged into.

>> No.3337669

>>3337246
>>3337664
And none of that was ever made.

Making a big stretch to call a wireless adapter an expansion also.

>> No.3339119

>>3337669
>my dad works for sega and told me everything they ever made
Sure thing kiddo

>> No.3339591

>>3337669
Nice try, dumbass.

>> No.3339602
File: 131 KB, 1920x1080, v0sPD4b.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
3339602

>>3339119
>>3339591
Here's a list of officially released "expansion" peripherals for the SEGA Saturn.
>

>> No.3339610

>>3339602
The person said that the Saturn 3D Control Pad didn't have a port.

It doesn't matter whether or not anything was released for the port.

>> No.3339640

>>3339610
It's a detectable cord. Not a port.

>> No.3339835

>>3339602
>made = officially released
Are you backpeddling now or just retarded? You prove yourself more and more of a dumb fuck with each post

>Here's a list
>no list
More and more of a dumb fuck with each post

>> No.3339839

>>3332752
why are these all so homoerotic?

>> No.3339853

>>3339835
Please show me what went in that "expansion slot"?

>> No.3340525

>>3339853
What expansion slot are you talking about sport? Not going to sort through the whole thread looking for it just because you can't keep track of who you're replying to.

>> No.3340862

>>3340525
Nice attempt at back pedaling there. Confirmed underage.

>> No.3341776

>>3340862
Top kek kid. It's not back peddling if I never said it. If you had anything to back up your argument you could have simply pointed out what you're talking about.
Thanks for confirming your age though.

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